Muslim people are not the only ones who are concerned about British policies that oppress others. I am not Muslim, but I am concerned about oppressive British policies and I don't support terrorism, but could I then be considered a supporter of 7/7 attacks by Mr Blair? I am shocked at Mr Blair's attacks on Muslim yesterday, as the large majority of Muslims appear to be saying that they are against terrorism. I think his comments are racist as he demonstrates little appreciation for the views of an ethnic minority, Muslim people in Britain. What are white British people going to do in their communities about the high percentage of crime against Asian people? Will white ‘moderates’ Britain be taking control of their criminals?

Well done Tony now that you seem to be standing up to the interior threat of terrorism,and asking the muslims to actually take ACCOUNT OF THEIR OWN ACTIONS but you must also bare in mind it is not just the muslims that are the threat it can be anyone. It isthe usual story though it though it is the MINORITY that causes the trouble not the majority. But a start is a start next let us see a crack down on the Immigration and show the world thar Britain is not a soft touch for those who come in and take over all our system.

Blair says that 'we' are not having a debate of a fundamental enough nature within the Islamic community about extremism. I love that 'we' bit!

Yet in the wake of 9/11, his Ministers were advised never to use the term "Islamist extremist", because it would give offence. He also received warm praise from the Muslim Council of Britain in September 2001 for saying 9/11 was not the work of "Islamic terrorists" or "Muslim terrorists", but the work of "terrorists pure and simple". Responding to the PM's remarks, then MCB Secretary General Yousuf Bhailok said Mr Blair had been "most reassuring in quite clearly distinguishing between Islam and terrorists"

No doubt sharply jolted into reality by the events of 7/7, the PM has now changed his mind. In March he said that to say an Islamic extremist’s religion was irrelevant was “both completely to misunderstand his motive and to refuse to face up to the strain of extremism within his religion that has given rise to it.”

After 9/11, the PM had more than four years to engage in his robust debate with Muslims before the London bombs, but clearly did more to discourage it than have it. His muddle has not been so much about terrorism, but about not offending Muslims.

But he has a right cheek blaming them for not taking terrorism seriously, when it seems he did much to enourage them that terrorism wasn't a Muslim problem.

I concur with Pauline. People are aware of the laws and mores of a society before they immigrate to that society; otherwise, how would they choose a country of destination?

Beyond Muslims, every group who immigrate from round the world are allowed to retain their culture and build their communities and their places of worship. It's not unreasonable for a host country to expect--in exchange for its hospitality--that we shall not be subjected to random acts of terror. Those who commit (or conspire to commit) such acts should be deported immediately, regardless of the length of time they've lived in the United Kingdom. This isn't "racism" at all: it's national security from those who are deranged enough to seek to effect acts of massive homicide on our soil.

Where truly we've gone wrong is with our immigration screening. Travelling abroad, I receive apologies from people in other countries for some of the people we immigrate, and it has nothing to do with race: I'm told oft that we immigrate those who are considered miscreants and are in trouble with the laws of their own lands; apparently, those who do not fit this profile have no intent to emigrate anywhere.

One would imagine there must be a way to screen for such people; nonetheless, it would seem--as long as they're willing to work for a meagre wage in our land--that our wealthiest shall be happy to bring them hither and replace forthwith what workers we have in our employ at the time, clearly for the sake of the profits they save on reduced labour costs. Now, we're seeing the fruits of such policies, and the true questions which arise are: "how do we fix the problems?" and, "do we have truly the power to fix them, or does this power lie solely with the wealthy corporations who seem certainly to control the actions our govenrments?"

any person who wishes ill on the people of Britain must be permanently ejected from this country

Tony Blair is right to say that all good citizens must stand against terrorism. However, he must encourage the muslims in Britain to find a way to express and debate their anger, their frustration and their hopes. Its all right to say the actions on 7/7 were wrong but Tony Blair is fighting the wrong war. His war is illegal and one has to ask is whether he is just as wrong (legally) as the 7/7 terrorists.

His wife once expressed sympathy for the Palestinian cause and understood why a people with no hope could give their lives for a cause. Tony Blair is intelligent, his wife is intelligent between them they need to get their act together.

The muslims have issues. The Labour Party receive considerable support from the muslim community. If the Labour Party is the main political party for muslims in the UK then they need to start representing them and not George Bush.

Duncan,
I have been to most Muslim countries working over the last 20 years, and they are places that they created, you cannot mix religion and politics, it in history has never worked, and today it still wont work,if you realy understood the problem you would first read the Koran and find out that it IS the terriosts handbook. In your view it is OK to marry 20 plus girls the youngest being 8 years old (Mohammed) read a little of the founding fathers exploites before you pass comment on Tony Blair

Security agencies are now more concerned with "resident" potential terrorists than with those terrorists possibly travelling to the UK for specific terrorist acts or actions.
I agree with David; first, get immigration under proper control, secondly, those illegals already here to be brought under proper control and expelled wherever appropriate. Policies against any persons supporting terrorism must support actions which are swift and tough. Unfortunately the politicians have it all wrong and the police seem terribly confused. Everyone is under surveillance hoping to identify the few. Laws are changed or modified but poorly enforced e.g. Maya Evans arrested at the Cenotaph for reading out loud the names of the then 97 British soldiers killed in Iraq. Seventy policemen dismatling the placards of Brian Haw in Parliment Square. Etc. The politicians are letting down the Public in a shameful way, even discounting that most are surely inept.

Why cant Tony Blair stand up for british principles and do the sameas the Australian goverment is doing telling the muslins that while they are welcome they have to follow the rules of the country or they will be deported back to where they came from.He is the only head of state that has come out and said that if they they want to live under muslin law then stay there, If only Harper and Bush had some guts to come out say that on this side of the ocean maybe we could go back to being friendly people again.

BRITISH Christians are not doing enough to confront the radical beliefs that inspire terrorism, (Tony Blair said yesterday), rejecting claims his government believed in "moderate" invasion of sovereign Islamic states.

Duncan,
Dearie me,Rant,ehhhmmmmmmm no,Sorry,that wasn't a rant,If I'd wanted to rant and rave then my typed words would of been a lot less diplomatic and it wasn't a diatribe against all muslims. I'm sure,infact I'd probably be correct in saying that many muslims do brilliant work in our hospitals,businesses & industries. My small article is about those who don't want to integrate into our culture and society and wish to remain in a state of backwardness and ignorance and wish our country harm because they can't see fit to enjoy freedom which sharia law doesnt allow.

Having worked and lived in muslim countries for a number of years, I can see the difference between those who tolerate the social and religeous differences between us and those who hate Westerners with a passion regardless of which country we come from.

Please do not patronise me with quote this and quote that. I have had first hand experience and have met muslims from various countries who would take great pleasure in seeing the West become one vast Islamic Republic. I'm sure other readers or visitors to this forum who have lived and worked in M E countries would probably have had the some of the same.

13% IS 13% and thats 13% too many,my arguement isn't over those muslims who wish to integrate and enjoy life in British society,it's against those who wish us harm and would like to change our way of life. If they don't like the UK they have the freedom to leave,it's that simple,they have the choice of living unhappily in the UK under a law system that they abhor or going to a muslim country and living under sharia law which they prefer. BUT they do it without turning buses and trains into mobile firework displays for their sadistic pleasure.

I see the person who wrote comment 15 wasn't entirely enamoured with one of the M E countries. Makes you wonder why.

I didn't think Abu Hamza was a member of the MC of GB

I agree that religion and politics don't mix well but there are many, many different interpretations of the Koran - not one.

Al Qa'ida's version of the Koran is shared by no other Muslims.

I have no opinion on polygamy one way or the other.

Of course I don't believe that its right for children to be married to adults - but Mohammed's marriages were political alliances.

It was no more uncommon for children to be married to adults as part of an alliance among Medieval European christian nobles than it was among Muslims.

Nor is there anything in the Koran which says marrying children to adults is right or an Islamic practice.

thank you for the comment Mr. Duncan but with your sound bites we would never agree,the people yes but the people with there religion big big big problems for the whole world,
IGNORANCE IS BLISS, DONT WAKE IT UP!

I'm glad you're now making a distinction between Muslims who want democracy and those who don't Ron - you made no such distinction in your first post in which you referred only to 'they' , which, in the context , could only be taken by anyone reading it as 'all Muslims'.

13% of British Muslims seeing the July 7th bombers as martyrs is still far outweighed by the 87% who saw them as terrorists.

In a democracy Muslims have the same right as anyone else - agnostic, Christian or whatever religion - to criticise their government's policies and its foreign policies. Most of them make the same criticisms that many non-Muslims (such as myself) are making.

As for those Muslims who advocate a global 'caliphate' I disagree entirely with them as much as you do - and i've met several - but as far as i'm concerned unless they advocate violence (as Hamza did) they have a right to express their views however much I (and the majority) may disagree with them - otherwise we wouldnt be much of a democracy any more.

In short i don't accept the 'shut up or leave this country' argument - i heard it long before September 11th and it wasnt always Muslims who were the people being told it - anyone criticising the government or its policies was frequently told 'If you don't like this country you can leave'. That's not democracy.

When are all you "do-gooders" going to realise that the time for talking will end soon. Apart from the fact that we have Iran with its Nuclear Enrichment and the want to eradicate Israel. Al-Quaida and its psychopaths, Iraqi's versus Iraqi's, and Afghanistan protecting their drug crops...........Palestinan mothers happily sending their sons into suicide bombing missions.Now we have North Korea firing missiles.............. Diplomacy and christianity dont seem to be getting very far down that road to peace.........why> They are not interested

Duncan Post 26

Let's not forget that the moderate Muslims at the MCB were in favour of curbing free expression in a democracy through the incitement to religious hatred bill. To their credit, the Muslim Parliament and the Muslim Forum stood with the National Secular Society, the Christian Institute and the Evangelical Alliance in opposing it. I recall an MCB spokesman saying that the bill would, if passed, stop people referring to "Islamic terrorists"!

Alistair i accept that - but were they any more in favour of the religious hatred bill than many Christian groups? What i object to is the idea (not from you but from some of the other posters) that Muslims are all the same - all 'them' - rather than them being other human beings most of whom are as against terrorism as we are.

Mairi I'm not a Christian. Nor was I aware that North Korea was a Muslim country. I think they'll be very surprised to learn that they're Muslims.

They've fired missiles before, most of their missiles didnt even reach the western coast of Japan this time and their motive is not to start a war but to try to get foreign aid concessions from the US.

I have no time from the Iranian or North Korean governments but the idea that either is seeking nuclear war is laughable.

As for Afghans growing heroin poppies it is the only crop they have that will grow in a country that is largely desert and had its irrigation system destroyed by decades of occupation by other countries and civil wars.

Do you really expect a whole country to watch their children starve to death with no income to buy food for our benefit? Would you watch your children starve to death or grow poppies if that was your choice?

If we really want to end heroin production in Afghanistan we need to provide massive foreign aid to help them develop new crops and industries - something we havent done so far - bombing and military offensives won't solve the problem.

I always have a good laugh when someone like you calls me a 'do gooder' as if you're some kind of a hard headed realist - you don't understand the problems you're dealing with and you don't seem to want to find out more about them. You just want to believe that everything is the fault of 'the Muslims' and 'the foreigners' as if they were all a bunch of clones.

I have read an assortment of comments here today with regards to Muslims in the UK. I do not think the 13% number is correct as that would give us 150-thousand extremists in the UK.
From my interactions with the muslim community in both Britain and Scotland their level of intolerance is much greater about views that a handful of muslim shares than we are being led to believe. First of all why are the mojority of muslims beings cowed into abiding by the law when many MUSLIMS felt like kicking a handful out of the UK.
I have had the pleasure of meeting many many people of all different faiths both in the UK and abroad including many muslim countries. Ladies and gentlemen so far I have not been shot, stabbed or harmed in anyway. I recently joined both muslims and hindu groups for their respective religious celebrations. The muslims I was invited to part take in their celebration of Eid which marked the end of ramadan- 30 days of fasting. The hindu's I joined to celebrate the festival of light.
I am very happy to say that I was not the only guest invited to the respective celebrations but so were several MP's and other public figures.
I have made learning a lifelong journey and yes not only have I studied the Holy Bible, but also the Holy Quran, Sharia Laws of Islam that I had the peasure of studying, The Tora, The Bhagvat Gita and Ramayan - both Hindu scriptures and the basis for Budha's philosophy also plus Scientology. I have followed my muslim friend's father's philosophy that to understand thy neighbour we should understand their religion. One of the gents here said that to own a bible in a muslim country is punishable by death - that is false and misleading. My first bible was given to me by a muslim in a muslim land and as I travelled out with it in my briefcase and it was looked at with a smile by the customs agent.
As for Christians - there are Christians living and working in Saudi Arabia, There is a minority population in Iraq

Right so your basic argument is that all Muslims are potential terrorists because the Koran tells them to be - and your evidence is that Mohammed was a polygamist and married children (in the 6th century AD).

How your 'evidence' proves your case (or has any relation to it) I'm not quite sure.

Perhaps you could explain?

Also by your logic Christians are all potential terrorists because medieval Christian rulers and nobles married children all the time as part of alliances.

Then you go on to ignore the argument and try to side-track it with sound bites 'like 'ignorance is bliss'.

So after having actually dealt with your arguments here's a sound bite of my own.

Well done Alan - keep smoking there in Hamburg - i hear its legal in the cafes there and its obviously done its job.

The reason I asked who fired the first shot in Iraq is because we in the west keeps asking why are people intolerant of us. Yet our leaders were pompous enough to fabricate lies and invade a sovereign country.
The atrocities committed in Iraq is more recent and it's now coming to light - how many Brit and US soldiers have been charged with several crimes including murder.
Violence breeds Violence.
We can't solve anything over the barrel of a gun - has never worked. Is Barbarism Ancient? Or are we sending our fighting men and women into situations that is turning them into barbaric creatures and the sympathises of those suffered by our troops actions resulting in a pool of recruits for Al-Qaeda. We really do need to address these root problems and the larger problem will be eliminated.
We have leaders who are liars in the west and especially in the UK and USA and are doing things in a dictatorial manner and leading us all down a dark alley.
Ponder one little fact - Saddam was barbaric but he was Iraq's. If the people of Iraq wanted him out it was their responsibility to act as such. He is a monster created by the west - please do not forget that. Bin Ladin, Zarqawi and several cohorts including Mullah Omar was trained by the CIA to fight the Russian occupation but left unsupervised and completely ignored after they forced the Russians out. They were also left with a vast cache of arms. These are not politicians and many do not know to read or write as a fact is that one of the highest rate of illeteracy is in Africa and the middle east. The same breading grounds for Al-qaeda.
Funny thing is that when Saddam was in power Zarqawi lived in Baghdad and behaved like a good little boy. If he had dare tp step out of line with Saddam he would have been 6 feet under a long time ago. Another to remember is that regardless of who he was - Saddam was intolerant with terrorists. They could never have found a better home than with him being out

Totally agree with comments 4,5 and 9.

Comment 10. Like Alan (comment 12) I have also spent a lot of time in muslim countries and they are not as cosmopolitan and forward thinking as they and some of our news channels would like us to think. Very few churches,in some muslim countries there are no churches at all,owning a bible is a far worse offence than you might think,in certain countries it's a beheading offence.
If life is so bad in their countries then why try and change ours into the cesspool of violence,misery,poverty and religeous extremism that they have escaped from. The UK is a democratic country who's laws are Parliamentary based, not on the law of Sharia, I'm sure they are well aware of this before they emigrate here. If they do not want to live in our country,or they do not like living in a country that is democratic,whose population is mostly christian,(practicing or not) then they have the freedom to exercise their rights and buy a one way ticket to a muslim country in which they think they will be happy living in. When they start blowing up busses and trains they have forfeited their right to live in the UK and must be deported back to their country of origin.
Maybe not all muslims are for Al Qaeda but they weren't exactly quick off the mark in telling Abu Hamza and that other extreme Islamic zealout who has since been deported to be quiet and try to live in harmony with the rest of Britain.

The world's most peace loving and tolerant religeon. Nope,sorry,no way. Check out the link below.
I for one hope that the UK never becomes the Islamic Republic that some muslims sincerely hope happens. If they don't like it then they have the freedom to leave. End of story.

Report Unsuitable

Ron - how many British Muslims approved of the July 7th bombings - according to the last poll 13% - 87% condemned them as terrorists.

Many British Muslims were born here or converted to Islam.

Most of those who are immigrants left to get away from the dictatorship you're condemning.

Could you please quote me the Muslim Council of Great Britain's demand for Sharia law to be implemented in Britain and provide a link to it ? Or the statement where they said they backed the July 7th bombings ?

No - you can't - because neither they nor any other mainstream British Muslim group has EVER approved of or supported terrorism nor have they EVER demanded Islamic law be implemented in Britain.

So I'm afraid you're ranting away in a diatribe against all Muslims which has little connection with reality.

"Maybe not all muslims are for Al Qaeda but they weren't exactly quick off the mark in telling Abu Hamza and that other extreme Islamic zealout who has since been deported to be quiet and try to live in harmony with the rest of Britain. "

Ron, neither were the rest of us. Remember we now know MI5 told Hamza he could preach what he liked, just as long as the UK stayed free from deeds of Islamic terrorism. Remember too Blair's Government also spent £100k on police resources to let Hamza preach on the Finsbury Park pavement after he'd been kicked out the mosque by that most rugged and fearless British institution - the Charities Commission!

In fact, Finsbury Park mosque elders approached the polis several times about Hamza and were always told it was their problem and not one in which the polis could intervene.

We are paying the penalty for Blair and many others (Clarke, Blunkett, to name but two) tippy-toeing around Muslim sensitivities all the time, when in fact a lot of ordinary Muslims would rather Plod had felt Hamza's collar a long long time before they did.

Hamza hasn't been deported, as far as I am aware. We taxpayers are still paying for him in a British jail, aren't we?

And by the way, if Muslim leaders haven't done enough to deal with the extremists in their midst, is Sir Iqbal Sacranie going to hand his knighthood back? Given Blair's coments, this now is shown in its true light - a knighthood used to buy peace and influence - and votes - with the Muslim community

We wake up this morning to see video on CNN showing rampaging Muslims around the world. In Europe, the Middle East, the Pacific Rim ... Muslim Mobs spreading mayhem. It seems that these mighty mad Muslims are rioting and firing their ever-present AK-47s into the air because of cartoons. Yup ... this latest epidemic of Muslim outrage comes to us because some newspapers in Norway and Denmark published some cartoons depicting Mohammed.Muslim outrage huh. OK ... let's do a little historical review. Just some lowlights:· Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage. · Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage. · Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage. · Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage. · Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage. · A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage. · Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage. · Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage. · Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage. · Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage. · Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage. · Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage. · Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage · Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage. · Muslims

I know and understand that these bloodthirsty murderers do not represent the majority of the world's Muslims. When, though, do they become outraged? When do they take to the streets to express their outrage at the radicals who are making their religion the object of worldwide hatred and ridicule? Islamic writer Salman Rushdie wrote of these silent Muslims in a New York Times article three years ago. "As their ancient, deeply civilized culture of love, art and philosophical reflection is hijacked by paranoiacs, racists, liars, male supremacists, tyrants, fanatics and violence junkies, why are they not screaming?" Indeed. Why not?

I must thank Mike for his reply and I feel glad to realise that I am not alone in observing all the atrocities which are not repudiated by the majority of the "peaceful" Muslims. Quite frankly, for those do not like the west and westerners............go and try your hand at living in Iraq, Iran or Afganistan and then come back and tell me that you really had a bad life here in the debauched west.

the unfinished sentence should read 'That's why we got a flood of Albanians, Bosnians and other refugees when Yugoslavia began its civil war and again during the Kosovo war'

First Blair is completely right on one thing - Al Qa'ida is an ideology more than an organisation - one that says it's justified to kill innocent people as long as they're not Muslims in order to get revenge for attacks on Muslims.

This belief is not only wrong - it goes against every single branch of the Islam it claims to be defending - Sunni, Shia, Salafis, Wahabbis all believe targeting non-combatants is against Islam.

Where Blair is completely wrong is in asking Muslims to accept that they have no legitimate grievances.

I'm an agnostic but I, and many other people of all religions and none, can see that Muslims have very obvious grievances. To claim that Israel is and has been committing war crimes against Palestinians is not a false grievance but one documented by reports from Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and BT'Selem over and over again.

Similarly sanctions on Iraq for over a decade , wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and offensives and air strikes took place or are still taking place now and kill the innocent indiscriminately along with the guilty because that is the nature of war and blanket economic sanctions.

There is no justification for continuing these policies - they take the lives of innocent people , waste the lives of our soldiers and create new terrorists by creating a desire for revenge.

Admitting that these are real grievances and ending them is the first step on the road to defeating Al Qa'ida by reducing its flow of supporters and recruits.

If we want to end their terrorism we have to end our use of methods which, to the survivors of our air strikes, offensives and sanctions (like the sanctions on the Palestinians) are terrorism too.

Lucy - I don't know who you talk to abroad but most of the immigrants we get in this country come from countries suffering extreme poverty, dictatorship or war (often a combination of the three).

As for them all being 'miscreants' who don't obey the

Business as usual, this "Religion of Peace" should stay home! Where ever they go they try to change the host country into the quagmire that they left behind. If the European imigrant arrived in one of these Muslim "paradises" and lived as they lived in Europe, they would not send you to jail they would kill you, cut off your hands or feet and as we can see on TV your head,if these "humans"? want to live in the Muslium Utopia, fine, stay at home, but dont come and try and create havoc in ours. They cannot even dress as we do, and for those that dont agree with me go wear a bikini in Iran, or try opening a Christian Church in any of these hell holes, enough,

Aye right Alan - so all Muslims are Al Qa'ida?

Sorry but that's just bigotry.

You sound like a 1930s anti-semite railing against the Jews destroying society.

Duncan, I am quite aware that N Korea is not Muslim, my point is this..........the majority of the world seems to be hell bent on destruction.....silent violence or bloody violence..........I dont sit back and do nothing but talk. Last week I was in Asda in the East end of London, I witnessed two Asian families having a physical fight and was told that this was a regular occurance.......Later, in the same supermarket, at the check out, one of two beautiful muslim boys called to me and waved his hand, I replied........he called to me and held out his hand........naturally, I took his hand. We were simply and innocently communicating. His mother, dressed from head to foot in Black, complete with the facial cover, removed the childs hand from mine, CLEANED it, and covered his hand with her own. The look of hatred in her eyes left me , firstly, angry then secondly, apprehensive, lastly, sad. What message was she sending to her child and to me. One of understanding? One of Compassion? Forget it............. Quoran translated means Peace.....and just for the chronicle....not only do I have a copy, I have read it and there is no justification in the Quoran, for the violence that is being acted out in the name of Islam. I have Muslim friends, none of which are remotely like the Muslims I have encounted in London...........so, perhaps, if you ventured south, you may just get your eyes opened a bit more. Yes, I agree that to talk (not at but with) is the better option but there are those who , not out of desperation, will not even entertain the idea. I only have to look at the two factions in Iraq and the last car bomb that went off in a market place and the body of a 4-6 year old boy, who was tortured before he was murdered to make me realise that talk was in short demand.

Mairi - I apologise for my rudeness before. While I disagree with some of what you say I was out of order.

I accept that there are plenty of people on both sides in each conflict who want to keep it going - and a minority who irrationally hate anyone not of their religion/nationality/race.

However most terrorist attacks are revenge for military attacks , which, unintentionally or not, usually end up killing as many or more civilians or combatants.

All that I'm arguing is that we are not in an inevitable conflict between Muslims and non-Muslims. Most Muslims and most non-Muslims want neither terrorism or war.

There are places in the world - the occupied territories, Pakistan , Iraq , Saudi Arabia where war or dictatorship has produced mass hatred and there are those who exploit it in the extremist madrasas - but neither war nor terrorism or inevitable - nor will war or military strikes ever end terrorism - they'll only create more.

Lucy - again - i apologise for my rudeness before.
However I still disagree.

Making entering this country without a visa and passport a crime is neither right nor does it offer us any greater safety.

Manpower and money should be focused on identifying criminals (including terrorists) and arresting and trying them - jailing them if they are found to be guilty of the crime they're suspected of.

It's a waste of that manpower and resources to arrest, hold in detention centres and deport thousands of people a year none of whom have committed any real crime and who have never threatened to.

John - there are as many different interpretations of the Koran as there are of the Bible. There is nothing in the Koran or inherent in Islam which makes terrorism or war inevitable or unavoidable.

Olalu - It's fair enough for Blair to see the government can't stop terrorism on its own.

He's wrong though to claim that Muslims have no genuine grievances and that his foreign policy - which, like the Iraq war, has produced a massive rise in terrorism and support for Al Qa'ida , is fine.

That's what people are taking issue with.

Blair tells British Muslims to reject terrorists' ideals
JAMES KIRKUP POLITICAL EDITOR
• Tony Blair believes British Muslims are not doing enough to tackle terrorism
• Polls suggest considerable Muslim sympathy for 7/7 bombers views
• Labour government accused of doing little to promote integration
I love Mr. Blair. There is a charismatic way he approaches the whole issue of terrorism. He does little but tries to punish the Sir. Ian Blair for the case that was the speed that was incorporated by the whole Police force including the Scotland Yard.
The shooting in the tube was no quick fix. The meeting with the Muslim leaders would help and can help. However, there are doubts in every body’s mind if Britain is as was. There are more terrors born and bred in UK’s soil them imported. These need flushing out first. Then we talk of calm water.
Mr. Blair, the whole idea of going to Afghanistan and Iraq was uninvited, why did you put your foot in this. Mr. Robin Cook was right. So were the comments of Magee Thatcher, Clinton, Crater and Madelyn Albright. You do not want me to believe that ALL THESE WERE WRONG AND YOU WERE RGHT more you admitted and Mr Straw admitted that there were mistakes made. Why do you keep on staying in the Arab land when they do not want you or the foreigners? You will have to leave one. Why not now before more blood is spilt on the foreign soil

Why do people think Mr. Blair has to do more than the rest of us in this onerous task of fighting muslims insurgencies, he has simply extended invitations to all and sundry that together we can at least prevail on muslims to change their belief especially killing of people under whatever guise.

Duncan (Glasgow): Let's not build a straw man fallacy here.

Firstly, I neither stated nor implied (above) that "all" immigrants were miscreants, nor did I suggest that we have no home-grown miscreants of our own, nor that we should make "immigration a crime" and close our borders.

Secondly, I said that SOME people I've met abroad have stated that the UK (and other countries, in fact) "often" immigrate those who were miscreants within those respective countries; therefore, does it not give one cause to think we should perhaps re-examine our immigration policies?

Thirdly, I most certainly did not suggest that those immigrating were from countries neither war-torn, nor oppressed, nor impoverished, but I'm happy you brought this point forward, since it relates to my original closing remarks above, which seem to have been a point surprisingly overlooked.

When we immigrate people, there seems an easy opportunity to exploit them at the lowest possible wages; sadly, this is also the case in North America, where I've spent much time over the past 20 years. Many new immigrants shall suffer poverty-line wages, because no matter how low a standard of living offered them, it's better than what they've had in their own countries; nonetheless, I don't think a host nation brings upon itself good-will in such a manner, and if one is silly enough to believe that the exploited shall never look round and have cause for resentment, then one is treading a very dangerous path. You can't invite a guest for supper, seat him on the floor to eat the scraps with the dog, and expect he'll thank you graciously for it. Exploitation breeds anger, and anger breeds violence. Isn't this precisely the root of the war in the Middle East? Centuries of exploitation and resentment? Isn't this an impetus for acts of terror? And, why do we focus on terrorism as if it were a "Muslim" thing exclusively? Have we not seen this sort

Coming in so late in this game, gives me the advantage. I hear all the drivel about Islam being whatever you want it to be. You all better wake up to the reality of Islam! Go buy a Q'ran, not some paperback version, buy the Q'ran that has the commentaries, the same one they use. Read it, study it! Then try to deny what the Q'ran teaches. Everything I've heard so far on this comment forum has been BS, Politically correct BS from either a right sided ideology or a left sided ideology. Islam is your worse nightmare people of the book!

Bulldog St Andrews, Try taking a bible into Saudi or Iran,not a good idea, the death sentence for that CRIME is not false or misleading,in certain circumstances that punishment will be carried out.
You may be right in the fact that we have politicians in our country who spout bare faced lies to us over the gogglebox,but Saddam was a liability and a murderous genocidal maniac long before he invaded Kuwait,he was that long before the West supplied him with weapons. We didn't make him what he was,he did that all by himself and he took great pleasure in it as did his wonderfull loving sons,Huday and Qusay. Get off your high horse about how we made him a lunatic,he was born that way,think he was about eight when he embarked on his way up the social ladder. Life in the M E is cheap,ever wondered how many unmarked graves are out in the empty quarter due to the fact that females are a burden on their families and aren't wanted.
It's always good to say in hindsight that if we hadn't done this or we hadn't done that things would be different. But in the West knowing what we know now,we wouldn't of condemned the Russians for invading Afghanistan,had we of known how ignorant and barbaric the taleban would be and to the degree of suffering that they would inflict on there own people,we wouldn't of stood by and said tsk,tsk,naughty Russians,how could they do such a thing,we would of gladly helped the Russians wipe the taleban off the face of this planet and supplied them with the right equipment to do it with, Maybe the Russian government knew more than they let on, and lets face it,we weren't the best of mates with them at that time,so why should they tell us in the West what the Islamic zealots were really like It just goes to show,how right they were and how wrong we were.
Bin Laden,Saddam Hussein,Ayotollah Khomeini, all the same whatever way you want to look at it. Murderous,barbaric,genocidal,intolerant,cowardly, merciless,tyranical and al

It wasn't just terrorists that Saddam didn't tolerate,it was anybody who could or would upset his despotic career up the presidential ladder. It would of put the mockers on his hedonistic lifestyle.

If god-for-bid (and thats an athiest talking) 9/11 or 7/7 ever happens again then I hope the politically correct brigade and the do-gooders crawl out from underneath their stones and have the guts and the cojones to maybe finally come out and say that they got it wrong. Lets get one thing clear,not all muslims are bad people,I'm sure they are quite happy to get on with life and take each day as it comes.

Luckily for me,I live in a democratic country where I can have my say and if people agree,fine,if not,thats fine too, I can live with that. However I won't be taking flying lessons and parking an airliner into a tall building or turning myself into a human Vesuvius just because they upset my sensitivity's or didn't agree with me.

Time for bed said Zebidy BOINGGGGGGGGGG

I agree with you Bulldog.

Most terrorist attacks are a response to other forms of violence - mostly military violence.

That does not make them justifiable - terrorism is entirely wrong and can never be justified - but it does mean that going to war usually increases terrorist attacks and support instead of reducing them.

The 13% figure was the proportion of British Muslims in the last poll that saw the July 7th bombers as 'martyrs' when given the choice between 'martyrs' or 'terrorists'.

I doubt that most of those 13% would actually carry out terrorist attacks themselves , just as most people in every system of belief tend to be observers with only a minority taking any action.

I don't know the poll's methodology so i don't know whether it represents the views of British Muslims as a whole accurately - it's the only figure we have to go on at the moment though.

It's worrying that that even that many would sympathise with the bombers but 87% - almost 9 in 10 British Muslims polled - considered them terrorists.

Duncan: please point out how you deduce the following from my two entries, and I'll happily retract:

"Making entering this country without a visa and passport a crime is neither right nor does it offer us any greater safety."

I said nothing about making entry into the UK without a Visa or a Passport a crime.

"It's a waste of that manpower and resources to arrest, hold in detention centres and deport thousands of people a year none of whom have committed any real crime and who have never threatened to."

I did not mention anything about arresting and deporting people who immigrate in this manner, or holding them in detention centres, since I didnt discuss this type of immigration at any point.

To clarify, what I've tried to say repeatedly is that we need to review the immigration policies IF there are (as some of my foreign contacts have advised) people immigrating to the UK whose tendency for civil obedience is highly questionable. I can't imagine it should be an easy task, but certainly resignation to the status quo isn't a solution builder, either.

Important word above: "IF".

Setting this aside, I remain firm that people who immigrate with the intent to cause acts of terror in this country should be found, charged, tried, and deported IF found to be guilty. I won't insist that such people exist, but I shan't agree that they don't exist, in light of last July, all of which relates back to the need to revise our immigration policies. I can't help but believe that there must be a way to ferret out these people before acts of terror are committed, on our own soil, by residents of the UK born within, or immigrated.

John, from Texas: what can I say? I imagine I'm a strong candidate for the left-sided politically-correct in your opinion, for which I'm ever so happy. I'm not certain you see yourself as a right-wing extremist, but I shan't imagine such a suggestion shall pose a problem

As to the "Bleeding Hearts" that say tha calling an spade a spade is not politically correct. Then I say that kow-towing to theose that want to change out langauage then Awa' an no haver in yer hat. That is what gets us in trouble wi' th 'ither fowk that canna stand to have ither fowk believe as they want and speak as they wnt. Then let them stay in their ain land an no bother ithers that want to live inpeace and pursue their ainlives.
They are the problem and no the solution....

Anne @ 45

"So lets forget about these stupid dates and pay attention to what we can do to help others, and that's NOT creating more paranoia"

I assume by stupid dates you mean 9/11 and 7/7 - very easy to forget them and call them stupid if you were not directly affected by them. Your lack of imagination and do gooder empathy with those you have cast as victims is deplorable. There are a lot of decent Muslims living in this world but they do not include those who incite racial/religious hatred, fly aircraft into buildings, strap bombs to their backs and blow up tube stations. Your sympathy and hackneyed words of peace would be better directed at the real victims here - the innocent ones who died in New York and London.

Back to what Tony Blair suggests....he IS 'nanny' of the 'nanny state'. and look at his face in this clip. Hold it up against him when he first took office....doesn't he look old and stressed. Taking too much responsibility for others, when he should be looking to himself for the answers. A very confused man, who has left his 'mark' on society, much confusion reigns amongst our public institutions and laws have been eroded. No wonder he looks so ill. Buddha once said that he wished never to become a polititian or a king in any of his lives. Mr Blair is evidence of what such positions can do to your youthful good looks and your health. He looks like a seriously stressed out man. Muslims and others are happy to live together, and racial and other tensions only come from the minds of those who create problems. If we believe someone is out to get us, then they will. If we decide to love them, then we will. Anger and greed are pacified by love and generosity. So lets forget about these stupid dates and pay attention to what we can do to help others, and that's NOT creating more paranoia. Half my family live in an Asian community and are completely happy there. I love to visit and feel completely at ease, and love the local restaurants and shops. We need to read more about Muslim culture and blief and learn to appreciate another facet of human experience, rather than dictating what they should do or misunderstanding, orrejecting. it is only through ignorance that we do these things. Love and peace to all.