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Deal 'may let Robert Mugabe flee Zimbabwe and dodge prosecution'

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Published Date: 02 April 2008
THE end of Robert Mugabe's reign looked to be drawing near last night as senior aides tried to negotiate a "safe haven" deal for the 84-year-old dictator in South Africa, following his likely defeat by Morgan Tsvangirai in last weekend's presidential polls.
Mr Mugabe, who has ruled Zimbabwe with an iron grip since 1980, has been told he is trailing the Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) leader in preliminary results sources said.

It emerged yesterday that the president's right-hand man, Emmerson Mnangagwa, flew to Pretoria on Monday to discuss plans for a safe haven, which would see Mr Mugabe immune from prosecution at The Hague.

Another option for Mr Mugabe may be to fly to Malaysia.

Last night, in his first public appearance since the election, Mr Tsvangirai said his party was not involved in the deal.

At a news conference, the MDC leader insisted: "Let me inform you there is no way the MDC will enter into any deal before the electoral commission has announced the results.

"Let's wait for the election commission to complete its work, then we can discuss the circumstances that will affect the people," he said.

He added: "Robert Mugabe has said he's an honest man. I hope that when the results are announced, it's a true reflection of the vote and there's no reason to investigate fraud."

Mr Tsvangirai also urged the electoral commission "to proceed with haste, and I think two and a half days is not haste at all." His party will release its own complete tallies today. Mr Mugabe has been warned he could provoke a Kenya-style uprising if he declared himself the winner of the polls.

It has also emerged that, as the full scale of Mr Mugabe's defeat became clear to observers, Zimbabwe's security chiefs ordered the country's electoral commission to announce parliamentary results so it looked as if the MDC and Mr Mugabe's ruling Zanu-PF were closely matched. Since Monday, the Zimbabwe Electoral Commission (ZEC) has had to stage-manage announcements, broadcasting small batches of results every four or five hours.

By last night, authorities had announced results for 140 out of 210 constituencies. The two factions of the MDC had taken a total of 72 seats with 68 for Zanu-PF.

The MDC believes Mr Tsvangirai has won between 55 and 56 per cent of the vote on the back of widespread discontent with Mr Mugabe's disastrous 28-year rule.

However, analysts have warned that Mr Mugabe may yet find a way to cling to power. In a clear sign of unease, the former guerrilla leader has not been seen in public since Saturday.

Concerns have also been raised that Mr Mugabe could grab the presidency and dissolve parliament by presidential decree – possible according to Zimbabwe's constitution.

Zimbabwe's master vote-rigger is down but not out

ROBERT Mugabe, who rigged Zimbabwean election results in his favour three times between 2000 and 2005, is facing the biggest challenge yet to his vote-juggling skills following the presidential and parliamentary elections.

The problem facing Mr Mugabe is that the opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) has so obviously, by nearly every informed account, won both polls by huge majorities.

However, no-one should discount the 84-year-old's skill.

The huge delay in the release of the results indicates Mr Mugabe and his top party and military aides are shocked by the scale of the defeat. But it is equally certain they are working on a surprise that will, at least, maintain for them a degree of power and rule out prosecution for crimes against humanity.

The few people, beyond his immediate circle, who are reasonably close to Mr Mugabe believe he is emotionally incapable of admitting defeat.

However, one whisper in Harare is that he is preparing to do so and will accept a safe exile, probably in Malaysia, where he has stashed most of his considerable wealth. For a man who has said: "Let me be Hitler tenfold," who has boasted of his "degrees in violence" and has warned he will only be taken from power in a coffin, this is the least likely scenario.

Another whisper is he is preparing to share power with MDC leader Morgan Tsvangirai. This is not impossible, but Mr Tsvangirai would need to be at his most naive to accept such an arrangement. That leaves fixing the election in favour of himself and the ruling ZANU-PF party.

The slow fix, in which Mr Tsvangirai's vote would be declared at just under 50 per cent, would involve a run-off presidential election between the MDC leader and Mr Mugabe. This would give Mr Mugabe, his military chiefs and ruling party bigwigs plenty of time to manipulate the poll.

But the way parliamentary election results are oozing out suggest a late spurt of votes for ZANU-PF from rural areas will secure a narrow majority in parliament. In which case, why delay fixing of the presidential vote?

Mr Mugabe will go for the quick fix. He will then step down in the next five years, secure in the knowledge that he can live without fear of prosecution. A new ZANU-PF leadership will then try to repair the damage he has inflicted on his country: it will be a prolonged job.

• Fred Bridgland launched and edited for the past three years the Zimbabwe Report of the London-based Institute for War and Peace Reporting.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 02 April 2008 5:25 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

,

02/04/2008 00:46:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 02/04/2008 01:15:11
Did Tony Bliar negotiate a deal with Gordon Brown?
3

Guga II,

Rockall 02/04/2008 02:08:19
The only safe place Mugabe should be given is on a scaffold with a noose around his neck.
4

donald,

glasgow 02/04/2008 06:03:40
He could join the Labour Party for immunity, but be careful he doesn't land in Edinburgh with a few miniatures in his carpetbag.
5

Catina,

Johannesburg 02/04/2008 06:35:57
Had a good chuckle at the idea of him moving to South Africa as a "Safe Haven". I'd opt for Malaysia if I were him, they hate him less.
6

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 02/04/2008 06:58:53
Hello All,

I'd just like to point out that given Mugabe's past actions, his numerous speeches pertaining to power/politics, and his very great penchant for violence, I would suggest to you all that tongue-in-cheek quickies above presented, are missing the mark.

I do believe people, that there is a real possibility that Mugabe may well go out 'with a blaze of glory': murdering all those folks he's wanted to murder for years, but could not allow himself such a luxury, because of realpolitik-the need to not 'go beyond a certain point'.

The 'no go point' would have been perceived as having been a threat to his remaining in power directly, or indirectly, in that the deaths of those he wanted to murder would have brought down a mountain of international political headaches, which he could not weather.

This latest election has changed all of that people. He now has ZERO restraints on his hate and violence: he has lost power and understands that this knowledge is both public amongst the masses, the elite, and horrifically (from his point of view), in the international community.

Couple this knowledge with the fact that Zimbabwe is economically, wholly unviable, and it is quite clear that Mugabe probably sees ZERO real world impediment, to 'letting loose' with wholly unfettered violence.

He certainly has a ready and waiting cadre of henchmen who know that if Mugabe goes down, THEY go down. They also understand that THEY do NOT have the wealth necessary to live in the style to which they've become accustomed.

Since they can't leave Zimbabwe as can Mugabe, one of their only real avenues to not ending up in prison or on a gallows, is to do their best to exterminate as many of their enemies as physically possible, before those enemies, the New Power Brokers, come into power and are then able to hunt the culprits down.

I don't know if anyone in the press has bothered to address this real world possibility (I would say probability.), because so far I've no
7

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 02/04/2008 07:08:00
Hello All CONT,

I don't know if anyone in the press has bothered to address this real world possibility (I would say probability.), because so far I've not seen a single AP,Reuters, CNN, Fox, etc., report about this option open to Mugabe.

The Whiskey Flights during the Reign of Terror by Idi Amin were nothing compared to the wealth showered upon Mugabe's Cadres by the Mass Murderer Mugabe, and so these cadres have MUCH to lose, including their lives.

Most folks in the West have little to no understanding of what kind of violence humans are willing to do to others, even fewer people in the West have ever met or understand individuals who actually thrive on violence and love to inflict violence on others, most times for little to no excuse.

Oh, most folks read plenty of stories in newspapers about it, or see some limited and very sanitized versions on the newshour, but they've no sense of the reality of spilled blood and people crying out in severe pain/agony, or what spilled blood smells like.

Most folks in the West have had it too good for too long, and are no longer in touch with the realities that much of the rest of the world experience on a regular basis: we're too well fed, too comfortable, too well ordered, we're lulled into a false sense of reality-even with 'ordinary' things like our pets. The most violence ordinary people in the West have seen, is when their cat brings in a mouse/rat and plays with it until it is finally dead.

I would remind us all, that even cornered rats will fight the most powerful of opponents, so they can at least cause as much harm as possible, before they themselves, are killed. The one last great act of defiance, as it were.

The blood will continue to flow in Zimbabwe and for the next few months, it will turn from a few slow rivulets, into raging rivers which seem to never calm down and dry up.

Cheers from the Rockies
8

Catina,

Johannesburg 02/04/2008 07:16:32
Neanderthal75...
I couldn't agree more. We have no idea the extent of what has been happening in Zim, only when you speak to a Zimbabwean themselves do you realise to some small degree to horror of it all. Sadly, this is not the end. He is not the type to go down easy, neither are his followers.
9

,

02/04/2008 07:24:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

Phil C,

02/04/2008 07:39:00
#12 Meeja

While I agree with you on Mugabe, are you not being just a wee tad racist in your point about Africans running their own affairs!!

Unfortunately Mugabe will probably come to the banana republic aka the UK, and join the Labour Party. That's what everyone else seems to do to escape prosecution for war crimes, fraud, lying to the people and parliament, wasting billions, prime incompetence, greasing palms, paying for priviledge....etc etc.

Hopefully Scotland can soon be a wastrel free zone, and folk like Mugabe will stay well clear.
11

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 02/04/2008 07:50:20
Hello Phil C,

Media 1 is NOT being racist: he is stating the sad state of real world affairs across Sub-Saharan Africa. Go ahead and look at ANY Sub-S. nation and show me just 1/One nation which is either maintaining a positive economic environment, or actually IMPROVING the economic situation?

You won't be able to so do.

Further, you won't be able to present a single instance of ANY Sub-S. nation where the Rule of Law actually holds sway.

S.A. WAS a nation where the Rule of Law prevailed, but that ENDED when the terrorist Mandela and his ANC took power; it's taken them a while to cripple the most powerful economy in all of Africa (and I mean ALL of Africa, not just Sub-S. A.).

Take your politically correct glasses off will you Phil C and take a look at what is going on without the Social Progressive restrictions.

People continue to die in droves throughout Africa and the rest of the globe, because the PC mindset refuses to acknowledge the reality of what is going on in countries and their governments.

I'm no longer willing to allow that to happen without at least raising the issue in real terms and the PC Crowd's accusations and plaintives be d a m n e d.

Cheers from the Rockies
12

Phil C,

02/04/2008 08:04:12
#14 Neanderthal

Hello to you too.

While I accept your points as factually correct in many ways, I hope things change from within. I don't think reimposing white colonial supremacy is the answer. Nor is just pc to allow people to run their own affairs. It's simple human rights. If they want to screw it up, so be it. The west should be ready to stop the attrocities, but we seem to be more concerned with oil, wealth and other petty national issues than developing a better world.
13

Boy Wonder,

02/04/2008 08:04:15
Never thought I'd see him step aside willingly. He must be going for a non-prosecution deal. I sincerely hope they agree to that ... get him out ... then break their word and huckle this dictatorial murderer into an international court. If they don't hang him first!
14

haggis 10,

Capital city of Scotland 02/04/2008 08:07:48
Action speaks louder than words Hang The B'stard
15

haggis 10,

02/04/2008 08:09:40
Slowly for 26 years in Harare town square
16

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News 02/04/2008 08:46:59
Don't forget those who *willingly* supported and sometimes led the way forward in inflicting his atrocities.
17

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 02/04/2008 09:16:41
Why do we automatically believe the opposition has won ? And why do we automatically believe the stories of atrocities ? How do we in Britain know ? Mugabe has won many elections so how can the country be all that bad ? Vote Labour .
18

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 02/04/2008 09:25:54
Hello again Phil C,

I applaud your sentiments, building a better world is a commendable goal, unfortunately reality, realpolitik, and geo-politics, require more than positive thoughts and laudable goals.

I'm not advocating reinstitution of 'white supremacy', I'm advocating intelligent decision making and that is NOT a black African strong point: that isn't racist, it's historical and current FACT!

Secondly, allow me to point out that in order to 'stop the atrocities' as you put it, the 'international community' would have to actually use violent military force. The United Nations has shown that it is spineless in such cases (Rwanda, the Balkans, Sudan, come to mind), so where and who does Europe look to, to have such problems solved?

America and Great Britain, sometimes France, but rarely.

Should America NOT answer the call by the Europeans, we're called rather nasty names and blamed for all and sundry that goes on in whatever country is in the middle of a blood bath. Should America answer the call, we're called bullies and warmongers, so we really can't win.

Thirdly, I hate to burst your bubble on this one, but OIL is the lifeblood of the ENTIRE WORLD ECONOMY. The very computer you are using was partially produced, using petroleum based products-OIL which was pumped out of the ground, shipped for processing, processed into its constituent parts, and viola, you bought your computer.

When it comes to the Iraq War, I always try and stress one clear point to the anti-American crowd (you may or may not be one such): were 'you' so vocal and animated when Saddam Hussein was merrily murdering the 1.5 MILLION men, women, and children, under his control, (which the UN states he did), prior to the war?

Did 'you' protest Saddam's invasion of Kuwait and his goal of attacking and controlling Saudi Arabia? Did 'you' join your fellows in streets marches when Saddam ransacked Kuwait hospitals, banks, shops, etc., or when he allowed his troops to rape any Ku
19

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 02/04/2008 09:27:23
Hello Phil C Again CONT.

Did 'you' protest Saddam's invasion of Kuwait and his goal of attacking and controlling Saudi Arabia? Did 'you' join your fellows in streets marches when Saddam ransacked Kuwait hospitals, banks, shops, etc., or when he allowed his troops to rape any Kuwaiti women they could capture?

If the answer is 'no', then I fail to see any moral high ground or certitude, for 'your' anti-American/Iraq War stance now.

Lastly, allow me to point out that I never said that it was Politically Correct to be for self-rule of any people: I'm in support of a Free Tibet as an example. I pointed out that PC people help to screw up any given situation, make matters worse by and large, and generally end up getting people killed in both the short and long runs.

How and why do the PC'ers do this? By denying reality in favor of theory: if it 'sounds right' then it ought to actually be right. Real life doesn't work that way Phil: it never has and it never will.

The case in point is virtually ANY former African Colony of a European power. You simply cannot hand over a country to people who do NOT understand how a free capitalist economy works, no matter how 'educated' they are, and expect any results other than disastrous.

Mugabe is a prime example: obviously well educated, very intelligent by any reasonable standards, yet look what he did to the economy and how he did it!

The man has a doctorate and several other degrees, which means he is NOT short of brains and how to use them, but lo and behold, look at what he has wrought in Zimbabwe.

The 'Why' of it is simple: at his roots, he was and IS a 'tribalist': he was Shona first and foremost.

He was secondly a Marxist, economically speaking. Putting Marxist in charge of a free market capitalist economy is like handing a live hand grenade to a toddler: only bad things will happen, and those bad things will be LOUD, DEADLY, and DESTRUCTIVE, to all and sundry.

You can see the same thing happenin
20

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 02/04/2008 09:28:53
Hello Phil C Again CONT,

You can see the same thing happening right now in South Africa. Media 1 thinks it S.A. will be another Zimbabwe in about 15 years. While I agree with the result he forecasts, I disagree with his timing: it'll be a maximum of 5 years until S.A. is in the same straits as Zimbabwe.

Marxists simply cannot help themselves: their political ideology does not allow them to understand how a free market economy works, why it works, and what happens if you screw it up by imposing non-free market policies on it.

The South Africans are in the midst of their 'Toddler' (the ANC) pulling the pin on that hand grenade in his grasp.

Whether you and I like it or not, we live in the real world and must live, act, and decide, based on the world's rules and not our own: oil is the economic life blood of all modern nations, without it we ALL turn into Zimbabwe.

Who controls that oil lifeline IS important. Right now the PRC is trying to buy up as much of the oil supply and sourcing as it can (and you and I are handing over our money to the PRC so they can do that), to use it as both a tool to further improve their economy and to use as a political tool to bang over the heads of the West.

Like the people of Zimbabwe, we'd all better wake up and smell the decaying bodies around us, before WE become one of those decaying bodies.

Cheers from the Rockies
21

Catina,

Johannesburg 02/04/2008 09:35:18
#22 I agree, most in Britian, and in fact the rest of the world dont know whats going on there. But make no mistake, atrocities have happened. I have spoken to several Zimbabweans who tell of only their personal atrocities which reflect a small percentage of what is really going on.
If you are willing to swim across the Limpopo river into South Africa and be willing to rather brave the crocodiles and hippos than live under Mugabe's regime, that tells you something
22

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 02/04/2008 09:58:08
Hello Rules,

Depends on the time of year and where crossing, would it not?

Hippos kill more people in Africa than crocs and lions, and the crocs are no slouch at munching on people, particularly along the Nile.

I can't depart without asking this time worn question:
"Who lives on the greasy, green, banks of the Limpopo River, all surrounded by 'Feber/Fever' trees?

The Answer later.

Cheers from the Rockies.
23

Catina,

02/04/2008 09:58:35
yes # 26 but when you can't cross at Beit Bridge legally, you cross the Limpopo. True story
24

Anglofile,

02/04/2008 10:03:25
Will all the Doctor's who got "free" cars last week for their votes have to give them back?

I hear that Mr Brown is preparing to let Mugabe come to Britain on the "points" system. He recognises that Mugabe has certain skills that would benefit him. i.e. How to stay in power for a lot longer than people want!!!!!
25

Royc,

London 02/04/2008 10:30:22
One of the central problems is that this is a tribal issue. Zanu/PF is largely Shona, MDC largely Matabele. With Mugabe in, the more numerous Shona and associated tribes have power and money and they are not going to give that up lightly. Blame Cecil Rhodes for creating this two-in-one country. Anyone who thinks the two lived peacefully side by side forgets the rampages and brutality of the 5th (6th?) Brigade in Matabeland. The vital point is the emergence of the third candidate, who is Shona, ex ZANU/PF and anti-Mugabe. For the first time, the vote in Mashonaland is split between the regime and the opposition. For this reason, it is perfectly likely that the opposition has won a majority. It also gives some hope for the future. However, the Shona in power and in the militias won't go lightly, they have everything to lose and even an amnesty for past crimes won't make up for loss of power and money.
26

weewumman,

Bristol 02/04/2008 10:35:22
#22 "Why do we automatically believe the opposition has won ? And why do we automatically believe the stories of atrocities ? How do we in Britain know ?"

My cousin was born in Zimbabwe; Her father moved there from Glasgow over 50 years ago. Under Mr Mugabe's regime they have seen most of their friends, black AND white, driven out by land-grabbing "bully-boys" for fear of their lives!

She and her family have stuck it out under terrible conditions because, in her words "This is our home. We were born here and love Zimbabwe".

It has been the courage and determination of Zimbabweans like her and her neighbours which seems to have finally allowed the opposition party to prevail. I've not had any emails from her for a couple of weeks. I'm praying she can get to a PC very soon.

I hope that answers your question #22
27

Davy,

http://www.theinsider.org/reports/new-world-order/ 02/04/2008 11:14:00
We the brits, under Maggies rule gave that man the power we could have gone for Nikomo.
The big guns thought at the time Mugabe would be the perfect puppet. Who are the big guns
http://www.theinsider.org/reports/new-world-order/

28

James (1),

02/04/2008 11:14:24
#22 No doubt you are one of those people who think the earth is flat?
29

Stu_R_20,

02/04/2008 11:20:56
This man's government almost shot my uncle, one of the many "white farmers" who were apparently raping the country and holding back the natives. He employed many natives in fruit picking etc. Sold his crops at regulated prices and over night had to leave his 900 acre farm. Now the country is starving, I have little sympathy for them.
30

oder,

Scotland 02/04/2008 11:44:46
No deals! for this evil tyrant, he has to be made an example of, so that future tyrants can understand what to expect when they abuse their powers!
31

voltaire's janny,

02/04/2008 12:02:55
Early in 1981 as part of a last hurrah with my fellow University of Glasgow undergraduates, we had a staff student rugby match. One classmate, Wilbur, was a Zimbabwean; he had never played rugby and when he got the ball in open field he tossed it like an NFL quarterback in the forward direction, to no-one on particular. We all fell about laughing uncontrollably and the game took a good few minutes to resume.

Afterwards he and I discussed the news from former Rhodesia. Names that tripped off Angela Ripon's pseudo-African tongue were well known in those days; Joshua Nkomo, Ndabningi Sithole, Bishop Abel Muzorewa and Robert Mugabe had won the conflict and toppled minority white rule.

My acquaintance, Wilbur, was so excited, happy and optimistic about Mugabe's assumption of power. He had just brokered a deal with Nkomo to enable single party rule. I expressed dsquiet at this but Wilbur's joy and optimism were infectious.

I never saw him again after that day. He went to Africa and I to the North Sea. I often think about how he got on. Did he become a ZANU-PF suporter? a henchman? maybe a victim?

As Mugabe's despotism has descended its long fall to ruin I have despaired as to why the simple ideas of peaceful transition of power, democratic election and public expectation that governance should be impartial and not corrupt completely fail to take root in Africa.

I don't have the answer and don't bother posting any colonial blame bullsh1t. Freedom fighters have shown again and again in that sorry continent that they can not govern when that freedom is won.

Today the MDC and Tsvangirai are on the cusp of power. I wonder if he is able in his time in office to change that behaviour, install true multi party, non-tribal democracy and, when the time comes, step aside gracefully?

Or will the much needed rebuilding, economic imperatives etc etc be used to consolidate another tyrant and his cronies?
32

Bish,

Embru 02/04/2008 12:08:46
While I can well understand the sentiment behind the comment that Mugabe should be hanged - quick or slow or worse - I cannot help but feel that, should he have the perception that a long drop from a short rope awaits him, his and his cronies are all the more likely to realise that 'cornered rat' scenario that Neanderthal75 paints very well and realistically in 9 & 10 may occur, to catastrophic effect for the long-suffering ordinary people in Zim whose only crime here is to dare hope for a brighter future & another chance to help their country get out of its mess.

I, perhaps naively, am more of a proponent of mercy triumphing over judgement, and hope indeed that the comments in 20 are indeed correct. For a nation such as Zim, which has gone through the most tormented ordeal over the past 2 decades, forgiveness & mercy are the only foundation that will enable the country to recover. Will it happen that way? Only time - probably a short time - will tell. But one can only hope. And pray.
33

Calum Crubag,

02/04/2008 12:43:21
So, why isn't Milliband and the other Labour hypocrites saying the same things about China?
34

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 02/04/2008 13:04:09
I see the opposition say they have won but what would you expect them to say ? If they have , the country will just be a base for US imperalist aggression .
35

Rods,

02/04/2008 13:33:52
Neanderthal75
You said : 'Go ahead and look at ANY Sub-S. nation and show me just 1/One nation which is either maintaining a positive economic environment, or actually IMPROVING the economic situation?'

Ghana.Maintaining and improving. And you can walk the streets in saftey at any time of the day.
36

Rods,

02/04/2008 13:34:04
Neanderthal75
You said : 'Go ahead and look at ANY Sub-S. nation and show me just 1/One nation which is either maintaining a positive economic environment, or actually IMPROVING the economic situation?'

Ghana.Maintaining and improving. And you can walk the streets in saftey at any time of the day.
37

Media 1,

cape town 02/04/2008 13:59:09
Rods: We did some advertising up in Ghana for the African Nations cup, and the place is a poverty ridden sh!t hole!
I have travelled this continent North to South and East to West, and only one nation thus far is succeeding. BOTSWANA!
The rest are corrupt and irresponsible nothing states that rape their people of their dignity, murder them and starve them.
South Africa is in total decline due to the African way, and that is that! What has racism got to do with anything you fool?
Black governed nations are a disaster, end of story!
Mugabe is a F@CKING MONSTER, and he is about to be handed a one way ticket out of Zimbabwe for the good life in South Africa with his ANC croonies who are also hell bent on destorying a nation.
563 Members of the ANC government and over 330 of them are up on charges ranging from extortion to racketerring, kidnap and sexual harassment!
Dont talk to me about racism you idiot, I live this country, I breath it, eat it and sleep it. I am passionate about this place and when I see people destroying it through incomeptence and a lack of respect it p!sses me off.
38

Pomona man,

Kirkwall 02/04/2008 14:16:01
Yes, oil is a very potent drug. The fact that we have now passed the 50% used up point coupled with unprecedented demand from China and India means there is no sign of the price slowing its relentless upward trend above $100/barrel. So the US and UK stay in Iraq. We fear the US intent towards Iran (For weapons of mass distruction read nuclear proliferation). And meanwhile the developed world sits back and allows Zimbabwe to self destruct. No Oil, no support.

How bloody short sighted. Zimbabwe used to be the most productive agricultural country in Africa. I can well remember only a few years ago buying first class Zimbabwean produce in the supermarket. Of course, it has all gone now, and Zimbabwe cannot even feed itself.

One of the greatest threats to world stability is the current global shortage of grain. There is a shortfall in production, and of what is produced too much now is being used to produce bio-fuel (as oil priced climb). Consequently those who depend on these food basics to survive are starving.

Zimbabwe may not have oil, but, from a strategiec standpoint has the next best thing - land proven to be capable of large scale agricultural production.

So if I can see this, surely Brown & Bush can too. The lack of support from them can surely only point to one thing. US & UK foreign policy is actually driven by major multi-national corporations, and the most powerful of those, apart from CocaCola and Microsoft, are the oil giants.
39

Media 1,

cape town 02/04/2008 14:49:44
Pomona

African mindset = No success and absolute Chaos!
European Mindset = Success!
Japanese Mindset = Success!
Chinese Mindset = Success!
Asian Mindset = Emerging success and some chaos!
South American Mindset = Relative success, no need to send them massive amounts of foreign aid each year!

Mugabe should be stoned for his crimes against humanity! Although I would settle for life in jail.
40

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta; . CA.....a place in the Sun 02/04/2008 17:42:32
Deal 'may let Robert Mugabe flee Zimbabwe and dodge prosecution'.
-----------------------------------
Dudes,

Southern Rhodesia (Zimbabwe)

Unemployment = 80% .
Average life expectancy 38 years
One in four people have HIV/Aids
HIV/Aids deaths in 2003 =170,000 people
GDP - per capita = $500 per year
Population below poverty line = 68%

All this happened,since the White man was kicked out by Mugabe.

Population of Zimbabwe 13 million.

Hey Pres Bush dude, Zimbabwe is a parliamentary democracy. Is this the kind of democracy U want to force on the IRAQI's. Or have u no clue dude.

Why don't U spend one trillion dollars on Zimbabwe dude and rebuild that country , without killing 4,000 US troops and maiming 30,000 US troops..


Hey Bush Dude, how does Mugabe differ from Saddam Hussein
GC

41

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta; . CA.....a place in the Sun 02/04/2008 17:52:18
45
Media 1,
cape town
--------------------------

Dude U forgot to include

Galactic Cannibal Mindset = Success =

a Horizon outside the circle of particle matter.
----------------------------
U baddest boy on whole planet earth, for not include Galactic Cannibal.

U gobble down chill pill very soon, or U ride the great steel sword. Then U split in two, one half goes to Hu Jintao his birthday present .
The other half go to the Pope in Vat. City for canonization.

GC
42

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 02/04/2008 17:56:34
Hello Pomona Man,

I hate to burst your bubble on the Oil Reserves issue, but you're being taken in by the Eco-Fascist diatribes and their false numbers.

'50%' of all the world's oil deposits gone? Sorry, but that is neither logical nor scientifically supportable. We simply do NOT know what is under the Ocean's Floors and we've only 'mapped' about 1%-3% of the Floor of the Oceans, and most of that is in Coastal Shelf Waters.

Mind you, that 1%-3% is JUST the surface of the Oceans' Floors, NOT what is UNDER the surface.

Arctic waters are looking so good for oil, gold, diamond, natural gas, etc., that Russia, Canada, Greenland, Iceland, and the USA, are ALL engaged in political fights, as to who owns what, how far out they own it, and when/how they can get it.

Concerning the existing Oil Fields, we have ESTIMATES of how much oil is there, and how much we can get out! Prior to CO2 Injection Technology, up to a THIRD of oil in wells were NOT retrievable. Now that we have CO2 Injection Tech, we can GET that oil out and use it!

So at a minimum, using the Eco-Fascists 'logic' and mathematics, we now have 33% MORE oil than we had before, in ALL oil fields across the globe (in reality, we still have the same amount of oil we had before the new CO2 tech, but NOW we can get almost ALL of it out of the ground to use.

'We fear the US intent towards Iran'? What lunacy is this please? Last time I checked, Iran was the one stating that as a National Goal, it intends to 'wipe Israel off the face of the Earth', to 'destroy the West', and according to the IAEA, is STILL producing and ENRICHING uranium-the ONLY purpose of that process is to MAKE NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

Tell me, when did Bush, Blair, Brown, or Sarkozy, publicly state that they intend to use nuclear weapons to wipe Iran off the map?
Answer: never.
Iran on the other hand, has REPEATEDLY stated publicly that it WILL destroy Israel, it's just the TIMING which is uncertain.

Further, of late, the only voi
43

walter,

02/04/2008 18:02:33
Mugabe used anti British rhetoric to gain power, he used anti British rhetoric to drive out the whites, he used anti British rhetoric in his bids to retain power including this election.
Brown snubbed the EU because they invited Mugabe to speak.
Salmond who is also anti British writes to Mugabe for support.
Yet the nats have the audacity to come on here and suggest that the British government and PM would give him sanctuary.
There is more chance of Salmond offering Mugabe a safe haven and then trying to use it as another excuse to attack the UK government when they prevented him from doing so.
44

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 02/04/2008 18:06:24
Hello Pomona Man CONT,


Further, of late, the only voice in the 'West' threatening Nuclear Destruction of another country(ies) is Vladimir Putin: he stated quite clearly that if the Defensive Missile System is installed by the Poles and the Czechs, Russia would TARGET both EU member states with Nuclear Destruction.

The evidence is overwhelming in this regard. I would also remind you that not only the USA said Saddam STILL had WMD's prior to the invasion, Russia, France, PRC, Great Britain, and the United Nations, ALL maintained that Iraq still had the WMD's they had SEEN at the end of Gulf War I.

Approximately 2 months prior to the onset of hostilities, Saddam told his generals that they would NOT have the WMD's to use against the Coalition Forces (this from some of the generals who were at that meeting). TWO MONTHS before the war began and his own General Staff did NOT know they WMD's were gone!

So if you're gonna fault the USA and Great Britain for not knowing they were gone, blame Saddam, not the Americans and Brits. You could blame France and Russia though, as BOTH had MULTI-BILLION Euro oil contracts with Saddam, for their support in the UN (stopping any further Resolutions against Iraq).

Reality and facts are most often 180 degrees opposite the writings, rantings, and website hoopla of any fanatic positions (regardless of whether they're Far Right or Far Left).

Cheers from the Rockies

So how about you get rid of the anti-US hatred and start looking at what is being said and by whom it is being said.

Cheers from the Rockies
45

voltaire's janny,

02/04/2008 18:21:43
#48

It matters not what the oil reserves are. The demand from India and China will grow faster than known reserves can be exploited.

This means increased cost NO MATTER WHAT. In turn this will maybe slow demand through enforced trends to conservation, alternatives or greater efficiency.

You are dead wrong about where the oil is my friend. The continental shelves are where sedimentary rocks that bear oil are to be found. The ocean floor is exposed mantle which is recently (sic) created igneous rock. There is no oil in the Atlantic because this new rock has not had time for much sediment to accumulate never mind a source of dead stuff (plants or beasts) to be squished. Indeed this process is still going on and pushing Americas and Europe/Africa further apart.
The Pacific & Indian oceans too are mantle not crust. Don't look there either.

So do not play the percentage game based on exploration so far. It misleads and as I point out above is not relevant for the present demand crisis.

The pricier oil gets the more viable become alternatives and the insidious likliehood is that includes foodstuffs.

The 1st world has a duty not to create a global equivalent of the potato famine in Ireland where cash crops for export took precedence over feeding people.

If you think this scaremongering or liberal namby pamby bleating, consider the doubling of corn prices already seen in Mexico where the US is buying up maize.

Now consider a billion or two hungry foreigners at our borders with an intent to eat.

46

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 02/04/2008 20:30:49
Hello Voltaire,

Firstly, you really need to study paleontology, not just geology (and I must point out that some of what you stated is contradictory, ie, the dating of the Atlantic Ocean floor with the geologic/paleontologic record), to understand where more oil deposits are to be found.

Secondly, you don't bother to address the political fact of the Arctic Rush by the nations I mentioned!!! Were there not the oil and other mineral deposits in the /Arctic, there would be no Rush and further, there would be no oil in the far North of Alaska.

Thirdly, I must point out to you that it has been, for the last 4 DECADES, the Eco-Fascists which have been screaming for 'alternative' fuels to be produced and exploited, one of the foremost being Ethanol.

I can't count the times that I've read and listened to Eco-Fascists lamenting the fact that the USA was not following Brazil's lead, in the production of Ethanol for auto use! The E-F's constantly berated the Big 3 Auto manufacturers for not producing Ethanol burning 'Multi-Fuel' burning vehicles.

Well........gues what? NOW Detroit is producing those vehicles, the US government has instituted BILLIONS of dollars in tax incentives for corn production to produce Ethanol for auto use, and what do we NOW here from the same Eco-Fascists (you may or may not be one such, I do not know)?

We're 'hurting people' by shifting corn produce from human food usage to human transportation usage.

People like me have been saying that for YEARS!! We understood that there is a LIMITED CORN SUPPLY and that if you took corn AWAY from the human food pipeline and shifted it to fuel production, FOOD PRICES would go UP and UP!!!!

But nobody wanted to listen to us, we were just a bunch of 'anti-conservation/anti-environmental/anti-clean energy' bigots/luddites! Then of course, we were talkiing about the FACT that it would probably take MORE ENERGY to produce a gallon of ethanol, than the gallon of ethanol produced, which would hav
47

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 02/04/2008 20:41:41
Hello Voltaire, CONT

But nobody wanted to listen to us, we were just a bunch of 'anti-conservation/anti-environmental/anti-clean energy' bigots/luddites! Then of course, we were talkiing about the FACT that it would probably take MORE ENERGY to produce a gallon of ethanol, than the gallon of ethanol produced, which would have the NEGATIVE EFFECT of WASTING energy rather than conserving it!!!

When in the world will the E-F's STOP 'feeling' something is right and start actually LOOKING SCIENTIFICALLY at issues? Same thing goes for GW (Global Warming): the verifiable science does NOT support Human Causation for GW and in fact, the latest numbers from NOAA state that median Ocean Temps are NOT above average.

The Ice Shelves of both Greenland and the Antarctic are growing and receding at a Natural Pace, but NO ONE knows why the cycle is actuated or how it is actuated.

Once again, the E-F's (such as Al Gore, who has admitted to LYING about GW issues/numbers in both his book and film) are acting like a bunch of brown shirts, and attempting to cudgel anyone offering a different opinion or raising legitimate issues.

How about some sane, honest, and logical, debate about all of this, rather than refusing to debate the issues, refusing to discuss the numbers, and to understand that the issue of GW and its constituent subjects is NOT a foregone conclusion and MUST be discussed openly, honestly, logically, and scientifically, rather than just emotively and defensively.

Famines which WILL occur, are to be laid as much at the door of the E-F's as anyone: both governments and corporations have done what the 'Environmentalists' have been demanding they do for 40 years; despite voices like mine and others even more in the know, that such moves would cause major problems for millions of people.

The E-F's refused to listen and now it's time to begin to pay the piper: which is what happens when Theorists are allowed to have their way, without any checks and balance
48

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 02/04/2008 20:42:38
Hello Voltaire, CONT

The E-F's refused to listen and now it's time to begin to pay the piper: which is what happens when Theorists are allowed to have their way, without any checks and balances.

People ARE going to go hungry and many will starve, UNLESS we get OFF the Corn Addiction for Ethanol, and use non-Food Crops (Switch Grass comes to mind, or Sugar Beets for sugar production, which is NOT a food staple for most poor people across the globe).

I and others would like to have people in the Environmental Camps finally take time to LISTEN, rather than just react all too viscerally.

Cheers from the Rockies
49

indune1,

Canada 02/04/2008 22:40:55

Are you out on a day pass and hopefully escorted?
50

indune1,

Canada 02/04/2008 22:48:35

20 - Rulesbutnotrulers -

Surprise! You have won a dream vacation to Las Vegas for one week.

You will share a luxury suite with Marilyn and Elvis.

And rest assured what goes down in Vegas, stays in Vegas.

Oh, by the way, you can choose to stay in Vegas permanantly as a condition of this prize-winning entry.

Suggest you grab the chance. Being an imnate in Scottish insane asylum is not much of an alternative.

Please don't forget your meds.
51

indune1,

Canada 02/04/2008 22:50:21
55 meant for 20.
52

indune1,

Canada 02/04/2008 22:50:22
55 meant for 20.
53

McHoot,

Brisbane 02/04/2008 23:42:25
Shoudn't mad old Bobby Mugabe face some kind of court for his multitudinous murderings? his wee genocidal peccadillos? His bloody tyranny? Or, if not, and it's exile, I wonder if Longwood House on St Helena, where Napoleon was sent after he met his Waterloo, might be de appropriate place. It is [picturesque,has a lovely view of the ocean. Oh allright, it appears to have poisoned wallpaper on its walls which allegedly gave the Little Corporal stomach cancer...but wouldn't that be poetic justice for the mad, murdering, evil, old bathplug?
Hey, Dunnie, old mate, how's tricks? Didn't fully understand your attack on 20. Maybe a wee bit subtle for the likes of me. Please explain.
Have a nice day.
54

indune1,

Canada 02/04/2008 23:50:34

How ya doing Digger?

My response to 20 was based on the premise that he/she is living in la-la-la land if he/she believes that there will be no trouble if and when Mugabe faces the inevitable.

People whose power, influence and wealth built up over 30 yrs do not go quietly into the night.

Hence my tongue-in-cheek response.

Hope you are well mate. Cheers, Dunnie.

55

Rods,

03/04/2008 07:46:17
Media#1

Did i mention the word racism?? Read my post properly.

I live in Ghana, left a well paid job in the UK 6mths ago (along with many friends) for a better quality of life and more oppourtunity. And thats what i get, that is MY experience. I was actually responding to Neanderthals post regarding econmic development, so if you have anything to say about that then lets hear it. Just because Ghana is not the richest country in the world doesnt actually mean it is not developing.

56

voltaire's janny,

03/04/2008 09:28:13
Yo neanderthal. Such a long-winded rant is worthy of one of my own; and a reply.

I'll give you my geology was a bit armchair but I did spend 13 years in seisimic survey looking for oil. Back then we all fell about laughing if some dumb client even bothered to look in water deeper than 300m but I know commercial drilling has pushed that one out - but not off-shelf.

However there has been no oil, zip, nada, none and not a lot found by drilling off continental shelves so my remarks about your stats-fiddle still apply. It undermines your case against your nemeses the EFs if you distort the facts.

Also you never addressd my main points, namely that the oil squeeze will happen no matter what we do and unless we reduce profligate consumption (single occupant SUVs in urban areas an egregious example) we will eventually price-in ever more exotic alternatives that will indirectly attack the food supply for the third world and they will have to do something about that.

On global warming - I'm with you there. One thousand years from ~500==>1500 we had climate warm enough for farming on Greenland and neither the polar bear nor man went extinct. Al Gore did lie. This is not a treatise for more pollution however and all energy consumption ends as heat so cleaner fuels are not panacea.

Sane, honest debate IS NOT HELPED BY SHOUTING dude.

By the way I heard a plausible model of global temperature as being entirely coupled with cycles of sun-spot activity. This certainly operates on a scale that could affect global weather, more than the claimed relationship with C02 that is simply not established.

For the "The Weather's All The Fault Of Arrogant Man" hand wringing brigade (TWATFOAM) I would like to point out that a single big volcanic eruption puts more polluants of all kinds including C02 into the air than all of mankind since the start of the industrial revolution.

Mugabe's stil a see you next tuesday, though.
57

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 03/04/2008 18:02:05
Hello again Voltaire,

Firstly, thanks again for a reasoned reply, it's actually enjoyable to debate without invective!
Secondly, I don't use all caps to 'shout', I use them to stress the word (I know, 99% of the time all caps does mean shouting, but for the life of me, I can't figure out how to italicize on Scotsman's boards, hence the all caps).
Thirdly, you and I are pretty much in agreement on all the points, except the depth of oil drilling for finding and extracting oil deposits. I'll do a LOT more research on that, as my body allows (I'm a scum sucking grey bearded Geezer with a bevy of health problems. The spirit is STILL more than willing, but the flesh has that notorious fellow 'Mortis' breathing down its neck.), because it's more than a mere interest: I literally live in the middle of an Oil Patch and Anadarko is currently engaged in shifting from standard pump jack well extraction to CO2 extraction. The pump jacks are disappearing like common sense in a political debate. So I'll do some more digging (pun definately intended). I also wanted to let you know that if I am barking up the wrong tree on this one, it is not knowingly done and most definitely NOT to lie about the issues: we've enough liars in public office and in the media to last 1000 lifetimes.

The Solar Activity is indeed something which I read about and heard as well, from a number of scientists on various programs. Same same for the Volcanic Eruption Data, Vulcanologists (I do love the older term.) have stipulated that just one average eruption spews the equivalent of CO2 into the atmosphere, that ALL the automobiles in the USA produce, during an ENTIRE YEAR!!!!

The problem my dear Voltaire, is that the E-F's will NOT honestly look at the data we've both been talking about, for neither love nor money will they abandon their closely held biases in favor of looking at verifiable empirical evidence, much less reliable projections (ie, Solar influences).

The effect of this intransig
58

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 03/04/2008 18:03:11
Hello Voltaire CONT,

The effect of this intransigence is that TRILLIONS of dollars/euros are planned to be spent on programs, policies, laws, and all that money is proposed to come from HIGHER TAXES. Take a wild guess at WHO is going to end up getting taxed? Yup, you guessed it, US.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, NONE of the proposals by the politicians, spurred on by the E-F's and the media, even have a chance of working, because we really don't know WHY the CO2 levels fluctuate as they do, nor do we understand fully or even predominantly, how those changing levels affect our planet.

All I want is some honest, open, scientific, logical, and full debate, without a Night of the Long Knives ensuing, against those arguing from the position against Human Causation.

Anywho, I'll end this chapter of War and Peace.

Yes indeed Voltaire, 'Verbose' is indeed my middle name: why say in three words what can be said with 12?

Cheers from the Rockies

 

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