This is crazy! Even Orwell could not have dreamed of this kind of "Big Brother" mentality. This government is out of control ! Before they fingerprint all of us, remove our DNA, build huge databases that will leak our most intimate and personal data out like a leaking sieve, this power and control mad government will not stop. There are other ways to control and prevent terrorism, this is not it!

If these measures are being introduced in response to citizens' demands, the question arises why the same citizens are not demanding them at railway stations. The government's response is, as ever, incompetent and haphazard. These last resort measures are necessary because of the failure in policy which created the opportunity for the threat. Who implemented the policies ? The government. Who bares the brunt of the restriction ? The citizens.

I am beginning to get very uncomfortable with this so called government, will the elections(sooner the better) be called off because the 'terror threat' is too high?

If the same level of commitment for the introduction of biometrics (i.d. cards by another name) was applied to any of the real problems facing us in healthcare, education, transport, law and order,decent public housing etc. we might all find ourselves just a bit better off.

Don't see much point in having biometeric data for a suicidal terrorist. It's not as if he/she is going to do it more than once!!

Ban Package holidays !! Don't let them check our DNA !!! Terror threat too high..Boom..Ooops !!

Lets have ID Cards....DNA at birth.... fingerprinting and any other means of identifying us for the rest of our lives.

Only 2 types of people don't want controls..Criminals
and "Do Gooders" who think their Human rights are above everything else.

The detection of Illegal immigrants in this Country would be more controlable (not removed) crime, including murder would be resolved much quicker and criminals would perhaps be detered more than at present. Even small things down to buying booze and cigarettes at the supermarket, having age checks would be eased.

People all over the World have ID controls of various descriptions and it helps controls within the Countries.

If you've got nothing to hide then lets have all the controls possible.

Now if it was "who pays for these controls" then that's a different matter!!!!

Our first step in dealing with terrorism, is to dispose of Tony Blair. whose war in Iraq still lingers on.

I'll give you the second step after you have done that.

By all means let us have a secure system of checking in passengers. But lets remind ourselves that the present world situation has been brought about by Bush and Blair, and the do gooders over the years who carved out the state of Israel from Palestine, and made Arabs and Muslim the enemy.

Our British Muslim young men see this countries foreign policy as being set against the arab world;and they themselves then go to the Muslim Schools in Pakistan and become brain washed to be martyrs.

Let our government, that is the whole parliament, not Blair alone engage in sensible dialogue with the arab nations, and bring Israel to book to observe all UN resolutions. Only then shall we begin to have some kind of peace and understanding, and folk be able travel the world again in security and peace.

Right on Ken! What value is personal privacy if you can't do anything with it because of terrorist threats?

If someone can't recognise the threats from Islamic fundamentalist and other terrorist groups they are not living in the real world. Since I'm keen on preserving my own life I have no objections to any security measures that help. I have nothing to hide. People who shout loudest about this kind of measure should probably be added to the list of profile suspects.

Ken of Glenrothes, you have been duped. People who do not want a biometric ID database are not do-gooders, they are simply those who see the writing on the wall. History tells us what happens when rights are restricted to serve a supposedly higher, and always urgent goal. It has happened around the world many times, and it always leads to the abuse of power, the oppression of the weak, the disenfranchisement of anyone who disagrees with the prevailing politic, and the decrease of openness in government. Oh, and all such schemes have one other thing in common too: they universally fail to meet their original aims. ID databasing is a solution looking for a problem, and it hasn't found one yet.

Here is proof that we are being 'governed' by idiots! It is known that finger prints are not reliable (recall recent problems with an ex police officer) nor is there proof that iris scans are 100%. Where is the validation? But most important of all is the fact that any terrorist can circumvent aiports by using alternative transport.

What does finger-printing all passengers prove? Remember Shirley McKee!

Every airport traveller 'will be fingerprinted'
GERRI PEEV POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT
• Airport biometric procedures to be extended after alleged terror plot
• Six out of ten believe government is not exaggerating terrorism threat
• Reid reaction to terror has seen his public profile soar as Blair's successor
The politicians have this time really lost their toes and head. Darwin may have right.
See. If I wanted to come to UK and blow few things, it is not necessary that I come by air only. The idea is as stupid as the fingerprinting, eye scanning, and passports vigilance, air security raised and lowered at some different colures.
The Chunnel is from Europe to UK. Why not finger prints these passengers.
What these amount to is we have to get rid of the A level and put all of these students in a biology class.
If this is the forced education then I think the politician have missed the fun of A levels.

Tony Bliar (spelling intentional) and his government needs to go as soon as possible before Britain becomes a dictatorship. They are the ones responsible for the so called "terror" threats.
Oh, and most of the media is just as bad. The rubbish that you see and read in the news recently is pure scaremongering.

Reid may think he is paving the way for his being the next prime minister but in fact he is doing the exact opposite. He clearly has little idea of what to do except bluster, strut and grandstand.

I agree with John from Winchburgh.

It's always at the back of my mind that Tony Blair was educated here!

this may be a silly question, but how will finger printing and iris scanning passengers stop terrorists blowing up planes?

could someone talk me through the logic?

*baffled*

Unbelievable ... roll on the next election and use your hard won right to change the clowns attacking our civil liberties.

The objections to ID cards and other intrusions on our civil liberties should be about cost, but not in monetary terms ... power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely ... no one can be trusted to secure and not allow such information to be mis-used (intentionally or otherwise) - it is important that we stand up to this facist labour government to retain what is left of our civil liberties.

Went abroad on camping holiday. After three weeks of no news came back to the paranoic superstate called Britain. It is very clear that this government is manipulating the public and creating paranoia.

The aim of the terrorist is not to blow up airplanes, but to make us paranoid - and quite clearly they have already won!

Ken may be happy getting a barcode on his backside but i'm not. And i'm no do-gooder or criminal.

Rat woman Hazel, you need help.

How is this going to work then? The authorities had no prior knowledge of the individuals involved in the London, Madrid and New York attacks so how would a system like this have prevented them?

Maybe they now have a secret database of biometric data of known potential offenders? In which case why would they wait until they board a plane?

If B Liar and the boys start bringing in these kind of measures I think I will emigrate. They have so many wonderful ideas that are always HiTech and costly yet would fail to meet the intended goal.
What is needed is more security PEOPLE at ALL travel points in and out of UK. They need to be better trained, better paid and with a good level of intelligence. THIS is the way to minimise the risks of terrorist attack, to have people who can spot a potential risk. As others have stated so well...."as most attacks are by suicide attacks what is the point of historical data checking"?
Please HMG, B Liar and Co. Do not just offer sound-bite solutions, do not treat us as the fools you think we are. Treat us with the respect we deserve and EXPLAIN to us HOW any of the measures so far drafted will, in any way, reduce the risk of terrorist attack. I am here. The Scotsman has my email address, Tell me !

Its true you would need to fingerprint and iris id every single terrorist but then you would also have to consider the possible terrorists. As for id cards, biometric, iris checking, if you have nothing to hide, then whats the problem. I lived in California for 10 years and I had to have my thumb fingerprinted when I had my drivers license. Never bothered me because I HAD NOTHING TO HIDE. Remember not all terrorists are Islamic. Just because they take our details doesn't mean they are going to misuse them and if taking my iris and fingerprints helped stop them blow up a plane I was on - then carry on!

I do not see how this will provide any increase in security. In the USA they use this information to identify foreign nationals entering and leaving, not their own people.
I fear that it is another example of a government wanting to be seen to be doing something, and security services seeing it as another way of getting their biometric database.
As to the people who can not see the harm in allowing the government these new tools. Think it is not this bunch of sad craven incompetents you have to worry about, however you should possibly worry about the politicians we have in 10 years time or 20 etc.
Finally Hazel stop spewing your hate, you are a disgrace to your country and humanity

>> the way to deal with the present security crisis
is to get rid of all unnecessary flights, such
as package holidays.

You must be a bundle of laughs to live with.

Ban package holidays??

No chance pal, I remember the days when Butlins or Pontins was considered luxury and if to think we're going back to that, you can take a flying foxtrot at yersel.

Happy holidays at places such as Tossa de Mar and Lloret de Mar, not forgetting Benidorm, transformed the masses into windswept travellers on a par with Princess Margaret.

No Andrew of Auchtermuchty, you've gone too far. How about banning Jimmy Shand records for the noise polution impact - see you don't like it do you?

Andrew in Auchtermuchty,wants to do away with unnessary flights, how will this solve the security crisis, why is there a crisisat the airports but not at any other point of entry or exit in the UK, are we going to screen anyone who gets on a bus.
Passenger profiling is the best way to solve the problem, but we are scared to do this in case we upset the muslim community. It is time they started to admit that they have a problem within their community and adpoting some self policing of their own. When you get one of the top Muslim policemen in the MET complaining that the Muslim Community is being unfairly targeted then I believe there is self-denial as it is the Muslim community who are the ones who produing the suicide bombers.
The biometric procedures are already in force inthe USA,Canada and Australia so what is the problem with them being introduced here all we are doing in falling into line with these countries

How will finger printing me, identify a terrorist, did all the terrorist just turn up one day form a line and give their prints willingly. Why was that not front page news. What about potential terrorists and there must be plenty in the making, after the past four weeks in Lebanon are they going to sign up just on the off chance that one day they might become terrorists. This situation is slipping into the realms of fantasy, things are bad but this total insult to peoples intelligence is a disgrace. John Reid needs to engage his brain before opening his mouth and talking crap like this.

John (10), you are wrong to blame Israel or the Iraq war for terrorism in Britain. Muslim communities clash with non-Muslim communities all over the world regardless of what excuse extremists use. Riots and demonstrations over a cartoon in Denmark, fighting in Thailand, Philippines, Kashmir, Somalia, Nigeria, Chechnya, Kosovo, actually almost everywhere a Muslim population lives in close proximity to a non-Muslim population. And 95% of Muslim war deaths are from wars against other Muslims! Appeasement will only increase the prestige of the extremist elements as the Israelis found out when they pulled out of Palestinian territories.

>> If you've got nothing to hide then lets have all the controls possible.

Winston Smith would be proud of you!

Once again the vast majority must suffer to prevent a very small minority causing us harm.

It seems to me that racial profiling is the ONLY sensible way forward to stop air travel becoming completely impossible.

If white males aged 30 - 40 years old were regularly planning to blow planes out of the sky, I would EXPECT to be singled out for a careful shake-down at every airport. And why the hell not??

Yes, I would be uncomfortable with the idea, but why on earth should a mum with 3 kids, or a seventy year old granny be put through the same ordeal in these circumstances?

For the Muslim community to complain about the prospect of racial profiling is disingenuous and unhelpful. They are simply encouraging troublemakers to hide in their midst.

Furthermore, there are already a some novel ways of defining the trust level of strangers in use on the internet on sites like Ebay and Amazon for example. They aren't foolproof by any means, but they could also be quite easily adapted and extended to start finding out who shoud receive more or less attention before boarding flights.

Let’s see if we finger print suicide bombers they won't do it twice.
Admittedly, Lily White suicide bombers are a problem but with finger printing, they can't do it a second time and get off with it.
Well mmm ... Cats with nine lives will at least be deterred in what will be named …Operation Orwell

From 31 -- "Appeasement will only increase the prestige of the extremist elements as the Israelis found out when they pulled out of Palestinian territories."
Ah Dougie quite right -- Appeasememt is now obeying international law and leaving someody else's land which must have pleased them. Was Hitler therefore stuck in Czechoslovakia incase he appeased Chamberlain

Similarly soft Burglars have been appeasing people for years by eventually leaving peoples houses ..if only they were tougher and stayed and occupied the living room they would, no doubt, get more respect.
Indeed if they never left the house the could not by definition be taken to court. This approach works internationally! Those slow soft burglars must learn from the international scence when they too engage in theft or occupation of someone elses property.

Tom frae Aberdeen,

Fantastic post. The only one I got stuck on was the Smurf one, but the rest show a definite pattern.

It just goes to show that you can never tell who's going to be upto no good!!

Nope, .........I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you? So, to ensure democratic western Christian civilisation never offends anyone - particularly fanatics intent on killing us - airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile (or target)certain people. They must only conduct random searches of 80-year-oldwomen, people in wheelchairs, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, Secret Service agents who are members of the U.S.President's security detail, 85-year old World War II veterans with metal hips, and Boy Scout groups. They must never "target" a turbanwearing 17 to 40 year old male who appears to have a suspicious package tied around his body. This would be unjustified discrimination!

Send this to as many people as you can so that the "do gooders," Greenies and other misguided fools, including some High Court Judges, who want to thwart common sense feel doubly ashamed of themselves. As Forest Gump (a product of decadent democratic western Christian civilisation) so aptly put it, "Stupid is as stupid does!"

I think you are all idiots. I lived with an ID Card for 15 years in Italy and it caused me no problem at all. Seems that safety is not a great issue to some. What's up? Paranoia setting. Blair and Bush have got nothing to do with Islamic terrorism it was ongoing before 9/11. Stop whinging and start using your common sense for once.

Profiling takes place every time there's an all-points bulletin (APB) over police radios. A BOLO is issued: "Be on the lookout for" and a description follows: "White/black/hispanic male, approximately 20 years of age, wearing black tee shirt, red baseball cap" etc.

Police look for that profile. Not only does it happen in the United States, but I've actually heard (hold on to your seats) that this practice of profiling is actually used in the UK!!!

Now: If flying airplanes into buildings and military command centers, bombing trains, planes, automobiles, pizza parlors, schoolbuses, and so on, are almost always perpetrated by hirsute, scowling young muslim men from ages 15-45, then possibly, just possibly, it makes sense to give persons fitting this description a more-than-cursory inspection at mass transportation centers.

But that is only a band-aid, and won't catch the terrorists in any large numbers, especially as one astute reader pointed out, since these criminals either blow themselves up or get somebody else to do it for them-- as in the case of the young Irish woman who carried a bomb onto an airplane for her arab boyfriend some years ago.

The real problem is centered right smack dab in the muslim community in any given city. These terrorists have large support systems, and if you think they don't, then you are living in la-la-land. Either muslims clean up their act, or the results will be inevitable and very, very bloody. And, even though Europeans seem to value their muslim populations over their indigenous populations, muslims are still outnumbered in nearly all European nations except for a few benighted Balkan countries. So, if I were an intelligent, thoughtful muslim, if there is such a thing, I would be thinking about ways and means to reverse the present suicidal course that the adherents of this religion are taking-- a course that will carry nations with it, and will end up in a war the likes of whic

> Andrew
"Air travel is an environmental atrocity - the
way to deal with the present security crisis
is to get rid of all unnecessary flights, such
as package holidays."

Do you own the Campsite in Auchtermuchty?

It's gotta be Bush and Blair that are responsible for this sorry mess. It couldn't possibly be a religion whose adherents teach five year olds to want to be suicide bombers, could it now.

Yep. The attempt to democratize Iraq may be an impossible exercise, given that one half of the Iraqui population despises the other half and both halves spend all their time trying to blow the other ones off the face of the earth, but it was a generous, idealistic, optimistic act. George W. Bush removed a sadistic monster from power and tried, with some assistance from Britain, to bring democracy and the rule of law to that suffering nation.

That the attempt seems to have foundered is not a question of a high-minded plan. The present mess is the result of active interference by surrounding muslim governments, especially Iran which is attempting hegemony in the entire Middle East, and a vicious, dangerous religion that is the perfect tool for these despots to attain their ends.

#7 ken

ken says that "Only 2 types of people don't want controls..Criminals and "Do Gooders" who think their Human rights are above everything else."

Ken, criminals don't care about the controls, they can always get around them. Criminal activity is by it's very nature clandestine and avoids revealing your identity. Spain has had ID cards since Franco's time, did that stop the Madrid bombings? Is there significantly less crime in Spain per head of population that the UK? the answers are no and no respectively.

As for the do gooders, they protect their human rights as much as possible, so that the black police vans don't come round their house in the night and take them off for 90 days detention without trial or representation, as a terrorist suspect, because the data entry clerk who input the information into the national ID database was out late last night and didn't key in the details properly. To be fair, they're doing it to protect themselves, still, you benefit from it too. Isn't that nice?

You also say "If you've got nothing to hide then lets have all the controls possible." a variation on the classic "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" If I have nothing to hide, why should I then have to verify that to any Tom, Dick or Harriet with a badge or a grey suit?

If they suspect me of a crime, they have to prove it. It's called presumption of innocence and it's the basis of british law. The law (and it's several hundred years old, so it's pretty well tested) also says that I have the right not to incriminate myself.

If I have nothing to hide, then I should have nothing to fear, and that includes the fear of being arrested for not having my biometric ID card on me.

Tom from Aberdeen - Your a racist. Simple as that.

For your information:

- Oklahoma City Bombing (April 1995)

Carried out by white Chistian extremists.

- Simulated anthrax letter bomb attacks in New York in Oct 2001

Carried out by white Christian extremists.

- Ariel bomb attacks on shopping market in Baghdad in April 2003 (killing a wedding party)

Carried out by white Christian extremists.

- Bombing of Afghan wedding party in Kabul on July 4th 2005?

Carried out by white Christian extremists.

- Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Carried out by white Christian extremists.

The list is endless pal.

-

Mairi fae Glesca

Well said, it would seem Mr Auchtermuchty has an agenda of self interest. Ban package tours and he rakes it in!! We'd be back to the 1950's when only rich people could travel abroad and the rest of us end up in campsites playing rounders all day.

The UN could pass a resolution insisting that only registered terrorists, carrying the appropriate ID, are allowed to blow themselves, and others, up. Any suicide bomber committing a terrorist act without this authority would be given a stern warning not to do it again.
That should solve the problem.
The government has my permission to propose this policy without attribution. That should get them elected next time.

It's not the controls I object to, it's the fact that they are likely to cost a significant amount of money and are unlikely to significantly decrease the risk of terrorism.

This is a crock of nonsense. John Reid talks out of the orifice that most of us use for excreting waste matter. Always has done. See Secretary of State for Scotland, Northern Ireland Secretary. He exists only to remind us how frighteningly easy it is for mediocrity to proliferate.

I don't know if the whole mess is by design or by destiny but the muslims all over the world are going to suffer. The WMD in Iraq and the Talibans (Creation of USA) in Afganistan had been a lame excuse to unleash the reign of terror by none other than the most vocal democracies on earth (Yes, USA and UK).
Islam, if someone tries to understand is not a religion of hatred but a religion of peace. Muslims, when maltreated, respond violently which, I believe, anyone else would do. Militarily weak muslims, however, should not act violently rather wait for the day patiently when they become strong in all respects and can see eye to eye with other people.
Nevertheless, I support the idea of fingerprinting each and every traveller.

Once a frequent traveller in the US, the only country where I have had to give my finger print, and the only country where I was subjected frequently to secondary secutiry checks - reason; passengers with one way tickets are security risks.

Oh what joy to live in a land of freedom and democracy!

Our lives are at greater risk with our present government - get out there and vote next time - VOTE them out!

When I get back from my holiday, you lot will all be under arrest!

This is pathetic.

It's like telling a child that a bogeyman is coming to get you if you don't eat your greens.

Far from making us safe, the Home Secrtary is probably feeding the fantasies of deranged idiots who even now are imagining ways they can go out in glory.

Idiot.

#10 John

"By all means let us have a secure system of checking in passengers. But lets remind ourselves that the present world situation has been brought about by Bush and Blair, and the do gooders over the years who carved out the state of Israel from Palestine, and made Arabs and Muslim the enemy."

No it hasn't John, they may not have helped, but they didn't bring it about. Before you descend too far into polemics, ask yourself this question. If Tony Blair and George Bush were to disappear tomorrow (not necessarily a bad thing), would it bring the fighting in the middle east to a halt? Sunni's and Shia would still be massacring each other in Iraq. Southern Lebanon would still be a bombed out wasteland and the Palestinians would still be killing Israelis and vice versa. Nor would it stop terrorism in Europe and North America, Al-qaeda's goals are not to force an election, they are to destroy the west. Even if you returned to the status quo, 9/11 happened before we went into Iraq, the taleban were still terrorising afghanistan and Saddam Hussein was happily murdering his own people by the thousand.

As for carving the state of Israel from Palestine, that's true, but what would you suggest? have the UN move the state of israel? shift them all to an underpopulated region of africa? What about the sudan? The israeli army would certainly make short work of the Janjaweed.

"Our British Muslim young men see this countries foreign policy as being set against the arab world;and they themselves then go to the Muslim Schools in Pakistan and become brain washed to be martyrs."

Yes, no argument there, they do see that. Where I disagree with you is that that should not send them down the terrorist route, it should send them into the political protest route, organising marches and demo's, petitions and lobbying. Which is what a democracy is about. Not going to extremist schools in Pakistan and learning how to make bombs. What ab

Fact is , there's nothing you can do to stop suicide bombers (trains - nope , Planes - reasonably, cars + buses - forget it). All you can do is make it easier to find out who they were or are if they fudge it up, helps investigations.

I've nothing against identity cards. They must be carried by law in most of mainland Europe and are a small price to pay for Schengen.

Germany, holland and belgium have problems but no terrorism to speak of because they dont hate muslimsand arent too closely affiliated with the great enemy .

can i make it any clearer.

It is not just criminals and do gooders that do not want ID cards. It is people who remember that all the bombers in the 11th July attack on the London tube were British Citizens and would have carried one. Deal with the issues and stop thinking the police can do the job of a good citizen

Hey dont knock Butlins I have had some fab times there and recently too. ; )

Anyone wanna check out my profile on ebay?

Kevin, Leith you sound like a white Christian extremists.

and your facts are all wrong

Iain, Edinburgh / 12:18pm 17 Aug 2006

thanks for the one liner

To 44 (AJ Fife)

I don't see that it is at all smart to burn up the earth's resources just so people can go abroad for holidays and in turn heavily pollute the atmosphere and create global warming.

Modern aviation, and the ease with which one can fly at artificially cheap prices, is one of the worst things that has happened to this planet and very few people who advocate this selfish freedom to travel seem to realise that, in any case, in a few decades there won't be easily available fossil fuel to propel these obscenities through the sky

If people looked more closely they might find a lot of interesting holiday places in the British Isles.

Mohammed, that is the most pathetcially weak reasoning I have read, if Islam is a religion of peace why do your Mullahs preach death to the infidel, and why does preach that you should covert the whole world whether they want to be converted or not

ref tom, leominster herefordshire uk holidays

Where would that be tom

in the kingdom of fife

There is a much cheaper option.

In the UK you get the vet to put a microchip in your cat or dog in case they get lost.

Why not chip everyone in the UK / Europe so they can be tracked wherever they go in the world.

Any one with out a chip would be classified as a terrorist /enemy of the state and sent to a concentration camp.

As we all know if you have nothing to fear and are law abiding you would welcome the security the chip would bring.
Any objectors are left wing hippies or those that would do us harm and should be locked up anyway.

We can certainly trust our democratically elected government not to abuse such a system can’t we?

Remember the German people actually voted Adolph Hitler into power…..

well said peter

To Tom (60)

Eh, no. I'm actually from Fife and it's the last place I'd go on holiday!

Finger printing travellers is not the solution..

Bringing an end to the attrocities happening in Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq is the solution!

Muslims don't want us to go to their mosques, to stop eating bacon butties, stop drinking and partying.. they would rather our women did not wear habibs,, they don't preach to us to change our lives.

They just want Israel to stop terrorizing the Palestinians & Lebonese and for the west (Mainly the USA) to stop helping the Israelis to do it!

They want the US to stop sending Bombs, F16's and Helicopter Gunships and other military kit to kill and oppress civillians in Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Afghansitan.

They see what the US & UK have done in Iraq, the hundreds of people being killed on a daily basis.. They want this to end!
( I believe Sadam Hussain killed less Iraqis than George Bush and the subsequent unrest... And there is no end in sight... It begs the question.. Does Mr Bush want the "Civil Unrest" to end).

They want the western media to tell the truth as is and not distort what is happening.

They want the west to be fair and get Israel to comply with UN Resolutions.

They have seen the UN Human Rights council Condem ISRAEL for;

"MASSIVE VIOLATIONS of HUMAN RIGHTS"., for the "SENSELESS KILLINGS BY ISRAEL, WITH IMPUNITY, OF CHILDREN, WOMEN, THE ELDERLY" AND TO "IMMEDIATELY STOP MILITARY OPERATIONS AGAINST (THE) CIVILIAN POPULATION"

... Yet the west sits on their thumbs... The US Sends more Bombs! Knowing full well what the Israelis were going to do before it happened.

The Documentary Peace Propaganda and the Promised Land gives comparison as how events are reported in the US, Europe and what actually happened.

It is worth watching to the end.. an huge eye opener;
Report Unsuitable

#57 Tom

You're welcome Tom, which line?, there were quite a few in there. (I get a bit carried away)

Actually I'll let you in on a secret. David Icke has been in charge of the country for a good while now and has invented this story to stop people polluting the skies.

Flights will be banned soon.

Cars will be banned when it is realised that bombs can be hidden in 'Magic Trees'.

If Finger printing does go though,

I can see Tony Blair & George Bush going through Airport Security and getting Arrested...

Mr , Bush Blair...

Both Your Finger Prints are all over the bomb casing that killed 60 people in Qana.. etc.

You have the right to remain silent..

Let's for a moment imagine that we have the following biometric checks at an airport: Iris scan, fingerprint and earprint and that I am carrying the latest UK ID card.

Let's for another moment imagine that I am a white caucasian (which by chance I am) and that I have recently converted to Islam. Further that I am so disenchanted with the UK's foreign policy that I've been radicalised. However as I realise that if I remain in appearance the same as I am now I stand a good chance of going undetected.

Suppose that I do not share my thoughts about my disaffection with anyone at all. And I mean no one. And that I then decide that the only way to make the UK re-think its foreign policies is to commit mass murder on huge scale.

Now here comes the crunch. In what way would all the biometric information help the authorities spot me if I had absolutely no criminal record of any sort. Of course, like almost everyone, I will be on probably dozens of computer databases and yet it is highly unlikely that there will be a 'flag' against my name as a potential bomber.

The point I am making is that biometric and ID data will not prevent anyone doing anything. It might help identify me from the wreckage I have left behind - but by then it'll be too late.

So the introduction of all these so called security measures are a waste of time. El Al, the Israeli National Airline has done without any of these measures and has been safe for a long time. If you have flown on El Al you will know how they achieve it. Their security checks are all about people and they want to know your motivations and your responses. They are well trained and they are effective. That creep Reid should look at El Al rather than spend our taxes on useless, ineffective schemes such as biometric data.

58 Tom .

The only legitmate reason to fly is to make war. Ergo, everything is okay for the mussies.

Muslims don't like us, pure and simple, they want to convert everybody to their own backwards religion or kill those who won't. Nothing anybody says or does will change this fact.

HOw about cruise liners ? perfect targets.

Rob of London "Both Your Finger Prints are all over the bomb casing that killed 60 people in Qana.. etc.

You have the right to remain silent.."

What about the missiles that hit Israel or is that different

Tom,
Finding a decent holiday destination in Britain - impossible! The weather is freezing for a start bar a few days and luxuries like cigarettes and vodka are over priced. The masses would riot in city centers everywhere and the interface of cultures would undoubtly suffer if package hols were banned.

What we need is increased oil reserves, and Mr Bush is on the case. Take over Middle East and use oil supplies to continue expanding economy - of which air travel is a major factor - and everything will be just fine.

Dont worry Steven, Marie Antoinette is known for being rude and barking at people who dont share his/her? ideology!.

The poor quality of this governments politicians and their idea's or decisions at every level is unfathonable.
They are completely out of control and will continue this type of approach until they feel the full weight of public anger at their ineptitude and wastefulness.
Reid is talking nonsense and committing huge amounts of money for something that will not solve the issue at hand but will impact our freedom - all for his own selfish political ambitions.
If you are seeking a chap of say, chinese extraction, do you fingerprint / iris scan / DNA sample / measure and assess everyone ?

Security at airports like that seen over the last few days is completely unsustainable as long as companies like BA and the BAA are allowed to shed staff consistantly in search of obsene profit levels. You simply cannot refer security issues to BA.COM or BAA.COM. It was apparent to all those travelling that there were accute staff shortages despite the spin put on by the managers. Profits will have to be forsaken for more efficient security management! Do you think that will happen???? Finally, since 9/11 every ticket sold has had a security levi placed upon it equating to £5 per sector. Where has all that money gone, we still see unmanned x-ray machines and longer queues at passport control. Just like going to a bank with 6 desks, 5 of which are not operating, but a queue of 8 people at the one that is!!!!!!!!!!

Freezing??? In Britain?? not lately and it is a beautiful Island with lots to see and do, only problem would be the expense but that said it can be done on the cheap.

ref comment 66 Marie Antoinette

Marie remember what the doctor said take the tablets twice daily and come back in a fortnight

To Rob in London , are you a social worker by any chance,
The "Suicide Bombers" are mostly traumitised kids, that are medically depressed,
The classic statement made by social services when someone commits an act of evil, it's not their fault and it is cry for help, exactly what you have said, they are all under privaliged children who have been badly trrated, come one they complete and utter lunatics and the quicker the Muslim community admits to this problem in their midst the easier it will be to fix it
They do want to change us as the Koran encourages them to go out and convert the world to Islam, so where does that fit in with your story

Jobe,
You enjoyed Butlitz? My memories were of an army/concentration camp set up - loudspeakers that woke you up, massive canteens that served watery beans and queues to get on any decent fun fair rides. It was hardly Acapulco. Nevermind, what ever tickles yer cookies.

Now, Benidorm, that's the place for memories. Surprisingly Mr Blair finds Cliff's Carribean Paradise more appealing!!

You only have to watch James Bond films to know that fingerprinting and iris scans won't work. If 007 can make falsies, so can terrorists.

I think if you put Tom (34) and Kevins (43) posts together you hit the nail on the head. Religious Extremeists, regardless of denomination.

The west fighting the east is an old story. Anyone remember doing The Crusades in history class. The modern difference is we now seem to scared of offending people.

If my safety depends on a few individuals feeling offended then tough!

"Well said, it would seem Mr Auchtermuchty has an agenda of self interest. Ban package tours and he rakes it in!! We'd be back to the 1950's when only rich people could travel abroad and the rest of us end up in campsites playing rounders all day"

AJ

I really don't know where you spent your campsite holidays that you actually got out to play rounders. We dreamed of that - as the rain poured down and we were doomed to another day of:

a. Playing cards all day with the family.
b. Fighting about the card games all day with the family
c. Sitting in our old Ford Anglia eating sandwiches on our picnic (!) and watching the rain pour down on a local beauty spot.

To get back to the matter in hand - what reassurances will we have from our beloved Furher, sorry I meant Leader, that this fingerprint data and all the other intrusive and pesonal details will not be stolen and misappropriated by criminals. I assume they will all be stored on computers - lets hope the security measures in place on them will not be foiled by hackers.

LOL yeah. Now i'm not trying to sell Butlins but I did have a great time, the people you meet are the salt of the earth. Well Okay i'll admit it's the adult only weekends that appeal, all them kids would be too much for me. But things have progressed, no more " good morning campers" and i'm not much of a one for fair rides these days so I'll probably have to concede that one, you probably still get the queues. : )

Utter madness from an incompetant panic stricken
big brother nanny state gvmt. I think that about covers the talents of new labour.

The entire thing is paranoia fueling those wanting a big brother state.

So with all the biometric data on your passport, does this mean internal flights are incapable of being blown up?

It has to be an easier target - and would have a greater death toll if planes fall to built up areas.

Then surely money spent on better faster motorways would make more sense, that fruitless security measures?

Comparing the damage aspect to land mines, they are made to mame, not kill. As greater time is needed in tending an injured soldier. 11/9 obviously left massive damage on the ground that prolonged the impact of the event. So why would planes flying from Heathrow be tidily blown up over the sea?

Sorry, I just dont see that as the planned event.

The entire paranoia aspect is like building a fortress round your front door and leaving your windows and back door open.

If security is tightened on flights, it is still easy to bring down a plane with a missile from miles away from the airport, to fly a small plane into a large one, to make a bomb and post it so it will be in a flight. There are limitless ways.

But why just planes?

Supertankers, nuclear power stations, subways, dams, large sporting events, speeding trains...

So its just a knee jerk reaction trying to fix one hole in a sponge and hope it will become watertight.

It is dealing with the cause that is the only real way of dealing with the situation. This not being the bombers, but the policies that make them feel the need to perform (or be duped into) the terrorist actions.

It is also amazing the US seems to prefer the "bomb the b@st@rds" approach in fear of appearing weak. But as a worst possible scenario, how difficult would it be to construct a nuclear weapon in the back of a truck in Canada then drive to New York?

I appreciate this sounds attrocious. But the people it killed would be as innocent as those civilians killed wit

Pete , no one is a complete and utter nutter (not even me) and there is a cause and effect for everything. Remove what causes suicide bombers and you remove the bombing.

Fairly simple i wouldve thought, implementation is a little harder.

#82 Big Tam

"If 007 can make falsies"

007 with a pair of exploding comedy boobs? Doesn't bear thinking about.

87, i should have read that first. Parfait.

Anna fae Cambridgeshire,

Hi, hope you are well. Ford Anglia eh, we had a leaky 1958 VW Beetle and the fumes used to penetrate the cab. The thing would breakdown from the slightest splash of a puddle, but it did reach Butlins - unfortunately.

You are right though, the rounders didn't happen very often.

The matter at hand - we are all slowly, but surely being processed by this Fascist government and before long it'll be impossible to scratch your backside without it being clocked!!

Steve #73...

You asked What about the missiles that hit Israel??

Yes, with fingerprints, we may find who launched or delivered them.. If it was Hezbollah or A.N. Other providing an excuse to continue the war.

How did Hezbollah Launch Over 3500 missiles from literally where the Israelis were positioned?

Katyushas have a Range of 5 to 12 miles, Fah3 about 30miles.. The Kheibher has a range of 40m.. The Litani River is 16m north of the Border, S Lebanon is 20m wide... (The distance From Glasgow to Greenock), The missiles had to be launched literally from where the Israelis were positioned.

The Israelis had approx 75 troops and several tanks, armoured cars, self propelled artillery per square mile... patrolled by Manned and Unmanned Spotter aircraft, Helicopter gunships, spy planes, Satellites..

The Hi Res pictures taken over the past weeks and years will have pin-pointed literally all Hezbollah and Lanbanese positions.

Their location would have been known to the Israelis, added to the target list and taken out ..

.. as they did with the Unarmed UN Observers.

Mhari (40)

> Andrew
"Air travel is an environmental atrocity - the
way to deal with the present security crisis
is to get rid of all unnecessary flights, such
as package holidays."

Do you own the Campsite in Auchtermuchty?

Sounds more like a Haggerston Castle owner to my mind.

Peter #80, Not a social worker

Just P***d off to see the UK Government sucking up to Terrorists!

> 88. Marie Antoinette / 1:10pm 17 Aug 2006 Pete , "no one is a complete and utter nutter (not even me) and there is a cause and effect for everything. Remove what causes suicide bombers and you remove the bombing.

Fairly simple i wouldve thought, implementation is a little harder."

Yea, simple !

They come to our country don't like our foriegn policy, our religion, our women in short skirts, so they threaten to blow us all up and we give in and change it all to suit them.

Clever thinking, just what we did with Hitler a few years back.

Comment Removed

Benny , what did we do to hitler a few years ago? Jeesus man.

Yes they are blowing us up becauseof the short skirts. Amazing no-one else has noticed this.

Marie

Your history knowledge is clearly a bit scanty (probably like your clothes are in the eyes of Moslem male extremists) - it was called appeasement and it got us nae where.

And get away from my front door, I've called the cops ;-)

John from Winchburgh is right. Getting to the root of the Israel problem would certainly be a good start. Why on earth must our PM's, and Tony B Liar has been one of the worst, be so keen to follow everything the American President does? The Israelis seem to think they can get away with anything because they have the US behind them (and the UK because we support the US) The Americans dont' want to come down hard on the Israelis because the Jewish community in America have too much influence financially and politically. I think it is high time we took our own stand on this and insisted Israel toes the line. However, Tony B Liar is too afraid to stand up for himself so as long as he stays and Bush stays the Israeli's will carry on regardless. Then there's the question of the illegal war in Iraq.... Yup our foreign policy stinks - time to sort it out but if we dont' vote for Tony B Liar next time who do we vote for? Do we all suddenly become Tories???

BIOMETRIC PROCEDURES ARE NOT IN PLACE IN CANADA
&
HOPEFULLY NEVER WILL BE

Vote for me ! No more political correctness.

Don't worry folks. In twenty years time when oil is really scarce and expensive you'll be able to travel by train, thanks to the £1billion EARL project, to the Edinburgh Airport holiday camp. That is the only use the new railway and 'former' airport buildings will have. By then the climate will be nice and warm!
Who do you profile for security then? Everyone who has a holiday there would want to blow it up!

Chances of being killed by a terrorist incident on an aeroplane is approx One in 13 million (similar to winning the lottery).

The equivilent chance of dying while driving a car to give you the same 1 in 13 million chance of dying would be to drive 12.5 miles in your car.....

Lets get some perspective.......

Kenny do you work for Ladbrokes?

Throw every foreigner out of Britain, and Jail anyone that doesn't obey the law, we are far to soft and democratic. Like the police requesting more time for questioning the suspects, would this have happened in anywhere in the middle east, sometimes we are too democratic for our own good.

105. I agree. Far too democratic and you are first to go you daft spanner.

Am I the only one here thinking that MORE force is needed in Iraq and Afghanistan?

What is the point of owning nuclear weapons if you can't use them occasionally and make a statement?

I am not taliking about levelling cities here, I am talking about bombing the odd mountain range on the Afghan/Pakistan border to show willing.

There are a couple of added bonuses to this idea too; the affected areas would be uninhabitable for a couple of centuries, and Bin Laden would need some serious supplies of Savlon for the body sores..

Bagsy first viewing of the video on Youtube.

: )

To get back to the article, I cannot see how an electronic database of fingerprints and iris scans can be regarded as a secure way of preventing terrorism. I simply cannot see how iris scans and fingerprints can be used to profile anything or anyone. I can, however, see how a government database - complete with the normal IT snafus and security holes - could be used by terrorists (and criminals in general) to counterfeit IDs so as to make their lives easier (hey, the computer says he's OK, so no problem, right?). Even after 25 years of experience with PCs we STILL believe, almost uncritically, what appears on the screen.

To break this logjam, maybe Mr Reid could hazard a guess and let us know how many of the 7/7 bombers would have been picked up by using biometric scans. None? OK, well howsabout the 9/11 bombers, then. Still none? Madrid then. No? Oh dear, doesn't seem very efficient, does it?

I live with paper ID cards, I have done so for 17 years, and I have no problem with them. It is the electronic database that scares me witless. Paper ID cards can be couterfeited, but the human eyeball can at least look at it and assess whether it was a good job or not. The person looking at the card is also forced into some sort of communication with the holder, which gives them another chance to review the subject and their motives. The human eye has no way to tell a falsified electronic record from an accurate one.

I also have no problem with sensible profiling, but I have a big problem with simplistic profiling (i.e. stop and search anyone with dark skin and a beard). If the latest high-risk terror group is Fathers 4 Justice, perhaps looking to take down a plane in a cloud of purple smoke, then I positively DEMAND that the security services spend a bit more time screening white males of between 30 and 50 who are travelling without a family.

What if a would-be terrorist never committed a crime previously? How are biometrics going to stop him or her from boarding a plane? You would think that their biometric reading would show a "clean" record as they check-in at the airport and they wouldn't be stopped, anyway. So, what's the point of all this?

Ah well that's it then. I've taken my last flight. It's just not worth the hassle anymore.

Bet you one thing though.. The iris scan kit will be American.

Since politicians and their stupid posturing cause far more disruption than terrorists, let's just outlaw them instead.

I am one that is for all the security measures even to carry the proper Photo ID.
It will come a time you will have to have these thing to draw your money from the bank.
The only people who are afraid of this is the CRIMINALS.

I travel a lot and I would like to see NO ELECTRONIC EQUIPEMENT carried on to planes as no one really know how they effect the workings of the aircraft, just take the batteries of laptops going in fire, this could happen to any battery.

It is becoming ever more obvious that John Reid has lost the plot and this Government is a much bigger threat to our civil liberties than any terrorist.

Having failed to make a coherent case for ID cards he is trying to use his own hysteria to force it through the back door.

This Government is completely incompetent and needs to be removed.

Unfortunately the Tories are no better, so what's the answer?

Scottish independence.

With independence we can remove ourselves from the policies of the UK Government which are designed to please George Bush and steal other people's oil. We have our own oil and we don't need to prop up undemocratic regimes.

We can also remove ourselves from endless imaginary plots (no doubt some are real but there are so many it stretches credibility) and the genuine threat to our civil liberties posed by Tony Blair and his ministers, who are willing to give up any civil right in the name of their 'war'.

The US government talks of freedom and democracy but it does not genuinely believe in it.

What they want are compliant right of centre regimes who will sell them their oil cheap, if they abuse and persecute their own people at the same time it matters not a jot.

Without respect for civil rights there will be no end to any international crisis. Blair, Bush and Israel are promoting a might is right philosophy which has no basis in international law and therefore deserves no respect whatsoever.

http://www.scottishindependence.com

The only people worried about this are the criminals, we should start taking DNA at birth, lets see how many rapist etc get away with it then. why do all these do gooders object to this sort of behaviour, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about.

Gerald (112),
yep, no problem at all with photo ID. I'm all for it. But it should stop there.

Joe,
Such a sweet, cosy idea, but I fail to see how an "independent" Scot could hope to travel anywhere without having to comply with everyone else's ID requirements.

You can't just roll up the tartan welcome mat and refuse to play.

Stay at the top table and try to influence the rules!

#115 Alan

Ah, sort out the untermenschen at birth then?

Hey, I've got an idea, we could use the dna to identify mental defectives and gays pre birth and abort them , after that, well, the sky's the limit. Eliminate Jewish characteristics, non-blondes, anything you like.

Our society would last for a thousand years.

Funny, I'm getting a sense of deja-vu here.

As to nothing to hide, nothing to worry about - well, I believe I've answered that one in a previous post, but in the society you're advocating, even if I had nothing to hide, I'd have plenty to worry about.

# 12 Duncan
# 22 Brian
# 42 Ian

Hey lads, back to the Student Union Bar...it's happy hour...and time to learn more about world experiences.

Either that or ...off you go to the Scottish Socialist Party meeting to hear what Tommy is going to do next to lead our Country. Maybe even the traitor George Galloway may be there !!!

To get hard on Crime, terrorism and immigration, controls such as ID Cards and all other measures will assist greatly...I agree, it will not stop it totally, but anything is better than doing nothing as we are at the moment. Criminals are getting away with too much, Terrorists are disrupting our lives and illegal immigrants are costing us a fortune.

I don't give a hoot what anyone says, it's "Do Gooders" and Social orientated groups or organisations placing the "wishes" of those poor misunderstood elements in our society before the needs of the Country and the people of this Country

Bring in controls...bring them in fast and bring them in hard.

114 . Pacemakers kind of destroys that idea , eh?

Iain,

Perhaps you have a problem with gays and jews etc, I don't. I just can't see the harm in people knowing they will be identified if they do anything wrong, surely makes a lot of sense knowing who done something rather than spending £millions trying to find someone after they have commited a crime.

You are still living in the George Orwell novel, the world has moved on, so has crimals, so we must also.

118. Don't worry , all these neo-idiots 'hangings too good for them' comments are only going to stir up the hornets nest even more.

Ever heard of cause and effect?

Lay off good old George Galloway, he can argue the pants off anybody and is an authority on the Middle East. His radio show is also worth listening too, as he gives everybody air time, no matter their politics.

Whether you like him or hate him, you can't ignore him. As for being a traitor..........I don't think so, we live in a democracy and he is entitled to his opinion.

The American and British government have an army of people trying to get something on George, and you know what, they have nothing, apart from empty and scurrilous accusations.

See guys, us do-gooders are already ten years ahead of you lot.

"Controls on flights - bring them in fast"

What about trains , cruise-ships , cinemas etc

You cant stop it that way. use your brains.

Stop the reason suicide bombers exist and are bothering us - our surreal foriegn policy

I must have missed this news headline: Local London Mosque Gives Press Release: As a pledge of solidarity with the citizen's as well as the UK government, Muslim's, in a united front, denounce the terrorist acts perpetrated by the radical factions of Islam. "Our Holy Book, the Q'ran, does not teach violence". "Mohammad(PBUN) was the Father of Peace". Spokeman for the UK based Mosque's, pledged a renew effort to bring about peaceful dialouge with the State of Israel, and will join other world leaders in their efforts to prevent needless deaths, due to terrorist acts. -end-
I would like a copy of that report to share with my anti-Muslim friends. I'm not sure whether BBC, or Scotsman.com published this report. No media service in the US has posted such an article. Thank you UK, for your stead-fast support of the Muslim religion, a real beacon, and stalwart leader in the modern world.

Not trusting the government is a civic responsibility. Let's not let the current paranoids give away civil liberities, those liberties won't come back easily. Although #118 Iain is stretching it a bit, he does have a point. Put an end to "stricter policing" now. BTW, I'm not afraid of the "terrorists", they have no where near the power the government has to effect your daily existance.

To# 113. Joe, Edinburgh / 3:29pm 17 Aug 2006
Wow great Idea, once independence is achieved we will all be safe right? Mental note...Must vote for independence, no terrorism in Scotland, hmmm well at least that would buy us some time, the extremists will eat us last. phew!
Hey and you managed to promote your website too, nice one!

Alan @21, do hate to remind you, "criminal's" is not spelled 'crimals'. Sorry old boy, but we mustn't butcher the mother language, must we?

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.

attributed to Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

Hi
I am an immigrant living here who happens to be a Muslim. I am very greatefull to this great nation for giving me the freedom and the oppoetunity to improve my life. I share the idea with most of the world's population to live peacefully, treat each other nicely and respectfuly. I was forced to leave my native country because of a lot of persecution against me and my fellow believers, who believe in love, peace and brotherhood as well. How should I live here to avoid facing any hate from people as being a muslim, or should I convert to Christianity or Judism?

Advices will help.
Thanks
God Bless You All

To TOM & TOM, Last month I completed the Fife coastal path walk. The weather was great and the natives were friendly. Not a Muslim in sight unlike here in the west where they are in my face all the time and one is tripping over them. We have to move for them otherwise we are being racist.

Quote #117 Clive..You can't just roll up the tartan welcome mat and refuse to play.

Stay at the top table and try to influence the rules!

We are at the top table LOL, Blairs cabinet is full of Scots and John Reid, (Scot) the guy introducing these new measures being home secetary.

Ken, (119) (and others, nothing personal),

There is a world of difference between having to carry photo ID (which is pretty unobjectionable, if you ask me) and storing biometric data electronically in a big government database.

Even Microsoft has labelled the UK government as crazy in wanting to create such a honeypot for every hacker in creation. This database would be accessible to every customs and immigration official in the EU and the USA (at the very least, and possibly world-wide) and to UK police forces (plus interpol, FBI, ...). Then you extend access under the ID card scheme to every hospital, doctor, dentist, pharmacy, DSS office and so on.

A database is only truly secure if it cannot be accessed by outside parties. The more points of access you have, the greater the risk of accidental or malicious damage. This one will leak like a seive. You think identity theft is a problem now? Just wait until your details are deleted/overwritten, whether deliberately or by accident, and see how you cope. (Remember, the computer is always right, and even if it is wrong it is YOUR job to prove it.)

I do not see a biometric database as a solution to anything, except for a government wanting to be seen to be doing something (and to rescue its ID card project).

Paranoia? You'd better believe it!

#121 Alan

Nope, no problem with either group, that was irony (or maybe sarcasm) and I appreciate that criminals have moved on, unfortunately, human nature is still the same. If you put the tools of control like that in front of politicians, they'll use them - they won't be able to help themselves.

I know all the arguments about security v freedom, and can't make omelettes without breaking eggs. That's all well and good, but what happens after the terrorist crisis is over? If it ever is, there will always be someone somewhere threatening our peace.

Will we find ourselves subject to more and more draconian laws and restrictions in the name of safety?

I can see a situation where we give up on all the freedoms that we have fought for for the last 400 years or so, and we do it willingly because we're scared of the big bad terrorists that the government parades so convincingly in front of us.

Now believe it or not, I don't think John Reid or Tony Blair are bad men, but they're weak, self serving men and they will make a drama out of a crisis, especially if it keeps them in power a few more years. That kind of short term thinking, will have the people of this country giving up precious liberties so the politicians of the day can stay in power.

Ultimately, we have to realise that the government can't keep us safe, they don't have the resources, all they can do, is keep us quiet. If we let them take away our liberties, that's exactly what they'll be doing.

Just ask that 75 year old guy who was dragged out of the labour conference in handcuffs for heckling under the anti-terrorism laws. Sure, they apologised afterwards, but it should never have happened in the first place, and the scary thing is, what they did is perfectly legal, they didn't have to apologise at all, no laws were broken.

Ken, you may need more (self) controls but I don't. Judging by your rabidly ill-informed and over hasty post I would have to say yes. And just what is wrong with doing good ('do gooders') fascist boy? Better than hating everyone and everything 'cos you don't understand it. Must be something to do with living in Glenrothes, not exactly known as a seat of learning is it?

cheers

Quote #130 "We are at the top table LOL, Blairs cabinet is full of Scots and John Reid, (Scot) the guy introducing these new measures being home secetary."

Agreed. Unfortunately, and somewhat bizarrely, this actually makes rule from Westminster sound safer. At least there is some danger of the English electorate throwing these guys out. That wouldn't happen on a purely Scottish vote.

A snap general election anyone?

Terry, stay as you are. Do you have any funds which you need to move from - say - a goldmine in your old country ? I can give you my bank account number , no problem.

Allahu Akbar

Imagine the uproar if the Polish Immigrants had beards and sandals.

You don't get it do you? Sure there are some dangerous people around who if they've been 'sleepers' for years will have no criminal record and are unlikely to have been under surveillance. The only way round this is to keep everybody under surveillance all the time. but to pulls a stunt like that you have to frighten folk into a state of numbed acceptance. First teach them how not to spell, then how not to think. Maybe I'm maybe I'm being unkind in my assessment, though: it could just be that Lord Sainsbury's loyalty points scheme isn't working so well and this is just the backup system.
Anyway if we all hold our collective breath someone will have the bright idea of PRIVATISING the airport security, and under the 1998 Competiton Act, HMG will be obliged to put it out to tender. Then when it is in the hands of some Indonesian or North Korean low-wage company neither bound by UK niceties nor ideologically in tune with the British Way Of Life, we can confidently expect an over-zealous goon to hang up a few British Cabinet ministers by the thumbs.
At which point we can put the whole thing down to 'Cultural Differences' just like they do in Burma.

Iain #132, perfect, every word. Thanks

Always keep to hand the five fingers of Fraudulism

Why have we not found any evidence of bad doing amongst the 23 arrested yet?

Just a thought.

Terry @ 128,
What was (is) your native country? You say you are a Muslim but was persecuted for your beliefs?

Are you by any chance an Ahmadi, part of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community? Or the other one, the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement?

Is it true you were persecuted by other Muslims who held that your beliefs are false? Oh sorry, "heretical" by other mainstream Muslims.

hmm, you say you believe in "love, peace and brotherhood as well", and I respect that. But do you also subscribe to the incontrovertible belief that Islam is the be all and end all?

But, to answer your question, stay, by all means please do so. As long as you are not trying to convert our country or train the next generation of Islamic militants then good for you.

140. Tony Blugh / 4:32pm 17 Aug 2006

Why have we not found any evidence of bad doing amongst the 23 arrested yet?

Just a thought.

No doubt they will, they cannot be charged until all the evidence is gathered and that will take time hence the situation. I think the police would find it hard to extend the time allowed to detain them if they had nothing at all. It may turn out a few are released as there is no evidence or at least inconclusive evidence against them. We just have to wait I suppose, but it sure will be interesting when we find out.

Hugo,
Glenrothes isn't a seat of learning, but it's factories (Raytheon for example) make lots of component parts for American high tech weaponry.

#7 - you are a silly man, Ken. Would you advocate chip implants for all humans so that the powers that be can track our every move, at every time? Right? By your logic, if you've got nothing to hide then you won't have a problem with it.

Ken - i think you may have stolen my wallet. How about i stop by your house tonight and have a good look around. If you got nothing to hide...

#121 Alan - Orwell's novel WAS the future alan. We're not even there yet, but we're getting damn close. In fact, have you even read it?

140. Tony Blugh:

Because the police haven't released any information because the investigation is ongoing?

Is that the answer? Huh? Is it? Is it?

#141 Magic MArtha from Miami - do you know that Christianity can be mad to look just a silly as the way you painted Islam in that last post?

If you are a Christian MArtha, then you'll be aware that the faith lost the teachings of Christ more than 1700 years ago. What does that leave you every Sunday?

Do you not think Christians cause wars Martha? They've dropped the only nuclear bomb on a human populations, erased the native peoples of the "USA" and Canada and wrought havoc everywhere there's been a missionary sent, i.e., the entire face of the planet.

Christianity, Islam & Judaism have a lot to answer for.

#132 - Iain - John Reid is a psycho.

i have to say this all sounds a bit dodgy to me, all of a sudden there is a way or a means for them to get our details on a database.... and what did they find while all this was going on? nobody has come out and said they found any bombs or chemicals..... this is scaremongering to the n'th degree and we as a nation are lapping it up...... it is time for change, this IS a dictatorship.... we are told what we can and cannot say (freedom of speech... what happened to that)? what we can and cannot think. the quotes regarding the increased security are spot on.... why spend billions developing a system that will never work.... they are banging on about unemployment so why not decrease this with offering security type jobs to the semi or unskilled looking for work and pay them some of the billions they would waste on the scheme. i have nothing to hide but i do not agree that anyone should have my details because THEY SAY SO..... dictatorship again!!! they will be telling us what to wear next!

AJ - okay, factories then... it was a half hearted attempt to put Ken's frankly scary rant into perspective vis-a-vis students etc

personally I'd rather be a student than an ignorant bigot was all

It would be truly frightening if there were no religion-based terrorism in the world today. There always has been and I expect there always will be. It just so happens that the flavour of the century so far is muslim in background.
I like Stephen`s idea at #61 to microchip us, but feel it may prove a tad expensive across the entire population of the world. What about a simple number tattooed in indelible ink on the left forearm?

I have always found that if you poke a stick in a hornets nest you will provoke a rather painful response. That has been and remains the nature of Western policy in regard to the Middle East which is after all the cradle of civilisation, and the home to large reserves of this earths oil, a double edged sword if ever there was one.

When a 50 muslims die in a car bomb placed in a market to deliver maximum carnage do we mourn them in the way we did those who died in New York and London? Remember our governments were fore-warned as to the potential for civil war in Iraq, yet riding rough shod over the evidence and international opinion they invaded.

This is indicative of the history of western policy within that region over hundreds of years, a litany of lies, half truths, duplicity and greed. No wonder extreme Islam has so many willing dupes, one flawed ideology propagates another and so it is written.

If we are now to be hostages to our governments theft of our civil liberties through downright wreckless policies, then the very foundations of our great country stand to be eroded and will crumble under the daily chip,chip, chipping away.

Tony Blair and his cohorts are out of their depth they are playing cards with the devil and more than losing their souls they risk losing the soul of a nation. The main formulators of US policy are self interested billionaires who wish to see a new world order moulded in the image of their ultra right wing, christian fundamentalist doctrine.

Killing of innocents by terrorism is abhorrent cowardly and above all morally repugnant, lets not mince words here. And to all those out their bent on sacrificing yourself for such a flawed doctrine, think again!! Most of us know that the Muslim dominated Middle East gets a raw deal and if democracy alone allowed us we would effect a more just set of policies.

By bombing my kids or friends and family you piss off the very people who would like to see change

FAO 154. john

Bad spelling/typos don't blow up planes or fly them into tall buildings - try more relevant corrections closer to home.

Start with US foreign policy, or are you blind to all errors excluding typing?

This is just another effort by Mr Reid to look good, to increase his chance of suceeding Bliar and to make the populace more scared and therefore more grateful for the more restrictive measures which he is doubtless planning for the future.

David #151. Isn't this exactly what the Germans did to the Jews during world War 2? Just before they exterminated 6,000,000 of them!

On re-reading the article about biometrics, it seems the EEC should not escape wholly unscathed either. The EEC interior ministers seem to be supporting this one wholeheartedly.

I don't know if they are representative of the views of their various constituent countries. I rather doubt it, given Brussels attitude to the european constitution "If the answer is yes, we continue, if it's no, we carry on" - a direct quote from a french diplomat by the way.

I wonder what the european reaction to all of this is? The EU proposals are fairly radical. Passenger profiling, training of Imams in European Islam (I wonder if the Imams get a choice about being trained?)

Not one of you has pointed out how convenient this all is - what? the biometrics are ready to roll? you mean they've been just sitting there gathering dust, until, say a pre-text to wheel them out could be found?

And what's this, crazy commie John "Be Afraid" Reid announces a dastardly plot right on que?

Must be co-incidence.

I wonder how many so-called Christians who continually condemn Muslims realise that Jesus Christ is to a Muslim a prophet.

Many of my friends are muslim,hindu, and I hate to say Christian, as they think of themselves as methodist or baptist or catholic or protestant or or or.

The only way to have peace in this world is to treat people with the respect that you yourself would like to have. Israel will never have peace and frankly does not deserve it by their treatment of the palestinians. There are thousands of Palestinians and others who have been picked off the street and imprisoned without charge or trial. One soldier in Gaza and two on the Lebanese border is a drop in the ocean compared to the number that have been arrested for 'Israel's security'.

Note that I have visited Israel many times and have always been shocked by the different number plates for Jews, arabs or others. We as a nation condemned Aparteid, we as a nation condon what Israel is doing to people who have been living in refugee camps for 57 years.

Re #160
As a so called Christian who continually condems moslems yes I am aware of them having the Lord Jesus as a prophet, Isa they call him. I am not 100% certain of the facts but I think that early in his career mohamed and is followers were given sanctuary from the meccans by a Christian City, this was before his empire expanded.

As for the palestinians I am sure they would be treated with respect by Israel as soon as they stopped their terrorist behaviours and showed that they could be trusted not to blow themselves up to collect their 70 or so virgins.

153 John from texas
Thank You

Ok, for those of you freaking out about the government having samples of your DNA and finger prints... who cares??? I would rather be safe and not paranoid about my plane crashing into the effile tower then be paranoid that "omg the government has my urine sample!" This is obviously the wave of the future, and with terrorist activity on rise like never before, I wouldnt mind being finger printed whenever possible. I like my finger prints, they are hot and the government should know it.

Hi!! 160 and 161
Question for today!!

Did chicken come first or egg?

Re #164
I think it was the cockerell although in these days of cloning I am not sure

This, like most air travel security today, is security theater, not security. Identifying someone does nothing to assess their level of trustworthiness, and schemes that claim to do so are actually a disservice as they divert resources that could be employed to greater effect elsewhere while also creating false negatives -- allowing through people who are untrustworthy because they have been "properly identified". Consider the "trusted traveler" program in the US, where registered members are subject to significantly less scrutiny than others. Were I interested in disrupting air travel I'd throw ten of my operatives into the program and select the ones who got the good housekeeping seal of approval to be the ones to board flights with C4 tampons stuffed in their asses.

Screening for bad guys at the airport (or tube station, or ferry crossing) is the last and weakest form of defense. The most effective form of such screening is behavioral, something the Israelis puzzled out a long time ago (both for those departing _and_ arriving). Unfortunately most of what is done today is based on methodology -- someone tried to blow up a plane with explosive shoes so we'd best X-ray all shoes. This may protect against the last attack, but it's unlikely to do FA against the next.

Terrorism is asymmetric warfare at its best. If you respond to an attack by hardening for that attack, they can simply change the attack or choose a different target. Since the resources needed to secure targets far exceed the resources needed to attack them, such an approach will always result in failure. The only way to prevent the next attack is through interdiction before it gets close to happening, something that's the result of intelligence and police work, not by some mechanical response to a given style of attack.

The problem here is that "leaders" on both sides of the pond are actually fairly weak, and while it's largely ineffectual, secu

I live in France and have an ID as does everybody else here. I really don't see what people in Britain have against it. Its handy for various things such as supporting your identity to write a cheque or to show to police for check, get an official document from the prefecture etc. I don't have it on me all the time. Just when I think I will need it. Which means when travelling mainly. Don't need it to go to work every day.
As for biometrics for air travel, I won't mind that either.

Did John Reid receive approval from Bush & Company for his comments as they are reflections of wordings used by the US Administration to justify their actions. British and US publics seem to have forgotten that this situation results from the unjustified invasion of Iraq. Afganistan was justifiable as it was a training ground for terrorists.
It seems that goverment, whether UK or US, wants to keep people on edge in order to trample on their civil liberties.

Hi Stephen #61 don't worry Im sure that's on Big Brother's "to do" list!
Hi Kevin#43 yes, extremists/zealots come in all different colors!
Hi Sed#87 Yes, US Mid East Policy, not something to be all that proud of is it. But, really is there any going back, the hornets are out of the nest? What's to be done? Negotiate with those who would even trust us diplomatically?; I think there will be those who don't want to stop their Jihad, regardless.
Hi Kira#163 and others who would give up freedoms for a little bit of perceived safety...Not a good idea
Yes, Wiley #166 effort is better spent with intellegence gathering, and an alert and well informed citizenry

As I recall the Quran, I believe that Muslim belief is contrary to both the Hebrew and the Christian Bibles. It seems to me that Muslims believe that the rightful heir of Abraham was not Isaac, but Ishmael. They also believe that Jesus did not die on the cross, but was taken down alive. They do not agree that Jesus had messianic status, but accept him as a prophet. They also honor Mary the mother of Jesus.

The Muslims at some point also accused the Jews of rewriting their own Bible so that Isaac ended up the rightful heir, since the God of Israel is closely identified with the patriarchs Isaac and Jacob/Israel.

It is an historical fact that Judaism precedes Christianity by at least 1200 years, and Christianity precedes Islam by at least 670 years. Therefore the Muslim argument for the supercessionist validity of their holy book is subject to debate.

As for the present effort to use electronic screening in airports, I frankly do not see the point of it. These terrorists all seem to be more or less "off the radar" until they strike. It is impossible to know what someone will do before he does it, if he gives no signal of what is about to happen. It seems to me that working with the Muslim community to teach them their responsibilities as citizens would be far more effective.

We have IDs that we carry with us all the time here too. They are called drivers' licenses. They are photo ID cards with an individual number on each card. They are necessary to cash checks, visit hospital emergency rooms, make some credit purchases, among other uses. They are definitely ID cards in their use, so since we are already carrying them around, what is the problem?

I have a european drivers license (like most other Europeans). Does that make the world more secure? I have an american social security number -does that make the world more secure? My DNA is on file in my medical records accessible to all and sundry - does that make the world more secure? I have an american drivers' license number - does that make the world more secure? I have an american green card (alien registration card) - does that make the world more secure? I am willing to give a retina scan - but will it make the world more secure? I have no intentions of doing harm to anyone, but neither my DNA nor my retina scan nor any form of identification will assure the world of that fact. I am on international flights every year, and none of these documents make the world a safer place. How is this to work? Please, I'd really like to know how another form of identification will make the world a more secure place. Anyone???? Renate

Terry has said the most poignant thing here with his chicken and egg analogy. It doesn't really matter who punched who first now, it just has to stop and the simple 'Do unto others as you would wish to be done to you' says it all.

Melanie @ 169

Read my post #127.

Also, another couple of quotes from the past (both by Thomas Jefferson) that have resonance today:

1. Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

2. I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. [for Christianity, substitute whatever religion you choose]

#168 - Invasion of Afghanistan was justified because they had terror training camps??

The training camps were set up by the CIA to train what were known as the mujahideen to help them fight russia.

Al-Queda - means "the database". Database of what? A list of CIA recruits and partners in afghanistan who fought russia, supported trained and funded by the US.

The Taliban were having meetigs in the US about OIL 9 months prior to the invasion of the country. Their demands were too high for US OIL operators and as a result, they were invaded, toppled, and now there's a nasty big oil pipeline being contructed to take oil from the caspian basin, straight into US tankers.

Justified? Get lost.

#175 Alan, where did you get those "facts"? BTW, Al-Queda means the base in Arabic...not the, "database".

#176 - Steve check out this link:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/oil.html

If you are able to refute the claims and evidence, please post to that effect. I'd be interested in seeing it.

64. Rob - I have to ask you one question about this comment: "The "Suicide Bombers" are mostly traumatized kids, that are medically depressed, that, Seeing their families and countrymen being killed, homes bulldozed, land stolen…believing there is no hope, are prepared to give their life, asking the world for HELP to stop the slaughter and oppression by Israel and others in the Middle East."

Being someone who was in the city during 9/11 and knew people on two of the planes, I would like you to explain what these "kids" reasons were for 9/11? There are endless opinions about all of this as is in evidence from this and other posting boards, but this strikes me as an incredibly naïve thing to say.

I am no lover of Bush or Blair (the sooner GB is out of office the better), but terrorism started YEARS ago. I can still recall the bombings in the 1970s and while I find some of these measures bordering on lunacy and although I agree that mass hysteria is being encouraged by the media and government, it is hardly anything new. And I also recall that right after 9/11 nearly everyone was crying "bomb them, bomb them".

I do not approve of this war and for the record most Americans do not approve of the way Israel goes about things. But if any Briton (or anyone, period) thinks America is largely responsible for this situation then - no offense - they are just not THINKING. For 25 years the French & British governments worked endlessly to lure the American government into fighting the terrorism war. This website and most papers in the UK and France are chock full of criticism of the Clinton administration for NOT taking any stand.

As I say, I dislike Bush and this whole war, but I find the opinions here as ignorant as those presented by your America counterparts - ill informed or misinformed, stated from a standpoint of smug superiority and as such of no help at all (and having lived and worked in the UK se

#177 Ok, Alan, I went to the link, I don't have any evidence to refute what's on this web site. I don't know what to believe anymore. That's why I asked where you got your info. I can no longer believe the governments (plural intentional) and now I see an erosion of civil liberties and a growing fear leading to racism. I just think I better keep an open mind and study it all. I don't want to be a pawn of either extreme, but I do know the government can't keep us safe from ANY extremist wackos here or anywhere.

There is so much nonsense here, unless we stick to the point and stop using insulting comments we may lose these types of forums! having said that; TOM 34; Did you ever wonder why? MAIRI 40; Very clever, AJ 44; Oh what nice holidays those were! KEN 174; Another great quote From Thomas Jefferson is so poignant; As my memory serves me- "I shudder for my Country as I know thats Gods' justice is sure" NOW; is it only the UK and USA who are going to implement these new security measures? What about planes taking off from every other spot on Earth, What about Private planes, stolen planes, etc etc, how far can this nonsense be taken? the comment about holidaying at home may come sooner than we think, it happened here after 9/11, people were frightened to travel! We need a solution!

These Terror warnings are typical of Labour. The Government(Us, Britain) is planning terror attacks on us and will blame it on the middle east, it could be here in Britain, America, canada or Israel.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2006/170806dec...

#181 Bob

Well I had a look at the website link you posted. I guess you pays your money and believes what you want. I personally don't think that there's a massive conspiracy by the neo-fascists to keep us militarised and at war.

Yes, our goverments are exaggerating the threat for their own interests, aided and abetted by the press, for their own interests (sales). I don't think that they're in cahoots with hitler's last adherents though. They're a bit too politically leftwards for that.

Neither do I think that they're advocating a stalinist state ethic. We were closer to that in the UK in the 70's than we are now.

I think the west's attitude to all of this is a complex melange of personal self interest, greed by certain multinationals, the nationalistic interests of various states who are eager to keep the oil flowing and also, genuine altruism, in that some of the people involved are trying to make a difference to the middle east, politicians as well as others.

The soldiers fighting and dying on the ground out there aren't doing it for exxon, shell or BP, nor are they doing it to keep petrol below 50cents a gallon or £1 a litre or whatever. they're doing it to defend their country from a perceived threat and probably to try and clean up what they see as the "mess" of politics and terrorism.

As to further terror attacks, I'm sure that there will be some, I'm also reasonably sure that they won't be organised by our own governments.

Governments are notoriously leaky and a conspiracy of this nature would have the whistle blown on it very quickly I think - not all government employees are ruthless, faceless hit men who travel about in black helicopters.

They'd never get the budget for it anyway, what with the current cuts - perhaps we could PFI it to a band of professional mercenaries and pay the cost of the operation over the next 25 years.

So what will they do if the terrorists start using surface to air missiles? my point being that it will always be possible for determined people to blow up anything they want? This is just another assault on civil liberties and no doubt our political masters will find some way to make money for themselves and their catamites.

Please, those who keep saying "it's no hardship to carry ID" PLEASE read up on what i actually planned. The ID cards are just the easy soundbite. The real development is the database, and it will be the most damaging thing this government has yet done if they go through with it.

(Oh, and by the way Ken, it's been a long time since I was a student, and no I'm not an SSP bod either. I'm a middle-class business owner with an open mind.)

To all of you that are saying "what's the big deal about biometrics or fingerprints?" and are happy to provide them, be warned. You are about launch yourselves on to the slippery slope toward a police state. Joseph Goebbels, Heinrich Himmler, Josef Stalin and their ilk would have been proud of you. You are doing their work for them.

Another appropriate quote from Thomas Jefferson says it all:

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."

Lawrence@32 "Once again the vast majority must suffer to prevent a very small minority causing us harm."

We'll i'd rather suffer being finger printed than blown up, thanks.

Ken@185

I'm not too keen on Tony Blair myself but i'm quite sure he's not planning mass genocide like Mr Himmler and Goebbels did.

As for Thomas Jeffersons quote, its very appropriate. To remain silent and let the terrorists have their way would be very wrong. I'd rather live in a British police state than a British muslim fundamentalist one.

ken 185/ You quote"jefferson ,All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."The people of scotland have been silent for 300 years . which can we blame ,tyranny or the media?.

In re:

"The "Suicide Bombers" are mostly traumitised kids, that are medically depressed, that, Seeing their families and countrymen being killed, homes bulldozed, land stolen.."

and

"... believing there is no hope, are prepared to give their life, asking the world for HELP to stop the slaughter and oppression by Israel and others in the Middle East."

This is the single most insulting set of excuses for human slaughter I've yet to read. Assuming the causal analog accurate (which is highly debatable), I’m not sure I understand how such wholesale, indiscriminate, yet premeditated commitments to killing arises from it. Either these persons are responsible for their actions or they are not. I certainly would not level any blame on anyone other than those actors that chose (and continue to choose) to scheme and to take part in jihad homicidal madness. There have been untold numbers of traumatic childhoods for many of our fellows, and yet we haven’t observed such murderous tendencies, such as lashing out at perfect strangers, old and young alike, as we have from this community. One example close to my home comes to mind here. Certainly the slaves of the US did not take part in such acts. There have been a few radicals from that culture, but nothing on the scale that the entire world is experiencing now. This set of excuses is insulting the generations of victims who did not resort to becoming murders in response to their unfortunate circumstances. I personally had it pretty bad growing up, and I never once thought it appropriate to respond by killing innocent persons. I still don’t. That’s why principally, I am sickened by the barbarians that see it fit to do so. And it’s made worse that they are acting out in this way as if it is some sort of plea to end the slaughter and oppression that they have experienced. Well if they are so reviled by it, how do they see it fit to visit such pain unto others? The

First of all I am sorry you all have lost your ability to wretch from the hands of tyranical government your freedom. UK firearms confiscation and laws. Hope the new nazis don't get ya'. (U.S. Bill of Rights, Second Amendment: "the right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed") 70,000,000 armed "citizens" and 240,000,000 firearms in private hands.

To the best of my knowledge this article is not accurate. I work for the US Military and have for 36 years. This topic doesn't even exist in our discussions. The thought of a national identity card of any form in the U.S. just won't fly, sorry for the pun. If biometric measures are required for all passangers into/out of the EU and/or UK, kiss your American country cousins tourists good by. Some of you may like that. I am rather found of Scotland myself having vacationed there many times and even lived there. I worked an active U.S. attack Submarine program from there, and having a US DoD and BRIT MOD Top Secret clearances, I STILL don't trust my 'government' as it is run by human beings with all their frailties, greed, power hunger and wealth. Where else would a person spend $3,000,000 just to win the nomination to run for the US Senate, and IF he wins the election will get paid $175,000 a year. Good economics, huh? They ain't in it for the money, now are they?

My mother's family emigrated from Scotland 1860-1869. The first joined the Union army and have served every generation since. From Gettysburg Pennsylvania, July 1863 to Anzio, Iwo Jima to Guadalcanal.

By the way the other great Thomas Jefferson quote that came to mind is, "The tree of liberty must be fed with the blood of tyrants and patriots alike from time to time". I thank my Canadian cousin for his rememberence of the Ben Franklin quote, I am impressed. Way to go!
We have gotten ourselves in one hell of a mess with all of this political correctness crap.

#190 Carl
So are you saying Americans tourists don't want biometric measures used on them? You subject all foreign visitors(including myself) to fingerprinting and photographs at point of entry to the States. Mmm double standards.

Having read through all the comments what stuns me is that very few of them address the simple fact that IT WONT WORK. If you have a group of people who are willing to carry out atrocities then they all apply for passports etc, then who do you send on the mission. Those that are rejected or those who succeed. With this model you are doing the presection for them. It's stupid plain and simple. It's not security, it's not sensible application of inteligence. It's only going to create two lines at the airport those with certain stamps and those without them. Anybody care to guess which line the real terrorits are going to be in?

SOOO : If I have done business, legally or unknowingly, with someone who is subsequently considered a threat does that mean my freedom, excuse me, my PRIVIEGE, to travel/associate/communicate will be monitored/restricted without appeal or evan access to the accusation?

Hello everybody: What really should be banned is religion. The number of people who have been killed tortured and otherwise abused in the name of religion outweighs any other reason that I can think of. They are the cause of 90% of all the conflicts in history. The Catholics versus the Protestants versus the Lutherans etc. The Muslims versus the Hindu's versus everyone one else who is'nt a Muslim. It is totally sick. In addition the Muslim concept that by killing non muslims you become a "martyr" and will go to a supposed heaven with 47 or whatever, virgins as a reward is not only infantile and sick, but if it were true they would find that situation not heaven but hell, and a fate they really would deserve. What have the girls done to deserve that. Go for it girls, give em hell. they deserve it.

191 lesley, that's news to me. I'll have to check into that with Scots friends of mine that travel into the US. If so, you have a point.

#194 Howard from CA, sounds like a married man. 1 is more than enough.

A few observations:

a) An ID card is only acceptable if you're a member of an Armed Force - because the details it contains will help you in difficulties, and aren't likely to be sold on for commercial gain by creepy marketing companies. Otherwise, it's the worst indignity that an honest person can submit to;

b) John Reid is a thug in a suit - more aggressive and overtly vicious than diplomatic expert Tony Bliar, more devious than social expert John Prescott, less fat than financial expert Gordon Brown. If he manages to succeed Bliar as PM of this country, social meltdown is assured. The fact that he's managed to accede to his present position is testimony to the bankrupt state of British politics;

c) Islamic would-be terrorists need all the help they can get, in the matter of becoming dead without taking innocents with them. It's our job in life to make sure that they get that help;

d) Muslim fundamentalists are a joke. A Muslim fundamentalist state in Britain is a sick pipe-dream ... don't those people understand that about 2/3 of the indigenous Brits have been in uniform at some time, and would almost certainly welcome the sight of silly would-be Islamic insurgents in the cross-hairs of a rifle scope? Wise up, dickheads - you may think that you hold the whip hand, but you may be wrong;

e) The Middle East is a fly-blown, sun-blasted toilet. It was a toilet before oil was discovered, and it'll still be a toilet when oil is superceded as a source of energy. May the fleas of a thousand camels infect these peoples' arseholes - and may God help them (the fleas) for their lousy diet;

f) The UK is already a police state. The difference between Hitler's version and that of the present time is that the productive middle classes (and the motorists) are the New Jews - because they, being in a position of having something to lose, are the only section of society than can be threatened effectively;

g) Do you want to survive in a sta

#2
So you think it's crazy. Have you never been fingerprinted? To get a drivers license in the US you are fingerprinted. In the UK 1939 to 1945 we had Identity cards. What kind of dream world are you living in?
The only ones who'll balk are the ones who have something to hide IMO and BTW what ARE the 'better' ways to avoid terrorism?

You said:
This is crazy! Even Orwell could not have dreamed of this kind of "Big Brother" mentality. This government is out of control ! Before they fingerprint all of us, remove our DNA, build huge databases that will leak our most intimate and personal data out like a leaking sieve, this power and control mad government will not stop. There are other ways to control and prevent terrorism, this is not it!

There goes the travel plans. My partner and I were planning an extensive multi-country trip to Scotland (my homeland) and Europe next year. You can keep it. I have no desire to be treated as a criminal. Good luck with your tourist industry.

How about this idea? Everyone travelling by air must take off every stitch of clothing and change into a prison-style jumpsuit at the airport. No hand baggage allowed of any sort.

Everyone must go thru those x-ray machines that can tell if you have something concealed in any orifice. hell, let's take it a bit further..everyone should be given a knockout drug when they get on the plane so they sleep all the way to their destination.

All clothing and luggage is put on a freight plane that carries no passengers.

Would this help? Or maybe we can just start educating each other on the fact that we are all trapped on this planet for a finite time and we should try to get along. Perhaps someone could mention that no one has ever come back from the dead in the last 2,000 years to actually tell us which religion is the "right one" and until they do we should just accept that no one has the answer.

How much more power will yous all allow the goverment to have over us? Are yous all willing to eventually give up Liberty for your so much needed security? Or is there any people here that wont be feared by Terrorist threats and wont allow the government to take advantage of it to stop people questioning the dying Liberty for our country?

Maria,
Great idea, we would all look like crew from Star Trek or Blakes 7.

Plus the coming back from the dead argument is very profound. I personally only know one person that came back and he never mentioned a god, just a massive floodlight.

I fear the orifice plan though. Britain and America might afford fancy xray machines, but places like The Gambia would rely on the rubber glove approach!

>ALEC157. Regarding the Germans WW2 and the Jewish population there is a teensy difference. The jews did not wear suicide belts, fly planes into tall buildings,bomb trains in Spain and India, passengers travelling in the London Underground and last by no means. kill thier own people (Iraq).

WHAT!! fingerprinted (or iris scans) everyone who's getting on plane. (Treat everyone as crimanals, I think this could cause problems.)

WHY because of the terrorists threat, too public saftey (it's clear that their sugesting that everyone is potental terrorist, may be it's true but then again I'm great beliver that most people would not want to hurt another)

HOW much will this cost in money and in time! (This Could be a big waste of time, money and other resouses.)

WHEN are they going to do this at the checkin point or before they board the plain! (Will this cause more ques, hours of waiting.)

WHO will be incharge of this! (Are they going to permitly keep these details about the travelers)

They've lost the plot a wee bit. Terrorists will find away around anything that stands in their way, they plan these attachs after all, WHO knows for HOW long!!

Experts from MI5 & MI6 have already spoken out against ID cards. Far from providing security, they will enable full implementation of the fascist police state. It has been reported within the past week or so that the biometric code used in passports has already been cracked. As has already been stated, Reid is just a grandstanding thug, who is attempting to seize power by fear. Fingerprinting etc. is just a vehicle for his unsavoury ambition.

The answer to terrorism, which is always a response to injustice, is to tackle the problem at source. The UK was the prime mover in the creation of current Middle-east states. There is now some evidence that Americans are waking up to the dangers to their freedom posed by the Neocon ideology, which is based upon lies and driven by a reptilian view of humanity. New Labour are, of course, our neocons. Surely, only the ignorant are now persuaded by their slithering evasions and ludicrous posturing.

Europeans should start by owning up to our genocides in every other continent. How many people even know that we hunted the Tasmanian aborigines to extinction and that it was still legal to hunt San bushmen for sport in S. Africa until the early 20th century? The Americans have never really acknowledged their crimes against the native population and have instead papered over their true history with idolatrous flag worship, ultra-nationalism and profit-seeking militarism.

Let there be more light !

Wow quite afew comments,heres another to think about.
1. A film can be placed over the fingers to change the prnt patern,
2. A contact lens can mask the iris scan.
3. ID cards can be forged to near perfection.
Here in Australia [NSW] drivers licences were forged in the Asian area and could not be detected.

I note there seems to be a bit of blame going towards Blair and Bush also to Howard in this Country.Please remeber its not them but the name less group that controls the Govts.of this World..

Some thing else to make you think,back in the 60's there was a Credit squeeze in the US,the UK & Aust at app the same time,even since the 60's there has been various rate change all at app the same time,WHY because the same person controls the Bank of America -the Bank of England and the Reserve Bank of Australia [he likes to get some of his money back]

Well said Chris (n°205). Address the root problems.
One of them being the Isreali occupation. They should leave the West Bank as they did with the Gaza strip.
If they could do that, then mayber in a distant future they could aspire to a one state solution for the region. Tendancy of countries is to regroup for economic prosperity. One can hope.

Fingerprint and iris scans, yes if we must, but no airport security type is ever going to put his dirty little digit up my gary glitter. That is the exclusive preserve of my proctologist.

To Kevin, Leith, who called Tom, Aberdeen a racist: When you submitted your own list, what precisely dose that make you? And what exactly were the Japanese doing that brought Nagasaki and Hiroshima upon them, making tea? You give racism a bad name.

Im sorry but this Government is just looking for another way to control its people, Im fed up of its so called protecting us by silly big brother like laws. Poor Orwell must be wonder just what he started. Im sure even this is beyond what he ever could imagine. I think it is getting out of control and people have ot stand up for our rights as fingerprinting ythe whole population anytime we go to an airport is not only time consuming, but it costs money too. All fingerprints will then go into a massive database which lets face it will be hacked into, and used for puropses other than that it was made for. Its riduculous.
I can see the reasons they want to do it but this is just not the answer. think again boys! We will not let this happen.

Here in Australia [NSW] drivers licences were forged in the Asian area and could not be detected.

Brian206, how do you know about this?

PhiliP@197"f) The UK is already a police state. The difference between Hitler's version and that of the present time is that the productive middle classes (and the motorists) are the New Jews - because they, being in a position of having something to lose, are the only section of society than can be threatened effectively;"

Yes, and getting a speeding fine when you are speeding/paying road tax is just like being rounded up and gassed. What world are you living in?

kyBosch "There goes the travel plans. My partner and I were planning an extensive multi-country trip to Scotland (my homeland) and Europe next year. You can keep it. I have no desire to be treated as a criminal. Good luck with your tourist industry."

Gee thanks, i'd be happy to get blown up just so long as you get to visit the old country without too much hassel.

Chip the population at birth,then make us pay a
rental fee for the rest of our puff,s.

Kenny #212. I took Philip's post to be ironic. I was going to say you can't take seriously a Prime Minister whose outbursts against 'terrorists', paedophiles, benefit fraudsters, and speeding motorists are expected to be afforded equivalent moral authority. But actually, I take him very seriously indeed.

I read in the Independent yesterday that since May 1997 there have been 3203 new offences added to the statute books. They do not yet include 'disagreeing with Tony Blair' but I fear we are getting there!

Tom @ 34 from Aberdeen - read this & ponder your racist words:
1. In 1881 the tsar of Russia was assassinated by:
a. a Russian terrorist
b. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

2. In 1886 a bomb exploded at a demonstration in Chicago killing seven police
officers and demonstrators and injuring 67.
Who was responsible?
a. labor extremists
b. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

3. Between 1889 and 1909 over 1700 African-Americans were lynched in the
United States by:
a. white Southern extremists
b. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

4. In 1894 the president of France was assassinated by:
a. a French terrorist
b. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

5. In 1897 the premier of Spain was assassinated by:
a. a Spanish terrorist
b. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

6. In 1898 the empress of Austria was assassinated by:
a. a Austrian terrorist
b. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

7. In 1900 the king of Italy was assassinated by:
a. an Italian terrorist
b. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

8. In 1901 the president of the United States was assassinated by:
a. an American terrorist
b. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

9. In 1914 who assassinated Archduke Ferdinand of Austria-Hungar, starting the
First World War that resulted in at least 20 million deaths?
a. a Bosnian terrorist
b. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

10. Who launched suicide attacks in explosive laden aircraft on American
warships in 1945, sinking 40 ships?
a. Japanese Kamikaze pilots
b. Muslim male extremists mostly between t

This is ludicrous considering that most of the facts of 9-11 point to government complicity. The proof? Obstruction of investigation before and after the fact, buildings collapsing in ways that could only be explained by planted explosives, the (still) unexplained collapse of WTC-7, the NORAD failure, planes being flown in ways the alleged hijackers could not have flown them, some of those very hijackers still being alive, no Arab names on any passenger manifest, no verified airport security video tapes of Arab hijackers boarding. American Airline flights 11 and 77 were not scheduled 9/11 in the official BTS data base. The two AA airliner tail numbers were not deregistered until January 14, 2002 despite FAA regulations requiring deregistration within 24 hours. The two alleged United Airlines tail numbers were not deregistered until September 28, 2005. There is no record of hull insurance being paid on any of the allegedly lost aircraft.
There isn't just one smoking gun here - there are dozens! To ignore these crucial facts leaves in place the people who did it, and allows this bogus "war on terror" to be used as justification for the current administration's abuses. 9/11 has been used to justify 99% of current government abuses. To dismiss government complicity in 9-11 leaves open the distinct possibility that this kind of attack could be used again to justify further abuses.

Not all Alaskans are loonies (see "Joe" supra)

To the Californian who said he didn't mind being fingerprinted because he had nothing to hide - well, wait for the false positives!!!

Anyone who thinks fingerprinting is close to 100 per cent foolproof lives in the same not-quite-so-parallel universe as my fellow Alaskan (see preceding comment)

The comments that fingerprinting accomplishes little until you have otherwise identified someone as a terrorist are exactly correct - and if you have already identified the person as such, why do you have to rely upon such a fallible method of identification as fingerprinting? I think I smell a politician trying to make hay here

Dear Citizens of the UK,

You are being duped. You are being had!

Your government, along with all the New World Order, Occultists are out for one thing alone -- to have absolute control over your lives.

Do not let them get away with this Stalanist plan. Those proposing this scam are TRAITORS.

Think about this:

The so-called Muslims terrorists did NOT have tickets.

The so-called Muslims terrorists did NOT have passports.

The so-called Muslims terrorists did NOT have bombs.

Read the following link.
http://www.conspiracypenpal.com/rants/theyhate.htm

You are nothing more than cattle to your treasonous politicians. Please wake up. The politicians proposing these draconian measures ARE the terrorists!

Dear All
The situation in the UK is a direct result of years of politicians of various parties watching situations develop and doing nothing about it. All this is capped by Blair’s open door policy of recent years.

We are left where no one defends our creed, culture and country. It’s all about the minorities not the majority. The often quoted “it may offend the ethnic minorities” well what about the majority, cant fly the flag, cant make Christmas cards in school, Christmas lights, cant sing certain hyms, Bha Bha Rainbow sheep I ask you. It’s time to eradicate this madness from the UK.

The Human Right Act, and other assorted EU laws, should be scrapped. We have to be in control of our country. The ballot box is the means, we are the majority. Sadly none of the existing political parties are capable of doing what needs to be done. So we need a new vehicle to move forward, it has to be from the far right. I don’t see any alternatives, I don’t think anything else will work. The politician have failed our creed, culture and country. It’s time to change.

The longest journey starts with the first step, this step need to be taken sooner rather than later if we are to have a country at all.

Clansman

Dear Citiizens of the UK,

James number 219 is absolute correct. These new police state, Nazi tactics are being used to enslave us all. In the US we are being told the same garbage about having to give up some of our freedoms for so-called secuirty, this is a lie folks. September 11th in our country was an inside job and so were the london bomings in yours. We must wake up and resist the New World Order! I represent a group of Christians dedicated to fightng the New World Order and taking a stand for Jesus Christ and we condemn the modern worldwide police state that is being forced on us. go to our website at www.theresistanceforchrist.com and check out Alex Jone's website at www.infowars.com for more info about what we have said.

Patrick Henry
The Resistance For Christ

Power to the resistance and praise the Lord!

Kenny 211
Rfr Brian 206
This was reported on either TT or ACA 2-3 weeks ago.

tony blair and his cronies must love this terror plot. they are go ing to try to use it to hit out at citizens freedoms. in fact the terrorists have actually won they dont have to let off bombs our free western governments are destroying our freedom by their reaction to this so called plot, i sometimes wonder which of the western security services thought it up

At this rate we will soon have to check in wearing nothing but our underwear and then slip into something more comfortable or decent after we pass security.