"...human rights legislation that allowed people to express religious views freely was being used to perpetrate attacks on gay people." I'm lesbian, and I'm Christian. It saddens me that so-called fellow Christians believe it is their God-given right to abuse people like me. Christian denotes a follower of Christ, the teachings of Jesus Christ tell us that no matter who we are, we should be loved and accepted. This isn't to be qualified by personal prejudices, it is absolute and unconditional. Once you start picking and choosing parts of scripture, or misrepresent the ministry of Jesus, you are on the slippery slope to bigoted biblicalism and NOT Christian love. Over and over throughout the world, it is a simple fact that the views and actions expressed by the churched, both clergy and lay, give rise to the belief that we are somehow less than human and undeserving of the most basic of human rights. I have linked religious dogma to homophobic crime before, it is about time that our respective governments started to take this issue seriously, as the statistics from Scotland prove.

It's not a coincidence at all and I don't think it's being being 'rammed' over everbody else's right. If 'minority groups' didn't have any kind of problem within society and blended in peacefully then I suppose the term 'minority group' wouldn't have come about. If there's something that needs to be dealt with in society then it's important to highlight it. And that's the end of it.

I am not gay or homophobic but it appears to me that people who commit these crimes against other human beings must have doubts about their own sexuality, religion or race.

Jenny,
Perhaps you should read the bible again,I don't think God is all that keen on homosexuals.

It was the case once that there was a lot of discrimination against a minority of people because of the colour, of their skin, their sexuality or their religious believes
This discrimination was unacceptable and had to be changed which the majority agreed with.
Unfortunately instead of making the balance equal for all it has tipped the other way.
The majority now feel that they are being forced to accept discrimination against them lawfully.
If a gay bar/club want to advertise for gay staff they can.
If certain schools wish to advertise for staff of a certain religious persuasion they can.
If a employer wishes to advertise for non white staff they can.
If an employer wishes to advertise for white heterosexual or non religious staff they can't.

Colin, It's that kind of remark which LGBT people object to. I have an Honours degree in Divinity and have read the Bible extensively. All the so-called references to homosexuality found in the Bible are actually about Jewish purity laws which are a different matter altogether.
It is totally unacceptable to abuse anyone whether they are male or female, gay or straight, black or white, rich or poor. Justifying abuse by selecting passages from the Bible is unchristian and unacceptable. The passage in Leviticus where it says a man shall not lie with a man, also says that we shouldn't wear clothes made of mixed fibres and it's ok to execute our neighbours for working on the Sabbath!!!!

God may not be keen on homosexuals, Colin, it's true.

He appears to like incest though, since he only created Adam and Eve and let them get on with it, so at some stage.........well, you work it out. Makes you wonder what Cain and Abel did for sexual gratification, eh? And while God may have called incest wicked in Deuteronomy and Leviticus, Abraham was able to marry his father's daughter and remain God's favourite. Double standard? Yeah, well.............

This God character was also keen on slavery, and nowhere labelled it a sin - in fact, the bible is full of instructions as to how it should be regulated and how slaves and masters should behave towards each other. And of course God was clearly partial to an awful lot of smiting, often killing entire tribes, women, children, unborn babies etc - although he also apparently said thou shalt not kill, adding the rider that it was OK to do so if you caught someone picking up sticks on a Sunday, or if the had an obstinate son.

I think our Christian bretheren could lighten up a little, don't you?

Jenny.
I do not know what Christ you believe in but it certainly is not the one in the bible.
God says it is a sin for man to lay with man and woman with woman and man with beast and Jesus agrees.
Where does Jesus tell us that no matter who we are we should be loved and accepted.
May I suggest you actually read the bible and find out what Jesus preachings really are and not just quote what you think they are.

Live and let live ............. there are too many bigots in this world who think they have the right to dictate how others live their lives. Religious doctrines from thousands of years ago are used to prop up ingrained predjudices against homosexuals. If you're going to follow the Bible to the letter then why don't Christians have their baby boys circumcised, stop eating pork etc etc. It is astonishing how people cherry pick the Bible to suit themselves. Most of the so called laws applied to a different culture living thousands of years ago in a much hotter climate than this!! (although it is pretty hot, here, at the moment)

If you're going to quote then why not "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" I can't find anything in the New Testament that says "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself but only if they are hetreosexual, look like you, talk like you, worship like you...........etc, etc.

Take a look at the situation in the Middle East to see where intolerance of others leads.

Yes, more legislation is needed. After all, I'm sure the perpetrators of these attacks will think again knowing they're commiting a 'hate crime' rather than just a common assault.

And of course, attacks against gay people obviously deserve greater punishment than ones against straight people.

Homophobic attacks manufactured by the police? Is this not a conspiracy theory?
Of course, if police were willing to close their eyes and not see homophobic crime/offence, it would make it seem it does not exist.

Keeping law and order is a service that should benefit everyone, including lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people.
Why do some part of the public suddenly get envious when the protection LGBT human rights is in question? Why do they prioritise LGBT people to be envious of?

i have to agree with AJ here, live and let live....... so why is it then that when fire fighters decided against attending a gay pride march the were repremanded.... we live in a democracy don't we??? freedom of choice??? Maybe if the police stopped trying to police our thoughts and beliefs and started catching the people causing these problems this would go away. it is also worth noting that i never new anyone who was gay until i moved to edinburgh..... every barrell has bad apples..... i know gay guys who have battered straight guys but the straight guys won't go to the police as they are embarrased....... so what is going to be done about that? also what constitutes being homophobic. i went to a gay bar with my girlfriend and her gay mate, only to have my backside grabbed untold amount of times, do i take this as a joke and laugh it off as they will say..... i am gay what do you expect..... people will say well you were in a gay bar what do you expect.... i expect to go out and have a drink where ever i am without being molested in this way. if i done this to a woman in a night club and she didn't like it would that make her straightophobic??? not all gay guys are feminine, some are as tough as they come!! i think the gay community should stop moaning and just get on with it as they can be as bad as straight people.

Colin in Austrailia, Well said mate no doubt this will be an arguement with the Jennys all over the world,Think again Jennys.

Ken, please mention some cases where someone was attacked because they were/were thought to be heterosexual and that motivated crime, what's more, being straight mae it more difficult for the victim to report on the incident, as they had fears that might cause further hardship?

Some folk seem to have a lot of difficulty accepting that gay people should have rights in society like anyone else - like the right not to be subject to violence. Even if minority rights are being 'rammed down' everyone's throat (which I don't accept they are) why should that give anyone the right to beat up anyone from that minority?

As for the firefighters being disciplined for refusing to publicise their services and ways of preventing fires to the gay community, it's quite right that they should be disciplined. They are there to provide a service to the whole community and they should be working with the whole community. They turn out for events like the Angus Show without protest. Is that because they think it's more important to save the lives of farmers than people who are gay?

Bence

I was called "a breeder" not so long ago by a gay man and he refered to all hetrosexual people as "breeders".

It was said in what could be described as a derogatory fashion i.e. with distaste and distain. Should I report this fellow for being an "ist" of some sort? Especially in light of the fact he would, no doubt, not hesitate to contact the police if I was even the tiniest bit "ist" like toward him?

And Christopher @14, couldn't agree more about predatory gay men. I too have been "hit on" by predatory gay men, some of them quite large and scarey in my opinion and the worst bit being I was with my wife on most occassions. Incidentally, the feelings go toward these sexually liberated "older" women who think nothing of feeling my ar*e and on one memorable occassion, my b*lls, in front of my wife.

If I were to do the same one of 2 things would happen. A physical assulat on my being or the police involved, or both and all because I am a white, middle(ish) class male.

As for the religious thing, leave it out of it at the moment. Have you seen the attitude that Moslims have toward gays? Not good...............

The trouble with some police and official statistics is that they record a victim of a crime in a particular grouping if the victim perceives it to be the case, whether it was or not. For example, if a male walking down the street is punched and his mobile taken from him, the perpretrator may not even know that he is homosexual but committed the crime to get the mobile phone. But if the victim says (long after the assailant has gone) that the crime happened because he was homosexual, then it is recorded as such, whether that is the case or not. In the past, no such classification was made, hence the apparent meteoric rise in homophobic attacks. Similarly, how are domestic assaults between gay couples recorded? Homophobic? I think not. Damned lies and statistics!

Well, what a fuss this has caused. reactions from polarised groups of people, with different beliefs. Surely the point is that no one person has the right to abuse anyone else? I agree (as a gay man) that many MEN are predatory, that some WOMEN are predatory and this is unacceptable and threatening. Threatening 'them' back through violence is morally wrong according to many 'bibles, doctrines and such guides'. Ultimately the majority wants a peaceful world, but takes action against power abuses and really the old ist arguments are quite unhelpful as it focuses everyone in on differences, when it would be helpful to look at simiarities as communities of human beings.

X

Jenny (2)- I agree with you wholeheartedly. The church I go to here is an affirming church- we do gay marriage ceremonies and so on, and have a wonderful caring community. I am a heterosexual single mom who doesn't want to bring her child up in a bigoted world and I finally feel I've found a good place.
Christianity is based predominantly on what Christ said, not on the old-testament after-the-fact 'we killed more people so God must have been on our side' mentality.
Colin (6)- The Bible is full of discrepancies, mostly regarding the nature of God (angry God/Loving God, God is Love/God directs us to burn witches and kill our enemies' infants...) Christ said, himself, that he had come to bring a *new* message. The only new testament reference to homosexuality that I am aware of (and my father's a minister so I was steeped in the Bible) is a letter from a human to other humans, written long after Christ was gone. Much like the origins of the Catholic ban on contraceptives (the fear that there would soon be more Protestants than Catholics- look it up; it's true) this was, in the face of Christ's teachings, a contradictory and politically motivated letter written by a man, and nothing more.
Essentially, the crux of the matter is this: if we are to believe that God is perfect, then we must accept that He/She makes no mistakes. Correct? Then, taking into account the scientifically established fact that many people are born gay, not to mention the number of intersexed babies born (1 in 2000), and the fact that homosexuality has been observed in nature in countless species, we must logically deduce that God has nothing against homosexuality, and that as Christ said, we should love one another as God loves us- *unconditionally*.

Shona (22), even as a non religius person I am struck by the powerful and respectful message you sent. Thank you.

Shona

Good points, well made and put forward. However, you made a small error. You mentioned scientifically proven stats alongside a religious doctrine.

Unfortunately, science and religion don't make good bedfellows (pardon the pun Poopsie - Intelligent Design anybody?) and it has unravelled your argument a little.

If you are a God loving/fearing, coloured, disabled, non ethnic, single parent homosexual and you are attacked but the attacker fails to metion why you were attacked, what crime do you report? Religious assault? Sexual discrimination assault? Racism assault? Disabledist assault? Parent-ist assault? Or which ever one would get the most moeny from the criminal injuries court?

For the benefit of Jenny I would refer to Leviticus 18:22:
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Those words may have been written thousands of years ago but they sum up pretty well how the overwhelming majority feel on the subject.

"Those words may have been written thousands of years ago but they sum up pretty well how the overwhelming majority feel on the subject"

The overwhelming majority of people in this country do not attend church and therefore do not have their lives controlled by dogmatic doctrine issued to the Hebrews thousands of years ago.

espousing fairy stories dressed up a "religion" to justify narrow bigoted views is just the ticket i expect from those who need a crutch to survive their own life.....

For those quoting religion as the reason to be against homosexuality...it is such vocal bigotry that alienates many people from religion. These attitudes go against most teachings. Your words spread hatred throughout the church, the community and the world and encourage less broad minded people justify violence. I hope that you find peace somwhere my friend. Sharing an opinion is fine, but backing it up in such a manner is almost cowardly! lovingly sent...Poopsie

Why do we have all this nonsense about coming out?
I'm not the least interested in whether a person is gay or not, and judge them on their complete being.
If the gays just kept quiet about their orientation, the would have far less hassle. Why are they proud of the fact that their favourite sexual occupation is buggary? One of my best friends is gay, but he realises that he must not come onto me due to my preference of sex with women. Currently gays seem to feel that it is something to be proud of and want to advertise their sexual orientation to all and sundry.
The people who I feel really sorry for are those who live with , and love a person, of the same sex without any of the sexual conotations that are now rife, but have to put up with others assuming that they have a sexual agenda in their domestic arrangements.
Gays, please shut up and lead your life as you want, but discretely.

Well said Helen.

Christopher, LGBT people need to be able to come out so that their sexuality isn't an issue and so that people know not to presume heterosexuality. There is nothing worse than constantly being asked when I'm going to meet a 'nice young man' when I know I won't because I'm gay. Most LGBT people just want to live a peaceful life, and have a variety of friends of all persuasions. My closest 2 friends are heterosexual women. We are friends...nothing more, and no-one would suggest anything different. They are fine with me, and I'm fine with them and get on ok with their husbands, kids, grandchildren etc. We aren't monsters we just want to be treated equally.

I'm a christian and although i do respect everyone, the bible does clearly say in the hebrew scriptures and in the greek ones that homosexuality is "pornea" the greek work for fornication( sexual activity outside marriage) that a christian must avoid.(1 Corinthians 6:18-20 & 1 Corinthians 7:1-2) whether it be with a man, woman or beast.

The bible also condemns violence psalms 11:5. so no-one should be beaten for their personal decision. In the end God will judge.

The reasons that gay people want to come out are many. But mostly they want to let other people know that they feel good about who they are. Surely, self-esteem is a good thing. That's why straight couples get engaged and then married - it's a type of celebration.

They also want to let the world know that they have not been defeated by all the verbal and physical abuse that they may have endured over the years. There is still a lot of homophobic bullying in schools and workplaces and people feel rightly proud that they have not been crushed by that.

I have never heard of a single gay man coming out so that he can come on to a straight men. Dream on, Christopher.

Helen

Fair comment about wanting to be treated equally. We all do. Best thing to do is to act equally then.

N'est pas?

That's fine Christopher (29), so long as you don't 'advertise' your heterosexual status by mentioning your preference for women (oops, too late), or especially ever coming onto them, because they might be gay you know, and you wouldn't want them to have to tolerate your unwanted sexual advances.

Dave (22)

You talk about serious things. You have the right to defend yourself, not by violence, though.

No one needs martyrs. If you refuse offensive or threatening behaviour, that is NOT a crime. You still would not be able to righfully punch the person, but who does it hurt if violence is not regarded a proper response?

If you decide that the case is serious enough to report to the police, they surely will not hesitate to be of your assistance.

Police awareness of homophobic hate crime does not aim to give exemption to any group of people form punishment when it is due.

If you were to do the things you described to someone else, you would not be punished because you are a white middle class(ish) male, but because of what you have done.

Just one more thing: gaining moral high ground by boasting with not reporting offence is not possible.

PS. I have never mentioned religion in my comments.

"Gays, please shut up and lead your life as you want, but discretely."

Christopher (29), we do want to lead our lives as we want after years of oppression due to fear and bigotry. But why should we do it "discretely"? Why should my girlfriend (of 10 yrs) and myself not walk along the street hand in hand like many a heterosexual couple without having to fear abuse, and possible assault? We don't snog in the street (a practice that is generally distasteful any way whoever it is - get a room!) but we do want to openly showly we are a couple. It would not be natural to us to hide our individuality and partnership.

I agree with you that people should be judged on an individual basis and that the saying "each to their own" should be used more nowadays. But it doesn't help when leaders like O'Brien come out (pardon the pun) with such bigoted nonsense. He is the reason I, regretfully, left the Catholic church - would you want to belong to a club that didn't want you?

Religious belief is again up to the individual and should be respected - but there is NO excuse whatsoever for any human to abuse another human.

Bence

I was at 23 mate! Anyways, I metioned religious whatnot for other people, not you.

Stereotyping is the problem I think. We all have the sereotype of gay and straight males and females in our head. I for one would be very reluctant to report to our over stretched police force that a big scarey male or over sexed female felt my ar*e or b*lls on a night out as I'm supposed to be a big fearless manly man. In the big picture, it's a very minor infringement but I guess if it's allowed to carry on, the ar*e feeling could turn a lot worse.

Thanks Bence for that. I think from now on, I will report all gay male and over sexed female ar*e and b*ll feeling episodes from now on without fear of being laughed at.

Gordon #38

I live near a church where I see straight couples and their families celebrating their heterosexuality at wedding ceremonies every day. It probably is 'attention seeking' but it doesn't bother me. Why should gay 'attention seeking' bother you?

Gordon (38)

No, 'coming out' is just not hiding anymore.

I think the problem is that people like Christopher and Gordon don't realise how much or how often straight people publicly show their sexual preference, just like most people who have grown up in a Christian-dominated country don't see how many Christian symbols are present in their society.

These people are shocked when they visit an Islamic country, they can't believe all the religious what-not everywhere (when really, the symbols only stand out because they are not as familiar as the symbols they are used to), and they are shocked when they see a same sex couple holding hands as they kiss their wives goodbye at the train station in the morning...get it now?

Just using the religious analogy because it seems to keep coming up!

To Gordon in Stirling. I do come and know what it's like. If your reference to "react" means
"assault" then...well, no more comments.

Any bigot religious or otherwise who trys to justify homophobic violence as somehow approved by God, should listen to the words of the mother of Jody Dowbrowski the young barman beaten and kicked to death in Clapham, London for being gay.

"In a statement outside court, Mrs Dobrowski said: "In a free and democratic society, Jody's murder was an outrage. It was a political act. It was an act of terrorism. Jody was not the first man to be killed, or terrorised, or beaten or humiliated for being homosexual - or for being perceived to be homosexual. Tragically, he will not be the last man to suffer the consequences of homophobia, which is endemic in this society. This is unacceptable. We cannot accept this. No intelligent, healthy or reasonable society could."

She thanked witnesses - whose anonymity has been protected for life by the court - for their courage in speaking out in the case. She also paid tribute to her son for "his strength in the face of cowardice. For struggling to become who he was - an intelligent, funny, hardworking and beautiful man, whose life was brutally and mercilessly punched and kicked from him. Who fought for some hours to stay with us. And whose big dancing feet left behind such gentle footprints on this earth."

source:
Guardian Newspaper

Anyone who tells me that their God agrees with this kind of behaviour has a twisted and warped view of faith and I for one want nothing to do with their God.

First of all, I do not in any condone any type of violence against anyone whatsoever. However, when you use some that goes against the natual flow of life in order to secure human rights at the tax payers expnce then crap like this is going to happen. We already have basic human rights or, so we are told, Throughout the constitutions of our Nation States. They wee given to us by God and our brave men and women fought and bled and died to preserve them. What I am concerned qbout is that the entire gay rights business is solely based upon the gay lifestyle and not the individual persons humanity. For example I am a person who happens to be registered blind. and as such I have ceretain rights within my country or province that insure me acccess to meaningful employment education and access to a decent standard of living and healthcare. These rights are not mine based on me being blind, they are based upon my status as a human being only.

Older women and burly gay men feeling your ar*e and b*lls...I'm glad it rained the whole weekend I spent in Lewis and didn't go out much. he!

Michael @ 44

1. Homosexuals pay taxes, also.

2. Homosexuals have served in both World Wars, sexual orientation was never an issue when invasion of this country was at stake.

3. Homosexuals are serving in today's armed forces.

Al

That was in Edinburgh mate! You have nothing to fear in Lewis but midgies! Hope you enjoyed your time there, please come again and enjoy our hospitality.

First World War - being found out as gay was punishable by death.

Second Wrold War - being found out as gay was punishable by dishonourable discharge.

Must be a pain in the ar*e bieng gay nowadays! A whole new sexual revolution that women have/are already gone through...........

Gordon #47 - it's ridiculous to assume that every gay person's ego works the same way and thrives on the same things. It's like saying they all like chocolate ice cream. This is typical of discrimination...it stems from a simple lack of understanding about the subject matter. If you could make an effort to open your mind, you might find explanations that have nothing to do with the negative spin you put on things. If you look hard enough for a reason to take offense, you will always find it.

To Gordon. It wasn't that long ago that I visited. And yes, now that you say it I did notice a big change in the air. Everyone was talking about changing their usual vote for either the Tories or the ... the Senior Citizens' Unity Party.
Actually I notice that the vast majority of people there are not remotely interested in politics.

To Dave. I will again come again to the Western Isles with Spanish friends. I'll show them beautiful empty beaches and real weather!

"First World War - being found out as gay was punishable by death.

Second Wrold War - being found out as gay was punishable by dishonourable discharge"

I wonder of the many millions who served how many were gay, a fair few I should think. Of the 2000 who died on the first day of the battle of the Somme , I bet a few of them were as well. What a load of rubbish, next thing it will be suggested that the deserters shot during WW1 were all gay and that's why they were shot!!

BTW: Just because you dislike homophobia does not make you a gay person. I dislike bigots of every type.

God created mankind in his own image... if u read the New Testament Christ doesnt mention homosexuality he just says the greatest commandment is to love your neighbour as yourself id suggest a few folk here might go and try it!

i wouldn't class myself as being homophobic at all, i think that sexual preference is no great issue, it is how this is portrayed by individuals........ gay - straight, black or white. does this mean that a gay guy cannot be a rapist or a white guy a suicide bomber? a black guy be a doctor or a straight guy be a sailor? i mean come on guys open your eyes here. the human race is no longer gender specific.... we have been striving for equality for years, the abuse of this equality is what is more prominent here. The gay community is more close nit than the straight community, how would gay people take it if all us straight folk started taking over where you drink? would you go and drink somewhere else or tell us to get out??? this is where things start to get hypicritical. you would think you were in the right for doing this as it is 'your' place yet we do not have the right to exorcise that right by saying this is a straight pub get out??!! we would be homophobes...... so in this instance you have a phobia to straight people...... whatever that might be called and if all you gay people out there are honest, with yourselves and us, you will not deny that fact. i have made plenty of gay friends in my time but also gay enemies, as well as the straight equivelant. in every instance it is not the sexuality, simply who the people are. i know of a gay guy who robs businesses.... i know straight men who don't. i know gay guys who don't drink.......... i know straight men that will drink themselves into oblivion at any given opportunity. i know gay guys who are rubbish at their jobs yet i know gay men who are millionaires..... so you see it is not our orentation that divides us. it is the people we are regardless of race, sexuality or creed. stereotyping people, or pigeon holing them is not on. i am straight but nothing like the other straight guy sitting over the way from me as he is nothing like the gay woman sitting over from him or the black gay guy

Walter, I'm no expert on the Bible, but I believe you're incorrect to suggest Jesus condemned homosexuality directly. That said, he did restate often his support for Jewish law, which would have incorporated such a view. But as far as I'm aware he never placed stress on this. And we have the account of his position with the accused adulteress. "Let the one among you who is without sin cast the first stone". Jesus of course knew that none present were without sin except himself. So what he was perhaps also saying was that it's all good and well to make harsh judgements according to Jewish law, but the person making such a judgement must be extremely rightous themselves - and people who are so, are much less likely to 'cast the first stone', as Jesus made clear he himself was not prepared to do. Otherwise we have condemnations such as those we find in Leviticus. But that must be placed in the context of a semi-nomadic people having to survive in tough conditions. Summary justice was the order of the day. But Jesus himself indicates more than once, that it's important to evolve from this - think for example what he had to say about the Sabbath, and faith being greater than law. Then of course we have the other condemnations in the Old Testament, such as not wearing clothes of more than one material which appears with others beside the condeming of homosexuality. Strange how the others are conveniently forgotten by nearly all of those condeming homosexuality on biblical grounds! Otherwise we have the contrabutions of Paul. He repeatedly tells us however, that some of what he is stating is from the Holy Spirit, and others are his own opinions. Again, strange how often this is conveniently forgotten.

Christopher,

You have a point, of course there are good and bad people in every walk of life. The other point here, however, is that people should not be discriminated against on grounds of sexual orientation. They most certainly should not be beaten up or murdered because of it. Some gay men would feel wary of going into certain pubs in most cities in this country as well.

How would you feel if one of your gay friends was beaten up because he was homosexual?

I agree with Christopher #54, except I don't think it's really hypocrisy to have a gay club...I understand the principle, but the fact is gays do not have equality and might be entitled to a bit more of a support network in that respect. If you listen to the accounts of these attacks, I think it is made quite clear to the victims that they are being attacked because they are gay and no other reason.

The day they are accepted and treated the same as heteros, they might not have an excuse. For now, I can understand why they might want a place to go that they can relax and feel safe and accepted. Besides, how often do they actually kick straight people out that want to come in?

alison, i would want to know what happened before i passed judgement. if they were beaten for no reason at all other than the fact they were gay then i would be outraged, but knowing some of them when they have been, lets say, indulging in drink and drugs then they have a mouth on them that leaves most to be desired! in actual fact alison whenever any of them have came home injured it has been another gay guy who done it, i have been at parties where they disappear 'up the hill' then come back with a shiner...... are they homophobes?? i totally appreciate your point of view and agree with what you are saying.... your other point reflecting my own views completely here. i never once said that beating anyone up was acceptable all i am saying is provokation fuelled by alcohol is a dangerous thing, whether it be a domestic with a wife and husband or 2 gay guys, a gay guy and a straight guy. it would be interesting to find out how many of these attacks were carried out a) at night b) at the weekend and c) where about. this then highlights the major problem in Scottish society today! can i just say to Mary that i am not saying they should not have a place to go rather the fact that if for whatever reason a large influx of straight people frequented would there be a problem??? and if so where would it come from?

Gordon. Maybe I had a short holiday or maybe I spent a month there. Maybe I overheard a conversation or maybe I talked to people.

I'm not an expert on current affairs and neither are you. But I'm glad to hear that people are getting to vote out the politicians with policies they don't agree with. The only problem is when they move up the political scale they do what they like anyway. Good for you if you believe what politicians say. 90% of Brits supposedly opposed the war in the Iraq.

Anyway, you've got us off the subject. Something is being done about a problem and that's a good thing.

Christopher,

Someone has already mentioned the murder in Clapham, London. While it is well known that Clapham Common is a gay pick up area, there has been no suggestion that the victim tried to solicit his murderers. This was a homophobic murder carried out for no other reason than that.

I know that gay men fight with one another, I know about the other things you are saying, but there are members of our society who are intolerant of homosexuality to the point of violence. The victim does not need to anything other than be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Christopher,

Not sure I've interpreted you correctly, do you mean would it be a problem if a bunch of straight people wanted to start hanging out in a gay bar?

I can't claim to be any kind of expert on gay bar culture, but I've been a couple of times. I would be inclined to say no. I had a gay male friend who took me along a couple of times to a gay pub he frequented, and I must say it was very laid-back. I really don't know how many straight people were in there, but no one asked me my orientation when I walked through the door. I might venture to say that a lot of straight people maight not really want to go back, not that it was unfriendly in any way, but the whole culture was one that you just might not be able to relate to if you weren't really involved with the scene (like gay comedians, a lot of straights just might not get the jokes, which isn't a lot of fun). So in my experience, you wouldn't be deliberately excluded, just might not go back because you don't feel you fit in.

Sorry if that's not what you meant!

alison, who says this murderer doesn't have frontal lobe damage to the brain? has he had a brain scan to detect this. it is becoming more commonly accepted among medics, scientists and the judicial system that, for whatever reason, the brain does not operate like yours or mine, meaning that person is not in control of their actions, if this is the case can they be held responsible?..... the area controlling temper is much cooler than in a normal, whatever that may be, persons head. thus resulting in crazy unpredictable behaviour. i don't want to detract from the fact that i feel sincerely for the friends and family of this most unfortunate person, i have had the unfortunate experience of losing a close friend, who happend to be a girl at the age of 18, this was done by a straight man also!!! this does not make it easier but goes someway to understand how these peoples mind works. it is not good enough to say he done this and he done it coz he was gay. if the murderer has openly confessed to this then i will not mention another word on the matter...... i am not trying to defend this person, more play the role of devils advocate, as you can see from my previous quotes i am not that type of guy!

Of course they are bigots! They were supposed to be there acting in their capacity as tax-funded firefighters, not on their own time! Like AJ already mentioned, gays are paying their salaries too!

mary, don't be sorry sweetheart, all i was getting at is there maybe grounds for discrimination from gay people if they felt there areas were under threat...... basically translating to we all have bias lets learn to live with our differences and move on!

Unfortunatly we live in a world that is over run with preferences of religion, race, and sexual orientation. We have differences, it would be far to boring in the world if we didn't. But to go as far to act upon them in a violent manner, is not fair to anyone. If you take out the fact that you know these people are homosexual, bisexual, whatever they are, they are human in every right, they have feelings, they have opinions. I am not religious....But let me tell you something, there are a good few hundred 'Jenny's' out there, being of the Christian faith and homosexual. This is a religous war that the Chruch isn't going to win. Humans as a whole, need to get along or just tolerate others, agree to disagree. When you have beliefs about a certian type of person....thats prejudice...when they act violently towards them and against them it turns into racism. We live in a world where everyone is different, fat, thin, tall, short...gay, straight. Get used to it.

Gordon. I take it they don't let you air your views too much and so you let off steam here.

Gordon

I am not saying that they do warrant special protection over and above any other innocent person who is attacked. All I am saying is that no one should be beaten up or killed because of sexual orientation and there is a degree of homophobia in our society.

I have, not, personally experienced it because I am not gay. However, I do have a seven year old son and none of us know what the future holds. I would not like to be in the same position as Jody Dowbrowski's mother. (Please, don't respond with ........ he wouldn't have to be gay to be beaten up ......... I know that ....... but the topic is homophobia here in particular not our violent society in general).

Mary

god i just realised i sound like david bent there...... ach well this serious chat needs a bit of humour... i am going home..... happy debating!!!

Christopher

It was 2 men who killed Jody Dubrowski ...... if you want to read the facts on this sickening murder try the Times newspaper link:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2229205.html

No worries Christopher, I gotta go too. Good luck, everyone.

Hate crime legislation is provocative and unnecessary. Why is it worse to thump someone because he is black, white, homosexual? Crime is crime, and should be punished as such.

Singling out groups and making crimes against them more grievous simply aggravates the prejudice that already exists.

This is simply an excuse for hapless politicians to look as if they can actually achieve something.

Colin # 6 in Australia

Hey, Colin in Australia, there are always misinterpretators of the Bible all over the world and having studing advanced religious studies I can say that they Bible can be quoted by the uneducated, uninformed, and just plain ignorant to say whatever it is the s/he THINKS it should say. And how dare you presume to second-guess the word of God!

True ignorance is alive and well in Australia by some vociferous and misinformed few and they should suffer the derision and indifference that they deserve because of their small-minded, Bible-thumping ways that are an insult to Biblical scholarship and intelligent thinking.

FOR GOODNESS SAKE!
Why cant all so-called christians above take the Bible FIGURATIVELY - No one knows whether it was written by a male/female,homo/hetero,black/white-or even if there was a God or not.
Stop looking to this damned book for reasons & excuses.

Hey Colin in Australia,

God didn't write the bible, man did. Therefore it's full of man's prejudices.

Trying to tell me you've lived your life 100% in accordance with the bibles guidlines?

Get real!

Yes I agree with you Gordon, this para is very generalised:

"Research suggests that gay men and lesbians in the UK are four times more likely than heterosexuals to be the victims of a violent assault. But, despite that, ministers decided against extending the law on aggravated offences to cover homophobia, as well as racism and sectarianism"

I don't see how this can be true ........ I suppose they are using "per head of community ratios" here, but even so, if you include all violent assaults, including sexual ones against men and women - the crimes against hetreosexuals must be higher. What about domestic abuse between hetreosexual couples ...... is that included here? I include men abused by women in that remark as I know that happens as well.

They are using figures from the whole of the UK so I think there must be a bit of political spin there.

Religion is the basis for almost every instance of intolerance to be found in the world.

Religion is abused in every society, including ours, as a means to justify bigotry in all its forms. I find it interesting that the only way some people can be sucure in their own faith is to constantly accuse, abuse, and look down on others who do not shae their opinion.

And you wonder why church attendances are falling.....

I think we all agree that everybody has the right to their own beliefs.
It is just now all the so called "minority" groups ram their ideals down the majoritys throats.
Everybody is allowed to call us Scots as drunk and tight fisted.
But if you change the word Scot with asian or gay and all hell breaks loose. You are called somebody who partakes in "Hate Crimes".
God in Canada you are not even allowed to say "Merry Christmas" in a country that is mainly white and Christian.(well except the GTA)

It seems to me that some of the people posting on this forum have way too much time on their hands.

A thread about the Glasgow firemen being discplined for refusing to hand out fire safety material at a gay pride march has been opened on freetalkscotland at http://www.forumspring.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=280&...

_________________
freetalkscotland - the international 24/7 forum from Scotland for serious discussion and light chat

http://www.forumspring.com/freetalkscotlan

Darrell, you are absolutely correct, except its not time they have their hands on and many of them may well go blind.

Being an Elder in the Kirk does not entitle me to judge anyone. "Judge not less you be judged"., says it all. every Christian is the brother or sister to every other Christian, and if anyone proclaims Jesus Christ as his Saviour that person is unequivocally my brother or sister, whatever branch of Christanity, whatever leanings in sexuality, politics whatever race or colour
I am not empowered to judge right or wrong.
Indeed as a university graduate I do not have the knowledge or education to be able to judge such a matter but I can say with authority to those who think they know better, desist from your bigotry by command of my Lord and yours. Kneel and praise the Lord and beg his forgiveness now!

Gordon, "Community fire safety has become an integral part of the Fire Service's role as brigades work to reduce the risk of fire, and its high cost in terms of lives, suffering and loss." That's from the National Community Fire Safety Website.

Firefighters ARE paid to "hand out leaflets" - they were told off to staff a stall on fire safety at a community event, and they seem to have refused out of nothing but bigotry. One of them actually claimed "moral values" and brought along a priest to talk to his bosses - as if a Catholic ought to think it's "moral" to refuse to let gays have fire safety information!

Also present at the Pride Scotia community fair were stalls run by British Transport Police, Strathclyde Police, and the Scottish Prison Service. If they weren't afraid to staff information stalls at a community event, why on earth were these big brave firefighters afraid to do it?

I am a Catholic and accept my church's leaders teachings on the subject of gay marriage, as I do on the subjects of ordination of women/ practising gay clergy etc...

I am gay, and have had a lovely committment ceremony with my partner for life, conducted by a priest, and we talk privately of our "marriage", but we accept that it is not the same as the marriage proclaimed a sacrament by my church (my partner is non-denominational).

We are happy to be equal but different and don't crave full legal rights as a couple. We have wills, that guarentee all the important legal aspects of our lives perfectly well enough, without turning marriage into a circus.

I don't expect that most readers will agree with me in my humble acceptance of my church's doctrine, so I won't force the issue. But there are many gay Catholics living happily in relationships, who are conservative people happy to abide by the rules! We have faced no prejudice in our parish, and are openly, 'though discretely, a couple. We feel loved and respected as people, and as Christians.

Our priests (Passionist Fathers) preach love, tolerance and inclusiveness. We have one of the largest multi-cultural parishes in Sydney. Irrespective of individuals' prejudices (be they racial or heterosexist) the message preached is Love and Faith, Tolerance and Kindness. And, by and large, we all get on!

You, who call yourselves Christians, but preach hate and intolerance are only doing the devil's work for him. Learn to love like Christ. It doesn't mean you have to like it, or even accept it. Just let gay people live, and love, unmolested. Is that too much to ask of you? Leave biblical interpretation to the scholars and theologians, and just learn to love your fellows.

I have a personal prejudice against unnattractive, badly-dressed Presbyterians, but I don't go out at night and beat them up! Come to think of it, didn't Jesus say something about it being okay to throw stones

Our village pub was bought by a man who was overtly homosexual. He did a fantastic job on renovating the pub, and he was an excellent landlord.

Unfortunately, after he had been here a year or so, much of his conversation was based on double entendres, and on a couple of occasions he squeezed the behinds of men who live in the village. He tried to pass it off as a joke, but the victims did not see it that way.

Over a period of about six months patronage of the pub was noticeably down and he has now sold the pub and moved on.

All the time he did not try to spread his homosexuality, he was very popular and the pub prospered. But when he started to make homosexuality a characteristic of the pub people voted with their feet.

I have no objection to homosexuals being overtly homosexual, but I find some of their practises repulsive, and I do not want to be constantly reminded of them.

Homosexuals have every right to be overt in their behaviour, but I have every right not to patronise businesses where I find their behaviour to be repulsive.

There are laws against assault, and everybody should have the same right to be protected by them. The punishment should be proportional to the degree of suffering and loss, not the colour, or religion, or sex of the offender.

This is not an issue of gay rights this is an issue of HUMAN rights and no one has the right to attack another person on the basis of religous belief. The CHURCH - what ever church you belong to and the STATE are seperate.

We all have personal belief systems and there is not one of us that 100% agrees with anothers points, life or choices - this however is NOT justification for violence in what ever form it takes - physical, emotional, psychological, financial what ever... and should NEVER be accepted as justification either.

Being a Christian no longer affords anyone a special place in life or most importantly the courts. Your religious standpoint what ever it maybe including atheism is a personal CHOICE - being gay lesbian bi or trans IS NOT it is A FACT OF LIFE. Much like being male female, black, coloured, white, a redhead a blone whatever.

It is incredibly purile that we [The Scots] as a supposed mature intellegent properous and
fair [???] 1st world country behave in such a manner because we fear difference in others.

Reading this article and some of the comments on this thread makes me ashamed to be Scottish and only glad I left Scotland. I was planning to move back home, but to be honest I do not want to be associated with such childish banal yet highly dangerous bigotry hatered and down right ill thought out nonsense.

This is nothing short of the kind of out right and disgusting behaviour shown by slave traders, witch hunters and other superstisous power crazed lunatics of the early 18th and 19th century. We are supposed to be in the 21st century...are we not?

Are we so small minded that we cannot live in peace and tolerance of each other if not actually celebrate our differences?

Scotland I am ashamed.

Completely agree with Roisin (91) and this is a big part of why my family is leaving Scotland shortly. To be blunt, we don't want to raise kids here.

Jim (90), this is not a gay thing. I don't know if it's a man thing, but as a woman of a certain age I have had to put up with an unending stream of straight men in my time who behaved this way. I don't mean boyfriends, just guys you come across in life. The sexual innuendoes, not quite being able to get by you wthout brushing up, and so on. I think most women would agree that we have to deal with this all the time from heterosexual men.

On the one hand I deplore all the sterotyping etc. on both sides that I see here.
But on the other hand I couldn't help but laugh when people complain about having our gayness rammed down their throats. And at the guy who moaned about getting his backside felt up.
We drown in a sea of heterosexual imagery, activity and celebration. Heterosexual sex is on blatant display on billboard, bus shelters, TV screens, cinemas, everyday conversation, the way you behave in the streets.....
And straight men are forever pinching women's bums, making unwanted passes, leering at lingerie models . . . .
So now the biter doesn't like it when we bite back? You don't like being reminded that we're not all like you?
Well ha ha ha - serves you right.
When no-one pays the slightest attention to two guys kissing goodbye at the bus stop . . . two women taking their children to school . . . . when every heterosexual man learns to take it as a compliment when another guy wolf-whistles at him or pats his rear end . . . oh the examples are endless, but that's what equality looks like, and that's where we're going, so get used to it.
And as far as all the bible-quoters are concerned - point one, we have NO, repeat NO verbatim records of what Jesus said or did recorded at the time he said or did them. Any bible scholar will tell you all the books, including the gospels, were written long after the event, and record the oral traditions that grew up after Jesus death. There is no such thing as 'gospel truth', only gospel hearsay.
And point two, most of the anti-gay ranting comes from St Paul, who never even met Jesus, and was a self-hating homosexual himself. He's the biggest heretic of them all. And all that Old Testament stuff? Didn't Jesus time and again say, yes you should obey the law, and then promptly demonstrate the stupidity of slavishly following it? For those who have ears to hear, Jesus message was Resurrection, which equals renewal. His mess

Being a young woman from Glasgow, I have found the comments here most interesting! This seems to be everyone's favourite topic of discussion - perhaps because people feel safe to air their views, narrow minded or not, from the safety of behind a computer screen? I was particularly saddened to hear that some men are disgusted at so called predatory gay men for asked them out, can't you just say thanks but no thanks, like women have to do practically every time they go out for an evening?? I agree that it is distasteful for someone to ask you out if your other half is present, but from experience of working in a "straight" bar if you want to differentiate the types, I have seen time and time again men doing this to girls who are clearly with someone else so just because the shoe is on the other foot you can't complain.

Secondly, the thing that people are choosing to forget is that the issue here is not what the bible says because as it has been mentioned before, not everyone believes in jesus, or even god! If it's not for you fine. If it is, fine, but why do we feel the need to attack? Pyscology tells us that we only attack what we fear and we can get over what we fear by understanding. You may not still agree with it in the end but at least you can't plead ignorance. Is this how you would like your children to grow up?

I'm curious to know why the Justice Minister [and her colleagues] rejected the hard line on hate crime. Longer sentences etc. were "not the way forward" - well, what IS the way? I find it very hard to understand how they can justify doing nothing about this. Religious bigotry used to be commonplace in Scotland. Now we're getting homophobia - not a new thing, God knows, but more reports - which is often, it seems, excused on religious [read 'bigoted'] grounds. Let the writers who quote Leviticus and St Paul answer the rational criticisms above. But I don't think they will. May I say that I'm damned glad to live in a country which has sexual orientation legalised - I know we have bigots too - but on this little island no one gives a damn about this. I must admit that for all my pride in being Scots, I am often ashamed when I consider what my country does.

So-called anti-hate laws are evil. If you seek to outlaw 'hate' you seek to control thought and thought control is the domain of tyrants. Hate only becomes a crime when someone else is harmed. If someone assaults someone, the crime is a crime involving assault, not a 'hate crime'. Gay activists are seeking for impose a new morality, just as the communists and fascists did. Most people instinctively know that homosexual acts are against nature and certainly against the moral teaching of most religions. Gay activists say the Bible is wrong to call homosexuality a sin, but where do they draw the line? If committing homosexual acts is not a sin, is cheating on your wife not a sin? Of course not, say all the so-called free thinkers (except when it happens to them). So there's no such thing as sexual immorality? OK then, pedophilia is not a sin either. After all, it's just somen old law written in the Old Testament! And the same goes for buggery and so on and so on ... Personally I don't hate homosexuals. I don't hate any human being - even if I do get angry with some. To hate is a sin, but it's up to me, as a Christian, to deal with it and forgive. The Bible states we have sin in our blood, we are all sinners (homosexual or heterosexual) and repentance is required of all. Sin has its expression when others are harmed. The law is there to seek justice and recompense for harm done - not to control thought.

Yes, what is with all this bible-thumping, anyway? This is about beating people up and killing them! Why do some people constantly need to keep consulting this book? Don't you know the difference between right and wrong for yourselves?

Whoa Mel, you must have posted right before I did. You can't possibly think there's no difference between two consenting adults choosing to lead their lives as they want and attacking a defenseless child?

Hate crimes seek to outlaw certain beliefs and control thought. As such they are tyrannical. Jesus said be angry but do not sin. Neither let the sun go down on your anger. To hate should not be a crime. Traditionally, the crime is only when someone is harmed.

So many comments- a hundred in fact ! Has anyone mentioned people who are openly gay and who look for non-gays to attack ?
My wife and I and another couple were shopping in Thailand when we were forcibly pushed aside, although we were certainly not in anyones way , by this arrogant little slob of a gay and his Thai "lady-boy !" He was obviously in his own personal heaven - rent-boys for a fraction of the price he must pay in London and the local people being courteous and polite allowed this sweaty, puce-faced arrogant nonentity to shove them aside when he shouted in his high-pitched voice "Excuse ME ! " He thought he would show other Westerners that he was a force to be reckoned with and he quite deliberately pushed us almost knocking me over ,and when I remonstrated with him, he subjected me to a tirade of the most foul abuse imaginable - worse than anything I have heard on a Saturday night in Scotland !
He does not know how near he was to being given a kiss " A Glesca' Kiss " that is -even though I am nearly eighty! Only the pleas of my wife and the fear of my being incarcerated in a Thai prison (maybe with some of his lady-boy's friends who perhaps preferred older men) saved me from retaliating ! Had this happened in U.K. I assume I would be charged with a "hate-crime !"
Forgive me for saying this, but I honestly believe that it will happen, that some time soon, paedophiles will demand freedom to perpetrate their own brand of sexual depravity in the name of "Human Rights!"
After all, what is abhorrent for some is natural for others they will say !

For Roisin, You think that the Irish are more opened minded than us Scots, Well Hen !!You havent traveled far enough in the world to express opinions about Scotland. I think you should stay in Ireland. because you will not be missed here I can assure you of that.----- AL-70 )Gordon can say what he wants to about Scotland simply because he is a real Scot!!. He was born here.OK . And as for (Jesus ), Please leave him out of this!! Not one of you are fit to tie his sandal strap. People may live thier lives whichever way they please while they are on this earth. However everything must end and then we will all find out when we get to the other side.If we have lived your life properly or not. So to be on the safe side believe in something higher than yourselves.Even the moon, sun, and earth, and the planets obey the laws of physics.They obviously know a lot more than us mere mortals down here who are worried about people's sexual function or sexual dyfunction. Leave it to God.He is a lot bigger than all of us and (He )will sort it out at the other side. Perhaps you should try and pray for each other.As for the gay catholics Try The ROSARY.

I do not have an honours degree in anything, nor am I an expert in Divinity. However I have read the Bible and it is so obvious that “a man lying with a man” is not some “Jewish purity law,” but a correct description of homosexuality. In fact, God describes homosexuality as an “abomination”…the harshest terminology used for any sin.

Helen contradicts herself by admitting that the Leviticus passage is full of rules that don’t need to be obeyed today, after saying that the homosexual description means something else entirely. The “rules” are straightforward and it appears one must attend university to twist something obvious into whatever suits your fancy.

Also, in reference to the rise in so-called homophobic assaults…what makes any assault more degrading or painful than any other assault? The crime is the assault…period. Not the (fill-in-the-blank) assault.

Consider the definition of homophobic….the fear of homosexuality or homosexuals. I dare say I will be labeled a homophobe. May I please assert that I have no fear at all of homosexuals, so restrain from labeling me as such.

Jesus indeed encourages us to love one another. But what kind of love is that? Unconditional acceptance is not what Jesus is talking about. Love does not mean to tolerate and accept every single thing that feels good.

Why is it more offensive to be against homosexuals than to actually be one?

Homophobia (a stupid term as it implies fear) seems to be a worse crime than sodomy.

Forgot to ask, what is LGBT? Over here, it sounds similar to what you ask to be added to your Big Mac

Again, everyone is so keen to cling on to the Bible and "cherry pick" certain laws, all of which can be interpreted a number of ways; although people can choose to take them literally or metaphorically, how can you be absoloutely sure that you are right and someone else is wrong? Sikhism is one of the top five world religions that has is basis firmly in equality. Only cultural differences has distorted this true identity and it is only 500 years old. Christiananity is 2000 years old so don't you think that there has been some distortion over the years in the true meanings of some or all of the teachings??

Again, as for being pushed aside by a camp Thai man, well there is no excuse for rudeness but I have forgotten the number of times sleazy old straight men have invaded my personal space at the bus stop, in the pub, at the library.....the list goes on and I'm sure there are a million other women out there that can say the same and you only have the one example to come up with that isn't even related to the topic of people being abused just because of what they are!!

I would like to say though that it is very very worrying some people class consenting adult relationships and sexual abuse of young children as being the same? Absolutley disgusting and I know that if you asked someone who has been abused they would not liken a consenting relationship to that any day, irrespective of your personal views on how "natural" gay and lesbian relationships are, I doubt you can be an authority on the subject unless you are gay or lesbian.

Jack, LGBT=lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender.

Shaw: <I>However I have read the Bible and it is so obvious that “a man lying with a man” is not some “Jewish purity law,” but a correct description of homosexuality. </I>

You have probably not read the Bible in the original Hebrew.

va-Yikra 18:22 (Leviticus 18:22 )
And to (a) male you (2nd person masc sing) will not lie down (euphemistic) from (comparative use) the lying-down (euph.)-of-(a)-woman! (An) improper mixing, it is!

va-Yikra 20:13 (Lev 20:13 )
And (a) man who he shall lie down (euphemistic) to (a) male from (comparative use) the lying-down (euph.) -of-(a)-woman (an) improper mixing they did the two of them, they will surely die their blood(s) (is) in/with/by them.

"The critical word here (toe-ay-vah) is a ritual word, also used to describe ritually unclean food (Deut 14:3), worshippers of idols (Isa 14:24), marrying an idol worshipper (Mal 2:11), sacrifices offered by a wicked person (Prov 21:27), and various other acts not acceptable in the ritual sphere. This has to do with ritual cleanliness/purity (which has nothing to do with washing) - it is the proper state for someone just about to offer a sacrifice. "

The condemnation of a man having sex with a man "as if he were a woman" says nothing at all about a man having sex with another man because he's a man: and of course women having sex with women are simply not included. Nor are either of those verses in Leviticus relevant unless you wish to keep yourself in a state of ritual purity suitable for offering sacrifices to God.

I should have added: if you do wish to keep yourself in a state of ritual purity, Shaw, there are far more laws than just refraining from having sex with men that you have to obey!

Jack, homophobia is worse than sodomy in the same way as racism is worse than interracial marriage.

The people who are comparing paedophilia and homosexuality are way off track. Paedophilia is a crime and there is always a victim and whatever, these perverts may say force is used. Whether it is physical, mental or emotional. Homosexuality between consenting adults is completely different. The key words are 'consenting' and 'adult'. The moment you start to justify homophobia by comparing homosexuality it to paedophilia ......... your argument is lost.

To those, men who are complaining about being touched up by gay men............. that is what most women have to put with from hetreosexual men .. some of whose advances and attention are most definitely not welcome.

Jane, thank you for your most interesting post...... however, I fear that even your knowledge will not sway the bigots among us.

For those of you who keep bringing God into the argument. Here's some hot news for you. A lot of people in the UK do not go to church and do not believe in your God. The more you go on about disputed doctrine which is thousands of years old and portrays your God as a jealous, vengefull, intolerant and wrathfull God then the more unlikely it is that anyone will turn to him or listen to you.

If you want to win people's hearts and minds and inspire faith as Jesus did, you should be extolling the compassion, forgiveness and love of God as he did.

"Love one another as I have loved you"

The 'god hates Queers' argument is...well that's been debunked both here andelsewhere (the normal reading of the passages is that it refers to temple prostitution.)

What I find distressing is the argument that we deserve to be beeten. It's because we just won't keep out mouths shut isn't it? Apply that to other groups: those Kykes with their big noses and dark curly hair, why don't they just shut up about one of the defining identities in their lifes; those bloody Niggers, why do they haveto identify as a minority; those Bitches that go on about rape and discrimination, they deserve it for being women!

Astounding, truelly astounding.

In conclusion ladies, gentlemen, boys, girls, lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgenders: if we all want to get along, we have remove the last vestiges of our sexuality in order to discover the human being, would you all agree?

We should move into a monochromatic, asexual world and therefore all prejudices will die and utopia will be achieved. Just like Hitler did when he tried to create a utopic Arian world of tall, blonde haired blue eyed super humans, even though he was short and dark haired himself.

God made us all the way we are, and he loves us all.

We are all brothers and sisters in this world, and the day we learn to love one another, in the same way God loves us, we would finally have Heaven on Earth.

Don't find reason to hate, just be at peace.

What if God and Jesus aren't even real, then 90% of all these arguments over who said what, when they said it, and what was meant by it, and how we should interpret it are completely meaningless.

Why don't we ask Santa and the Tooth Fairy what their position on this is too?

Or, dare I suggest it, we could just live in the REAL WORLD and apply some common sense, some respect for others, and some tolerance to issues such as this. Maybe that might be just a little more relevant than arguing about what some mystical Jewish bloke said 2000 years ago and what he's thinking now as he sits up there in the sky.

God created man..god created woman..but who created Homosexual..I guess ..man did that all on his own
Of course gays are just like so called straight people in many ways..like us the like to eat .drink..dance..watch tv..enjoy sunshine etc..the only real differences between us is that nasty perverted habit gays have ..and after all..it was such decadent acts such as homosexuality that brought down a great empire..called rome...so be warned by history..nuff said
I suppose now I can be called biggot and homophobic..but you dont have to justify your actions to me..its God you will answer to

Dave said: "In conclusion ladies, gentlemen, boys, girls, lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgenders: if we all want to get along, we have remove the last vestiges of our sexuality in order to discover the human being, would you all agree?"

No, of course not. What a silly suggestion. Though there is a theory that the most virulent homophobes hate openly-LGBT people because the homophobes are lesbian or gay closet cases and jealous as hell. Would you say that's true. Dave?

Eideard,

If heaven is going to be full of people like you .......... then count me out ........... I'll head in the other direction. Your idea of heaven would be my idea of hell anyway!!

What a small, bitter, interolerant, violent and nasty country Scotland comes across as based on the comments above. Which is strange, because it isn't the impression of the place I get - whether living, working or as a student in Edinburgh, nor of the Highland village where I come from. I'm just glad that the people who come out of the woodwork online aren't representative of the country as a whole.

Allison

I dont recall reading anywhere in the bible that all mankind goes to heaven..and i would like to know where you got that idea from
But who jesus was talking to in the sermon on mount was not ALL mankind..but his chosen and faithfull disciples...so maybe you pressume you are one that has been chosen to go there..who knows.
If you once again check history you will find that some of the most murderous leaders were in fact gay..and even the great Alexander was one...seems like you guys through time and history like to cause trouble ..and even now you shout about your rights all the time..and another fact..a lot of modern day killers and serial killers are gays...See a pattern folks...go check it out
I say this not in anger but from observation and fact...now I await all the name calling ..From the gays and wannabe gays..I Know you wont let me down..Show me your Bile

Eideard, it's true that Edward Gibbon blamed "effeminacy" for the fall of the Roman Empire. (But it would be false to equate "effeminacy" with being gay.) Edward Gibbon *also* blamed Christianity for the fall of the Roman Empire: "Christianity, he says, created a belief in another world, that is to say that a better life existed after death. This fostered indifference to this life among the Roman citizens who believed they would live a better life once they died, thus sapping their desire to maintain and sacrifice for the Empire. He also believed its comparative pacifism tended to sap the traditional Roman martial spirit." (From the wiki entry on The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon.)

The problem is that MOST of humanity thinks that homosexuality is a perversion. Until a few years ago the psychiatric community believed it was a mental illness.

I don't believe for one split second that the militant gay rights activists will stop at tolerance. They "came out" and were tolerated. Now they want acceptance....even to be applauded and embraced. If they don't get it by peaceful means they will weasel their way into legislative bodies and create and enforce laws to push their own perverted beliefs onto an unwitting and unwanting society.

Take a look at Clause 28....over a million Scottish citizens, on their own, passed a referendum to stop gays from pushing their agenda into schools. But the referendum was ignored because the voices of the people didn't go through the "right" channels. How is that democracy? But why wouldn't the gays want to get their predatorial paws into schools...what a wonderful harvest!!

Since when did gay = paedophile?

Look at statistics. Most are straight men abusing girls.

Mary

I seem to remember not long ago...that the first GAY couple to foster parents in Britain were done for molesting the children they fostered.
I wonder if thats Gay=Paedo..and I also wonder how many more will be exposed before long..And as to straights abusing girls...Its not so called straight people who want the age for sex continually lowered.. its actually Gays
So my question is at what age does a gay act become a Peado act..I guess if the age is lowered to 14 like you people want ...EH

Shaw, the "referendum" was a mailing sent out by Brian Souter, with a postage-paid envelope to send the form back. There was no control to establish that people were voting only once, 7.6% of the ballots were undeliverable, and the response rate was in any case about 34%. So, what the "referendum" showed was that if you poll 92% of the population of Scotland on Section 28, 66% of them don't care one way or the other.

It appears that most gays desire younger and younger victims. After all, the entire lifestyle is built upon a preference for a certain way to gratify themselves sexually. The more gratifying, the more that perversion will be practiced.

I will always affirm that homosexuality is a perversion. But I've never hated, feared or belittled a gay person, any more than I have done the same toward a crippled or mentally handicapped person. I believe that gay militant activisim is asking for the backlash it is receives now.

Gays won't stop until they have twisted and perverted history, the law, education, media and everything else to suit their own sordid practices. Just remember that people who believe in God's word (without strangling it to meet a pre-conceived idea) are just as "equal" as gays. We will stand up and fight for our own beliefs...and will do it with much more decorum.

Jane

I've no idea. I've seen that comment a lot i.e. you are a closet this or that if you openly hate this or that. I don't think it holds true really.

I hate brocolli, does that mean I'm a closet brocolli? Of course not (ps I have expressed no inclination as to whether I hate or not hate LGBT people, I try to keep an open mind and judge people on attitude rather than sexuality and from this forum, both sides have equally bad attitudes)

By the way, being a phobic usually means having an irrational fear of something therefore being a homophobe is an irrational fear of homo's I guess. I understand in this world we are supposed to suppress these fears and thoughts but it's hard and nobody should be forced too. I'm an arachnaphobic, should I be forced to tolerate spiders if they make my skin crawl? If not, am I then being anti spider and therefore animal welfare people should convert me?

It's an irrational fear, let people get used to it rather than force them to. Just playing Devils advocate so don't shoot me down.

One more thing before I go off to work: do I not have the right to voice my own beliefs (in the Bible) to teach them to my children, to espouse them in the streets, to parade them publically, to try everything in my power to persuade those around me that I am right? If you tell me I do not have this right...then neither do you. That we are at loggerheads is frustrating and sad indeed. I just want you to keep your perversion to yourself and stop forcing the rest of us to support you. We won't, not now and not ever.

Being gay isn't about sex, nor should hetrosexuality be. It is about who you feel comfortable and closest to. It is about two people coming together and wanting to share each others lives.

Paedophilia is a perversity that occurs both amongst straights and gays. What occured with the first gay foster couple is something you will probably find has occured with some straight foster couples.

If you want to accuse a certain group of people for perversions like paedophilia, than I suppose it would be the male sex. I hate to say it, but whenever crimes like rape, sexual abuse, etc have occured, they are all men. Not women, not lesbians (and I do believe we are talking about them as gays aswell). So I suppose, as I am male, I will be going to hell because it is always men that are doing these things. As we are suggesting that all gays are the same (focusing on all the bad points), so then if we look at all men as the same, well what do you think??!!

(By the way, I believe that Hell is purely a state of mind - Heaven is not selective, Jesus died on the cross for all of us - remember? And another thing, when Jesus came to Earth, he didn't socialise with the so-called goody goodies that spent their time hapilly condeming others in the name of God, he went to the victims of their bigatry, the poor and looked down upon)

Sure God Forgives and Jesus tolerates...but the way its supposee to work is like this..Certain things in the bible..as in life are sinfull to practice.
So you pray for forgivness and help from God to stop sinning...and he will help you with this.
But the condition is that you stop repeating the act that you prayed for help to stop in the first place..and you cant have a gay christian...its a contradiction..But..A gay can Become a Christian by changing his or her lifestyle to comply with gods rules and laws...just as any straight sinner can
A person cant say..I think this rule in the bible is right..this one is right...But this one is wrong.
Thats the whole point of rules in the first place.

"I'm an arachnaphobic, should I be forced to tolerate spiders if they make my skin crawl? If not, am I then being anti spider and therefore animal welfare people should convert me?"

I'm terrified of spiders too, but I don't hit them with a book. Literally or metaphorically. I do agree that getting over these 'in-built' fears is about culturally acclimatising people to them, eventually there will be no need for these kinds of legislation. In the meantime, there are real people in need of protection.

"do I not have the right to voice my own beliefs (in the Bible) to teach them to my children, to espouse them in the streets, to parade them publically"

Yes.

"to try everything in my power to persuade those around me that I am right?"

No.

Society does not run well on anarchy.

Eideard @ 119 said

"If you once again check history you will find that some of the most murderous leaders were in fact gay..and even the great Alexander was one...seems like you guys through time and history like to cause trouble ..and even now you shout about your rights all the time..and another fact..a lot of modern day killers and serial killers are gays...See a pattern folks...go check it out"

How interesting, was this post directed at me ..... because I dislike people being targetted for their sexual orientation ......... you assume I am gay. I am not but I am also not a bigot like you.

A lot of modern day killers serial or otherwise target women and are hetreosexual. A lot of crimes are sex related but women or children are more often the victims. There are more murders and assaults by hetreosexual men against other men .... try any major town or city over a weekend. Your argument is facile and blinded by predjudice.

By the way when you stand before your maker let us hope he is not gay.

The reason I made the post about heaven is because I do not believe in that either .......... and people with your attitude to others are one of the reasons.

Tobias (And another thing, when Jesus came to Earth, he didn't socialise with the so-called goody goodies that spent their time hapilly condeming others in the name of God, he went to the victims of their bigotry, the poor and looked down upon)

But Jesus of course would preach to anyone..as all deserve the chance to listen to his word and try to stop sinfull practices.
If man does not have to change his sinfull ways..then why did Jesus make such a sacrifice in the first place..and to keep sinning when you should know better..is to make Jesus sacrifice a waste of time...I guess in the end it boils down to faith..and from true knowlege faith can be formed

Johnny....Don't you see...from the non-Gay viewpoint which happens to be the majority...the gays are absolutely ramming their beliefs down our throats while demanding support. In fact there was a recent newspaper article stating that ministers are going to launch a campaign to "make" Scots support gay-rights. I say "make" gays support Christian rights to persuade others to the Christian way of life!

Look....if gays don't come into my workplace and make me go to their parades and hand out leaflets, if gays will stay out of the schools and stop teaching my children that being gay is normal, etc....then I will not go into your workplace or schools with my Bible, and I won't force you to go to church and hand out leaflets. I can't believe you can't see the hypocrisy.

By the way....what is the definition of gay if not a sexual preference...what is it then?

Eidard said

"And as to straights abusing girls...Its not so called straight people who want the age for sex continually lowered.. its actually Gays"

What planet do you live on? There are cases without number of men abusing young girls and female children. Most of them would love to have the age limit lowered but are afraid to come out of the dark, depraved world they inhabit to demand it. What about all the sex tourists in the Far East who pay for sex with children ...... I know some of them are gay but the fast majority are straight.

There are more straight men in the world than gay ..... it is obvious that there will be more abuse of females and ergo there will be more abuses committed against female children.

No, I am not saying that all straight men are abusers before anyone jumps on that one. I know that there are good, kind, decent men in this world they just seem to be in short supply in some of these posts.

Shaw @ 133

"In fact there was a recent newspaper article stating that ministers are going to launch a campaign to "make" Scots support gay-rights. I say "make" gays support Christian rights to persuade others to the Christian way of life!"

2 things:

1. Don't believe everything you read in newspapers which are for sale and are trying to grab reader's attention.

2. Christianity has been persuading others to support it for centuries ............ quite often by force, fear or intimidation.

3. There are a lot of people in this world who want nothing to do with your "Christian God" ........... I wonder why?

Sorry that should have been 3 things....... I can actually count

I'm not gay, and thank goodness for that! I am a Christian, and I really feel for those who have to face such rediculous prejudice. To be afraid or irritated by people trying to go about their lives. People who have to work really hard to get equal rights, just because they are different.

To have a gay partner is not a sin, in the same way as having a straight partner. If the relationship is based on sex and lust, then it is a sin, this applies to hetrosexuals as well by the way. Now I have quite a few gay friends, and I must say, none of them go on about sex, they have yet to mention it, my hetreosexual friends on the other hand don't stop - and I hate it!

But really, we are throwing around the word sin an awful lot, and the way some of you are talking about it, it is like as though you have committed no sin what so ever. Thank goodness God looks at life differently.

"from the non-Gay viewpoint which happens to be the majority"

I have a non-gay viewpoint. It happens to differ very dramatically from yours.

"the gays are absolutely ramming their beliefs down our throats"

I still can't believe that anyone can choose that turn of phrase and keep a straight face.

"I say "make" gays support Christian rights to persuade others to the Christian way of life!"

Which has been happening for centuries. Do you think homosexuality is a recent invention?

"if gays don't come into my workplace and make me go to their parades and hand out leaflets"

Gay people make you go to parades? How exactly did they manage to threaten you into that? Fine, next time I get a letter through my door inviting me to a church coffee morning (had several this year already) then I'll start shouting that I'm being pressurised.

"By the way....what is the definition of gay if not a sexual preference...what is it then?"

Er, it is a sexual preference. The word 'sex' means the biological differentiation between men and women.

Being gay is ofcourse a sexual preference, it is the sex you are naturally attracted to. But at the same time, loving somebody as a partner, is not and should not be based on the act of intercourse. It is more than that! It is about being attracted to that persons personality, wanting to spend your life with them.

Allison

People who want nothing to do with a Christian god are usually people who do not want to be held accountable..thus no guilt.
Just for the record..ive never beaten up or harmed a gay person in my life..and do not condone violence to anyone...but will never accept their lifestyle as right.
And as more straight people get beat up at weekends etc.. than gays..why should gays get special rules made to protect them..surely all assault is wrong..whether it be black or white or gay or straight or muslim..ALL equally wrong.
As to newspapers..depends on what ones you read sometimes.
And My Christian god..is also your Christian god too..whether you believe it or not is your choice..anyway I hope this discussion has not filled you with anger..Tioraidh

Eideard

No, this discussion has not filled me with anger...... just some sadness........ people whatever their sexual orientation or religion should show one another more tolerance.

Regards

The one thing you are forgetting Eideard is that straight people are not getting beaten up because they are straight, it is for other reasons. But homosexuals are getting assaulted for simply being gay. They are not the only minority group that is experiencing this, don't you realise that there are other minorities that are actively trying to do something about the violence against them as well! Look at the muslims in England right now, just because of the few extreamists amongst them, they are being condemned by society and abused. They are looking for what you call "special rules" to protect them (and rightly so)! Why is it you seem to only realise one manority group and not the other. All this about gays "ramming down your throat" their lifestyle and so on, it is a pigment of your imagination, something you have exagerated because you have issues. This news report is just like many others, but becuase it is gay, it is all of a sudden so much worse for people to tolerate!

Alison

Good im glad of that..as to anger was not my Intention.
But as to you Tobias..(But really, we are throwing around the word sin an awful lot, and the way some of you are talking about it, it is like as though you have committed no sin what so ever. Thank goodness God looks at life differently)

If you are a Christian as you say...then you follow your own version of gods rules... not gods..it seems.
Of course we are all sinners..born into sin...but for example..Thou shalt not steal...Im sure that everyone will agree that to steal is wrong (except maybe the guy stealing)..but do you honestly think that if you steal..then realise its wrong to do so..and ask forgivness for stealing..that once you are forgiven..its ok to go steal again..no
The way is to ask forgivness for the sin..and try your best not to comitt that sin again..otherwise its a never ending cycle that goes no place...and this applies to all gods rules..no exception..but of course everyone whether gay or straight has the right to learn about god...what they do with what they learn is up to them..and we will ALL be held accountable one day..no exeption.
And by the way..I dont go to any church..as some of them dont seem to follow whats in their own bibles..and a lot of church teaching is in many ways contrary to whats really in the bibe

Tobias

you got the wrong person..I did not post this

All this about gays "ramming down your throat" their lifestyle and so on, it is a pigment of your imagination, something you have exagerated because you have

And why is it a worse crime for a gay to get beat up than anyone else..the act of assault is the actual crime..not the reason for it

Shaw: "One more thing before I go off to work: do I not have the right to voice my own beliefs (in the Bible) "

As has already been pointed out to you, what you *believe* is in the Bible isn't anything like what is *actually* in the Bible. Of course you have the right to say that you believe it says in the Bible that gay sex is wrong. You also have the right to say that you believe it says in the Bible that little green men from Alpha Centauri are kidnapping cats for experiments. You'll be wrong both times, but you certainly have the right to say so.

It is illegal in the UK to discriminate in employment on the grounds of sexual orientation, so "if gays don't come into my workplace" is just not going to happen. If your job requires you to go to community events and hand out leaflets, you will need to do what your employer tells you, regardless of who is running the community event and who's attending it. There are plenty of gay teachers and students already IN schools, and your offer to be nice if only LGBT teachers leave their jobs and LGBT students play truant isn't much of an offer.

Of course being gay is normal. Why shouldn't your children learn that it is? If one of them is gay, do you want him to grow up afraid and lonely? Do you really want him to play truant because he's heard you say that you want gays to stay out of schools?

# 132 Eideard:

>>when Jesus came to Earth

Did he?

>>If man does not have to change his sinfull ways..

Who gets to decide what is sinful then...you?

>>in the end it boils down to faith..and from true knowlege faith can be formed

therein lies the problem - faith. It's difficult (obviously) to achieve harmony between those who operate on faith and those who operate on reality. If you can accept (embrace, even) a concept such as God, who may or may not be real, based on faith, why then is it so difficult to accept gay people, who ARE real.

>>and from true knowlege faith can be formed

Oh please. Faith only exists to fill the gaps that knowledge has not yet filled - true knowledge renders faith obsolete.

Jane

Normal..,usual ,regular, typical, free from physical disorder..Not my words (English dictionary)
And as a straight person is most of these words.it would seem that normal is not the correct word to define gay...Eideard

My apologies for getting the wrong person for that bit. But I never said that a crime against gays was worse than any other. Didn't you read what I said about the Muslims! I am against hatred to all minorities, and all others forms of crime that put others in upsetting predicaments.

To compare a couples relationship to stealing is obsurd!! And doesn't the Bible mention something about not being accusaional to others , not casting stones, etc. Maybe you should go to church, help give yourself a clearer understanding of what the Bible is saying to you!

But seriously, I have seen a few close friends, and a relative, really suffer trying to come to terms with their sexuality. One of which tried hard to be heteroesexual and got himself in a right mess - something he wouldn't have had to go through if society weren't so condemming. If you have seen the pain that I have had to see people I care about go through, you would change your opinion - it changed mine!

But really, I think it is best if we just worried about what we as individuals do in this world, without dictating to others what they should or shouldn't be doing as far as this matter is concerned. But please, treat these people, as well as all others, with care - I don't want to see any more hurt or harm happen to those I love.

Tobias, I wouldn't have such a problem with gays if they didn't throw their perversion in my face. We who believe the practice is wrong and harmful to society are forced to stand up and say, this far and no farther. YOU may believe homosexuality is "normal" but it is NOT. Otherwise gays wouldn't be in the minority...duh.

Tobias

To compare a couples relationship to stealing is obsurd!! And doesn't the Bible mention something about not being accusaional to others , not casting stones

I did not mean to compare...only to use as an example...and I take it you go to church..well you can tell me something..what do I call god..just god...or does he have a name?

Shaw
"We who believe the practice is wrong and harmful to society are forced to stand up and say, this far and no farther. YOU may believe homosexuality is "normal" but it is NOT. Otherwise gays wouldn't be in the minority...duh".

It is just the way you are, if you are gay, you are gay, what can you do about it? It doesn't make you dangerous, the people I know are gentler than any other person I have met. As for the whole "normal" blurb you spilled out... I am an anglo asian in a purely Scottish part of town... so I am abnormal too then (not that I really see that as a bad thing)! May I remind you that it wasn't long ago when Christians were condeming people like me for having brown skin, the colour of sin isn't it - I better go and bleech myself before you start on that! But seriously, talk about a repeat of history! What will it be next century I wonder?
I do appreciate that some gays do parade about their sexuality, and I don't like it either, it is an unfair representation of all the others. That is a perversion, flaunting anything is a perversion, but a private, and loving relationship between anyone is NOT A PERVERSION!!!

Eideard
"you can tell me something..what do I call god..just god...or does he have a name?"

Well I call God, God - preferably the first letter of his name beginning with a capital (just to show some respect). I hope that helps you on your way - always good to start with getting the name right.

Eideard: //Normal..,usual , regular, typical, free from physical disorder.//

Being gay is certainly usual (Commonly encountered, experienced, or observed): quite regular (customary, usual, or normal): and certainly typical (Exhibiting the qualities, traits, or characteristics that identify a kind, class, group, or category). Gay people are as free from physical disorders as straight people are.

Therefore, being gay is normal. By your own dictionary definition.

Jane

You can twist it any way you like..but the majority is normal..the norm...and as the majority of people are not gay ..then you cant define them as normal....anyway...enjoy your evening..im going out as I normally do...oops

Well said Jane, but some people just never get it! Ignorance is just too much for some people to overcome!

Tobias

IM back...and I agree with you about ignorance..I asked you if you knew Gods name...But I guess you are just ignorant of it>>I will ask someone who is not so

Out of all the religious books, why did the Gay police choose only the bible to represent religion as an excuse for hate crimes...now they want to remove Christian teachings from the jails, teach toddlers about the gay lifestyle, why would anyone in their right mind, be teaching a 3 year about sex to begin with? Females do molest children, that was silly to suggest only males do...if the Firemen did not feel at ease with participating in the Gay Parade, they should have requested and sent Gay Firemen.....I don't think any work place should force a person into a situation they do not feel secure in....they were not there to put out a fire, so it is silly to suggest they were not doing their jobs....If the Fire Chief felt it was so important to set up a table under a rainbow flag, he asked for volunteers who did feel ok with doing it....what is wrong with parents wanting to protect their children from being taught Sex at school in the early toddler classes, that is just a sick mind at work.....Gays don't BREED as they call us that are in Hetorsexual relatioships do, so why are they so concerned with teaching the youngins about their sexual practises if not for any other reason than to try to lure the innocents into their beds......

Right on, Hazel. Finally someone else with some backbone. The gays are poking the sleeping giant. We need to step up and protect our children. Time to drive the gays back into the closet. Homosexuals should keep their practices to themselves and stop trying to make a perversion appear to be normal. There are a few anti-gays who will always be miltant, as there are gays who are outrageously militant, too. But the very vast majority of us will let the gays be - when they stop pushing their agenda on us and our children. It's just that simple. You've gone too far!!

Hazel & Shaw

Still preaching hate and intolerance I see........... lets hope none of your children turn out to be gay when they grow up ........... what would you do when they are beaten up because of it ........ actually with your attitudes they would probably get kicked out on the street to fend for themselves anyway!!

Before you start ranting back ............ I too have a child and no I do not him taught about sex at a young age.......... that goes for straight sex as well. However, I do not want him to grow up to be as intolerant of others as some of the posters on here.

I thought Fire Prevention education was the job of firefighters............ gay or otherwise.

Eideard

Well, Jehovah and Yarwait are two other names that God goes by. But if that is what God is all about to you, a name - you have problems mate!

Hazel
Gay people want people to be educated about homosexulaity in school, not for sexual purposes (please, people get this filth out of your heads!), but so that children that are starting the difficult journey of puberty, whom are growing up with these problems do not suffer, struggling with accepting themselves. It is also there for their fellow peers to understand what they are going through, and not to abuse them. As for the comment about men molesting - I said it was mostly men, I know women do it too! If it sounded irrational to you, well what you said about teaching students about homosexuality during sex ed sounds a bit over the top. "so concerned with teaching the youngins about their sexual practises if not for any other reason than to try to lure the innocents into their beds......" When I was taught sex ed, I don't remember gays hanging around with beds ready to go. Nonsence! I feel that in classes, there is some unnecessary detail given, like how to put on a condom. Sex is something you worry about after marrage! Condoms should not be necessary in a non perverted relationship (that goes for straight and gay).I would like to feel that there is some emotional support given to our LGBT brothers and sisters who are going through a hard time. It is in the growing up years, you are at your most vulnerable - if you are different, like LGBT, you are more likely to be bullied, self harm, attempt suicide even. There could be children reading all of this right now, looking for some kind of self acceptance becuase they are gay, they would be mortified! If you had a child, that was growing up with this, what would you do? Do you think they could even tell you? They would probably just carry the burden of it alone until it gets too much!

Shaw

Why dont you just get back into your closet, and shut the door.
Thak you!

Post 155 Hazel said

"so concerned with teaching the youngins about their sexual practises if not for any other reason than to try to lure the innocents into their beds......"

Lady you have some serious problems ........ get some therapy. If what you think is true don't send your kids to school, lock them up in their bedroom. Oh wait, isn't most sexual abuse committed within the family?

Oh and guess what folks, I'm not gay either (ask my wife if you don't believe me) but some of you lot are sick puppies!!

Eideard: //You can twist it any way you like..but the majority is normal..the norm...and as the majority of people are not gay ..then you cant define them as normal....//

The majority of people are right-handed. Does that mean you define left-handed people as "not normal"?

The majority of people in Scotland are white. Does that mean you define people who aren't white as "not normal"?

The majority of people in Scotland don't go to church regularly or at all. Does that mean that regular churchgoers are... "not normal"?

Of course not. Normal doesn't mean "does only what the majority does". Normal means, as you said yourself, usual, regular, typical, free from physical disorder. So, being gay is normal.

I feel sure all "gays" are not paedophiles.
However, I can recall that in my first place of employment in Dundee,in the late 1950's all we young boys,around 16 years old, got talking during our break and we found that every single one of us had been "approached" by a man at sometime in our childhood . In many cases, it turned out - by the description and style of dress - black Homburg hat, black melton overcoat , fat, pasty face , to be the same man who "haunted" areas where children might be alone ! They/he always started off politely asking which school we attended, but they soon started talking sex- and quite honestly,in those days we knew nothing about sex or homosexuality or paedophillia,and were just embarrasssed !
We automatically dubbed him/them as "queers !"
Were they -as we had been quite young at the time -paedophiles , or were they just ordinary, normal homosexuals looking for easy conquests ?

Lennox#101
You should be grateful that the wee "puce-faced nonentity " shoved you over - he was probably finding some way of introducing himself as he fancied you - even if you are 80 !
As for his foul language - well as Kim says in Kipling's book of that name - "That is the beginning of love-talk where I come from !"
You should really have kissed him - not the "Glesca' kiss" I hasten to say , and that would have diffused the situation , and no risk of you ending up in the "Bangkok Hilton" with all the" lady-boys !"
Come over to Sydney mate - see the Gay Parade with all the wonderful costumes(or some with very little costumes) and enjoy life with the Gay community -can even arrange an Aids Free Zone for you matey !

Wulllie..Bob...Tam....I mean Tobias

You see Tobias if you dont use a person..or God's proper name..as given...then how will god know you address him...and there will be confusion..like you are going through now
You call Me by my name..Eideard..but you do not give god the same distinction...

As to minorities blacks and Asians etc are racial minorities..where being gay is simply a perversion...which can and will be forgiven if the person stops doing it (just like all sins)
I wonder exactly why you read the bible tobias...and which of Gods laws you actually follow or agree with (If any)..or do you just take it upon yourself to say ..i like this one...hmmm...dont like this one....I guess that would then make you...GOD
God be with you Tobias...if you ever realise which god it is that you are actually following.

Jane

It was good to have a little verbal sparring with you...But ive said what i said...and dont change my views.
Unlike Tobias you at least seem to have an intelligent point to offer
Have a good weekend

Eideard

You are blind in this matter. God knows when I am addressing him, because he knows everything. Remember??!!! God taught me to be loving to all man, not going around condeming society like you have been - by the way, you are commiting a sin by this, stop, ask for forgiveness and STOP doing it! That is what I do. Jesus taught us through love all the lessons we need to know, please try and follow in his footsteps. You obviously are not a practicing Christian - because when you are, you learn a lesson of humility! You are not better than a homosexual, straight, white, coloured, etc, we are all equal...funny enough! And the whole name thing you were twitering on about - GET REAL!!! That was just an aimless arguement to show some spite wasn't it! Well you are a sick and perverted representation of what Christianity is.

I,m not a Church goer, but i think Jenny has selective thinking to affirm her views. I seem to remember the Bible saying that God "Nuked" Sodom and Gom Cities!!!! (Were a constant Gay Pride Carnival was held!). I also remember Jesus telling a Prostitute to "Go and Sin no more!!" Not "I tolerate your personal lifestyle!!!!"

In Plymouth the Royal Navy gave a Satanist on board ship equal rights as a Christian (under there "Diversity rules"), Jesus did not say TOLERATE Sin. : - )

I will always affirm that homosexuality is a perversion. But I've never hated, feared or belittled a gay person, any more than I have done the same toward a crippled or mentally handicapped person. I believe that gay militant activisim is asking for the backlash it is receives now.

---well 'Shaw' you say tomato I don't get to say anything because my jaw's wided shut due to someone like you shatering it into jigsaw peices.

dear, dear Dave: as Deric Jarman (the great British Queer film maker) pointed out Sodom was destroyed for not offering hospitality to angles and he's right. Before homosexuality bacame a state of being (to paraphrase Foucault) in the 19th centery Sodom was not represented as a punishment for sexual devience.

Read the history of the church you are suposed to be a part of before opening your mouth.

Dear Elizabeth.

Sorry can't follow your advice, i need my mouth open to eat, breath and devour, (especially as i do not attend any church or Religious group), the Philosophy i adhere to is called "The Righteous Tabernacle of Common Sense"!!!

Never heard of any famous Films by Britains greatest film maker Deric Jarman!!! (What are they called?), i liked "Brazil" by Terry Gilliam (there was an Angel in that!). Never read the Bible section about Sodom City, i seem to remember it from an old black and white movie from Hollywood, i was 12 at the time and i was shocked to see men with eye shadow and their loving relationship with a Goat!!!( i bow to your superior knowledge on this, though i don't fancy visiting a town called SODOM!!!

I socialise and work with homersexuals, who are a mellow but an embarrassing group of people, as i am very attractive to them, due to unfortunately being a very Sexy man!!! (Oh to be born "plug ugly!!!").

The only axe i have to grind is with the "Gay Mafia" who want to line us all up against the wall to machine gun us with their Politically Correct mind control techniques. I was brought up to be an Athiest, my Mother was a Pagan, but like Jesus, i consider the goodness of a society is by how it treats its Children, two men marrying each other will make the Children cry!

We are not all equal, as the marxists like to chant! (thats why we have Human Resources departments!). We should not tolerate bad behavior in any group. We must be intolerant of bad behaviour!! I hope the Glasgow Firemen are not sacked for refusing to give out leaflets on a "Sad Pride" March. There are many good causes in life to support, i don't think Buggery is one of them!!! I must be abnormal, time for the Diversity officers to throw me to the Sodomites!!!

Dear Elizabeth.

Sadly i do not own a Bible (my Mother set fire to it while dancing around the Pentangle.

But i have just looked online at the Bible, and have discovered you are WRONG!!

Here is bit of it: Genesis 18
(God and the angels were leaving Abraham's tent and were traveling to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. These two cities were the home of many, many bad and wicked people. God decided to tell Abraham that they planned to destroy the two cities.) and why?

(the men of Sodom came to Lot's house. They demanded that Lot send the visitors outside. The men of Sodom wanted to have sex with them. Lot begged the men not to behave that way).

5] And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

Elizabeth can i open my mouth now? (Its Tea-Time!). : - )

Err where do you stop! Special laws for cyclists, large people,skinny people blah blah. I have heard various verbal insults levelled at numerous diferent persons for different reasons ( few of them justied i might add) Surely the whole community needs protected from the moronic few irrelevent of motivation. Penalties need to be increased and Political correctness and specialist treatment done away with no matter how desired by pressure groups. It hurts a big burly st8 dude to be slagged of just as much as anyone else I am sure.

Nancy [102] Possibly you would like to re-read my post no. 91...
I clearly stated I am Scottish. So your sad attempt at Xenophobia is somewhat misplaced.
I was born in Scotland and for the most part educated in Scotland though I have travelled and lived all over the world for your information - I rather expect a darn sight more than you.
I live and work in Dublin. [hence 'Location']
And for the record with the exception of recent civil union and adoption legilation Ireland is actually a lot more tolerant than Scotland, both in legal structure and social behaviour.
I am not saying that Ireland is free of homophobia or homophobic attacks. What I am saying is the Ireland was until recently unrivaled in Europe in terms of protection and support from the State.
With respect to not being missed in Scotland - I really don't think that you are respresentative of the whole nation and therefore your purile comment is actually a nonsense. Certainly I won't miss people like you if you are indeed representative of today's Scotland. though I expect my family and friends and everyone they know may have quarrel with you painting them as black as you paint yourself.