Sorry, correct my post - I meant to say Scottish shirt in parts of Manchester. Need more coffee!!

To be fair Tam, we do make up a third of the Cabinet!

Just been reading the comments on Andy Murray's website. Some of them are absolutely disgracefull and equally as 'racist' as anything said about the English football team...just goes to show that ignorance and prejuduce is alive and well on both side of the border.

This is an English AND Scottish problem...let's have less of the blame dumped on us...we all need to accept responsibility no matter where in the UK we live...

Andrew Murray, like the Scottish Football team and any other Scottish sports men and women don't need English support.
Rest assured, however, when he is winning the English will be desperate to cling on to him as a great British hope.

I'm so glad i am down here and not having to put up with all the English commentators and their blatant bias. I am Scottish so why would i support England?? Are the English feeling insecure?? Andy is right to a certain degree. England has nothing to do with me, i was not born there and there culture is different. I don't really care if they win or not to be truthful as long as i can avoid listening to their relentless rubbish about being the best team in the world, they should check their facts out. There are a couple of South American sides who would argue about that.

Go Andrew ! Go Portugal ! At least over here in the USA I do not suffer the biast English commentary -Andrew is a proud Scot and we don't need the English support. I shout for any team agianst England. It's a pity the Aussie's did not play them...

IS ANYONE TIRED OF THIS DEBATE YET???

Myself like any other Scotsman would support the team england is playing against because of years of 1966 forced down our throats! I'm far from anti english but from John Motson to Badel and Skinner I had enough of 66 in my face every time england play be it a friendly or a world cup or whatever. These guys have got to stop living in the past and yeah ok they have won a world cup and well done but most of the anti english feeling comes from the media hype! Why dont they realise that there are better teams than them and some have even won a number of world cups! Ok they are better that Scotland but I was there in 99 when they last met and it was fantastic to beat them on there own ground. Bring back the home nations. Also come on Portugal...............

Just had a look at the sun web site and thought I'd copy and post this

Rooney, showing all the thirst for glory that saw us home in 1966, said: “I have already been kicked a few times in the tournament and I’m sure it will happen again on Saturday.

Why 66? I'm sure the Brazilian papers dont go on and on and on about there past glories

it is somehow unfunny that english tennis fans should be surprised or even shocked that a scot might not support their beloved football team. Such unpatriotic views should be covered in the anti-terror legislation and Murray and others like him locked up immediately.

I'm starting to get really worried about this racist nonsense between England and Scotland. There's always existed a big brother/little brother mentality, mainly perpretrated by the Scots, but with little malice intended.

However, I've been worried for some time that the English would take more notice, the lid would come off and the situation become dangerous. Every community in England has a Scottish presence and their welfare is seriously thretened if this is allowed to go any further.

The World Cup has acted as a catalyst and I seriously suggest that Scots in the media spotlight keep their thoughts to themselves and maintain the dignity of the Scottish people. If you don't support England, don't say so and don't give the press more ammunition to stir up the passions of the English masses. It can only end in tears.

I agree, guess the daily scum papers wont mention a thing about the sick postings, they are just in shock that a top sportsman has the audacity not to support their team, even though he is NOT English! They really need a reality check.

Anyone but Andy t-shirts...dam funny if you ask me! If you're gonna dish it out you better be able to take it...and i think the majority of Scots can take it. Of course english people are more than welcome to bask in Andy's reflected glory, and it is esspessially funny as tennis is as english as you can get but the only credible talent to come from the UK in years is Scottish!

Who else has there been Tim "the nowhere really man" Henman (more tabby than tiger), Greg "I'm really Canadian" Rusedski and Jerremy "who" Bates. All very amusing indeed.

Go on Andy son, you're still young just you go out there and enjoy your tennis. Good luck to you!

'Anyone but Andy t-shirts...dam funny if you ask me!'
Totally agree Allan. I really have to ask the question though. Why are so many English bothered whether Scottish people support the England team or not? To be quite honest if an Englishman said to me I am supporting Scotland I would be very tempted to say, bug**r off and find your own team matey!

Scott if an english person came to me and said i am or am not supporting scotland in whatever. I think my responce would be...couldn't give a monkeys mate! It's your choice it's not your country so do what you like. Just like me supporting Brasil in the world cup! (I know i am a glory hunter)

Of course the English can't see the utterly biased views of their commentators since they are no doubt patriotic. As they perhaps should be. As we Scots are. Scotland and England have separate FOOTBALL teams ... Our Tennis hopes are BRITISH. I am Scots first and British second. I expect English people to be English first and British second. So ... what's the problem.
As for the Dunblane comments ... these are sick individuals who are aso cowards!

Go Andy GO!!!

by the way ... I hate Tennis as well as football and golf and horse-racing and most other sports!

So there are small minded pillocks on both sides of the wall, its hardly a revelation, every nation has a surplus of idiots.

I think Andy Murray is big enough to deal with it.

Scott from Wellington wrote: "Why are so many English bothered whether Scottish people support the England team or not?"

Its the anything but England mentality that some English have a problem with. But most English, including myself dont expect any different and dont actually care one iota about it.

Iain from New Zealand wrote: "Rest assured, however, when he is winning the English will be desperate to cling on to him as a great British hope."

Oh the press will always promote him as a great British hope. But Britain to me is nothing more than an Island, and if Andy Murray wins Wimbledon, I would be happy for him, but beyond that it would about as much to me as Andy Roddick winning, personally I want Federer to win.

As for any of you stating that we think our football team is the best in the World, nothing could be further from the truth. We judge our team on its performance, and thus think its rubbish and under performing in relation to the calibre of players it has, and not even the strongest squad was picked.

Dont blame the English for biased commentators either, Scotland is a big enough country to sort out its own World Cup coverage, so its high time you got your own commentators, if you havent already, then its really not my problem, and I have no say in it.

Robbie from Edinburgh wrote:

"If you don't support England, don't say so and don't give the press more ammunition to stir up the passions of the English masses. It can only end in tears."

Theres nothing to be said that the English dont already know, and havent known for years, we would be surprised not to hear of it. Its true the WC is acting as a catalyst, but a week after England goes out, most of it would be forgotten anyway.

Comment 14 "Such unpatriotic views should be covered in the anti-terror legislation and Murray and others like him locked up immediately."

...an enlightened view point if ever there was one! Made me laugh! Do you work in comedy? Why don't you just round up some non-christians and burn them as witches while you are at it!! I haddn't realised we'd stepped back to the 13th century.

Here we go again, all stirred up by this 'newspaper', yesterday it could find nothing, knew it would not disappoint today. Looking forward to reading the same old stuff, no mention of Bannockburn but it's early yet. You reap what you sow. No one is blameless.

I am English living in Scotland and believe English first, British second, European third. I agree that it is an individual choice on who to support. What I don't like to hear about is incident like the man being dragged from his car and beaten up because he has an English flag on his car in Aberdeen, or the seven year old being hit on the head for wearing an England shirt in Edinburgh. When Scottish people in the media limelight make sweeping statements about supporting the opposing team to England it leaves a bad taste and seems to reinforce the anti-english feeling that exists.

As for supporting Murray I do so because it is nice to see a young man suceeding, however I also admire Federer for his outright skill.

The anti- Andy Murray t-shirts are as bad as the sweeping statements. Life is far better if people find positive reasons for doing/believing in something.

Andy Murray is entitled to support whoever the hell he wants in the WC - as is any other person. However, he will now probably learn to be more careful what he says to a voracious press - who are more than happy to twist the words of anyone to fit their own agenda. He is only 19 he has plenty of time to learn from this - I hear he now has red hot PR people - they will protect him.
Unfortunately, if the Wimbledon crowd (who are predominantly English) turn against him and cheer every point made by an opponent it could seriously affect his play. I hope that this will not happen as it will be a very sad day when tennis is brought down to the level of football.
As for the the football commentators when England is playing - who do you expect them to talk about - the opposition all the time? The press, here, are very critical of the England team - when they lose - it is the English press who will be down on them like vultures.

Good Luck to you, Andy - don't let the b*****ds grind you down

I think its the media more than the man in the street that gives the impression of the arrogant English. A good example of this was when Wayne Rooney was injured, and commentators said he would not be ready for the early rounds, but would be fit for the Final. And that was before the first ball was kicked

Also when England lose the only excuse you never hear is the other team were better.

Why should Scots support England in the world cup. If Scotland had Qualified would every English person be supporting us?

We don't have problems with the Scottish not supporting England (why should they?) - the point is that the majority of Scottish I have met / heard from deliberately go against the English at every opportunity when there is no need - AM's comment is typical of what I hear. It is a classic sympton of jealousy - if they had their own team consistently good enough to make the grade, they would have better things to worry about than trying to oppose England. If Scotland were playing against some other team (besides England) I would be inclined to support them since they are our neighbours, but the Scottish come across as so insecure about themselves, they have to try and put down us. Well shame on you. It just shows how pathetic those people are. I also think anyone who makes comments like Dunblane are equally pathetic and they are just lowering themselves to the same level (even lower).

To Paul (3) I'd just like to say that I used to have the same attitude as you . But when I stopped to think about it I realised that, if it was Scotland who had won the World Cup, WE'D still be going on about it. For goodness sake, some people still talk about Bannockburn like it was yesterday!

As for the non-story about people not supporting England - who cares. I'm not bothered whether they win or lose. I just want to see a good game. I don't support them because I'm not English, just as I couldn't give a monkeys whether they support Scotland(though, to be fair, most of them do - then take the mick when we lose!).

P.S. the Bank of England was started by...a scotsman!

I personally think that the English should develop a sense of humour. That's all it is really, not an anti-English mentality, not some kind of racial hatred, it's just a laugh that's went on for years.

And Zoe, I agree that those incidents of violence were wrong and stupid, but overall there have been what, three of these situations in Scotland? But there's been similar incidents of violence from England fans in the past and there will be in the future, and where's that documented?

How many Scots do you think would feel safe walking round Manchester in a Scotland shirt?

I personally think that the English should develop a sense of humour. That's all it is really, not an anti-English mentality, not some kind of racial hatred, it's just a laugh that's went on for years.

And Zoe, I agree that those incidents of violence were wrong and stupid, but overall there have been what, three of these situations in Scotland? But there's been similar incidents of violence from England fans in the past and there will be in the future, and where's that documented?

How many Scots do you think would feel safe walking round Manchester in a Scotland shirt?

I agree with you Gregor. It's been blown ut of all proportion.

Though I have to say I live in England at the moment and have never had any problems with the people. I have had the occasional "weaty sock" thing but you just give it back. It's just banter.

Gregor @ 29

Most English people do have a strong sense of humour - we have had to develop one to put up with all the name-calling that we get. If you give it you should be able to take it.

The English 'supporters' who have caused trouble in Germany have been well documented and pilloried in the English press. They are a disgrace and should be deported if they are violent and disruptive in other countries.

I do not know whether you would be safe in parts of Manchester wearing an English shirt but there are 1 million Scots living and working in England - if it was that bad - would they be here?

Lauren (26) "Scottish come across as so insecure about themselves, they have to try and put down us"

If english people are so secure about themself and their team why do they give a monkeys who does or does not support them? Seems a very fragile security to me. You said "Well shame on you" surely people had a golden opportunity to rise about this and take the higher ground but ya kinda nissed the boat on that one...ah well. As for me in some ways i am a small, petty man! But i can live with that.

But the real reason people from Scotland want to show their scottishness and not support their greatest rival is because a lot of English people think england as britain and vice versa. when we go overseas, when people ask what country you are from and we say Britain they think England, almost without exception! But when you say we are from Scotland their attitude changes and it's all "oh come join us!" etc. A bit like Canadians who ware their countries flag whenever they go traveling so no body thinks they are from the USA.

A final word to those who get their knickers ina twist about which nation scots support i sugest you take a long hard look at the world in which we live and shut up!

Allan,
As I said - people can support whoever, the hell they want - I am supporting England & Ukraine (family reasons) in that order. I also greatly admire Brazil (who doesn't?) and France for the simple and childish reason that they have the best national anthem in the world. All about overthrowing the ruling classes - Come the Revolution!!

Your second para falls down on the fact that the present 'British' Government is made up of a large number of Scots - do you admit that when you travel abroad?

I, have never, personally had a problem with people of any nationality (that I have met so far) - maybe it's because I judge them as individuals and not as some pre-concieved media led stereotype.

Anyone but Murray T-shirts - ha ha very funny. I love this originality. Where can I buy one? Andy is a public figure and he should learn how to speak. Instead of saying "support anyone but England" he should phrase it so that he sends out his passionate message but at the same time dont stir the pot. He makes himself come across as not likeable, he lacks humility. I can understand one's passion and preference but dont need to be nasty about it. Didn't anyone ever tell him that if you have nothing nice to say, dont say anything (in media). Majority of us adore Federer, even though he is not British, but how can you not like him? Such a beautiful player as per technique. Truly a beautiful man to most women, kinda like Canadian Grade-A beef! (ha ha). What is there to look at for Murray? Loud mouth, pimpled face, good tennis player but not great. He belongs as a guest on the Jerry Springer show. I dont think he can find his own personality, not even with a map.

Beware all you fellow Scots living in England, Mr Blair will make it compulsory to support England, or you will all be deported to somewhere cold and dark (possibly Scotland?) At least if they make it compulsory to support the Republic of Ireland over here, watching the games on RTE means we wouldn't have to listen to the xenophobic rubbish we get spat at us from BBC/ITV

It's a mindset thing that the English just do not comprehend. Until very recently England was synonymous with Britain in their eyes, and they probably and quite understandably saw nothing wrong with that. That is why they cannot understand the view from Scotland (or Wales, Australia, or virtually any other country in the world that has had a connection with Britain)

On the BBC, if you're a Scot and winning, you're British, if you're losing you're a Scot. Similarly, if you're English and winning you're English, if you're losing you're British. After many years, the media have grudgingly called rioting English fans English instead of British, although it still slips out sometimes.

Just watch any Grand Prix (not the BBC I know) and listen to the ranting about Button, even if Coulthard finishes (almost always) several places ahead of him.

Scott (15) - We've tried for years to have our own news programmes on BBC, the campaign for a 'Scottish 6' has been running a long time, but the BBC won't allow it. Probably terrified that we might not follow political instructions. No newspaper in Scotland pushes a positive Scottish line, ESPECIALLY this one.

Go Andy - it's YOUR nationality, be proud to be a Scot and don't be intimidated or forced into a position you don't agree with. They'll claim you as their own if you win, regardless of anything you say.

I am English and sick to death of the prevailing Scottish anti-English racism. The Scots complain about England in all its aspects, but are more than happy to receive their greater share of tax revenue mainly generated from England. We English are ruled by Scottish Labour MPs who have little jurisdiction in their won constituencies due to the devolved Scottish Parliament, but are more than happy to dictate what should happen to the English in purely internal affairs. Similarly, the media is top heavy with the Scottish mafia and contains an anti-English bias as a result. Independence for England cannot come quick enough. PS. I have never had any problem distinguishing between Britain as a whole or England in particular, especially since the devolution of Scotland. PPS. Andy Murray who?

Why shouldn't English commentators be biased towards England? It's their country for crying out loud. I wish Scottish commentators would be a bit more biased towards our team.

The problem arises because we get the same commentary as England, but that's down to the TV companies.

Living in Kent I am geographically closer to France than to Scotland, but nobody here expects the French to support the English football team. The "expectation" that the Scots should automatically support another country (England) smacks of imperialism or at least a misplaced superiority complex.
It doesn't matter how many Scots do/do not support England; the results will nto be changed so why worry.

For many years past, and no doubt to come, the mutual wind-up across the border will continue and will provide much amusement and fun - as long as we keep it in perspective and learn to laugh at our own shortcomings and bias.

No doubt Andy will not be affected by a minority of English fans not supporting him and might even be pushed to greater achievements by those who irritate him by expressing their opposition. He might even, as a result, get even more fans from other countries - many of whom have a similar antipathy to England.

As a reply to Steve (37), we had this whole debate about subsidies a few days ago and even politicians can't agree on what the actual figures are. Just as there are figures saying Scotland is over subsidised, if you look at other figures , the reverse is the case (and that's without oil).

I can't remember who it was who said,"If you torture data long enough you can make it confess to anything.", but he/she was right. Practically every political debate seems to be based on different ways of looking at the same figures.

Bill from East Africa wrote:

"it is somehow unfunny that english tennis fans should be surprised or even shocked that a scot might not support their beloved football team. Such unpatriotic views should be covered in the anti-terror legislation and Murray and others like him locked up immediately."

If I had been in Murray's position I would have said the same thing, I'm part of the ABE brigade and itas not because of the media, politics or history - its because they are our arch rivals.

Its called competiton, can you imagine what the EPL (greatest league in the world) would be like if all the managers wouldn't begrudge each other wins? What would the atmosphere be like at a Merseyside derby if both sets of fans were cheering for both teams?

I support all England's opponents and I'm not ashamed of it, if any English people want to support Scotland's opponent, I couldn't give a monkeys as it is your personal choice. You can call it what you want, but let me say this...

...I support Hearts - do you think I'll be supporting Hibs (Andy Murray's team) in the Intertoto Cup? Nope, I want to see them hosed out by some team I've never heard of - its funny to see your arch rivals embarassed and if anyone doesn't get that then there is something seriously wrong!

1. Re:mentions of 1966 - is it really physically possible for the English to mention this more often than the Scots who go and on about it?
2. Re:the beef about 'Scots' stars always being referred to as 'British' (Bill, Dunblane) well next time watch the oscars and see how many of the English stars are referred to as British in the Scottish press not to mention that well-known 'Scottish' writer JK Rowling.
3. Re: living in the past (Paul, NSW)I don't think the English need lessons from the Scots about that in any context
Remember what the bible has to say about seeing the mote in the eye of the other person but not the beam in your own eye (in other words both sides of this argument need to stop being such holier-than-thou hypocrites)

I am mainly English with a bit of Scottish blood going back several generations! In sport I support England as my first team and used to support Scotland as my second team. However I have been disappointed by the "support any body but England" attitude and feel that I can no longer support Scotland.

Scotland is part of the United Kingdom whether you like it or not so your loyalties should lie to other home nations before you support other countries. Some of you might be resentful that you lost to the English and are part of the United Kingdom (although my understanding is that a lot of Scots joined the English voluntarily and were as responsible for some of the massacres as much as the English but it tends to get forgotten!).

Scotland does extremely well out of being part of the United Kingdom. On average you get £1,000 per head more than the rest of the United Kingdom spent on public services.

You get to make decision in the House of Parliament on issues that effect England and the English can not vote on issues that only affect Scotland.

A number of senior politicians are Scottish and it is fairly likely the next PM will be Scottish.

In Scotland you have got a lot out of being part of the United Kingdom. It is time you supported other countries that are a part of that union who subsidies your country and people.

The acts of violence on English supporters is disgusting and I hope these will be treated by the authorities as racist attacks (although I suspect they will not be!).

As for Andy Murray (and any other Scot) of course he should support any country that is part of the United Kingdom. But what a wimp and how to faced for changing his views because English fans stopped supporting him at Wimbledon (when he was supporting other teams against England!)!

AJ I agree that everyone can support who the hell they want. Thwas the point i was making! Personally i support Scotland and Brasil (i wish for family reasons) i am a glory hunter!

As for the second para doesn't fall down, due to that as goverments are far from permenant. Secondly it is a historical preseption of "Britain" as most people from other countries don't care which country a politician comes from. And given that it is such a stinking foul occupation who can blame them. And as for judging nations on media stereotypes, personally i have never done any such thing, that's why i have friends (well good aquaintances) around the globe.

But i agree with the French national anthem. Tis a good'n!

P.S. Steve (37) "Andy Murray Who?" answered you own question there mate! lol

Edit "most people from other countries don't care which country a politician comes from."

Should have been "most people don't care which country a politician comes from"

Steve...37. Thanks you made the case.Your right the country is being run by Scots.What does that tell you about the English? Do you not have anyone better?English Tory MPs voted for the Poll Tax to be introduced in Scotland against the wishes of Scotland.Did you say this was wrong.
Back to football. One of your past captains stated recently on TV he loved it when Scotland lost a match and that he and the rest of the England team had a celebration when Scotland were knocked out of the world Cup in France.

QH - "In Scotland you have got a lot out of being part of the United Kingdom. It is time you supported other countries that are a part of that union who subsidies your country and people."
Or what? Anyone who tells me who to support is nothing but a fascist. The truth about the Union is that England has got a hell of a lot out of it. I notice that you don't mention any of the North Sea oil money that continues to flow all the way down to London, still around 14 billion pounds a year. The notion that Scottish MP's control England is so funny! How many Scottish MP's are there? How many English MP's?
I think that all this World Cup nonsense shows us something - namely the United Kingdom is dead. If you in England were serious about being part of the UK why is there still a Bank of England? Why did Nelson not say "Britain expects?"

Incidentally I have traveled quiet extensively. I almost always get a great reception when I say I am English (not sure I ever recall getting a bad reception). I find the way most people react to you will depend on how you come across. I also learn a few local words and that has amazing results. I am normally asked if I know the names of English football players! Traveling around many parts of South East Asia the most widely spoken English word is David Beckham!

I hope we win the world cup but I also realise there are a lot of other good teams out there. Still nothing wrong with being proud of your countries team and supporting them.

I have to say Moira it is freaky how similar our posts are and I had started writing before yours was showing. Spooky.

Allan @ 43

I think what has upset a lot of, dare I say, 'ordinary' English people since this WC started is not the fact that Scots are not supporting England but the venom with which some (not all and not many) commentators express it. This is being widely stirred up in the press, in both countries, because:

a. It sells newspapers.
b. They have their own political agenda and masters.
c. It sells newspapers.

The English are pleased that the England team are in the WC - as they are pleased that the sun is shining - if the commentators get carried away with themselves - well they are mostly footballers who are an excitable lot. Most English people do not actually expect the team to win - but there is always that element of hope.............please let us enjoy the party while it lasts!!

Also, if people can not get over what happened in past centuries there is no hope for them. There are injustices and evil things happening in the world today, they would be better expending their energies on those.

Cheers, never been to China - must be an interesting place?

QH, your attitude is exactly why a lot of people don't support England. England has gotten a lot out of the Union as well it isn't a one way street.

As for the figures you quote, this does not take into account all spending. For example the billions that get spent on MOD sites and employing people in them. These are all centralised around the south-east. Depending on who you talk to depends on who's subsidising who. Everyone seems to have different sets of figures to pull out of a hat.

I do agree with you on the voting thing. I don't see why any of our politicians should have a vote on purely English matters. However, Labour will never change that as they rely on Scottish politicians to see a lot of legislation through. I suppose you might have a wee problem if it did change soon. Can you imagine Mr. Brown , the probable next PM, not being allowed a vote?

So who was it again that said "If you're not with us, you're against us". Looks like Bushisms fit in nicely with English mentality. Pretty soon we can expect a Guantanamo on St Kilda, and extraordinary rendition of the Tartan Army to Wales.

We Scots are not jealous, we're just fed up of hearing the constant drone of how England are always the best team at every sport they play. When they win it goes on and on and if they lose well, we never hear the end of that either. They are arrogant, cocky and poor losers. And why do they always have to go on and on and on and on and on about 1966 - who gives a monkeys. Let people support who they want - including Andy Murray. Why should he support England just because he's a high profile sportsman.

I would agree with many of the comments above, but what people really need to think about is the sport, whatever sport it may be.

All of these athletes, including the English football team, more than ever pour their entire lifes into their chosen sport often at the cost of a normal life for many of them, and very few come out winners, if any of the people reading this have played any sport to a reasonable standard they will appreciate this!

So lets not let certain quarters of the media and certain small minded people on this "wee island" ruin it for all of us and instead lets embrace all of these athletes in their chosen sport, and marvel at the spectacle.

I for one hope the English team do well, its the team i support, and not the media or anybody else because i know how much effort the team are all putting in.

Lets just embrace sport.

I am so tired of this debate already. It seems to be an area which we'll never agree on.

Firstly, as for public funding there is no definate answer on who gets more. Personally, I think the fact that the 70s government hid a document stating that scotland would be one of the richest countries in the world riviling the Swiss and Saudi Arabia should we have became independent at that time due to our oil revenues says alot. Look how well Norway has done for itself. For me, I'm Scottish first then British and I would imagine the same is true for alot of English people.

As for Andy Murrays comments well hes not english so if he does not want to support england that is his poragative. I am not supporting england either although I do wish them well in the tournament. It is hard to become immensly passionate about a country that is not your own so that is why I am choosing not to give half-hearted support. I choose to support the underdogs, mainly african teams because they remind me of Scotland efforts at the world cup (which we all know are usually pitiful but hey we have a good laugh at ourselves.)

What I do not understand is why the media is making a big deal out of it? England is a country of over 40 million people why do they care if they have the support of 6 million Scots? Surely over 40 million is enough? I think alot of it comes down to newspapers having nothing better to write about so why not stir up some more rivarly.

The 3 attacks on English up here were done by nothing more than small minded idgits, very much like those who are now making taunts about Dunblane.

Yes, most Scots will not be supporting England but that does not mean we hate our neighbours its all abit of fun and if you have a look at figures for Wales and Northern Ireland theres not exactly high support from there either.

AJ (49) I agree with your points (a,b,c) and i'm not against you enjoing your party...like i said do what you like, support who you like. Doesn't matter one iota to me. Just dont like being told who i should support because we ar part of the UK. Hell i know scottish people who support other countries instead of scotland...we give them a hard time about it, but at the end of the day it is their choice.

Equally i couldn't give a monkeys about the "past centuries" never intimated i did (least not that i am aware of). The point was more to do with the preseption that Britain is seen as England was Scotland, wales and Northen Ireland stuck on. Instead of 4 sepreate nation making a new entity.

China is amazing highly recomend it, but telling people you come form scotland you do get the response "That's northen England!?" as has been stated by al (47). It is funny but tiring trying to explain the difference. Fortunately i brought my kilt...always a conversation starter!

The press are totally to blame for the anti England feeling. Only this week Sky news referred to the English hooligans in Germany as 'British'. Clearly the majority of the media use England when they're doing well and British if its bad news reversely good Scots sports people become 'English' . Tony Blair's comments regarding 2 isolated anti English incidents served only to stir it up. I didn't hear any comments from him regarding the trouble in Germany.

Allan (33) I do agree about your comments about being overseas.

I recently went on a business related trip to India with 6 colleagues from offices in England. At night when we relaxed at a restaurant or bar we attracted alot of attention for our skin colour and people would come up and ask where we were from one of my colleagues would alwways answer oh we are all from England. I started to become annoyed of course the fifth time and asked can you not just say the UK because I did not want to jump in and say oh Scotland to people but I felt I was being pushed into being unpatriotic. Of course sometimes we'd get comments about the Raj which alot of Indians still hold resentment over and towards the end of a 3 week trip I was saying I am from Scotland and they could not be nicer to me. Often abroad when you say Scotland you do get a total different reaction to saying Britian or the UK.

As to a third of the cabinet being Scottish, they are mostly wannabe Englishmen, can you not kept them? (hehe)

Stephanie @ 55

Good post -

However, the UK media (Eng/Scot) who are stirring this up are only interested in antagonising the English and the Scots. There are probably a few reasons for this but cynic that I am I think the main one (apart from selling newspapers) is that the majority of the press is Tory owned. They want Labour out and will use the number of Scots in the government to do it by raising the ire of the English people anyway they can.

Tam @ 48
As far as the Bank of England goes - you have the Bank of Scotland and, last time I visited your own notes. The English cannot be blamed for a remark make by an aristocratic admiral, then or now, (who was actually having a punch up with the French at the time - and trying to stop an invasion) most of the 'Jolly Jack Tars' that made up the cannon fodder in his Navy were press ganged into it.

As far, as other countries thinking that Scotland is part of England - we can not be blamed for the lack of geography education in the whole world.

Just a side note: My wife (who is chinese) and i have just had a baby, we had to get an ID card for her so my mother-in-law took care of it. When they asked "What tribe" i was from. My mother-in-laws said Scotland. Couldn't help but laugh.

Well I am afraid you are misguided Tam about how much the North Sea oil would contribute to Scotland. True there are all sorts of ways of representing statistics but if you look at the Scottish Governments own websites (that I am sure has the most pro Scotland stats!) that even if Scotland were to include all North Sea Oil (debatable if it should include 100%) revenue you would still gain net benefit from the UK of £3bn per year! With North Sea reserves dropping this is only going to get worse in the future.

See this link http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2003/12/18650/30265

Of course all of us including England have benefited from the Union. Some of the biggest Empire builders were Scottish and helped us all to be the success that we are. It is a great team that we are all part of and we should support each other in sport and otherwise. Working as a team our countries can achieve much more for all of us than working separately. But lets work together and support each other!

Louise at 58, similalrly I'm fed up with the constant drone of Scottish MPs dictating to the English people that we have to have pay for tuition fees and nursing care for the elderly when the Scots don't have to. It's a political thing rather than who supports who at sport. Dr Reid cannot influence policing in his own Scottish constituency, but can preside over every English constabulary! The English voted for a Conservative Govt at the last election, but were denied their democratic rights because Scotland; with its disproportionate number of MPs to the actual population compared to the rest of the UK; voted New Labour. You have your own assembly, we don't! As a result, England is saddled with Tony Blair's vacuous cronies for another term of Govt. Why should 4 million Scots be allowed to dictate the future of 50 million English? If there's one good thing to have materialised out of devolution and to some extent mass uncontrolled immigration, it's the rebirth of English pride and nationalism! Not long ago, if asked abroad if I was British I would have replied yes, but no longer, I'm English and very proud of it!!!!!!

The only parts of Scotland that are really Scottish are Gaelic speaking and I don't think they've ever produced a sports "star." MacGregor (butterfly) was englished. If they were ever to descend to the blighted greed of professional sports they might turn out a fair shinty player some day. Andie's just a laddie making a buck. What on earth is he going to be proud of later on, his manliness, his generosity, his contribution to human-kind?

As Scottish Europhile living in Edinburgh I have a confusing conundrum.
Germany plays Argentina tomorrow and as a result of a sweepstake at the office I have £5 on the ‘Argies’ to win. Does this now make me a Euro sceptic?

“Being in politics is like being a football coach. You have to be smart enough to understand the game, and dumb enough to think it's important.

It is true that Scots MPs now get to vote on English matters and not vice versa - it's called the Westlothian question and debate has been raging about it since well before devolution - as a result most Scottish MPs do not vote in these matters unless there's a 3 line whip. But please don't take the hump - after all we've had to put up with it for generations before devolution (the poll tax was particularly galling), so think of it as a redressing of the balance.
My opinion is that since devolution the anti-English sentiment in Scotland has subsided (now we're making our own mistakes and unable to blame it on anyone else - which we're extremely good at doing), and the only time this bubbles over is in sport.
I do not support England at football or rugby because I support Scotland, and as our closest rivals I want them to lose. Similarly as I support Hibs I like to see Hearts beaten at every opportunity. I support English cricket as I consider them to be my 'local' team. I support Tim Henman, Kelly Holmes and any other British sportsperson who represents Britain.
A bit of friendly rivalry is healthy and I abhorr it when this turns into rampant nationalism and violence. People are free to support whatever team they wish and it is great to see that England has reclaimed the St Georges Cross from the right wing racists.
I shall not be supporting England this WC - if there was a British team (made up of solely of English players as would probably happen) I would support it.
I shall be supporting Andy Murray - despite his ill-advised comments both on this topic and the salaries of male & female players (he needs to concentrate on playing and keep his mouth shut).

John G (68) slightly off on a tangent here but NO! "the only parts of Scotland that are really Scottish speak Gaelic". What? Are you even from Scotland? Gaelic (and watch how you pronounce it - it's not gaye-lick lick most North Americans believe) is the language of the Highlands and Islands. Historically, central and lowland Scotland speak - Scots - you know like Rabbie Burns, you might have heard of him? Please do not tell me I am not Scottish.

The midlothain question is one that should be answered and resolved quickly by the government but as Scotland almost always votes labour (largely due to the tories inflicting poll tax on us before the rest of the UK) its going to take a tory government to redress the balance.

I do not think our MPs should be allowed to vote on english matters either, we wouldn't want english MPs deciding our future either.

As to the number of Scots in the cabinet, its upto Tony Blair to answer to that, he makes the decisions. He may find these people to be of high professionalism (Did i say that about and MP? Must be going mad), I do not think for one moment that these appoints come down to Nationality, it will be due to reputation. If someone with a better one comes along they'll be out of a job. Simple.

C'mon Andy!!!!! Myself and my English wife are right behind you.

The main difference that the English idiots on his site forget is that they have not had to endure 50 years of blinkered, jingoistic and anti-English comments by Scottish sports commentators, unlike us north of th eborder.
Prove them wrong - win Wimbledon my son!! That'll give all decent people in the UK something to cheer about.

ps, I will be supporting Engurland on Sunday but if they meet Brazil in the semi's, I cannot possibly support a team that plays such dull football against th efinest footballing nation in history!

oops that should read
they have not had to endure 50 years of blinkered, jingoistic and anti-English comments by Scottish sports commentators, unlike us north of the border have had to listen to English commentators!

Al @ 73. Here we go again, '300 hundred years ago'! Oh please, we're talking about the here and now. If we must rake up the past, most of the atrocities that took place in Scotland 300 hundred years ago was as a result of Scot v Scot. My Father lost his house twice in the Blitz, but has forgiven the Germans! This sort of historical stance explains why there's so much bigotry/stupidity in N. Ireland. Move on and forgive. As for dissolution of the UK, it can't come quick enough for me!

Their seems to be a misconception here that Andy Murray represents Scotland at Wimbledon. Not so, according to the Lawn Tennis Association, who make it clear that he represents Great Britain. So we can all support him if we want.

If for reasons of their own, some Scots feel unable to support the English football team on the same basis, that's their problem. Both are only games, and very dull at times, too. Why all the nationalistic aggro?

The t-shirts with anyone but andy - its a good pun. always good to have a laugh

reminds me of tshirts we have here. As a pun ons mars name change to believe the tshirts have a picture of the bar on the front with a question mark and the back says

Maarse

Amusing. As is the one about Andy.

Al @ 73

The last 300 years............... come on, the Scots have punched above their weight in the union for all of those 300 years - a cursory glance at history tells you that.

The past cannot be changed ..... we could all pick bits of history out to win an argument. The man who is most blamed for the slaughter on the Western Front in WW1 is Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig - he was a Scot. I do not blame every Scot for his military mistakes and what was, at times, blatant disregard for the lives of the 'Tommies' . This is despite having researched my great grandfather, who was killed in France in 1917, and also having studied the appalling errors made by Haig.

History can only be viewed with hindsight, people living today are not to blame for the mistakes of their forefathers. We can only learn from them.

This is an interesting debate which started off with Murray - went to football (groan), Scottish independence, Lord Nelson etc etc. Great stuff - lets hope they are not still debating all this in 300 years time!!

Oh and good luck in the tennis Andy!!!

But it is an age old rivalry.. and something we've all lived with, and also never cared about before. It's always gone on, why is this year so hyped up?

It's a case of going back and forth and getting worse each time. We support other teams playing England this year more than ever because we fear media backlash from England progressing to the final and winning. We are annoyed about the advertising and other media outlets TELLING us to support England, so in return we say.. 'no.. in fact, I'll support Portugal'.

Some of it is strictly throwing a tantrum from not wanting to be forced into anything, and it is a clear message we get through the media that we SHOULD support England, whether it's strictly true or not.

Apart from that, it's an auld enemy thing. And as someone said before... if England go out will their fans be expected to support their nearest neighbour left in the tournament? Germany perhaps? i don't see that happening... in fact, many English would likely support 'anyone by Germany' in a match. It really is no different.

And what's wrong with Andy wearing the Saltire on his wrist. If Henman wore a St George cross no one would care, on either side of the border. Some arguments are proposterous and made by a minority. We need to try and not let that minority ruin what should be friendly rivalry, which I have never seen be as bad and hyped as it is now.

p.s. Yes, I'm hoping Portugal wins. But again I say... why do you care who I support?

If you want the dissolution of the UK, you go ahead and campaign for it. I said in an earlier post I am Scottish first, British second, the same is the case for my English boyfriend. We have a good laugh over the rivarly between our two countries but its nothing to break up the UK over. Imagine the effect on Northern Ireland never mind on England, Scotland and Wales. If it did happen I wonder where England would move its nuclear subs to, I for one would be glad to get them out of our waters. Opinion polls suggest the majority of Scots want them out too, another reason Gordon Brown should stay in London. But Im digressing from the point once more. The midlothain question is the fault of the labour government failing to sort out legislation. Some boundry changes have already occuredl, my constitunecy was merged with another two so there is some progress.

Linsey your comparison about supporting Germany is absurd. In case you had not noticed Germany are not part of the United Kingdom!

QH England says, and i quote ''Scotland is part of the United Kingdom whether it likes it or not''.---this says it all really.
gon yersel Andy,

"The finest view a Scotsman ever sees is the high road leading him to England"

PS The England captain I refer to is Terry Butcher

AL :

ENGLAND, MY FRIEND, IS A PROVENCE OF GB.

I'VE BEEN IN THIS DEBATE FOR ABOUT 1 AND A HALF MONTHS.

Hi Diane & Fraser I`m glad to see your relationship going from strength to strength. Jack McConnell has managed to do more for Scottish Independence than Mr Salmond ever hoped to. I still think his comment "anyone BUT England" was not very professional. Unfortuntely Andy Murray jumped on the bandwagon, but he is only a young lad, perhaps that is why he is surprised at the backlash. Remarks about Dunblane totally & utterley out of order. I & many many many other English wish you well. PS Yes we we do go OTT over 1966, but have had to suffer you all going on about swimming successes at Melbourne Well done `tho

P.S. The comments about his mother and the Dunblane massacre are made by real scumbags.

Well they are the Scotland B team so can let you off there mate.

WHO CARES!!!

Chill CA

A noble sentiment, Gerard, but I think the current, fairly trivial, sporting disagreements are a symptom of a greater distancing which is the product of decades. Scots anti-English feeling really has been obvious for a long time, although it has been growing in the past decade -- it even rears its head at mathematics conferences! The novelty is that we English are also growing tired of the Union, even those of us with Scottish relations.

To take a simple example, when visiting family in Scotland in 2003, we travelled south via Melrose, where shops sold tea towels sold in giftshops proclaimed anti-English banter. Melrose Abbey initially refused our English Heritage cards, the Scottish patriot shouting "They're not welcome here!" at my children, until his boss realized it was the sister organization of Historic Scotland. These examples would only be trivial if they were isolated, rather than typical. If you tell us we're awful for long enough, then you really can't be surprised that we start listening.

Thanks for that AJ - well said. I want england to do well, I just don't want them to win the thing! We scots have to deal with these inner demons every two years whereas you guys can rest easy in the knowledge that between us Scotland, Ireland and Wales haven't a snowballs chance.... :)

The Scotsman has now got their reporters out trying to find the only person in Scotland who has not pontificated on the subjet - whilst in England they are trying to find anyone who gives a monkeys.

Can we please all grow up! The only thing that dictates whether you like a person or not should be whether they have a good or bad character, not which side of a border they were born on. And surely fellow sportsmen are mature enough to support and congratulate each other even if it is with some healthy freindly banter. I'm ashamed for these public figures who are letting their countries down by their immature attitudes and I don't wish to be represented by any of them, sporting or other wise. The world cup should be an opportunity to bring nations together in good spirit. To anyone who disagrees I say again, GROW UP!

Allan,

Yes Ireland is now booming (Hallelujah!), but wait to see what will happen as more Eastern European countries join the EU. Norway has to follow EU directives although outside the EU - it's at the mercy of EU goodwill. From what I understand most of the oil is actually adjacent to Shetland - and I think that the London government would be able to force through a very handsome deal if Scotland seceded.

Moreover, if the UK broke up, Scotland and England would be competititve economies and governments. If there were wrangling at the EU about grants or what the individual states pay into the common kitty, or if there were competition as to who would gain an EU subsidy or investment, guess which state would win out - one with 50 million people or one with 5 million? And remember what I said about the change to population based voting.

Although obviously not a native Londoner, I live here and love its multi-cultural character. Lots of Scots are here too. Wev have a devolved assembly (GLA) - a joke talking-shop representing more people than in Scotland (7 million - and the sooner the GLA is abolished as a complete waste of time and money, the better). We also have a Mayor (Ken) who has regularly campaigned, in a kind of SNP in reverse, for London money raised from taxes, high finance and tourism not to be sent out from here, notably - as he has emphasised in his original election - to Scotland. Ken's great on many issues, but this one was sufficient for me to take my vote elsewhere.

How about Mr McConnell making his own gesture of reconciliation - wishing the England team well against Portugal? Perhaps we could also persuade Mayor Ken to wish Scotland well the next time they play an international game against any but the home countries? Both gestures would be gentlemanly, amicable and a lot more grown-up than some other reactions we've had recently!

Thats the spirit Ken; after all its only a bit of banter. As for the england kit; even if I were living in England now I would not be wearing the kit. I just enjoy watching a game of football whoever is playing and that includes Scottish teams.

How are you doing Stephanie?

CA

You miss my point completely

Innes -
To be honest - i'm a bored teenager who has just finished her exams and has nothing better to do with her time. I start summer work (at the local council offices) on Monday so after that i won't be around any more :-)
I have plenty of hobbies just none that can be done in a small village of 250 people which is 25 miles from anything resembling a town or city! I am thwarted at every turn.

Well i'm off to watch Andy Murray play - if anyone takes a turn against me, just remember i am half scottish and half english and therefore have the best of both worlds. Not that it would matter if i was Northern Irish, fully Scottish, or fully English, i'd still support the biggest BRITISH hope tennis has had for many years.
Brian - I enjoyed the jokes with you :-)
Ken - sorry if i offended you.
Bye all, Helen

Helen,
Hmm I had you down as a bored middle aged divorced, probabily extreemly frustrated and lonley.

No wonder the council tax is so high employing such talent as yourself!

As well as the Archbishop of Canterbury, I am going to tell your Nana about you Helen. That was an outrageous comment to make. Your apology is accepted for confusing me with Lucifer. Have you been on the strong lager today.

funny that ... a boy that moved up here (about 20 years ago) went to my school and said the exact same thing about Cornwall not being English :D :D

i am fishing helen ... my post was bait .... and i am very much a Scottish nationalist ... i cannot stand "Br*tian"

sorry Brian, I am away now too.
see you tomorrow for the next chapter in the scotsmans campaign to undermine scotland and its citizens!!

Yes, of course
xx

Your a member of the elite class then Helen?

I think that you may be right Nigel.

Steve (218)

What suffering as a white English person have you been a victim of whilst living in Stoney and can I assume working in Aberdeen?

I used to always support Scotland in every sporting event. NOT ANY MORE.
I refuse to holiday in Scotland, refuse to spend my money on anything made in Scotland, refuse to support any Scot in any sporting event and won't vote for Gordon Brown.
Scottish people have a real attitude problem and until the anti-English rhetoric stops, I refuse to support Scotland in any way. Seems fair to me.
If you hate us that much, why don't you have the guts to declare independence from us and stop accepting our handouts?

To Lauren comment 26

If you knew anything about football, which by your smug comments you obviously don't, you would know that its only recently (the last 20 years or so) that England has had a team. Scotland has not qualified for the WC for 8 years, England did not qualify for 20 years 62-82. I suspect our team suffers because the kids have better educational posibilities in the latter half of the 20th century. As Scotland has an educational establishment second to none in my opinion. Good footballers come from poverty - take Wayne Rooney. So as long as you live in a run down dump like England i suspect you will be at many World Cups in the future.

James,
look at the facts, scotland subsidises you.
Me thinks it is you with the attitude problem/ still one less person like you here cannot be a bad thing.

Lucifer,
Well I couldn't use lucifer as a name - you have it already.
SWAP ;-) Ken is a good name, the first king of Scotland..

i'm repeating myself again... old habits die hard apparently, i'm regressing back to my younger asylum days.

Alison (#235)

The first account I have come across is in the "Daily Record" on the 13th of June. Not what I'd call a newspaper, but it gives you the general idea ....

"'FOOTIE ROW' SCOT STABBED TO DEATH
WORLD CUP LATEST Man held after 'Rab C knifed on street
By Lee-Ann Fullerton
A SCOT has died in England after being stabbed in a row over football.

Robert Whiteford - known as Rab C because of his Glaswegian accent - died after a fight on Friday, hours before England kicked off their World Cup campaign.

The dad-of-two was stabbed in the chest and heard screaming for help before he collapsed in front of shocked witnesses. He died later in hospital.

Locals in Barnstaple, Devon, said the fight had followed an argument about football.

A 36-year-old man was arrested by armed Devon and Cornwall police on Saturday night and is being quizzed by detectives.

Last night Robert's sister Denise said: "It's awful for my mum and dad. He was their only son. He will be missed by everyone.

"Rab was well respected and well liked.

"He was loud and friendly and was always laughing and cracking jokes.

"I'm glad to have known him. I'm glad we spent the time that we did together."

Robert, 41, moved to Barnstaple from Glasgow 15 years ago to be closer to his dad.

He had two teenage children, was also a grandfather, and "like a father" to his partner Sandi's three kids.

She left a message with flowers at the scene saying: "I never wanted to let you go but now I have to. I have to miss you for the rest of my life."

I am beginning to suspect that Ken could be Lucifer under another guise?

Brian -
She'd have heart attack if she found out i didn't class myself as religious or scottish :-D she is quite the Presbyterian and nationalist, not that there's anything wrong with that (it's up to her), it's just that my Mum gets an ear-roasting about my 'paki' friends who i'm 'friendly with' and who will fill my head 'with strange ideas'.
I pity her narrow view in someways - but i'd never conform to them, and my mother doesn't want me to!
And Lucifer - i fell hook line and sinker (boom boom)for that one didn't i? :-D

Sorry, taking time to catch up with this.

Going back to the bank note debate, if they are not legal tender why are lawyers happy to accept them!!!

*lol* Brian, not Scottish History - when i said Graduation Party, it's posh name for our A2 level (i believe the equivalent in Scotland is Highers?)leavers party. Graduation Party is what it said on the ticket - and thank you for the congratulations, much appreciated.
I plan to study German and Russian at Birmingham University (i am evidently attracted to danger!) and i hope to be a translator or a teacher.

I am scottish and proud of it, but i also have a lot of english friends. English people as individuals are like people from all overv the world (including scotland), a few bad eggs leave everybody else tarnished with the same brush However when a major sporting event like the world cup comes along the english media are a pain in the a**e. it is the way that they go over the top about a team that hasnt looked like winning anything for 40 years that really annoys most other nationalities, not just scots.

By the way i am personally cheering on the germans, for no other reason than that is the team that i have bet on.

Anybody who makesoffensive remarks about dunblane just cause thats where andy murray is from should think to themselves what if that had been one of their children at school when some psychopath came firing a gun randomly. I dont think they would make those comments for much longer.

Finally i would like to wish andy murray the best of luck and hope that he ignores any morons who boo him.

Ken - England subsides Scotland. Go and look up the 'Barnett Formula' in Wikipedia.

Scotland also has its own parliament, where as we don't.

Let me make it clear, I was never originally anti-Scottish. In fact I used to love visiting the Highlands and always called my nationality 'British'. However, it is the attitude of people like you which changed this. Why the hell should I spend my money in a place which is racist against people like me.

Crikey - just as things are starting to calm down - I'm even developing a soft spot for Lucifer - someone comes along and gives the pot another big stir. You won't be saying anything that hasn't already been said on this board - we've had the lot, tennis, football, currency, independence (Scot/Eng), Nelson, Jacobites, National Anthem, Morris Dances, Alumini..........Deep Fried Mars Bars, Bounties and Haggis for all I know they could be using the oil in the North Sea to deep fry them in.. I'm exhausted.....off for a spot of Pimms on the lawn don't cha know. See you Lucifer - over to you - get that Trident out and shake your horns at them!!

Mc Connell & Salmond should be put in the stocks

& pelted with rotten tomatoes!!!!

At a time when the World Cup should be being

enjoyed by us all..............I have read many

of the 323 postings here..................

They have soured relations.................

& brought out all the worst emotions in us all

English & Scottish!!!

A mark of Statesmen is that they transcend

enmity & rivalry for the good of All.........

we have seen this in South Africa & Ireland ....

Who would have believed either could be possible

All the Best,

Doug

Helen: what have you been studying (hopefully not Scottish History) and what are you going to be doing now that you have your degree? Congratulations.

James,
The barnet formula is to do with taxes raised from the people, it does not have any mention of oil revenue and the like.
You look that up!

You lot also voted not for a regional parliament/s in england.
Jees, as if Westminster is not an english parliament - and you can go on about the number of scottish MP's in the parliament and the cabinet etc till you are blue in the face. Scottish MP's in both are in the minority and can and are outvoted everytime by english MP's. Simple fact.

I am glad to be scottish and not british, as I have stated before - unionists are British, english are British, Scots who care for their country are
Scottish.
Britian is an out of date state.
European and scottish, that is me.
I am not anti english, I am pro scottish, and as soon as people like you understand that the better.

Hey AJ , Brian, Nigel et al

did we not have this conversation 2 days ago , must be getting old !

Lucifer , is your IQ the same as your foot size ?

by the way a'body Andy Murrays girlfriend is English i believe, so he is hardly racist against england , he is just a young boy who still sees all the banter in it.

In fact if you are either way of thought of anti english or anti Scots then i'd suggest you get out a bit more , perhaps even leave your country for while besides your 2 week holiday to Spain and understand how small or large the world or at least your part of it really is.
We Scots are great people who excel at numerous things incl our hospitality , ive sent many english people up north and they have come back raving about what a great time they have had yet ...

...we can stoop to the gutter at a moments notice, the english are exactly the same as are just about every nation in the world so this whole thing should be just what it is - and that is not a lot

I'll shout C'mon Andy ...but do it for yourself mate

Yes Laren appears a bit insecure about bein english - understandable really.
She is probabily tucked up in bed now sow I'll not waste my breath, still I do wonder why these type of people read the scotsman! They should stick to their insular we hole they call home.

Ken I don't give a toss who you are to be honest.

The reason why there are more English MP's in the Westminster parliament is because England has a population of 50 million where as Scotland has only 5 million. (Look that up).

The trouble with people like you is that the way you identify yourself as pro Scottish is to be anti-English. That is unacceptable to me.

For years, Scots have gotten away with this. But now English people won't settle for this any more.

Any Scots who actually cared about Scotland would probably want to stay in the UK since they get so many handouts, whilst their politicians still get to flood the Cabinet.

David (#262)

I'm not disagreeing with the points that you, and many others, are trying to make here.

Rather, I am commenting on those posters who are attempting to portray this current nonsense as being largely, or entirely, the fault of one side, and on those posters from England who write diatribes on why it's so wrong that the Scots should feel any ill-will towards their neighbours, but can't resist making a condascending and inflammatory comment at the end of their message - just to remind us of their perceived superiority.

Alison (#263)

You're welcome. I've seen other more objective accounts, but regardless of any "spin", the fact is someone was murdered, in England, over football. The point of my earlier comment was that posters should not try and score political points by quoting assaults on people wearing England football shirts when their own countrymen are guilty of far more serious crimes. Neither behaviour is acceptable.

To Alfred 161 - do you know verse 4 of God Save the Queen, something about crushing rebellious Scots and you complain about our choice. I complain about our choice because it's a dirge

James, James,
You stated
The trouble with people like you is that the way you identify yourself as pro Scottish is to be anti-English. That is unacceptable to me.

You obviously do not understand, do you?
That is the opposite of what I said...

I am anti British, not anti english.......

Finally, we do not get handouts, it is scotland that has kept the uk finacially over the last 30years. You look at the facts, if you can be bothered to take off your rose coloured sunglasses for a minute.

I think you speak for yourself not the majority, so don't try to pretend otherwise.

I understand that digital viewers used the red button to turn off the commentry, and no they weren't all scottish, most England supporters of fed up with inane dribble.
Ewen is right bigotry breeds bigotry.
Anyone North of the Watfor Gap is fed up of the southern emphasis in the media, you don't have to be Scottish.

Legal tender is a separate item under banking law than an commonly accepted form of payment

strictly speaking only Bof E notes under current banking law are legal tender but its all the same as accepted forms of payment are what really counts.

notes dont have to be legal tender to be accpeted in other words .

The point earlier on Shetland is my understanding why no scottish comment.
I was on a pier watching the ferry leave when a lad asked where the boat was going to, Scotland was the reply. The northern isles have a lot of the oil and are I think very sensitive of what the Scots would do with it.
I my recollection of history is right did not the Northern isles suffer the same way from Scottish landlords. Were they part of the country when Bannockburn was fought?
Islands that celebrate Norwegen Day enthustiastically might have a different view of the Central Belts preoccupations.
Do they have the same view I wonder of what could be percieved as a greedy southern neighbour. Not interested in them only for the oil.

As for me, I'm Scottish and British. Live in England currently; wear my own kilt (not hired); drink Whisky; love Scotland! But in lieu of Scotand, not being there, I'm supporting England!

Remember, bigotry breeds bigotry.

If England win, I dare say there will be times when I'll be fed-up hearing about 2006. But if Scotland won, wouldn't we be the same?

If you're English remember:-
Don't call something English when you mean British.
If you win, don't patronise Scots, Welsh or Irish about it.
Would you expect a Man City fan to support Man Utd?

If you're Scottish remember:-
Up until now, most English people have supported any Scotland team after England.
If you hate Engand, go and visit or stay in England for a bit - things have moved on since 1745!

Yet another comment as I watch Andy play brilliant tennis The crowd predominately English are all behind him. No mean spirits there

gathering from what i have viewed in real life (yep i have one) and online ... the bitterness is eminatating from both sides (English and Scots) ... and i believe it is getting worse ... the union is dieing and i for one won't miss it .... i might just give it one last kick as it withers and dies

brian deep fried mars bars ... i think not i hate mars bars now haggis in batter deep fried that is something entirely different :o)

A linguist ; very commendable Helen. Make sre that your course tutors are not Brummies or else you may be speaking German and Russian with a brummie accent!

er has anyone actually tasted deep fried mars bars , I had some chunks fried up down here on St Andrews night in an ordinary english pub in London who were having a Scottish night believe it or not

first time i ever tasted them , really really bl**dy nice by the way!

i was in total shock as had only ever saw them on a menu in a chip shop in Newcastle up til then

Ken

Why do you think I gave myself that name ......... guess what, it was intentional.

This whole thing is silly.

I'm an American who lives in Massachusetts, an area of the US known as New England, where the first settlers--from England--arrived 200+ years ago.

My heritage is Scottish, English, Irish, and Italian.

My country had a team competing in the World Cup.

I don't really have more than a passing interest in football, but I did watch some WC games.

For whom should I root?

The country where I was born and where I now live?
The country that settled my country?
One of the countries of my heritage?
The underdog?

More importantly, who cares which team I or anyone else supports? We all have free will. We don't live under wacky totalitarian regimes (well, let's not discuss life under Bush the Elder, a.k.a. Bush the Unready).

Perhaps most importantly, football is a GAME. Lighten up already!

That would be something to hear... :-D
Apparently i already speak German with an Austrian accent so north germans can't understand my accent! Just like in Britian :-)
Ooh... haggis! You're making me feel hungry Lucifer, stop it!

Doug, gee wizz, do think the small readership of the antiscottish rag the Scotsman has undermined everything.
Get a life!

We are enjoying the world cup, it has been good entertainment so far

A lot of the comment here is about whether scotland should be independent or not. Most english and scot's in england say not, I would say on a national level scots are fairly equally divided on the issue.
The SNP, Greens, Scottish Socialists and independents are pro independence in a positive way, and they make up 4/5th of the parliament at the present time. Set to increase next year at the elections, I hope.

It seems to me that any pro scottish sentiment is regarded as anti english, so sad.
In a world that has around two or three countries declaring themselves independent per year, why should scotland be any diferent.

Interestingly you mention both Ireland and South Africa, both fairly new independent countries. You stated they transended good & enmity for all. Independence here would do the same.

Well said Jack Exactly the point as I see it too Innes I don`t think you are correct about most persons in England not wanting Scotland to gain it`s independence I haven`t heard anyone done here against, believe me there is a very strong back lash against Scotland Not noticeable against Wales Enough is enough

That is great Brian :-D i like it!
Are you sure you aren't a secret alumni, or someone of that ilk? You seem to be on my wavelength (or i am on yours) and we two do seem to be standing out for the crowd around us - somewhat off topic!

I have to say that my (and our) bad feeling about all this is not that Murray chose not to support England, as implied in the headline, but that he chose to support any team playing England.

There is a big difference. He could support Brazil for all I care, or state that he has no interest in how England do, but to 'take the other side' for each game is pathetic.

Frankly, it perpetuates the hatred that some Scots have for the English. Banter - maybe, a joke - maybe, but it has its roots in history that should not be perpetuated, particularly with the stupid attacks on England shirt-wearing people in Scotland.

Jack,
I kind of take your point. It must be hard for him to be scottish in a place that is full of union jacks and george crosses. It is after all a foreign country.
I am sure that he will change his view soon, he is only 18!, I am sure I could have made some offending remarks when I was that age, as would most 18 year old's. Bet he will still vote for a unionist party though. Sounds familiar to me..
As for hatred, please be reassured, I very much doubt that there are many who hate the english - maybe the political structure of things, but not the individual. Of that I am sure.
I am a 100% scottish nationalist, as I have siad before a european and scot. I reject Britian as a union of countries, but I live with it until we get independence. I do not hate or even dislike english people. I live in the middle of scotland, where there are many english peole who live here, and like any race of people most are great, fine and decent people. I as sure they do feel a little uncomfortable due to the media stirring things up, but as for anthtinhg else I have not witnessed any bad feeling, and I say that honestly.
I hope that explains my view

Does'nt each University campus have an Alumni Association?

Brian,
ooooooh you are awful, but I like you (maybe :-))

The reason we look at the Scotsman - is because there's nothing we enjoy more than winding you up with our comments. You're like little clockwork toys!!

As for you - Scott from Wellington - another rabid expat - who knows nothing about the situation here - and has completely missed the main discussion anyway - it was hours ago.

There's nothing more insular or parochial than a Jock - small nation, small minded people.
See ya wouldn't wanna be ya!!

344 & 345 What a lovely way with words you have. Great examples of "educational establishments second to none"

Ok we all know Scotland have not be in the WC for ages and we take that as it comes, Its almost expected so when it happens we are ready for the disappointment.

I have watched alot of the games and seen all the england ones. So far I think they have played poorly. Myself and my mum have tried to support england in the games but we don't get passionate about the team. You can't for a country that is not your own.

I think this has blown out of proportion. Sweeping gerneralisations that all Scots hate the English is wrong. We have some idoits that hate I'm sure but then England has football hooligans so what you gonna do? Every country has bad eggs.

ann

Your long winded comment contradicts itself:

"Nobody seems to be mentioning that deprived areas in England get exactly the same as the wealthy South."

If they are deprived how the hell can they be receiving as much money?

The South East may have higher wages - but the cost of living is substantially higher as well. Why don't you do a bit of travelling and broaden your mind.

You, Scots and your oil obsession if it had been left up to you lot - the sea bed would have been left unmolested.

David Cameron is standing for the Tory party - who would have got in at the last election if it hadn't been for the Scots - Long Live English independence!

john bull,
Your surname says it all.
I woundn't waste my time slagging off the english in the 'times' etc. You are lacking something to do the opposite.
you should be tucked up in bed by now with your boyfriend.

Andy Murray said over a week ago he was bantering with Tim Henman about football when he made the comment. The interviewer twisted the remark out of context. Not supporting the England Team in Scotland has always been done in a good humoured way before nothing personal or nasty. Sadly, this world cup all the ballyhoo on tv/press "demanding" our support and general Scottish bashing has changed the atmosphere totally. As a result a minority of idiots have got in on the act. Nobody I know has been malicious or ever said "I hate the English so I'm not supporting their team".

Of course the attacks on English fans were deplorable and the perpetraters should be found and prosecuted. There were 3 isolated attacks in Scotland so 5 million scots aren't anti-english. I think we have to get things into perspective. How many attacks were there on English fans after the outdoor screenings of the first England match? So many that they will not be showing them again! On balance an English fan is probably far safer in Scotland than in England during the world cup.

Reference we are subsidised by English taxpayers. Even leaving out oil revenues to the treasury from Scotland we are "not" subsidised. The Barnet formula was introduced as a fairer way to distribute the pot which historically left Scotland with the short end of the straw. The formula takes into account the ratio of land mass to population. It costs more per head to provide services for 5m people over a large land mass than 50m over a similar land mass. Lower wages in Scotland therefore lower tax revenues. Also it costs more per head to provide services for 5m than 50m people. Need is factored into the equation. More than 20m of the population in England live in the wealthiest part of the country with the highest wages. Additionally, huge amounts of public money is spent on projects that only benefit the SE of England. Nobody seems

Your other point
"We in Scotland gain nothing from our mps voting on English matters".

Well, you can be damm sure that we in England gain nothing from your MP's voting on English matters.

Bull sh*t
if you cannot rely on the vest english majority in westminster, why should we bother.
Got to convince your own, then you have nothing to moan about, unlike us who can all vote for something and you own MP's get their own way.

I attend a Grammar School (yeah yeah, take the mick, it's not all its cracked up to be - and no i don't board) which we have been known to rename a Queen Elizabeth's Royal Asylum School for the Young or QERASY (Said crazy), and instead of A2 Levels we get a clean bill of mental health (they grind us into the dust until we submit and pretend we're sane).

Ken,

Log onto the Daily Telegraph and the Times - you will find plenty of your fellow countrymen on their debating this issue. It's in the back copies.

1966,
two reasons 'you' won,
1. A Goal that was not over the line
2. Home advantage.
Didn't qualify for '66 because it was held there.

Not very sportsmanlike was it? He may be young, but it's no excuse. A public apology would go some way to making amends. He cant be serious in wanting to nurture a John McEnroe image off Court as well as on, can he?
We will want him to win, of course and he should realise there are a lot of Scots living in England.
"Work?" someone asks. Yes 37 yrs of it.

The verse in 'God Save the King' as originally written places the emphasis on the word 'rebellious', not on 'Scots'. If it were talking about Scots in general, the adjective woudl be redundant. In other words, it was referring to the Jacobites. Since that time, the anthem has gone through various editions and no longer contains the original verse (and other words changed too) - for the simple reason that the Jacobites were no longer a problem.

The point would be the same today if, in commemoration of 7/7, a verse referred to crushing 'terrorist Yorkshiremen'. Obviously, the focus would not be on Yorkshiremen in general, but rather on the Al-Qaida foursome who attacked London last year.

Need we be reminded that Scots and English were on both sides of the Jacobite-Hanoverian divide? Perhaps we should also remember why many Britons - both Scots and English - opposed the Jacobites. They remembered too well the despotism and religous bigotry of the Stuarts, and supported instead the 1689 settlement guaranteeing constitutional (not absolute) monarchy, parliamentary supremacy and religous liberty (incomplete until 1829, but would not have existed otherwise). Please note that I was born a Catholic.

Hence the anthem was effectively a plea for the maintenance of the gains of the 1688 revolution in the constitutional sphere against insurgents that would have restored a regime that threatened religous and politicalliberty (although, as I said, Catholic Emancipation had to wait until 1829 - partly as result of the anger at James' 'Catholic Design' to forcibly convert Britain with French military help).

Thus, the anthem was never anti-Scottish; it was anti-Jacobite. Moreover, the contemporary edition no longer contains the verse - nor has it done so for some time - simply because it's about as relevant as a verse that states 'and with a mighty rush, invading French to crush' with reference to Napoleon's aims.

On the subject of deep fat Mars Bars......... Nigella (good looking gal, that one) has a spiffing recipe for deep fried Bounty Bars in one of her books. Never tried it myself but certainly looks tasty.....

Lucifer - you seem to be mellowing ..........

Nigel. I think Lucifer has stopped taking cannabis with his haggis. God bless him. Well someone's got to the poor lost sole.

Gordon (273)

BOE Notes are not legal tender in Scotland, they are classed as legal currency tho.

http://www.rbs.com/about03.asp?id=ABOUT_US/OUR_HERITAGE/O...

Gerard (256).

Sorry you are incorrect. London would not be able to "push through" a settlement for oil. As I stated these are Scottish waters firmly established under maritime law. You are are most welcome to check.

As for implying that Ireland will sonmehow get poorer as a result of the eastern EU states I dont see your point. Ireland is no longer the recipient of substantive EU grants if that is your point but has managed to build its economy.

As for which country would get more grants - one wioth 50 million as opposed to one with 5 million - what absolute nonsense. You display complete ignorance of the workings of the EU. Allocations are based on needs. I would much rather have a direct vote as a nation rather than my vouice being delivered through the UK. It may have escaped your notice but any nation can block legisaltion in the EU - doesnt matter if you are big or small.

Excuse me Ken, i don't mean to be rude or critical (as you can read i tend to be light of heart), but who are you to tell US to lighten up and then comepletely turn it about and be quite blatantly rude?! It's not fair, not polite, and certainly not lightening the atmosphere.
If you feel you should reply to this, i will not be drawn into an argument so please don't expend your energy trying to bait me.

We were all getting along quite swimmingly until then - i can be feisty when i have need Brian, but i tend to be the peacemaker more than the instigator! :-D
Just a bit spooky as well! Maybe they have more than one school about the country...

Yes they do i think. Forgive me for being obtuse, but why? :-D
Hm. I notice Ken has not tried to argue with me - i hope i didn't make him leave, he has as much right to put his opinions across as i have the right to comment on them.

Peter 272. Please see my second post (No 215). I genuinely had no idea such a verse existed. I quite understand how it is offensive to Scots. However, I don't see how I'm responsible for quelling the Jacobite Rebellion any more than for Edward Longshanks' treatment of your forebears. It depends how long a memory you have for past wrongs, real or perceived. I am coming to the painful realisation that the only person imprisoned by resentment or bitterness is the one harbouring it.

You do have to understand, though, that after 9 years of PC under NuLab, the World Cup is the first time we English have been allowed to show the Cross of St George without being accused of racism - and even then the multicultural elite in the broadsheets and BBC alternately sniffs and sneers at us. In the Commission for Racial Equality we have a Government (taxpayer)-funded office pushing for positive discrimination in favour of minorities. And for Bliar and Tessa Jowell to have the nerve to fly the flag from their ministerial cars...words fail me.

I might have to check the Asylum network to see if there is anyone called 'Brian from Lisburn' in the alumni list :-D
Just to add to the legal tender discussion (my twopenny's worth so to speak) i have no problem using Scottish notes in England and vice versa, and i often travel between the two countries.

Helen #229
Maybe you sit all day with this crap infront of you, but I have a life, two jobs, two kids and a wife to look after.
Why would I waste my breath arguing with you!!
My post was correct, NO ONE has sent in a list of the great english world beaters yet.
I'll not hold my breath either.

Sad

Gordon @ 273

Interesting bit about the legal tender, as I said earlier, I have spent Scots notes in England - a lot of shops will accept them, however, most do not accept Channel Island ones.

Helen. I think that Alumni Associations, which are a recent development, were set up to facilitate links between ex students and the University which they attended and also, of course, between ex students allowing them to keep in touch with each other.

No, would i! I thought (perhaps wrongly) that we may both be part of a part of a chain of asylums - ahem - schools. Apologies for any offense caused. :-)

Allan, you don't get my point. Irel;and's current boom is partly the consequence of EU grants in the first place, and then excellent entrepeneurial skill building on that. But as the EU moves east, the richer nations will be expected to bail out the poorer - and Ireland will find itself in the same position vis-a-vis Bulgaria, etc. as Germany vis-a-vis Ireland in the 1970s onwards. Then, when that gets difficult, or if the economy goes sour, as it has done periodically, Ireland will be in dificulty.

Re. the waters, how will this apply if Shetland secedes? It's their waters, and they will have the support of London in any negotiations on secession. That was my point.

Re. your last point, you're ignoring the fact that Germany and other big nations (including the UK) are demanding changes in EU workings to favour voting based on population figures - and it is fairly certain that they will get it. Therefore, they will be able to amend policies on subsidies and investment in their favour. Germany wants to avoid a repeat of what happened when Ireland and Greece joined - that she had to bail their economies out, especially now that Eastren states are joining.

When this happens, England with 50 million will cope OK, but how will the voice of 5 million people be heard? At least in the UK the Scots can be sure that their voice will be well and truly heard, since the UK government has to take account of all constituent parts of Britain. In the EU parliament, the Scots would be competing with larger but poorer EU states for attention. They would also be potentially and probably actually competing with England - and as I said, guess who's going to win that one?

I didn`t really want to mention it John The scots have a real problem with it. Let`s hope Andy wins tomorrow he deserves to

Brian 290

interestingly Scots notes are not " legal tender " in Scotland either

from your web link

Legal tender
There are more Royal Bank banknotes circulating in Scotland than those of any other bank but, with the exception of temporary provisions during both World Wars, Scottish banknotes have never been 'legal tender' even in Scotland. Today, no banknote qualifies as 'legal tender' north of the Border, although they remain legal currency. The notes may also circulate freely in England and Wales, although branches of the Royal Bank there may not issue them

so in Scotland no note is " legal tender " so i guess the point im making is that the term legal tender is a misnomer ..."legal currency" works for me !

Yes, shouldn't have mentioned it, especially when your facts are wrong.
I am sure you can wave your union jacks tomorrow when Andy wins. Maybe he has english relatives to hang your hat on ;-)
By the way, if england win the world cup - good on them, it will be the first time they have done it outwith their country, with the advantages that that brings.
I have no problem with '66, it is just you lot seem to mention it all the time.

Interesting thing about the England tops, I've noticed, most people seem to prefer the red (away) shirt.
However, as I stated earlier - I am a Chelsea fan and could not at any time ever, support Arsenal - who wear red. So I cannot bring myself to wear the away shirt. The home one will do fine for me.

Paul @181

You sound a deep thinker.

Yes Ron; but what have Scotland ever achieved? sweet F A.

Cornish Lucifer! There not English either.

Or soul even.

Or he has had one too many strong lagers and has fallen asleep.

210 - Alison

I feel violated! :-(

Have you been to Glasgow Helen?

Lucifer is completely twisted. He/she is still ranting since getting a verbal kicking from the English on Tuesday.

Paul, you must be another jock having a rant.

The old school motto: you dont have to be QERASY to study here but it helps

Brian, I am chilled, how could anyone get upset with this!!
By the way, have you been out with your england top on yet?

Gerard; You should have been a diplomat.

And when that day arrives; you will be crowned King Alfred of Wessex!

Gerard, London

Again, as previously mentioned, why the hell should we support England? We're Scottish. If English folk want to support Scotland thats their choice. If they want to support our opposition of the time, again, thats their choice. I, personally, couldnt give two hoots who our Southern Neighbours support. I honestly dont understand why this issue has upset so many people. The other week Archie Gemmell was on TV for the World Cups 50 greatest goals. He essentially made the same statement, he didnt support England. I dont hear anyone moaning about this. As for a UK team I seriously doubt that would have much support from either Northern Ireland, Scotland or Wales as it would likely be made up of predominatly English players. I, for one, would not support a UK team.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

Scott 157 is speechless

YAWN
Ps Kelvin was a nutter.

Is it the educated elite of a country that uses internet news sites?

a verbal kicking from the Sassenach filth ..... aye right you are ya subsidy junkie :D

Are you insulting me again Helen?

Lucifer: how many cans of strong lager have you had today and did you have your fried mars bar for your dinner?

David, I know what you mean. I'm sure (hoping?) this is all just a storm in a tea cup!

To Brian, 153 - let's see how a manager - especially if it was England's turn to coach - would decide? I seem to remember that one of the finest British players ever was George Best from Northern Ireland! I'm sure the rest of the UK would be able to produce some fine players.

To Dryden - I know what you mean, and as a Celt myself I loathe Celtic Anglophobia. I was partly raised with it, but I think it's racist, petty and self-demeaning and frankly it's gone beyond a joke. What better way to heal relationships than a united British team in a EU competition! We should also remember that there are vanishingly few English people who cannot boast a recent Scots, Irish or Welsh forebear.

On a wider note, in London we're getting lots of Poles and Lithuanians coming to live. I'm fine with this (they're good neighbours in our street); my point is that it should remind everyone that the EU has expanded eastwards, and most of these economies are basket-cases, hence the migration to the UK. Think also what will happen when the rest of the Balkan nations join. Britain is on the periphery of Europe, unlike Germany which is at the centre. The focus of the EU will turn to the east, with grants being centred on that part of the continent.

The British need to realise this, and stop this verbal mini-civil war, since our place in the EU (to which I'm committed) will be affected for decades by the EU's expansion. Britons have enough to worry about without engagaing in in-fighting. Perhaps if they were all able to cheer the same team in at least football competition, reconcilation will be made easier. If there's one thing this World Cup, the comments of the Scots First Minister and the reaction to Andy Murray shows, the British - all of them - take their football very seriously (too seriously perhaps).

Why are we English getting sensitive? (i) 9 years of a government and BBC dominated by Scots and run by and for the benefit of certain minority groups, ramming political correctness down our throats and seeking to wipe out every vestige of English identity, let alone expression thereof. (ii) Scotland’s choice of anthem for rugby - if the English had chosen a song with such sentiments there would have been howls of outrage from the multicultural elites on both sides of the border! (iii) The double standards - Welsh and Scottish nationalism are OK, but English nationalism is by definition racist. (iv) The West Lothian Question. Need I go on? And you Scots wonder why we have a sense-of-humour failure. All I can say is roll on the day when England declares UDI from the ‘United’ Kingdom and the EU, even if it takes civil war!

No, I'm just a wee bit bored of this debate.
Let poeple support whatever team they wish.
Long live sporting rivalries
long live freedom!

Ron 217 Glad I'm keeping you amused. My sole purpose in life is to make everybody happy!

Helen. I'm going to report you to the Archbishop of Canterbury.

THIS IS PATHETIC BEHAVIOR - BRITISH PEOPLE SHOULD BE ABOVE THIS SORT
CHILDESHNESS

Brian grow up.

153 & 154. Having watched the England matches they haven't exactly set the pitch on fire. Yes they do play with skill,(well one or two players have some) but guts,determination,passion and a fire in their bellys are distinctly lacking.
At least Scotland will go out and have a go, far more entertaining than watching overpaid primadonna's bore the opposition to tears. An own goal against Paraguay, it took 83 mins to score against T & T, a good first half against the Swedes and then they reverted back to normal against Ecuador. Boring,disjointed,un-imaginative,lacking in all areas. Still think they will win against Portugal,possibly on penalties. Argentina,Germany and Brazil,they have the bit between their teeth and they wont be easy opposition and Sven's men aren't in the same league as the other aforementioned teams.
England might be good,but there not that good and certainly not the world's best. Although SKY news and the Beeb try to tell us different. Just hope the German police are ready for the bad behaviour and hooliganism thats going to follow England's exit out the WC.

Breaking news on Sky - British referee Graham Poll has retired from international refereeing after making a coo of it during the Croatia/Australia game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he representing England, or did I just imagine the whole thing? (He was the best referee at the World Cup, don't you know!)

NOT BRITISH GLENN,
SCOTTISH :-)

It's hardly suprising is it ? Sad, yes, surprising, no. I think the English are well aware of the attitude of many Scots to them, particularly the Nats. The big problem has been McConnel imho. He said what he said because he knew it was a vote winner in Scotland. Bit of a red rag to the English really and I think the problem's growing. I think separating the TV media would help, with Scotland having its own infrastructure and separate broadcasters. They could restrict mention of England if that's what Scots want.

Well said Stephanie (194) I couldn't agree more. Maybe others should go back to this post and read it.

Lucifer

My old adversary - nice to see you're as rational as ever.

Helen - no, it doesn't make you bad, and I respect your point of view.

PS Unlucky on being half-English!

;-)

Alfred 161

Have you ever listened to all verses of the National Anthem of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and N. Ireland? which the English football team seem to have adopted as their own?

Re: 161 Alfred of Wessex - well said my friend. To borrow a phrase from John Lennon, we English are the niggers of the world! Everyone likes to tell us what we should be thinking, doing and what they perceive we've done wrong, usually when they're in England of course! Until comparatively recently, we have rolled over and acquiesced, but no more - arise Englishmen everywhere and be proud of your heritage and nationality!

247 Nigel -
That must mean my Nana is one of his hell's angels...... would explain a lot. >:D >:D

lucifer suits my taste in music ie heavy metal

Well Paul its legal where it counts! Hehe

Stephanie @ 108 - Good point!

THis news article is false... while it`s true there are lots of comments from irate English people, it seemed to me that the majority were Scots in support of him.

So... After a day off, as there was no football, the Scotsman finds another way to raise Anglo / Scottish tensions. Can't wait til May!

What is interesting is that when the boot is on the other foot, the Scots become defvensive and the number of "posts" more tha doubles!

I have always supported Scotland, unless playing England, but having lived in Scotland for 3 years, will never do so again. I hope the miserable, whineing git Murray gets stuffed and as I'm there tomorrow it would be great if he wasn't.

I am in London at the moment and just read a great piece in the Standard about "little Portugal" in South Lambeth and the fantastic atmosphere there is there in the build up to the game on Saturday. On my way to the place I'm staying tonight, I'm going to go by there to get some of the atmosphere. Couldn't happen in Scotland.

We need to ask why.

I've read / heard in recent days that hating the English isn't racist, because the English aren't a pure race and that telling racist jokes is "banter". Only in Scotland.

Ewen of Amesbury good for you. I wish more Scots thought like you.

Ha ha Alfred.
Mow you know how we felt for 900 years

"equally as 'racist'"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you mentally imparied. What happened that day in Dunblane does not compare to anything on a footballing level. It has NOTHING to do with Andy himself.

For People to draw on this as some sort of pathetic attempt at revenge is more equal to the Dunblane incident.

I cannot believe someone can be so pathetic as to level the murdering of innocent people with supporting the WORST team in the Tournament.

I am actually so angry at reading that.. YOU ARE PATHETIC!

Anyone else think Lucifer is a bit biased?

QH @ 84, how exactly is the comparison to Germany absurd? This whole article stems for the fact Murray said he would not support the English team, why should he, he isn't English and sees England as Scotland's greatest rivals.

As many English posters have been at pains to point out, England don't see Scotland as a major rival because we are pish and as such don't provide a challenge. This challenge comes more from Germany who many English fans see as their main rival. Do you get the comparison now?

Re: Brian @ 172 - as for the National Anthem, EVERYONE I speak to in England abhors it and want either Jerusalem or Land of Hope & Glory. You are misguided when you say the football team has adopted it, I expect they're told to use it by the political elite, which has already been mentioned many times above, is overpopulated with Scottish Socialist MPs!

Most Scots in England and most English in Scotland get on just fine. I don't support England, nor do I wish them any ill. Let's face it: it's a bunch of guys chasing a bit of leather round a field. It has no real importance at all. If all footie fans are supposed to be so reasonable then what is the point of following a team? Presumably all Celtic fans should be cheering on Rangers in the UEFA cup?? Or Man City fans hoping that United win..? And English fans never support Germany's opponents do they!! Just because 3 nutters get violent doesn't mean we Scots are all like that any more than all English people are racists because tens of thousands vote for a neo-Nazi political party. For the record I am 25% English and my wife is 100% English. P.S. great point KD!

Also @ Stephanie and Linsey - Scottish notes are NOT legal tender. Just another way our superiors down south like to make us feel like second class citizens.

Do none of you people do any work

Hello Fraser, they thought you were English! and yep, same old 'debate'. There seems to be a lot of support for Murray from the English press and, considering what he said (and I know he's young and entitled to support whom he chooses and wear whichever shirt he wants) from the English people at Wimbledon also.
ps Hello Janis too, hope you'll have a great holiday.

Steve 177 I said they seem to have adopted it.
I also remember reading an article a few years ago in one of the newspapers in which many England fans stated the would still sing GSTQ even if the anthem was changed to something else because it was synonymous with the England football team,

Alison 97... his ambition, as you say, was what I pointed out above. the union of the crowns (not the same as the act of union... union of the crowns was simply the scottish king becoming the english king..) He "made sure he succeeded Elizabeth" and did so and he believed it was his divine right. But I believe there was also something in there about him wanting it because, as I said, it was 'sticking it to the english'. Which I believe, though I could be wrong, had to do with his mother and part revenge. But I could be wrong, it was an impression I had. Like I'd read it years ago but can't substantiate it now.

I concede that i was vage before.

QH, thanks for your comments but I am not misguided about North Sea Oil. My original point wasn't about how much oil revenues would bring to an independent Scotland but rather what North Sea Oil, the majority of which lies within Scottish waters has brought to the UK goverment. You have basically accused all Scots as somehow being subsidy junkies. My argument is that in fact the biggest subsidy junkie is probably London. And as for North Sea oil disappearing soon think again QH. Here's some info from the UK Offshore Operators' Association:
http://www.ukooa.co.uk/media/view-press.cfm/383

i am interested in the comment at point 3 :"Around 34 billion barrels of oil and gas have been recovered to date, with remaining reserves estimated at a further 28 billion barrels."
This doesn't sound like it is going to run out soon.
I find it very interesting that you take the time to look at a website for a Scottish newspaper and you appear on the website telling us what we should do. Why do you bother? Do you want us all to be quiet and do as you say? I laugh when I read your comments that say:
"Scotland is part of the United Kingdom whether you like it or not so your loyalties should lie to other home nations before you support other countries. Some of you might be resentful that you lost to the English and are part of the United Kingdom."
What? I thought we were a democracy.
"You get to make decision in the House of Parliament on issues that effect England and the English can not vote on issues that only affect Scotland."
We have had this experience for nearly 300 years!
For nearly 300 years Scotland has been controlled by a huge in-built majority that the English always had in th UK parliament. It is only until devolution that Scotland could take decisions for itsel

Cindy, Cindy, you state
Dissing non-equality for women?
I think Andy is all for equality. Let the women play the same number of sets, then lets discuss, even then, it is a commercial business - sport, and the mens game is far more popular (whatever you may think), their play is far, far better than the womens game.
When I was a Police constable, the females took home more pay than me at the end of the week. Equality don't give me it. I have never been in a job that had males paid more than females.

Anyhow, to the point. It is one thing to slag of a 'mature' politician, it is another to do it to an 18 year old boy. Some of the comments on Andy's website were repulsive. If the foot had been on the other shoe I can only imagine the responce by the over sensitive english.

Patrick #87 states
a car in England with a Scottish flag on its bumper passes without incident - what would happen to a car with an English flag on it in many parts of modern Scotland?
Well Patrick, you should maybe come home sometime. There are quite a few english flags on cars here, with no incident!!
Last time I was 'down south' with my car which had a saltire on it, I was nearly rammed of the road by some english arse who was giving me the finger etc..
Take your english rose coloured glasses of.
Funny how scots who desert their Country become British.

@ Brian 170. Yes I am a Jock and damn proud of it!

ABE - Vindo em Portugal!!!!

I'll support who I want and won't be told otherwise by small-minded English morris dancers! ;)

Linsay 98

Scottish Banks notes are not classed as legal tender.

Linsey @ 98

I know what you mean about the problems with Scottish banknotes in England - it has been happening for years. My Scots uncle tells a story of when he was in England during the 60s (might have even been 1966!!) and filled his car up with petrol, handed the guy a Scots £5 note and was told "We don't take them here", my uncle replied "Well, that's up to you, it's legal tender and it's all I've got - siphon the petrol out if you want" , the man backed down and my uncle got his change. (Oh those were the days, eh, when you could fill your tank up and get change from a fiver!!).

Probably the person who served you was just ignorant, Linsey, you should have demanded to see the manager. Scots notes are legal tender in England...............although I always change mine at the border when I come home!!!

Rufus, I was wondering where you'd got to - good post! Equal pay for equal play!

David #110,
Sorry, but you are typical english blinkered person. You accept anti scottish behaviour, then, surprise, surprise, you balme the scots for 'starting it'.
I hope you are Laughing at yourself, I am ;-)

For god sake Andy,,theres enough anti English feeling in the world without a small mind like yours and its pointless remarks,,roll on anyone who plays,,and beats you!

AJ @ 111, I refer you to the following excerpt on British bank notes taken from Wikipedia:

Bank of England notes are the only banknotes that are legal tender in England and Wales. Scottish, Northern Ireland, Jersey, Guernsey and Manx banknotes are not legal tender in England and Wales. However, they are not illegal under English law and creditors and traders may accept them if they so choose.

In Scotland and Northern Ireland no banknotes – not even ones issued in those constituent countries – are legal tender...

While I agree that Scotland is subjected to pro-English commentating and journalism throughout the World Cup and European Championships, the whole of Scotland outwith the Glasgow area is subjected to pro-Old Firm commentating and journalism on a daily basis.

While the former is tedious and annoying, based as it is on unfounded arrogance, the latter is sickening in the extreme. Two clubs whose supporters have exported religious bigotry to the corners of the globe remain the darlings of the football establishment and the press in Scotland. God only knows why.

Why don't people north of the border get worked up about that instead?

i cannot stand the idea that is "Br*tian" ... country does not exist

You have got your priorities all wrong Ken: chill out before you burn out.

Linsey I would expect you to support Scotland as your first team but after that other home nation teams that are part of the United Kingdom. As Scotland are part of the United Kingdom and benefit (as we all do) from being a part of it. Not least if you see my post 61 even the Scottish Parliaments’ own statistics show that even if all oil revenues (which will drop off dramatically in the future) are included Scotland costs the United Kingdom £3bn a year. So a bit of gratitude would not go a miss by supporting other home nation teams!

I often think this “support anyone but England” is down to jealously over how successful England is as a country (not so much in sport although we are generally more successful than Scotland). As mentioned previously both Scotland and England through the Union have contributed to each others success and I believe we are both better off keeping it. I wonder though who would be worse off if it was broken (I expect Scotland would be and you would regret it once it is too late)!

How sad it is that a nice wee scots laddie is pilloried and barracked for saying what he feels. Why should he support England when the majority of his countrymen don't? And why should anybody care what he says,anyway? He is in the public eye as a sportsman, not as politician or even someone with their brain in the right place.
And speaking of Michael Ballack, don't the England football supporters wish they had a world-class player.

Linsey

James VI and I probably did say he was 'sticking it to the English' when he came down here and blamed them (with the help of some Scots nobles) for what happened to his mother. However, he was careful not to let the English know that ............... but did fill his court up with members of the Scottish nobility, which upset the English..........blah, blah, blah is this starting to remind you of something?

James was never that popular with the English but his grandson, Charles II (a Stuart King) is remembered as the most popular and loved King that we ever had.
Regards.

Paul @ 115

I stand corrected - mind you I've used them down here and they have been accepted - you can always change them at the bank, in any case......... I think the exchange rate is the same!!!

Patrick @ 87 a Scot by his own admission has made 2 very good points. 1. Most and I mean most English would automatically support any of the other Home Nations if England were not playing or being represented. 2. If a Scot wears any Scottish apparel in England no one bothers, but if I were to wear an overtly English T-shirt in Scotland for instance, I bet the reaction would be the opposite, if not downright threatening.
As for Stephanie @ 82, English subs? Surely, British subs serving as part of the Royal Navy. If Scotland doesn't want them please send them to Plymouth (Devonport) because the West Country IS one of the most impoverished areas of the UK and a. could do with the extra employment and b. doesn't 'enjoy' the same tax spending as Scotland. While you're at it, why not close ALL of the defence sites in Scotland namely, RAF Kinloss, Rosyth, Fort George and the Army Personnel Centre (Glasgow)to name but a few and relocate them to the South of England which is strategically and geographically more suitable.

Hi there AJ

Quick question for you. Do you think (and I'll grant you this takes some imagining!) that if scotland were playing in the world cup final against, say, spain, that English football fans would genuinely hand-on-heart want Scotland to win?

Janis,

Good on you - I can't believe I missed that one!

brian 120...

legal tender is defined by if it says the word 'sterling' on it. scottish notes are legal tender. In the same way as the irish notes are also legal tender (and widely accepted in Scotland, I wouldn't know about England though) We accept money if it is authentic and says 'pound sterling'.

They have the picture of the queen and everything. /sarcasm

Brian, Lisburn. Don't think the inhabitants of Cumbria, Northumberland and Tyne and Wear would be to happy to read your comment as they would be done to a crisp if the wall was to be nuked.

QH 84.... and I'm not English nor part of England. So why do you want me to support them?

I think that too much has been made about what are (I think) just some humorous, light-hearted and harmless comments. There is absolutely no reason to expect Scots to support England; they support Scotland. However, to say that you do not support the English football team is one thing, to state that you support anyone who is playing England (and really meaning it) is quite another. It is an example of prejudice and is incredibly small-minded.

I remember Billy Connolly saying some time ago that what was once just a musical hall joke, has now become something a little bit more sinister…

Having just finished packing for Scottish holiday had to come back and see how posts going, Main point English are just retaliating to ABE by ABA Tit for tat school playground stuff reallyWedon`t want Land of Hope etc. as National Anthem The words all about going out and conquering other countries, thats behind us I hope

David - I'd rather be a skirt wearing caber tosser, than a bell wearing hanky waver!

:)

Steve @183 - I am a deep thinker, if you want my views read a lot further up before all the politicians joined the debate. ;)

If Andy and Scotland want to support Portugal and Trinidad and Tobago respectively, who's to stop them? I, personally, am half scottish and half english and yes i support England - does that make me bad? Am i unpatriotic to Scotland then because half of my blood is celtic and half anglo-saxon and i choose to support the england team? Do i then defile my celtic blood? Or should i be supporting Germany, because, for all said and done, the majority of us are of german or nordic heritage? If we were going to be completely politically correct we should all be supporting Norway, Sweden, Germany, Finland and other Nordic/Scandinavian countries in equal measure because that's where we all originate from, whether we live in Scotland or England.
What a load of nonsense.
The only thing that worries me about the world cup is the fact that we British (and it has to be said, unfortunaltely mainly English) tend to cause problems with our hooliganism wherever we go, and it worries me that it may stir up old rivaliries long dead which should be forgotten.
And anyway - what kind of a democratic country are we living in when a young lad can't jokily cast aspertions without all the tabloid papers jumping on him and calling him goodness knows what. Unfortunately tabloids tend to be the most populous newspapers in Britain which means people will get only their version of what Andy said and not what he actually said/meant.
This doesn't apply to all of us - naturally the Scotsman is a broadsheet and therefore unbiased (probably) in it's views.

Helen: Did I say that I hated the English?

Hi Ron. Just thought that
it would be fun to nuke Hadrian's Wall wherever it is. Are'nt the tribes of Cumbria, Northumberland and Tyne and Wear just southern scottish clans albeit with a wee bit more intelligence than there more northenly brothers?

CA totally agree about the old firm part.

I live outside Glasgow and I used to support Celtic based purely on the fact my grandfather played for them. Now I cannot stand the hatred that I gave up on Celtic and support my local team Hamilton Accies instead (hardly a fantastic team but not bigoted).

I think there has been a tremendous overreaction to a young man stating he would not be supporting England at the world cup. Theres thousands of young boys with the same opinion as him here, what will you all be saying about those boys? I stated in an earlier post that I would not be supporting england but I do wish them well.

Its all about mentality, how can you support a team when you cannot truely become passionate about them winning as it is not your country. There is a tremendous backlash happening which to be fair holds some good points, the midlothian question being very important but I do think it is time to let the issue lie. Its only a game of football.

We need some perspective when there are bigger things to worry about for example 30000 children dying every day. Terrorism. Blair taking us into another phoney war!

BRIAN, LISBURN - Nuke Hadrians Wall? The last time I looked this was in England. Surely that would be a bit silly?

QH (116)

The document you refer to is highly contested and full of estimates/assumptions. HM Treasury confirmed that from 1979-1997 Scotland contributed £27bn more than it recieved. You are welcome to verify that. Another point - Scottish oil revenue of £12.5bn-£14bn will be transferred to the Treasury this year. This is growing not shrinking. The Scottish block "grant" is only £28bn - we have a very large financial services, communications, life sciences, energy and food and drinks sectors. Are you seriously suggesting that all these sectors do not exceed this level? I dont think so. Anyway, if you think we are a burden on you then why are English/ Unionist politicians desperate to hold onto us?

Paul 106, lol.

Also, I'm female (obviously), and i agree with Murray about the pay. Once Wimbledon allow the women to play more sets and be on the green longer THEN they should be paid equally. That's a matter for Wimbledon not being equal in play, NOT in money stakes.

That's me not being against equality, on the contrary, I find it highly repugnant that women don't get paid the same in this day and age as the male counterparts for doing the same job. But in this case, it's still not the same job. Semantics? Maybe... but women need to be playing more before they earn more.

Also.. instead of starting a new post...

I think there's a fundamental difference in expectation in England as there is in Scotland. Though I'm sure someone will disagree.

England see themselves more as champions, want to do well... and do in many sports. Scotland are used to being a diddy team in everything, in fact, we revel in it. So I project that onto Britain too. The fact that Henman went out yesterday.. well I expected it and revel in the british ineptitude, playing an opponent like federer or not. I also don't think Murray will stay in much longer either. But hey, let's party when they go crashing out.

Now I can't remember what prompted me to point this out but it was a post somewhere above that I now can't find... but I will say this...

if Scotland were doing well, we would probably milk it for all it's worth too, however, I think we'd be doing it mainly in a response akin to 'who's yer daddy now?!'. As in... 'we're just as good as you'. At the same time, we never EXPECT anyone in Scottish sport to do well and all the way up expect to be out at the next round, the English, I think, expect to go all the way and win. I think in that attitude comes the idea that everyone should support them. It's just a feeling I have and I can't substantiate it at all though.

Different mentality. And now I think my post is confusing but I'm putting it in a

Re:

The singing of the National Anthem - God Save the Queen'. The offending verse has been deleted from the official version to avoid causing offence to the Scots. It is highly, unlikely, that the average football supporter is even aware of it's existance. (Don't tell them, please, they'll probably go out and learn it).
The verse was included after the Jacobite rebellion - which contrary to popular opinion was not between the Scots and English but was about religion (as most things were in those days). There were many English Jacobites and the Hanoverian army (Crown) had many Scots nobles and soldiers in it's ranks.

If Scotland is such a great nation, why are many of the Scots contributors to this debate living in countries other than Scotland?
Scottish currency, you will find, is not legal tender in England and can therefore be refused as payment for goods.

David - that sounds like a cheap shot. Sod the taxes, I don't support England because I'm not English and I am well aware that Scotland are pish.

For the record, I will be watching the England game in the pub on Saturday (wearing a rather fetching black Portugal top) with some of my English friends (wearing rather vile red England tops). Its all about the banter!

Morris dancing is for pansies, caber tossing is a manly sport - you know it!

I'm a Englishman, married to a Scot but also with Scottish parenthood. If Scotland were in England's place, I would be supporting them all the way. The issue of the Scotland vs England has not been helped by a foolish First Minister using the World Cup to further his political ambitions. It was an irresponsible position to take. Can you imagine Tony Blair making such a comment? I don't think so. Scotland is a proud country, it doesn't need generated nationalism. Andy Murray shouldn't been concerning himself with allegiances, just doing well at Wimbledon. Plenty of English people will give him 100% support. Its time that these cheap jibes stopped and the people making them concentrated on some real work, like doing their job!!!

Just thought i'd drop by and see how this was progressing...some funny comments, some plain daft!

AJ (111) Re Scottish bank notes...i remember when i worked in a pub, back in the day, we would get an English customer who would come in before heading back south for one reason (no not my patter) to get one pound notes...he did it purely cause it wound up the landlord in his home town. He was a character that one.

Sorry a lot of you were talking rubbish so i'll let you get back to it! Enjoy!

Paul 196 -
Ah well, never mind, you can't have everything can you?! lol
See - if i can take the mick out of my 'caber throwing whilst wearing wool skirts' heritage, as well as my 'mad dogs and englishmen go out in the midday sun' half, why can't everyone just see we're all of the same heritage, more or less, religion (as always) just got in the bloomin' way!
Darn Elizabeth 1 and Mary Queen of Scots - life would have been much easier if they had just said 'what the heck are we arguing about? A god we've never seen? Let's just forget about it and go hawking.'
(A rather simplified view, i know, but it gets the point across!)

Stephanie wrote "We have done alot for the UK, indeed for the world."

That's true, although, as a scientist, I would prefer you to remember James Clerk Maxwell or Lord Kelvin instead of Baird. Before nationalism intervenes, you should also remember that Fleming's work might have remained useless without the brilliant work of Florey (an Australian) and Chain (a German Jewish refugee) working in Oxford; the three shared the Nobel prize in 1945.

87. Patrick. Could not agree more. I moved the other way having moved from England to Scotland over 20 years ago. Distinctly remember one of my old neighbours (in England) painting the front of their house with the Saltire during the 78 world cups. And we joined them to cheer on Scotland. Could an Englishman paint his house in Scotland with the cross of St George now? Absolutely not. But the real concern is that I doubt now that a Scotsman could actually paint their house in England now either. During the early days of working in Scotland (and I am still here and would not consider living anywhere else) one of guys I worked with told me "we (Scotland) do not want or need your support" when I recounted the story of the house painting, and that has sort of stuck with me evere since, as until that time I had no idea about anti English feelings. Once the media bias is pointed out it is indeed evident that some (not all)of the complaints are indeed justified. However, I do get the feeling that Englands 1966 world cup win is actually mentioned more in the Scottish press than in England. It has now become a self perpetuating story. Does it bother me that some people support the teams England play against? No, not at all.

that's interesting.. the wiki thing about bank notes... but I have to wonder.. if scotland and northern ireland have no legal tender... how do we pay for things??

they aren't illegal though, so why not accept them?

I do have to point out that wiki is added to by general populace and I'd prefer to see an official government site about notes and not that one though. But that's me being picky.

It is something that a lot of people wonder about and never do seem to know the answer to. I'm actually surprised to see one somewhere? I wonder if it's antiquated law though, like it still being legal to shoot Scots in carlysle

111 wrote "it's legal tender"

In fact, Bank of England notes are the only notes that are legal tender in England and Wales. Scottish and Northern Ireland banknotes (and Jersey, Guernsey, Manx and Gibraltar coinage and banknotes) are not legal tender in England and Wales. However, they are not illegal, so can be accepted by traders and, in practice, most traders have accepted Scots notes in England for decades. The Bank of England covers this in their FAQ:

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/about/faqs.htm

Linsey 125.

http://www.scotbanks.org.uk/notes.htm

See 3rd para from the end

and I am scottish by the way

Fiesty also!

No John; we are all lunatics on day release from the asylum. And Yoursel?

I would once gain make a suggestion: there should be only one football team representing the UK. When players from England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland playing under one flag - the United Kingdom - this issue won't arise again in the future. Furthermore there will be more choice of players from a bigger pool to build a stronger squad. Cheers. [Bjorn]

As a Scotsman who has lived in England for a number of years I have become increasingly concerned about the bad feeling growing between Scotland and England at different levels of society. I personally blame at least two things for this:
The SNP - who's biggoted election broadcasts have at the last two elections caused genuine and widespread suprise and hurt here in England. This has been in part responsible for what seems to be a rise of English nationalism. Secondly the Film 'Bravehart', a good film but based entirely on Hollywood fiction, but has fed prejudices and myths. The result of all of this has sadly been increasingly morose getto mentality Scots, with real chips on their shoulders - see last weeks Economist Newspaper.

Two final things - and I am saying this as a Scot:

If Scotland was currently in England's position in the World Cup - upto recently at least - almost all English football fans would have supported Scotland - it would not have occured to them to do otherwise.
Secondly a car in England with a Scottish flag on its bumper passes without incident - what would happen to a car with an English flag on it in many parts of modern Scotland? Is this the sign of a healthy Scottish society?

All getting really boring now, it would seem that if you are a highflier in sport then you are some sort of demi- god. Who cares anyway- is this not a country of free speech? Has there not always been rivalry between Scots/ English? but now it is re- named as racism !!!

Only today my daughter called me from her school trip to an English theme park- that they had been subjected to anti Scottish abuse.

Matt @ 86 YES that`s the point I tried to make ABE !!!! I`v enjoyed thses weeks of Anglo/Scottish debate. Must go now and pack for holiday in Argyll (stunning place) We are debating with kids as to whether to take St George ping pong ball on car radio off. Sling it out at Carlisle I reckon, it probably won`t mean a thing after Saturday anyway I suspect

This all down to the media. Most English people can relate to how who you Scots think. The English are not your enemies, the conniving politicians and the media are. You are a proud people and we would love to be as you are, if the truth be known.

Qh 42.... we didn't lose in the end. We won. And then James decided to unite the crowns and he did so because he felt joining us was sticking it to the English.

And if anyone harks on about there being so many Scots in parliament, then I guess James got what he wanted!

And home nation or not I can support who I want? Why are people telling me i shoudl suport them. Maybe some Scots support Paraquay or T&T because they have that blood in them and not English? Maybe because, as McConnell said, he's supporting the home PLAYERS before the home nation and there's nothing wrong with that. The Scotland WC campaign was great fun and I'm glad it was around... and let's face it, the song was better than the 20 English songs that stormed the charts this year...

Emma @ 89

I am sorry that your daughter and her classmates suffered anti Scottish abuse in England.

The only excuse is that people are like sheep - they are fed propaganda and rubbish by the newspapers and they believe it.

I hope that this experience will not colour their view of all the English

wow! I didn't realised how out of hand this can get. I am only here to dis Murray. I am tired when they used to play-up Henman (play down Rusedski) at Wimbledon and then they start to play-up Murray. Just way too much. Henman Hill and Murray Field. Barf!! Give it a rest, and let us enjoy the tennis. A friend and I agreed, maybe Murray should lose just so we dont hear so much of it, constantly Murray this and Murray that. If he is worth all this, then its fine, but all he is, is a pimpled face, loud mouth, ignorant,arrogant, conceited, pompous ass. He thinks he is a great ? No, never, not with a personality of a pond scum. Which rock did he crawl out from? Dissing non-equality for women? Which stage of revolution did he get stuck in?

Can everyone who's stating that 18 year old andy murray is getting nothing more than he deserves just check out some of the postings on his blog. Seriously, anyone who things that it's acceptable is as worthless as the posters in question. Anyone but Andy Murray T shirts are funny, stuff about Dunblane are not. I also think it's utterly pathetic that a portion of the English nation are chosing to vent their spleens on an 18 year old boy.

Any Englishman who can honestly say that they would really, really like Scotland to win the world cup, i applaud you. As for me, from now on I'm going to try really hard to pretend that I want england to win the world cup, before the tanks come rolling in.

Err..........Linsey, sorry but I'm not sure what you are on about.
If you mean James VI and I - then, the reason he came to England - and the subsequent union of the crowns was because he was ambitious and was named as the heir to Elizabeth I by her. I don't think he ever returned to Scotland after succeeding to the English throne.

The Act of Union came some 100 years later in the reign of his grandaughter, Queen Anne.

As I said in my previous post - the Scots have punched above their weight in the union for centuries. The history of the UK has been enriched by them.

balderdash

AJ at 60... this isn't really aimed entirely at you but I do have a slightly unrelated question.

Why don't places in England accept the Scottish notes? When we quite happily take your money? I was down in England last year, went into a shop to pay, handed over my entirely LEGAL tender and was refused because it was a Scottish note. And this shop was a national branded shop, not a tiny unknown, one-off store.

Now I always save the English notes I get so I can buy things down there even though I obviously shouldn't have to. Not all shops refuse but enough do for it to be annoying.

And I was given excuses about the bank of england charging to change them over to english notes, which a) makes it sound like foreign currency and b) again, is illegal.

Does anyone actually know why this happens?

I'm not trying to stir anything, I'm just genuinely curious.

How interesting that in all of this commentary, nobody mentioned Andy Murray's ill-considered comments about the pay inequality between women and men, i.e. that women 'don't deserve' the same pay as men (remember, too, his stupid comments about himself and an opponent having 'played like women'). Surely this is a more important issue in essence than the over-hyped "Who are you supporting or not in the World Cup?" and more telling about Andy Murray. How I would love to see either of the Williams sisters take him on...

KD, the female tennis players don't play nearly as many sets during a tournament. Do you think it would be fair for people to do the same job as you, but work less hours, and still get paid the same? Equal pay for equal hours is one thing, but this is ridiculous. I hope Andy always says what he thinks - makes for a more interesting personality than Tim, Greg or Pete Sampras.

To Patrick (87)

SNP Broadcasts have caused hurt in England - Forgive me for pointing out - but they are not shown in England.

And does anyone in England care about the SNP and Scottish Independence anyway.

You mention Ghetto mentality - no its just a fact that more and more Scots want what other nations take for granted - Independence.

For 300 years Scotland has been told that it couldn`t survive on its own- for 300 years Scotlands suffered because of this mentality - the Union will not survive much longer.

Lets look post union to a time where Scotland & England are equal nations with a mature relationship.

Do you remember the story about the man that got arrested as it was thought he was using forged notes?

I've had that problem as well, it is a strange one. I think it may just be down to shops being unsure if they are fraudulent.

Interesting piece on Reporting Scotland about Murray has just been on. They were interviewing english fans at the tennis and the reaction was pretty much positive. I am so tired of all the comments about him being racist, its over a game of football, very fed up.

and piffle, BRIAN?

Just my 2 penn'orth:

Andy Murray, ill advised comment. What did he think would happen? Needs a course in PR. Not a particulary nice bloke anyway judging by the interviews I've seen with him so I couldn't really give a toss one way or t'other.

Oh goody, the oil money - I used to work in the oil industry in London but I lost my job of 14 years when my company relocated to their Aberdeen sub-office. UK continental shelf oil revenues are a pittance to most companies so the reserves couldn't be developed at arms length from London. Much of the real revenue (salaries) stays in the Grampian area where it's spent by the English/US/French/Norwegian families who live there and by the companies making their staff's lives comfortable. Remember, big oil companies get their revenues from across the globe. The oil on the UK continental shelf is horrendously difficult to extract with complex geology and appalling sea conditions and there isn't really enough of it there in any one space to warrant digging it up any more but many multi-nationals use the expertise gained from exploiting difficult UK reserves elsewhere. Consider yourselves lucky that the companies are there at all, without them Aberdeen would still be a fishing village (with no fish) with a cottage hospital and RGIT would be a tech. Joke McConnell and Salmond (many of my Scots ex-colleagues hated him) and their ilk ought to know better. Do they whinge about Total's (my old lot) "Scottish" revenues being spent in France? No. Because they want the business there. Oxygen thieves.

And no, I haven't heard of this stabbing either... did you mean cricket fan? there isn'y any footy on here at present!

And the point isn't about whether there are some violent drunks that support England. Of course they do. So do they in Germany, Holland and they can even bee seen on a Friday night in Glasgow, rumour has it.

It is about whether there is a more generally accepted state of mind, as expressed in the Scotsman, for example, that needs addressing.

CA @ 224

Where was that murder reported? I have searched the Scotsman, the Telegraph and the Times websites (I don't read redtops!!) and cannot find it.

I am not saying it did not happen but I would like to read it for myself - Thank you.

Alfred of Wessex (215) No worries my friend, to me any racism/hatred/dislike of neighbours either way is by a minority of either population, the genuine people get on with life and are sensible enough to ignore all this pettiness.

I totally agree Jennifer, as does Paul i think - we said almost exactly the same thing earlier.
We live in such a politically correct country that people can't say something a little irreverant without going for the slaughter.
It wasn't so long that Apartheid finished - the world was so happy, so pleased, and now look where we are - frightened to open our mouths for fear of saying something un-pc and being taken to task for it.
I'm not saying Apartheid should still be in place - it was disgusting, disgraceful and violated everything i stand for, but when people are frightened to speak out about rascism for fear of saying something which upsets people, something somewhere has gone terribly wrong. But then that could be said about anything political these days.

Steve (# 228)

I didn't "miss your point completely". I wasn't even addressing your main point.

I was addressing the little dig at the end of your message. It seems that most English posters, even those with very valid points to make and interesting opinions to share, can't do so without having a little pop at Scotland and the Scots at the same time.

David (# 227)

Isn't it remarkable that the press has given us saturation coverage of assaults on two people because they were wearing England football shirts (assaults which were absolutely deplorable) yet you don't appear to have come across the story about "some Scottish bloke" being stabbed to death by a gang of English football fans only 2 or 3 weeks back. Probably he was drunk and abusive though, so what did he expect? That's not really news.

I am English and I am just starting to get a little concerned about the anti-English, anti-Scottish sentiments being expressed recently. I enjoy a pint and good hearted banter with a Scottish mate who lives and works in my area. I have holidayed in Scotland at least twice yearly for the past 25 years and will be doing so again with my kids in August this year, I visit Tynecastle as often as is possible and I do so because of the Scottish people and their culture. For what it is worth all the best to Andy Murray at Wimbledon and for the rest of your career. Lets keep at friendly rivalry and no more

always blunt and straight to the point ... i will never change nigel old bean

i will only be happy when Scotland is free and i can have a Scottish passport

Oh sorry brian i didn't mean you!!!
i meant Lucifer!
Sorry i didn't mean it that way, Brian, please accept my apology.

This has been an ertaining debate but alas I do have to go to work, the joy of it all.

Steve I am sorry to hear that you have had a hard time where you are in Scotland, come to my town, we welcome all comers. Its sad that it has made you feel unwelcome, we tend to pride oursel;ves on being one of the friendlist countries in the world.

Everyone should remember its only a game of football and we are lucky to live where we do and have the freedom to voice our opinions.

I'd hate to think this becomes a major issue, I have been to england too many times to count and on the whole met great people. Furthermore, the english people I know that live here are great too. There will always be idoits both sides of the border who will exploit anything to get a dig in. I'll include Mr McConnell in that.

Well Brian he/she seems to be in a possession of a sense of humour so...
why do you hate the english so much? Do you take a grudge against me because i'm only half-scottish, and therefore not a pure-blood?
(You know J. K. Rowling may have made Harry Potter more politcal than anyone ever realised before...)

Spooky eh Helen!

Scott 344 What do you mean we didn`t qualify for WC years 62 - 82 We won it 1966 !!!

Brain Lisburn -
Yep, my Grandma lives in Carluke, about 30 minutes south of Glasgow. I think it's a beautiful city - i was considering going to University there actually, but the course wasn't quite what i wanted. (I liked the idea of having two Unions :-p)
Any particular reason why, Brian?

I remember this question of transfer of support in england when Man U were the only team left in Europe consistantly. I could not support them because of the arrogance I perceived from the club. Simple. What some seem to mix up is I did not loath Manchester or Mancs or refer to some misjustices over 300 yrs. Some people have not answered the q. with thought, the ABE approach does not smack of friendly banter.
Andy M pronouncements just fit in with his comments on the womens demand for equal pay.
McConnells comments might just be a reflection on what team he supports in Glasgow.
I have never encountered any anti englishness in scotland although I have in Wales.
As for ignorance, I live in the 3rd largest county in england but no one knows where it is. My daughter who is at uni in scotland when asked where she is from has stopped saying near Skegness, because scottish friends refuse to believe that that is not in Scotland. She now says near Nottingham, who should she blame for this ignorance?
As for football inspired violence I just think it seems to be different in Scotland, en masse much better behaved than the english abroad, but it is not that long ago that a poor lad was killed for wearing the wrong shirt in Glasgow, that was nothing to do with England.

Helen, you just made the point that I have been trying to since this whole thing started. Murray was just having a bit of banter with Henman and it was blown out of all proportion. Enjoy the banter people!

oooh... just because it's also interesting

"Credit cards, cheques and debit cards are not legal tender either but it doesn't stop them being used as payment. Only a minuscule percentage of Scottish and British trading is carried out using legal tender. Just because something is not legal tender certainly doesn't imply it's illegal to use."

Helen. If you had watched the national news on Wednesday evening you would know why. It is one of the most violent cities in the developed world.

Linsey all notes are of course legal currency and as such can be used. There are no notes which are classified as legal tender in Scotland, not even Bank of England notes.

http://www.rbs.com/about03.asp?id=ABOUT_US/OUR_HERITAGE/O...

191 - Paul

Have a look at this website www.strawbear.org.uk
you might find that not all 'morris dancers' wave hankies and sport bells.

oh and I'm adding in this as well... I think I may be the only one interested in this line of convo but maybe not!

"The lack of a true legal tender in Scotland does not cause a problem for Scots Law which is flexible enough to get round this apparent legal nonsense, as was demonstrated some time ago when one local authority tried to refuse a cash payment (in Scottish notes) on the grounds it wasn't "legal tender", but lost their case when the sheriff effectively said that they were obliged to accept anything which was commonly accepted as "money", and that should their insistence on "legal tender" have been supported, it would have resulted in the bill being paid entirely in coins, which would have been a nonsense; stopping short of saying that the council would have been "cutting off their nose to spite their face", but seeming to hint at it."

I think next time someone refuses me in England I'll raise the credit card issue (above) and also the commision free one too!

Steve that remark about subs was in a context refering to someone talking abour dissolution of the union. Personally I am not that bothered about the union.

QH the report is from the labour led parliament. What does that tell you? The question is not about Independence now, it is more to do with the report only available last year under freedom of info act stating what the situation would be if Scotland became independent and had control of our oil.

I think alot of people forgot what Scotland has given to the UK. The TV that the dammed world cup is being shown on would not be there if it were not for a Scot. Nor would the telephone. We would not have had one of the biggest breakthroughs in medicine if it had not been for Alexander Fleming inventing penicillan. We have done alot for the UK, indeed for the world.

You're right David, I do concede that these incidents, and they are isolated, only serve to increase what is seen by the media as anti-English, and they are a downright disgrace!

However, 99% of the time there is no trouble, but the media fail to highlight the friendly atmospheres in pubs across the country as it is not considered news-worthy that people can actually get on with one another without it turning nasty.

Anyone who can't see beyond the statement Murray has made seriously need to get out more - its only a game!

What amuses me about Scots nationalists is that they complain about being dominated by a larger neighbour in the Union yet are so enthusiastic for the EU! Don't they think that the EU dominates them? And within the EU, Germany and France?

EU law already has precedence over UK law. At least the UK (in principle, if it wishes), as the fourth largest economy in the world with a population of 60 million, is able to put up some resistance to EU directives that adversely affect these isles. Ask yourself how a small nation of 5 million (and declining in terms of population) would manage - especially as EU grants will increasingly go east. What will happen when the EU finally moves - as the Germans demand - to voting based on population figures?

Also, I seem to remember that most of North Sea Oil is around Shetland - and haven't they said they would secede from Scotland if the latter seceded from Britain? Where would that leave 'the Kuwait of the north'?

All this fuss started because of some injudicious comments by the First Minister. Couldn't he have shown some statesmanship by at least wishing the England team well? Or at least keeping quiet? Perhaps Andy Murray could retrieve the situation by apologising to English fans who were upset by his statements; equally, he could - and should - DEMAND an apology from the sick racists who made comments about Dunblane. Or at least, he could help reconciliation by making a statement that since Britons have been divided by football, he's going to win Wimbledon for the entire UK. That really would be a healing exercise.

Perhaps it could be helped by members of the Tartan Army contacting those England fans who couldn't make it to Germany to meet up in Wimbledon and cheer for Andy standing side by side. Now that would be a spectacle!

@ QH who seems to frequently miss the point. I, as a Scotsman, can support whoever the hell I want to, and anyone that says I can't is a fascist! Argue with that.

Now Lucifer,

The only problem I have with this is:

As Lucifer resides in Scotland does that mean that Scotland is ................... Hell?

I agree with Linsey 125. Scottish bank notes have the word Sterling written on them which is the currency of this whole nation so should be accepted in England, Wales, Scotland or N. Ireland without question (unless it is a fake!).

We agree Paul! :-D Merry banter and all that! Being a mad dog, might just have to get myself a glass of Pims... beg pardon for a moment...
I would have supported Scotland if they were where England is now, just like i would support Ireland if they had got through and both England and Scotland hadn't.
Another reason i didn't want to go to Glasgow Uni was because my Nana would probably want me to come live with her every weekend - not that it's bad, but it would upset her if i didn't :-p

I love tennis and I like football. ..... football is just kicking around a bag of wind and tennis is just a smaller bag of wind. It's a pity lots of people seems so ready to be offended! They are just games!!

To Paul 102

Sorry Paul you are showing just how out of touch you are - two general elections ago I remember sitting in a London (England) pub watching the SNP broadcast and then watching the incredulous English afterwards!

They could not believe the small minded chip on shoulder message that was coming over. My fear is that all of this has woken English nationsalism - and it will be the Scotish that suffer - you do not get any of this sort of thing in Wales on anything like the scale!!

Working in other countries broadens the mind and puts myths and prejudice in context - Paul try it!

Shall i take that as a compliment Innes ;-)
Bye everyone
H.

Helen,
Are you on commission or something, or do you just have no hobbies, or a life ;-)

tut tut tut brian i do not touch that vile lager stuff ... i much prefer a glass of Chardonay or a cold glass of magners cider with ice

did i tell you one of my brothers in law is Cornish

Enough already!! I am so sick of this!!!!!! Support who you want!!! I'll support England even though my mum is Welsh and I live in Scotland - let people support who they want!!!!
As for the Murray bashing - I hope he does well as I'm a fan of british tennis and don't give a monkeys if he is supporting anyone but England - he's not alone so why does anyone give a damn!! One thing he should do is stop being so angry and arrogant on court and start respecting the umpire and his staff! I would say that about any player regardless of where they are from!

David (#206)

In your list of "extreme behaviours" that the Scotland-England banter has degenerated into, you failed to mention the Scottish football fan stabbed to death in a town on the south coast of England recently.

There are no "winners" in this debate - no side has the moral high ground. So don't try to take it!

Agree Mike and we could nuke Hadrian's wall at the same time.

Alison (#235)

I read details on a BBC news website only a couple of days ago. I'll try to find the link and post it.

Steve 165. Point taken, but I don't see 50 million English people putting up with similar treatment from the collective Nebuchadnezzar in Brussels for 900 years.

Brian 172. I see your point - I must admit I didn't know there were 6 verses, including

6. Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen!

(I always thought there were only three). What a double-edged sword the internet is!

Brian -
Prefect you know... you think i'm QERASY you should meet the Head Boy and Girl... :-D

Steve comment 119. Why would they be more stratetically and geographically more suitable if they were moved down to the South of England. As pro nuke I'm all for having nuclear subs and the weapons they carry on board. However,if you want them then please take them. It would reduce the threat of Rosyth being on the hitlist of un-friendly governments who also have nuclear weapons. If the government shuts down Rosyth/Holy Loch sub base and moved them down to Portsmouth/Plymouth you then are a target in the event of another war. By all means take the subs and worry about the consequences later.I'm sure terrorists would love to be able to have a pop at one of those subs and watch the fireworks go off.
Also please remember that Scots pay taxes and as such we are also entitled to have Armed Forces stationed in Scotland,not much good down in the South if an invading country was just to land in the North and walk down. I hope you remember that the Armed Forces are made up of people from all over the Britian,not just England. It may come as a shock to you but there are Welsh,Irish and those born in the Isle of Man employed in the Services.

"I am beginning to suspect that Ken could be Lucifer under another guise?"

behave

Brian Lisburn, Keep going, I don't have to say much for you to make an @r$e of yourself. You are obviously geographically dsylexic and not to sure where England stops and starts. Keep up the comments as I'm having a good laugh at them.

That's the problem with writing and not talking, you can sometimes come across completely wrong, not in a way you meant at all.
I am really very sorry Brian.

The trouble here Paul (196 and others) is that there are three issues:

Jokes about Morris Dancer type stuff, which we can call genuine banter.

Worrying about who supportes who, which is pretty tedious.

And lastly, the issue of racism, which is pretty serious and many use point 1 and 2 to disguise (I'm not saying you do).

Imagine a newspaper called the Englishman (would be imediately held up as an example of self centred arrogance) that had a major article in it saying that it was OK to hate the Scots as they weren't a real race, so it wasn't racist. That's what the Scotsman did last week.

As a British / English white bloke I have never before known what it is like to be hated for your origins, rather than who you are as a person. Three years in Scotland have changed that experience and until sensible Scots face up to the problem (and it isn't just the white English that suffer, try being black or any ethnic minority in Aberdeen) it is going to sully thought about Scots and Scotland.

I am 50 and have never felt like this about anywhere (I have live in many different countries).

I came to Scotland thinking, naively, that Scotland was a slightly more sophisticated version of England. Biggest mistake of my life.

I have a suggestion as an Irishman. Why not agree to bury the hatchet and make an agreement of reconciliation that from now on all Britons will support all the teams of the home nations? This will end Scots Anglophobia and and the English 'backlash' which could become serious if allowed to fester. Remember how many Scots, Welsh and Irish live in England. Personally, I'm more than happy to support England.

Here's another suggestion. People often suggest a united British team, which might be difficult to arrange because locals will be jealous for tehir distinct teams, but couldn't an exception be madein one case? How about 'The EU Trophy', open to all member states of the EU. This would require a sole UK side - and I'm arrangements could be made to rotate managers each time the competition is held. There is a precedent in Rugby. Whilst there are distinct national sides in the British Isles, they all come together in the Briitsh and Irish Lions.

Come on, everyone's always wondered how a united British team would perform. Joining together Scots, English, Northern Irish and Welsh players would be an interesting event. At least there would be no name-calling between Scots and English for those matches!

Thank you for that CA

However, it sounds as if the Record has put a little bit of spin on this ......... and I should think it is no coincidence that the WC was about to start. If it had been at any other time it would probably been reported differently ........... or not at all.

Unfortunately, stabbings are becoming a routine event which sometimes never get reported at all - except in local press. As I said I couldn't find it in the broadsheets.

Regards

I agree with the bloke who is fed up with mentions of 1966, but for most Scots the hatred seems to go further - or that is the impression we get anyway. What do you expect when your First Minister says: "anyone but England."

I don't expect a Scot to actively support England, but to say as Murray said that he will support Paraguay (which basically infers anyone but England), he is taking it further and showing how immature he is. Having said that, having seen the brattish way he behaves on court should we be surprised?

Brian -
i know that mate, but then so is Nottingham and it has one of the best University's in the UK. I think that if you go looking for trouble you'll find it, but in the University area and say Suchiehall, Buchannan, and Princes Street (where it all goes on i should mention) i've never even seen anyone shouting at each other never mind pulling a knife or gun and i must have spent a long time there (even at evening)!
I'd love to have a chat with the Archbishop so pleased do - i'd enjoy it :-p haha. You can probably tell i am in no way relgious...

Rufus @ 126

Well as we're playing fantasy football here - let me see your question:

"if scotland were playing in the world cup final against, say, spain, that English football fans would genuinely hand-on-heart want Scotland to win?"

Right, I can honestly, say, hand on heart that ..........No, I don't think most English football supporters would be rooting for Scotland. They would all be learning Spanish and shouting 'OLE'!!

The same goes for the fact that as a Chelsea supporter I could never, ever support Arsenal.

However, among non football fans I think you would find a lot of genuine support in England for Scotland. Let's face it there are 1 million Scots living and working down here, lots of us are related to Scots and we like your country.

PS Whoever made the comment about Michael Ballack ....... yes he's playing for Germany at the moment .........but he's signed for Chelsea!! Good lad.

Paul - 216

Yes, its a great festival - now - and we have people from all over the world. Some of the costumes are fantastic.

It certainly brightens up a cold January in the Fenland.

Gerard (211),
You may be stunned to hear that many countries with a population of 5 million do very well and without the level of resources Scotland has e.g. Ireland, Norway, New Zealand. The first two incidentally are weathier countries than the UK. The claim to be the world's fourth largest economy is irrelevant - it is standard of living you look to e.g China is a larger ecomomy than us but has much lower living standard. As for EU grants - for your information there are very few parts of Scotland which qualify. You may find this more of a worry for the North of England. The oil is Scottish under international maritime law. If shetland were to secced then they would be allocated a proportion of the fields that is all.

Patrick,

With all due respect, how can you say "and it will be the Scotish that suffer". I mean, I know from your post that you've travelled.....but how can you make such a statement without quantifying it? I mean, how can you really, really know? To be fair, it's a pretty pompus statement.

Remembering how you felt having watched that SNP broadcast in a pub in London? That's kind of how a lot of Scots feel watching the BBC and ITV coverage of the world cup.

Steve (#218) said:

"I came to Scotland thinking, naively, that Scotland was a slightly more sophisticated version of England. Biggest mistake of my life."

It's wrong that Scottish people discriminate against you based on where you come from.

But at least you weren't stabbed to death by English football fans - the fate of a Scot in southern England recently.

That's quite the level of sophistication you've got going on down there.

AJ, your statement

'The same goes for the fact that as a Chelsea supporter I could never, ever support Arsenal'.

Says it all, don't you agree QH?

i would just like to add: “the only good Englishmen are six foot under Bannockburn”

Saor Alba

Thig Ar Latha

Gerrard 145. You are having a laugh. Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland have got no world class football players or indeed any players who would be worthy of cleaning the boots of the present England team.

And no brian i haven't been on the lager today, although i was at my Graduation Party last night and am probably still somewhat inebriated!

Keep your knickers (or whatever you wear under your skirt) on Jock 181

On a lighter note folks

A farmer was out on his Welsh hillside tending his flock one day,when he saw a man drinking with a cupped hand from the stream which ran down from one of his fields. Realising the danger, he shouted over to the man, "Paidwch yfed yr dwr! Mae'n ych-y-fi" (don't drink the water, it's not nice).

The man at the stream lifted his head and put a cupped hand to his ear, shrugged his shoulders at the farmer, and carried on drinking.

Realising the man at the stream couldn't hear him, the farmer move closer.
"Paid fachgen! Dwr ych-y-fi! Defaid crappio yn y dwr!" (Don't boy, the water is not nice. The sheep crap in the water).

Still the walker couldn't hear the farmer. Finally the farmer walked right up to the man at the stream and once again said "Dwr yn ych-y-fi!
Dim yfed!" (the water's dirty don't drink it!)

"I'm dreadfully sorry my good man, I couldn't understand a word you said!" said the man at the stream in a fine English accent, "Oh I see"
said the farmer. "I was just saying, if you use both hands you can get more in..."

Doesn't anyone have anything else to do?

CA

You are another irrelevant expat - so butt out

Ach you poms dream too much. I predict that England will lose to Portugal 3-0

Ken,

Right - you are a patriotic Scot - I am a patriotic Englishman - I'll respect your view if you respect mine.
As far as the football goes - I want them to win but I doubt if they will - the way they have been playing it looks doubtful don't think there will be any celebrations - if there are don't worry I won't be inviting you.

CA - I've seen you on here before and I've seen you on the Daily Telegraph site - you always resort to personal remarks or make spelling corrections. As I said you don't live in Scotland or England and your views don't interest me because the situation is nothing to do with you. Also you seem to be a bit up yourself - just an observation.

As the english slowly crawl up to their beds, the auzzies and usa come out. I wonder what you lot thing, if anything. And what the hell are you doing looking at this crap website. Go to the herald for scottish news. 'Times' for english.
This 'newpaper' is the most anti scottish rag you could buy. Anti scotland, anti devolution, anti independence. As far as I can see the readers are mainly english, (who must be lost), scottish who have deserted their country, and stagglers like myself. WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE....
You may forget what this is meant to be discussing - Andy Murray, a Scot, who has been threatened and abused, taunted about the Dunblane masacre, where he was at school at the time (which I was next to be called in the ambulance service). It is not about football, anti english feeling or anything such.
He was having a banter, as you do , with his friend Henman (english) and mentioned in jest that he would support anyone but england in the wotrld cup.
What do we get, well you can read it for yourself.

And your views don't interest me because your brain doesn't appear to be linked to the finger you type with.

Or perhaps it is.

Either way, it doesn't look too good for you.

Perhaps if you had had the benefit of a Scottish education, you wouldn't be subjected to Scots correcting your deplorable spelling.

It's quite remarkable that you are expressing concern over others making personal remarks about you, given the dross you type diected at an entire country.

Splitting hairs Ken, being home side in 1966 we QUALIFIED The means by which we qualified is another issue, I was just winding Scott up Where is he by the way ?

To John Bull, appropriate name i think, obviously has not read this thread from the outset. Living outside the timezone me thinks? lol Another example of a 'support me please my empire has expired years ago'. Go back to your grotty little slums that is 'little England' Dumps on a scale.

1. London - what a hole

2. Birmingham - Need I say more?

3. Liverpool - eh? nah nuff said

Look CA

You've been on about the Scottish education system before ............ well check out some of the posts - there's plenty of Scots on here that don't seem to have benefited from it.

I was defending my country against some of the remarks that were directed at it. Why don't you defend your country .......... what is it? Scotland or Canada?

Kiwi from Wellington

Another wannabee Scot - pretending that his view is relevant.

Before you correct wannabee CA, it is English and Scots slang for want to be and is widely used in both countries - which you would know if you lived here.

Good Night all

Janice,
ok, ok,
the point of this is meant to be about Andy, an 18 year old who was at school in Dunblane when the masacre happened. Is it right that he has been vebally abused and attacked for his jest with Henman (his friend) about football. Yes or No.
No provaricating, Yes or no.
Everything else is not relevent

CA,
I am going to bed now, but out of interest where are you? I have visited the Vancover area before and am keen to go back with the family. I got a great reception there!
My wife has been to Ontario, so am eager to go there soon.
If you answer I will see it tomorrow.
Ta
Ken

I wish this had not blown up so much.

We are not english so why does it bloomin matter so much. England is a big enough country with enough support of its own.

Murray was slated for his saltire sweatbands, I don't see why its a problem. When people ask where I come from I do say Scotland before Britian.

I think the problem rises in the differences between our coutries in terms of education, the criminal justice system among others. If our children are not educated in the same way and grow up with different influences then the way they class themselves is different. From my school days I was taught to identify myself as Scottish. Its something that I don't think we'll agree on so sleeping dogs should be left to lie.

Have you been watching Question time? Melanie from the daily mail, does not know her arse from her elbow.

John Bull said:

"You've been on about the Scottish education system before ............ well check out some of the posts - there's plenty of Scots on here that don't seem to have benefited from it.

I was defending my country against some of the remarks that were directed at it. Why don't you defend your country .......... what is it? Scotland or Canada?"

Funnily enough, we Scots don't see "the English defending England" (which they're entitled to do) and "the English attacking/abusing the Scots" (which is what you were doing) as synonymous. So just why you're surprised that you're getting the reaction that you are is beyond me.

Since you ask, I have dual citizenship. But it's the Scottish-educated side of me that's able to tell you that what you meant to type was "... there ARE plenty of Scots on here who don't seem to have benefited from it".

Isn't it annoying to be patronised and insulted by someone exuding an air of superiority? Perhaps you could have that printed on t-shirts and sell them to your like-minded countrymen.

To John Bulls**t, typical Englishman makes assumptions with no facts to base them on. Proud to be born and bred in the Athens of the North. There are only two lovely countries i was born in one and live in the other, you have to take a deep breath as the plane flies over slum land to get here.

John I don't think its fair to say we have not benefited from our education in Scotland.

I have just graduated from Glasgow University where by our devolved government I did not have to pay tuition fees (you should really push westminister for it rather than allowing top up fees) so I have not been landed with mounds of debt like thousands in England. English students could benefit alot if westminster learns some lessons from the lib dems.

Ken

I was off to bed but I'll reply to your post - I think that Andy Murray has a perfect right to support anyone he likes in the World Cup. As do we all.

The people who mentioned the tragedy at Dunblane are despicable monsters who should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. There is no excuse for people like that - Morons.

Good Night All

Ken,

I'm in Alberta. Given the choice, stick with visiting Vancouver (or Victoria, which is spectacular) or the interior of B.C. And make sure your passport has your place of birth clearly indicated. They're very selective about who they let in here. They won't admit any old B*llsh*t artist :-)

Aye,

CA

John Bull,

That's more like it. Treat people reasonably and show a bit of humility and you'll get a lot further. It really isn't that hard.

Good night.

Unlike you - yes

Scott from your ranting and swearing ,I wouldn`t boast your source of education. Ken Andy did make his ABA remark prior to chat with Henman, he publicly endorsed Jack McConnell`s statement Soarsa Dunblane blog inexcusable, but thumping little Kiwi boys in Englands shirts is also Goodnight all PS CA you are a pratt

Hey here's a solution to all the argument The Scots can all vote SNP at the next Scottish elections, have a referendum and become independent. (You can even have Tony B Liar and Gordon Brown back as well) Then, if I understand the SNP script correctly, Scotland and England will enter into a mature relationship and we all live happily ever after. Is that the gist of some of the stuff I have been reading recently from the nats? Sorry but that's a load of rubbish. I'm in favour of independence for all the home countries,not just Scotland, but I can't believe that the future will be so rosy for any of us. There are always unintended consequences to any action and the future is very much a closed book. Politicians will promise you anything to get into power and the SNP are no different from anybody else. Vote for independence but don't think that it's the answer to all your problems. (Minor point-if you are in the Union then it's British oil. If you are not in the Union then it becomes Scottish oil. Is that too rational for you? Or are we too far gone on emotional arguments)

On a final note, everybody on these message boards seems so keen on making sweeping generalisations about both scottish and english history but with little reference to the facts. Please give your histories much closer reading. Read the new historians who are shedding new light on our common history such as Tom Devine, Linda Colley and Roy Porter. Just please stop getting your history from Hollywood.

Oh yeah. There is a very sizable rational minority down here who are aware that there are four countries in the United Kingdom and are also sick of the coverage of 1966, this world cup and the state of David Beckham's bowels.

So what - we still won it and we still get a star on our shirts - when we wear them during this World Cup. How many stars are the Scots wearing on their shirts ............ oh whoops I forgot they're not in it - again!!

Thats why they have to latch onto England's opponents to make themselves look relevant.......... SAD!!!

By the way CA - I think it was you that I saw on the Daily Telegraph comment the other day. You got shot down in flames there didn't you?

Sorry Ken that should be ABE not ABA I`m tired

I doubt it. The Daily Telegraph has more words than pictures, so not your sort of a "read".

Yes John Bull sh*t,
you won it, and good on you, still didn't qualify for it. That was the point.
As I said if you lot win it, great, just keep me out of the celebrations.#
I have not latched myself onto your opponents actually, I have not watched any game with england in it!
Keep it factual.
It has been a good world cup so far, hope it continues.

To Janis,
I only met one person in my life who ever wound me and i divorced her lol. My education has done me quite fine thank you very much and if i want to f***ing swear i will and no pumped up 'wanna have a history' dolly mixture will tell me otherwise lol I used to think God was a myth but over the years I began to think something must be out there, either that or im just one lucky guy. So glad i am Scottish and not English.

Few points of clarification...Bank of England notes are not legal tender in Scotland, however Scottish notes are not legal tender ANYWHERE in the UK...it's an anomoly of the UK and Scottish banking systems...therefore, we in Scotland do not need to accept English notes and you lot in England don't need to accept Scottish notes...fact...however, it's bloody daft for any of these notes to be rejected anywhere in the UK...it's all money, and it's all sterling...

As for English people getting abuse in Scotland, I lived in England for 5 years and go plenty of abuse for being Scottish...there are toe-rags on both sides of the border who are 'racist' if that's actually an appropriate term (I don't think it is), but most of us are not...

Stephanie wrote (384): "I have just graduated from Glasgow University where by our devolved government I did not have to pay tuition fees (you should really push westminister for it rather than allowing top up fees)"

Blair's vote to introduce fees in England was made possible, at least in part, by Scottish MPs' votes; see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3434329.stm
for more details. You've chosen a classic West Lothian question example here.

Yes, I understand that the majority of Scottish (I think!) are not anti-English. However...

I work for a Scottish company and one of my colleagues was threatend in a bar simply due to his accent (Glasgow). He later found that there was a list of 'places not to go to'.

I have always supported Scotland in the World Cup. I don't want to be obvious, but Gemmil's goal v Holland in 78 threw up an exciting finish and I was rooting for them.

1982: Narey's goal v Brazil. Yes, I cheered.

1986: Strachan scored to put Scotland 1-0 up v W Germany. Yes I cheered. Much like I did for Gerry Armstrong v Spain in 82 and Ray Houghton v Italy in 94, as examples of other home countries.

I've always seen it as 'home teams', but it's obvious others don't.

Back to my Scottish company. Yes, the 'joke' from the lads was to support anyone playing England. I doubt they really saw the niggle it caused. A laugh down the pub, but we recognise they don't have to support England, but supporting anyone who plays us? That is the big point.

Yes, more like the Beno.
Mind you he wouldn't read that because it was scottish.
Typical anti scottish, but making it outto be the opposite.

Dryden wrote:

Blair's vote to introduce fees in England was made possible, at least in part, by Scottish MPs' votes; see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3434329.stm
for more details. You've chosen a classic West Lothian question example here.

I am very well aware of that Dryden. I actually graduated with a politics degree. At the time this was going through I wrote to my MP and asked him not to vote on this matter not only because education is a devolved issue but also because top up fees would have a detremental effect on Scottish students. This is because a number of English students are coming here to study law and medicene to avoid top up fees at the expense of Scottish students. And of course the University here would participate in the discrimination because any non Scots pay higher fees so more money for them to use on their bonuses. And if I remember right it would not have been passed had there not been a 3 line whip.

Its not like we want to vote on English matters, the labour governement has been exploiting