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Chaos on way as ANC hands Zuma top job

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Published Date: 19 December 2007
JACOB Zuma, a controversial populist and polygamist with threats of prosecution for fraud and corruption hanging over his head, was last night elected leader of South Africa's ruling African National Congress.
His remarkable victory over the humiliated state president, Thabo Mbeki, paves the way for him to become the country's third post-apartheid head of state at the next general election in early 2009.

But the intervening 15 months are certain to be t
he most tumultuous and precarious in South Africa since Nelson Mandela was sworn in on 10 May 1994.

Mr Zuma won with 2,329 of the votes at the ANC's five-yearly electoral convention to the incumbent Mr Mbeki's 1505. The winner's supporters immediately broke into chants of "Zuma, Zuma, Zuma."

His victory means there are now two competing centres of supremacy in the country, with Mr Mbeki serving out the rest of his term as a lame duck head of state while 65-year-old Mr Zuma controls the ruling party. It is unclear how the two can be reconciled since the mutual hatred is deep. Mr Mbeki is broadly committed to a free market economy while Mr Zuma has relied opportunistically on the support of the communist and trade union wings of the broad ANC alliance to secure his rise to power.

The differences are so stark and toxic that some commentators believe it is entirely possible that the 105-year-old movement will split between factions in the next few months.

A decision must be made within the first two months of 2008 on whether to press charges of racketeering, tax evasion, fraud and corruption against Mr Zuma.

That prospect is the spectre at the Zuma triumphal feast. One way or another, the decision by the National Prosecuting Authority will create prolonged instability. The NPA, known as the Scorpions and based on the US FBI, recently won a series of Supreme Court judgments saying documents seized in raids on premises including Mr Zuma's home could be used as evidence.

The NPA boss, Mokotedi Mpshe, now finds himself between a rock and a hard place. If he begins a prosecution there will be massive resentment and unpredictable reactions from the mass of poor, unemployed and marginalised South Africans who support him because they had grown disillusioned with the aloof, arrogant and autocratic Mr Mbeki, who proved incapable of empathising with ordinary citizens.

If Mr Mpshe's nerve fails and he grants the new ANC leader immunity from prosecution, he will undermine the independence of the legal system enshrined in South Africa's liberal post-apartheid constitution and South Africa will have to live with a president sullied by unresolved allegations of corrupt practices. The danger is that South Africa, long acclaimed as the continent's beacon of hope, will become just another banana republic in which corruption is entrenched. Any hint of interference by Mr Zuma with the due process of the law would make his government a pariah.

Mr Zuma has tried to reassure the world that there would be no sweeping economic policy changes under his leadership.

But the rand has already suffered a mini-collapse, seen as a warning by the international financial community, and South Africans will be looking nervously at what happens to the currency today now that Mr Zuma heads the ruling party.

A collapsing rand would, in the short term, favour tourists who would be able to snap up bargains at South Africa's spectacular game reserves and coastal and golf resorts.

But speculation is bound also to increase about the viability of football's 2010 World Cup, which is scheduled to take place in South Africa. Already, stadia are behind schedule and a period of political turmoil may persuade FIFA, the world football authority, to unwrap its emergency plan to stage the tournament elsewhere, possibly either Germany or Australia.

Mr Mbeki and Mr Zuma's names were the only two put forward in the bruising contest for the top post. There had been widespread speculation that Cyril Ramaphosa, the man Nelson Mandela wanted to succeed him as head of state, would be proposed as a popular compromise between two flawed candidates. But Mr Ramaphosa, who has kept his head down to the disappointment of many, continued to keep it low.



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 18 December 2007 10:13 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Guga II,

Rockall 19/12/2007 02:41:23
And yet another African country heads down the tubes.
2

Travis Lyle,

Durban, South Africa 19/12/2007 06:21:30
Mr Bridgland, I submit that your article contains misrepresentations of the facts on the matter of the Football 2010 World Cup in this regard.
Firstly, the FIFA President, in numerous interviews which should prove easy enough for you to unearth on AP, has stated that FIFA has no 'emergency plan' and is behind South African efforts to host the tournament. Secondly, stadia are on track (also easily verifiable via the FIFA website, among others) despite setbacks of the sme nature as have been a feature of previous World Cups held elsewhere. Or are South Africans to be singled out for making trade union hay while opportunities shine?
While I respect The Scotsman as a title, I cannot countenance inflammatory reporting, which I can only imagine is excused by your distance from the matter at hand.
I, on the other hand, am right here in the impact zone, and can honestly say you should rather check your facts.

Good day.
3

Travis Lyle,

Durban, South Africa 19/12/2007 06:22:06
Mr Bridgland, I submit that your article contains misrepresentations of the facts on the matter of the Football 2010 World Cup in this regard.
Firstly, the FIFA President, in numerous interviews which should prove easy enough for you to unearth on AP, has stated that FIFA has no 'emergency plan' and is behind South African efforts to host the tournament. Secondly, stadia are on track (also easily verifiable via the FIFA website, among others) despite setbacks of the sme nature as have been a feature of previous World Cups held elsewhere. Or are South Africans to be singled out for making trade union hay while opportunities shine?
While I respect The Scotsman as a title, I cannot countenance inflammatory reporting, which I can only imagine is excused by your distance from the matter at hand.
I, on the other hand, am right here in the impact zone, and can honestly say you should rather check your facts.

Good day.
4

True Scot,

Over Here 19/12/2007 06:58:49
Jacob Zuma is South Africa's answer to that light of democracy to the north Robert Mugabe.
The only thing is it will take a couple of years for the above statement to come true, however watch this space.
5

ex katman 2,

x sudan 19/12/2007 07:25:11
No wonder the African continent is in such a mess.
6

Erchie Broon,

19/12/2007 08:02:05
Good article Fred and it opens up a whole can of worms regarding the corrupt Arms Deal.Mbeki as Mandela's Deputy was tasked with sole responsibility for the Arms Deal and he has shut down every attempt to conduct an investigation into it. So what is he hiding and if the NPA goes ahead with charges against Zuma what are the implications for him and many others including Ramaphosa and Sexwale.Truth is they are all corrupt with the latter two making their miilions from the Oil for Food scanadal in Iraq in face of UN sanctions. The ANC elite have many skeletons in the cupboard and charging Zuma may not only trigger charges against many others but also a Tribal War.
As for the World Cup.It is common knowledge that the only reason it went to South Africa was on the back of the promised African vote to re-elect Blatter as Prseident of FIFA in 2007.Well he doesnt need them anymore and despite his constant denials about the out of control crime in South Africa he experienced it first hand a few weeks ago at the official draw.An ex Austrian footballer murdered and the German Team Manager,Oliver Bierhof, and friend robbed of their briefcases and mobiles ( and this with 13000 extra Police moved in to provide security).So how will the ordinary football fan cope with up to 80 murders per day and a woman raped every 7 seconds not to mention all the other cases of armed robbery that are not even worth a mention in the SA Press they are so frequent?
FIFA have done a huge disservice to the game of Football and its supporters by placing this Tournament in what is statistically the most violent Country on the Planet. They should get it to somewhere safe sooner rather than later and the coming unrest in South Africa will provide them with all the reasons necessary to save Blatter's face.
7

Media 1,

cape town 19/12/2007 10:31:03
Prior to 1994 South Africa was one of the safest nations on Earth. The suburbs were clean, the roads were good, the electricity never went out, the water always flowed from the taps, violent crime was something you saw on a movie screen, sanctions inspired innovation invention and growth, school children were safe, the laws on the roads were strict and people adhered to them, ministers were held accountable for their actions, problems were solved and people both black and white were divded by a racist government.
Today:South Africa is the most violent nation on Earth, 52 000 rapes per annum, almost 40 000 murders, the lights are beginning to go off more than once per week, which leads to millions lost in business and chaos on the roads. The rivers and dams are becomming contaminated, the municipalites are incapable of managing the problems, and the budget money is always stolen. The roads are choas, and the metro police who are supposed to manage them are corrupt and inept. There can be a traffic jam consisting of hundreds of cars due to a power outage, and the Metro Police instead of assisting the situation will hand out fines to motorists who edge over a white line without completely coming to a standstill. It has become so bad that local business has had to train pointsmen to alleviate the problems on the roads. The head of the Metro Police is up on drunk driving charges, he rolled his car on the motorway and even had his blood samples stolen from the hospital. He may never be charged(Incidently, he was a former ANC activist who blew up McGoos bar killing many, during apartheid) The Chief of the Sout African Police, Mr Selebi is up on corruption charges, although he probably wont be forced to stand trial. The Chief Whip Tony Yengeni defrauded parliament, got 5 years and was out in 4 months. The Health Minister is an alcoholic who was given a liver transplant before others on the list. She is still drinking, never in parliament and drawing a massive salary.( Inci
8

thechemist,

leven 19/12/2007 12:23:07
Quite surprised to hear people cry about the past apartheid government. Their killings were not made public, a corrupt government set to serve only 25% of the population, stealing lands from black africans and giving them the least amount of education. A state crime gone silent, a crime against the humanity of its black citizens...let us not forget. South Africa past glitters did hide the suffering of the majority of its population.

Yes there is criminality in South Africa, a high degree of criminality, still, it is a transition the country has to confront especially after what apartheid did.

To sing the virtue of the apartheid government is to refute the blood and tears spilled by black and some white Southafricans. Of course why humanize blacks when for 400 years they have been de-humanized?

The treatment many state sponsored and supported white criminals from the truth commission was far too generous and lenient compared to what they did to their fellow black countrymen and countrywomen. Still the dehumanized majority accepted the decision of the truth commission

How many teenagers have already died in London this year?
9

a_voice,

SA 19/12/2007 12:55:11
To Media 1. Your comment "Prior to 1994 South Africa was one of the safest nations on Earth. The suburbs were clean, the roads were good, the electricity never went out, the water always flowed from the taps, violent crime was something you saw on a movie screen, sanctions inspired innovation invention and growth, school children were safe, the laws on the roads were strict and people adhered to them, ministers were held accountable for their actions, problems were solved and people both black and white were divded by a racist government."

Whilst i in no way support the new Zumacracy, i am concerned by the level of ignorance displayed by your comment. I as a black person never experienced that apparently utopian South Africa you speak of, before 1994. Violent crime was something i saw regularly on our streets inflicted by the government you speak so fondly of. School playgrounds were places where schoolkids were constantly persecuted... i could go on but you catch my drift. Criticize the looming Zuma goverment all you want, i'd probably agree with you on most things, but please do not be delusional about our past. what you are describing is a reality of a minute amount of South Africans before 1994.
10

Travis Lyle,

Durban, South Africa 19/12/2007 12:56:35
From Media1 -
'the electricity never went out, the water always flowed from the taps, violent crime was something you saw on a movie screen, sanctions inspired innovation invention and growth, school children were safe, the laws on the roads were strict and people adhered to them, ministers were held accountable for their actions, problems were solved and people both black and white were divded by a racist government.'

Excuse me?

Whatever hallucinatory South Africa of the past you experienced, I was not party to.

Contrary to your delusion:

- the power did go out
- we experienced a major drought
- violent crime was rampant (although unreported as it was 'black' by definition)
- sanctions left us with a lag in development
- school children were murdered by paedophiles like Joey Harhoff and Gert van Rooyen
- drunk driving and speeding was rife
- Ministers were unaccountable (Apartheid?)
- problems were swept under the carpet or eliminated with hot lead
- and people were forcibly separated.

I'm not saying we're OK now, far from it - but don't misrepresent the state of the past. It is disingenuous and entrenches a skewed perspective on matters. Or perhaps things were different in Cape Town?

Sober up.
11

Dorian,

19/12/2007 13:14:37
Unfortunately I think that South Africa could go the way of Zimbabwe. A word to the wise, if you can leave get out while you still can and while the Rand is still worth anything. My parents have decided to leave after nearly 20years living in South Africa because they fear where the country is heading.
12

RAF,

19/12/2007 13:31:40
African countries need to change the way their think and act.
South Africa is actually the biggest disappointment because South Africa had the potential to be the power house of Africa.

Such a beautiful country with great people, but the problem is the government and unfortunately the people have no control or say.
The reality is that crime is on the increase and out of control – just like the government.

It’s just a matter of time before South Africa goes down the same road at Zimbabwe.
What a shame…
13

Lock,

19/12/2007 13:39:15
Everything will turn out OK I am sure.

As long as they all take a shower afterwards to minimise any risk that is.
14

True Scot,

Over Here 19/12/2007 13:39:34
Jacob Zuma, South Africa's answer to the light of democracy to the north that is Robert Mugabe.This statement is true it will only take +/-5 years until South Africa is in the same boat as Zimbabwe, and the lilly white PC brigade is no where to be found
15

Keith Rowley,

Centurion, Gauteng, South Africa 19/12/2007 13:42:01
I have lived in South Africa for twenty years. It is my home, and I am deeply proud of it and the achievement of its people.

The posts I have read so far reflect the content of the article - bigoted, biased, ignorant and racist.

With the flourish of a pen you are prepared to write off and denigrate almost fourteen years of peace and progress, of reconciliation and economic success.

The ANC government inherited a basket case economy drained of resource by a racist white minority government that had less economic sense than a platoon of mules.

It has transformed that same mess into a glowing example of economic growth balanced with the meeting of socio-economic needs of the majority population.

But the majority of the ANC membership has decided it requires a less aloof president - a 'man of the people' if you will. And thus, it has democratically elected Mr. Zuma to its highest position.

Mr. Zuma's character is being questioned for legitimate reasons, but to pre-judge his competence to the extent of predicting national disaster is simply not rational - it is malicious and mischevious.

You took much the same stance when Tito Mboweni, a trade union leader was appointed as governer of the Reserve Bank - Oh My God!!! A Black Trade Unionist!! To your dismay, he's done a great job.

As for the person who complains that SA was once safe, the question begs answering - for who? For the majority populations cordoned off in lawless enclaves and mining hostels? Or merely for the affluent white population?

The accusations of theft are also laughable given the kleptocratic tendencies of the deposed racist regime. And this government doesn't close newspapers when they report government misdemeanours - we actually have a free press.

How many of the people forecasting our doom can stand the idea of South Africa's continuing success, having left the country as soon as black majority rule came about? Our success must haunt you, twisting your vision to wanton
16

Keith Rowley,

Centurion, Gauteng, South Africa 19/12/2007 13:44:32
I have lived in South Africa for twenty years. It is my home, and I am deeply proud of it and the achievement of its people.

The posts I have read so far reflect the content of the article - bigoted, biased, ignorant and racist.

With the flourish of a pen you are prepared to write off and denigrate almost fourteen years of peace and progress, of reconciliation and economic success.

The ANC government inherited a basket case economy drained of resource by a racist white minority government that had less economic sense than a platoon of mules.

It has transformed that same mess into a glowing example of economic growth balanced with the meeting of socio-economic needs of the majority population.

But the majority of the ANC membership has decided it requires a less aloof president - a 'man of the people' if you will. And thus, it has democratically elected Mr. Zuma to its highest position.

Mr. Zuma's character is being questioned for legitimate reasons, but to pre-judge his competence to the extent of predicting national disaster is simply not rational - it is malicious and mischevious.

You took much the same stance when Tito Mboweni, a trade union leader was appointed as governer of the Reserve Bank - Oh My God!!! A Black Trade Unionist!! To your dismay, he's done a great job.

As for the person who complains that SA was once safe, the question begs answering - for who? For the majority populations cordoned off in lawless enclaves and mining hostels? Or merely for the affluent white population?

The accusations of theft are also laughable given the kleptocratic tendencies of the deposed racist regime. And this government doesn't close newspapers when they report government misdemeanours - we actually have a free press.

How many of the people forecasting our doom can stand the idea of South Africa's continuing success, having left the country as soon as black majority rule came about? Our success must haunt you, twisting your vision to wanton
17

Odin,

Scotland 19/12/2007 14:06:35
Africa, the garden of Eden.

Those who had the potential to evolve further into higher life forms began the long migration from Africa about 40,000 years ago.

Eventually we reached the moon instead of just reaching for the next bunch of bananas, clubbing our neighbour over the head and raping his mate for good measure in the process.

South Africa will eventually follow the same fate as Zimbabwe, the whites introduced the blacks to the concept of hospitals, schools, a monied economy and the most important gift from the Pagan European world called Democracy!

All the blacks inovated was necklacing, corruption rape, murder and succeeded in institutionalised violence.
18

oder,

Scotland 19/12/2007 15:19:38
the future of this great country is surely on the road to ruin, these are the same people that look up to Mugabe as a hero,they seem determined to copy him,the most advanced country in Africa on the road to become another Banana state what a great achivement! for Black African rule.
19

Dougie - Edinburgh,

Edinburgh 19/12/2007 15:59:59
#9
That's just not true. There's one genuine African invention, a quite unique contribution to humanity by the name of "jenkem":
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/406067.stm
20

Scientific Method,

Edinburgh 19/12/2007 17:04:34
#11 Dougie Edinburgh

Im afraid the Jenkim story was made up by a BBC reporter about 10 years ago, interestingly though the US papers picked it up again about 3 months ago (their only source being the false BBC story) and kids in the US fooled by it were apparently attempting to get high from turds in a bottle after reading it.
21

,

19/12/2007 17:06:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

Media 1,

cape town 19/12/2007 17:39:44
Scientific Method

I agree that Odin's remarks may be over the top. But there is some truth beneath his crassness. He just failed to dispense it properly.
Whilst black people the world over are more than capable of attaining greatness, the masses are not. Blame it on slavery, but accept that slavery was already a thriving business in Africa long before any white man arrived. (It still is) Blame it on oppression, but accept that tribes like the Zulu's used their power to displace the coy san people long before the white man displaced the Zulu. Prior to the Europeans arriving in Africa, the Africans had every opportunity to circumnavigate the globe and find Europe, but they did'nt, and hence they lost the circumnavigation race.
Almost all African governed nations are in absolute turmoil. Chaos prevails and starvation is rife!White Europe has donated countless billions to assist Africa, but still she toils and sweats.
It took the white man hundreds of years to develop cars, planes, trains, electricity, computers, internet and almost every other form of technology we use on a daily basis from the TV to the tooth pick. That is not to say that white people are better than black people, OFF COURSE THEY ARE NOT, but they have managed to grow societies and cities and wealthy nations that ALL people of ALL colours and creeds can enjoy.
I am not sure how we solve the problem, but I would imagine that Africa needs to sort its own house out. As does most of black America!
There is a stark difference between racism and realism, and I for one agree that this country is in total and utter decline because the majority of black African people who govern her, are not equipped with the necessary skills to keep her afloat. YES, there is many talented and truly fantastic black minds who would do things differently. But they are never allowed a voice. Ultimately they will leave their motherland for a more stable life in a white run nation and who can blame them. The exodus has alr
23

Scientific Method,

Edinburgh 19/12/2007 18:04:17
# Media 1

Im afraid I have to disagree, there was no truth in any of Odin comments, they were the run of the mill false propaganda often printed by US white supremacist groups, I suspect his user name Odin is related to the current White Supremacist trend towards attempting to resurrect the worship of Norse gods as a modern day religion (many of them got sick of trying to defend the "Jesus was a white guy" nonsense.

People with coloured skin discovered astronomy, optics, large scale engineering (They were building complex pyramids in the Sudan while no white man had advanced past a tribal level) many people also forget that the civilisation we refer to as "White European" is not European but Mediterranean, our culture today is nothing more than a continuation of the one forced on us by the Romans, if not for them mainland Europe would probably be at much the same technological level as Africa is now, and even with the help of the Romans it still took us at least another 800 years to cast off our tribal traditions.

The fact that the African content is more susceptible to dramatic climate change, floods and droughts is the primary reason that the many great African civilisations fell and the reason they have not risen again, the fact that colonial rule has done nothing more than attempt to teach 4 generations of Africans that they are not fit to rule themselves (at the same time doing their best to ensure they never were fit by denying decent levels of education) as done nothing to help the situation.

I however agree that Africa needs to sort out its own issues, an attempt to force our western ideals on other nations never helps anyone and 60 years of charity handouts have only destroyed the ability of the traditional farmer in Africa to resort to subsistence level farming in time of famine as such we now have at least 2 generations of African that can no longer farm or hunt and in times of need only know how to report to the nearest red cross station.
24

Media 1,

cape town 19/12/2007 19:02:31
Scientific Methods
You raise some intersting points,and all of them valid.
But as you know, the past is tough enough to remember 10 years ago, let alone thousands of years ago. We base many of our assumptions on recent past, and since the white European has been the technological leader for as long as any of us or our ancestors going back 800 years can remember, it appears that what happened prior to that is forgotten, or deemed as irrelivant.
I believe that black people and white people are as capable as each other, neither is more supreme than the other. But when it comes to societies there is no disguising the failures of black people around the world. Now as you say, there is many contributing factors as to why that is the case, but the biggest factor of all is the African mind set! This thread is about a nation with a history not much different to any other around the world, its just more recent than most. And the fact remains that under white rule she excelled to the point in which her sky line would not be out of place anywhere in Europe. She has European type infrastructure and a modern energy about her. South Africa is a first world nation trapped in the mindset of a third world people, and therein lies the problem. Regardless of the past and the claims to fame by people of colour or by those known as white. The fact remains that black people are miles behind their white counterparts and only they can close that gap. But when as a black person you are forced to endure the neverending tyranny that community leaders, chiefs ,ministers, prime ministers and presidents bring to your doorstep, what chance do you have but to watch whites move further ahead.
It is quite a sad state of afairs.
25

Dougie - Edinburgh,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 09:52:32
12 Scientific Method
You think jenkim was made up by the BBC but you don’t bother to provide any references to refute the BBC story. So we’re expected to believe an anonymous poster to the Scotsman over the BBC? I don’t think so.
26

Dougie - Edinburgh,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 09:59:53
15 Scientific Method

You claim pyramids were being built in the Sudan while Europeans were still in tribal bands. Yet Stonehenge for example was built long before any of the major pyramids. Secondly, the “coloured people” who built the pyramids certainly weren’t Negroid, in fact, the Ancient Egyptians banned black Africans from travelling to the northern parts of their kingdom. In the words of Egyptologist Zahi Hawass "the portrayal of ancient Egyptian civilisation as black has no element of truth to it".

Ancient Egyptian art clearly portrays Egyptians with a brown skin tone and Negroes (usually slaves in Ancient Egyptian art) as black. In fact, the early ruling class were most likely to have had European origin, often having blonde or red hair and fair skin as can be determined from surviving mummies and confirmed by Ancient Egyptian art. A well preserved 3300 BC body in the British Museum has quite clearly red hair and is nicknamed “ginger”. As late as Queen Hetop-Heres II, daughter of Cheops (builder of the great pyramid) an Egyptian ruler is clearly portrayed as having white skin and blonde hair. Of course, as time went on, the ruling class of Ancient Egypt must have intermarried with darker skinned races and later pharaohs are portrayed as having darker (but certainly not black) skin. Even more reliable than forensic tests on mummies for skin and hair pigmentation, skulls are generally intact and skulls from Ancient Egypt tend to be of unambiguously Caucasoid origin rather than Negroid. The idea that Ancient Egypt was a “black” civilisation is frankly laughable.


You claim that African’s problems can be blamed on colonialism and that Europeans deliberately didn’t educate Africans to keep them down! Strange then that colonies such as Singapore and Hong Kong have managed to thrive despite also suffering this colonial oppression! If your theory were correct, we should expect Ethiopia, a country that was under colonial rule for only a few years in total
27

Dougie - Edinburgh,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 10:30:41
(cont)
to be better off than South Africa, the part of Africa to experience colonialism for the longest time. Yet South Africa is the richest country in Sub Saharan Africa and Ethiopia is amongst the poorest. Likewise, Liberia, a country independent since 1822, attributes their backwardness relative to their more advanced Ivory Coast neighbours to the benefits and development French colonialism brought to the Ivory Coast.
28

Odin,

20/12/2007 15:18:25
#13, #15
Scientific Method

You must have been the recipient of an inferior African education!

For example, Athens is the birthplace of Democracy any idiot educated to Primary school level outside of Africa knows that!

The Ancient Greeks laid the foundations of all scientific research and scientific enquiry. Hipocrates, Galen, Socrates Pericles (Father of Democracy) were not Somalian, Black African or Asian.

Erestostenes also measured the circumference of the earth in circa 300 B.C. Another naughty white guy of antiquity.

They were also all from Pagan Europe!!!!!

It was the adoption of the worship of the intolerant Asian God on the cross that brought the dark ages to europe. It started with the murder of Hypatia in circa 425 A.D.

She was the last librarian of Alexandria and her killers were the Christian followers of Bishop Cyrill of Alexandria (Later to be proclaimed Saint Cyrill)

Yes, I worship the ancient European Gods, Pagan Europe was tolerant of all Gods Rome attested to that, the followers of the intolerant Asian God on the cross changed came along and Peter and Paul's Asian intolerance came into conflict with Rome's "liberalism" and religous tolerance when they proclaimed that only their god was valid.

Last thought, you can be thankful to all those white people you hate so very much for your very life.

I am sure that you have needed or will at some point in the future need medical help to survive at some when that happens think of the following naughty white guys: Robert Koch, Lister, Syms, Dr Snow, William Harvey, Madam Curie, Pasteur, Edward Jenner, Simpson and countles other hated white people.

What have Black Africans done?????



You obviously have a rabid hatred of people that have a white skin!

You also indulge in pure fantasy when you attempt to attribute contributions to humanity's progress and advancement by Black Africans!
29

mike - across the pond,

"scientific method" 20/12/2007 16:50:55
I'm with odin on this one...

you live in an area that does not require things like... heating... agriculture... seasonal planning for sustinance... and surprise, surprise surprise...

your political and technological knowledge base tops out somewhere around the stone age... (look at the americas... australia... they barely attained copper age technologies... (and I only say that because they were working gold in the americas) and bronze never came to be)

humanity needs adversity to achieve technological breakthrus... these areas while not "easy" environments are easily dominable via stone age technologies...

more advanced technologies foster political stability... (if my technology is superior to yours, you are going to leave me alone... or I am going to conquer you... (depending on my political mindset)) and in the end, technology will lead to democracy... as we all get to speak our minds...

and political instability leads to technological collapse... which is what we are witnessing in Africa, the balkans, etc...

and please note that nowhere did I say one "race" is better than another.... technological advancements are a product of the environment... as is political stability... not a product of the shade of your skin...
30

Odin,

20/12/2007 20:54:19
#31

Mike-Across The Pond

You have obvoiusly figured it out.

Al Ghazari the Muslim scholar in the 12th centuary doomed the Islamic world to eventual techological inferiority. He had at his fingertips the ancient learning of the Greeks and made significent progress in matters scientific - then he lost it.

He concluded that the cloth held over the flame of the candle does not burn because of the heat of the flame of the candle but because Alah wilss it to burn.

The European nations in the intervening centuries began to regain their tradition of free enquiry and experimentation resulting in a few centuries later with the production of new ship designs and techniques for naval warfare. The good people of Venice began preparations for the battle of Lepinto.

The European forces broke the back of the Muslim fleet that was stuck in the Galley stage of development. This was only a few centuries from Al-Ghazari's time who felt that Alah could not be bound by the laws of conclusion: Physics - physics bad.

Well, we Europeans did not agree, the old European Pagan ideals of freedom of thought and enquiry taking precedence over restrictive, intolerant religious restraints.

Eventually the Muslims were forced to retreat to their deserts and camels and were contented to remain there and practice their barbaric religion on themselves until the Jews went there to disturb them.

 

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