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US seeks right to hit pirates on land and in the air

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Published Date: 12 December 2008
AMERICAN forces would receive a mandate to attack Somali pirates by land and air, under a new proposal that will go before the UN Security Council next week.
The United States has drawn up a draft resolution on the issue, which proposes that all nations and regional groups co-operating with Somalia's government in the fight against piracy and armed robbery "may take all necessary measures ashore in Soma
lia".

The proposal marks one of the Bush administration's last major foreign policy initiatives.

If the US military gets involved, it would mark a dramatic turnabout from its experience in Somalia in 1992-93, which culminated in a deadly military clash in Mogadishu, followed by a humiliating withdrawal of American forces.

Piracy off Somalia has intensified in recent months, with more attacks against a wider range of targets. There was an unsuccessful assault on a cruise ship in the Gulf of Aden, which links the Mediterranean Sea, the Suez Canal and the Red Sea to the Indian Ocean. In September, pirates seized a Ukrainian freighter loaded with 33 battle tanks, and on 15 November they seized a Saudi oil tanker carrying $100 million worth of crude.

About 100 attacks on ships have been reported off the Somali coast this year.

Forty vessels have been hijacked, and 14 are still in the hands of pirates, along with more than 250 crew members, according to maritime officials.

In a related development, Britain, which has a frigate off the Somali coast, reached agreement with Kenya yesterday that any pirates the Royal Navy captures can be handed to Nairobi, as Somalia has no effective government or legal system.

The new US resolution is to be presented at a session on Somalia on Tuesday with Condoleezza Rice, the US secretary of state.

The resolution proposes that, for a year, nations "may take all necessary measures ashore in Somalia, including in its airspace, to interdict those who are using Somali territory to plan, facilitate or undertake acts of piracy and armed robbery at sea and to otherwise prevent those activities".

The draft also says Somalia's government – whose president has written to the UN twice this month seeking help – suffers from a "lack of capacity, domestic legislation, and clarity about how to dispose of pirates after their capture".

The Somali government yesterday welcomed the move.

The resolution is aimed at taking measures to stabilise a long-violent and lawless Somalia, a senior US official said on Wednesday.

Although a number of countries, such as Russia, have sent naval forces and taken other steps to stop the piracy, the efforts were considered "very unco-ordinated" so far, a second US official also said privately.

Earlier this month, the Security Council extended authorisation for another year for countries to enter Somalia's territorial waters with advance notice and to use "all necessary means" to stop acts of piracy and armed robbery at sea.

Nations entering Somali waters to fight piracy and armed robbery along the country's 1,880-mile coastline, the continent's longest, must first obtain approval from the Somali government and give advance notice to Ban Ki-moon, the UN's secretary-general .

But now the US believes the fight must go ashore.

Without committing more US navy ships, the Bush administration wants to tap into what officials see as a growing enthusiasm in Europe and elsewhere for more effective co-ordinated action against the Somali pirates.

Administration officials view the current effort as lacking coherence, as pirates score more and bigger shipping prizes.

Spearheading the administration's case, Ms Rice intends to make a pitch at the UN's anti-piracy meeting in New York on Tuesday with her counterparts from a number of nations with a stake in solving the problem.

Bandits going global as investors in the ransom 'business' trade support for cash

AHMED Dahir Suleyman is cagey as he talks about the global network that funds and supports piracy off the coast of Somalia.

"We have negotiators, translators and agents in many areas," said Suleyman, a pirate in the harbour town of Eyl, where scores of hijacked ships are docked.

"These people help us during exchanges of ransom and finding out the exact person to negotiate with."

Before cutting off the mobile phone call, Suleyman snapped: "It is not possible to ask any more about our secrets."

The dramatic increase in piracy in African waters this year is backed by an international network, mostly of Somali expatriates, from the Horn of Africa to as far as North America and Europe: people who offer funds, equipment and information in exchange for a cut of the ransoms, according to researchers, officials and members of the racket. With help from the network, Somali pirates have brought in at least £18 million in ransom so far this year.

"The Somali diaspora around the world have taken to this business enterprise," said Michael Weinstein, a Somalia expert at Purdue University in Indiana, US. He likened the racket to "syndicates where you buy shares and get a cut of the ransom". Mr Weinstein said the phenomenon had reached Canada, home to 200,000 Somalis.

Sheik Qasim Ibrahim Nur, director of security at Somalia's interior and national security ministry, said evidence pointed to Somali expatriates in Kenya and the United Arab Emirates. He said there was "no doubt" the pirates had links outside Somalia.

Kenya's government spokesman, Alfred Mutua, said the issue was under investigation. In Dubai, a police officer at the interior ministry denied claims that anyone was funding piracy.

The deals with "investors" appear to be fairly informal, with family or clan networks stretching overseas.

Somalia is a failed state with no banks, only a cash-based, informal transfer network called hawala. A hawala operator takes in money on one end, then instructs a relative, friend or another agent in another country to hand a like amount to someone else.

The pirates acknowledge using foreign help.

"We have people in Nairobi, Djibouti, Dubai and many other countries," said Gamase Hassan Said, a pirate in Eyl.

Aden Yusuf, another pirate in Eyl, said foreigners helped pirates acquire sophisticated equipment, such as money-counting machines, in exchange for a cut of the ransom.

Roger Middleton, an expert on east Africa at the Chatham House think-tank in London, said ransoms in the past had been "channelled to expatriate Somalis around the world". But pirates appeared to be opting for direct cash pay-outs more often – bypassing even the hawala system – because of concerns about scrutiny by governments, he said. In one instance early this year, he said, the pirates wanted money delivered through the Gulf but nobody was prepared to take it.

"That may be an indication that the (UAE] government was stepping up pressure," said Mr Middleton.

The Somali pirates also rely on a local network of corrupt officials and villagers. The pirates generally dock hijacked vessels near the coast in the northern Somali region of Puntland as they negotiate ransoms. Rogue security and government officials there allow the pirates to use ports and move freely around towns while they restock ships, said Abdullahi Said Aw-Yusuf, a district commissioner in Eyl.

"This is the main reason why pirates are stationed in Puntland," he said.





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 11 December 2008 9:31 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Lurking from home,

11/12/2008 23:37:16
Looks like Kenny Everett's one-size-fits-all solution to problems - . . . . bomb the ********.

2

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 12/12/2008 00:14:33
Well, the piracy problem definitely needs to be taken care of, but if taken to shore, you risk losing innocent civilian lives, so I hope that it can be taken care of at sea, where only the pirates are targeted.
3

Mashimaro,

China 12/12/2008 00:24:00
So... let's get this straight here... the US is wanting to invade Somalia...but wait, it's already done that! And it's still doing that through Ethiopia. That's why these pirates are around in the first place.
4

Tom in Belmont,

Belmont 12/12/2008 02:40:54
We don't need authorization for attacks on the high seas: all nations have that right under a 1815 treaty (even China, Mashie. Think about that the next time they rough up one of your tankers in the Straits of Malacca).
It isn't rocket science: attack choppers with machine guns and the occasional small missile (OK, some rocket science) will work nicely. The important thing is for the pirates to be made to realize that if they are sighted they will become shark bait. Dead men tell no tales.
5

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 12/12/2008 04:13:08
"US seeks right to hit pirates on land and in the air"

With their pre-emptive mentality I'm surprised that they don't hit potential pirates while they are still in school.
6

,

12/12/2008 06:29:49
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7

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 12/12/2008 06:54:18
"This is the main reason why pirates are stationed in Puntland."

Where there are punters, there's pirates.
8

donald,

glasgow 12/12/2008 07:02:17
Hollywood can do it.
9

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 12/12/2008 07:58:21
.. kits up to land in a jumpsuit on an ile tanker.
10

ebbi,

spain 12/12/2008 08:52:00
when it comes to killing and destruction i must really hand it to them, the americans are the best!!!!
this is a quality apparently built in every american.
i guess it is the new american dream, to destroy a new country every year!!!!!!!
11

AJ Fife,

12/12/2008 09:04:15
A barrage of Cliff Richard records and the day will be won!
12

Guga II,

Rockall 12/12/2008 09:11:25
Piracy on the high seas is already a breach of international law, and any country may take any necessary action against pirates.

America does not need any special UN agreement to take on pirates. Bush is only doing this to try and gain some sort of kudos, in a vain attempt to negate the rest of his war criminal activities.
13

P. Lee,

12/12/2008 09:18:56
I hope America get involved in Somalia I want to see another "humiliating withdrawal of American forces"
America will only use missiles they do not like to fight like real men.
14

drunken proffet,

Tassy 12/12/2008 09:23:53
Could I suggest a mantra "We are not going to get involved again" repeated at odd times by politicians when there is not too much activity at work. Heck of an economical.
15

,

12/12/2008 10:38:20
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16

Number 6,

Germany 12/12/2008 11:02:29
So that will mean any ship in the area will be sunk, then the yanks will ask if they were pirates.

Are you sure you don't want to use Nuclear weapons as well ?
17

molu kikes,

basel 12/12/2008 11:04:50
well am pleading against the hopeful mission of which the elect united state president is targetting to to what he says the devilish act against the horn buccaneer ,.,well these so called the horn of africa was still the land under no domain stil in shadow though culturaly they are cogently guided by the so call horn rule policy of protecting their geograhical sea according to the perception of maritime and sea law of 1550 and 1650 when scottish brothers had legitimate experiances over the peroid of henry viii as the great stewardship ,. or the hem of the english ship ,., though the two brothers had several brazen privacy from the spanish armada ship ,.,,,. in relevant to these batch of essay the somali are also embolied by the scottish maritime sea law to defend their enclave ,,,,,against the the great merchandry who do monkey business along the most turmoil land on earth
18

molu kikes,

basel 12/12/2008 11:15:48
well piracy used to exist in all sphre of sea maritime ,., but looking into broad sheet and widely , the contemporaraly ongoing kidnapping .,hoodwooded ,.or men on cloack ,. used exist because most people says they are on voyage but hey are playing spin around the clock ,,.,well i see these proplem of sea cribs snippers can only be stopped if abidded by the sea maritime law of 1550 to 1650 from the broad sheet of the two barton brothers ,.,but based on essay from many scholars they do find remedy to what the conference of 2005 state at grygnog that its amatter of cogently vital aaand culturally to look forward to piracy standards and the cookie how the cookie scrumbles and etc ,. but not rush to bomb like obama says
19

molu kikes,

basel 12/12/2008 11:17:38
engne boot ,.oh ,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,,,.,.,,, grid map .,.,,.., killing arabic vessl ,. wohome mutahi
20

,

12/12/2008 11:32:51
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21

roadstohell,

12/12/2008 11:43:54
#20 I think I know what he is trying to say, let me translate,
a good piracy was used to exist in everything of sphre of the sea of maritime. , but [smotryashch] into the extensive sheet is wide, contemporaraly of ongoing of kidnapping. , hoodwooded, people of.or to cloack. there be used because majorities people they speak they it is located on the voyage but hey play twist around the hours. , good I see [et] of proplem of snippers of [shparek] of sea it is possible to only stop if abidded by the law of the sea of maritime 1550 to 1650 from the extensive sheet of 2 brothers of barton, then. , but after I are based on the essay from many scholars they finds a way out to the conference of position 2005 to grygnog which my amatter of cogently of the essential of aaand in a cultured way, it is which necessary to look forward to the standards of piracy and cookie as scrumbles of cookie and etc. but not hurry to the bomb as obama he speaks
22

,

12/12/2008 11:59:35
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23

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 12/12/2008 12:08:47
#21 roadstohell,
It would be nice if you didn't make fun of the person at posts 17, 18 and 19, I'm fluent in 3 languages but there's always room for improvement even within those 3 languages, at least the person is trying, something I admire.
You need to realize that this person is commenting on articles in the International section, so you're bound to see this type of thing happening from time to time. There are Scottish posters that struggle with spelling as well, so maybe go after them instead.
24

roadstohell,

12/12/2008 12:34:27
#23 Czesc, ty na rajce, przepraszm bardzo
narazie, trzymaj sie jasiu
25

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 12/12/2008 13:02:22
#24 roadstohell,
Well, that's certainly one way of putting it.
Never really looked at it that way.
26

The wilkman,

Isle of Skye 12/12/2008 13:09:07
"Alle die willen te kaperen vaaren
Moeten mannen met baarden zijn"

First two lines of a late medieval Dutch song saying that everyone wants to go be a pirate but they need to be men with beards. They used to go particularly for the trade route along the eastern English coast. This pissed off the Scots enough that the king set an Andrew Barton on them (the king wanted any piracy in the area to flow into his coffers, not to some cheeseheads in Dunkirk). Andie sent him a barrel of salted Dutch pirates heads as proof that he was doing a good job.

Now, my ancestry goes back for sure to Bergen op Zoom but there are strong hints that the family came from Dunkirk before that. That's left me wondering if part of one of my forebears (his head) made it to Scotland nearly 500 years before I did.

PS
Andrew Barten was so cruel after that to English seafarers that folk songs survive commemorating him - but for some reason the name got switched to Henry Marten.

There were three brothers in Merry Scotland
In merry Scotland there were three
And they did cast lots which of them should go down, should go down, should go down
And turn robber all on the salt sea.

The lot it fell on Henry Marten
The youngest of all the three ......................
27

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 12/12/2008 13:14:23
#12:

Guga,

You are correct, but what you say only applies at sea. The Yanks are planning to fight them on land and from the air. Presumably, "from the air" means strafing villages with helicopter gunships. In which case UN approval will be required.

Oh dear. I sense another Vietnam coming on.
28

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 12/12/2008 13:19:55
#27 Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,
The US will go ahead, UN approval or not, look no further than Iraq.
29

Bele's bane,

Scotland 12/12/2008 13:42:56
The pirates are being supported by the "civilians" in fortified bases located along the Somali Coast.

There is no other way to combat this threat to the world except to attack the land bases supporting the piratical attacks on passing shipping. The pirates themselves display no respect for the lives of the innocent, it is only good fortune that has prevented loss of innocent life thus far whilst hijacking and confining a ship.

For once, just once let the Americans committ their forces to a real enemy that is gulity of committing a universal crime against all nations. Unless stopped by decisive military action the pirates will only continue to expand their lucrative operations further out to sea. Eventually world trade will be severly damaged, exacerbating the global financial meltdown.

These are not imaginary threats like Saddam was, even the "civilians" assisting the pirates operations from their fortified bases on shore are guilty of criminal behaviour.
30

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 12/12/2008 14:10:06
#29 Bele's bane,
We still have to be concerned about the innocent that can and will get caught up in another land invasion, there are better alternatives. I mentioned it in a post a few days ago, where I suggested the the naval fleets escort convoys of ships around 15 to 20 at a time, thus having things organized which will soon leave the pirates out of business altogether. Right now they're going about it the wrong way by just patrolling an area that is far too big to patrol. If it can be solved without violence, then let's do that, the alternative is just another mindless slaughter which is totally unnecessary and criminal in my mind.
31

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 12/12/2008 14:22:32
15 Vincent-W

Right back at ya.

You are constantly criticising everyone in various threads in the most crude and intransigent manner.

Who declared you God and the arbiter of reasoned thought on The Scotsman?

Since you are so preoccupied with me, I thank you for your kind words and continued adoration of me.

It is nice to have such dedicated fans as you.
32

SouthernGent,

12/12/2008 15:43:19
"The United States has drawn up a draft resolution on the issue, which proposes that all nations and regional groups co-operating with Somalia's government in the fight against piracy and armed robbery "may take all necessary measures ashore in Somalia"

Funny how this paragraph was translated by so many before me to be "the US", where the statement very clearly states "all nations".

Very easy to put that cart in front of the horse with speculation.
33

,

12/12/2008 16:09:19
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,

12/12/2008 16:18:22
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35

Corky,

12/12/2008 17:33:44
Kipper?

Anyone who thinks that these pirates deserve to rot in hot, dank prisons for the rest of their verminous lives is affront to civilised behaviour and human values.
36

,

12/12/2008 17:36:40
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37

,

12/12/2008 18:50:10
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38

AJ Fife,

12/12/2008 19:08:52
TCW#37,

Vince reads the Fife Herald, and is probably the product of an evicted, brain damaged Lanarkhire miner and an East Coast tattie picker, so what do you expect?
39

,

12/12/2008 19:16:03
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40

,

12/12/2008 19:20:16
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41

Corky,

12/12/2008 19:27:22
TimW1234,

Can you please reconcile your sentiment that you can think it's ok to call that "these pirates deserve to rot in hot, dank prisons for the rest of their verminous lives"

With the view that you, yourself are not "an affront to civilised behaviour and human values."

When I read that I felt quite sickened.
42

AJ Fife,

12/12/2008 20:11:23
Phil the Greek famously described Methil as the "*rse hole of the world". Somalia has a long way to go to reach the dizzy heights of Methil on a Friday night. These pirates wid get banjoed good and proper in the Bayview Bar!

You're quite right Vince, TCW has got it wrong.
43

,

12/12/2008 20:30:36
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,

12/12/2008 21:06:01
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Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 13/12/2008 06:51:58
-- Phil the Greek famously described Methil as the "*rse hole of the world". Somalia has a long way to go to reach the dizzy heights of Methil on a Friday night.

Talk about a destitutional monarchy and the Union dividend! Fife's premier North Sea port deserves better. Alba Confracta for the Pictish Free State!
46

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 13/12/2008 07:41:19
SUCH a lot of twaddle instigated by the ill-bred, intransigent, and furious postings of Vincent-W.

He thinks nobody reads but himself and hurls bad words and insults with gay abandon thinking they will not be challenged.

There are many, many opinions on this thread and much contentious opinionising. If one disagress that is no reason to go into a furious rant and throw about hurtful and scabrous words.

I would just love to witness Vincent-W in a supervised and calm debate with persons who know that bluster and blather and shouting are not conducive to proper argumentation.
47

Corky,

13/12/2008 08:06:57
TimW1234,

Now you've had your rant, can you answer my point, #41?
48

,

13/12/2008 08:30:40
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49

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 13/12/2008 09:07:23
48 VIncent

No.

At the moment I am getting ready to receive guests from Toronto. It is about 4:10 a.m. here.

IF you can conduct yourself in a civilised and measured and calm manner without resorting to insults and innuendoes and outright slanging matches then I MAY consider answering your question.
50

,

13/12/2008 09:21:42
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51

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 13/12/2008 09:45:13
50 Vincent

DO NOT order me about you bombastic bore!

I will get around to your request eventually.

I have better things to do than answer to the likes of you.
52

Corky,

13/12/2008 12:41:21
Tim1234,

Hold on. Both Vincent and I are asking reasonable questions here.

You started the whole thing by making what I regard as a sickening proposal.

It's you that needs to get the therapy or else answer the reasonable questions.
53

Fred Trucker,

13/12/2008 13:50:52
The pirates have become too greedy. A few million bucks here and there is fine but now everyone is getting on the bandwagon
54

,

13/12/2008 14:32:44
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55

Scythia,

13/12/2008 16:01:52
Clearly a rational response to this problem. The USA with its tracking satellites and drone bombers should vapourise these vessels( and hopefully a few of the savages) before they get anywhere near the shipping lanes. Of course the "Rights" industry will complain, but nothing new about that.

56

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 13/12/2008 17:18:43
Corky and Vinnie

I have guests arriving and have a few spare moments to briefly answer your enquiries.

I have reconsidered my original punishment for these pirates and will outline my proposals in an email presently - either Sunday or Monday morning.

Vincent W

Don't you have better things to do? Why aren't you out shopping, enjoying the fresh air, or are you at the pub getting a head start to the usual Saturday night drunken bacchanale in your area?

TTFN.
57

,

13/12/2008 17:26:25
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,

13/12/2008 18:51:26
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59

Lynne,

13/12/2008 22:26:48

Step.1

Indian navy 'captures 23 pirates'
The Indian navy says it has arrested 23 Somali and Yemeni pirates who tried to storm a ship in the Gulf of Aden.

The Indian government said in a statement that the captured pirates had a cache of arms and equipment, including seven AK-47 assault rifles, three machine guns, and a rocket-propelled grenade launcher.
The pirates would be handed over to the appropriate authorities, the statement added.

Step2. Gates has said there will be no fighting on the land until the intel is better.. He doesn't want to see civilian casualties.
But he does believe that there are two or three Somali clans responsible for the priacy.
60

Lynne,

13/12/2008 22:27:10
piracy*
61

oder,

Scotland 13/12/2008 22:29:08
this is a problem that someone has to tackle its all fine a well to criticize the Americans and before they have done anything, the British response to the pirates amounts to nothing more than skipping round dealing with the problem they will hand them over to Kenya! that will take a few thousand years to catch them all! there was a time the English hanged pirates and blew their ships out of the water!

The best thing the Americans can do is issue a warning to the pirates "interfere with American ships and they will come and take them out what ever it takes! and tell the rest of the world to sort out the "problem" themselves.
62

,

13/12/2008 23:31:53
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,

13/12/2008 23:31:54
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64

oder,

Scotland 14/12/2008 00:55:47
62 Vincent-W,

a strong feeling? is this a fact? doesn`t sound like it to me!


"the Americans would rather spend a dollar on a bullet than a dollar buying food for someone."

not true!

the fact is the US is the world`s major benefactor of food aid to Africa and Somalia gets it fair share! The Americans spend more than any other nation on earth to feed the worlds destitute! give credit where credit is due!
since the world is not honest with regards to just how important American involvement is, the Americans are well within their rights to protect their own ships from any pirates as they see fit and tell the rest of the world where to go! if you consider our illustrious
navy manage to get their sailors captured without firing a shot! would you recommend the British do it? I think not! there isn`t the political will.

lets not knock the US because they want to put an end to the criminal activity of piracy! the doors are open for the the rest of the world, but they cant get an idea between them!
65

,

14/12/2008 07:39:21
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66

,

14/12/2008 07:51:51
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67

,

14/12/2008 07:52:24
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68

oder,

Scotland 14/12/2008 10:21:19
65 Vincent-W,14

Though the United States made the largest donation ($21.75bn)

confirms my post 64 the US is the worlds major benefactor for food aid to Africa! and everywhere else

The population of the UK is 1/5 or there abouts that of the US, so adjusting the figures as percentages does not reflect the true position! facts as the are not as you perceive them to be! these pirates don't need to fed! they need to be stopped! and if the Americans do it how can this be construed as them flexing its military might? piracy is wrong! if you don't want the US to solve the problem then do it yourselves! you see any takers? you post @66 I will answer later I don`t have time right now.
69

oder,

Scotland 14/12/2008 10:22:24
should be "as they are"
70

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 14/12/2008 10:25:00
I don't understand why so many of the posters here have the "let's bomb the hell out of everything" mentality. What the hell will that solve? The pirates have shown to be very patient, non violent and in fact very reasonable with their demands, even going as far as releasing a ship and its crew last week without getting anything in return. This can be reslved peacefully, look at my post #30 again and a little diplomacy and common sense will go a long way.
Post #66 Vincent-w, shows another good alternative and I'm sure that there are many more.
It's the act of violence that leads to terrorism, just what we need at this stage of the game.
71

,

14/12/2008 10:47:28
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72

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 14/12/2008 11:00:58
Vincent

I, too, don't give a fig what you think of me but since you were so insistent that I comment on the pirates of Somalia I will tackle that subject presently.

I am currently mourning the loss of 3 more proud and brave Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan. The total is now 103 courageous Canadians gone to their Maker.

Lynne

By the way, Canada has the great loss of soldiers, per capita, of any country serving in Afghanistan. Even your Secretary of Defense praised the valiant efforts of our men and women over there.

Why are we all still in Afghanistan? The conflicts there have been going on for centuries and they won't stop within our lifetimes.

Pax vobiscum.
73

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 14/12/2008 12:00:20
72 TimW1234,
So Tim, can you please tell me why Canada is still kissing US ass and having their troops being killed? Can you tell me what this war is really all about, for I sure as hell can't figure it out.
My son is in the Canadian air force and narrowly missed deployment to Afghanistan this time but he's now scheduled to go in 2010 and needless to say I fear for his safety. Has this war finally avenged the 9-11 attacks on the Americans or does Canada need to lose another 103 troops before enough is enough? Maybe when Canada has lost nearly 3000, roughly the number of people who died as the result of the 9-11 attacks, the US will be happy and will say you can go home now.
Is Canada there because Canada refused to join the Americans and Brits in the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq?
Have you got the answers Tim, because I sure as hell don't?
74

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 14/12/2008 12:50:43
Postmark 55, China

Your post has got to be the most crass and heartless it has been my displeasure to read in a long time.

I don't know the answers and the Taleban will continue to murder innocent peacekeepers in Afghanistan and if you have not one shred of human decency to mourn the loss of so many Canadian troops and those of other countries serving there then I pity you your barrenness of soul.
75

Corky,

14/12/2008 13:09:31
Tim

ANSWERS PLEASE
76

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 14/12/2008 13:22:04
#74 TimW1234,
Excuse me Tim, are you drunk?
Can you not understand English?
What the hell is so crass and heartless about my post?
You might want to read my post again, after a nice cup of hot coffee to sober you up.
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POSTMARK,-55,

China, 14/12/2008 13:29:20
#74 TimW1234,
And since when are there peacekeeping forces on the ground in Afghanistan?
Something I missed Tim in the last three years and three months I've been in China?
From what I recall peacekeepers are not the aggressors, your so called peacekeepers are indeed the aggressors there, they have invaded Afghanistan, they weren't invited.
Big difference Tim, in fact, a huge difference.
I'm sure you have a Tim Horton's somewhere in Ottawa, please ask for the largest and strongest coffee they've got and don't be shy getting a refill or two.
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POSTMARK,-55,

China, 14/12/2008 13:59:28
##74 TimW1234,
You want crass and heartless Tim?
Try reading your own post at #6.
LUSH ! ! !




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TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 14/12/2008 21:52:33
#s 85, 84, 83,82 Vinnie-W

Nobody north of the Tweed can read let alone spell, a fact long-known by everybody south of the Tweed and overseas.

You seem a bit frantic as I have never seen so many capitalisations in any of your other and tedious posts.

Perhaps a wee dram or FIVE of Scotch would calm your frazzled nerves.

DO have the sweetest of dreams, Vinnie.
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Corky,

15/12/2008 08:51:50
Tim1234,

It's now taken you three days to come back and attempt to justify your sickening assertion that beheading or cruel imprisonment is an appropriate punishment.

In the meantime you have done nothing but abuse others and use foul language.

You could have answered your critics 5 times over in the time it has taken you to write your other unpleasant posts.

Are you going to answer me or are you going to swear at me again? I'd also be interested to know why my requests make you so angry?
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TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 15/12/2008 13:59:33
Vincent and Corky

My original posting was written as a sick fantasy and I now regret that it has caused so much controversy and concern and pain.

I explained that I have guests visiting from Toronto and did not have time to properly address your shrill concerns.

Ideally, those sea-born thugs should be arrested by an international force at sea since they are disrupting international trade and putting the innocent lives of the employees on those tankers at risk.

After arrest, they should be tried by an international tribunal - preferably not anywhere in Africa - and duly found guilty or innocent and an appropriate period of incarceration and/or imposed and the fruits of their lawlessness confiscated.

But then, there are more of these lawless and piratical thugs in abundance in Somalia who are enriching themselves by ill-gotten gains and ransoms and building themselves lavish homes and living a lifestyle they never dreamed of.

"The love of money is the root of all evil."

But then there will be more of these Somali pirates to replace those that may be arrested I can assure you. The spoils of these illegal boardings of foreign carriers are too tempting for one of the most lawless and poor nations on Earth to ignore.

I sometimes wonder what happens to those who do not support these thugs. Do they disappear, are they starved while the pirates enrich their supporters and violently suppress all opposition?

The US has bitter lessons learned by trying to control Somalia on land as depicted in the movie "Black Hawk Down".

I somehow feel that even this explanation will not be enough for my constant and persistent critics and I think it hypocritical for one critic to accuse ME of using foul language when he is a past-master at shrill invective.

And why hasn't someone had that posting removed as if it is so offensive and goes against the Terms and Conditions of The Scotsman?
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Corky,

15/12/2008 16:19:41
Tim1234,

Hardly worth waiting for.

You start by making a provocative post which proposes beheading or other cruel punishment, spend ten posts abusing everyone else and finish by saying that we should apply existing international law.
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oder,

Scotland 15/12/2008 16:33:45
66 Vincent-W,14
the biggest problem one has in dealing with Islam is that it cannot be separated between its religion and its political philosophy! for example the Muslim states have not signed the declaration on Human Rights because the first tenet of it states "that all men are Equal" this brings it into direct conflict with the Koran! this is why the Islamic word in 1990 in Cairo created their own version of Human rights based on their religious belief....the Holy Koran! so since the US operates under the UN charter "that all men are Equal this would make the US guilty under Islamic jurisprudence! and that`s before they get to court.
the finding of such a body should not come as a surprise.
I would have serious doubts about the impartiality of any Islamic courts, you said to one poster above that you don't agree or approve of be-headings Islamic courts dish this out every week somewhere in the Muslim world! they also do honour killings, amputations,...stonings beatings in public including women. two women required to be equal to the testimony of one man! there is very little in a fair minded person would find appealing or humane about Islamic courts

are you implying that the above treatment/punishments in the paragraph above is normal behaviour?
this is normal for a Muslim not for anyone else!

it is not the sole responsibility of the US to alleviate the worlds problems Somalia is a Muslim Country the rich Muslim states could help their brethren out but don't!
10 bucks per head? that the amount the pirates are asking for the latest ship they have hi-jacked that gives them the 100 million do you think that will end the piracy?....not likely!.. so then your idea that US pay ten dollars for each Somalian dosen`t resolve the problem.

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TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 15/12/2008 17:53:42
Vincent W and Corky

You two are very hard to please.

I had that offending post removed since it caused so much distress and controversy and did not really reflect my views on the situation. It was written in a moment of insensitive weakness.

As for "spouting drivel", Vincent, have you ever reread ANY of your own postings?

Corky

And what is wrong with applying existing international laws? Do you have any others up your sleeve that could be applied at short notice and get this piracy issue cleared up as soon as possible?

You two are so consumed with criticising everyone, especially me, that I wonder if you have time to attend to your jobs or household tasks or whatever.

Vincent

I see that there has been no response by you to the FIRST sentence of my posting at 86, therefore one can only conclude that you agree with that statement "in principle".
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oder,

Scotland 15/12/2008 17:54:58
94 Vincent-W,


the US has helped and is continuing to do so, but being discussed here is piracy,extortion, and terror on the seas! all criminal acts, no self respecting government can come to agreement with such gangsters! the present Somalian government supports the America view.
the area from which the terrorist/hi-jackers operate is a small portion of the coast its actually one town no one wishes to see innocent people killed! but if you view the worlds conflicts this is precisely what happens extremist have made civilian area`s battle grounds and governments have no choice but fight back in the streets,future wars will be fought in the streets as the extremists has the advantage of choosing the battlefield !

I am not to sure on the existence of moderates! Bin Laden,Taliban, moderates,and a considerable number of other extremists groups! all sing from the same song sheet! "the Holy Koran" the "Immutable word of God" and the killing verses in the Koran are clear! no Muslim may question the holy book to do so is apostasy a death sentence! your last part of your paragraph on fundamentalism is not quite correct, the world has suffered Muslim extremism long before the west became directly involved although it wasn`t called fundamentalism then(for example but no means the only place: Sudan)it was the Americans who first coined the word long before 9/11.

Unfortunately its not the west that has the initiative in this matter!
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oder,

Scotland 15/12/2008 22:14:41
98 Vincent-W,

"Bin Laden and the Taleban have nothing to do with Somalia - do they?);

No they don't! where did you see that I said the they did? you should read my post again! you clearly misunderstand what I have said. my second paragraph mentions extremists and fundamentalists that you introduced to the discussion starting at your post 66 you should also re-read the article above on the Somalia having some kind of government which you obviously missed!your paranoia with what the Americans want to do has you in a bit of a tizz! go sort it out!


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oder,

Scotland 16/12/2008 10:25:16
101 Vincent-W,\

look stick to the topic! its not about Americans its about piracy,extortion, and terror on the sea!

you said

"I do not agree with piracy or international inaction, but allowing the Americans free rein is like asking a fox to keep the peace in a chicken coop."

fine! since you excluded the US from up holding international law what do you suggest? its OK to disapprove of what the US whats to do! but you need to have an definitive answer for dealing with the problem! you don't! all you come up with is your persistent paranoia about US! which many idividuals and countries have! the US knows whats right its the rest of world that dosen`t,hence I said in my post at 61

The best thing the Americans can do is issue a warning to the pirates "interfere with American ships and they will come and take them out what ever it takes! and tell the rest of the world to sort out the "problem" themselves.

in dealing with piracy you have two options you accept what they dictate and be held to ransom, or you end their criminal activity! yes some time it hurts doing the right thing?
it comes down to the simple choice "who wins" piracy or International law" and that is not the sole responsibility of the US,although anytime there a problem somewhere world politicians aren't long in banging on Washington`s door!

so in actual fact I agree with you ! the Americans should not get involved beyond protecting their own ships! so if the pirates leave the US alone, the Somali`s are safe and the rest of the world are happy! is that not more suitable?


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TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 16/12/2008 16:01:51
#s 101, 102, 103

I see you have resorted to posting huge chunks of quotes from other sources rather than stating any original thought.

Perhaps you could just point us towards a link and can read the article in question and determine if you have quoted it correctly, precisely, and without slipping in some quirky statements of your own.

How do we know if what you post is true or not if you will not give us the link so we can determine it for ourselves.

We don't need to be fed pabulum from some disgruntled and nasty poster.
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TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 17/12/2008 16:21:49
111 Vincent-W

YAWN, YAWN, YAWN

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TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 17/12/2008 21:06:24
113 Vincent-W

Perhaps you should discuss with you wife whom we have learnt from another thread is a psychology undergraduate why you have this unhealthy infatuation with myself and my education.

It is quite tiresome and tedious and may be distorting your sensibilites and powers of reasoning.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
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TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 18/12/2008 19:44:34
115 Vincent

Since you publicy pronounced your current status as being a "teetotaller" I sometimes wonder why you are so concerned about whether I indulge or not.

Is it allergies,unpleasant family history, overindulgence in your youth, or you've "found Jesus" that prevents you from consuming the occasional and social glass of wine or beer?

And please don't call me "buddy", sir. I am definitely NOT one of your close acquaintances, thank God.
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TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 19/12/2008 10:31:39
119 Vincent

You are getting off-topic as usual. For you to generalise and say that my contributions are similar to "those of a heavy imbiber" surely you cannot not mean every single one. My friends and professional colleagues are privy to my extended periods of lucid insight and have NEVER commented on anything as personal. That would be rude and infra dig.

Since my endocrinologist and general practictioner both suggest two to three glasses of red wine with meals per evening who am I to contradict or question their professional advice?

This is to even out my blood sugar levels and allow me to relax and not "navel-gaze" about my medical condition which involves lipids and regularly-scheduled blood-sampling and A1C tests.

You can look up "lipids" and "A1C" in Wikipedia or Google them if you are interested but why you would be so inclined is beyond me.

As for the etymology of "buddy", why should I do the research of a person who would have us consider him to be omniscient.




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TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 19/12/2008 13:53:32
121 Vincent

Stuff and nonsense, Vincent. You just OOZE stuff and nonsense.

I definitely DO NOT consider you to be one of my better but just an irritating gnat who has too much time on his hands and should pursue something more positive than obsessing about me and what I have to say.

Get a life, PLEASE!
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TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 20/12/2008 17:36:52
MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR 2009 TO ALL
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