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'If the Scottish Parliament continues in existence, it means dismantling the UK'

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Published Date: 09 May 2008
WENDY Alexander was 'profoundly unwise' to call for a referendum without the support of the Labour Party hierarchy, says Tam Dalyell
THE seeds were sown in 1970. In the unexpected defeat of the Labour government, a young Donald Dewar, later Wendy Alexander's patron and mentor, lost the seat in South Aberdeen, where he had done so well to beat the popular Conservative, Priscilla,
Lady Tweedsmuir.

The SNP had been contained. Labour had regained Hamilton, so spectacularly won for the SNP by Winnie Ewing in 1967.

But Mr Dewar, unable to find a seat for another seven years, became the focus of a group within the party who sought a solution to their understandable discontent, and Scotland's industrial problems, by setting up a Scottish Assembly. They were hugely assisted by the panic created in the Labour Party by Margo MacDonald's victory in Glasgow Govan at a famous by-election.

But the devolutionists made one false assumption – that if they got their assembly, it would be dominated by Labour forever. Predictably, and predicted by me and the Labour "Vote No" campaign in the 1978-79 referendum – and as foreseen by Eric Mackay, a great, shrewd, fair, and vehemently pro-assembly editor of The Scotsman – this would simply not be the case.

Sooner or later, a Labour administration in Edinburgh would fall out of favour. Confronted with this possibility, there was a disbelieving shrug of the shoulders, and the observation that the Tories (who had had a majority of seats and a majority of the popular vote in Scotland in 1951) would have their turn.

What few in the Labour Party forecast was that the disenchantment with Labour would turn people in the direction of the Nationalists rather than the Tories. It is conceivable that a devolution settlement would have worked if all parties had shown an astonishing degree of goodwill and had universally been prepared to accept that the Union was of paramount importance and superseded all other interests and considerations.

But this was far from the case. There was a party whose raison d'être was focused on dismantling the United Kingdom and challenging the Union. As soon as they became the likely alternative to an unpopular government, the seeds of the present problems of the Labour Party sprouted into healthy plants.

One crucial development which has gone almost unnoticed was, from the unionist point of view, the crazy actions of Margaret Thatcher, and her secretary of state, Ian Lang, aided by Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, then under-secretary of state at the Scottish Office, in killing off Lothian region, Strathclyde and the other increasingly successful big local-government units. Looking at Labour's present troubles, I identify the undermining of local government as a major cause of electoral adversity.

No-one can be surprised at the fandangle into which the occupant of Downing Street and the Labour leader in Scotland have become immersed. Their interests and political constituencies are fundamentally different.

Gordon Brown must take account of the feeling encapsulated by the vox-pop man from Southampton who told the Today programme at the beginning of the week: "Brown! We don't want a Scotchman as Prime Minister."

Wendy Alexander has to consider the situation if Mr Salmond becomes any more popular – people vote in referendums not necessarily on what purports to be the issue, however weighty it may be for the constitution, but on whether you like people as they appear on television.

I think that Ms Alexander may be right to call for a referendum, but profoundly unwise not to clear it with her colleagues in the Labour Party first – or, as we are led to believe, with her own brother, Douglas Alexander, the International Development Secretary.

On Tuesday, The Scotsman published a letter from me arguing for a fourth question, in addition to independence, additional powers or the status quo.

My phone has been choked with support for asking: "Do you wish the Scottish Parliament to continue in being?"

I am one of the few MPs or ex-MPs who have not criticised MSPs. But I believe people should be aware that if the Scottish Parliament now continues in existence, it does mean, sooner rather than later, the dismantling of the British state.

All I ask is people don't sleepwalk into something that actually they don't want.

• Tam Dalyell is a former Labour MP.





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 09 May 2008 8:21 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish Labour Party
 
1

Angus Ogg,

08/05/2008 23:13:40

I think the only way Gordon Brown can survive as far as his political legacy in Scotland is concerned is to seize the thistle.

If Gordon Brown were to take leadership and initiative and propose bringing forward UK legislation for a vote on:-

1. Status Quo.
2. Federalism - The United States of Britain.
3. Full Independence.

I think the majority of voters would go for option "2".

In a heartbeat Gordon would cure many of his ills.

But then again McAvities Cat is stuck in a Downing Street bunker.
2

indune1,

Canada 09/05/2008 00:09:41
1- Wee Angus - The United Dominions of Britain.
3

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 01:19:33
"All I ask is people don't sleepwalk into something that actually they don't want."

A very valid comment, however Alex Salmond has been talking a hell of a lot of sense recently (FMQs yesterday) and focussing on the issues that matter to the man in the street. For instance, the price of road fuel to mention but one thing.

Anyone who provides a potential antidote to the 11 years of labour madness certainly gets my support at the moment.

Don't get me wrong. I do not think the SNP are perfect, and would probably vote against independance when the time comes. However, labour have caused so much damage to the whole of the UK that we badly need someone to do something about it before it is too late. Alex Salmond seems to be on the right track so lets support him and let him do his best to redress the balance---at least for the next couple of years or so until we get a proper government in Westminster.
4

,

09/05/2008 01:49:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

A Reasonable Voice,

09/05/2008 02:13:33
People all over the world are paying closer attention to Scotland now that the SNP are in power. Ex-pat Scots in America and Scottish Americans that I know are following very closely. Some are for all out independence, but many (especially Scottish Americans also of English ancestry) are hoping for a federal solution to the U.K. I tend to agree with this latter group. There is no reason to break up the Union, but certainly reason to reform it.

Bring on full U.K. federalism, and let's finally see that English parliament!
6

indune1,

Canada 09/05/2008 02:38:56

6 - And don't forget we ex-pats in Canada who. with all due respect, are more attuned to the political system and structure of the UK since we are modelled on it.

7

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 09/05/2008 03:49:37
Its good to see the even old labour dinosaurs like Tom Dalyell are now recognizing the inevitibility of Scottish Independence.
8

democracy,

Scottish Borders 09/05/2008 04:01:45
If Tam Dalyell is correct, then it IS the end of the UK as we knew it. GOOD!!! because there is no way the Scottish people will abandon their Holyrood parliament to revert back to being totally dominated by Westminster and totally stripped of all our revenues
for eternity,and would prove to be one of the most retrograde steps EVER by any country in the world in the history of the planet!!!!
9

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 09/05/2008 04:11:28
Hello Scottish Borders,

I see, you don't want Westminster to 'totally dominate' you, but you've no problem with the EUP and unelected EU bureaucrats doing the dictating and dominating.

How very enlightened of you.

Cheers from the Rockies
10

Copper,

Falkirk 09/05/2008 04:25:57
Tam from Linlithgow should have seen by now that the the boarded up shops are the result of Liebor Coonselors being given Holiday Homes in Spain for the planning approval of the Trading Estate
He was in power when Judith Hart wanted a firm to move to Carlisle

Perhaps the main problem is His Liebor Porty is AND HAS BEEN FOR MANY YEARS ... CORRUPT FROM TOP TO BOTTOM
11

Saltire,

China 09/05/2008 04:39:04
Neanderthal
Maybe it is better to be part of the EU with a seat at the table and a very small voice than a part of a part of the EU without any voice at all.
Independence will not solve all Scotland's problems but will let Scotland better target any resources at the particularly Scottish problems which cannot be tackled by Westminster where the needs of the UK as a hole take precedence.
12

Saltire,

China 09/05/2008 04:40:29
"Hole" oooops I meant to write whole - or did I? :-)
13

Richardinho,

09/05/2008 07:06:21
Tam Dalyell, the great socialist hero speaking from his castle last night..
14

mike3,

midlands 09/05/2008 08:00:16
If something has worked reasonably well for hundreds of years then there can't be much wrong with it. Certainly nothing that needs a step change... unless of course the step change was intended to solve a rather different problem. Shortage of brain cells, bossy boots and unintended consequences?
15

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 09/05/2008 08:01:24
#10 Neanderthal75

"but you've no problem with the EUP and unelected EU bureaucrats doing the dictating and dominating."

I'm interested in this dictating and dominating. Perhaps I'm missing something. As far as I know, the EU doesn't decide how much tax I pay, which days my rubbish is collected, when the local school will be repaired, whether Donald Trump can build his golf course, whether my broadband service will ever improve, which countries we invade, where the local police erect their speed cameras, the medicines that doctors prescribe, or the route of the new Edinburgh tram.

Please elaborate!
16

Scotland to prosper...,

09/05/2008 08:01:33
I'm afraid that for all Tam Dalyell's wisdom, he has not picked u on one important factor.

Alex Salmond continues to gain in popularity not through constantly harping on about Independence, but by implementing popular policies and actually listening to the people.

I would have imagined Mr Dalyell to be more in tune with the SNP's position than what Labout have become.

It has always astonished me that as a socialist, Mr Dalyell is against a nation of people being allowed equal global rights.
17

lachlan,

09/05/2008 08:07:22
"All I ask is people don't sleepwalk into something that actually they don't want."
i notice similar comments on this subject from various sourses. it as if the scottish people are not able to make descision themselves.was the scottish people given all the facts when they lost their independence all those years ago?maybe people want a change and possibly wish to be an indepenent member of a larger more loose union.wonder what that could be?
18

gus1940,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 08:22:24
Good.

For once the dreaded quote marks although enclosing a personal opinion put forward as news actually tell the truth.
19

Richardinho,

09/05/2008 08:28:41
#21 It amazes me that someone with such wishy washy opinions could be so aggressive in promoting them.

I take it you're a liberal?
20

Jimmy the Pie,

09/05/2008 08:29:01
This article is typical Labour.

WE KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR YOU. DO AS WE TELL YOU.


Aye right!!
21

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 09/05/2008 08:30:58
#17 mike3 "Certainly nothing that needs a step change"

Why do you think Scottish independence constitutes a step change? While I know that most nationalists, whether Scottish or British, see Scottish independence as a massive, emotion-driven event, some of us see it as something more pragmatic. Most day-to-day parts of government have been administered separately in Scotland throughout the period of union. Adding the remaining powers and a political dimension is unlikely to affect people's lives in any dramatic way, unless the colour of your passport is central to your existence.

But as someone from the Midlands, do you not think it would be good for Britain as a whole to have some kind of counterpoint to the London-centric economic and political structure we have now?
22

Richardinho,

09/05/2008 08:34:42
I've always thought that socialism and feudalism were much closer together than was commonly supposed.
As Tam Dalyell sits back in his socialist retirement castle worrying that Scots might vote for independence by mistake, it makes me think this even more!
23

bluehead,

edinburgh 09/05/2008 08:45:01
this country has been in a state of dismmantleship since the day they joined the EU
who would have ever thought that the people of this country
would be told what they could and what they couldn't do by a bunch of foreigners,it would be much better to be seperate from england,at least we might still be able to salvage what is left of Scotland
let us hope that the labour goverment is never in power again they have destroyed almost everything
24

bluehead,

edinburgh 09/05/2008 08:47:21
as above
25

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 08:51:08
Another old Etonian telling us what to think.
26

Ken S.,

Reading 09/05/2008 09:02:54
#1 Angus Ogg,

"..a vote on:-
1. Status Quo.
2. Federalism - The United States of Britain.
3. Full Independence."

Succinctly summed up.

However, in reality your list consists of only two options. This is because there is growing strength of feeling for an English Parliament to correct the democratic deficit south of the border that has been created by devolution. In endeavouring to resolve a previous deficiency, it has created a new and greater one, up with which we will not put !

A choice of status quo would therefore be a preliminary for federation.

How about an option for reinstatement of the Union, i.e. abolition of devolution in its current form ?
If the answer is that no-one in Scotland would vote for abolition of Holyrood, then that strengthens the point that your only alternatives are federation or independence.

I'm sure you would be successful in either of these outcomes.
27

Venachar,

09/05/2008 09:03:51
Slightly different approach in this epistle than his previous letter. Now we are saying it's all Donald Dewars fault and Maggies fault.

I would prefer if Tam Dalyell was more annoyed with the remark " Brown we don't want a Scotchman as Prime Minister". This is a racist remark. If I said I don't want a P*ki as my MP I would most likely be in trouble.
Whether we like Gordon Brown or not he is a duly elected member of the British Parliament and the leader of his party. It says more about the english electorate than anything.
If Scots and Scotland are so bad why are there so many southerners moving to Scotland?

PS I was censored for using the word P*ki - See what I mean.
28

kirk 1,

09/05/2008 09:05:23
I don't think we're sleepwalking, more like awakening from the disasterous misadministration of our country by the people we foolishly trusted to look after us.
29

Nikostratos,

09/05/2008 09:07:29
#31

Perhaps we should add option 4 which is a U.K wide referendum on scottish indepenence which seems to be gaining support.
30

Scotish Exile,

09/05/2008 09:24:36
'If the Scottish Parliament continues in existence, it means dismantling the UK'.....is that not the obvious assumption if the Scottish Parliament actually works?
31

acanthus,

09/05/2008 09:34:53
I really do detest this man, he has had nothing whatsoever to contribute to Scottish life and should be regarded as the very worst kind of Scot.

His aricle above tells us what exactly. Well it tells me that he is nothing other than a disgusting relic that should be stuffed and stood in a museum next to the dinosaurs.

Incidentally Tam is a decendent (i believe) of either James Loch or Patrick Sellars (not sure which) who cleared the Highlands!
32

dido-bendigo,

Scotland 09/05/2008 09:43:47
Wise words from a true patriot who has deep concern for the well-being of Scotland and the Scottish people.

If only our Parliament consisted of MSPs of the calibre of Tam Dalyell, we would have a gathering of people who would not have to resort to insult, sneers and petty point scoring to hide their lack of managerial skills or the ability to converse with suitable gravity. Salmond and Alexander seem to think attack is the best form of defence? Well, it certainly saves having to come up with the answer to serious questions! True leadership? What a bunch of daisies! A bit like something I read earlier, really!
33

Guga II,

Rockall 09/05/2008 09:44:23
I thought Tam Dalyell was dead. He might as well be as his ideas, like his socialism, died a very long time ago.

With a bit of luck, the Scottish parliamnt will mean an end of the YUK. This archaic union belongs in the past, just like Dalyell.
34

acanthus,

09/05/2008 09:48:56
Wise words where exactly?

Perhaps you could point me to even one line in the above article that has anything of importance to say whatsoever?

'deep concern for the well-being of Scotland'???

His only concern was to keep Scotland in the Union at all costs and that has never been in the true interest of Scotland.

It seems some people still are in a dream and you are one of them!
35

Steve,

Bo'ness 09/05/2008 09:50:52
I see Tam regularly, shuffling around Tescos in his tracksuit bottoms and slippers, examining the groceries over his specs.

A sad shell of a once respected politician.
36

Melly,

Sussex 09/05/2008 09:51:12
Tam you`ve been sleepwalking ever since you joined the liebour party and gave up you Lordship. We are all wide awake and know where we are heading - towards 2010 and onwards.
37

Douglas Eckhart,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 09:53:29
I cannot beleive that Tam 'fae the bins' is actually still arguing for the abolition of the scottish parliament - what centrury is this guy living in? Indeed, what planet is he actually living in? Certainly not the same planet as the rest of us.

Amazingly, he is still stuck in the 1998 yes/no devolution debate - wake up, the rest of us have moved on!

Dear oh dear..

38

acanthus,

09/05/2008 09:53:51
Staggeringly arrogant to assume that Scots cannot make up their own mind.

Unlike the Labour vote for 30 years of course who have been given all the facts by Labour..his beloved party...what a joke!

39

Frank . G .,

NSW Australia 09/05/2008 09:54:06

My wife and I left Scotland in 1963 for Australia.

Scotland has never left my wife and I.

We are Scottish , not British or Australian.

Our children and our grandchildren are Australian.

Wish to God we could vote for Scotland's Independence.

Rolf Harris still can vote in Australian Political Elections and he's been living in engerland for over 200 years.

Ach well! no' tae worry, ye'll no' be needin' oor votes ,
Scotland's great future's gon' back tae oor great past at last,

Take Care (Ma ain folk!) God Bless you a', an' the SNP.

"Jimmy the Pie, you an' yer likes are Scottish legends ,
thank you one an' all.

"Here's tae us an' wha's like us!"

(Bob 10 Helensburgh.(pronounced Helensburgh in Oz)

"Awa' 'n bile yer heid son!'








40

European Scot,

09/05/2008 09:56:29
34 Nikostratos

"Perhaps we should add option 4 which is a U.K wide referendum on scottish indepenence which seems to be gaining support."

Like the population of the USSR deciding on the Independence of Latvia ?
Scottish Independence is a subject for Scotland only.
Let's try and keep closer to reality !
41

capy,

leith sur le mer 09/05/2008 10:31:25
while i agree that all governments run there course, and labour would one day loose an election north of the border i bet they did not think it would be quite so soon.another point worth thinking about is the effect that the untimely death of john smith had on the uk political scene. he would have won the election and the new labour experiment may have been strangled at birth. then people like me may still be labour party members. i left and now vote snp as do many like me.i also think that the acceleration towards independence will partly be driven by attitudes south of the border,some of them as other posters have pointed out none to pleasant.devolution was supposed to be the "settled will of the scottish people",but the independence jeannie is well and truly out the bottle and the cork will not go back in. interesting times indeed
42

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 10:34:20
Frank G. (45): "My wife and I left Scotland in 1963 for Australia. Scotland has never left my wife and I.
We are Scottish , not British or Australian."

If you have been in Australia for 45 years, then, in my view, it is disrespectful to Australia for you to view yourselves as anything but Australians.
43

New Town Resident,

09/05/2008 10:35:09
18 says

"Perhaps I'm missing something. As far as I know, the EU doesn't decide how much tax I pay, which days my rubbish is collected, when the local school will be repaired, whether Donald Trump can build his golf course, whether my broadband service will ever improve, which countries we invade, where the local police erect their speed cameras, the medicines that doctors prescribe, or the route of the new Edinburgh tram."

Yes you are missing a lot.

Tax. Contributions to EU budget costs every Scot 2p/£ income tax. VAT levels are determined at EU level, and also prevent us from having local sales tax.

Rubbish. Cuts in collections to enforce recyling is a direct result of EU landfill directive.

Trams. Uk government policy as part of EU carbon targets

Wars. UK forces are in Kosovo as part of an EU force
44

Ken S.,

Reading 09/05/2008 10:36:19
#34 Nikostratos,

"Perhaps we should add option 4 which is a U.K wide referendum on scottish independence which seems to be gaining support."

Can't challenge the principle; potential divorce affects us all. However, for practical reasons it would be better left as a Scotland vote at this stage as, despite all the enjoyable histrionics on this site, the fact remains that a higher proportion of Scottish population have given measured thought to the position, one way or the other, than is the case with the population of England. I'll readily confess that there is a lot of knee-jerk "Oh well, sod-off you scroungers" attitude south of the border, egged on by such as the Daily Mail. If there were a UK wide referendum,this lack of calm objectivity could even result in Scotland etc opting to stay and England voting to ditch all you unruly devolved folk! I'm neither specifically for nor against Scotland's independence. Why I participate here is because it would be sad if the eventual outcome was decided by hotheadedness on either side rather than rationality and to point out that status quo is not an option because it is in itself a forerunner of further separation. If that is what people are after, then no probs. Just don't stumble away from the Union, if you want to revive it, because you think you can have the cherry and the bun whilst leaving England to nibble at a morsel of stale bread. We want cherry & bun too!
45

Boggle fey the Bog,

09/05/2008 10:38:00
30 Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation, not separation 09/05/2008 08:58:41

You keep ratlin' yer cage aboot Federation, but please, Oh please, convince us that federation is far better than being a Sovereign Independent State, with all the rights and responsibilities inculcated there in!

As I have said before Fed your a closet Onionist, out to muddy the waters.

You have still not retracted the keech you spouted yesterday about 'enforced federations', and what is your take on the disintegration of the Belgian Federation?

I await your reasoned, intelligent response....Oh sorry you have already disqualified yourself from 'intelligent debate' as you contend that 'intelligent debate' is impossible when you have already decided what the outcome should be!!!

Your words not mine.

Begone Troll!!!
46

kimba,

09/05/2008 10:39:52
Tam Dalyell is telling you how it is,for all those who still want a British passport in years to come,you had all better stand up and be counted before it's to late!
47

New Town Resident,

09/05/2008 10:44:37
-48. Wrong i think. It is SNP policy to limit participation in the referendum to Scottish residents only. This is to deliberately exclude Scots who live in other parts of the UK, and says it all. Look for the SNP to try for a referendum on the same basis as the Holyrood list so as to also include non Britsih EU citizens who are more likely to support them (they will be after scottsih passports). The SNP definition of a Scot is quite simple - the more likely you are to vote for the SNP, then the more you are a Scot.

I would hope that the Labour party will oppose any referendum which either allows non UK passport holders to vote, or excludes any Scot entitled to Scottish citizenship who lives in the UK.
48

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 10:47:35
Tam Dalyell's long standing opposition to any form of Scottish devolved government is well documented.

Mr. Dalyell's mischievous suggestion for a fourth question to be included in any future Independence Referendum asking IF "the Scottish Parliament should continue in being" is one of the most constitutionally dangerous ever suggested?

IF, such a question was ever included in any
Referendum, and the Scots were perversely convinced for a second time in their history to abolish the Scottish Parliament, it would be disasterous, and only set the hares running again with even more constitutional wrangling!

The only beneficiaries would be the Nationalists with only one inevitable outcome!
49

fiferjohn,

09/05/2008 10:55:19
yes kimba i will stand up and be counted before it's to late.to late for Scotland to lose all her resources being plunder to fund a corrupt and deceitful Westminster that doesnt care about Scotland or her people only what it can take from her.
i will stand up and be counted and bring an end the this unequal union.
50

New Town Resident,

09/05/2008 10:59:59
30 & 55. Don't you need to define what you are talking about? I would argue we already live in a Federal State.

Textbooks divide Government into Judiciary, Legislature and Executive.

Judiciary; Hasn't Scotland always been 100% independent until we put the ECJ over us? More so than any US state at least?

Legislature; What more powers do you think should be devolved to Holyrood to make it Federal? I suppose this is a tax question, but most Federal systems rely on local expenditure taxes which are not allowed by the EU VAT system. Note we gave up the right to declare war to the UN in 1946, so if you think wars are illegal then this is already a matter for the International Court at the Hague?

Executive. 70% of our laws already come from the European Council Executive via Directives, so surely by volume at least we are already Federal in this area?
51

Boggle fey the Bog,

09/05/2008 11:00:28
53 New Town Resident,09/05/2008 10:35:09 & again at 57

Boll-ox!!

VAT levels are decided at Westminster, I've pointed this out to you before, why do you always come on here and talk keech?

Rubbish Collections aye yer talkin rubbish oan that, cuts in collection have been implemented in England to try to reduce the size of the increase in Cooncil Tax doon there, fcuk all to do with landfill or recycling!!!
Although it does make economic and fiscal sense to recycle.

Trams UK gov policy, maybe, but NOT EU policy, Kyoto and carbon reduction commitments brought about by that INTERNATIONAL treaty, do your research!!

Wars UK forces were in Kosovo as part of NATO,NATO handed over the peacekeeping duties to an EU led Coalition, which includes UK servicemen.

If you really want t put War on the agenda, then Afghanistan and the totally Illegal Imperialist action taken by the USA and the UK in Iraq, is a good starting place. I suppose that's OK as it has nowt to do with the EU.

Voting Rights, as any referendum held in Scotland originating from Holyrood is classed as 'Local', then everyone on the Electoral roll for local government elections would be eligible to vote, this would also include any ex-pats that are registered and entitled to vote in local elections, as if you ain't registered you can't vote!!!

from the draft bill ...

"(3) Those entitled to vote in the referendum are the persons who, on the date of the referendum, would be entitled to vote as electors at a local government election in any electoral area in Scotland"

You really are a plonker.

52

New Town Resident,

09/05/2008 11:03:48
59 - please see my post 57. Am i right or not about residents only?
53

,

09/05/2008 11:08:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
54

Teamdroid,

09/05/2008 11:20:24
Dalyell - "Gordon Brown must take account of the feeling encapsulated by the vox-pop man from Southampton who told the Today programme at the beginning of the week: "Brown! We don't want a Scotchman as Prime Minister."

Not just Gordon Brown, but all Unionists like yourself must take account of this feeling, Tam! You simply don't get the fact that the majority component of the UK - England - is hostile to politicians from the other components running the show. Read the commentary sections of papers like the Telegraph: full of references to the "Jock mafia" and so on - even the faintly Scottish tinge to Blair is resented. Recall the ease with which Kinnock was labelled the "Welsh windbag", and consider the effectiveness that epithet had in stalling swing voters in England in 1992. Try to even imagine a son or daughter of Ulster - that most British part of the UK - in Number 10.

These sentiments are not those of an extreme minority, but are very much part of mainstream thinking in England. It's not racism, it's simply about being the elephant in the room who thinks the little elephants now have their own rooms and have no right to dictate his furniture layout.

The point is, Tam, spiritually the Union is dead. Such sentiments would have no place in a happy, successful Union. Time to move on.
55

New Town Resident,

09/05/2008 11:22:06
62.

VAT bands are agreed and set at EU level. Do you disagree? For example one of the exemptions we have kept in the Lisbon deal is to keep zero rates for newspapers and also for childrens clothes? The European Commission website "taxation and the European union" explains how this works.

The EU has set up fines based on recycling and use of landfill rates. Do you disagree? Our rubbish policy is determined by the need to avoid paying these fines. I'm not arguing whether the policy is right or wrong, just pointiong out who is charge?

Kyoto is implemented in the UK via EU directives. right or wrong?

Thanks that you agree Kosovo is now an EU operation. Afghanistan is and always was under UN mandate and so legal - you agree? It is matter of legal dispute whther the Iraq invasion was under UN mandate or not. If it is the view of a future independent Scottish government that it was illegal (i.e. not under a UN mandate) then I look forward to the Hague case being brought. I think we would have some common ground at least in taking pleasure at Mr. Blair being behind bars! However current operations in Iraq are under a new UN mandate post the invasion and so are 100% legal - do you agree?

Thanks for confirming my point that the SNP think foreigners (non British citizens) should vote in the future of Scotland, but that Scots who live in England should not. I would say that is somewhat "keech"

56

kimba,

09/05/2008 11:27:31
60. Pleased to hear it,but there are those in scotland who wish to be part of one of the most powerful nations in the world,if you and your cronies wish to be a little fish in a big pond good luck to ya!
57

Scotsman in Dublin,

09/05/2008 11:28:34
Tam Dalyell? Vichy Tom would have voted for union in 1707 and he and his ilk have been selling Scotland out ever since.
58

Tom R,

09/05/2008 11:30:47
Tam Dalyell should recognise-as he may well do-that when he said that devolution would prove to be "a motorway to independence with no exits", he was totally accurate.

The only issue is how long it will take, and I assume that all he is now seeking to do is to delay what he and I (with delight) regard as the inevitabilty of Scottish independence.
59

kimba,

09/05/2008 11:34:11
67. No we are not hostile to either scots or welsh or even ulstermen "running the show"as you but it,what we are "hostile"to is being second class citizens in our own country, if it's good enough for scotland & wales to have free presciptions etc why not England!
60

kimba,

09/05/2008 11:37:02
71. You may find scottish independence is a long way off yet,hope you are a patient soul!
61

AJ Fife,

09/05/2008 11:47:09
Sleep walking????

I think auld Tam will find the Scottish population have now awakened to the mess he and his type have created in Scotland over the last 50 years!!!

He's a dinosaur who has no place in a modern and vibrant Scotland!
62

fiferjohn,

09/05/2008 11:50:58
kimba Britain stopped being a powerful nation long ago
when Scotland becomes independent it will finish Britain of completely.they will be kick out of the g8 and the security council lose a lot of say in the eu.
scotland does not have a say in the important thing that matter at the moment but we will have more of a say when we are independant.
it is you who are wanting to be a little fish in a big pond because no matter what scotland or her people want the only people or area that will get a say is londaon and the south east.
just ask our fishermen who where sold down the river just to keep the 16 kent fishermen(boats) happy.so go a head keep being a small fish i want to be a meduim sized fish that can have a say.
63

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 09/05/2008 11:57:11
Tam Dalyell is out of step with Scottish public opinion. There are few people in Scotland who want to see an end to the Holyrood parliament and a return to the old model of direct rule from Westminster. We had that; we didn't much like it. The majority of Scots favour an increase of powers to the parliament. There is a significant number in support of independence. It seems to me that, as Ross Finney pointed out on Newsnight, we ought to take time to have that debate and not rush it. If Wendy Alexander thinks it is right to rush to a referendum vote, then perhaps she will publish her plans for Scotland. As soon as possible. Then we'll know what the alternative is.
64

Scotsman in Dublin,

09/05/2008 12:00:19
#72, if you want free prescriptions then vote for it. People like you act as though Scotland gets extra money for this. A goverment gets a budget and then chooses how to spend it, if Scots get free prescriptions or free education it just means that money isnt being spent on something else.
65

AJ Fife,

09/05/2008 12:09:35
AM2#78,

I seem to remember you weren't too worried during the lead up to 3rd May 2007!!!
66

Scotsman in Dublin,

09/05/2008 12:09:50
#78 AM2, polls, polls, lies and damned statistics. A referendum is the only thing that can truly gauge public opinion.
67

Venachar,

09/05/2008 12:18:04
#79
Spot on!

Kimba you are hilarious! If you weren't so dumb you would be funny.
Block Grant - we decide what to spend it on, it's called devolution.
Try voting in some politicians who will do what the majority would prefer.
If most people in England just listen to the rantings of Kelvin McKenzie then it serves them right. They have been asked at least in the north if they wanted some sort of devolution and have rejected it.
Yours is just the politics of envy and the fact that you are a WUM.
68

kimba,

09/05/2008 12:35:40
76. Britain is rated the 4th most powerful nation,but you go your own sweet way,you'll learn the hard way!
69

Geoff,

sa 09/05/2008 12:48:28
1 and 2-Yes gents-the only way forward out of this mess.
67 teamdroid-I disagree with your take entirely. The average Englishmen would have no beef whatsoever with the BRITISH PM coming from any part of the UK.However England has no Parliament so I can understand entirely that resentment is building up against this absurd injustice. Also whilst some English (and Scots dont forget) make racist remarks about each other most british people get on well. Finally Brown is so incompetent,such a disastrous PM that even if he was an Outer Mongolian some might understandably start feeling some resentment toward Outer Mongolia-as illogical as that would be!
70

kimba,

09/05/2008 12:49:19
scotsman in dublin. Should of known better,a scotsman in Ireland,not a cat in hells chance of getting common sense out of you
71

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 12:53:27
Jackie Priest (59): "Do you think second or third generations of Asians in Britain should sever all roots with India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc?"

Generally no. But I do think that they should regard themselves as British, not Indian or Bangladeshi: a man cannot serve two masters and, in general, I disagree with dual citizenship. I would also further discourage the practice of importing large numbers of spouses from, say, Bangladesh or Pakistan: this has dramatically impeded integration.

I suspect your primary problem is that you see this from a Scottish perspective, and immigration is relatively trivial in Scotland. In my home city, London, more than half the school age population (i.e. 18 years or younger) is ethnic minority, and the total ethnic minority population of England now exceeds the population of Scotland. Given those statistics, attitudes change.
72

European Scot,

09/05/2008 12:59:16
78 AM2

"Yet the most recent opinion poll (YouGov/Telegraph on 28 April) found only 19% support for independence and a remarkable 72% support for devolution.

No poll gauging those options has, at any time in the past year, found more than 23% support for independence or below 59% support for devolution."

Some of these polls contained over twenty questions.
Last night you referred to the ICM poll of the Telegraph in 2006 as being a freak. You stated that was because no survey since has even come close to such a figure, and yet you are quite prepared to accept a recent poll of only 19% in support of Independence, which is totally at odds with other recent polls showing figures of 40% and 41 %.
You use the words "no poll gauging these options..."
This is the crux of it. Multiple question polls, and the way those questions are framed and weighted, designed to achieve a certain response, which might give
' freak' results.
Wasn't there also a problem in one of these polls where 40% of the sample questioned, were Labour supporters.
It's not the percentages of the way Polls are answered, that needs examination, it's the way the questions are written, and laid out in these multi option polls, that needs closer scrutiny.
A simple yes or no, is less complicated, nothing is weighted, no one is led along a route designed to elicit certain responses.
Yes or No, straight to the point.
Then we can look at percentages.
73

craigy,

south lanarkshire 09/05/2008 13:10:31
Fairfax at 52.
I've also lived in foreign climes (maybe not for 45 years) but have never and would never consider myself anything other than Scottish. As they say, you can take the boy out of Scotland but you can never take Scotland out of the boy.
Daniel Robber.
Why should people who have chosen to emigrate for a better life but still retain British citizenship not retain their right to vote in UK elections or referanda? Was it not the Tories who enacted the legislation to allow expats to vote in order to help them help win elections in the late eighties and early nineties. Did you have such strong opinions on the subject then then?
74

Scotsman in Dublin,

09/05/2008 13:17:34
#83, AM2, you are a total anorak. You must sit apon a mountain of propoganda. The reality is that a Poll is often a reflection of what the person that it paying for it wants to hear and the sources you quote are hardly unbiased. I remember 1992 General election when all the polls suggested a Labour win - and then we had another 5 years of Tory rule.

Incidentally I did a very quick search on google using the words "independence scotland poll" and here were the results.

Majority in Scotland wants independence, says poll | Politics ... - The Gaurdian

Britain wants UK break up, poll shows - Telegraph

BBC NEWS | Scotland | New poll calls for independence
75

Scotsman in Dublin,

09/05/2008 13:28:03
#86, Kimba, a quick glance at a few of your posts shows that your not exactly a reliable judge of common sense...
76

John S,

09/05/2008 13:31:06
#83 - Using the same format as the SNP is proposing to put in a referendum which is to ask the Scots whether they agree or disagree that the administration should "negotiate a settlement with the government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state".
TNS System Three March 2008
I agree: 41% - I do not agree: 40%
Scottish Daily - Express Jan 2008
I agree: 27% - I do not agree: 57%
TNS System Three Dec 2007
I agree: 40% - I do not agree: 44%
TNS System Three poll Aug 2007
I agree: 35% - I do not agree: 50%

Between Aug 2007 and March 2008 the I agree average is 35.75%, remove the SDE and the I agree average is 38.6%.
77

yockel,

09/05/2008 13:32:41
#84 Kimba; think you will find it is nearer 11th with Turkey having greater military capability and Poland having greater gold reserves.
78

Frank . G .,

NSW Australia 09/05/2008 13:33:52
Fairfax #52 (or Maybe Far Fetched #52)

In 1972 Gough Whitlam’s Labour Party ... (as useless as Gordon Browns) was elected as the government of Australia.

In 1973 Gough Whitlam’s Labour Government ... (as useless as Gordon Brown’s) introduced The Australian Citizen Act 1973 and also multi-culturalism in Australia without consulting the OzChattering classes.

In 1975 Gough Whitlam’s Labour Government ... (as useless as Gordon Brown’s) was the only Prime Minister and Government of Australia ever to be sacked .

In1973 all migrants had to satisfy common criteria for naturalisation as an Australian citizen (preferential treatment for British subjects was ended by the Australian Citizenship Act 1973).

My wife and I were already in Australia for 10 years. We vote in all Australian Elections, we do not have to become Australian Citizens to vote or to love this magic Country.(Wish we could vote in Scotland)

Gough Whitlam’s Australian Citizenship Act 1973 : Rights enjoyed by citizens broadly include entitlement to -

• vote and stand for public office
• serve on juries
• an Australian passport, to Australian consular protection overseas and immunity from deportation
• leave Australia and return at any time without requiring a resident return visa
• register overseas born children as Australian citizens by descent
• seek employment in federal government agencies and the armed forces

Today in Australia there are many people who cannot speak a word of English that hate Australians and their way of life , BUT THEY HAVE A WEE BIT OF PAPER THAT SAY’S , ME AUSTRALIAN!

They would rather die than live like, or respect Australians
79

AJ Fife,

09/05/2008 13:42:00
AM2,

Sorry, I keep forgetting it's 'Team AM2'! An earlier version of yourself was very optimistc about the SNP failing back then. You should keep better tabs on the rubbish you and your colleagues spout!

How is the guru, Arthur Midwinter, by the way?
80

,

09/05/2008 13:44:26
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81

Frank . G .,

Kincumber 09/05/2008 13:45:29
and their way of life. They’re quite happy being “Paper Australians” because of all the lovely freebies and goodies that go along with it .
Don’t talk to me Fairfax of being disrespectful to Australia , I would die for this wonderful Country. The simple truth is my wife and I are Scottish migrants to Australia, extremely grateful guests , no more or no less! Procuring a wee bit of paper that say’s we are Australians Citizens is irrelevant.
In its legal sense Australian citizenship dates from 26 January 1949, when the Nationality and Citizenship Act 1948 came into force and the status of 'Australian citizen’ came into existence. Prior to this, people living in Australia (who were not 'aliens’) were British subjects.
Although Australia became a sovereign nation on 1Â January 1901, the concept of nationhood for the first half of this century was membership of the British Empire and British Commonwealth.
Australian forces in WW1 and WW2 were classified as British under British command and still today Australian Armed Forces have the word ROYAL in front of their names. Scottish, Irish, Welsh and English men who donned the slouch hat and proudly fought in the Australian armed Forces had to take an oath as follows:
“I WILL WELL AND TRULY SERVE OUR SOVEREIGN LORD THE KING IN THE AUSTRALIAN IMPERIAL FORCES SO HELP ME GOD.”
THEY DID NOT HAVE TO BECOME AUSTRALIAN CITIZENS!
In 1963 my Scottish wife and I arrived in Australia the population was less than 7 million, (population of London is over 7 million.) Australian population today is over 21 million and growing.
82

Frank . G .,

Kincumber 09/05/2008 13:47:30
P.s : End of story.
Looking forward to the next Bendy Wendy Hungry Caterpillar Adventure! “Bring It On!”
83

,

09/05/2008 13:57:48
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84

,

09/05/2008 13:59:10
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85

kimba,

09/05/2008 14:10:03
97. LOL, I am not a closet anything! If you were attentive you would know I am a member of the English Democrats,but unlike the snp we do not want to distroy the uk,just get fair play for the people of England.
86

,

09/05/2008 14:15:02
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87

kimba,

09/05/2008 14:19:00
105.We want our own parliament so that England can run her own affairs,much the same as scotland does now,as for the rest of your post,you really are paranoid aren't you.
88

Scotsman in Dublin,

09/05/2008 14:23:01
#103 AM2,
As always you are missing the point - polls are not reliable but if you want an up to date poll there is a TNS system 3 poll from April 2008 which shows 41% for independence and 40% against. I've seen polls before that have indpendence at over 50% support, then there is the polls that you publish 10 times a day showing only 19%. The only thing all this tells us is that polls are not reliable.

Interstingly, the figures that you publish only show the percentage that said they wanted indpendence, how many said they wanted to retain the status quo? How many were 'dont knows'?

The only reliable gauge of the voting publics opinion is a free and fair referendum. Scotland was taken into the union against the will of the majority of its people - now in supposedly more democratic times it should have the chance to have its say on whether it wants to remain.

89

megz,

Glasgow 09/05/2008 14:23:05
'Gordon Brown must take account of the feeling encapsulated by the vox-pop man from Southampton who told the Today programme at the beginning of the week: "Brown! We don't want a Scotchman as Prime Minister."'

Please explain to me (tom) what is worth saving in this union when we ('scotch' people) are not considered worthy to be prime minister. What if the chap from southampton has said black or jewish instead of scotch? would there have been outrage at his racist/anti-semetic opinion? No this is not a union worth saving time to go our seperate ways.
90

Scotsman in Dublin,

09/05/2008 14:30:08
Kimba, #104/106, I agree that you should have an English parliment for English only issues but i think its bizarre that you somehow think England has been treated unfairly. Constitutionally EVERYTHING in the UK has been set up to Englands advantage. The UK parliment is in ENGLAND, the Bank of ENGLAND governs financial issues, members of the Church of ENGLAND sit in the house of Lords, MP's from ENGLAND vastly outnumber all of the other MP's and therefore the parliment always takes an English position. To suggest that England somehow has a raw deal beggars belief!
91

,

09/05/2008 14:34:54
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92

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 14:38:55
Frank G. (98): "Don’t talk to me Fairfax of being disrespectful to Australia , I would die for this wonderful Country. "

In your earlier post, you stated "We are Scottish, not British or Australian", yet now you state your willingness to die for Australia. In my view, that implies that you are Australian and, since I don't approve of dual nationality, I believe that you should take Australian citizenship. Since you have lived there for 45 years, I find it difficult to take the view that you are still Scottish, despite your presumably British nationality.

It's also interesting that you are clearly so angry with my view and yet you're willing to so easily dismiss the citizenship of your birth. When you first went to Australia, WWII had ended less than 20 years ago. Did you really not feel British in the late 1940s?
93

John S,

09/05/2008 14:42:15
#83: April 2008: YouGov/Telegraph - 19% independence, 72% devolution.
Here is the poll:If there were a referendum and the following were the options how would you vote?
In favour of retaining the Scottish Parliament with its existing powers 34
In favour of retaining the Scottish Parliament but giving it greater powers 38
In favour of a completely separate state outside the UK 19
Would not vote 9
94

Sanny,

09/05/2008 14:45:50
Tam Dalyell know very well that Devolution was brought about by the demand of the Council of Europe. It was placed first at Majors door but he lost the election to Blair who when he failed to get rid of it decided to make a virtue out of necessity by adopting it as a Labour policy.
95

JCA REID,

Annan 09/05/2008 14:56:11
It is rather hypocritical of Wendy "McNumptie" being against Scottish Independence when her boss, G. Brown, is for it: checkout youtube.co.uk. uk.youtube.com/watch?V=Kql.NQZ;FJvI . Or simply go to youtube.co.uk & type in scottish independence to see & hear Gordon Brown's speech advocating same. also her husband's speech supporting independence. In addition the present Chancellor, Alistair Darling in 2002 doing the same in an overheard conversation with his parents in a public place, wanting to ".....kick the English out & rule ourselves."
Wendy had better support the 'pretend' parliament because in a real one there would be no place for has as an MP.
96

JCA REID,

Annan 09/05/2008 14:56:11
It is rather hypocritical of Wendy "McNumptie" being against Scottish Independence when her boss, G. Brown, is for it: checkout youtube.co.uk. uk.youtube.com/watch?V=Kql.NQZ;FJvI . Or simply go to youtube.co.uk & type in scottish independence to see & hear Gordon Brown's speech advocating same. also her husband's speech supporting independence. In addition the present Chancellor, Alistair Darling in 2002 doing the same in an overheard conversation with his parents in a public place, wanting to ".....kick the English out & rule ourselves."
Wendy had better support the 'pretend' parliament b3ecause in a real one there would be no place for has as an MP.
97

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 15:14:38
Hurray! AM2's back, and completely ignoring reality as usual! Both the SNP and Wendy Alexander have said they favour a simple yes/no referendum, so all your guff about multi-option poll stats is totally irrelevant. Every survey on a two-option poll, which is what it looks like we're going to get, puts it too close to call.

And after what they've said this week, Labour would be committing absolute electoral suicide if they voted against a referendum on the basis of some petty quibble over the wording.
98

John Blackley,

Florida 09/05/2008 15:46:03
A coherent and cogent piece of writing from Tam Dalyell. His analysis - albeit brief - of some of the events that led to devolution seems to be that it was mostly a miscalculation on the part of the Labour party. Even if 'the worst' should happen (in their eyes), the Tories would get a turn and then it would be back to business as usual. Smug, arrogant and narrow-minded.

No wonder so many Scots voters despaired of them ever evolving.
99

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 09/05/2008 15:46:19
#53 New Town Resident

"Yes you are missing a lot."

Thanks for your information, although its accuracy has been questioned.

My post was in response to a comment that we are dictated to and dominated by the EU. Are you saying the things you mention, whether true or not, constitute domination, and that things would be substantially different if we weren't in the EU?
100

CowalDude,

Alba 09/05/2008 16:07:15
What is so difficult to comprehend is the almost total absence of any coherent body of argument for continuing the 1707 union of England and Wales with Scotland in its current form. Arguments against change slink out of the lazy inertia of a convenient status quo; a status quo that benefits and suits the purposes of its beneficiaries – the self-interest/career-interests of the political classes (Scots and English alike) in the Imperial Capital and the massive centralisation of the media and the self-interest of many of those working in it, mirroring the self interest of the political classes with whom they identify. This shrouds and suppresses other more progressive forces and opinions for change that run contrary to their interests.
Given the re-awakening strength of identity within each of the founder-nations on the British Isles combined with the developing jurisdiction and power of the EU, the intermediate “British Empire State”, with its associated cost, centralisation and bureaucracy cannot be justified.
There is no rational argument to counter the rapidly emerging consensus; that is, in an era of developing global politics, the current British Union is an outdated concept and organisation layer, neither big enough, nimble enough nor loved enough, whose time has passed.
The most likely outcome will not be federal; the opportunity for that has passed. Instead, there will be a loose Association of independent states with each country making its own decisions on all matters and, in practice, on foreign and defence working together on the world stage.
101

Frank . G .,

Kincumber Australia 09/05/2008 16:40:32
Fairfax #98

G’day from Downunder Fairfax my friend,
Firstly , I am Scottish not British or Australian. I was born in Glasgow 1941 moved to Saltcoats 1950 and I left Scotland 1963 aged 22years .
I am Scottish by birthright and also by my say so! (45 years away from home or not)

Persons who take out Australian Citizenship have to reside here for 2 years.
Assuming that many other countries throughout the world , have similar Citizenship criteria , I could have moved elsewhere every 2 years in the past 45 years , and could have claimed 22 different citizenships ,. Plus my mother is Irish and I am Scottish that’s 24 Citizenships.

Therefore I assume because I lived in Scotland the place of my birth for 22 years and for 2 years only in each of the other countries most folk would say I am Scottish or perhaps a bag of Dolly Mixtures.
It doesn’t matter really what anyone says, I am Scottish by birthright and also on my say so!
_________________________________________________________________________________
Quote: Fairfax # 112 “ It's also interesting that you are clearly so angry with my view and yet you're willing to so easily dismiss the citizenship of your birth. When you first went to Australia, WWII had ended less than 20 years ago. Did you really not feel British in the late 1940s?” End Quote. __________________________________________________________________________________
No I was not angry with your view , I respect it.
The Citizenship on my passport Is a Political Paper Citizenship. The Country of my Birth is Scotland and my Nationality is Scottish.
I am grateful and proud of the British participation in WW11, though I can’t say the sa
102

Frank . G .,

Kincumber 09/05/2008 16:41:42
though I can’t say the same about the participation in Iraq and Afghanistan. And finally I have never ever for a second felt British .
My father served in the Royal Navy during WW11 as a Scotsman in the British Navy , He was awarded a Distinguished Service Medal on one of his many Russian Convoys tours. he refused to attend Buckingham Palace to accept it , I have in my possession a letter of apology from King George V1 to my father , that he was unable to present the DSM to him personally. My brother has the Medal.
I really can’t see why my love for my homeland Scotland, and Australia should cause anyone else a problem ?
G’day avaniceday mate!
103

kimba,

09/05/2008 16:45:56
122. Matt o'connor is and always has been a blithering idiot,{look at his antics with fathers for justice}which I pointed out in a letter to the ED chairman, as for not recieveing votes in the London mayoral elections we polled over 83,ooo votes!
104

Patrick Henry,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 16:52:18
I remember seeing Tam Dalyell at a meeting chaired by George Foulkes in support of devolution at a Scottish Labour party conference in Perth not long after the 1979 devolution referendum. He wandered in some time after it had started and left almost immediately, smiling with satisfaction to discover that there was hardly anybody there: a dozen at most.

How times have changed, but Mr Dalyell has not changed. To his credit he has been entirely consistent in maintaining that devolution would undermine the Union. Whether or not this was inevitable is a moot point. It can, at least, be recognized that it has happened.

Does this mean that there is any possibility of undoing the damage by bringing devolution to an end? Not the slightest. Things have gone too far. The people of Scotland will hold on to their parliament and government all the more firmly if any attempt is made to take these away from them by any means whatever. Don't even think about it.

If independence is inevitable it is because the Union did not take properly in the first place. It was never popular. It was not given popular approval at any point in the history of the UK. The institutional and other vestiges of nationhood that remained therefore gave rise eventually to a desire for self-government. An administrative form of limited self-government then brought forth a demand for a democratic legislature to accompany it. This has produced a constitutional arrangement which does not work satisfactorily and which is resented in England. Mr Dalyell's West Lothian Question may soon erupt, with the expected election of a UK Conservative governmement in the foreseeable future, into a constitutional crisis which will take us on the next stage of our journey along the road to greater self-government.

There is no going back, Mr Dalyell. Some things simply are not possible. Alas, one must be realistic, you see.
105

kimba,

09/05/2008 16:52:39
122.If you had the brains you were born with you'd be dangerous!
106

kimba,

09/05/2008 17:03:17
129. What the hell are you afraid of,that England will sooner rather than later wake up to the fact that we are being shafted by the scottish raj at westminster. 50 million English to 5 million scots!
107

kimba,

09/05/2008 17:16:29
129. And just so there is no mistakethe BNP HAS nothing to do with the English democrats.
108

kimba,

09/05/2008 17:33:02
132. pity you can't answer my question @130
109

Scotsman in Dublin,

09/05/2008 17:34:11
110 AM2, I am not sure why you think it is relevant to post the opinion of a unionist writing in a unionist London based paper? I'll say it again, you are still missing the point, polls are unreliable and they are often designed to get the answer the buyer of the poll wants. You in particular are very very selective about the polls you believe - that is given away in your quote, where your buddy Simon suggests that the poll is only 40% in favour of independence because of the way it was worded.

Why is it Mr. AM2 that you only highlight the polls that give the result you want?

If polls are so reliable why are some giving support for independence at 19%, some at 40% and others at above 50%?

Why is it that you only give part of the information from the poll? All of the polls you quote only give a figure for % that want independence, you dont mention how many stated that they wanted the union to continue, and how many were undecided etc?

114 AM2,
To try and paint me as Anglophobic is nothing short of childish but this is a common tactic. I want my own country to govern itself instead of a different country holding sway so I must be a racist. To compare Scotland Yard, which is a place name, like London road in Edinburgh to a financial institution which is supposed to represent all of the UK is nonsense.
110

kimba,

09/05/2008 17:43:01
scotsman in dublin. funny how the people that matter in westminster are all scots,but you and your cronies are still not satisfied!
111

,

09/05/2008 17:43:17
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112

kimba,

09/05/2008 17:44:36
135. You still haven't answered it!
113

kimba,

09/05/2008 17:48:32
kllllllllllllllllllll
114

kimba,

09/05/2008 17:49:46
137. Oh come on,haven't got all night!
115

kimba,

09/05/2008 18:02:10
137. OK,ALWAYS NEW YOU WERE FULL OF SH-T!
116

Scotsman in Dublin,

09/05/2008 18:07:27
136 Kimba,
Funny that you think that Scots in the Westminster goverment is a problem, you probably thought it was fine when the Tories run the UK with just a handful of Scottish MP's.
117

kimba,

09/05/2008 18:10:21
142. I never said that and you know it.
118

Scotsman in Dublin,

09/05/2008 18:17:28
Interesting. Take the racist quote from the article and a couple of others I found in the comments of an online Times article.

"Brown! We don't want a Scotchman as Prime Minister."
“If Brown thinks the English will vote him or any other Labour/Scottish person in, he's sadly mistaken”
“And who would head this new quango? Why, another Scottie parasite of course!”

Insert Black (or Asian, Jewish etc) and these statement would quite rightly be denounced as racist and offensive.

"Brown! We don't want a Black Man as Prime Minister."
“If Brown thinks the English will vote him or any other Labour/Black person in, he's sadly mistaken”
“And who would head this new quango? Why, another Black parasite of course!”

Why is it acceptable in the UK to be racist only if you are talking about Scottish people?
119

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 18:21:02
AM2 =Labours Chemical Ali.

Posted missing on every Wendys scandal story when going was tough.

Posted missing - from todays Scotsmans Brown story.

Some stats posted by him here - must feel on safer ground.

120

kimba,

09/05/2008 18:25:09
146. BUT IT'S OK FOR SCOTS TO BEAT UP KIDS IN A SCOTTISH PARK BECAUSE HE'S WEARING A ENGLISH FOOTIE SHIRT!
121

,

09/05/2008 18:37:21
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122

kimba,

09/05/2008 18:40:00
Whats the matter traquir,cat got your tongue,answer the question
123

,

09/05/2008 18:42:15
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,

09/05/2008 18:47:49
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125

,

09/05/2008 18:53:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
126

Scotsman in Dublin,

09/05/2008 18:54:03
AM2,
#149,
"But you like highlighting the Nov 2006 ICM poll and the 41% TNS"
No wrong again, i dont like highlighting polls at all, I dont usually do it and the only reason I did on this occasion is to show you up.

"Now you seem to be suggesting that I should be taking account of "do not knows" and "would not votes". Why? Because reality isn't to your liking?"
I'm just suggesting that you give the whole result and not just the bit that suits you - funny that you still havent done that.

If you want to keep trying to taint me as Anglophobic then bash on. It doesnt work, because I havent said anything on this forum that would make me Anglophobic, it just makes you appear to have a mental age of 12 by trying to pain me as a racist because I disagree with you politically.

#152, My "cringe is unfortunate", i am not sure what you are trying to imply, please elaborate?


127

Scotsman in Dublin,

09/05/2008 18:57:25
151 Kimba,
No its not ok - what a stupid comment. What age are you? If you cant accept that those comments are racist then you really do have a problem
128

kimba,

09/05/2008 19:04:02
165.How old are you,that my dear was called sarcasm,but you are clearly as thick as pig sh-t.
129

kimba,

09/05/2008 19:14:54
163. lets get this clear,my dad is scottish,spent half of my life in scotland,but never have I come across anyone who did not support the union,my gran who is 86 has lived through more than most,she is a proud scot but an even prouder Brit,her view of the snp would be "baw heids the lot of them".
130

Scotsman in Dublin,

09/05/2008 19:22:27
171, Kimba,
"but never have I come across anyone who did not support the union"
Did you grow up in the basement of an orange lodge?
131

Richardinho,

09/05/2008 19:30:16
'Why do you think the minority 46-strong SNP group at Holyrood should be able to decide what legislation is passed?'


They shouldn't. the whole parliament should. However since no party has a majority, parties must work together or else nothing would ever get passed!
The SNP looked like it would struggle to get its referendum bill through until Wendy's intervention.
132

Richardinho,

09/05/2008 19:33:48
#177 I don't know what you mean exactly. The Parliament has been up and running for ten years now. We've seen how these parties work together. The SNP government is now a year old and we have seen how it has worked with the other parties.
133

Scotsman in Dublin,

09/05/2008 19:37:55
#168 AM2, grow up. I only cited a couple of polls to give examples of polls where independence was 40% and above. Why were these not amongst your examples?

169 AM2,
How on earth can anything below make me anglophobic?

"EVERYTHING in the UK has been set up to Englands advantage." - This is historically true, the parliment is there, there is English Church representation in the Lords etc, dont see any Church of Scotland there do you? etc etc etc

You said: "MP's from ENGLAND vastly outnumber all of the other MP's" - How can you argue with this. 59 Scots MP's versus 500+ English. If 100% of the Scots MP's vote on an issue of importance to Scotland it can still be easily defeated.

You said: "the parliment always takes an English position." this is taken out of context, but it relates to the one above. If parliment needs to decide between a decision that would benefit SCotland and one that would benefit England they will always swing where the votes are.

None of these things are the fault of the average English person - but they are real issues.

This is getting boring, its always the same old tactics with you. Screeds of polls (selected by you) and everyone is a racist that doesnt agree with you. Lets just have the referendum and have the discussion afterwards. If it really is 19% in favour the SNP will collapse, I will remain quietly confident that it will be much higher.

Enjoy the weekend.
134

Col. Blimp IV*,

09/05/2008 19:43:17
"as foreseen by Eric Mackay, a great, shrewd, fair, and vehemently pro-assembly editor of The Scotsman"

They don't make 'em like that anymore!
135

Richardinho,

09/05/2008 19:43:27
I can't see the SNP collapsing-even if the referendum results in a 'no' vote. Firstly, there will always be supporters of independence. Perhaps we will have to wait a generation for nationalism to revive.

The other thing is that the SNP have found a real niche in holyrood; a party that is not answerable to Westminster.

That will always be an attractive option for Scots.

Since the SNP have demonstrated a reasonable level of competency, there is no reason for them not to be a force in politics for years to come.
136

European Scot,

09/05/2008 20:09:16
103 AM2
In brief...
#88 European Scot - "Those aren't multi-option polls."

149 AM2
#134 Scotsman in Dublin

"On the contrary, I've referred to ALL recent polls. Multi-option, single option, showing a variety of results..... "

Excuse my confusion here AM2 but which 'those' aren't, and which 'those' are
multi option polls in my post at 88 ?
I was talking of a number of polls in general terms, the main point of the post was the nature of the questions asked.
137

kimba,

09/05/2008 20:13:38
Don't hold your breath AM2,traquir seems unwilling or unable to answer questions.
138

Pilrig.,

Livingston 09/05/2008 20:49:07
Tam once said that devolution was a motorway to an independent Scotland. He should realise that u-turns arenae allowed on motorways !
139

Pilrig.,

Livingston 09/05/2008 20:53:41
No doubt the Aborigines say, "bloody immigrants !"
140

Pilrig.,

Livingston 09/05/2008 20:54:11
192 was referring to poster 94
141

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 09/05/2008 21:06:24
No that Tam's biased mind!
142

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 21:11:27
Apropos the basic tenant of the Dalyell article, why don’t the serial dependence cringers put up a candidate at the next local or central government bye-election?
Surely AM2 would volunteer to be their candidate?
He, she, or neither, claims to understand the essentially Unionist nature of the Scottish electorate by selectively quoting opinion polls, which favour whichever the position the unionists take, on any given day.
Even the Ulster Unionists no longer appear to support direct rule from Westminster, far less is there any support from the Irish Republic for re-incorporation into the “United Kingdom”.
So, “bring it on” unionists, tell us why we are too wee, too stupid, too poor, too inept to look after ourselves.
( And, also tell us who we should invade to maintain our “world power” status?)
143

Eve,

Scotland 09/05/2008 21:27:40
"All I ask is people don't sleepwalk into something that actually they don't want."

Did Tam Dalyell sleep walk in a door or something hard last night?

Most people in Scotland are intellegent and would never sleep walk in to something that is or was wroung for them an our country.

Belive me as some one who has choicento go with the flow and has made a staern choice. I can safely say that the going with the flow hasn't just been easier BUT also has lead me to things that have been benifesal for me and some time work out better than the staren choice I make.

Some times its better to follow the flow, engoy life and get the most out of good dessions.
144

Eve,

Scotland 09/05/2008 21:31:09
#195 bully wee alba: I think there lates thing is lonelyness!!! It's odd.

Or Icealation i.e. building up borders or some who drilling a physical gap between Scotland and England
145

Calvinist,

09/05/2008 22:23:51
This level of discussion is very depressing and even frightening. If this forum truly represents the views of the people of Scotland, then I fear for the future of our nation. Are we going to be ruled by bigots and ideologues who are impervious to and incapable of rational discussion?

Tam Dalyell is one of the most impressive, original-thinking and courageous politicians this country has produced. He makes a very interesting and original point. You may not agrree with what he says. But what do you do? Do you engage in rational argument? No we get the usual tribal response from the book of nationalist fundamentalism.

I'm perfectly willing to be persuaded by you, but every time you blow it as you come out with the usual reflex nonsense.

Prove to me that independence is truly the best way forward. Provide EVIDENCE!
146

Richardinho,

09/05/2008 22:56:13
#198 wind up merchant.
10 points!
147

kirk 1,

09/05/2008 23:33:21
#198 I'll bite. How do you engage in rational debate with the article?
He just stated the bleedin obvious.
It's the unionists that are trying to argue that devloution will not lead to independence, when every nationalist believes the opposite.

You want evidence? Disregard all media and walk around where you live and look at what the union has reduced this country to.
Visit parts that the police, never mind the politicians fear to enter.


148

Darien,

Panama 09/05/2008 23:45:47
#198 Tell us what Dalyell says the advantage of Union is for the Scots (or English)? He does nothing of the kind. He shows no advantage, because there is no advantage, which means there can be only disadvantage, and opportunity (from independence). Scots folk need to take the opportunity. Do you believe in your fellow country-folk's ability? That is the only question? I believe, without question. Bring it on!
149

Willie Macleod,

Wick 10/05/2008 01:20:46
#198 Calvinist #200 Encarta You are both right.I have never agreed with Tam Dalyell on this but let people have their say.
We have to discuss the future of our country with decency and respect for each others opinion, be it Nationalist or Unionist


150

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 10/05/2008 02:42:03
Scottish Borders,

My dear fellow, surely you are not seriously trying to fain ignorance on just how extensive, is the roll of the EUP and EU bureaucrats in your (and the lives of your fellow Scots) daily life?

The Energy Taxes you pay, for utilities, petrol/diesel, toll taxes, etc., are directly related to the forced requirements (policies) put in place by the EU on member states. The prices you pay in your local supermarket for fish, meats, and veggies, are again directly related to the forced agriculture/fisheries policies-requirements put in place, by you guessed it, the EU and EU bureaucrats.

Each month you pay your utility bill, part of the taxes you are paying are there because of EU fiat. When you sit down to your breakfast for bangers and eggs, the farmers and ranchers had to meet EU requirements in raising their livestock.

When you take you wife/girlfriend out for a nice seafood supper at a pleasant restaurant, the cost of the fish/shellfish on your plate is partially determined by the catch quotas forced upon Scottish fishermen by the EU. Further, the overhead the restaurant has to pay; employee costs, utility costs, insurance costs, workplace safety costs, etc., ALL affected by EU dictates placed upon Scottish Businesses by both elected and unelected EU officials.

Talk to some Scottish fishermen about EU restrictions, which cost them a great deal of money, loss of jobs, and yes, loss of tax revenues (which fund the socialist programs to which so many Scots are addicted) for local and State treasuries.

How about you do some research and realize just how extensive is the grip of the EU upon the daily lives of the average Scot.

Cheers from the Rockies
151

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 08:21:59
#204 Neanderthal

EU fishing quotas were introduced due to a distinct lack of fish, due to over-fishing.

...Mind you, some Scottish fishermen are doing extremely well out of the EU restrictions... Any idea how many millionaires there are in Shetland?
152

Derick fae Yell,

The Hoose 10/05/2008 08:26:40
one post before I go fix my car (again).

Up to this week I expected Scottish Independence to be inevitable, but perhaps not for 20 or 30 years.

After the Mouth of the South's intervention this week, I expect it to happen in under 10 years.

Bring it on!








153

Andrew D,

Brisbane 10/05/2008 08:53:58
An observation from afar.

Polls should be banned.

That's all
154

,

10/05/2008 10:12:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
155

democracy,

Scottish Borders 10/05/2008 11:39:58
#21 rbnr says, "Only numpties think that independence is the only, or best, alternative", then complains when #23 called his opinions wishy-washy, by calling it rudeness in comment #30.
My god,'rulesbutnotrulers'you truly are unbelievable when you use the word numpties for those who differ from your opinion and complain when someone says yours are wishy-washy, you truly are an ignorant hypocrite!
156

Tom R,

10/05/2008 14:12:20
#204 Neanderthal75

You say "How about you do some research and realize just how extensive is the grip of the EU upon the daily lives of the average Scot."

Let us accept for the purpose of discussion that you are right about the grip of the EU on Scotland.

Are you aware that an independent country with a population the size of Scotland's (5 million) is entitled to both far more Euro MPs than Scotland, as well as a seat at the EU "top table"? For example Slovenia has only a population of 2 million but has the same number of EU MPs as Scotland (7). It also has a seat at the top table, of course. The Irish Republic, with a population of less than Scotland's has 13 EU MPs.

Therefore, if the EU is as important to Scotland as you say, why should we not maximise our influence by existing as an independent country with a seat at the EU top table and up to 19 EU MPs?.

Don't bother replying with any nonsense about how Scotland is better represented as part of a larger UK-Scots who lived through the betrayal of the Scottish fishing industry by Heath shouldn't fall for that drivel any longer, and in the fishing areas of Scotland they certainly do not.
157

Fairfax,

11/05/2008 10:25:25
Tom R. (210): "why should we not maximise our influence by existing as an independent country with a seat at the EU top table and up to 19 EU MPs?."

You're certainly correct that MEP representation is proportionately higher for smaller EU states, to limit the power of larger nations. For example, Germany has 0.83 MEPs/million, whilst Britain, France and Italy have roughly 1.3 MEPs/million. In contrast, Ireland has 3.25 MEPs/million. Given that Scotland and Finland have roughly the same population, 14 MEPs would be suitable, i.e. just under 3 MEPs/million.

However, England would be equally likely to keep the current quota of 78 MEPS, since England's population has grown so much since the early 1990s. Thus one consequence of Scottish independence would be to increase the MEPs/million figure for England. Alternatively, perhaps it is time for the larger EU nations to insist on more proportionate representation, at 3 MEPs/million say increasing England's representation to 180 MEPs, and Germany's to some 240 MEPs.
158

Richard M,

Scottish Raj 11/05/2008 12:07:45
Tam Dalyell is spot on. While devolution itself in a more federalist form might have worked, the current structure was designed to give jobs to Labour party hacks, be it in Scotland, Wales or London. But it hasn't worked out like that; big fish in small ponds like Alex Salmond see their chance. Meanwhile, Gordon Brown is about as attractive to most English voters as Maggie Thatcher was to the Scots. Result: the awful Tories back in England and the Ace enn Pee in Scotland. It's a recipe for disintegration

What can be done? One option is a more federalist structure with the constituent parts of the UK taking on more powers for their own taxing and spending, and self-rule for English regions rather than being ruled by bossy Scots. But this still leaves the opportunity for wily empire builders like Salmond. Chances are it's too late

 

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