Yes John. But dont you think we should first stop bombing their countries? Blair may deny it but his own MPs state clearly that Iraq war has made Britain a target for terrorism. Police know it, experts know, ordinary public know it. Only Bush and Blair seems to dont get it. We know why. They lied to get into illegal wars.

This is what INDIA is trying to prove since last 50 [?????] years and now the world is realising the things. I do not think that it is due to bombing on their country. Instead of that US is giving financial aid to PAK government.

- Just finish this..!

An early reaction in part of Canada was that GWB and TB needed a diversion. Watch elsewhere.

Always keep to hand the five fingers of Fraudulism

You know everybody makes me laugh. Here we are defending either Israel, Lebanon, Iraq or guide dogs for the blind. At the end of the day, we either embrace Islamic terrorism or we fight it. It's no use mud slinging ie messrs Bush & Blair, what is done is done. The sad point is that terrorism is here and it sure aint going away fast even if we did get rid of the terrible twins.

I still do not understand why the US and Britain do not clean up the terror camps in Pakistan. Its very clear that Terrorism will be there as long as terror camps sponsored by pakistan government, their intelligence agency remain. So Bush and Blair should understand that War on Terror should make sense only if it first clean up the terror camps in the Birthplace of Terrorists which is Pakistan. The Musharaff is fooling Bush and Blair that he is co-operating with them, in fact he is smartly allowing terror camps to blackmail western nations.

Clean up the terror camps, terrorists in Pakistan. Send your marines, top army to Pakistan to wipe out terrorism there.

Want to commend MI5 for saving thousands of lives; what a tense situation they must have been in getting it right! . its time the opposing sides realised that they will have to come to a peace deal or blow the whole world up ... this situation has been predicted as WW3 ... and there will be no winners .... so you muslim fundamentalists who think you can change the world by killing people, I know you totally believe in what you are doing ... but when you go ... you will have a lot to answer for ... and do you know who you will face? Yourselves! Did you know that? and you will answer for every life you took or participated in to take ... And I'm grateful to know that you will have a chance of redemption but you will have to face full on what you have done ... I wish I could be a fly on the wall on the day of your redemption! This problem is based on a long history and if only the opposing parties woudl be willing to go back far enough to understand that they both have acceptable demands ... there could be a solution and soon ......

Read Enoch Powell's Rivers of Blood speech when he was branded a racist. It's happening. Growing up in Glasgow I saw the immigration floodgates opened to a culture that would never assimilate into British society. Radical Islam hates us. Be as PC as you want, they don't care about anything but their hatred of Christians, Jews and anything else that is not of their belief. You can't blame Bush, Blair et al for a culture that is steeped in hate. Not all Muslims are terrorists but almost every terrorist is Muslim. Do we wait until it's too late or do we fight it now? Before the blogs start. I walked in the peace marches in the '60's, agreed that the Catholics in N. Ireland had a legitimate gripe until they started blowing up innocent civilians on purpose and know some Muslims personally who would be too afraid to speak out (who can blame them).

"You know everybody makes me laugh. Here we are defending either Israel, Lebanon, Iraq or guide dogs for the blind. At the end of the day, we either embrace Islamic terrorism or we fight it. It's no use mud slinging ie messrs Bush & Blair, what is done is done. The sad point is that terrorism is here and it sure aint going away fast even if we did get rid of the terrible twins."

I work for Guide Dogs for the Blind, thank you very much. We are very much worth defending.

Why do these so-called terror plots always conveniently happen when the masses are finally coming to their senses in discovering the truth about major issues in a "certain" part of the world? Now, another excuse to fear Muslims and support Israel. Yay.

It is very easy but sily to blame Pakistan for each & every bad act.People tend to forget that it was on the basis of information provided by Pakistan that this plot was foiled.If every thing is attributed to Pakistan then how do you explain the involvement of a teenager recently converted to Islam.
The underlying reasons are that Muslims all over the world have been subjugated by America and it's allies.It is adopting a murderous policy in West Asia along with Israel.Iraq has been invaded for no fault at all killing & maiming thousands.Indians want to grab Kashmir by crying hoarse.This is not done.

The first step towards defeating the terrorists: stop blaming ourselves
Gerard Baker



THERE’S A familiar ritual each time an operation to thwart a putative terrorist incident dominates the news. After the public’s initial expressions of relief and shuddering contemplation of what might have been, a rising chorus of sceptics takes over, with a string of questions and hypotheses.
Was it really a serious terrorist plot, or only a bunch of misguided, alienated Muslim kids larking about with a chemistry set and a mobile phone? Sometimes, unfortunately, as with this summer’s ludicrously overplayed Miami “plot” to blow up buildings in Chicago, in which the plotters had got as far as purchasing some boots but not much else, overzealous authorities bring this sort of suspicion on themselves. But you can guarantee that every incident now, whatever the evidence, will be treated with such derisive doubt. If the police had got to the 9/11 hijackers or the 7/7 bombers in time, a sizeable chunk of respectable opinion would have dismissed them as idealistic young men with no real capacity or intent to cause harm.

The scepticism is then embellished by the conspiracy-as-diversion theory. How convenient, cluck the doubters, with rolled eyes and theatrical sarcasm, just as the Government’s got some new bonfire of civil liberties planned; or just as President Bush’s poll numbers are collapsing; or just as Israel is stepping up its ground attacks in southern Lebanon.

Then, of course, whether real or imaginary or government-authored, the cynics will say the plot inevitably has its roots in our own culpability. If we hadn’t invaded Iraq, if Tony Blair weren’t George Bush’s agent of oil-fuelled imperialism, if Israel weren’t killing innocents in Lebanon, this wouldn’t have happened.

It is a neatly comprehensive schema of cynicism. If the plot turns out to be a damp squib, or the police have made some ghastly error, th

It’s too early to say with any confidence yet, but it looks as though yesterday’s plot to blow up US-bound aircraft from the UK was closer to the 9/11 tragedy than the Miami-Chicago farce. If the police and intelligence authorities have succeeded in foiling such a murderous plan, the correct response is one of immense gratitude to them, pride in our security institutions and continued vigilance against future plots.

But we should also remember that our continuing existence lies not just in inconvenient security measures and uncomfortably intrusive intelligence activities, but in a grand global strategy. Success requires, in addition to the tiresome banalities of long check-in queues and tighter limits on hand luggage, a commitment, whatever the costs, to eradicate the deep global political causes that threaten us.

And for this it just won’t do to claim it’s all about bad US foreign policy. It is repetitive but necessary to point out that we didn’t start this war when we invaded Iraq. The attacks on 9/11 were planned not only before we invaded, but during a time when the US was expending extraordinary effort to try to forge a lasting settlement between Israel and the Palestinians.

And if our actions have radicalised the jihadists we should remember that they are animated at least as much by our ridding Afghanistan of their spiritual brethren, the Taleban, as they are by whatever crimes the US may have committed in Baghdad.

The same applies to Israel and Lebanon. Not only is the current war the direct result of Hezbollah’s aggression, its deeper causes lie in the continued determination of Israel’s enemies, increasingly emboldened by Tehran, to liquidate the Jewish state.

Few can look at events in Iraq or Lebanon today with optimism, but it would be dangerous folly to assume, as some do, that the West should retreat, beating its breast and promising never to offend again.

Events such as yesterday’s near-miss should remind u

all these threats to modernity.

I will grant you that the Iraq war has been characterised, in conception and execution, by blunder after blunder. And it is certainly possible that, in their failures there, the US and Britain have made the world more unstable, not less. But we should not, in our frustration, confuse the real enemies here. We should not mistake the unlooked-for dangers caused by blunders and arrogance in Washington for the targeted threats posed by nihilism and hatred in much of the Middle East, and in some of our own cities.

Yesterday provided us with yet another glimpse of the awful reality of our long war and associated miseries. We must be very careful not to ascribe their creation to our own errors.

You guys talk about racism yet you dont realize that you are being racist too. Just because there are terrorists of pakistani descent and or are muslim you blame all pakistanis or muslims of being terrorists, not all are terrorists. You don't realize that if pakistan's government had not warned british officials that the attack would have been successful yet you still blame pakistani people and muslims. Talk about contradicting yourselves. There are bad people in the world no matter what religion they are, just because one christian or jew murders a group of people does not mean that all jews or christians are murderers. I myself am very sad that this is how the world has become. What would have the terrorists gotten out of this, nothing. I'm also mad but that does not give me the right to blame all muslims or pakistani people for terrorism throughout the world.

Here is a simple solution to all the security-related problems of modern passenger air travel. Passengers will report to a medical unit at the airport where they will receive a general anaesthetic. They will then be placed in padded boxes with temperature control and an air supply, rather on the lines of "2001 -- a space Odyssey", and shipped to their destination by express air freight. Their luggage will be shipped separately. Upon arrival at their destination they will be resuscitated, given a cup of coffee or tea, and reunited with their luggage, and go through Customs and Immigration in the usual way. It may come to that.

It seems hard to believe that Britain in the US dont know where these people that prey on innocent people.
Why dont they just get them where ever they are in any country that Britain and US and any other democratic nation can prove that they being harbored, sheltered, provided with financial means by countries any where in the world that can be proven for a fact just tell the government's of those countries to give them up or we'll be coming for them with our full military powers. I say it's time to turn the dogs of war lose.

Enoch Powell was right!

Gee Wallace, I hadn't realised that this situation could be resolved so easily. Why don't you give GWB a call and fill him in?

It's disgusting to blame either all Pakistanis or all Moslems for incidents such as this.

Did we blame all Irish Catholics for 30 years of IRA terrorism? It is inronic that this major terror alert comes the day after we had Scottish thugs wandering through London chanting pro-IRA slogans.

If the target was 10 planes we need to get inside the heads of why a minimum of 10 (probably 20) young men or women would be prepared to commit murder by suicide. How do we get inside the minds of these people. Who are the puppet masters - these are the people who should be targeted and eliminated.

We need not to only prevent the bombs but we need to stop the seemingly never-ending supply of suicide bombers - not an easy task.

I have to be a skeptic despite Gerard Baker. This is just way to convinient. Weren't we all assured the London Tube Bombers were Al Quida. Wasn't the brazilian "running and leaping barricades" to get on the tube before five waring shots were put into his brain. The Miami bombers plans for Chicago anyone....

Looks like a clear cut case of Blair and Bush needing some "new terror" to shore up support, especially after the democrats have really started pushing the message that the war in Iraq is wrong.

I have little doubt that two years from now we will look back on this incident as a joke, except teh joke will be on us as Bush and Blair continue in power.

Bravo, Gerard Baker! Your articulate analysis is a breath of fresh air. Thank you.

TIP OF THE DAY........

why not with all muslim..pakistani..or blacks for that matter....take all the bones out ,and make them into wet suits....or better still ...nuke the B@##+=ds
why oh why could we not have listened to ENOCH POWELL..??????????..

i know what we could and should do ....lets all ..that only applys to white people born and bred in scotland....lets all BOYCOTT all shops with a pakistani in it or serving in it..and lets see how long it is before they return to the country of there birth....i for one will not spend a single penny from this day forth in a asian shop...i am sick and tired of them sending there money home to grandma so they can send more of there so called family over here..just to open up another shop......JUST REMEMBER.....THERE AINT NO BLACK IN THE UNION JACK......

Bush talks about 'this nation' being at work with terrorists, is he forgetting that the plot was thwarted in Britain which mean Brits would have been killed. Thanks to Tony Blair for brownnosing Bush!

sorry meant 'at war'

Once again, we're probably being made to look in the wrong direction ... because in my opinion the real danger in this case is environmental, not social or political, resulting from the sudden lack of a certain kind of pollution in the atmosphere as a consequence of grounding so many aircraft at once. If you'd like more background information to see why I think that, Google 'Global dimming', read the various articles, and then draw your own conclusions.

The mechanism of Global Dimming is very simple - the longer the aircraft are grounded, the less small-particle pollution they can leave in the atmosphere, the more extensive the steady effects of rainfall and mist on washing the existing grime out of the air (which will then allow more sunlight through to add to Global Warming and UV-related radiation problems), and the less overall control Global Dimming will have over the effects of the excess carbon dioxide combustion by-product that shouldn't be there in the first place.

The only question remaining is 'how fine is the balance between Global Warming and Global Dimming, and how far can it safely be allowed to be upset?' It's possible that no-one knows that - Global Dimming as a mechanism is barely acknowledged even now, so there can't be an 'official' scientific position on it.

If I'm wrong in my supposition, nothing bad will happen (environmentally, in terms of increased iceberg meltdown and excess UV effects), and we'll carry on (after a fashion) just as the Americans did following 9/11.

If I'm right in my supposition, though, we'll see a new set of figures on the effects of reduced Global Dimming in a few days' time that will show how close we've come this time to runaway Global Warming.

I feel that, had the aircraft groundings continued for a few days more after 9/11, Global Warming would have run away to an irreversible conclusion on that occasion - and that one week of aircraft grounding would have been all that

Religion-Why is it, all the maniacs in the world think they are the "chosen" people? We are biological animals playing a very small bit part in the evolution of our planet.

In terms of the planet, humans are here for a very short time. The dinosaurs were around for 165 million years and have been gone 65 million years, we've been around 60,000 years max. We will not last another 2000 years, and no matter what we do to the planet, it will recover in time, without us.

We are without doubt the stupidest creature the planet has ever evolved, and if there is a God dropping in on his creations from time to time, we are going to have been around such a short time he's likely to miss us.

Life is short and precious - Just use your energy to enjoy it...

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"
(Diderot 1713-1784)

There is no justification for the taking of lives. Religion was created to give people guidance but has become the excuse for the killing of millions of people thoughout the world and though the ages.
Diderot had a point!

I'm travelling from Heathrow in a few days. I'm very concerned about the fact that hand luggage is now being put into the hold. Does this mean that anyone can now check in any dangerous substances without them even being scrutinised? (Cases are never searched before being put on the belt - as far as I'm aware). Airline staff ask a few ineffectual questions - e.g. Did you pack this bag yourself? etc. Anyone, particularly terrorists, can just lie and get their cases checked in. What use is security then?

The brightest light is in the darkest forest.

So Bob (16), You go on about racism. Yes I think we all know that not all muslims or pakistani's are terrorists, in fact most are not and are apalled that their countrymen are, however, after the 7/7 bombings the neighbors of those arrested were shocked and amazed that those sweet, considerate, quiet neighbors of theirs would be involved in such an atrocity. How do we know that our neighbors aren't involved in just such a thing? We don't! I don't however think that we should automatically suspect every muslim or pakistani either. There are plenty of other's who convert to the idea of 'kill the infidel'. These wars are just an excuse for them to come out of the wordwork and do harm. They're an open door for radicals and terrorist minded people.

As for Simon (22) Mr. Skeptic... I suggest they pack a plane full of muslim or pakistani looking people and sit him in the middle... would he be nervous? I'll bet if the plots for 9/11 and 7/7 had been foiled he'd have said the same thing.

It's easy to blame Bush and Blair, people seem to need someone to blame for their problems and the problems of the world. I wonder how anyone in their shoes would handle things though. Two men don't run the world all by themselves you know. There are hundreds of people involved before Bush and Blair are given the information that creates the situation that they respond to. It starts much lower on the ladder folks. Wake up and smell the invisible ink!

I work between New York and London and often I'm nervous flying that route as often as I am required to. These days you just never know. Anything is an excuse to bring the crazies out of from under their rocks. It doesn't take a US President and a UK Prime Minister to do it.

I may be a cynic but, with a pro-war politico in the USA losing a vote and overall western public opinion going against this so called war on terror, isn't it a bit coincidental that we are suddenly under this terrible threat. I can't agree with either of the opposing religious views of the world but geez a break, lets get sensible! Religion, a perennial plague !

Jack (32) I agree with you.

I also believe many people realise religion is being used by hidden figures to brainwash others. If it wasn't religion it would be something else. There are so many theories as to why people decide it is their destiny to be blown up taking others with them. We can either try and work out how to stop people who live here wanting to kill there fellow countrymen or just fight everyone. The main thing is to pull together and try to keep living our lives as we want with the freedom that previous generations fought for us to have. Fighting over whether TB and GB are just winding us up won't help, we all know it is a possibility that such a thing could happen.

No matter what is said religion is always the cause of wars every where on earh.Everybody just look out for everyone else,peace man.

I am no conspiracy fan, but note that the furore, delays and disruption were triggered by the alleged terrorsists embarking on a "dry run". They could have been seized, details of their devices discovered and security weaknesses exposed without having to cause the chaos witnessed.

Security forces just love this kind of stuff. Its what they are for. I don't blame them. Our leaders on the other hand behave as if they want us to be in fear of terrorists so we will accept greater government autonomy with fewer safeguards. I don't want to carry a pass, Tony. We are not yet a police state.

The US deserve's Bush and knew what they were getting when they elected him, but look what power has done to Tony. The master of spin has shown through actions of his own appointees that massaging media to cover unpleasant news is considered fair political game. I agree with whoever said "look elsewhere" further up this chat...

We should not change our behaviour at all for the nutters of Islam. My statistical risk as a five times a year traveller to the US is less in a plane than of becoming a gunshot victim while I am there.

George. In a bad year ten times as many Americans die from guns than in the twin towers. In a good year its about six times as many. Yet you accept this as a necessary adjunct of your cherished right to bear arms. This makes you a greater threat than the terrorists.

At least some of the Guantanamo inmates held without evidence are unfortunate victims of Afghani bounty hunters (civilians with the right to bear arms)who handed them over for $$.

Oh aye, he's a Taliban all right. How much for another three? Back in a tick.

The citizens of the land of the brave and home of the (supposed) free don't care.

Face facts friends, all religions, all of the time, seek to convince the foolish to believe in superstition and suppress rational thinking. Whether the zealots are Jewish, Muslim, Christian or UF

To all cynics, please! I just cant accomodate the idea that this is some sort of plot by Bush and Blair et al to re-ignite support for their war on terrorism. What wipe billions off the stock exchange?, lose an estimated 10 million a day in lost revenue?, which is just the tip of the iceberg. Scare people away from visiting the UK thus losing millions in tourism?, and so on....., do you really think so? I just cant see that!

I see the usual conspiracy theories are emerging after this event as they always do. So now, along with "JFK assasination was a conspiracy" and "they never landed on the moon - it was faked" we have "Bush and Blair made this up to distract from Lebanon or Irag or Afghanistan etc"
Seems to me that we dont need terrorists to destroy our society - we have plenty of our own who seem to loathe their own society and are ready to believe all the worst of their own but nothing bad about others.
Just a few reminders therefore;
Al Qaeda attacks and attacks by other Islamo-fascist groups were happening long before even 9/11. The Iraq war and the invasion of Afghanistan didnt happen until after 9/11. There was a previous conspiracy to blow up this number of planes - as long ago as 1995. (I presume the excuse then was that we had been involved in the crusades!)
It is also worth remembering that it was the Americans who came to the aid of a muslim community in Kosovo.
The sad truth is that there is a victim mentality embedded in the muslim community that refuses to take responsibility for its own problems (who's been killing most Iraqi's for a long time? - other muslims).
A smaller number of muslims takle this victim mentality and add to it a jihadist mentality that sees world events as a struggle with western values. A smaller number still think that the solution is to destroy the west and impose their own islamic fascist vision on the rest of us. They are death worshippers and like the janpanes kamikazes of WW2 they think that they can throw their lives away in the cause of their "God".
Do we simply abandon our goals in the face of such evil groups? No. neither should we abandon the millions of people in Iraq and Afghanistan who showed through their votes that they value their chance for freedom.
However we must get smarter. There is a time to fight and a time to make peace. The time to make pea

We need to stop fighting amongst ourselves, stop blaming each other and sort this mess out, the Islamic fanatics must be laughing their heads off!
Let me tell you something I was told 18 years ago by a devout Muslim fanatic trying to convert me to his religion, which coincidentally was before the first Irac war...."It is our duty to spread Islam across the world, we must disperse ourselves accordingly and be in place ready to fight from within when the call for Jihad comes, all non believers will be asked to convert to Islam and pledge allegiance to Mohammed, those that refuse will have their heads chopped off, women and children will be spared. It is our destiny and the Koran says so", also I was told of the training camps in Afghanistan etc. Well I was young and just laughed at such a preposterous notion, but as time has gone on I dont laugh anymore, I look back at what he said and think wow perhaps???

I'm apalled at how seldom you see muslims standing up and saying "these people (terrorists) don't represent us or our beliefs or how we lead our lives".

The majority of muslims are guilty of supporting terrorsim simply by being silent, by accepting it, by not standing up and decrying the terrorists. They give terrorists a breeding ground by being complacent. They cast themselves into the role of being victims of racism - yet they don't do much to stop the perception that all muslims are the same.

The only people I hear saying "they're not all like that" are politically correct westerners.

For Traveller in post no. 30.
Hold luggage is more secure as it is checked more rigourously, hence the reason why hand luggage has been banned.

I can't be bothered getting into the religious arguments, any decent person of any religious persuasion knows killing is wrong and it takes a deeply twisted individual to argue otherwise.

My sympathies to everyone whose holiday is being ruined by this. What a way to spend your "relaxing" time off work/study etc.

M: No6

Apologies, guide dogs and their owners are usually lovely.
My point was that the Islamic terrorists do not discriminate in death and that will include those who have rallied against Bush Blair and anybody else or cause. This "Jihad" or what ever it is started long before Bush and Blair sent troops in to Iraq.

Stuart 36: Could not agree more. Unfortunately, the Islamic fundamentalists have stated quite clearly that religion and politics are one and the same.

Last by no means, thank you Pakistan for your assistance in stopping a possible atrocity perhaps the Muslim community in the UK could do the same.

I can't beleive the society we live in today, that people would complain about being "inconvenienced" by the police/government stopping a terrorist threat is beyond me! Would you honestly rather be able to take your belongining on a plane and be blown up in the process than wait a bit longer in a que and be safe??!!?? It's just crazy - everyone's blaming the UK and the US, why can't you just blame the people who deserve to be blamed and leave the people who are trying to keep our county safe alone!
I don't agree with war but i do agree that there are far too many radicals in the world and something has to be done - all these people seem to understand is violence.

You can never please everybody but it's about time we started thanking our government and police force for what they do, they might not always get it right, we all make mistakes, we are only human after all but in the most part they keep us safe - look how many bombs are being dropped elsewhere in the world, as long as they're keeping the bombs from my doorstep i'm grateful

Why not change a threat into an opportunity? This is an ideal time for everyone to stop flying and start using trains again, especially business people, who are responsible for financing most domestic and European flights. It's easier to work on the train and you don't (usually) have to wait around forever at each end of your journey. Airport security checks are going to add more and more time to your journey, costing you money, so domestic flights especially are going to become pointless. Take the train - the environment and your stress levels will thank you for it!

Jill, I don't mean to be offensive, but this isn't really about taking the train is it? They've already bombed trains - remember Madrid?

Isn't it reassuring Mr Blair had his finger on the pulse, despite enjoying the hospitality of Sir Cliff in the Carribean. In true Statesman-like style he is able to oversee all the current problematic issues with an unfailing use of his dynamic leadership qualities.

Being able to thwart a 9/11 style attack from his poolside shows a nerve that has seldom been seen since Churchill. Also, dealing with the latest setbacks and casualties from Iraq and Afghanistan, whilst serving for a set against Sir Cliff, shows remarkable courage and bulldog-like spirit. Lets not forget Mr Blairs' tireless peace negotiations whilst applying sun block on Cherie's giant lips.

Mr Blair - surely a certainty for a Nobel Peace prize, maybe a Knighthood and definitely the Sportsman of the Year!

I think in the future if travelling our luggage should be forwarded maybe 1 week before our departure date. planes used for luggage only (a in cargo flights) and planes used as passengers with only clear plastic hand luggage. the planes for passengers could be altered with an extra level as in jumbos. Insurance companies could be reversed in emegencies (deaths ets) when having to travel cover the cost of buying a few things for use away.

I wish to thank our security services on doing a magnificent job in thwarting a very serious plot to cause death and destruction on a very large scale.

It seems that the UK have to look at the way the muslim communities in this country conduct themselves, and that means that they have to get a grip on how they go about controlling these radicals who are living in our communities.

Muslims in general have come to the UK to set a better life for themselves and their families.

If they feel that living in the UK is not to what they expected then the answer is very simple "LEAVE" , do not start trouble here.

When they came to the UK they accepted our way of life, and our politics, do not start changing the fabric of our society that has been fought over and changed for hundreds of years to arrive at what we have got now, maybe not to their liking, but again if you can't stand the heat in the kitchen go elsewhere.

We have all had enough, and it will reach a stage where our very tolerent British Society will just say enough is enough.

The Muslim communities have to get a grip on this problem, and I do think that time is running out fast for them to do this.

I do not wish to get involved in religious philosophy, but would point out that they are very lucky to come here to the UK and have that freedom to practice their religion, but do not start imposing it on others, or their way of life and politics.

These latest events that we are now seeing, highlights this very point.

We have now a battle going on in our own backyard, and British people have to stand very firm on what is a most dangerous situation.

It looks like that Britain is now becoming a center for Muslim extremists, and this should not be tolerated, by any member of our community.

Well I think that it was jolly decent of Tony Blair to spare some time to congratulate the police when he was on holiday.

I just hope that this storm in a teacup won't interrupt Cherie's shopping expeditions.

You stay right there having a good time Tony. Dont worry about us. I am sure that John Prescott is perfectly capable of looking after us all, assuming of course that anybody bothers to tell him what's going on.

PS: Would you like us to send over a few more personal security guards to make sure that no nasty people try to plant their wind-break on your beach?

Why the heck do we fly everywhere anyway? I've given up flying somewhere for a one hour meeting and wasting an entire day in the process.. It's utter lunacy so I now use video conferencing instead. If my clients don't like it then I suggest they pay for it. That usually shuts them up!

If we want to have a real impact on the number of flights then we need to invest in much better telecomms networks.

Dick, it's quite simple really - if one takes a two week holiday in Florida and sails to the destination, it means one has only 2 days holiday before having to depart. Surely this doesn't represent good value for money.

I'm getting increasingly frustrated with on the one hand the sceptiscm and denial that we have a real threat from Muslim extremists and on the other hand people trying to defend these atrocities because our foreign policies are somehow anti-muslim or because anti-terrorism operations target muslims.

No one seems brave enough to point out that Afganistan was invaded to remove a totalitarian regime who undoubtedly helped and protected the 9/11 organisers. Iraq has been a poorly implemented attempt to create a democracy out of a dictatorship but the only people who are killing muslims are other muslims. Israel may have been unwise in the actions they are taking but it is difficult to argue that they are not justified in their actions in the face of Hezbollah agression.

As for unfair policing if we were to be truly bigoted towards Muslims, travel disruption could be quickly ended by concentrating pre-flight searches on Muslims.

I have long believed that the rules regarding hand baggage were a farce, and that much tighter controls were required.

Nearly 4 years ago, I passed through Heathrow terminal 3. Whilst I was being frisked at security, two women went straight through the detector arch next to me, both carrying large drinks containers. I asked the security person why these had not been checked - everything else carried had to be put through the X-ray or was opened up. But its just drinks, I was told. How do you know its not liquid explosives, I replied, and I got that sort of look normally reserved for complete imbeciles. I wrote with my concerns to BAA and CAA, never got a reply but 10 months later was at least gratified to find a sign at Glasgow prohibiting the carrying of drinks through security.

More recently on a BA domestic flight a large group of bird watchers - probably twitchers - got on, all carrying tripods and telescopes etc in addition to cameras. I asked the flight attendant how these were allowed to be brought aboard. Oh, they didn't want them put in the hold, I was told. Anyway, they will have been through the x-ray. I was aghast. How on earth was the x-ray going to find out what was concealed in all those metal tubes. Shrugged shoulders told me all I needed to know.

All sharp objects have to be dumped before security. No matter, the air-side shopping will happily sell you razors and manicure sets and you can always steal the cutlery from the catering.

And as for all those laptops! There is enough free space inside, especially with a drive or part of the power pack removed, to conceal a devastating explosive device and still show the security that it is a working computer.

So a clamp down on hand baggage is not before time, and who knows, once people get used to it, it surely will speed up the queues at security, allow everyone to board quickly without the fight to stuff things into the overhead locker, and save us from thos

When we go to countries to visit or live we have to obey their culture or face deportation (best) or a very long term in jail (worst). Being born in this country does not automatically mean that you can bomb and maime people and then say you have the right to stay. Either get out (and stay out) to somewhere you can do that (if there is such a place)or obey the general morals that everyone else here live by. We have no problem with people of many cultures living peacefully together BUT when they try to dictate to us that we should change our culture to theirs then it is time to show them the door. As soon as someone goes over the score and commits acts like this then they loose all rights to stay here and this is when we should say that they are no longer human and hence the human rights issue is not longer valid to them.

Having read most of the postings on this issue it appears we have all forgotten Karl Marx saying something like -"If you want to take over the world you must get rid of the institute of marriage,the opiate of the masses, the church and then put fear into the people" How true??
not word for word but if you read "None dare call it conspiracy" you will get the idea.
Bush wants world domination and of course high oil prices to help his daddies holdings, along with barrister Tony his lapdog,who may incidently be sending his wife home from thier jollies to look after the human rights of twenty arrested "suspects"

James (#53) is spot on in highlighting the duty of those who purport to be civilised beings in Muslim communities to expose to the authorities those in their midst who are exhibiting irrational and radical tendencies. If those civilised beings do not so act, they are no better than those they seek to conceal and, by association, have to be considered equally guilty of the crimes of their relatives/neighbours - and should be treated accordingly.

Those who also purport to be moderates sometimes claim that the Koran does not justify killing human beings. They need to be far more vocal than they have been so far post 7/7, 21/7 and recent events. They need to stand up and be counted and shout the virtues of the Koran from the rooftops, renouncing those who use the Koran as justification for their anti-human bile and actions. For if the moderates do not, we will surely be entitled to believe that there is an ever-increasing trend amongst Muslim communities to accept that what the radicals preach is the acceptable way forward – and that would completely alienate Muslims from non-Muslims in Britain.

For our part, we need to change the policies of our discredited government over Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine which are clearly supported by only the merest minority in the UK. If that means storming Downing Street, to oust the spineless imbecile who is currently in residence, so be it.

The Terror Alert sure knocked Israel's terrorsit activities in Lebanon & Palestine off the front page...

Diverted attention away from the USA manipulating the UN "CeaseFire" Resolution to suit Israel's ambitions.

The mentality of those behind this "alleged" terrorist plot is the same as those who are responsible for the over 1800 deaths caused by muslim on muslim violence in Iraq in the month of July.
They have no respect for human life at all. They use as an excuse the foreign policy of the USA and UK. But there is a very simple solution for angry muslims here to get the troops out of Iraq. Try turning your energies to denouncing your murderous brothers and sisters in that country who bomb and shoot their fellow believers.

This is indeed a war of civilisations. It is a war of those of us who believe in democracy and a civil society (where we argue and debate our differing views and beliefs) against those who are happy to murder their religious brothers and sisters in the cause of their warped interpretation of their religion.

But then was always so with those who subscribe to fundamentalist beliefs whether they be zionists, muslim fascists or christian crusaders. Funny how the so called "Holy Land" has spawned three such murderous religions.
I also note the survey on the TV this week which showed a large majority of Muslims in this country do not believe in free speech. This is very troubling indeed and points to one reason why fundamentalist extremists find such a fertile recruiting ground within the Muslim community.

I would like the media and a large section of society to stop referring to Islamic terrorists/fundamentalists. Those people that are prepared to commit such acts of violence and murder (and those that have done so already) are terrorists.

Using/linking Islamic or Muslim (or any other religion not understood in the "west") with terrorism is feeding the minds of a small number of young, disenfranchised people to believe there is a cause to fight for. It is also leading to xenophobia in the vast majority of minds.

In a predominately Christian country, how many people would like it if Christian was appended to every barbaric act committed by Europeans/Americans? And there are plenty of such events to choose from - e.g. slavery, concentration camps, etc.

Let us all (every man, woman and child, in all parts of the world) seek first to understand (without arrogance) other religions, beliefs and cultures. Failure to do so will result in the plans and objectives being met of those that want to create religious wars and intolerance.

Can't we all just get along . . . ?

People: please read more closely the comments you are commenting on before doing so . . . many people seem to be hearing what they want (or don't want!) when reading others comments. As far as I've read, no one has said all muslims and all Pakistanis are to blame or are all terrorists, nor should they.

I quote: "Not all muslims are terrorists, but, so far, all terrorists appear to be muslim."

Open your eyes and ears!

If the 40 or so people involved in this blog can't even communicate with or understand each other, how is the rest of the world spose to?

David, if they were committing their acts in the name of Christianity or Buddisim or whatever (as the islamofacists are) then they would and should be called that. Dont make the mistake of thinking that Islam is just another religion to be treated equally, it isnt . It has some very important differences. Its the only major religion which clearly and unmistakeably calls for the sanctioned killing of those who leave it for instance (apostacy) its the only one who considers all non believers as lesser human beings, and worthy of disposing of. and its the only one which preachs world domination, ie the restablishment of the caliphate, which is what all this is really about.

David (#65): The fact is, these terrorists are proud to call themselves muslims and carry out terrorist acts in the name of their religion. I don't see many muslims trying to understand other religions.

What can I say, the people to blame for this is the Bureaucrats of the past, they brought them in Britain for cheap labour. Enoch Powell told them and he had the right Idea, “You are going to have problems with them in the future”? Was he right, YES. He said give each one of the family 1,000 Pounds and send them back to where they come from, he was branded as a racist and was voted down because there were too many Bureaucrats making money out of cheap labour which is typical with the Bureaucrats.

It’s funny how the Muslim people hate the Christian people but they want to live in a Christian Society, the reason why is so they can disrupt the Christian Society and this is just what they are doing.

I make this prediction now and please keep it on record, between 30 to 50 years from now there is going to be Civil War in all the democratic countries and it will be between Christians against Muslims, you only need to look back in history and what they are trying to do with the Jewish people in the past and present and there religious believes is the same as all other Christian Religions, they only practice it in a different way to others.

The reason I predict this is look back on history with powerful countries like the Roman Empire, the Inca Nation in Peru, Mayans in Mexico, North American Indians, Germany, Japan, Soviet Union with Communism, Etc, Etc, Etc. Now it is going to be the Muslims, they tried before in the past and failed, now they are trying again in their own way and it is about time the Bureaucrats in the Christian Societies done something about it before it is too late.

There is an old saying from away back in history not only the British and French but Romel in North Africa also found out. “You can’t trust an Arab”.

The Bureaucrats in Democratic Countries are trying to create a Multi Cultural Societies so we do not have wars which is impossible, as long as you have different Religions you have problems and this is

We need to take a few steps back on this and realise that Islam is most definately the root cause of this whole mess. Whereas it is also important to point out that the Ulster situation is different in that the RC Church was not the root cause. In this case Islam is the root cause and proving without question that Enoch Powell was absolutely correct. One underlying theme here is that these people are all in support of their religous crusade to destroy the west and our free culture.
We must destroy them now, quit blaming ourselves and take evasive action, protect our British culture and social liberties....Send them all to live in Syria, Iran, Pakistan, etc etc. and contain their hatred in their own environment, who cares if they were born in Britain.....they hate us so much...lets do the same and take to the streets and force them out. Bush and Blair are not to blame, Islam is to blame.

James (#53) is SO right. British society will not stand this nonsense from the immigrants for much longer and, sadly, there will more than likely be a backlash against any "religion" associated with terrorism. Whether the victims of such retaliation are peace loving or not. These muslim bombers don't care who their victims are or what affiliations they hold, so I think any retaliation will be equally indiscriminate.

James is also right in that we have allowed these people to come into our country (where many other countries wouldn't), put a strain on our systems, have allowed them to pursue their own way of life and the majority have just not integrated. Many have not taken the time to even learn English! Sure they want a better life for themselves, who doesn't, but they are NOT contributing very much at all and are doing at the expense of everyone else.

I didn't used to be a particularly racist person, but I am getting more and more angry at this Government's lack of immigration control and slow deportation. I am, unfortunately, now becoming more racist. The muslim community is attracting its own attackers by not weeding out its own bad apples. Especially as they know who these idiots are. I used to live in Bradford, and returning there now, it is a sorry mess and almost a ghetto.

If these "disenchanted" young muslims, or any immigrants for that matter, don't like it here - then just get out of our country, because that's what the majority of indigenous Brits would like. We will NOT bow to a fanatical, extremist religion whose intention is to take over the world by whatever means.

I echo other comments - Enoch Powell was right. He was vilified, but prophetic. No-one listened to him and just look where we are now. Rivers of Blood may well flow, but perhaps not in the way the bombers think..........

Mike (37) You are more learned than I am. Does the Koran really say that? I don’t doubt your word, but I must read more.

Surely the Christian Crusades were just that – therefore my argument about appending Christian to all barbaric acts committed by Europeans is not completely incorrect.

SC (68) You have proved my argument about seeking to understand (and without arrogance). Just because it is not reported does not mean that Muslims don't try to understand Christian societies (it wouldn't make for a very good news story). I suggest you read some of William Dalrymple's books, such as In Xanadu.

I am normally a tolerant person, I like to give people a bit of leeway, but this latest terrorist attempted atrocity has got me a tad pi**ed off. I agree with everyone who posted their beliefs that Moslems must blend in with UK society, and not impose their own beliefs on the natural residents. I seem to recall a few years ago a WW2 veteran being banned from hanging a Union Flag from his window because he lived in an 'Asian ethnic majority ' area, the reason- the Union Flag is racist, according to these 'ethnics'. This situation is playing right into the hands of the NF or whatever they call themselves nowadays, and I have to say that I believe more and more people will probably support them. I am not one of them but if the Islamic community in the UK do'nt condemn these acts wholeheartedly I may start to believe that maybe the NF have a point. Enough is enough.
P.S. All the conspiracy theorists saying this is just a diversion away from current foreign policies, gie yer heid a shake.

Back in the late 1960's MP Enoch Powell was in favour of repatriating immigrants, because in his believe there would be unforseen trouble brewing.

He was rebuked as a trouble maker, some questioned his sanity. How right he was.

If only they listened to you Enoch

I am glad the airlines have taken the stance on restricting the walk on luggage and it should continue that way, there are some people try to take on everything but the kitchen sink.
All people need is their Passport and the other travel documents, no phones, laptops or electronic games, the airlines put on entertainment and if people do not use it too bad. we did not have any of these Electronic equipement years ago and everything was fine we do not need it now.

The problem of this and previous acts of terrorism is ISLAM- an EXTREMIST and TOTALITARIAN faith. In the eyes of Moslems,one is either a MOSLEM or an INFIDEL. There is no alternative. The Koran compels Moslems to wage JIHAD against the Infidel and bring all peoples and countries under Islam.

According to the belief system of Moslems, waging jihad is not a crime;hence the recent Scotsman study which showed that 25% of Moslems SUPPORTED the 7/7 tube bomings. These are the ones who were honest enough or stupid enough to admit it.What of the rest??

It is a fact that as long as Moslems are present in significant numbers in non Moslem countries, there willl be a terrorist element and the non active terrorists and non terrorist Moslems will either support them or will not be able to control them. The West faces an existential threat and the only way in which this can be resolved is by the net outmigration of Moslems and their containment in Moslem lands. The reformation of Islam and the renunciation of the jihad principle is not something which non Moslems can or should try to do. It is outwith the bounds of possibility.

The only way the non Moslem world can be safe from Moslems is by the removal of Moslems back to their ancestral lands. Whilst Moslems are present in significant numbers in the West, we shall never be free from their terrorism and threat and this type of terrorism will cause severe economic damage.

Bill 41/64.

You have got it absolutely spot on.

The latest wheeze from the wet liberals is that we should adjust our foreign policy just to please 3 or 4 percent of the population.

I may not agree with all our Foreign policy at times but I dont feel the need to present myself at Prestwick Airport with a sack full of explosives.

This countries (the UK) values have been built up over centuries and many have died to defend the freedoms that we enjoy today. When people come to live in this country they should respect our values laws and freedoms. If they don't like it they have the same rights as me and everyone else. That includes the right to leave.

Why were all the flights cancelled if they caught them?

Where was the security on trains (perfect 'business continuity' for the terrorists I would've thought).

I like No.73 Iam normally a tolerant person and I am beginning to side with the National Front and get our country back in the hands of the British People again, who knows there may even be less crime on the streets in of our country again.

SC (68) In further response to your comments ("The fact is, these terrorists are proud to call themselves muslims and carry out terrorist acts in the name of their religion."), those that constitute the British National Party are proud to call themselves British. Therefore, based on your argument, does this make them representative of British people – e.g. xenophobic, racist, and parochial?

Based on many of the comments here – the answer is yet - it is probably true!

Gerald , you're having a laugh aren't you ? Or you obviously do not know much about Politics. A swing to the far right by the working classes when times get tough is the oldest one in the book. Please don't fall for it.

David: you're blurring the lines between race and religion.

Lets ask ourselves some serious questions relating to ethnic integration. 95% of muslims will never tolerate the UK lifestyle and almost all will never fully integrate with local communities. I fear the bubble is about to burst and there will be an almighty backlash against muslim comunities nationwide. How long do we keep holding out the hand of friendship to muslims in this country before we give up and really drop the PC stance. Every thing they do is centred round the great Allah. We're now talking about muslim centred schools. What a great way to break down the barriers and preach their hatred of western society.
The Chinese, Sikh and Hindu communities are all happy to live side by side with our western culture.
Why can't they?.

I agree with Eli, post 71. We have the same problem in the US with the influx of foreignors that come here wanting us to adjust to THEIR ways of doing things. This is nothing new in the States being that we've always been a huge melting pot.

We've had muslim women insisting on wearing their burkas (sp) to take a driver's license picture. It hides part of their face and their hair, in the event someone needed to ID them it would be hard to do.

We also get to bend to their ways with religion! We always have to walk on eggshells with them and it's time to stop.

We have an Aussie in my office who refuses to be an American citizen, hates the Americans but won't go back to Australia! Why? She makes more money here than she could ever earn in Oz.

I think it would be dandy for the US and the UK to roll up it's borders and stop letting so many immigrants in that don't want to conform to our way of life. I've also heard that Spanish is being considered to be a second language here. Oh joy......

Thats Bullshit dan. I have lived ten years abroad and I did not Integrate. Should I have been Deported ? The Sihks, Hindus and Chines - most of them do not fully integrate. And why the hell should they ?

To suit you ? Where does your 95% come from ?

So you are all now declaring war on Muslims in general are you ? You should be ashamed of yourselves and we will reap what you sow.

Some interesting stuff from different viewpoints + perspectives above. Not much to add that I've not said already and now it transpires that M. Diderot said it nearly 300 years ago.
Love the typo/freudian slip Aileen #24! It happens to the best of us....
I'd vote for Malcolm's idea #17.. in all seriousness I would.
Marie Antoinette #81.. the swing to the right has already happened - that's why TB has been in no 10 these past nine years. I am astounded to find after Ming's recent coup d'etat that the Boy David is emerging as the moderate voice of British politics.
MAIRI #7 The sad fact is that it would contuniue at a much lower level if we could replace the Terrible Twins with statesmen who might pull us out of the trap of a 'war'. When as they did one declares 'war' it serves to dignify the declared enemy with a more legitimate status.
Gerard #13 et seq. I am and remain a clucking doubter. But I don't believe it's convenient for our alleged leaders - from where I am sitting it looks more planned than that.

Scott #29. Thanks for a very usable quote!

The silent majority speak for once, to the liberals, You had your day and look where we are now!
Yes Marie Antoinette we do reap what we sow, we let in too many immigrants who wont integrate, have no belief in our morals or values and we are certainly paying for that now, we are repaid with bombs for our hospitality.

Fine Jack , we all lnkow what game shows you watch and the crap you put in your shopping trolleys and now the crap you put in your brain.

Lynn , you have no idea what you are talking about. 10 years darling. In a very cosmopolitan place - there was no need to integrate.

It's high time some of you realize that "westerners" integrate without even trying, that's because generally we are honest and free enough to live and work together. Islamics are not honest or free enough to integrate because that's the way their religion teaches them---We are seen as infidels, that's why they are all the enemy and ought to be invited at force to leave !

A firendly word to the Scotsman Editorial staff:
Re:
http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1165972006
I don't think this is QUITE what you meant to say!

Mr Stewart-Whyte, 19, had been a pupil at ......
Another neighbour said Mr Stewart-Whyte had converted to Islam about a year ago........
"He had grown a long beard and had shaved his head. ....... Mr Stewart-Whyte recently changed his name to Abdul Wahid.

Details of the family's life in Britain emerged as police raided addresses in London, Birmingham and High Wycombe and arrested 24 people in connection with the plans to blow up planes.

Bit of a non-sequitur possibly???

We are not racial profiling ... all the terrorists HAVE been islamic..... its a known fact!!! Christians weren't bought up to be terrorists that is why we on the whole aren't. You can't blame us for something that Islam has created.... when I fly, I am nervous when Islamic people get on the plane... sorry but if it wasn't a fact I wouldnt feel like that.. And you can blame anything and everything on Bush and Blair... any president/PM had been in power same thing would have happened... Oh and to the guy from New Zealand who obviously doesnt know ANYTHING.. Bush can't run again... we have a 2 term limit!!!! Maybe you need to learn more about politics before you start blaming all this on the americans! I always fancied visitng New Zealand but after your comments and an Aussie guy I met in Edinburgh, I have totally been put off!

Surely, the problem is that the UK Govt has never embraced different cultures in a way that would bring total integration. Islamic communities, in particular, have found themselves on the periphory of wherever they've settled.

Institutionalised racism has always existed in the UK, and it has been driven and encouraged by the State. We are now suffering because of it.

Obviously this is only one factor in the current crisis/debacle, but it's difficult to see any solution - it's simply too late, chaos is going to ensue no matter!

If the countries the immigrants came from were so wonderful, why did they feel the need to leave? If they tried being so insistant in their own countries they wouldn't have lived to tell it.

You could live in a place like New York and never intergrate..China Town, Little Italy..the place is better for it. Has any one thanked the Pakistanis? My view sure has been changed, I now see them as an ally in what should be the policing of terror, it's not a war.

I know what you do at night Joe.

Sandy, thanks, you underline my point perfectly. Although I am referring to the UK only, you epitomise a mindset that exists here.

Why don't you all stop fooling yourselves that this has anything to do with muslim terrorists and point the finger at the real criminals . This latests event was nothing more than a way to scare the public . No evidence was presented yesterday to suggest that the threat was real yet all day on the news 'mass terror attacks are imminent ' . People that want to know the truth about this issue don't need to look very hard to find it . INFOWARS.COM . Come on lets all wake up and stop the real murderers who are set to grandstand as our saviours as soon as they let the first nuke off .

It's about a bunch of ISLAMICS who were going to blow planes out of the sky and kill our people. It's not going off subject to tarr them, we know the profile, we know what they look like, they are a continual threat, it would be less than diligent not to profile and target all of them, I don't know which ones are terrorists, and neither do you Joe. 100% or nothing against them.

Could someone explain why there are no mass Muslim marches in this country protesting "not in the name of my religion" against such attempted terrorist atrocities. All I see is Muslim murdering Muslim in Iraq (and many innocents in other countries) in the name of Allah while they blame the west.
Islam is not a religion of peace it is a backward medieval woman hating brainwashing cult. One is reminded of the Monty Python film The Life of Brian and the devotees of "The shoe". Islam has The Book and of course every line is the word of God - except much of it is contradictory and totally obscure. One would think that if it was the word of God he could have been a bit clearer and avoided some of the confusion!

By the way Fiona you are an idiot !!! Christians are not brought up to be terrorists , what about the problems in Ulster ? This problem still rages and just because you dont see it on the new does that mean its gone away ? Think of the Christian families who have turned out little terrorists over there . Or i'm i wrong in thinking that prod's and catholics are 2 seperate forms of christianity ? Maybe i am ,maybe these two groups are both followers of Allah deep down inside !

re profiling them - while it may be generally true that you could profile 99% what about one of those just arrested who apparently has only been Muslim convert for six months. If it turns out he was involved then clearly he cannot have done so on the basis of any expert understanding of his new religion!

What a clever woman you are Marie Antoinette, you know what game shows I watch, even what I put in my shopping trolley and now you know what Joe does at night! Please enlighten us all then we will know if infact you do have some kind of ESP. You may be able to help prevent further atrocities around the world.
Your argument is flawed and so you revert to silly posts like that, GROW UP!.

I see you have obviously read the Koran Bill. Jesus Christ . Woodwork Squeaks and out come the freaks.

Marie Antoinette - I have actually read the Koran -from cover to cover in an authorised translation. Have you? If you have you will have understand what I am referring to.

I'm not a woman Jack. Shows you how much you know.

The whole point that i am trying to make here is that our goverment lied to us - fairly recently - about WMD. They have now admitted it, or rather changed the plea to 'bringing democracy'. I don't trust them in the slightest, and this 'new right' faction forming because a few planes were delayed is frightening.

Marie Anntoinette - Calm it down - If we were as united as these Camel Jockey's we may not be in this situation - Trust them not - Tolerate them not !

Sandy, you have a very aggressive viewpoint - are you, perhaps a member of the KKK or just a typical redneck with a hair trigger? You certainly add to the mix with your venom and racist overtone.

May Allah be with you Sandy

A number of posts raise the problem of integration as though it is an all or nothing thing. I certainly dont believe evryone has to integrate to the point where they become indistinguishable from the host community. However when you live in another country you must respect that countries laws and customs and not expect them to change to accomodate you. If you want them to change you would expect to do this through pursuasion and debate not by blowing up those that dont accept your point of view.
and by the way marie - does your choice of name reflect some sort of superiority complex?

Not a racist - Not a redneck - Well I did grow up in Cleland, Lanarkshire. Just diligent when it comes to sorting out the real cause of this mess

Sandy - I think your reference to "camel jockeys " is gratuitously offensive and racist. I am not going to report your posty because I believe in free speech but do you think you could resort to logic, evidence and other forms of rational debate rather than racist slurs? By the way I share much of your concerns re Islam but you do your arguments no favours by such offensiveness.

Everyone is going on about US being racist against the Muslims. And how AWFUL we are for thinking that, and even worse for saying so.

Er....aren't THEY the racist ones? Every religion, nationality, colour and creed that isn't theirs, isn't acceptable? So let's bomb the hell out of the infidels so they will succumb to the only true religion.

This PC government thinks it can "legislate to integrate" and force the issue. The fact is, we are never all going to integrate. It is not the majority wish in this country. The majority wish is, dare I say it, repatriation as mentioned in an earlier post and remove this cancer from our society.

The Sikhs, Hindus and Chinese maybe don't integrate either, in whatever country they find themselves but they're not the culprits here.

Islam is dangerous and should be removed from this country. Full Stop

Karen, post 76 claims that muslims regard the world in terms of muslim or infidel.

Odd that isn't it?, kind of like the way Christians regard non-Christians as unsaved and condemned to hell, or Jews regard the Goyim as - well, unsaved and condemned to hell.

Muslims regard all "peoples of the book" (i.e. Jews, Christians) as saved by the word of god.

She also states that jihad is holy war.It isn't. Jihad is supposed to be defending your right to worship in peace from oppressors.

Having said that, Politics is all in the middle east and there are people there who can twist the meaning of what should be an inclusive and tolerant faith into an excuse for murder and the forced suicide of young men and women - I don't see any Al-Qaeda commanders blowing themselves up, just the young footsoldiers and cannon-fodder.

Al-Qaeda, is only one face of the problem, you've also got Iran (A fascist theocracy) and Syria (Just fascist) trying to extend their influence in the middle east and the world by exporting chaos which they hope to take advantage of (i.e. sponsoring and supporting Hezbollah). Oh and this all distracts from Iran's nuclear programme.

Then you've got the running sore of Palestine and Israel. A breeding ground for terrorists and suicide bombers, which has long since lost any idea of what its original grievances were.

And lastly, and maybe most importantly, you've got Saudi Arabia and Wahabist Islam, a faith sponsored by the House of Saud, which is a "stripped down" version of Islam.

Stripped of tolerance and goodwill.

A faith which encourages the oppression of muslim women and the murder of non-muslims, and muslims who disagree with the tenets of wahabism (if they disagree, they can't be real muslims, so it's OK to kill them). Anyone see faint echoes of the fundamentalist Christians of the US here?

The house of Saud is using it's oil money to sponsor wahabist schools and mosques

apologies about teh Jockey's - just inflamed and concerned

The Appalachian Hill Billies were mainly Ulster Scots, so it would seem their traditions have continued with you Sandy.

My name is irony Bill.

Islam accepts other religions and cultures. You will know that Bill and also that it is a sin to kill.

Now before everyone gets all excited , may I suggest that some people are interpreting it wrongly (kind of like the Bible!).

I've seen Muslim Demos against the 'troubles' in Paris , Frankfurt and Brussels. Presumably they occur here.

Eli 118 - You appear to have been seeking your solutions from your bedside copy of Mein Kampf which was the last time someone suggested wholesale removal of a population based on their religion. I am no defender of Islam which is an awfully backward religion but at the same time I am sure there are many many thousands of basically decent Muslims - wether I agree with some of their backward beliefs or not. As long as they dont try to foist their beliefs on my country I have no objection to anyone living here.

Hill Billy - Thanks AJ - Sounds a wee bit like profiling !!! Kidding with you

Marie - if your name irony then you are so subtle as to be dissapearing up your own rectum. You will be aware that Islam accepts other laws and cultures but for example non muslims in muslim countries are subject to a kind of second hand citizen ship. Try being a practicising christian in saudi arabia.

Tell me of another religion that calls for the beheading of people for makng cartoons or writing books?
Have YOU actually read the Koran? and if it is so open to interpretation how can it be the word of God. Or is God intentionally obscure. Perhaps he wasnt sure what he meant.
Ask a Muslim what their attitude is to homosexuals if you want to see how enlightened their religion is. Ask them what punishment the Koran prescribes for apostacy , or adultory? Ask them how they feel about me - an atheist?

Nae bother Sandy pal - jist keep yer Uzi 9mm under lock and key

119 Iain. - good posting. I agree with every word you say except that I dont think that Islam as you say is fundamentally good and its just that its being misinterpreted. Certainly my reading of the Koran (more than once) didnt leave me with that opinion. Mind you I have no truck with any of these "peoples of the book" and their "god given" belief systems.

In my professional life, I deal with reaching the root cause and eradicating failure mechanisms.....same applies. Eradicate the Islamic religion - Problem ceases, bring on the next issue !

Yer Hill Billy/Redneck from Cleland

128 sandy
So I guess by that logic Sandy when you find a problem in a machine you just throw out the whole machine do you? Glad you dont work for my company :-)

Yes Bill - That's exactly what I do !- C'mon grow up !

Sandy - Irony and sarcasm are a double edged sword. If you cant take it dont dish it out. Presumably you missed the smiley which should have indicated fairly clearly that I wasnt being serious. I can lend you my copy of "Humour for the uninitiated" if you have lost yours.

I remember defending Moslems 10 years ago arguing that all religions harboured extremists. But I remember the comment a Hindu friend of mine made that " There are a far higher proportion of Moslems that are extremists". How true that is.
The solution of course is peace between Israel and Palestinians. That seems further away than ever, but we have to strive towards that

127 Bill. Oh all religions are fundamentally good. Just as long as they haven't got any people practising them. Organised religion has very little to do with god and more to do with culture. By definition anyone who doesn't practice the same one as you is automatically beyond the pale, not saved, and probably smells funny. No-one you'd want your sister to marry.

Some people can get beyond that, some can't but can get along with others, some find the very existence of other religions an unbearable itch that has to be scratched - preferably with an RPG or roadside bomb.

Those are the one's who are easy meat for the people who want power and don't care who they use or what they have to do to get it.

Iain @ 119. Not a bad posting, to be sure. Although I disagree with how you defined the term jihad, (but may be wrong, and if so feel free to clarify).

You have Jihad defined as "supposed to be defending your right to worship in peace from oppressors." Jihad takes many forms and is seen a a struggle against something.
Their "holy war" is only one aspect of this struggle and is an armed struggle for their god, to further Islam.

Other than that point, I support Karen @ 76 views too. Islam is a very intolerant religion, if a Muslim says otherwise they are trying to lull you into a false sense of security or are committing a crime against their own religion.

If Muslims ARE against terrorist activities being committed in THEIR name, why do we never hear of them categorically refuting them?

Iain, you also comment on the similarity of Christian, non-christian to Muslim, non-muslim.
Can you tell me who the Christian representatives are who demand that christians murder and persecute non-christians?

It appears that Islam and it's extremists want to drag this world back into the dark ages, based on some ravings a religious zealot had 1500 years ago?

Thomas 134. I am no lover of any religion as I think they are all ultimately devisive. However I must broadly agree with your point that there hasnt been much evidence of christian fundamentalist inspired violence in recent years. Unless of course you count the religious right in the USA and their setting of the "conservative" agenda which has informed much of Bush's actions.
I supported the invasion of Iraq but I have to say that the USA governments handling of international matters has been quite flawed and it has at times seemed that they only seem to have force on their agenda. Much of the drift to the extreme religious right in the Muslim world could have been stopped if the USA had not been so driven by the religious christian right and had adopted a more finessed approach to the Middle East. EG by adopting a more even handed approach to Israel plaestine at an earlier stage.
That said, in general it seems that Chrsitianity generally has left behind its own "crusading" past.
If we are on a "crusade" in the west now it is a crusade for democracy.
Perhaps one day in the distant future we may see a more mature version of Islam emerge which is more able to live in the modern world.
I still think that all the three religions based on the "book", Islam, Christianity and Judaism fundamentally encourage a divisive us and them attitude in their followers.

Bill @ 123: You ended with "As long as they dont try to foist their beliefs on my country I have no objection to anyone living here."

Which is a brilliant comment, and shared, I'm sure, with the majority of the people in this country.

However, given that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is proposing that Britain becomes the global "gateway for Islamic finance", what concessions do you think will be made for us to become this gateway?
If Gordon Brown becomes Prime Minister, what do you think will happen to this country?
With a rising number of "British" Muslims becoming disenchanted with 'British Law' and want Shariah Law instead, will Gordon Brown make concessions to them in exchange for their money?

With the UN being pressed to ban "the slandering of religions", which came after a cartoon about the prophet Muhammad and aims to protect Islam further, It might soon be impossible to speak out about the extremist, fundamentalist nature of some of the followers of Islam.

Have to agree that post #119 is pretty-well spot on in its appraisal of the hijacking of the fear-the-lord variety of almost every faith (if not all) for non-spritual purposes. And unlike Bill #127 I have no problem with the matter of 'interpretation' Consider the Last Supper bible story on which the concept of taking communion is based, which the (fascist) authorities in ancient Rome manipulated to convince their proles that Christians were all cannibals.

Bill, like yourself I am no lover of religion either. If I believe in anything, its the right to be free, safe from harm, and practice your beliefs as long as they don't impose on others.

I agree with your take on where it went wrong, when it went wrong, how it went wrong, and what might have prevented it; but we have to deal with the consequences now.

Through various researches I've done, books I've read, even posts I've read on the Scotsman website, I'm beginning to believe that Islam is a fairly extreme religion, and the extremists make it worse.

I can't see how Islam can change into a "more mature version" when they can't agree among themselves about something that happened almost 1500 years ago (Sunni and Shia et al).

I can't see how Islam can change when their religious texts are deemed incontrovertible. Is not their holy book deemed the word of god, and therefore to change any of it's meaning would be considered apostasy?

I don't doubt that Muslims find comfort in the Quran, and their Shariah Law, but this is at odds with a 21st century western democracy.

And in the same vein, a 21st century western democracy is at odds with Islam and Shariah Law.

regardless of how democratic we in the "christian" world try to be, the Islamic extremists will not rest until the world is under their laws, in one form or another.

134 Thomas Thomson Jr.

Thomas, perhaps I'm erring too far on the side of islam in my last post. Islam, was a tolerant religion - for the 5th century a.d. when it came into being. Womens property rights, state protection of other religions, exhortations to tolerance for all believers, charity a religious duty.

All pretty good stuff I'm sure you'd agree.

Sadly since then, the rights of muslim women in law have been superseded by various fatwahs (not death sentences as lots of people seem to think, but islamic interpretations of the q'uran), subsuming them to local customs which have effectively enslaved them.

State protection of the practitioners of other religions (Dhimmis) are characterised by special taxes for non muslims, and the exhortation that Dhimmi's should be forced to live under humiliating obligations "to ensure that they are subdued" (from the q'uran, although I am given to understand it's a medieval reinterpretation of the source material)

The definition of tolerance has changed to such a degree that the groups who are being tolerated sometimes do not include fellow muslims (Shia/Sunni in Iraq for example)

About all that's left is charity, and that is pretty much exclusively muslim charities, some of which can have some extremely dubious interpretations of what charity constitutes.

I think what offends most people about islam in this country is that muslims bring their local customs with them, and try to apply them as if they had the force of law. Or interpret their behaviour according to Sharia law - choosing to forget that Sharia law does not apply in this country. When these customs are offensive to people in the UK and are prohibited, it is seen as oppression.

Having said that, it doesn't mean that all the muslims in the UK are intolerant, women hating terrorist sponsors. Try getting a Sufi to countenance terrorism for example.

And some muslims have stood up and been counted in

Martin #132. Hindus and Muslims have never been bosom buddies, so your friend's response might well, strictly on the balance of probablities you understand, have been easy to predict. However even if what (s)he said were true - and we are certainly being led to believe that by various non-Hindu sources - it is still no excuse to sponsor or condone what is essentially religious hatred. Violence against extremists is very like Hercules' task to kill the Hydra. Cut off one head (not necessarily literally) and two appear in its place. Consider the old Blair mantra Education Education Education. What we are getting is Propaganda Propaganda Propaganda. Tony or his handlers and Osama or his handlers are equally guilty of the same sin, selling megalomania as salvation. They are both false prophets selling hatred while hiding behind the robes of their spiritual fathers.

Bill #131 - Didnae see the smiley.

Lets beck on the subject of these ISLAMIC terrorists. We spend more time tolerating their ways yet the live to see us the infidels dead. They exclude themselves from our culture bringing upon themselves exclusion by our culture. Being offensive toward thier culture is a very small and incidental way of venting our flustration, there is nothing more offensive, bigotted and sectarian than a bunch of ISLAMICs threatening to blow up our people in planes.
It makes me utterly sick that we bend over backwards to please ISLAMICS and our return is hate filled threats to murder us and decapitate even our journalists.
It's high time folkes that we cease looking through rose tinted specs when looking at this, stop blaming GWB and TB, who are in effect the policemen of all the other nations who refuse to confront this issue.
Any one who has seen the movie the "Sword of Islam" or read the book will understand what I'm saying.
I'm not sorry if I offend or in the slightest guilty, we must take action, they live amongst us, they threaten our existance.
I used to live in Bradford, it is they who are the sectarian ones, it is they who are the aggressors. People, quit trying to understand these crazy people and quit tolerating them shoving their faith and vastly sectarian culture in our face.
ISLAM is the root of this problem, it preaches hate toward us...are you blind they are the biggest enemy we've ever faced and the problem is magnified because we've allowed them to live amongst us and breed British nationals who preach the same hate.
May God rest Enoch Powell, his prophesy is all but fulfilled.

Thomas Thompson Jr #138.
Two words: Northern Ireland

#139

Oops, sorry, 150 muslim organisations didn't issue a statement condemning terror in June. It was 150 mosques.

Sorry, didn't check my facts properly.

Northern Ireland is no comparison. Northern Ireland no matter your opinion is about 2 clashing cultures within one nationality, almost Civil War.
In war both sides of these cultures fought together against a German aggressor, yet still fought on return for their own identity.
These ISLAMIC infiltrators are again a shower of crazies, trying to infiltrate our culture, shove their nonsense down our thoats, and have us believe that they are a religion of peace.
They must be stopped, and the way to start to force them out of their homes and send them back to where they belong and where they think they belong.
Britain must cease to be rolled over by a sub culture and a set of united countries and a religion that hates us....I tell you that if another attack happens, my shot gun will be ready to go. We'll never win this war without the likes of you and I uniting against these ISLAMIC infiltrating evil doers.

They are killing our people - wake up - quit blaming the politicians - the blame lies with ISLAM and it's offspring.

DannyL @ 142, well done, those are two words, to be sure.

But what was your point?

Was it in reference to the Sunni & Shia Muslims killing themselves?

Was it in reference to Shariah Law being an extremely outmoded and some say barbaric way of living?

Please enlighten me, and then we'll both know what's on your mind.

#143 - condemning terror in June - What did you think they would do laugh at us in the open - NOTHING THEY HAVE DONE HAS BEEN OPEN AND TRUE. They live in our society in deceit, they should be thrown out of our society.

Iain @ 139, and various.

All good points, looks like we reading almost from the same book.

But I am a bit confused about your Sufi reference though. Depending on your point of view, take, or whatever Sufi either consider themselves independent universal philosophy which predates islam; or the traditionals are considered to be an integral part of Islam, being experts in Shariah Law and many are practicing judges.

now, these are two radically different ideals to describe the "one tradition".

But other than that, no I don't think that all Muslims in the UK are "intolerant, women hating terrorist sponsors.". But I think their Religion, and how it is interpreted, can require them to be.

And as to the point about the mosques (I know what you meant ;-), I'm assuming these mosques were in Britain? were there any mosques in a truly Islamic Shariah Law country who condemned the terrorist acts?

Good Point on the mosques Thomas @ 148

Malcolm (#17) I much prefer the
'BEAM ME UP,SCOTTY' method!!!

In the time after 9/11 the US missed a great opportunity to learn a few home truths, and to examine its conscience…that there is no true freedom & security for anyone without justice for everyone – that there are reasons for the hatred which much of the world (not only the Muslim world) feels towards the western world.- that the domination of the world’s economy through globalization by the western powers is divisive and deeply resented – that the automatic support of Israel in every situation, by America in particular, is driving the Arab world to frustration and despair. In despair, extreme measures, even self-destruction by suicide bombing, seems to be the only way to retaliate.
What other way could the west have reacted to the events of 9/11 and 7/7 and the possible 10/8 ??? surely in a way very different from that which America and her allies have taken…certainly by showing no fear, no appeasement of terrorism, but certainly not by bellicose calls for war and retaliation. Rather, by a detached understanding of the events which have led to the tragedy of 9/11 etc, to come to grips with the forces of division and separation, therefore breeding hate, in the western world; and to understand that the call for retaliation only deepened the crisis and led to further unnecessary suffering. The western nations must to be seen to obey the rule of law in bringing the perpetrators of these crimes to the International Court of Justice. Otherwise they will simply be duplicating the crimes in their desire for revenge. If ‘terrorists’ are captured they should be tried under Shariah law in their own country, not imprisoned by the US in the abomination that is Guantanamo.
No nation is invulnerable, isolationism is no longer an option, we live in one interdependent world where the resources must be shared more equitably, thus ensuring peace and an end to the despair and resentment that leads to ‘terrorism’. If the west shared their wealth in the form of their ov

Peter @ 151, good points, to be sure.

But, you say that any 'terrorist' should be tried under Shariah Law in thier own country. How, exactly?

If that 'terrorist' came from Britain, then we don't have Shariah Law, and I hope to god we never do.

If you try a 'terrorist' under Shariah Law in a Shariah Law country, they are not condemned as terrorist, but as hero.
Look at Iran/Syria's support for Hezbollah, those countries are certainly not condemning Islamic terrorism.

I could go on, but I'll end up repeating previous posts; so I suggest you reread the ones you missed or didn't understand.

What are we coming to here, now we have a Muslim Parlaiment of Great Britain? now they will be wanting a part of the UK a Muslim State?

In Canada the Muslims want the government to change the Laws of the land to suit the Muslim Faith, at the moment they were in a round about way to get lost I believe, but who knows what will happen in the future and will it also happen here.

I would agree with one of the readers earlier on, it does not matter where you come from if you come to live in this country you have to live in the culture you come to or go back to where you come from, you never get a Christian living in a Muslim Country, maybe to help them to build something or other but not to live there permanently.

I've lived all my life in Glasgow, went to school here and had moslem neighbours. Never once was there any problems re their culture not integrating with mine. The problem lay with the many Glaswegians who were racist and would not accept them. There are of course peaceful moslem people, perhaps they are afraid to stand up and speak because they are afraid for their families too. Their religion, especially for fundamental islamics, is strict and unforgiving, do they really want to be seen marching in the street when their is so much hatred against moslems on this page? Since 9/11 this situation has careered out of control, why are so many young brainwashed moslems so angry and looking to kill for their beliefs? They are victims too, of another conspiracy altogether. Not every moslem wants Sharia law. Sandy.....you are a vicious mouthed nutter and a TERRORIST!

Peter #151
That's coming from someone who lives in the UK. Britain's concience ought to be bothered aswell as alot of the hatred comes from our dealings in Kashmir etc.
As for being a vicious mouthed nutter - Enoch Powell was branded the same. Vicious mouthed but trully honest.

As for the terrorist bit, you go too far, I love my family, I love my country, but I will not get in an aeroplane and blow myself up for any of them !
Terrorist not.

They have brought the hate upon themselves

This thread has become rather frightening. There is a lot of anger towards Islam in general coming out. I can't agree with it, but I can certainly understand it. There is no question that there has been a wave of terrorist activities by proudly self-proclaimed Muslims. The moderate Islamic community has spoken out against them, but there voices are drowned out by the radicals. Is it because they are a smaller minority, or is it because of how news is reported? I don't know.
There is a trend in the teachings of Islam toward intolerance and harsh punishment. This seems to have blossomed into justification for certain horrific acts. That is sad, but perhaps was not inevitable.
I strongly believe that the actions of the terrorists are motivated more by socio-political forces than by religion. These forces have led to them interpreting there religion in such a way as to justify the actions that they feel they need to comit. Certainly some of the world events that involve the relationship between the western world, Israel and the Islamic world have helped shape these forces. For that reason, George Bush and Tony Blair and others could be considered to be in part a cause of what is happening. This does not necessarily equate to being at fault. The victim may not be to blame in a situation, but still may be involved in what has led to the actions of the aggressor.
Preaching tolerance of Muslim extremists will not make the world safe. There needs to be action on at least 2 levels. First there needs to be continued direct action to eliminate the current threat, but next there needs to be an examination of what both sides have done and need to do to eliminate the current atmosphere of hatred and mistrust.
No, the western world is not the villain. It is the terrorists that are blowing up planes and trains. But in the bigger picture of international politics, neither side is blameless.

Sandy, just what was that you mentioned about getting out your gun?

The moderate Islam has not coming out against their so-called extreme elements! They will riot over a stupid bunch of cartoons, but you'll never find them after a suicide bombing or missile attack (unless it killed some muslims by accident).

To attempting to make a deal for peace with these murderers is just asking to be eaten last. They must be destroyed, Islam banned from the west, and they all sent back to their countries, since they can't be trusted at all! Fools let them back in after centuries of fighting to prevent from converting the West to Islam. Islam crosses the line with politics too much and to trust any of them is a suicidal path.

Doreen, The whole thing is worrying, It will come that I can't take my wee lassie to see the sights in Washington DC because some ISLAMIC terrorist wants to land a frickin plane on the lawn of the White House.
Their hate of our people (all Westerners not just USA and UK), is now in our society, in our streets. They will be the last to sign up when war comes, they will not fight for Britain yet they take up a place in our society. No matter what our opinion of the Iraq situation is, I wonder what would happen if the government decided to conscript these ISLAMIC people to fight........
Being Scottish and having lived in Scotland for 24 years and saw nothing but racism from their side toward us.
Maybe that lunatic Jack McConnell shoudl realize that there are more things to warry about than whether the Rangers or Celtic supporters sing certain songs.
As for my gun, it will remain in the safe until the fight comes to my door then it will be used.
Unlike the UK, I have the freedom to protect my family and my home, that I will do.

I understand your concerns Sandy as they are valid but not all moslems are terrorist just as not all Irish Catholics were pro IRA. Now you wouldnt have seen many Irish catholics marching against the IRA cos we all know what their own kin would have done to them. As for your gun I sincerely hope it never sees the light of day.

Lets change things around. Lets say we are in a Mulsim Country and doing what the Extremists have done to us.

How would they handle it, or us?

They wouldn't give a hoot about our rights, our religion or our laws. They would simply say that in their land it is done their way....end.

What do we do. We allow our Country to be twisted around and changed. We have to listen to us being bad mouthed on the TV (This week on Muslims wishes for Britain). They openly threaten our way of life and our customs. What do we do...take it because "we must". Why? because we're British..NO WE'RE NOT, WE'RE MUGS.

I heard a Muslim man talking on TV today and he openly stated that if they live in UK then they must conform to the laws and customs of the UK..WELL DONE MR MUSLIM MAN, in saying what you did, gives people a little hope.

I have lived in the Middle East. I have seen Europeans flogged in public for consuming alcohol I have seen a European (Scottish) woman isolated at work because she does not have the right to sit in the same office as men. I have been chased through the streets by the "Religious Police" because I was in a Cafe during prayer time, and that is forbidden. Many years ago I watched a friend being beheaded and dragged around the Streets of Aden after trying to calm a croud. THAT'S WHAT THEY DO.

We must become as intollerant with them as they are with us. The Muslim community "do not" come forward and offer information on radical or extremist activity in their communities and in such are not actively behaving in the best interests of the UK.

The 9/11 bombers were all Muslim /Asian and as far as I gather, although 3 were Muslim converts yesterday, they were still Asian.

HOW WOULD "THEY " HANDLE IT....

1. STOP MUSLIMS FLYING
2. INTRODUCE MUSLIM ONLY FLIGHTS
3. APPLY THE LAWS OF OUR LAND WITH FORCE.
4. IMMEDIATELY DEPORT ANY MUSLIM AND THEIR