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Tibetan radicals defy Dalai Lama

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Published Date: 23 March 2008
"LONG live the Dalai Lama!" is the most common cry on the streets of Dharamsala.
Even so, the 72-year-old monk's refusal to call for independence from China more forcefully as it has cracked down on the protests in Tibet has sharpened disagreement with younger and more aggressive Tibetan exiles in India.

Tenzin Wangdue, who has spent the past 11 days shouting slogans, including some that the Dalai Lama would shun, is typical of the new generation. While not rejecting the Dalai Lama's authority, he believes Tibetans have to push harder if they are going to get anywhere.

"They're not going to give total independence," he said of China. "But I think there's hope they're going to accept genuine autonomy if we say we want total autonomy."

Since March 10, the Dalai Lama has stuck to his "middle way" script and appeared remarkably affable, at least publicly, even as China accused him of masterminding the uprising and called him "a devil with a human face".

He has repeatedly said he advocates only non-violence, presses not for independence but a "preservation of Tibetan culture", endorses China's role as host of the Olympic Games in August, and is happy to speak to Chinese authorities, including President Hu Jintao. "I'm fully committed to eliminate negative feelings among Tibetans and fear, distrust among Chinese," he said last week.

Yet, a handful of radical Tibetan exile groups have said angrily that the "middle way" has achieved nothing in nearly 30 years. They have called for an Olympic Games boycott, burned Chinese flags and refused to call off a march from India to Lhasa, Tibet's capital, which he has called impractical.

So the question arises as to whether the Dalai Lama, who has spent the past 49 years in India and built one of the most powerful exile movements in the world, is out of touch with his own people. Or is this monk, regarded by his followers as a reincarnation of Buddha, the ultimate political pragmatist?

There is no clear answer.

But a hint of his influence here bleeds through the often angry, inventive protests that have gone on nearly nonstop for over a week. For all the slogans of fury – "Free Tibet" and "Death to Hu Jintao" – the most common is a call-and-response homage: "Long live the Dalai Lama."

Nuns chant it. Scruffy young men with painted faces shout it. Indeed, half the town seemed to have gone hoarse last week calling out his name. He remains revered.

Wangdue, 26, is representative of the foot soldiers of the Tibetan exile movement. Born to refugee parents, he has never seen Tibet, but dreams of going there one day and coaching the first Tibetan football team. He will go back when there is freedom, he said.

He was educated in Tibetan schools in India, raised on a curriculum that emphasised Tibetan suffering and Chinese atrocities, and studied politics and sociology in Delhi University, in the Indian capital. Twice he was arrested for protesting in front of the Chinese embassy there.

Last week, he was shouting "Free Tibet!" up and down the hills. During the protests, several Chinese flags were burned. "I'm a supporter of the Dalai Lama," he confessed. "But when I saw these demonstrations, the blood was boiling in me."

The most explicit face-off in Dharamsala came when the Dalai Lama summoned the groups organising the Lhasa march. He said they would risk not only alienating their Indian hosts, but also invite fire from Chinese troops on the border.

"I have no authority, no power to say: 'Shut up!'" he said. "I'm always telling them: 'You are fighting for our rights. But today we are almost a nation dying. This moment important is survival. Practical solution is necessary.'"

But voices of Tibetans in the seat of the government in exile made it plain that while they had reverence for the Dalai Lama's leadership, they did not feel bound by his directives.

Tashi Phuntshok, 40, a resident of a dormitory for new refugees in Dharamsala, said he understood that the Dalai Lama's political strategy was intended to spare more Tibetan lives. If he called for independence, Phuntshok said, there would be outright war. "His Holiness, he is kind-hearted," Phuntshok explained. "For us, it should be full independence".

Onpo Lobsang, rushing up the road on his way to pick up a banner for a demonstration, said he backed the march to Lhasa despite the Dalai Lama's reservations. "Our goal is the same, we need both sides," said Lobsang, 29, who arrived in India with his parents at the age of nine. "He's the supreme leader, but we don't need to listen to everything he says."

The Dalai Lama has flatly said that to call for independence would be to lose the support of world leaders. He and the government in exile have had talks with the Chinese government since 2002, most recently last summer. Last week, he said he was ready to talk again, but not in Beijing, unless there was "a concrete development" in government policies toward Tibet. China has said it will talk only if he gives up on a claim of independence. The Dalai Lama has said repeatedly that he has. "It is my mantra – we are not seeking independence."

A tale of two nations

TIBETANS

• Mostly Buddhist Tibetans have lived on remote, high-altitude plateaus and grasslands by the Himalayas for centuries. Hundreds of thousands still follow a nomadic lifestyle, raising yaks, sheep, goats and horses on grasslands.

• Generally calling themselves 'Bodpa', they speak dialects derived from written Tibetan.

• Tibetans have been formally classed as one of China's 56 ethnic groups since Chinese troops were sent in 1950.

TIBETAN EXILES

• Tibet's Buddhist leader, the Dalai Lama, has lived in Dharamsala, India, since 1960, after fleeing Lhasa following a failed 1959 uprising.

• The founder and leader of Tibet's government-in-exile, the 72-year-old says he wants autonomy, not independence for Tibet. China brands him a separatist and blames him for last week's riots.

• The Tibetan government-in-exile says more than 111,000 Tibetans live in exile, the majority in India.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 22 March 2008 7:45 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
 
1

Rozz Fyffe,

Scotland 23/03/2008 03:18:39
Britain and USA scared to take action against the Chinese, however within 5 yrs I am sure there will be more than enough proof to take proper action
2

Scot Richards,

Beijing 23/03/2008 03:19:59
Interestingly this confirms exactly what the Chinese government have been saying all along - except for one slight error. The Chinese government have never accused the Dalai Lama of orchestrating the violence in Tibet - they have accused 'the Dalai Lama clique'.

Over the past few weeks the quality of Western journalism covering this story has been apalling. The BBC, CNN and Washington Post actually showed a picture of security forces in Nepal beating up Tibetan demonstrators and claimed it was in China. I think the uniform was a dead giveaway but lets not let facts get in the way of a good story.

My own staff in Lhasa are French Catholic women and they - along with Han Chinese and Hui Moslems - were threatened with violence by the 'peaceful' Tibetan monks. Thankfully they were rescued by the Chinese security forces and are now safely on a train back to Beijing. If a REAL journalist would like to hear the REAL story then you have my email address. But you'll be disappointed to hear that they will confirm what the Chinese government has been saying all along.
3

Guga II,

Rockall 23/03/2008 04:50:26
#2 I see you are another apologist for the gangster Chinese government that is hell bent on eliminating the Tibetans, their culture and their religion.

You'll be doing a Druginhead next and denying that their thugs, i.e. the PLA, have been shooting Tibetans, beating them up and gaoling them; and that they have tanks on the streets of Lhasa.

As for the gangster Chinese government not blaming the Dalai Lama, you will note in the article above that they "accused him of masterminding the uprising and called him a devil with a human face". If they aren't blaming him, how can they accuse him of masterminding the uprising?

In addition, can you blame some of the Tibetans for getting a bit nasty? They have been oppressed and subjugated by the murderous Chinese government since 1950. They had their country stolen from them, and the Chinese government is importing Han Chinese to swamp and run the country.
4

Scot Richards,

Beijing 23/03/2008 05:30:01
#3 Aplogist? who's doing the aplogising here? I suppose you know all about China, been here, lived here, speak the language, etc. I suppose you've also been to Lhasa and talked to people about their 'reverence' for the Dalai Lama? I doubt it.

The truth is that a bunch of thugs dressed in monks robes terrorised the 'ordinary' people of Lhasa - including a primary school. They burned a hospital to the ground - with patients still inside. This must be some new definition of 'peaceful demonstration'. And when the police step in - as they did to rescue my own 17 year old French student intern - the police are the bad guys? Wow.

Anybody have the nerve to ask the Dalai Lama if he still support slavery - as he did before he was kicked out? Sorry if my frankness made you spill your Chardonnay, but you should learn a bit more about China and Tibet before you shoot your mouth off and make a fool of yourself again.
5

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 23/03/2008 09:51:13
#2 Scot Richards

I take your point on the news coverage. However, Al Jazeera (English edition) did show film of Tibetans beating up Han Chinese in Lhasa.

With all the attention that Tibet is getting, I still feel frustrated that I am constantly presented with only the views of the Chinese government or the Dalai Lama "clique". Do these two groups between them really represent the majority view of people in Tibet?
6

Guga II,

Rockall 23/03/2008 10:19:24
#4 You are undoubtedly a mouth-piece for the gangster Chinese government, bearing in mind your open access to the Internet, that is more than the ordinary Chinese have. That being so, you will obviously continue to spread lies and propaganda on their behalf.

A small example of how the Internet is controlled by that murderous clique in the Chinese government, have a read at this extract from the Sydney Morning Herald from this morning:

"IMAGINE living in a country where bird flu is a constant danger, yet you can't look it up on Google. You're diagnosed with HIV AIDS but you can't search for a Facebook support network. You're trying to research a school project on religion but Wikipedia's content on the subject is blocked. You're in the mood for some distraction but can't access YouTube.

"Even worse, imaging living in a country where trying to find this information online could land you in trouble.

"This is the everyday reality for people in China, where online censorship is carried out by 30,000 internet police and state-owned internet service providers. And China is far from the only country in which controlling information and opinion in cyberspace is pervasive."

And, of course, the world's media are blocked from access to Tibet, so we only get you master's side of the story, i.e. lies.

Incidentally, I have been to, and lived in China.
7

Guga II,

Rockall 23/03/2008 10:23:18
#7 Segovae.

Try these sites:

http://www.phayul.com/

http://www.tchrd.org

And have a look, in particulat at this item:

http://www.tchrd.org/press/2008/pr20080318c.html
8

Proximaking,

Dundee 23/03/2008 10:29:42
Scot, ordinary Han chinese are stealing people's land and culture, and since your company is part of it you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Not only are the Tibetans at the mercy of the clique in Bejing but so too are the 99% of the Han chinese who are not as rich as those who pay them slave labour rates ...... including no doubt you and your company. Methinks thou dost protest too much. And no I have never been to china, I have never studied one of the revered Lama's turds either but I know a bunch of murdering thugs and their apologists when I see them whether they are dressed in robes or riot gear. Maybe you should remove the Yuan signs from your eyes and you might see more clearly.
9

Mashimaro,

China 23/03/2008 11:36:14
Well done for speaking the truth, Scot. The quality of journalism in this respect has been really bad, if not downright lies. CNN's "judicious" cropping of pictures misleads those viewing them.
BBC shows a picture of the People's Armed Police administering first aid to someone and their caption only mentions that there is a "heavy military presence" in Lhasa.
Berlin Morningpost posted a picture on its website in which police in Lhasa rescued a young man of Han nationality assaulted by rioters. But the caption said "insurrectionist taken away by police".
American Fox TV said in a picture's caption on its website that Chinese military dragged some protestors onto a vehicle but actually the uniformed people were Indian police.
N-TV headquartered in Germany used a TV footage in which Nepalese police captured protestors to report riot in Tibet.
The West has been crying "CRACKDOWN" before the first shot was fired.
So much for ethical reporting.
10

Mashimaro,

China 23/03/2008 11:54:36
proxymaking: Tibetans ARE Chinese.
Guga, people in china can use google. There are no tanks on the streets of Lhasa. You need to learnd the difference between a tank and an APC. And obviously you're swallowing all the rubbish put out by western media hook, line and sinker. Do us a favour and post a link to pictures of all this terrible stuff happening.
11

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 23/03/2008 12:04:50
#9 Guga

Thanks for the links, but they're not what I'm looking for. There are many websites like these, but they serve a particular point of view. They may be accurate, but how can I tell. I can find just as many sites put out by Chinese officialdom showing how much is being done for Tibet's development.

What I'm missing right now is the "we talked to many residents in Lhasa" kind of reporting from a wide range of media sources. We normally get this kind of reporting in other conflicts. While it also may not be accurate, it helps present broader views and concerns of the people involved. Right now, the only perspective I'm seeing and hearing is Dalai Lama good, China bad. I have no real conception of what the Tibetan people actually want.
12

Neil,

Glasgow 23/03/2008 12:23:49
I wonder if these "young and aggressive" types are being funded by any of thses "Non"-Governmental Organisations that channeled so much money into opposition campaigns across eastern Europe?

In any case the Chinese are undeniably showing thousands of times more respect for human rights in Tibet than our genocidal pro-Nazi leaders ever did in Kosovo & Krajina.
13

Mashimaro,

China 23/03/2008 12:59:26
Neil, I think Guga is being paid by these NGOs to spread lies about the current situation in Tibet.
14

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA...bye Bush -Cheney..u. evil leaders. 23/03/2008 16:06:13
15
Mashimaro,
China
------------------------------------------
Hey Dude .
Answer YES or NO to my 3 questions

Can the 1.3 billion Chinese citizens VOTE their conscience

Do the Chinese Gov. FORCE abortions on Chinese women

Do the Chinese Government execute 10K to 15k citizens every year.

If Ur answer is NO to all three questions . Show us proof so that we can verify.

GC
15

Shug,

23/03/2008 16:45:02
When exactly was Tibet a separate country? Very pc to support this free Tibet nonsense but I suspect it hasn't been an independent country (if ever) for many centuries. Not an excuse for the behaviour of the Chinese but can't help feel we don't get the full picture.
16

Biker,

Ayr 23/03/2008 16:47:03
Neil. You say the Chinese are showing more respect for human rights than the Nazis? I doubt it.
Consider the huge numbers of people being executed every year in China, along with sky high abortion rates. Then consider the number of disenfrinchised people in Beijing who are being moved so as their homes can be bulldozed to build Olympic stadia.
Even if it were the case that you are correct, do 2 wrongs make a right?
17

Guga II,

Rockall 23/03/2008 17:15:43
#13 Selgovae.

Unfortunately you won't be able to access reports from "the man in the street" in Tibet as the Chinese gangster government has blocked access to Tibet for all foreign media. That way they can control what comes out of Tibet, i.e. their lies and propaganda only.

#15 Mashforbrains.

That's a good one. Have your political masters in the gangster government there been instructing you in methods of propaganda a la Joseph Goebbels, i.e. the Big Lie theory? Plus, of course, like the Nazis, they are controlling the Chinese media as well as the Internet access there.

I'm beginning to wonder if that murderous bunch of thugs, i.e. the Chinese government, has a raft of paid mouth-pieces like yourself, or whether it is just the same one using different names. Maybe you're really DruginHead.

Incidentally, why don't you answer #16, GC's questions? Or haven't you had time to consult your masters yet to get a suitable answer whih conforms with their lies and propaganda?
18

Mashimaro,

China 23/03/2008 17:16:54
@ 16

Hey Dude

I'm tempted to give you the answer most of my compatriots would like to give you...

1...none of your business
2...none of your business
and three... refer to above.

Perhaps then you and others like you will finally realise that this is CHINA. And what China does in its own country is ... er... none of your business.
However, in the spirit of truth and fairness... here are my answers

1 - China is not a democracy in the western sense. It is China. However, since 1988 every village in the country has had to hold village elections every three years. You can find reference to it here... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4319954.stm

2 - No, the Chinese government does not force abortions on women. "Officially, compliance is enforced by way of financial incentives and punitive fines." http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200802/FOR20080229c.html . However, it happens that local officials will force abotion on those women who break the one-child law, it is still happening. I would prefer it if they also forced sterilization on the men who break the law too.

3. I don't know how many people are executed in China each year. Numbers of executions are not really the issue. Thesedays the Chinese judiciary has revised the law so that death sentences have to be approved by the supreme procuatorate. This move alone has seen these punishments drop dramatically.
19

Mashimaro,

China 23/03/2008 17:22:57
#13 Selgovae.

there is a report from a Canadian who saw what was going on in Lhasa. But I guess his story wasn't exciting enough or fit in with the west's preconcieved ideas of what went down in Lhasa. What he saw was rioting thugs stoning buildings and beating up civillians. I think only Xinhua was interested in reporting what he saw in their round of up internet chatrooms in china.
20

mac the tyke,

23/03/2008 18:03:58
#17 When was Tibet a free country? -
Have just had a good read of the potted history on Wikipedia: It seems that the Chinese link goes back centuries and even when Tibet declared independence in 1911, it seems no country recognised it. It also suggests that the Dalai Lama seeks autonomy for Tibet and not independence.
Perhaps the question should be asked why these "rioters" felt the need to take such extreme action. The Chinese authorities are gradually allowing their people more rights and privileges but they still crack down on those who dissent. They may consider they have the right to suppress this kind of opposition but is there evidence that those people would have been listened to simply through normal dialogue.
The problem is that the British are in no position to start calling names when Col Younghusband killed hundreds of Tibetan soldiers despite assuring their leaders they would not attack first. What was this all about - to ensure we and not the Russians could secure the trading supremacy in the region.

The rioters were not following the Dalai Lama's way of peaceful protest but equally the Chinese do not appear guilt-free. They should seek the way of enlightenment. Talk to each other and find a solution. Killing just leads to more killing.
21

Neil,

Glasgow 23/03/2008 18:10:50
Biker I said they were showing more respect for human rights than our own government. I would have thought they was no argument that they are showing more than Hitler.

Youn are correct that 2 wrongs do not make a right but would suggest that the greater wrong should receive the greater oprobrium & that, as British citizens, we should be more concerned about murders by our own government than that of China's. Failing both those tests strongly suggests that the primary motivation is not respect for human rights, which is merely being usedc as an excuse, but racial hatred & combined with a rose tinted view of of the Dalai lama & his followers presented by our media.

Galactic cannibal please answer Yes or No to my 3 questions:

1) "Democracy" should produce leaders who are honest, competent & are trusted & respected by the majority of citizens. Is there any western "democracy" which fails to live up to that.

2) Has our government repeatedly engaged in the war crime of launching aggressive wars murdering hundreds of thousands of people.

3) Does the British government pointlessly freeze to death 25,000 British pensioners who die from fuel poverty when the government knows perfectly well that we could produce unlimited quantities of cheap nuclear power if it were not for political dictats.

If the answer to any of these questions is No please provide proof.

You may point out that the people executed in China were Chinese serious criminals whereas most of the people we have murdered have been Serbian & Iraqui civilians but it is not obvious that that is an argument in our favour.
22

Neil,

Glasgow 23/03/2008 18:14:13
PS Britian offered to recognise Tibet as independent in Victorian times. The Tibetans refused saying they were part of China (& perhaps thinking that their "independence" would be about as genuine as what Kosovo is receiving).
23

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 23/03/2008 18:26:50
#19 Guga "Unfortunately you won't be able to access reports from "the man in the street" in Tibet as the Chinese gangster government has blocked access to Tibet for all foreign media."

I don't buy that. The BBC had guys reporting from Afghanistan before the invasion. I've seen BBC documentaries from Tibet about non-political things. Aljazeera reported that the Han Chinese that was beaten up on film was helped by a western foreigner. I think that if they wanted to report from Tibet, they could. But I suspect that for the western media, a quaint and rather nice nice old man in robes is the story. That and the ancient traditions and culture that are every hippy's fantasy. What about the fact that Tibet is one of the world's poorest regions with high infant mortality rates and low life expectancy. Who's addressing those issues?
24

Fanling,

Taiwan 23/03/2008 23:36:09
#12 Mashimaro,China

"China is not a democracy in the western sense. It is China."

What you rightly say in that simple sentence, and that is the point all the self-righteous China-damners on these boards continue to ignore, will never be enough to silence the armchair (rich mother's boy) quasi-revolutionary you reply to. His trite repetitious nonsense is best ignored as it emanates from an undeveloped brain and an otherwise idle life.

I know from my many years in China that it (and its people) is one of the finest countries in the world, and I do not say that lightly, having experienced many others. All the bull about "democracy" that emanates from similar armchair "right-on" lefties in the UK and the US will never comprehend what is happening in China in this century. The heat that is generated in that respect is from people who have either never been, never seen, or whose perception is permanently blighted by blind prejudice. Democracy, so called in Britain and elsewhere in the west, for example, is nowadays a load of b*llocks. Test it in Iraq and Afghanistan for starters and see where the belief gets you. I know which side I stand on.
25

Mashimaro,

China 24/03/2008 03:45:58
Hey Fanling

Are you happy with your election results? Seems Ma Ying-jeou really did a good job of cleaining up there.
Yes, I get quite angry when people outside the country try to dictate to us how we should run our country. We are not England or America or Germany. It is as if they want to sweep aside our history and our culture and even our way of thought and impose upon us their crude ideals. They have no respect for harmony and family. Their minions instigate this trouble to break China apart because they know if they can do that then more people will be poor and vulnerable to their own avarice. All you need to do is see what is happening in Eastern Europe to understand they have no sense of filial piety.
26

,

24/03/2008 03:47:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
27

Fanling,

Taiwan 24/03/2008 05:03:08
#27 Mashimaro

As a Luo-wai I take on board your comment on Ma Ying-jeou in Taiwan. Yes, ok there.

To the topic: no need to get angry. The fools that display their supposed anger on these boards (and they will be evident to you) know next to nothing about China. Their ignorance and venom are largely derived from ill-informed emotive media reports. I am a westerner with first-hand knowledge of everyday life in China, so I can speak with some kind of authority.

I really love the country and its wonderful people. This is based entirely on personal experience, and is something that the armchair critics from afar will never understand because they are force-fed a diet of media-inspired tripe which bases its veracity on a fragment of truth designed to sell newspapers and whip up emotions.

To truly understand a country and its people you must experience it first-hand. To shout and scream "Boycott the Olympics" and suchlike, with the knowledge of fools, is well ... foolish and ignorant. Too many fools on these forums follow that lead.



28

Mashimaro,

China 24/03/2008 05:44:59
25 Selgovae

Would you accept it if I told you I work for an independent newspaper in China? We have not had any reports of violence by military or police. We have also not been able to get our reporters in to talk to anyone in Lhasa, so we can't do any "eye-witness" accounts, only speak to those people who got out just after the unrest began.
This issues in Tibet actually have little to do with what the people think. For China, Tibet is a matter of national survival. It cannot let Tibet go. That is the bare bones of the problem. If you want to see why, take a good look at Tibet on a map.
That been said, as I have pointed out before, Tibet is not only full of Tibetans, but also full of Chinese.
Yes, the Chinese have been brutal in the past and in fact just recently in the supression of separatists. Just as it cracks down on other dissenting people. But things are changing for the better all the time.
Very basically it works like this... if you work in the system things will be okay. If you start to kick against the system the system will kick back. Now these separatists need to accept that and get on with their lives.
29

The Daleks,

Longmen 24/03/2008 06:30:26
#29

Laowai, as it is correctly spelled is a nasty little racist epithet that the Chinese regularly use to describe foreigners. The fact that you would attach it to yourself doesn't say much for you.

#30

Would you care to name your "independent" newspaper?
30

Mashimaro,

24/03/2008 06:31:55
25 Selgovae
"What about the fact that Tibet is one of the world's poorest regions with high infant mortality rates and low life expectancy. Who's addressing those issues?"

China is addressing those issues by the fact of building the rail line which will open Lhasa for trade and tourism and hopefully drag it into the 21st century. It is a battle even with that as many of the armchair critics don't seem to want any progress in that area, calling it an assault on Tibetan culture, almost as if they want to freeze the area in time, space and poverty.
31

Mashimaro,

China 24/03/2008 07:27:56
#31 I would not care to name the newspaper as I am merely a journalist, not an official spokesperson for the paper.
32

Mashimaro,

China 24/03/2008 08:41:52
I would be more worried about the shoddy ethics of the western press regarding this matter.
To quote Xinhua: The British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) released a picture on its website showing Chinese Armed Police officers helping medical staff move a wounded person into an ambulance.

The website's caption said that "there is a heavy military presence in Lhasa", neglecting the obvious First Aid and Red Cross signs on the ambulance.

. . .

German newspaper Berliner Morgenpost posted a picture on its website that depicted police in Lhasa rescuing a young man assaulted by rioters. But the caption said "insurrectionist taken away by police".

U.S.-based Fox TV said in a picture caption on its website that Chinese military personnel dragged some protestors onto a vehicle, when actually the uniformed people were Indian police.

N-TV, headquartered in Germany, used TV footage showing police with captured protestors in a report on the Tibet riots. The footage had been shot in Nepal and the police were Nepalese.

33

Biker,

Ayr 24/03/2008 11:42:26
Neil.
Sorry but I dont accept you hypothesis that China is less barbaric than the Nazis. I do not support or agree with any Nazi doctorine but the methodology and flagrant abuses of human rights amounts to the same.
The Chinese have shown their lack of respect for human rights on many accasions. Even in the recent past we should consider Tianenman Square a prime example of how they deal with dissent. I wonder how many people were executed or indeed still languish in jail as a result of mearly speaking their mind.
Executions in the region (China) appear to be random and growing year upon year, so do I take it from that , that as a crime prevention method it is failing badly. Possibly the numbers are growing due to the number of human parts harvested?
As a UK resident, let me take up the questions posed to Gallactic Cannibal.
1 Democracy does indeed provide truthfull and good leaders. Most of whome enter polotics for the greater good and with good intentions. The problem arises after some period when they lose touch with the electorate. To suggest they enter for less than noble reasons is wrong.
2 War I agree to a point with your feelings here but ballance it with caution. We entered the Iraq conflict based on a lie and I agree we should withdraw. It is never straightforward. I dont think we have murdered thousands.
3 We resolutely do NOT freeze pentioners annually as a matter of cource and to suggest this is facile at best. What a rediculous comment.
34

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

24/03/2008 13:27:56
BOYCOTT THE OLYMPICS

FREE THE PANCHEN LAMA!!
35

Biker,

Ayr 24/03/2008 14:31:22
Moshimo. So because China is China we should overlook all the human rights violations ?????
36

,

24/03/2008 14:39:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
37

Fanling,

Taiwan 24/03/2008 17:18:46
#31 The Daleks,Longmen

You correctly point out my cack-handed typing: the intended spelling is indeed Lao wai.

You are perfectly free - if incorrect - to interpret the Chinese word for foreigner as "a nasty little racist epithet ..." That is a more than a touch over the top. Words like "Chinky" and "Pak*i", commonly heard on UK streets, carry a real undercurrent of offence. "Lao wai" does not belong in that category. (Incidentally, The Scotsman disallows the P-word but allows the C-word - does that tell you something about this guttersnipe publication?)

We can extend likewise your "nasty little racist epithet" to those in French-speaking lands who label the foreigner "étranger". Not a particularly agreeable word, but there we go.

Please come off your high-and-mighty pedestal and get your facts in order before handing out unfounded condemnation. The fact that I did attach that appellation to myself is a plain and simple matter of fact. I accept without demur, that I AM a foreigner in China, as I am in any country outside of Scotland. What is your problem?

38

Conan,

Chile 24/03/2008 20:36:36
Its not about the Dalai Lama - its about the criminal occupation of Tibet by the Chinese Communist Mafia Government and their functionaries - that's what its about.
39

Mashimaro,

China 25/03/2008 02:00:09
@ Biker, Because it is China you should realise that it is not like the west. You have little to no understanding of the country or its people. It is as if you people say "We're horses. You must be horses too." We are not the same.
You as an ethnic group allow your people to slide into depravaties and we do not. Your idea of "human rights" is completly different from ours. I had someone in the US tell me once that it is a "human right" to have a baby. No it's not. Not when you have 1.3 billion other mouths to feed, and if you don't curb your population everyone will be poor and starving for ever because no other country wants to give up its land to be farmed, there isn't enough potable water to give everyone enough to drink...etc etc etc.
People here wave the flag of Tienaman. Consider the alternative. Consider that the students were agitated by western countries with their own agendas. It was a ploy by western countries - possibly you own - to let the locals tear each other apart and then come in and pick over the carcass.
Consider what would have happened to China if the protests had spread. Is that what you want? Innocents killed, rivers of blood in the streets?
What do you think would have happened? Because when Britons protest, at best it might be a few hundred people. When Chinese protest that figure climbs to hundreds of thousands. Hong Kong only has 7 million people - when it protested 500,000 of those came out on to the streets. Can you imagine the bloodshed and violence, the complete destruction if a mob like that went ferral?
The whole country would have collapsed - that is what the west wanted. If the country collapses who will ensure that the 1.3 billion get food, water, housing? You? I doubt it.
How many years would that have set China back? This country has been there. Done that. Got the communist flag.
You keep on calling the government thugs... who do you think would have been running the ruin that would have been China if Tienamen had b
40

Mashimaro,

China 25/03/2008 02:02:51
#Conan: read the above reply... understand what will happen to China if Tibet was allowed to break away.
It amazes me that people like you think for one second that Tibet would be any better off than it is now. It it were to break away the Dalai Lama would be in charge. What will happen to women under him? Hmmm? Do you think he should be allowed to return to keeping slaves? How about the human rights of the people under that kind of rule?

FREE AMERICA!!!
41

Mashimaro,

China 25/03/2008 02:04:42
Ah, I see these replies have a length curb on them so to complete my reply to Biker..

who do you think would have been running the ruin that would have been China if Tienamen had been allowed to continue? Mother Theresa? People would have starved to death in their millions. Is that what you think is a good "human right" for this country? You want millions of children to die through lack of water? Or to drown in the flooding? Is that what you want? You want disease to return and China to be back on the World relief list?
If a few people suffer because they were stupid enough to try to bring that upon my country and my people - forgive me if I'm not very sympathetic to their cause.



FREE AMERICA!!!
42

The Daleks,

Longmen 25/03/2008 02:04:42
Laowai is an offensive term, used offensively. If you don't know that by now, you're clearly not as in touch with China as you think you are.

What other people in other countries call foreigners isn't the issue. It's about you standing up for a country that detests foreigners and even going as far as to label yourself with one of their pejorative terms for a foreigner.
43

The Daleks,

Longmen 25/03/2008 02:09:08
The above was addressed to #39
44

Fanling,

Taiwan 25/03/2008 03:06:21
#44 The Daleks

Clearly you have an issue that irks you. A personal issue that no amount of rational discussion will deflect. Why do you insist that I am "standing up for a country ... blah blah?" Selective slagging, that is, to fit your poor grasp of argument. It is a waste of my time arguing over your insistence that Lao wai is "a pejorative term", and China is "a country that detests foreigners". Don't make me laugh, sad boy. You are so wrong.

Over time I have met, and retain valuable friendships with, some of the nicest, and most decent people on this earth in China. Something I can't say for other parts of the world, and I am well travelled. My experience of China and Chinese people runs into many years, so I could be said to be pretty well acquainted with the scenario and the linguistic niceties, even if you assert differently with your one-eyed view.

You must have had a bad experience. I have had no such bad experience. Whatever the cause of your poisoned viewpoint (and you have every right to it), I do not know and care even less. Now please go away and stew quietly in the bile that makes you such a deeply unhappy person.
45

Conan,

Chile 25/03/2008 05:36:48
#42, Marshmallow - I have attempted to understand your post, but you appear to be talking Gibberish.
46

Mashimaro,

China 25/03/2008 08:22:16
Conan: If you had to return the Dalai regime to power in Tibet what do you see happening to things like women's rights and slavery.
What do you think will happen to China?
47

The Daleks,

Longmen 26/03/2008 01:25:28
#46

So dishing out childish insults is what you consider to be reasoned debate?

You've been in China too long.
48

Fanling,

Taiwan 26/03/2008 18:42:00
#49

You kicked off with "childish insults". I ended it. Or tried to. Please leave it as it's going nowhere.
49

Neil,

Glasgow 29/03/2008 14:25:27
Biker 35 if you cannot recognise a difference between the activities of the Nazis (40 million murdered) & the current Chinese regime (about 10 in Tibet, probably a few 10s of thousands elsewhere overall) while considering them both incomparably worse than us (up to 1.4 million in Iraq & Yugoslavia) I am at a loss to understand on what humanitariann basis your assessment is made.
50

James Donald,

Newbridge 29/03/2008 21:39:51
#51 Neil,Glasgow 29/03/2008 - 40 million murdered? Here is an assessment of casualties in WW2 from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
72 million in total a good portion of which were in the Pacific Theatre and China. Do you just make you figures up to suit your prejudice?
51

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

03/04/2008 10:17:12
http://en.epochtimes.com/news/5-6-21/29682.html

 

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