If I were the USA -- which, thank your nuts I'm not, sir -- I would know very clearly who my friends were. Similarly, if I were an islamofascist murderous s.o.b. terrorist whose only goal in 'life' is to kill anyone I can't enslave to my Stone Age 'vision' of dystopia (which I am very much NOT), I would know which cowards to count on not to kick up a fuss when I go about killing people.

Props to the Scotsman who are resisting these 'flights of death'. These flights do nothing but add more fuel to the fire. 600+ Lebanese civilians killed and continuing. The number of Israeli civilians killed is 19.
Israel's bombing of a power station in Beirut has caused th worst ecological disaster ever in that area.Local fisherman says they are finished.
This wanton and wholesale destruction of an entire country must stop but not if my country (US) keeps sending munitons.
Stand up to uncle Sam isntead of being a poodle like Blair.

Asking Scots to stand up for themselves is futile. Unfortunately, by voting patterns, Scots prefer to vote for rule by Enlgand as they constantly vote for English parties. A nation of warriors has become a nation of spineless jellyfish, with a few honourable exceptions.

The reason Ireland banned these flights is because the can! They don't have to run to London on their bended knees asking Bliar for permission. Scots can't do this because their Mickey Mouse parliament is still ruled by Westminster and sad to say, that seems to be the way the majority of Scots like it!

It saddens me to see my country shown to the world as a bunch of jerks who live their political lives on their knees.

And to those who take exception to this post, prove me wrong!

Good on Ireland...Standing up to the American bullies...to many countries are thinking to much about how them standing up for what they really think is the right thing to do, because they don't want to damage their relationship with Mr Bush.
The sooner he is out of presidency the better the world will be for it... why is he so happy to suggest bombs and wars before looking at other options.

I would be proud to be Irish after that statement...

"There is absolutely no way that we would allow munitions or weapons to be shipped through Shannon to a location where there is an actual war going on. We would not allow it."

I can only agree with Mike,s comments on the scots they have lost all there respect, we are a nation who have lost our way, as for the scottish executive they just continue to take orders from westminster, let us not forget next years election and kick them all into touch

Good on the Irish! I'm proud to have you as neighbours!

The UN has condemned the Israeli action as a humanitarian crime; giving transit facilities for their munitions makes the British accessories by aiding and abetting Israel in their crime.

We have been criminalised by the Iraq invasion, we are now criminalised by our support for the Israeli murders.

We need to get rid of Blair and his like now, so that once again we can take our proper place in world affairs. The wretches should be arrested and put on trial.

I think it is an outrage that the British government and the waste of public money Scottish executive are letting Israel get away with killing innocent citizens of Lebanon.
Hezbollah are using the Lebanese people as human shields and Lebanon cannot do anything to stop this.
If terrorists took civilians hostage in this country we would not dream of letting the authorities kill the hostages to get at the terrorists, so why are Tony Blair and George Bush letting Israel get away with this crime?
Tony Blair, the Labour Government and the Scottish executive will pay the price for their inactions in this conflict.

Good on the Irish Government! The way the British Goverment acts sickens me to the pit of my stomach.

Bill i agree whole heartedly with your comments.

I am getting sick of being dictated to by Washington. Bush and Blair's "Special Relationship" is more one of Pimp/Dealer and crack whore! I can just imagine what was said during their discusions, GWB: "Yo Blair, you want some sugar?"
TB: "Er...about the Lebanon thingy..."
GWB: "You know you want some sugar from your daddy...feeling thirsty?..you know what to do...down on your knees...oh yeah that's good!"

P.S. To Smart...The bombing in London was carried out by "home grown" terrorists not people from Lebanon.

Good for the Irish! If you repeatedly transport bombs and materiel through a civil airport, it becomes de facto a military airport. I guess that certain people in the Middle East have made a mental note about Prestwick, and that it might now be a 'legitimate' target for operations. Dinna forget there is a lot of money to be made through 'terrorism', just like 'religion'.

Bill @ 7 How I agree with you, the London based newspapers that I have read this am seem to have conveniently ommitted the Irish stance on refuelling these cargo `planes. Our Scottish friends at their next election will have the opportunity to vote SNP but what do we do here to solve the Blair problem. ?Tslking with fellow Labour party members last night who would as they say "rather cut off their right hands than vote Tory" A hung paliament is the best we can hope for with Lib. Dems holding some sort of balance. Not got a great faith in Ming `tho. if only Chas. Kennedy could sort his life out

Many apologies for spelling mistakes, too much drinking last night I think.

Hey Smart. You should remember that Lebanon has a large Christian population and apparenlty since being bombed by Israel, 60% of them now support Hezbollah.Not only that but the Israelis killed 5 Canadians in the first week of bombing and have now killed UN observers too! Unbelievable. Israeli should be charged with warcrimes.

Good on Ireland for resisting the Yanks. Its just goes to show the chain of command. Blair is Bush's poodle and Jack MacConnell(who's been very silent on all of this) is poodle to Blair.

Carl (11) Germany led the bombing, the British retaliated and certainly in an over the top way but we arent debating history here. Few countries dont have moments in history that are impossible with hindsight to defend, this is NOW.

Israel is battling terrorists who are killing its own innocent civilians by killing other people's innocent civilians. It is not only morally reprehensible it is a stupid policy which will have a number of very bad effects, very few of them any help to Israel.

So what to do in this situation...what about TARGETED ASSASSINATIONS! Something both the US and Israel have experience of. And no the use of cluster bombs in urban areas is NOT a targerted assassination it is a complete and utter disregard for human life.

The attack on al-Zarqawi is a good example of targetted assassinations that I for one would back were they aimed at Hezbollah terrorists. I accept that not all would accept this but I do. Hezbollah attacks innocent Israeli civilians I see no reason why Israel shouldnt be completely brutal in its response to Hezbollah, as the US was to Zarqawi.

But Lebanon isn't Hezbollah and it is being attacked in part to show that Mr Olmert is tough and in part to bully the Lebanese government, which is pretty helpless, and the wider world into doing something about Hezbollah. Attack Hezbollah, dont attack civilians and you will stop losing friends and start gaining admirers.

#16, get your facts first before posting. Hezbollah USED the UN post to launch rockets from. Read the Canadian UN Observer's last email!!!!!!

Re: post number three, I think you will find that the guys who carried out out the 7/7 attacks were Britlish...

#20, Brittish yes, but always Muslim first.

Until the US is forced into accepting UN authority on regional conflicts, nothing will change. The US and the UK are the most hypocritical nations on Earth and the international community realises this only too well. As we've seen over recent years, military might is considered a first option behind closed doors, whilst the world is told that diplomacy must be 'given a chance'.
Vote the warmongers out.

Allan (17) If Katyusha rockets were falling in your neighborhood and killing your children, I'm sure you have a different take on the situation.

#22, good for you. That's just what we need -- more genocides. The UNs track record is deplorable. That's where the root of the world's problem begin - the great old UN.

Carl, USA #11

You advise John Scotland #9 to grow up.

You are right, war is hell. That is why you don't go into it without just cause.

You will know that WW2 was won because the USA helped us fight Nazi Germany. There were others, including the French.

The difference is that that was a just war, and most of the Germans went along with the Nazis. Carpet bombing of Dresden and Hamburg followed the pattern of the blitz of London. There was no other way of speeding up the defeat of the Nazis, but the action saved allied lives just like the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved allied lives.

You are right, war is hell, and my heart bleeds for civilian casualties whoever they may be.

The difference with modern conflict is that civil deaths are massively higher than military ones. This collateral is used as a weapon to win world opinion, just like the present ceasefire charade and bombing the UN 'pour encourager les autres'.

The Irish denial of transit for WMD can be overcome by our criminal government stepping into the breach, but nobody should underestimate the power of their denial. If everybody else stopped arms shipments and support for terror, many lives would be saved; who knows peace might break out.

So, Carl, before you advise somebody else to grow up you might consider that what is going on now in Iraq, Lebanon, Israel, Afghanistan, Somalia etc are not playground games. Violence breeds violence; Israel has just manufactured a whole new generation of freedom fighters; added to the ones existing already this will ensure the ultimate demise of Israel and its friends. What do you think caused 9/11, Bali, Madrid and London? Frustrated victimised youths with nothing but burning hatred fuelled with the sort of thing that is happening in Gaza, West Bank and Lebanon.

This is the world we live in, this is real, this will kill us all if we don't grow up.

#25 - 9/11 was caused by frustrated victims. You may be grown up but you are VERY naive. Were the Germans frustrated victims? Was Hussein a frustrated victim? Is OBL a frustrated victim? What should Israel have done? Hide until the missles stop? This is the world we live in, welcome to it.

Carl (23) The rocket attacks came after the first Israeli air strikes. And no my opinion wouldn't change, 2 wrongs do not make a right. As i said in my post, Israel has a right to respond but killing civilians is not killing Hezbollah, only giving them more recruits.

#27 - In the real world terrorists such as Hezbollah USE the civilian population as COVER to MAXIMIZE the death count. It's THEIR version of controlling PR and public opinion.

Iraq refused to accept a UN resolution, resulting in American bombs being showered on them.

Israel refuses at abide by UN Resolution 242, resulting in American bombs being given to them.

The emaciated British Bulldog has now been transformed into a British Poodle, eager and grateful for any scraps from the American Rotweiller's bowl.

I welcome the principled stance of the Irish government in giving a two-fingered salute to the world's No1 perpetrator of terror. And I say this as a dual national (UK/USA).

Carl USA #23

If I was Israeli, and Katyusha rockets were falling in my backyard, I would take my children into one of the many underground shelters available, safe in the knowledge that primitive Katyushas can't do the damage that those 5000 pound bunker busters (courtesy of Bush and Blair) can.

These shelters were built in preparation for the backlash that was expected because of Israel's brutal behaviour through the years.

As you said before, war is hell. But this isn't war; it is disproportionate, excessive and indiscrimate killing - an Israeli turkey shoot.

time for Scotland to get out the union and tell yankmerica to GTF and boycott all american goods .... most of our trade is with our European partners and our current trading with the USA is declining due to high trading tarrifs imposed by the US goverment ... i would also like to see sanctions imposed on the USA and Isreal from a independant Scotland and the European union

Debra Boston #26

You say "What should Israel have done? Hide until the missles stop?"

Israel could have and should have negotiated before plunging into invasion. The missiles hadn't even started when the negotiating opportunity was there (it is still there).

We still have a UN; let's use it!

#30 - it was aimed at the Irish. I'm Irish and very ashamed of it. What's with the b*tch comment? You frustrated?

Debra (28) Please read my previous comment (17)before you make comments!

#33 - hmmm. Hezbollah launched the opening salvo. Was that a call for negotiations? I love the Europeans, soooo naive. Motto: Love them and they'll leave us alone.

Hey Sheikh Ali ben bej, Ireland welcomes you with OPEN arms and lots of social benefits. Come on over.

Debra (37) "...Europeans, soooo naive. Motto: Love them and they'll leave us alone."

Not naive, just not paranoid warmongers out to serve nobody but their own pollitical agenda!

i pity you Debra ..... if you are ashamed of Ireland the country of your birth .... by telling a global bully to GTF

tells me everything i need to know about you

Allan, you can't attack Hezbollah and not attack civilians. Hezbollah USES civilians as cover for the sole purpose of MAXIMIZING the civilian death count. Do you know aother way to kill Hezbollah without civilian casualties?

Ho hum! Vent if you must! doesn't change a damn thing in the real world. Eastern and Western logic are contra, you must, if not accept it, learn to live with it! I'd think given enough time and enough weaponry, the problem will absolve itself. Ah, but if there were no conflicts in the world, how would we entertain ourselves on these forums? How would we show the world how intelligent we are? Carry on troops, I'm outa here, time for me toddy! Oh, by the by, shekel alley ben begger @35, who in blazes is this alla fellow?

The following comes from a sense of total frustration. It concerns figures which I am lead to believe is a male perogative. The population figures are taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population - hopefully I have copied them correctly. 'Estimated World Population (2005) - 6,453,628,000. North America - 332,156,000.
Good Graphic of Population distribution which to my mind shows the States as being well in the minority of human beings on this planet and going a bit further, the country is not totally made up of Republicans. I detest the regime and I am not alone - see "Bush Does Iraq: Anatomy of a Failed Operation by Edward Jayne" (an American Professor who responds to emails and sounds totally ashamed of the place that he lives in. http://www.dissidentvoice.org/July06/Jayne20.htm

How soon you forget!! Europe did not mind American bombs, when we were saving their rear ends TWICE last century!

The Irish getting all fussy about bombs? Times are certainl a changin! Somebody remind me how many innocents were blown to pieces by the almost at times state sponsored IRA. Hey wait a minute how many blind eyes were turned by the Irish authorities towards arms smuggling etc and dealings with terror organisations!

Excuse me for interrupting again, but a thought came to mind. If Scotland declared war on England, maybe cast a stone or two across the border, then cried foul if England retalliated. Then you all could pitch some tents, notify the news media, gets some world wide PR, and several million dollars [pounds? Euro's?] That would pay for independance, and put a pretty bauble in your pockets. Oppertunity only knocks at the door of those who are watching for it! OK, carry on troops, sorry for the interruption!

Sheikh Ali ben bej - you stick to getting a bit of democracy in the Arab countries. Perhaps sort out your treatment of females and stop trying to attack others as a way of defence. There is good old Iran featured executing 16 year old girls on tv this week. In fact they spend more time fighting amongst themselves in between whining on about the rest of the world!

Oh, I remember, although only from history. The 'true' incident of WMD - taken again from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima... - "That said, it is estimated that by December 1945, as many as 140,000 had died in Hiroshima by the bomb and its associated effects.[1][2] In Nagasaki, roughly 74,000 people died of the bomb and its aftereffects with the death toll from two bombings around 214,000 people.[3][4] In both cities, most of the casualties were civilians."
So, Mike of USA, I take it that Europe should be thankful for the annihilation of civilians.

Well done the Irish.

First torture flights now bunker busters.

The Scots will not tolerate this complete abuse of our land and air for ever.

Politicians here are beginning to get that message.
Loud and clear.

We want no part of illegal wars, torture, kidnappings, and the slaughtering of innocent Palestinians, Lebanese,Iraqis and Afghans. Let alone the deaths of our own sons and daughters the British send to fight for US oil.

Once again we foolishlly align ourselves with the neo right Yanks, hell bent on world domination whatever the cost.Our so called scottish parliament is shown once again to be the puppet of westminster.Every time a bomb is dropped share prices in these arms companies increases.Who benefits, Bush and his cronies who own vast swathes of shares in these companies.Lets not forget Britain created the state of Israel.How long before a major terrorist incident in Scotland?

The sad thing about all the posturing of right and wrong is that whilst the world deliberates, civillians are being slaughtered. Whilst we could go back over the historical legitemacy of Israels occupation of the land which the Arab world disputes or whether Israelis were the first terrorists.

The reality is that innocent people are being killed, lured from their villages to supposed safety only to have their convoy's straifed by the Israeli airforce. If they dont move knowing that they will be murdered in open ground they are bombed anyway, what a choice!

Whenever you criticise this absolutely shocking tactic you are called an appeaser or an antisemite, the reality is Israel is deliberately targeting civillians to get at Hizbollah. The world, other than the U.S. is mobilised in opinion contrary to that of Israel and yet we the majority are all wrong. It does not make sense. The typical U.S. citizens line is, war on terror, Muslim terrorist, nuke em etc, like the well fed lab rat they will follow the party line as long as gas is cheap and food is plentiful.

Get some balanced perspective the middle east is the way it is because of the U.S. and it's over consumption of the worlds resource. Israel is bolstered as a forward base to keep the region de-stabilised and the balance of power horribly skewed.

When o when are we going to wake up . I live in South Africa . I've just spent a month in Scotland On holiday , I love the place ,but feel we have become so complacent about our independence and our own identity , that the Scots people are allowing themselves to become so anglified and subserviant, without so much as a murmur never mind a protest about the way we are allowing our selves to be drawn into conflicts that don't concern us .Free ourselves join Europe regain our independent spirit and be a nation once more.
Remember America has a short life as a Super power
China is well on its way to taking over that role

If we were to apply the same logic Israel applies to disarming terrorists then there would be very little of the planet left. For instance: two of the London bombers came from Leeds. Israel would undoubtedly see this as grounds for destroying most of the West Riding, regardless of who lived there. I don't give a stuff about their motivation anymore, they're no better than the terrorists themselves and are quite as capable of ignoring their own short memories (everyone else is a terrorist, they were freedom fighters 60 years ago) as they are about playing the sympathy card. I am sickened by the relentless cycle of revenge in the whole Middle East and the fact that as nations we are all complicit in it is disgusting. The level of duplicity involved on all sides is quite stunning.

What's this notion of "knowing who your friends are" anyway? A good friend will tell his misbehaving mate that he's being stupid, won't he? Anyone supplying arms to any of the parties involved is just guilty of one thing: profiteering on death.

Finally, the middle east is the birthplace of three of the planet's major religious faiths. Religion, I am often reliably informed, preaches brotherly love, tolerance and compassion. Since when?

Debra last time i'll respond to this because I don’t like repeating myself but as i said before and i say it again...READ Post 17!

US has carried out targeted assassinations before it could have done it again but it is all a little too late for that now! Israel is in too deep and the US is more than happy to let them carry out their dirty work for them (create a new middle east). For a few reasons, 1) the US army is already over stretched.
2) the US has failed to carry out it objectives (ie OBL is still not caught, Afghanistan is no safer than it was or Taliban free and Iraq is a huge mess) 3) Public opinion in the US regarding Iraq and the reasons for war are against Bush. 4) If USA did get directly involved they would find a huge problem with Syria and Iran.

You said "Hezbollah USES civilians as cover for the sole purpose of MAXIMIZING the civilian death count." - Hezbollah does hide in civilian areas but don't believe your own propaganda regarding "for the sole purpose of MAXIMIZING the civilian death count." Beirut has less Hezbollah fighters than the Southern border but it has not stopped Israel bombing the hell out of it. Israel has laser guided bombs, courtesy of the USA. The use of cluster bombs MAXIMIZES civilian deaths (and is condemned by the international community)...this is not requested by Hezbollah it is the actions of a government that has no consideration for human life! Also the targeting of an aid convoy and the refusal of a cease fire to allow aid to reach those who need it only reinforces this point and is morally reprehensible.

Russell

That is going to be the big dilemma for the so called free world, who do we trust? The U.S. which peddles it's selfish and subversive policies throughout the known world, shemelessly inflicting it's double standards on those whom they fall out with. Or, China with it's lack of democracy, it's lammentable record on human rights and it's bullying and downright aggressive stance towards Taiwan etc.

With America we share a common language, to an extent and a lineage again to an extent, the America we see today is a dreadful characiture of the Mcarthy, Hoover, Nixon right wing which blighted America's recent past.

Let's hope America moves bank towards merely right wing sometime soon, as the country I enjoyed in the halcyon days of teaching summer camp is now just a distant memory. American people are amongst the most generous and welcoming I have met in the world, it is their collective politic with which I find difficult to find concensus.

I would still prefer to deal with the U.S. as a kown quantity but not the one run by Bush seniors ultra right wing cronies.

Allan, targeted assassinations solve nothing either. Someone somewhere will avenge it and it's back to the cycle again. Everyone's looking for a quick convenient fix but it won't happen. If it's just the violence we want to stop then look no further than the law of the playground. It says that if you ignore the bully he gives up because there's no satisfaction left in violence, especially if all his allies stop helping him. It can be extended to here as long as everyone's prepared to forget the profits that can be made out of arms or oil and 6000 years of history.

Ireland is right. It's made a stance and started in its own backyard. It knows it's invited the brickbats re the IRA but is taking that on the chin. It's called taking a lead. If the citizens of the US are sincere in wanting to stop war then kick out the warmongering politicians and the profiteers in your own country. The US is proud of its No 1 superpower tag but all it's really about is willy-waving. "Mine's bigger than yours" big stick politics. But when it really comes down to leading the way, they haven't got a clue about making real gestures.

Richard (60) I agree that it would not be ideal solution as you say there would be revenge. However the point i was trying to put was that the number of civilians being killed would have been far less.

That said judging by the attack on the village of Qana killing up to 27 children shows how concerned Israel is about protecting inocent lives.

RE the law of the playground if only it were that simple.

My concern now is that Israel may make another bombing "mistake" and drop a couple in Syria, where the Syrian tanks are lining the border. Israel has already hit the border crossing.

Ross
I find your comments well balanced and can only concur we are between a rock and a hard place ,but under Bush/ Blair our very existance is threatened.That leads me to an independant country with compasionate reasoning and policies,toward our fellows no matter what colour or creed.Politicians for the most part self seeking, wwhether the began life like that i don't know ,perhaps power and money have influenced their thinking ,i cant't say .But why do we say and do nothing We vote them in I think ,but i'm not even sure of this anymore

I applaud the decision of the Irish government.

As for the brickbats re the IRA I would level them at the U.S. to whom the IRA, the Stern gang, the Taliban (Under the USSR occupation of Afghanistan) the Contras etc were all freedom fighters, not terrorists. 'Vive le revolution' all 360 degrees of it!

Hell Saddam was a great dictator whilst he was their dictator, expediencey rules!

i see that there has been another 40 civilians killed in lebanon in the latest news by of course a non terrorist israel.good on the irish for not letting the us land bombs in their country. the scottish parliament should demand an apoogy from the us and demand that they stop using scotland to assist isreali murder. the only good thing that might come out of this is that hopefully the world will stop bowing to israel every time they mention the holocaust . the current people in charge of israel have no right to expect further for that outrage while they murder innocent lebanese. they do have the right to target hizbollah but not the innocent.
Scottish citizens need to wake up and vote for indeoendence to control their own country.

Sheikh Ali ben bej #61 above.
If GOD (Allah) is as omnipotent as the muslims say he is, then Im sure that he cannot be deceived by you. And you probably think God is muslim. One good thing about some muslims, they run away from countries with Islamic laws to enjoy liberty and freedom of choice somewhere else. When they get there, they try to deceive Allah by trying to implement the laws they ran away from. Where do you leave Skeikh Ali ben bej? remember Allah knows where you are.

66 67 your are poor bitter people who should appraise the situation befour screaming war cries at each other and everyone else for that matter

Russell

Democracy has but a thin veneer under which thrives the underlying foundation of our society, the parameters set out by the those with real power, the very rich and ultra right wing.

In the U.S. you vote for slightly different flavour of right wing, ultra or moderate. In the U.K. you vote for 2 different flavours of moderate middle of the road right wing. The controls are in place to make sure that we are as unlikely to become a facist police state as we are to become a psuedo Marxist dictatorship.

Stability through control, Whitehall lays down the real politic, politicians only exist to make us think we live in a democracy. Example: The people spoke on Iraq, we still became embroiled in what has become an unmitigated disaster. Profiteering from war is not a new thing and whilst the mechanisms of control stay in place, we will be the helpless spectator to such pointless, cruel and uneccessary loss of life.

I like stability, economic success and innovation through incentive, though I grow more and more disenchanted by the values which seem to underpin our relative prosperity.

"dave, US / 11:07am 30 Jul 2006

This board is full of sanctimonious, self reighout weiners. "oh, the wholesale destruction must stop"-are ou talking about Somalia or are you talking about the child rape committed by the U.N?

Here's how it will stop-when Hizballah is dead. You are no more than screaming, "I stand in opposition of those who would use weapons against nazis"..You deserve to be hit by terrorists you cowards. Israel fights and dies for you..You moan and whine like bitches."

<b>Meine Ehre Heißt Treue</b>

It is so frustrating that Scotland is always used for the purposes of what is an English government decides. I despair of my fellow Scots that they will ever take the self-respecting route of Ireland and stand up for themselves by voting for independence.

Anne

Scotland did vote for Independence and by any sensible criteria would have been Independant.

The criteria by which the thread of our independence hung was based on percentage of eligible voter turn out and not whether a majority of the electorate that chose to vote voted in favour, which they did.

Ireland was defined as an agrarian economy by Unesco no more than 15 years ago and is now an economic success story funded by the European bank. Unfortunately the European bank does not have the disposable cash neccessary for a simillar transformation as it is trying to integrate large chunks of Eastern Europe into the EEC.

Anne, what you must remember is that there are a lot of Scots in the labour party and many are presently serving in the cabinet. Many of those are drawn from the Irish immigrant community which came to Scotland to escape famine and persecution yet they would seem to have sold out for a sip from the heady brew which is power.

What would fire Scotlands fledgling economy? Oil? depends on existing reserves and what lies beneath, there are rumours of huge reserves off the West Coast, as yet unsubstantiated. Beyond that there is no one indigenous industry which would have the ability fire and support such an economy

Prestwick could be the next target in this dispicable war for world dominatin of oil resources

There's no busines like "Shoah" business. Israel has used up any residual sympathy the world felt for the oppressed and massacred Jews in WWII. Their successors have turned out to be despots as bad as the Nazis, they just have better PR.
Anyway it's not all Israel, they are sponsored by the fascist, militaryindustrial complex that is the USA. Another point, it could be argued that if USA had come into WWII earlier than they did, perhaps the Holocaust (Shoah) would never have happened. Instead they hung around profitting from the war, Bush family prominent in this, until Europe was exhausted and the "good ol' USA" could pick up the pieces.

I think the world would be a better place if you Americans stayed at home and sorted out all your problems, like schoolkids shooting their teachers and fellow pupils, 36,000 people murdered in gun crime a year; your nation is acting like you are all on crystal meth. We don't need you!
Hey guys, why don't you evacuate the population of Israel to the US, there's not many of them, fact you'd never notice them and you deserve one another.

Sounds good to me Stephan they certainly have the space and it would save them a lot of money however there might be job losses in the arms industry

Its odd that the US and Israel gets a bad reputation for defending itself against terrorists. I lost a cousin on 9/11. If countries and the UN throughout history had been reacting to terrorism the way Israel is reacting now terrorism would not be a problem. Hezbollah, by the way, is a terrorist organization that the Lebanon government (joke government) has allowed to fester in their country for years. Hezbollah hides in residential areas, schools and religious facilities. If you allow these organizations to exist in your countries then you take responsiblity for them and the death that occurs when countries retaliate against them. Wake up, eliminate the terrorists completely and make this world safe.

Personally I think the time has come for this Country to stand up to the U.S. and tell them to get all their Servicemen and women OUT of this Country, and any other parts of the United Kingdom, within 24 hours, if a NEUTRAL, such as Switzerland would be prepared to look after the rights of U.S citizens not serving with or allied to the U.S Forces, then the Embassy can pack its bags and go as well.

I think it is time to make Blair and Bush realise that "The Special Relationship" between our two countries exists ONLY in Political minds - the public do not believe in it so why continue the lie?

We fought Hitler to stop this sort of thing! why did we waste our time?

micheal
how long has your country been arming the IRA

let the byanks clean up tere own backyard first.And wipe off the debt were still repaying them for their part in WW2

directed to debra and carl,

i am irish , born in ireland.
you are born in america , therefore american .
you can comment on america , you are not qualified to speak for ireland .
ireland is not america , an independant country able to legislate for itself .
if you have a problem with that , thats tough .
also you should come over to ireland and make your comments .
if you came out with your abusive statements , you would be arrested for incitement of religious hatred .

Michael, further to Russell (80) how long has your country been arming the world? Training terrorists and calling them "freedom fighters" when it suited your pupose, OBL was CIA trainned, Saddam got weapons to fight Iran, USa has a long a dubious history of doing this, so by your logic perhaps the world should start by getting rid of the source the USA?

also , well done the french , they are not poodles like in the uk , and they are not pushed around by their governents , like in america , who are basically imperialist nazis .
we all know what happens to tyrants , read your history books .

Michael in Florida.

If you read your history back to the period 1945 - 48, you will see that PALESTINE was held under BRITISH Mandate with our Government of the day proposing to give half of the land to the Palestinians and the remaining half to the JEWS. This did not suit the Jews and they started MURDERING British soldiers, some of whom had fought the Germans or the Japs, and even went so far as blow up the 'King David' Hotel - quite a few British troops remember that, those who are still alive.

The JEWS used pretty much the same sort of tactics as are used now with the weaponry then available and so, possibly under pressure from your country, the YOUNG United Nations revoked our Mandate and gave the whole country to the JEWS.

I promise you one thing, Bush ever stops supplying Israel - all the Jews who back him in whatever fashion will DUMP him very swiftly, the Jews love America! because you are helping and letting commit MURDER.

THEY DO NOT WANT PEACE AND IF THEY SAY THEY DO - THEY ARE LIEING.

Stephen

What should be remembered here is that there are innocents in Israel also who to an extent are a hostage to a wider politic. I am sure most Israeli's would like to live in peace and prosperity with no threat of rocket attacks by their neighbours.

The wider politic is driven from Washington and is deliberate by design, to keep the middle east de-stabilised. There is no black and white simplistic view to be taken here, the death of any innocent no matter what colour, creed or religion is one too many.

In terms of the existence of Israel, what is done is done, the solution is simple America must put aside it's self obsessed policy on fossil fuel and start to work with the rest of the world in creating sustainable clean fuel sources.

The middle east will become less of a hot potato and Israel will not be such an important forward base for America. The UN should be given teeth and America should reverse the political vasectomy which it has inflicted on that organisation for 60 years, give it back its potency Throw in some political viagra and force resolutions through which stop the Arab nations feeling disenfranchised and their youth becoming fodder for the extremist.

As an American I truly appreciate the support we have recieved from England, Scotland, Ireland and Whales. This is a war on terrorism and there are paralells to WWII when the US was slow to join the fight. I also understand that WWII had a much greater impact on Europe, with the loss of life and property, which I think still affect the politics and thinking of Europe today. That said, after repeated attacks by extremist the US has responded. It was time to stop this movement that has jeprodized people all over the world and oppressed the people of the Middle East. I think the killing of Anwar Sadat was the event that made the situation most clear to me. Any leader in the Middle East who intends to embrace progress or democracy would be attacked. The war in Lebanon is part of the bigger picture. We have our own ambivilence in this country, but overall we need to remain committed to a stable Middle East, free of extremist.

Robert Burns - Such a Parcel o Rogues in a Nation file:///D:/my%20docs%20D%20drive/Parcel%20of%20Rogues.htm
1 of 1 2006/07/30 02:19 PM
'The rose of all the world is not for me, I want for my part only the little white rose of
Scotland, That smells sharp and sweet, And breaks the heart.'
Hugh MacDairmid.
Such A Parcel Of Rogues In A Nation
By Robert Burns, 1791
Fareweel to our Scottish fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory;
Fareweel ev'n to the Scottish name,
Sae fam'd in martial story.
Now Sark rins over Solway sands,
An' Tweed rins to the ocean,
To mark where England's province stands-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
What force or guile could not subdue,
Thro' many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling traitor's wages.
The English stell we could disdain,
Secure in valour's station;
But English gold has been our bane-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
O would, orI had seen the day
hat Treason thus could sell us,
My auld grey head had lien in clay,
Wi' Bruce and loyal Wallace!
But pith and power, till my last hour,
I'll mak this declaration;
We're bought and sold for English gold-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
Back to Alba Publishing

Sid. See my post at 45.

Anyone that believes that they can negotiate with terrorists are crazy. The fact remains that US and Israel have only retaliated after being attacked. P belfast, Russell, from South Africa, now there is a country with great record on its human rights, why don't you all invite Hezbollah to come live and exist in your country, by the way invite Hamas also. See how long you are safe. Appeasement does not work with these people and never will.

Hi Ross - the Israeli people are not being well served by their government then. But, surely the Tel Aviv government are a bit more sophisticated than to be simply US puppets. What's in it for them? Although I don't think they would above sacrificing a few, many even, of their people to achieve their aims, which must be the acquisition of more territory.
As for the US, time is running out, they have to acquire more oil stocks, the lights are already going out in places - California in the last few days. The lights going out is what really frightens US politicians.
The risk is the US government will, or has miscalculated and will start an unstoppable conflagration in the area. After all they don't want to use nuclear weapons there as they will contaminate the oil fields for the conceivable future. So, it comes to grunts on the ground and I bet the US doesn't have the stomach for an all or nothing fight for the worlds remaining oil, but that is where it is heading. The simple solution is for the US to use a lot less oil, that would help the whole world, but imagine being the US president that has to tell the US people that good news.

Michael do you even know where SA is peace and harmony reign in that great country human rights ,I dont think you are very well read,black white indians couloureds all of us live in relative harmony ,and i have visited most parts of the world and have yet to see less bigotry

what horrible injustice to the Irish & many in Scotland have we, the American people, & the Israeli people done, to warrant such remarks because of the transporting of bombs thru your airports to help such a small nation survive. a nation that many in the region wants not to exist.

Another way to put this is: the Irish losers in Ireland refused to come to the aid of their winning Irish brethren who moved to the usa a long time ago to get away from their loser Irish brethren in Ireland.

INCIDENTALLY ANYONE WITH A PEACE LOVING NATURE CAN LEARN FROM OUR TRANSITION IN A GREAT PART DUE TO NELSON MANDELLAS FORGIVENESS AND A PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK TOGETHER

"P belfast, Russell, from South Africa, now there is a country with great record on its human rights, why don't you all invite Hezbollah to come live and exist in your country, by the way invite Hamas also. "

michael in florida , maybe i will invite them around , why not ?thats an excellent suggestion.

P BELFAST hold that comment we the scots were used as cannon fodder blame the English and The crown

Sheikh Ali ben bej at 90. I take your point, but that situation came about ONLY after the War and they had got their own way over PALESTINE. So you say the Americans had been 'bought'.

i blame cromwell , leading to the elected dictatorhsip we have now .
who believes the politicians represent the people?
they are dictators . who are they to lecture the world on democracy ?

I'd rather drink poison than be in living in an Islamic land. Look at Iran where gay people are executed if they are found out.
No religion but Islam is allowed in Saudi Arabia.
Women are not even allowed to drive cars, or even leave home or enter a hotel without a male be it relative or husband with them in some of these societies.

But some Christians here in the USA are just as bad, just as obnoxious, rude and insulting as Sheik Ali Ben Bej claiming that their way and their religion is the only religion for all and all else is infidel.
USA is not perfect, but you can be Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Bahai, or no religion, anything you want, and that is your right.

I am tired of the insolvable Middle East conflicts and who is Israel, to tie us up and to own us, let them duke it out with Hezbollah and Hezbollah duke it out with Israel. it's their fight and their problem, not ours. Each side has this eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth philosophy that goes back and forth endlessly.

We need to stop our adventures around the world and solve our own problems at home.

We also create and export the worst and trashiest of American popular culture, ugly and
meaningless noises, vibrations and pulsations that passes for "music", nasty, tasteless and immodest American clothing fashions of the day around the world.

Here in the USA, we have still have the aftermath of Katrina hurricane, people who can't read and write, people who are hungry and sick and living in poverty, a need to balance energy, industry and transportation requirements while at the same time finding new ways to cut the US contribution to pollution and global warming, an on-going disrepect for minorities within our borders, a war on gay people to limit their rights and deny those who are in committed partnered relationships their need to care for each other in times of legal and medical need.

USA has enough on its plate at home and

the reason why NI has a poor human rights record is due to the UK government .
notice any pattern developing ?
have the UK not learnt any lessons?
you cant nuke an individual .

Stephen

The what's in it for them element was the formation of the nation called Israel, in the long term the continued existence of a Jewish state. Israel does not have a strong economy, where is the sustainable indigenous industry? Beyond fruit growing and minimal hi tech? Also Israel I would imagine has a crippling defence budget, irrespective of U.S. subsidy.

Israel needs the U.S. and the U.S. needs Israel, both for economic reasons, one for oil and the other for defence. The irony is if one did not play duplicitous politics in the region, the other might not need to be armed to the teeth.

Not only bought Sid; they have prostituted themselves.

Sheikh Ali ben bej @ 98. Is it me? or is the average, untravelled, American able to handle a quiet, hopefully intelligent, conversation? even if they appear to be on the wrong end of things?

They certainly need their History lessons, mind that said, so do some of my lot! BLAIR for one

anyway , i like cheap oil , its cool .

i predict after lebanon , next will be iran , and then turkey , for the pipeline to come out in the med.

electricity companies being bought up by america , then pushing the prices up .
one piece at a time .
legalise drugs , 24 hour drinking , keep the fools busy , while we have our hands in the till.
where does all our tax money go to ?
who is accountable ?
no one it seems

I wish i could resort to your level but you disgrace arace of good people who i am proud to have as ancestors\

Sheikh Ali ben bej (111). That's unfair to prostitues, they work for their money AND a lot of them could teach the average female a GREAT deal about personal cleanlyness.

i am british anyway , but i can still see what is going on .
i dont have to go into the boxes we are pushed into .

it just makes me sick paying tax , to a corrupt system , when the nhs is going down the pan , and the tax goes to more wars.
i feel sorry for the arabs .
they should show some solidarity and stand up for themselves.
saudi should feel ashamed of themselves .
how can they call themselves religious when they are acting like playboys and not intervening in the world.
tossers

The feedback comments in this article speak for themselves.
The level of Israel and America bashing from all the peace loving citizens of Europe is disgraceful.

You Europeans can always be counted on to rise to the Israel bashing occasion with gusto.

Israel have every right to defend herself.The people in the villages of South Lebanan have been warned repeatedly over the passed number of days to leave the warzone(more that Hezbullah ever does for Israeli citizens)) if the villegers choose to stay,they seal their fate.
To all you "peaceloving Europeans" all that is left to say is enjoy your dhimitude you've certainly earned it
AM ISRAEL CHAI
G-D BLESS aMERICA

the crusades part deux.

what does "peace loving "mean ?
be a sheep ...or a poodle ...or bend over , do what you are told .
there is alaways an agenda , and it is not in favour of the "people" , but to suit corupt politicians interests.

The 'neutral' Irish didn't object to servicing the Nazi U Boats in the war that were sinking our ships.

And Israel should Colonise both Palestine and Lebanon that way we just might see 'Produce of Palestine' in the world supermarkets. The only things that these countries produce are terrorists and suicide bombers.

Debbie 117 How would you like to be told by some terrorist nation such as Israel to pack your bags and leave your home in Toronto?

Murchadh @ 105. I am not patronising you so don't take this wrong but your's is the most sensible comment I've read from your side of this verbal 'contest' - one thing I will take up with you are your comments regarding Sheikh Ali ben bej, I've read his remarks and found them polite, maybe not to your liking, but nonetheless polite and I've answered on occassion.

Perhaps if a few more of your countrymen, Bush & Co included, you might realise that the British put their 'Gunboat' in dry dock decades ago.

#86 - Ross

Amongst the vitriol of others your reasoned comments
are a welcome relief.
I am old enough to remember the activities of organisations such as the Stern Gang, many of whom went on to be Israel's political leaders.
I remember the time when every right-wing tinpot dictator in Central America was America's best new friend.
I remember when Saddam was America's best new friend and the recipient of Haliburton's 'goodies'.
I remember when the Taliban forces were America's best new friend.
America has had so many best new friends that it is sometimes hard to keep up. The 'friendship' usually only lasts for as long as it is in the selfish interests of America.

p. Belfast, tell you what, while you're blaming Oliver Cromwell (and I do NOT disagree with you) how about James VI as well?

87 just to point out it is WALES.
I think it is ironic that Ireland should be so choosey about transfer planes landing at Shannon with munitions. They were not so careful when it was munitions to attack NORTH IRELAND AND THE MAIN LAND OF THE UK
Oops come to think of it was it not America supporting the IRA. Also it has been forgotten that political assination was then quite fashionable with the attempt on Prime minister Thatchers life, and again a missile fired into the cabinet room of 10 Dowing street. The Death of MP Airy Neeve at the house of commons. I could go on and include Lord Mountbatton. Long live the UK we did not take revenge and bomb Dublin

People are going off track with this article.....

Good on Ireland...Standing up to the American bullies...to many countries are thinking to much about how them standing up for what they really think is the right thing to do, because they don't want to damage their relationship with Mr Bush.
The sooner he is out of presidency the better the world will be for it... why is he so happy to suggest bombs and wars before looking at other options.

I would be proud to be Irish after that statement...

"There is absolutely no way that we would allow munitions or weapons to be shipped through Shannon to a location where there is an actual war going on. We would not allow it."

Sheikh Ali ben bej re: 121. You learned your English well - An American (he was one of THE best)I once worked with about 35 years ago told a fellow American that nobody could insult people as politely as the English.

re: 123. She has surely got to be a Jew?

p,belfast--please educate us with the "intellectual" side, that i just know is well hidden. Israel has done what to the Arab world, & America has done what to all of Europe, to warrant your hateful remarks?

Ross - Israel has sizeable weapons, software and telecommunications industries, among others. I daresay their industries would be more diverse if they did not spend so much on weapons. They would not have to spend so much on weapons if it were not for their "beggar thy neighbour" policies. They could have easily come to an accommodation with the Palestinians in the last six years. But, Ariel Sharon during his efforts to be elected had to go to the Temple Mount with troops armed to the teeth, to prove he could. That started the most recent Palestinian intefada. Now, you could acuse the Palestinians of being touchy, but so would we if we'd had nearly 60 years of their treatment. Israels continued existence has never been in doubt as long as they had US support, so why stir up the hornets nest.
The USA has now been shown to be pretty impotent in Iraq where they have 150,000 men trapped. It might be bad now, wait till they try to withdraw! All the miltant Islamic forces are rubbing their hands in glee at the American predicament.
The Israelis better try to be nice to their neighbours, they've tried everything else and it didn't work. Too much stick, not enough carrot!
I see the US has backed down and will not be shipping weapons through Scotland, today at least - the power of The Scotsman? Er, and women.

The irish are a pimple on the worlds rearend who have allowed themselves to be dominated by the Brits for hundreds of years. Unable to throw off the Brits as did the Scotts and Americans, the irish continue to wimper and snivel and whine anytime force is required to deal with a problem.

We, the American people, we continue to fight for right regardless of what the wimpering, snivelling, cowards of the world do.

The USA is THE ONLY super-power. We will lead. The rest of you slouches can either follow or get the he// out of the way!

Bush said it and we darn well mean it: "You are either for us or against us". Remember that the next time Germany or some other fascist country decides to take over the world. We sure will. The muslims can have ireland as a playground for all we care.

You are right Sid I am Jewish and very proud of that fact. I wondered how long it would take on this forum before the anti Israel bashing would be revealed for what it is, blatent antisemitism.
I knew it would not be long before you antisemitic vermin woould come crawling out of the gutter.

Sheike you and your friends make humanity cringe

Debbie (128).

A very impressive list and, who knows, probably all bought and paid for with the US$ (The Shekel by now I should think is about worthless), and normally I would be suitably impressed.

Your forgot to mention, however, a murder ratio of approximately 9-1 in Israels' favour.

I have no problem with anyone defending themselves, but when then start bringing in EVERYTHING against civilians, the Lebanese Forces are not up to Israels' calibre (your admittance) then it becomes bloody murder.

Debbie - How can you reduce criticism of Israeli pogroms to antisemitism?

Sheike
Bya ll your very posts on this forum,you have proved my point. You know you are wrong so the best you can come up with is to call me a "stupid woman and neuritic" You arab men are such a catch

Stephen,Israel is defending herself. We were attacked first....... remember

I thought that Canada was a decent country that only allowed "desirable" immigrants in; how did you get there then. And its neurotic and not neuritic.

Hurrah the Irish!

Why on earth should the Irish people be complicit in any way with the Israeli government policy of bombing the hell out of Lebanon?

The Irish and we Scots don't have any answers to the problems that beget the Middle East, we should only participate in humanitarian activities there.

It's also about time that Bush and Blair got a grip on reality and put their relationship with Israel on an even keel.

They wont be doing Israel any favours long term by bank rolling Israels mis-adventures in the region time after time after time.

Estivan...your history books need to be re-read if you read them at all!

By the by China will soon catch up to you in super power stakes...then what...nuke China?

A courageous move on the part of the Irish govt. Would that the latest 'poodle' PM of our new minority Con govt here had the same principles.

Debbie - We're talking tit-for-tat, who did what to whom? That won't solve much. Who's going to count up all Israels victims in the region over the years, the displacement of populations etc. Any reasonable person can see a clear lack of proportion, can you really see any moral vindication?

The main point of this discussion is that Scotland doesn't want to be drawn into America's and Israels obscene wars.

Dear All, from your standing point of view it's easy to comment everything that's going on when the truth is as follows: lebanese civilians Are dying as i write this, Lebanon is not Hezbullah & the government cannot disarm the guerrillas since it would clash a civil war! Christian lebanese (half lebanon population) are dying in a war they did not ask for & the whole world is watching & doing nothing to cease fire... Children are paying the price... A whole country is devastated with no safe place to go to.. Israel & the US r fighting terrorism when in fact They are the Biggest Terrorist that could exist & the radical muslim terrorism has evolved as a response to Their actions! God Save Lebanon & it's people especially Civilians!
Thank u Ireland

Debbie (151): "Stephen,Israel is defending herself. We were attacked first....... remember"

When you carry out the actions that Israel has not only is it a disappropriate use of force it becomes murder. I point to the attack on Qana where 27 children where killed as just one clear example.

Stephen no one want war,what do you suggest Israel does. Israel is fighting for her existance. If we don't fight back it would only empower terrorist groups like hizbullah etc to attack. You may have to fight for for your country's existance one day

Debbie, your 141.

Semite:- A member of any peoples supposed to be descended from Shem, son of Noah - including especially Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, Babylonians and Phoenicians.

This is a nice one, you are assumedly Canadian born of Jewish parents - Sheikh Ali ben bej is assumedly Arabic by birth of Arabic parents, and YOU accuse ME of being Anti-Semitic???

I have spent 5 years of my life working with English born Jews, followed with 5 years of working with Ugandan born Muslims and found the Muslims the more HONEST in EVERY respect.

Remember!! to dislike somebody does NOT make them Anti-semitic.

Do yourself a favour and take the Sheikh's advice and grow up.

Scotland has already been victim to American mis-adventurism, remember Lockerbie. The destruction of PanAm 103 was revenge for some other American action, maybe the bombing of Tripoli and Benghazi and that was retalition for...

We do not want to be held hostage to fortune just because the US wants to buddie up to Israel, ok? Just a pity candy-ass Tony Blair doesn't get the picture.

IT IS EUROPEAN MONEY THAT HAS PAID FOR THE TERRORISM IN THE WORLD. YOUR BUYING OF OIL FROM IRAN HAS LED TO ZELZAL MISSLES POINTED AT ISRAEL AND ULTIMATELY AT SCOTLAND AND BRITAIN. NOW YOU BLAME THE JEWS. IT REMINDS ME OF THE UBIQITOUS UNDERGRADUATE RAT STUDY WHERE ONE RAT WAS SHOCKED BY THE EXPERIMENTER AND THEN THE SHOCKED RAT ATTACKED THE SECOND RAT IN THE CAGE THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WHOLE MATTER. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE HERE IS THAT THE RATS SPEAK.

AS A POSITIVE STEP YOU ALL (INCLUDING ALI) MIGHT TRY READING JARED DIAMOND'S COLLAPSE: HOW SOCIETIES CHOOSE TO FAIL OR SUCCEED. THE ONLY PROBLEM I FORESEE IS THAT WITH A NAME LIKE JARED DIAMOND, HE MAY BE OF JEWISH ORIGIN AND YOU MIGHT NOT WISH TO GET INVOLVED.

Lao
I keep on repeating myself so this forum is getting very boring. These villagers were warned repeatedly to leave,they live in a war zone they support hizbullah, Israel has been fighting hizbullah with restraint I may add Hizbulah hid their rocket launchers and ammo in the home of these people what did they expect

Debbie - Israel is not fighting a war of survival, it is the only state in the middle east known to be nuclear armed. I don't think there is any doubt Israel would use them if they were about to be overrun. That what scares the rest of the world, doesn't it scare you, in Toronto?

To #8 Ahmed in Glasgow

What sort of delusional simpleton would purposely act in the manner you stated ? Putting a flight crew and possibly bystanders lives at risk in the event of an inflight failure caused by sabotage is terrorism.

I'd be willing to bet you already know that.

sid145---perhaps you as the standing "intellectual" in this forum, might enlighten us. how many actual "bomb" shelters did the Lebanon/hezbollah gov't provide for their civilians? how many "leaflets" warning the Israeli civilians about incoming bombs, did hezbollah drop? what did Hamas do with the homes & farm rich fields in Gaza that was given back to them by Israel? what did Lebanon/hezbollah do with the land on the Israeli/Lebanon border that Israel gave back? what exactly does hezbollah & hamas produce or manufacture besides bomb belts for their most innocent youngsters.

Jared Diamond, any relation to Neil Diamond?

At the risk of repeating what someone else has said...if you are told to leave a place you have lived all your life and have no where to go, or any safe route to get there as Israel is bombing anything that moves (must be US trained) would you go?

And the use of cluster bombs in urdan areas is not using restraint...it is the actions of a government that doesn't give a monkeys about the people it kills. Incidentally the use of cluster bombs in urban areas is internationally condemed.

sandy, USA
First.. Why the hell would Israel Give back a land When It's someone's else... It Means they STOLE THE GOD DAMN land... If u were being Bomber & the leaflets are telling u to leave... WHERE THE hell would u leave & who told u that Israel is letting people move around.. they r Hitting any target that moves & even walks... Don't think it's a walk in the park when u're sitting on ur comfort sofa at home knowing nothing what's really going on here.. Israel is Far more terrorist than hezbullah could ever be...

(174) was directed at Debbie.

Oh sid I was wondering when you would bring up the fact they you know Jews have worked with Jews etc. I am supprised you don't tell me your best friends are Jewish.
Yes Sid Arabs and Jews are both Semites but that is where any similarity ends.
Don't assume I am Canadian born ,I'm not.
Not all muslims are semites only ones of Arab decent and I don't think Ugandan muslims fall into that catagory.
I do not hate muslims where in my posts have I said that?
I work with muslims too and like them a lot, some of them are secular and some more observant, none of them are as rude as you,see your post # 132.
Sid maybe you are not anti semitic but you are certain anti Jewish.

Sandy, your 107. As I have not been sarcastic at all in my postings, you can knock that habit out straight away! I have no intention of rising to anyone's bait. If you are as 'Intellectual' as you say I am, try - from the start - reading ALL my postings (but read what is written NOT what you choose).

Stephen
Nuclear arms are a deterrent.

Lao # 174.They can thank hizbullah for that. hizbullah hides amongst them and forces these people to stay,it is a tragedy,but Israel must defend herself

So that justifies the use of Culster bombs? and not say Laser guided bombs which the yanks sold Israel?

Good for the Irish! Showing some guts.

Stated goal: Overthrow/occupation of Iran (with Syria implied) as Member of "Axis of Evil" Club.

Unstated goal: Total control of region's resources (oil, water) of Iran, Iraq, etc.

Method:

* Make false accusations (for home consumption) of WMD and emminent threats. (Again. It worked with the Iraq invasion.)
* Portray Israel as an innocent but threatened democracy and close friend of the US.
* Allow Israel to provoke Palestinians with brutal oppression in hopes of a military response. (Kill thousands, steal land, water, top soil, demolish homes using collective punishment, build apartheid walls etc.)
* Give billions of dollars and billions in military weapons to Israel to "protect" them from rock throwing kids and the occasional suicide bomber. Include weapons that can be used in a full scale war, like bunker buster bombs and illegal cluster bombs. (Also allow Israel all of the nuclear weapons that they want.)
* When the provoked response finally happens, voting for the "wrong" party in Palestine or lobbing mostly ineffectual rockets from Lebanon, support Israel's preplanned disproportionate response as totally justified.
* Link Iran and Syria to ANY response to Israel's aggression.
* Come to Israel's "aid" by attacking Syria and Iran.
* Start World War 3

Israel has done enough to hurt Hezbollah and now is hurting herself .We need thoughful solutions, not hatred here. An international presence is required. One is not suppose to be ofensive here,but some just like to rant against other peoples.

If it removes hizbullah fo the border areas yes .Tell me Lao would you like hizbollah as your neighbour

greatangelina176---now, can you possibly answer my questions without the bad language & better spelling, please?

Deb probablly as much as i would like Israel as my neighbour!!!!!

Racheal (130) is absolutely correct - once again, comments to a Scotsman article have gone way off track - presumably because the Americans do not have local newspapers where the can conduct debates? I would prefer they keep their ill-informed and xenophobic opinions to themselved. The only people in the world who consider the US to be a great world power are US citizens! Many of whom (approx 86%) have never held a passport!

Look to the comment earlier from a US resident : "England, Scotland, Ireland and Whales." Whales...... well I rest my case...........

And back to the issue.... WELL DONE IRELAND.

Debbie, 178:-
"Yes Sid Arabs and Jews are both Semites but that is where any similarity ends", think back to your accusation of me being anti-semitic!!
"Not all muslims are semites only ones of Arab decent and I don't think Ugandan muslims fall into that catagory", I said Muslims I worked with were Ugandan BORN.
"I do not hate muslims where in my posts have I said that?" I don't know where you pulled this one from - that is not my accusation against you! I suggest you re-read something!!
"I work with muslims too and like them a lot, some of them are secular and some more observant, none of them are as rude as you,see your post # 132". I was merely re-iterating a comment of an American, one I got on very well with, and who was a GENTLEMAN - One of about 5 Americans in an English Environment at any one time and like by ALL the Englishman that knew him.
"Sid maybe you are not anti semitic but you are certain anti Jewish". I think my comparison on trust between Muslim and Jew is a safer way of phrasing and the same comparison would apply regarding the American Nation.

Debbie - If nuclear arms are a deterrent then everybody should have them, not just a few who can, will then terrorise the rest. I'll remind you that the only time they have been used in anger was by the USA in 1945. Not because the US was at threat of being conquered, but to shorten the war. Japan could not have been deterred because they did not know the US had them.
Another example of US state terrorism?
I hesistate to ask, what was J Robert Oppenheimer's provenance?

Definitly Sandy, i could do that.. but excuse my unability to write properly under the direct fire of the F16 planes.. & the voices of the crying children around me.. I Am A christian who's whole family is paying the price for the hatred & crimes Of the Jews & Muslims... When u are sooo far from the actual war and writing a message on your PC it's easy to judje people.. but when u're in it with no food no gaz & tomorow morning no electricity & probably after it i may not be able to reply to u coz i would be 'dead'... Then i will talk nicely and spell correctly

Well sheike now I undertand why arab countres are sooo backward have acheived nothing in the last 500 years,have not made any contrubutions to the progress of humanity and are steeped in hatred. You are all to be pitied

(Debbie, Toronto) I didn't want to reply onyou 197 comment... But just to remind you that u know nothing about history .. go ask some college professor who invented the alphabet so u can write or participate in any of these debates.. It's the ancestors of the lebanese who are the Phoenicians!!! go check some history & then please show us yours...( other than the weapons that is to destroy everything that has been invented already)

Well (Sheikh Ali ben bej) they didn't yet since the christian side of the country hasn't been fully destroyed but the day after tomorow there will be no electricity anymore.. so i guess people in this forum will not miss me

Debbie - That would have assured the annihilation of Iran, surely that would be counterproductive? Israel is rational but Iran not? Surely Israeli actions at this time are irrational, well, they are from my viewpoint?

Lao
I direct you to my post #128. Can you show me hizbollah's contributions to humanity. It is too bad you feel the way you do. I suggest you visit Israel one day,you may be pleasantly suprised

#139 Estivan, Texas

"Remember that the next time Germany or some other fascist country decides to take over the world. We sure will. The muslims can have ireland as a playground for all we care."

Germany is NOT a fascist country. Go back to school.

Let's get to the crux of the whole thing here. It isn't about who hates who... it isn't about anti-Semitism.... it isn't about religion... THIS IS ALL ABOUT LAND AND RESOURCES! Period.

The rest of it all comes after this fact. All the nonsense about someone's "God" saying that they have a right to some land, claims of being the "chosen people", "Allah's promises" to the faithful, etc. Bunk for the chumps to quibble about.

It is about land and resources!!! Wake up and smell the oil!!!

Stephen do you really think aminijihad cares about the average iranian person.
you have to understand, we Jews are not just a nation we are as brothers and sisters to one another. If you hurt one of us we all feel it. It may be difficult for someone who is not Jewish to understand,but then I am sure you have a lot of familyand cousins living.I do not most of my family were wiped out by the Nazis

If any organisation/government goes around killing inocent people then they are noting to be proud of! You should try thinking about that after all are the people of Lebanon children of a lesser god?

Oh wad some power the giftie gie us to see oursels as others see us!

To whom it may apply.

If you lived in a neighborhood where everyone denied your right to exist, repeatedly attacked and set off bombs around your house, then came and kidnapped your children, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

Greatangelina

My ancestors have been in The holy Land of Israel for thousands of years on a continuous basis and we will continue to be there eternally. I plan to move there in hte not so distant future.So hi neighbour.
As for the Phoenicians they are a long dead people. But the Jews are still here, get over it

It is interesting to see all you people talking about Israel and what is happening in Lebanon. Don't speak for me whether you are in USA, Canada, South Africa or Britain

I live 3km from the border of Lebanon in the Galillee panhandle, 2km south of Metula and 2km north of Kiryat Shmona. I have lived here most of my life except for the time I did in the Army and the time I spent travelling.

We are hearing the Katushyas going over regularly and we are spending a lot of time in the bomb shelters. That is all the families. We are also all jewish.

Well done Ireland for stopping the bombs landing at their airport. I am sorry that Scotland has not done the same.

I and everyone around me at the moment think Israel's response is disproportionate (if that is how you spell it - my english is not so good) - we are not alone in Israel. We have a right to defend ourselves as me and my family truly understand having lived here since 1921.

Our current prime minister is doing the same as Ariel Sharon did in the last Lebanon war. It is not good for our country what is now happening.

Please dont speak for us when you write on here. Speak only of what you know.

Just another reason why Scotland needs to be set free from this dreaded 'Act of Union'.

see www.our-scotland.org to discuss Scottish Politics and Current Affairs

well done zohar .

i have nothing against jews, or even most americans . it is the governments of all these countries that are corrupt , not the people , since the politicians ignore the people .
it is all an excuse to provoke a war , to introduce emergency teror legislation and therefore deprive the taxpayers of their rights.

#35 Hi Sheikh Ali ben bej,
and salaam to you , just stop calling me an infidel, though I am not of your faith, I do believe, believe it or not

Whether Arab or Jew, you are sons and daughters sharing an ancient ancestor, according to your own histories, and yet you have been fighting each other for over 3,000 years. I can't pretend to understand why and by now I doubt if anyone in that region can either; it has just become a way of life, all rationalized and justified in the collective mind of each side. All I really know is that the world has grown too small for your internecine tribal warfare and now your violence threatens everyone.

War does not, and never has, prevented more war. Reading the insults being hurled back and forth here, I am saddened to think how far away a true global peace might be. Everyone is so concerned with being clever or right, with 'getting a good one off', with winning. What will you do when there is nothing left to win, only the wind blowing over rubble and graves?

No Angelina we exist because of our covenent with the Holy One blessed be his name(and I don't mean allah) .The covenent is what binds us to the Holy Land the covenent is eternal get over it

Debbie Please tell me HOW do u defer from the muslim radical ideas.. & ideologies that we face here in lebanon? you r still hanging over a peace of worthless land, that was cursed by the wrong doings of men filled with hatred & ugliness.... i don't hate anyone to be honest.. all i can do is weap over the destiny of this east & holy land where everyone is fighting for... I mean we (the christians) can not go there to pray in the land where jesus was born & lived then crusified?? who's being more religious & radical? You or the Muslims?

Debbie - You have to ask does any politician give a rat's for any of the people, I suspect the answer is no. You certainly have to have thick skin to be a politician, buts it's a bit cynical to suggest that Ahmedinijad cares less for his people that Ehud Olmert does for his. If the arab people felt the same way about other arabs that you say Jews do about Jews then Israel would be in real trouble now. They would have more to worry about than where their next consignment of bunker busters was coming from.
All any Israeli politician thinks they have to do is use the word terrorism or terrorist a few times and their actions are vindicated. Well the word terrorism has taken on a new national identity in the last few days and is more associated with Israeli. I haven't seen anyone on this site say Israel is not entitled to defend her interests it is a question of how and to what extent. I hope the world is not going to stand back and allow genocide once again, Israel has to be stopped, by any means.

James of England. When did I call you an infidel; I was referring to yanks and jews. And p of Belfast; read all the posts of one Debbie of Toronto and then you may alter your opinion about hating jews. She has committed an atrocity against the state of Israel by giving that state bad publicity through her neurotic rantings.

Time to rewrite the song title Scotland the Brave to Ireland the Brave....... I think Ireland just ensured it isn't on the Al Qu'aida A list...........See this video
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14258.htm

sorry piece of land not peace of land but it's just what i wish for every second so i kinda wrote it like that

Europe continues on the foolishness that allows terrorism to blossom because they are afraid of doing the right thing and destroy radical islam. Israel and the middle east mostly belonged to other nations until Muslims came in and destroyed them to impose their death cult. A few groups that maintain their own religion suffer Dhimmi abuse while living among the murderess muslims (even muslims' daughters or wives are not immune to be killed over "honor").

Israel should destroy it's enemies who send suicide bombers and launch missiles randomly into their country while the rest of the world don't call their enemies on their crimes, but if Israel does anything then it's a horrible crime! What a double standard! The modern creation is full of issues, but they have more right to live in their homeland than the Muslims and punish their enemies. Europe has become a bunch of pansies that can't work more than 30-35 hours a week or have trouble surviving without their "nanny" states.

EU is filled with bunch of noodle-spined numbskulls and the UN is just filled with blowhards more interested in their personal power and pocketbook. The UN has been in the area for 28 years and useless as usual. Fortunely, no Food for Sex or other scandals have come to light yet, but there is enough information to prove they are helping terrorists directly or indirectly.

I will agree that peace is necessary, but not until the terrorists are wiped from the earth and not allowed to fester like an untreated wound. The situations allowed to exist in the name for "peace" in the middle east will become worst the next time things get out of hand again!

Iran and Syria are assisting the terrorists and the world turns a blind eye, which is just foolishness again. They are a danger to the world and should be destroyed, but no one has the spine to get things done right. Everyone attempts to blame Israel, US, or whoever for the troubles of the

Stephen what do you mean by any means.. the annhilation of Israel. Think about what you just said Israel is not going anywhere it is staying right where it is. We will not be destroyed again.
I think aminijhad is one of the most evil leaders in the world today and there are plenty to choose from. Maybe my commnet is cynical but I stand by it.

Hey Carl your welcome

Stephen (the facts) /Debbie (Just telling the truth not Israeli bashing)

Israel is heavily dependent on US aid and credits for military purchases. It is the biggest recipient of American economic and military aid in the world, amounting to around US$3,000 million a year. The economy is heavily dependent on defence and the service industries. In 2001, 17 per cent of government expenditure was spent on defence and 13 per cent on health. In 2003 military expenditure totalled US$10,325 million. Despite limited natural resources, Israel has intensively developed its agricultural and industrial sectors over the past 20 years. Diamonds, high-technology equipment, fruits, and vegetables are leading exports. To earn foreign exchange, Israel targets niches in international markets with high-technology products such as medical-scanning equipment.

Source Encarta.

Booster:213, your words.

"Oh wad some power the giftie gie us to see oursels as others see us!

To whom it may apply."

and mine!

The WHOLE of mankind.

i have one question to u Debbie & really hope u answer that... why does Israel Hate Christian lebanese? isn't the state that supports israel (USA) filled with a christian population? isn't George Bush himself christian? answer

Preston United States #87

Thanks for your sincere and thoughtful contribution. I agree entirely.

Debbie - I am not advocating the destruction of Israel, just that they be stopped in the destruction of their neighbours. Israel is banking huge resentment in the middle-east and throughout the world for it's hostilities. Israeli self-interest should dictate that she be more measured. America is a fair weather friend.

Murchadh USA #105

I agree with you. If we all cultivated our own gardens the world would be a better place.

#244 Stephen, Forres

"America is a fair weather friend."

Truer words were never spoken. When America reaches her "goals" in the Middle East, they will kick Israel in her ass as easily as they did to their other "fair weather friends" i.e., Iraq, et al.

The biggest laugh would be if this Prestwick fiasco would push the Scottish voters to elect a government which achieves a Scottish Independant country. Then we could get money for shipping American arms and forces world wide.

www.michaelsavage.com

Debbie Toronto #128

Thanks for the facts about Israel. I admire the way they have progressed.

But why can't they live with their neighbours? Why do they have to be such brutes? Why can't they abide by the UN resolutions, the UN having given them the golden chance in the first place?

Totally agree William (248), but worst case senario is that one of these planes is brought down over Scotland and we suffer Lockebie all over again!

Lucifer Ayshire #143

I've just been down the pub for my Sunday devotions. I come back and this thread has gone in all directions. I have to spend my siesta time putting things right again!

I know what you meant and the significance of it. I was just testing the group and their reaction.

Debbie:221.
Your comment "sheike and sid there is an old saying keep your mouth shut and people will only think you are a fool, open it and you confirm their suspions.You two have truely confirmed my suspicions".

Question: Why is it that Americans (and this is where YOU are following their trend) fail at a given point to be able to continue a discussion without being impolite or rude?

The fact that you do not like me worries me not a jot and I do not suppose for one moment the Sheikh Ali will lose much sleep. Remember YOU jumped on me - I have, with difficulty, tried to be patient and polite so I shall say this ONCE! You do not like me? FINE! CLOSE THE DOOR AND GOOD BYE.

Debbie Toronto # 151

No Debbie.

Israel attacked first, in 1948.

well done Republic of Ireland. Now if you could only act as tough in dealing with all the Provisional IRA/Sinn Fein arms and terrorists living in your own country with your full knowledge then we might actually take you seriously !

Jerry USA #164

You should know that the oil market is run by the US and works in dollars. That is good news for most of the rest of us.

One result of the present middle east situation is that Iran is now seriously capable of taking over. They have massive reserves, access to Central Asia reserves and now have new friends in Arab countries. China gets 25% of their production now, and it seems to me that this worries the guys in Texas. Don't know about rats turning on each other for the hell of it!

Bill (post 254) I think Israel might have been just a on edge in 1948 after having been nearly annhilated by Hitler and his henchmen.

a little on edge

I read these posts and am greatly saddened.The war of words here are exactly the same type of thing that has led to the crisis we are all discussing.It is good to be passionate in a cause,but not to the point of losing ones ability to give respect to all opinions,whether we agree or not.All of you were born and raised in different countries with different customs.This is not your fault.But in spite of your beliefs you become a small person if you cannot express yourself without vulgarities or ugliness.We must contain our anger to keep our only real hope of betterment alive....conversation.One thought to anti US folks.Dont worry about us. There is a huge movement building in this country to quit any involvement helping anyone anywhere in the world because it seems there is no satisfying world expectations.I pray true peace to all.

Already a "member" and disappointed by their foolishness, but they are politicians before anything else. I just understand that peace does not solve everything like war critics claim and war has solved many problems: ending slavery (which still exists in Muslim world), fascism, nazism and communism.

I will agree that Muslims are not 95% guility of supporting terrorism, but they are 90% guility of doing very little to stop them or are silently supporting them. The "cartoon" riots are a perfect example of their hypocritical nature, but very little is every heard about suicide bombers (unless some Muslim is killed) or randomly launching missiles treated as an outrage among Muslims.

They have dug their own grave and can lie in it! They should be all sent back home and return to their utopia, since they are very little interested in joining the nations were they have moved to and their death cult religion should be banned outside of their countries! Any culture that promotes abuse of women (honor killing, Female Genital Mutilation, stoning, and more) will never get me to accept them. The world has suffered enough of their misdirected anger, when their own leaders have caused most of their troubles while sitting on billions dollars from their oil reserves and not sharing to the people.

These people understand strength and to approach them with peace is admitting weakness, which gets you no respect! The British were once very effective in ruling the middle east and world, but have lost their spine mostly in the last 60-100 years. To run around throwing blame for events of the past is the last resort of the weak to enforce a fake peace. The enforced peace on Israel worked so well to the enemies of Israel until they pushed too hard!

#128 Debbie, Toronto

Interesting, that list of American companies who have decided to set up shop in Israel. Let's keep in mind though that those same companies have also set up shop in Ireland and Munich too, did you know that? In fact, Ireland, as well as Munich, are considered the technology centers of the world, outside of Silicon Valley, California.

The list of high-tech companies represented in Ireland is long - Motorola, Ericsson, Lucent, Nortel, Analog Devices, Xilinx, Microsoft, Tellabs, Sun, to name a few.

Also, Ireland is the largest exporter of software in the world, even ahead of the US. Admittedly, much of the exported software is from international technology companies based in Ireland. But there has still been huge growth in the domestic sector in recent years. The number of Irish technology companies has risen from an estimated 450 in 1994 to 1,200 in 2001. At a more granular level, the signs for the future are good. Ireland graduates 70% more science and engineering students per capita than any other country in the OECD and the Irish government has just committed €1bn to basic research in IT and life sciences.

I'm not even including the bio-medical side of industry that has taken up shop in Ireland. Ireland represents about 1% of the EU population but they have about 34% of all the technology companies based in their country. Not bad. Must be all those great schools they have. Producing all those scientists and engineers really pays off.

Smart country, smart people.

Debbie Toronto #165

Why should these villagers leave their homes because bad guys are hanging around?

How would you like to get vaporised because there's a police suspect in you neighbourhood?

Besides, they couldn't get out because of Israeli action and the UN aren't allowed in to help.

Meanwhile in Iraq.........................! Supporters of GW's invasion of Iraq are delighted that the Main Stream Media is riveted on the carnage in Lebanon
and totally ignoring the disaster in Iraq. "Freedom and Democracy in the Middle East" which he parrots at each Press Conference doesn't quite seem to be working - does it?

Exelcer Rome #259

Sure, they would be a little on edge, but they didn't have to treat the locals the way they did.

I would have thought that the Nazi experience would have put them off national socialism for keeps but it seems not.

I have rarely witnessed such an appalling lack of respect for others opinions and viewpoints as I've seen displayed in these postings. That coupled with a blantant disregard for facts and a distortion of the truth from those opposed to the survival of Isreal really makes me wonder how any of you can call yourselves educated.

The US is not "giving" bombs to Isreal specifically to use on Lebanon. Ratheon has a contract with Israel (approved by the US Department of Defense and State Dept, in accordance with international law I might add) to supply these weapons. Like most long terms munitions contracts it is designed so that the purchaser can draw upon the munitions as needed, they are not all delivered at once. Isreal has merely requested an adjustment of the delivery schedule based on need. These bombs are not being given away and are not being sent by the US govt. Like any nation in the world, Isreal has a right to purchase arms, and US companies have a right to sell them.

If you want to go on a tirade about the arms trade, you should look at yourselves. 99% of terrorists are armed with AK-47's (or variants), RPG-7's, RPK's, Katyushas, etc. all from Russia or the Soviet Union. France has continually supplied arms to Iraq during the 1990's when the UN had placed an embargo upon Saddams govt. When the US invaded Iraq they discovered large amounts of munitions, including brand new Roland SAM's still in the box that were only 4 months old. The favorite plastic explosive of terrorists the world over is not made in the US, but in the Czech Republic, as is the Scorpion machine pistol, a favorite of the IRA and other terrorist groups.

For all of you self-proclaimed experts on how the USA is to blame for everything bad in the world, you better take a good look in the mirror before you start pointing fingers. It was the decision of the British and French governments to divide up the ME after WWI that has caused all of our current pro

#254 Bill:

you might want to review history before commenting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

Don't forget the british limited migration of jews from Europe to escape the horrors of Hitler to Israel and did very little to protect them from attacks of the Muslims, so who should be surprised at them become targeted as a hinderance to the re-formation of their country?

Well, the UN security council is meeting now in emergency session, let's see who opposes an immediate ceasefire in the light of the Israeli massacre at Qana earlier today?

#263 Marika. Not trying to be insulting, but are you clueless or something? ALL of the recent increase in tech business in Ireland is from foreign investment. Ireland attracted all of this business due to the low wages and cheap standard of living. Tech companies saw an oppotunity to exploit poor people and that's all there is to it. Stop giving Ireland credit for inventing anything. The only contribution Ireland made was keeping most of it's population in poverty so greedy companies like Intel could move there and reap even bigger profits.

I think it's great that this will ultimately lead to Ireland having a better economy and a better standard of living, but they don't deserve credit creating any of this, any more than South Korea should be givin credit for inventing Nike running shoes. Like Ireland they were just another source of cheap labor.

John USA #265

No sir, Neville Chamberlain caused a lot of grief with his appeasement policy. When Winston came (American mother) he put things right again. It was pretty obvious at that time that war was the only answer, but our weak government was too busy building a 'land fit for heroes', and we didn't really have much military capacity .

I guess the point you are making is that you have to confront terrorism and defeat it - I could not agree more.

However, the way to do it is through negotiation - UN, whatever - without leaping into conflict and making more terrorists.

War is diplomacy by other means and should be a last resort.

Exelcer:259, "Bill (post 254) I think Israel might have been just a on edge in 1948 after having been nearly annhilated by Hitler and his henchmen". Just a note here, Israel did NOT exist before 1947 at the earliest, it was hel under British Mandate as Palestine, our government of the day was going to give half to the Jews and half to the Palestinians. a more detailed piece is earlier in these threads.

Bill, if you think you can negotiate with terroists and depend on the UN for anything, you are sadly mistaken.
The UN has been an abject failure in any thing that it has ever attempted.

Larry: 261. Don't take offence at the following as I do not patronise people.
You would seem to be a reasonable and not unpleasant lad and for that I say 'Thank you'. I think that in my postings I have attempted to remain polite ~ possibly a little curt ~ on the odd occassion but what do you do whenyou are faced with an 'unclimbable mountain'?

Eric #254

Yes, I know the history.

Israel was bound to have a struggle, invading somebody else's country. But they fought well, consolidated their hold, and there was an armistice in 1949.

Since then, it has been a history of annexation and suppression of the neighbours, which continues to this day.

I don't pretend for one minute that the British are blameless, but after all it was when the UN took over the mandate that Israel began.

Marika,

I read it. You are calling it "smart country, smart people", which may be true but not justified by your comments. Most corporations invest in offshoring because it's cheaper, not because they think the country is full of "smart people". Tech companies especially are quick to offshore because most tech manufacturing is relatively cheap and easy to move and set up (unlike heavy manufacturing for say the automobile, which is a significantly more expensive and time consuming undertaking).

These companies are taking advantage of cheap labor.

Quote from way back:

"Israel has the fourth largest air force in the world (after the U.S,
Russia and China). In addition to a large variety of other aircraft,
Israel's air force has an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16's. This is the largest fleet of F-16 aircraft outside of the U. S"

FOR A COUNTRY THE SIZE OF OXFORDSHIRE!!

Now, is that paranoia or what? You have to ask yourself what country on earth could possibly justfy dip[lomatic and security policies that put its own population at such a risk that it feels necessary to defend them with such overblown force. Something is very very wrong.

Carl, USA .. U could stop making urself and ur country more important than the arab countries & feel that vain superiority that doesn't actually exist since ur USA has no history whatsoever except killing some indians to take their lands & places.. Actually it doesn't really differ much from what the israeli gov is doing right now.. It's too bad that i'm known in my country as a defender of the US policy.. i'm ashamed of it now...

John USA #281

The UN is as strong as it's membership.

It might not cut the mustard but it's all we have, and all of us have to make it work if there is going to be a future worth having.

In any event, the UN would be just one route. There other countries acceptable to all parties who could broker a peace.

At the end of the day, when enough blood has been spilt, the adversaries are going to have to sit down and sort out what's left.

R. Duncan, Seattle WA USA #185

I like your succinct analysis; pretty close to the truth.

The United Nations

I'm curious as to why so many posters on here suddenly think the answer is to resolve this issue via the UN. Certainly the world should look for any reasonable means to limit or stop the death of civilians, but does anyone really think that the UN can be of any possible use?

One poster said it's time to "give the UN back it's teeth" or words to that effect. When has the UN ever had "teeth" that were not wearing an American uniform?

The UN has stood by or even helped perpetuate the slaughter of millions in it's short but useless history.

They can't even handle a purely humanitarian effort such as the Tsunami that hit Thailand and the rest of South East Asia. They showed up late, walked around "assessing the situation" and did little but take credit for the distribution of food and medical aid that was already underway before they even arrived on scene.

Then of course we have the "oil for palaces" project in which Saddam used the profits for everything but food and medicine. He built more palaces and bought more weapons, he hired Chinese technicians to build an even better Command and Control system (lot of good it did him in the end). Then the world has the gall to blame the US for the death of Iraqi children, all the while Kofi Annan and his son are getting rich off kickbacks from Saddam.

Then lets see... they did nothing to stop ethnic slaughter in Rwanda, have done nothing whatsoever to curb the rising tide of bloodthirsty dictators in Africa overall.

Then of course there were over a dozen UN resolutions telling Saddam to stop being bad, which he politely ignored while he gleefully slaughtered the Kurds (another group ignored by the UN).

The point is, why does anyone think that now, all of a sudden, the UN is going to be able to acheive anything?

I would love for them to finally get it right, but I have no faith in them at all.

#284 Greg, USA

Again, re-read what I wrote. Ireland is a TECHNOLOGY country. They are a country of Industrialized TECHNOLOGY. They are NOT a heavy industry country. Their labor may be of lower cost, but their standard of living is quite well for themselves. Also, computer programmers and auto workers are two different breeds. You are comparing apples with oranges.

If you are a technology company looking for workers, you cannot just set up shop anywhere. You have to set up shop where people are EDUCATED in Science, engineering and Technology. You need to find people with advanced degrees in the sciences and techologies and engineering. The USA has fallen way behind other countries in producing scientists, technologists and engineers.

Besides, your entire argument about cheap labor goes out the window when you look at the technology model of Munich, Germany. The Germans are some of the highest salaried people in the world and yet Munich is also another Silicon Valley. It's the education that makes the difference. It always has, it always will.

larry 261: "sadness" - exactly what I felt when reading the rude, insulting or aggressive posts, none of which engender real dialogue, real progress. It's just more of the same tired crap. True peace to you too, brother.

For the thoughtful posts, thanks all.

Last I checked, British arms manufacturer BAE had 9 locations in Scotland and 2 of them were in Prestwick.

--
On the night of October 13th 1939, a German U-Boat managed to pass between the Orkney Mainland and Lamb Holm into Scapa Flow, between two northerly blockships. Just after midnight HMS Royal Oak was sighted by it in Scapa Bay. Torpedoes were fired, and a hole 30 feet in diameter was made in the hull, and she capsized. Of the crew of 1400 men, 833 lost their lives. Three days after the submarine attack, four German bombers raided Scapa Flow in one of the first bombing attacks on Britain in the war

During World War II Scotland suffered some 34,000 combat deaths, and approximately 6,000 civilians were killed, many in air attacks on Clydeside.

Lend-Lease was a major United States program 1940-1945 which enabled the United States to provide Britain with vast amounts of war material. Unlike the loans of World War I, the transfers were gifts that were not to be repaid. It began in March 1941, nine months before the US officially entered the war in December of 1941. Lend-Lease came on the heels of Cash and Carry, following correspondence between Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt on the economic status of Britain and their inability to pay for and transport materials as they once did.
--

After all of that, I don't want to hear any more out of you ungrateful hypocrites! If you hate Bush and Blair so much, maybe we should have let Hitler annex Britain so the SS could teach YOUR kids how to "Sieg Heil".

You all make me sick with your protests. You want us to stop sending bombs to Israel? Why? So Israel can't defend herself without resorting to her nuclear weapons? Idiots, if you get your wish, Armageddon will start as soon as Israel runs out of conventional bombs. Get a clue will ya! The Arabs are betting that Israel doesn't have the guts to hit them with a nuke. They don't know that Israel had their

Greatangelina Lebanon #195

Don't think you don't have support out here - you do.

There are a lot of us sending aid to Lebanon to help the innocent victims just come through it.

I am proud to say that I made a donation to mercycorps in Edinburgh Scotland. Supplies of tarpaulins, blankets and medical supplies are now unloaded in Beirut and are being used in the refugee camps.

I urge anyone who cares for their fellow human beings to do what you can for this charity or the few others who are helping the Lebanese at this terrible time.

greatangelina I wasn't trying to build up my country, my country accomplishments are self evident. I was responding to Debbies post (128) where she listed Israel's achievements and I was simply asking "The Sheik" to list the arabs so we could compare the two. However he is a little slow with presenting us with that list.

Sid282,I take no offense at your comments.I find you to be one of the more reasoned and restrained on these postings.We all will experience unclimable mountains in pur dealings with others.I personally try to go get a breath of fresh air and a cold refresher and then try to restate my feelings in a different manner,but then again we will never be fully able to let others see our viewpoint.Isuppose then that we must take our hearts desire for a better world and keep on trying.We all lose when everyone quits trying.True peace to you all.

Sorry, can't agree with Greg.

So just because a country is legally obliged to sell arms it's OK? Of course it isn't. The US government should step in and embargo the contract. Actually make a moral and ethical stand against violence. They're quick to jump when they get attacked and waffle on about denying freedoms that other cultures take for granted so how about actually doing something concrete and damn me, earth shattering.

As for these problems starting out from the carving up of the middle east after the first world war, go and read your Bible, Greg. I think it's a little more deep seated.

This is the whole point. We've got to get away from this pathetic blame culture. We've got rivalries in the middle east going back centuries. I'm not going to go and smack a Dane around just because I'm English and were invaded by Vikings 1200 years ago - but this is what's happenening in the ME and the rest of the world can't get their stupid heads around it, let alone the Yanks, who just go in heavy handedly making matters worse because they've got a bigger penis than Abdul.

Bill #252 you know i like to court controversy :oP

but this has all become a bit more personal now with Prestwick Airport in Ayrshire and Prestwick being my home town in the firing line .... i am quite angry westminster has sanctioned Scotland to be the p!ss and petrol stop for the US armed forces ... i like a good fight now and again .... pity i do not have a shoulder launched anti aircraft missile their cargo aircraft would present a easy target :o)

To Susan in Canada.................

I'd like to build the world a home
And furnish it with love
Grow apple trees and honey bees
And snow white turtle doves

I'd like to teach the world to sing
In perfect harmony
I'd like to hold it in my arms
And keep it company

I'd like to see the world for once
All standing hand in hand
And hear them echo through the hills
For peace throughout the land

That's the song I hear
I'd like to teach the world to sing
In perfect harmony
I'd like to teach the world to sing
In perfect harmony--------------------------------------------------------We French know how to build a lasting peace.

Zohar Kfar Gil' adi #217

Thank you for your post.

I am sorry for you and your family caught up in all this mess. Of course you have a right to defend yourselves as does everyone, but that does not mean indiscriminate slaughter.

You have lived there since 1921 and there have been a lot of changes since then. It is my hope that the big Powers get their act together and broker a lasting peace.

Lucifer Ayrshire #298

They wouldn't use Heathrow now would they?

It's funny that the British Isles and it's liberal citizens complain about muntions being shipped to a friendly Country that is under attack by Islam, just as you were by the Nazi's. Your country would be speaking German, if it wasn't for our Nation coming to your defense. Now you want to turn your spineless rearends to another free Nation under attack by Facist, how cowardly.

And Bill 301. I echo your comments to Zohar Kfar Gil and also wish him and his family well.

"John USA #281

The UN is as strong as it's membership.

It might not cut the mustard but it's all we have, and all of us have to make it work if there is going to be a future worth having.

In any event, the UN would be just one route. There other countries acceptable to all parties who could broker a peace.

At the end of the day, when enough blood has been spilt, the adversaries are going to have to sit down and sort out what's left."

well said Bill/England was it not Japan, Italy and Germany that undermined and flaunted the league of nations (the forerunner of the UN)and eventually pulled out after TLN tried to interfere and stop their goals of world domination ..... 70 years later America/Isreal/UK has not learned from the past mistakes ... they are now doing to the UN what the facists did to The League of Nations = flaunt the rules and try to undermine it

Greg:268, Your last paragraph. "For all of you self-proclaimed experts on how the USA is to blame for everything bad in the world, you better take a good look in the mirror before you start pointing fingers." If you are going to jump in without reading prior posts fine! this session did NOT start blaming the US for everything bad in the world - some of your fellow countrymen, and the odd Canadian cannot, or choose not, to read what is written.

"It was the decision of the British and French governments to divide up the ME after WWI that has caused all of our current problems. They arbitrarily established borders that suited their own economic insterests with complete disregard for ethnic and religious differences in the region."
At the end of WWI there 3 main 'Victors', We- the British, The French and the Americans and as far as I am aware, any 'dividing up' was a joint measure.
"For that matter it was British and French imperialism at the end of WWII that directly led to the Vietnam war". Viet-Nam before WWII was French Indo-China, in case your history books haven't quite got it right, Germany invaded France and Japan invaded French Indo-China, they also invaded Dutch Territory and at the end of WWII The British AND Empire troops that were out there had to disarm Japanese troops and use them as 'policemen' until we could 'stabilise' the system, unfortunately the Communist Chinese had other Ideas and started infiltrations into Viet-Nam which the re-formed French Army took on and got severly thrashed at the Viet-Cong's hands, this was when the U.S.A. stepped in! and what happened? you also, eventually got thrashed by the Viet-Cong!
"Another mess created by European powers and left for other countries to try and clean up. Just like Somalia for that matter." This last one I cannot and will not contest - but! if you want to start bashing my Country - you make sure you get your facts 100% spot on. Their

"Now you want to turn your spineless rearends to another free Nation under attack by Facist, how"

when did America start attacking Isreal .?? ... you yanks are the new nazis .... your troops even wear German style helmets from WW2

"They wouldn't use Heathrow now would they?"

i wouldn't wish it on heathrow either .... i just find it disgusting Blair and previous UK goverments use Scotland for all their dirty dealing

To all of those who are so upset that we the(USA) are in need of a piece of earth to assist the small nation of Jews who at present time are in great peril, well tough! Get a clue. This fire wasnt started by the USA or Israel. It has to due with a virulent hatred of one people against the other. It's astonishing that no matter what ignorant remarks or violent acts the Israeli people have to endure, it somehow seems to get turned around to be their fault or the USA's. Look, the Israeli people need we (White Folk) to help them survive. So to all the weaker among our people's, just recognize this need, turn your weak face's away and let men who are called out among us to get a dirty work done. After all the Israeli's do have a right to exist. And to all you USA basher's, remember this: There hasn't been a one of you who have not been blessed by the simple existance of the USA. NOT ONE! We have helped more people on this earth than any nation throughout history. I'm sorry it's a tough period of time we are all going through but sometimes you have to put away fear and stand for what is right no matter what. As you folks say "CHEERS".

Greg, without being insulting can you read ENGLISH?
This is Marika's post that you picked. "Interesting, that list of American companies who have decided to set up shop in Israel. Let's keep in mind though that those same companies have also set up shop in Ireland and Munich too, did you know that? In fact, Ireland, as well as Munich, are considered the technology centers of the world, outside of Silicon Valley, California.
The list of high-tech companies represented in Ireland is long - Motorola, Ericsson, Lucent, Nortel, Analog Devices, Xilinx, Microsoft, Tellabs, Sun, to name a few.
Also, Ireland is the largest exporter of software in the world, even ahead of the US. Admittedly, much of the exported software is from international technology companies based in Ireland. But there has still been huge growth in the domestic sector in recent years. The number of Irish technology companies has risen from an estimated 450 in 1994 to 1,200 in 2001. At a more granular level, the signs for the future are good. Ireland graduates 70% more science and engineering students per capita than any other country in the OECD and the Irish government has just committed €1bn to basic research in IT and life sciences.
I'm not even including the bio-medical side of industry that has taken up shop in Ireland. Ireland represents about 1% of the EU population but they have about 34% of all the technology companies based in their country. Not bad. Must be all those great schools they have. Producing all those scientists and engineers really pays off".

And THIS is YOUR reply:-

"#263 Marika. Not trying to be insulting, but are you clueless or something? ALL of the recent increase in tech business in Ireland is from foreign investment. Ireland attracted all of this business due to the low wages and cheap standard of living. Tech companies saw an oppotunity to exploit poor people and that's all there is to it. Stop giving Ireland credit for

I totally agree with your post at 308 Sid but I feel that much of what you have written will have gone over most Americans heads. I am normally a non-swearing peace loving person who gets on well with people from all nations. But these jewish and yankee supremacists with their I'm bigger and better than you attitude who have posted on this forum today are enough to make Allah swear.

www.michaelsavage.com

Sid,

I was not meaning to bash the UK, or any country for that matter, I was trying to make a point that very bad decisions on the part of politicans can be attributed to virtually every nation on earth.

Maybe I'm reading too much into previous posts, but it seems to me that the majority of posters here are blaming the US, calling us all untravelled, uneducated cowboys, etc.

I take offense at that characterization because it's grossly one sided. There are millions of Americans that live and work in foreign countries, just as there are millions of Brits, Germans, Pakistanis' etc that do the same.

I'm sure you can go to Sheffield and fine thousands that have never left the UK other than to take a Ryan air flight to Prague to get drunk for the weekend on the cheap, or perhaps to go to a world cup match, but otherwise they are largely untraveled and no better educated than the average blue collar American. Spending a week in another country, especially a holiday destination like Ibeza, doesn't really give someone a grand understanding of the world as a whole, so I think a lot of people mistakenly label themselves as "well-travelled" when in fact they haven't even scratched the surface of a foreign culture.

Also please remember that due to it's vast size, broad cultral makeup and geographical diversity, many Americans choose not to live or holiday far from home because it's very expensive compared to domestic travel, and there is a lot to see and do here in the US. Don't take that as a prejudice against other countries. Many Americans dream of going on an exotic holiday once in their lives, but many simply can't afford it.

There are no shortage of underedcuated people in the US that have difficulty thinking for themselves, no mistake about that. But I see the same thing in nearly every country I've lived and worked in (which would be Japan, Australia, Germany and the Czech Republic if you're interested).