Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Blair received into Catholic Church in private Mass at cardinal's home

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 24 December 2007
CARDINAL Keith O'Brien, the Archbishop of Edinburgh, last night welcomed Tony Blair, the former prime minister, into the Roman Catholic Church.
Mr Blair made the long- predicted conversion at a special service on Friday conducted by the Archbishop of Westminster, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, and his private secretary, Monsignor Mark O'Toole.

Mr Blair joins his wife Cherie and four children in the Roman Catholic faith.

Cardinal O'Brien told The Scotsman: "I was very happy to hear that Tony Blair had been received into the Catholic Church.

"He had obviously spent a long time considering God's call. Now I join with others in wishing him and his family every blessing as they go forward together in one faith."

Following the special Mass at the archbishop's house in Westminster, attended by Mrs Blair and their children, Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor – the leading Roman Catholic in England and Wales – said the service was "very intimate, very prayerful". The Vatican has also welcomed Mr Blair's decision to become a Catholic.

It comes as research suggests Catholic churchgoers now outnumber Anglicans in the UK for the first time in 500 years.

A Vatican spokesman said such an "authoritative personality" choosing to join the Catholic Church "could only give rise to joy and respect".

Last year, Mr Blair, who is now a Middle East peace envoy, said he had prayed to God when deciding whether or not to send UK troops into Iraq.

It had been an open secret that Mr Blair had been taking instruction from a Catholic priest as a prelude to conversion.

Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, wished the former prime minister well in his spiritual journey.

Dr Williams said: "A great Catholic writer of the last century said that the only reason for moving from one Christian family to another was to deepen one's relationship with God.

"I pray that this will be the result of Tony Blair's decision in his personal life."

But the former Tory minister Ann Widdecombe – herself a Catholic convert – said Mr Blair's voting record as an MP had often "gone against Church teaching" and that his conversion raised some questions.

The Society for the Protection of Unborn Children (SPUC) reacted with surprise to the news of Mr Blair's conversion.

John Smeaton, its national director, said: "During his premiership Tony Blair became one of the world's most significant architects of the culture of death, promoting abortion, experimentation on unborn embryos, including cloned embryos, and euthanasia by neglect.

"SPUC is writing to Tony Blair to ask him whether he has repented of the anti-life positions he has so openly advocated throughout his political career."

There has never been a Roman Catholic prime minister of Britain, although there is no constitutional barrier to such a move.

However, it had been suggested in the past that Mr Blair would wait until after leaving office, to avoid possible clashes such as that of the role in appointing Church of England bishops.

A RELIGIOUS OFFICE

TONY Blair's formal conversion appears to have taken a number of months and it is thought his decision followed a period of contemplation rather than a "falling out" with the Church of England over an issue such as the ordination of women priests.

The move comes after years of speculation that Mr Blair would convert from Anglicanism after he resigned from No 10 in June.

Converting while in office would have caused him problems in connection with issues such as abortion, contraception, homosexuality and faith schools.

Mr Blair's former spokesman, Alastair Campbell, once famously told reporters "We don't do God", but has since said that his former boss "does do God in quite a big way".

Even while in office, Mr Blair attended Catholic services with his family, but did not participate fully.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 23 December 2007 10:42 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Boy Wonder,

24/12/2007 00:28:35
The only problem I have with this, is that he didn't do it while in office at Number Ten!

Coward!
2

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 24/12/2007 01:15:15
Since you have proclaimed yourself to be a ?"Former Roman Catholic" - whatever that entails - and now have called Blair a coward it is obvious that the Christmas OR Holiday spirit is not with thee.

You have called me a twit and seem to be in a generally foul mood.

I wish you and your family greetings of the season and best wishes for all in the New Year.

Some of us have grace and forgiveness in us and I sincerely hope this mood of yours will pass.

Frankly, I was surprised at the vehemence of your vitriol.
3

Miss Jean Brodie,

24/12/2007 01:49:05
5 shillings on ‘Charlie is my Darling’ at the 3.15 Cheltenham

Merry Buddahmas!
4

Scullion,

Canada 24/12/2007 01:59:06
If Ms. Widdecombe's advice were to be followed, no Roman Catholic would ever be elected in Britain, U.S.A., Canada etc. as they would be considered pawns of Rome. Politicians represent their consituents, not thier personal agendas.
To all who agree, disagree or can't be bothered, I wish you all a merry Christmas to you and yours in the best tradition of what this season is meant to bring.
5

,

24/12/2007 04:03:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

BMCG,

24/12/2007 05:03:05
#2 - your comments must pertain to something other than what appears in this thread or are the postings incomplete?
#5 – you should re read #4’s posting a second time – you didn’t get it the first time through.
7

Harris tweed and levi's 501,

Edinburgh 24/12/2007 05:32:59
Will a few “Hail Marys” absolve St Tony of his war crimes?
8

samhain,

no mans land 24/12/2007 05:47:31
7 He needs more than a few Hail Mary's.
9

Bob Brundige,

Springfield 24/12/2007 06:04:24
Why can't people, like Mr.Blair see that denomination for what it represents? Worldliness. If one were to go back in time and ask St. Paul, or even St. Peter, what a Catholic was. They would surely be puzzled.
10

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 24/12/2007 06:45:22
Blair has gone from being an Anglo-Catholic to becoming a Roman Catholic, what is the big deal.
11

Media 1,

cape town 24/12/2007 08:01:29
And so another gun toting person with little respect for human life enters the most corrupt, murderous and deceitful organisation on Earth.
You cannot challenge my comments, one look at the history books tells all we need to know about this organisation!
12

Paul Voltaire,

24/12/2007 08:06:11
His first Confession is bound to be an epic.
13

McMillar,

Fife 24/12/2007 08:29:41
#12 – Too true! He’d better get an estimate 1st and book a day off. Keeps Blair in the news but do we really care? Left a mess and farewell tour dragged on for years. I like the comment from #9 as well. Why feel the need to put a label on your beliefs? My god is bigger than your god..? Maybe that’s what he’s doing…trying to pick a winning side again. I wonder if he’ll use this to now justify future decisions. Dangerous man who may in future be convicted of war crimes.
14

donald,

glasgow 24/12/2007 08:33:35
Beads and Bead and beads of Holy Watter.
Blair fell doon the Chapel sterrs
into the world hereafter.

When he got there his bunker was bare
No weapons of mass destruction.
He phoned the burning Bush to send them to oblivion.
15

bill2,

FH 24/12/2007 09:07:20
"Cardinal O'Brien told The Scotsman: "I was very happy to hear that Tony Blair had been received into the Catholic Church."
"He had obviously spent a long time considering God's call."

A different God to the one known to the rest of the Christian community; one who condones false witness, killing, and other breaches of the ten commandments.

Blair is not repentant, and as such is not fit to be a member of any church.
16

Saltslodge,

Monmouth 24/12/2007 09:09:06
Now that it is unlikely Blair is going to be elected president of the EU or Director General of the UN and his role as peace envoy is going nowhere he's obviously launched his campaign for Pope
17

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 09:14:13
Going by what Anne Widdecombe said then, for votes in parliament you should just phone the Pope, find out what his opinion is and just add the number of Catholic votes in whatever direction he's said. Anything else would be "against the church's teachings".
18

jdships,

Edinburgh 24/12/2007 09:15:14
Whose really interested ?
This is a non event about a yesterday man !!!!!!!
19

The Equaliser,

24/12/2007 09:31:28
Bliar cant do us any more damage so if it makes him feel better good luck to him. Joining the Church of Rome has no bearing on anything so get on with it Tony and remember any wrong doing can be sorted out in the confession box.
20

Boy Wonder,

24/12/2007 09:35:09
#2. My vitriol was a little diluted! Unlike Blair who has always been deluded, Tim! :D
21

Boy Wonder,

24/12/2007 09:37:09
btw ... isn't Religion the last Refuge of the Scoundrel??
22

albanman,

The capital city 24/12/2007 09:52:57
No.15 Blair is certainly not one of my favourite politicians, but no human being (you included) can judge the condition of his soul. I think he should have made the move whilst PM, but I can understand why he might have seen that as problematic when dealing with N.Ireland.

No.11 I wonder what history books you read. Your vitriolic opinions are cheap,like South African wine. Back up or stay quite.
23

Joey Pica,

St Atheism on Sea 24/12/2007 09:59:55
No 21, Boy Wonder wrote:
"btw ... isn't Religion the last Refuge of the Scoundrel??"
Nah! Phoney Tony has the House of Lords to look forward to.
24

Helen,

24/12/2007 10:02:30
As a practising Catholic I feel like walking away from the Catholic Church....How on earth can an evil man like Blair be admitted to any Christian denomination? He is a war criminal and is only interested in massaging his own ego. I am disgusted at the Cardinal and will be writing to tell him so.
25

Loki,

Valhalla 24/12/2007 10:15:46
O'Brien, O'Connor, O'Toole, O'come all yea war criminals and help yourself to the feast Cherie.
26

Media 1,

cape town 24/12/2007 10:21:58
Albanman:

For the record. Are you absolutely rejecting the fact that The Vatican signed concardat's with Musollini and Hitler? Are you absolutlely and catagorically stating that The Vatican pope in 1945 did not say, " Hitler can guide the ship, he knows what he is doing. I met him prior to him becomming Chacellor and I was impressed by his clarity of mind and excellent vision" Are you denying that those words were spoken?

Are you stating here and now for the record, that Pius III did not murder 60 000 catholic protesters in one day and then call it the crowning achievment of his papacy? Are you denying that?

Are you saying that members of the RC Church in this day and age are NOT PROTESTANTS (In the true sense) protesters in otherwords. Are you denying that the followers of this organisation are in agreement with their church in terms of abortion, homosexuality and contraception? Or are they protesters? Are you suggesting that all catholics agree that the past vicars of christ should still be honoured by the modern Vatican regardless of their murderous past?
Are you telling me that none of the above is based on fact?
27

Media 1,

cape town 24/12/2007 10:29:44
And for the record. I am not against catholics, if I was I would need to reject my parents.
I am against the organisation that represents Catholics.
I am against that organisations murderous and horrific human rights record. I am against their old alliance with Hitler and Musollini. I am against the fact that they continue to honour ALL the past popes on the vicars of christ list regardless that some of them murdered 60 000 people in one day. I am against their dictatorial position and refusal to offer people a relationship with god. Instead they seek to capture you, place you in bondange tied to their laws and rules, for the reward of heaven.
I despise this organisation and all that it stands for, and if that makes me a bigot then that is a name I will gladly wear around my neck. In the old days the Vatican called us protesters, now we are bigots! Go figure!
28

Born to roughneck,

Reading the Herald 24/12/2007 10:29:45
Call me cynical but how much will Bliar get for the TV and publishing rights to his first confession??
29

TSynicto the core,

saltireland. 24/12/2007 10:32:48
Does anyone know how much the money-grubbing Cherie charged the Vatican as transfer fee to entice Tony from the other side?
As to her being a 'very devout' Catholic her devotion didn't get in the way of her banking a six figure fee for speaking at dinners in aid of an Australian charity for children with cancer-money that morally should have gone to the charity.
The Catholic Church's loss is the Anglo Church's gain.
30

Mcsnagpile,

24/12/2007 10:51:21
Well Maggie has missed out on this one. She could have become the first lady pope and had the high privilege of using the papal diapers
31

Stoo,

24/12/2007 10:57:22
Look on the bright side - he'll never get near the throne now.
32

bill2,

24/12/2007 10:58:42
19
The Equaliser,

"Bliar cant do us any more damage"

Want to bet on it?
33

bill2,

24/12/2007 11:03:16
22
albanman,

"Blair is certainly not one of my favourite politicians, but no human being (you included) can judge the condition of his soul."

With his record of murder, lies, theft, betrayal and denial, I think we could take a good guess at the blackness of it.
34

scottish person,

paisley 24/12/2007 11:14:58
He could not become a catholic, as it is not permitted to be PM and catholic at the same time in this queen ruled country. Henry the 8th seen to that. When is this country going to enter the 21st century.
35

shivago8,

livingston 24/12/2007 11:24:56
The liar can do what he wants,but why was the camera,s there,he obviously wants to have a snipe at someone For god,s sake keep him out of the limelight,we have had enough of this warmonger who is responsible for spilling the blood of millions of people,how on earth can he sleep at night
36

Kipling,

@DoomRay Heretical Refuge 24/12/2007 11:28:01
See Scotland on Sunday:
He had to think of something to keep him in the news. &
""The very fact that Blair has promoted the right to abortion would horrify many papists. Those R.C.s who take their religion seriously during the week as well as on Sunday would see both abortion and contraception as against the teachings of the Church (as well as potentially being murder) -- although I suspect adding to their number and having such an infamous convert might overwhelm the principles of some of the stricter ones.

"Westminster, 7 July 2004 - The Society for the Protection of Unborn Children (SPUC), Europe's largest pro-life group and the world's first pro-life lobbying and educational organisation, has rejected as "spin" comments by Tony Blair, the Prime Minister, and David Steel, abortion law pioneer, on abortion law reform.

"Anthony Ozimic, SPUC political secretary, commented: 'Both Tony Blair and David Steel are unrepentant promoters of ever greater access to abortion, and no one should be duped by their spin about their alleged re-think on abortion.'"

Again, what was Blair doing in the participation of having Rowan Williams appointed as Archbishop of Canterbury? Surely at this stage, with his leanings towards papism, he should have opted out. But no, our Blair likes to have his fingers in all parts of the power pudding. The irony is inescapable, CofE having one of their most senior spokemen voted in by an aspiring Catholic convert? ""

I note as indicated above at #25 that the individuals who have received him into the R.C. church have all irish surnames. Did the others politely refuse?
37

Pax V,

24/12/2007 11:28:27
SP, 34

The only bar to a Catholic being Prime Minister is the widespread bigotry it generates amongst neanderthals. Some good examples shown on this page.

38

Pax V,

24/12/2007 11:31:57
Kipling 36

List all those who refused, please.
39

Pax V,

24/12/2007 11:35:13
Amidst this sad outbreak of bigotry and badness, there are some outbreaks of incredible stupidity and ignorance.

Forums like these work much better when contributors demonstrate their knowledge rather than their ignorance!

My favourites are the ignoramuses who base their comments on Catholic teaching re the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession) on watching a few episodes of the Dave Allen Show in 1979. Hilarious....
40

Kipling,

@DoomRay Heretical Refuge 24/12/2007 11:42:16
#38. I wish.
41

Stoo,

24/12/2007 11:55:57
"He could not become a catholic, as it is not permitted to be PM and catholic at the same time in this queen ruled country. Henry the 8th seen to that. When is this country going to enter the 21st century."

Lies and nonsense.
42

Pax V,

24/12/2007 12:25:40
Stoo, 41

Did it ever occur to you that the author of #34 might have been mistaken rather than lying?

And, what is your view of a society in which a man is unable to freely convert to the religious belief of his choice?
43

Pax V,

24/12/2007 12:26:47
Bob 42

But you couldnt resist reading and COMMENTING on this "non story".
44

Pax V,

24/12/2007 12:29:16
Kipling, 40

Then please explain your comment.

Are you surprised that Tony's conversion to the one true faith was led by the local Catholic community rather than leaders in South America or Africa? Please explain.
45

Stoo,

Oxton 24/12/2007 12:36:49
"Did it ever occur to you that the author of #34 might have been mistaken rather than lying?"

Nope, it was the usual outlandish lies that are all too common here.

"And, what is your view of a society in which a man is unable to freely convert to the religious belief of his choice?"

Blairs gawd bothering was not kept secret.

"Are you surprised that Tony's conversion to the one true faith"

One true fait, oh good grief.
46

Pax V,

24/12/2007 13:04:04
#46, Gordon

Explaion to us how you arrived at such a bizarre conclusion.
47

Stoo,

24/12/2007 13:06:43
#48 - something to do with the "one true faith" nonsense.
48

Pax V,

24/12/2007 13:09:38
Oxon, 47

Explain to us HOW you KNOW #34 was LIES rather than a simple mistake.

Whilst Tony's Christian inclinations were indeed well known, he was wary of converting to Catholicism. I ask you AGAIN - what is your view of a society in which a man is unable to freely convert to the religious belief of his choice? can you answer openly and honestly this time, please?

Are you surprised that Tony's conversion to the one true faith was led by the local Catholic community rather than leaders in South America or Africa? Please explain - was addressed to another contributor. I'm not surprised to note he has done a runner.
49

Pax V,

24/12/2007 13:23:30
Gordon,52

How bizarre.

Over 1000 million people believe the Catholic Church is the one true faith.

You're plainly deranged.
50

Pax V,

24/12/2007 13:25:12
Wini, 51

It's interesting to note that many would have had a problem if a Catholic were to appoint Ch of Eng Bishops.....but the fact that Gordon Brown is NOT an Anglican doesnt trouble them.
51

Stoo,

24/12/2007 13:25:31
"Explain to us HOW you KNOW #34 was LIES rather than a simple mistake."

Why would you be mistaken about that?

"Over 1000 million people believe the Catholic Church is the one true faith. "

Arrogant nonsense.
52

Lock,

24/12/2007 13:36:39
'Over 1000 million people believe the Catholic Church is the one true faith.'

Leaving over 5000 million people that don't.

I'd rather be deranged than an idiot.
53

Pax V,

24/12/2007 13:37:16
Gordon, 156

Only YOU suggesting they dont count.

They are ENTITLED to their view, just as I am ENTITLED to mine. It's called a liberal democracy.

Incidentally, Catholicism is the biggest religion in the world.
54

Pax V,

24/12/2007 13:38:04
Lock, 57

As you wish.

Deranged it is then.
55

Pax V,

24/12/2007 13:39:05
Stoo, 55

Are we not allowed to hold our own religious views, Adolf?
56

Pax V,

24/12/2007 13:42:13
I see the intolerant seculars are out in force today.

Otherwise known as the Thought Police!

Err....errmmmm...is it OK if I hold some religious views in Britain in 2007?
57

truthsleuth,

24/12/2007 13:44:15
We now know the reason for his pressure for 'Faith Schools'
The quid pro quo for his entry to the catholic church and thence to become Gods envoy on earth'.
58

jdships,

Edinburgh 24/12/2007 14:04:22
Please please please !
Let's just move on from this meaningless story .

Religon is for the religeous - whoever they may be , thank goodness it's not me !!!
59

Walter Ego,

Durness 24/12/2007 14:06:07
Roman Catholic Church? What about a Roman Catholic Council Tax freeze?
60

Pax V,

24/12/2007 14:08:27
Meths, 64

All for the individual to decide...

Each to his own, eh?

I just think it's sad that widespread intolerant secularism cannot cope with a man freely expressing his religious beliefs.

Some good examples above. Adolf would have been proud iof these fascists.
61

Pax V,

24/12/2007 14:09:28
truth, 63

Anything to support your claim?
62

Pax V,

24/12/2007 14:11:58
Stoo,

Point out to that silly moo Winnie that the PM selects the Bishops....and that Gordonm Broon aint an Anglican!

Lapsed Catholics....aye...we have them....like EVERY other faith.

Time for the intolerance to stop, folks.
63

Pax V,

24/12/2007 14:13:03
Nubar, 69

Murders?

Really?

I must have missed that.

Any links?

S'funny....cant find any reference to them on the BBC site.

Does the sun shine in your world?
64

sam the god,

24/12/2007 14:16:40
well he will now be able to get special needs equipment from social work now
65

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 24/12/2007 14:18:35
# 1 Boy Wonder...... Spot on . Blair was a coward. He was afraid to upset the sectarian British establishment.Where else in the western world do we have the prime minister of any country appointing Protestant bishops to a house of parliament? Britain is a anti- Catholic sectarian state.Also, all members of the British parliament must swear loyalty to the sectarian English monarchy,or suffer expulsion from that house,and they have the cheek to call themselves" the mother of parliaments" Bigots one and all. Who said "home rule was Rome rule? Oh! dear Oh dear!
66

Pax V,

24/12/2007 14:27:39
Nubar, 74

Err...where's those murder convictions?

Any links?

WHO decided Tony Blair was a murderer? YOU?
67

Bashkim Krasniqi,

London 24/12/2007 15:04:54
This is the most wonderful Christmas present that I have ever received. Blair I pray for your enemies that they shall be punished whenever they write hatred comments about you and your family. We are now real brothers in Christ. Alleluia !!!!
68

Stoo,

24/12/2007 15:07:33
"Are we not allowed to hold our own religious views, Adolf? "

You are indeed, but calling the one true faith is what causes all the problems you gawd botherers bring to the world.

"Time for the intolerance to stop, folks. "

As the resident fundie, I wish you listen to yourself.
69

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 15:09:06
#75 Pax
Hello there, Pax old chap! Long time no hear! Back rattling the rosaries again, are you?

I personally have no problem with Tony Blair (or anyone else) being/becoming/stopping being a Catholic - it's up to him/them. I would have a problem with a Prime Minister deferring any judgement he/she might make to Rome, though. After all we elect a politicicn to represent us, not a theoligian - and a foreign one at that!!
70

Media 1,

cape town 24/12/2007 15:11:43
If we take your average practicing Catholic's in the modern era, we essentially have god fearing people who worship their diety through the laws and rules in place for them, as set out by the Roman Catholic Church..
Now considering that most Catholics are at odds with the Churches views on abortion, homosexuality, contraception, confession and some other contentious issues, it must be said that they are protesting the churches views. In other words, they are protestants. Fortunately for them, in this day and age they will not be murdered by the Pope and his cronies for their views. But it is interesting to note that by disagreeing with so many laws, people are in essence protesting...
71

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 24/12/2007 15:18:22
Well done to Tony Blair for converting to the one true church founded by Jesus Christ.Saint Peter was the first Pope!His successor being the present Pope.Read the gospel according to St.Matthew.Chapter16...verses 16 to 19 and believe brothers! A happy Christmas to you all and good health in 2008,whether you be Catholic, Protestant Jew or non-believer.
72

yoric,

24/12/2007 15:35:10
Another War Criminal taken in by the Catholic Church, perhaps the Church will authorise a false identity for Blair, like the Catholic Church did for hundreds of Nazi fugitives in 1945/46.
73

Media 1,

Cape Town 24/12/2007 15:37:30
Hunky Dorey
TRUE CHURCH??? lmao

Not only does Rome's pope call himself infallible and a vicar of christ, but the church he heads CLAIMS to be the one true church and the bride of christ. CHRISTS bride, whose hope is to join her bridegroom in heaven, is to have NO WORDLY POSSESIONS or ambitions. Yet the VATICAN is obsessed with earthly enterprise, and has indulged in adultrous relationships with the kings of the earth. A fact supported by Catholic historians!
74

Alberto.,

24/12/2007 15:41:58
After seeing how the 'Blair Partnership' operates - (Mr & predominantly Mrs.) over the last memorable (or should that be never to be forgotten!) decade, it is not too difficult to understand this 'alleged' conversion - or whatever name is attached to it, as nothing more than a look into the future - that is, the Blair financial one (does anything else really matter to this partnership?).

As it seems they will receive a great bulk of their 'donations' from his lecture tours to the 'gullible' American population (surely we’ve heard enough from him!!) - mostly I understand, of the Roman Catholic persuasion (American style naturally!!) it would appear to be a good personal 'Political' decision (maybe his first!) - and nothing more.

It’s the only way Politicians think nowadays - because as we have seen, and are still seeing such behaviour by them - even now, in fact it may well be considered the thing they do best!

This Blair move is perhaps the best of all, and the most blatant one yet, as his 'forte' seemed always, and probably still is - to fool the people that are currently involved in his / their plans of the moment, in order to achieve the result required - a bit like the EU set up!

Currently, from what I read, personal financial disaster is probably looming for the Blairs, and, as one would imagine it is 'Top of the Order of the Day!' and it is sure to be at the forefront of their plans!

Not only that, 'conversion' does have one other great advantage - it seems a nice and easy way to have all his sins washed away - or at least rinsed - in a fashion, and a clean sheet approved as appropriate, and essential for the ‘current job in hand’, by those with the 'heavenly' authority!
75

Pax V,

24/12/2007 15:52:09
Alberto, 85

I think you're applying your low morals, materialistism and hypocrisy to Tony Blair.

I have seen nothing to suggest Tony is converting to the one true faith for anything other than noble reasons.
76

Pax V,

24/12/2007 15:53:30
Media 1, 84

Surely it's better to post on topics you have some knowledge of?

Your #84 exposes only your ignorance of the topic. You'd have been better remaining silent.
77

Pax V,

24/12/2007 15:54:56
Yoric, 83

War Criminal, eh?

Who decided that, and when? Was it reported on the BBC?

More la la land nonsense....
78

Pax V,

24/12/2007 15:58:43
JG, 80

Does this intolerance extend to concern re Gordon Broon deferring to his Church in Edinburgh?

And were you concerned that Maggie or John Major might defer to Anglican leadership?

Just wanting to understand the boundaries of your intolerance.....if there are any.
79

Pax V,

24/12/2007 16:02:25
Stoo, 79

Surely it's the INTOLERANCE that causes the bother, Stoo?

If I believe in JC.....then what's it to you, pal?
80

King Billy,

Boyne Wattir 24/12/2007 16:02:56
It is impossible for a Catholic to be Prime Minister as he/she will place his/her religion before their country. My old dad once said, if a Catholic has to choose between fighting and dieing for their religion or their country, they will ALWAYS choose their religion.

Their religion will always be first and that is totally contrary to the democratic process.
81

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 24/12/2007 16:04:37
It's nobody's business, except Tony Blair's?

What was it Samuel Johnston said:

"The Scots common people are a little race with
pygmy intellects. Inbred, parochial, self-righteous, religious bigots! They are now obssessed with the Presbyterian form of bleak worship, and yet only a few years ago they were amongst the most devout Romanists in the Catholic world. Since the Reformation, the Scots are so parsimonious, that congregations still drink out of the same communion cup, and do not realise that they are two sides of the same religious coin!"
82

Pax V,

24/12/2007 16:19:44
Billy, 91

Like many others, Billy, your dad was teaching you to be an anti Catholic bigot. Bigotry is taught at home, by bigots like yer da.
83

Pax V,

24/12/2007 16:21:38
Billy, 91

Let's exercise your flawed "logic" a wee bit, Billy.

Gordon Broon is a son of the Manse.

Does that prevent him from being a good PM?
84

Stoo,

24/12/2007 16:21:42
"Surely it's the INTOLERANCE that causes the bother, Stoo?"

Indeed and your intolerance is clear to all.

"If I believe in JC.....then what's it to you, pal?"

Nothing.

"What was it Samuel Johnston said:"

Cue English bigotry at its worst.
85

Pax V,

24/12/2007 16:22:42
Lachie, 92

Good quote. Highly entertaining.....and more than a morsel of truth in it!
86

Pax V,

24/12/2007 16:23:59
Stoo, 95

If MY intolerance is clear, can you provide an example? Just ONE?

87

Pax V,

24/12/2007 16:29:28
Stoo, 95

Just had a quick look back at your "performance" here. It's pretty disgusting, Stoo. Lots of good examples of INTOLERANCE from you, Stoo.

Hang yer head in shame, Stoo. It's time our beautiful wee country climbed out of those sewers and embraced civilisation. Intolerant neanderthals like you shame Scotland.
88

Stoo,

24/12/2007 16:29:59
Your history on this site over many many months.

But a fine one today is your one true faith quote - catlik intolerance at its best.
89

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 16:31:10
Pax V if your daughther got skipped up by an Isslamic school pal would you accept it if she wanted to bring it up under the Islamic faith??/
90

Pax V,

24/12/2007 16:36:49
Stoo, 99

ONE example of my alleged intolerance? No?

Just sad to see you're unwilling to allow me MY OPINION that my Church is the "one true faith".

Were I trying to impose that on others - THAT would be intolerance - but I'm not.

Live and let live, Stoo - STOP THE BIGOTRY PLEASE, STOO - FOR SCOTLAND'S SAKE.
91

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 16:38:19
#89 Pax
Read what Anne Widdecombe was quoted as saying in this article. Looks like a person is only entitled to his own opinion as long as he's not a member of "The Church", then he has to look up what the Pope thinks. I'm not at all intolerant - you go to whatever church you like - I didn't vote for it though and have no interest in what the head of such a misogynistic organisation has to say.
92

Pax V,

24/12/2007 16:38:59
Ross F, 100

My daughter is 8, Ross....

Anyway....if in 15 years time she wants to bring up her child as an Islamic, then that of course is her prerogative.

How about YOUR dauighter bringing up a child as a Catholic?
93

Pax V,

24/12/2007 16:44:54
JG, 102

Sorry to put the truth in front of your post, JG:

I'm a devout Catholic.

I have my own opinions.

The Church is my moral compass.

I am not its servant.

Generally guys...you're just looking for justifications for you sundry bigotries.
94

Pax V,

24/12/2007 16:45:43
Still struggling, Stoo?

Not even ONE example?

Then WHY make such a STUPID comment?
95

Stoo,

24/12/2007 16:48:26
I gave you an example bigot, isnt it about time you were out being a good xian instead of spreading your hatred here?
96

WL,

livingston 24/12/2007 16:48:38
I don't think that Tony Blair is the first Anglican to Catholicism. So why all this V.I.P. treatment?
97

Mary of Argyll,

Bathgate 24/12/2007 16:53:01
Re. Comment 15. Well said. I agree and only wish I could have been a fly on the wall while Tony was making his confession. I doubt he knew the exact amount of innocent life lost in Irac that he's responsible for, but I'm sure his Maker will - I can only hope that the purgatory he is heading for will adequately reflect his crimes.
98

Pax V,

24/12/2007 16:53:57
But Stoo, you didnt give me ANY example.

I'm ENTITLED to my view - that Catholicism is the one true faith. YOUR efforts to suppress views I'm ENTITLED to hold is a good example of YOUR intolerance. Shame on you, stoo.

STOP THE BIGOTRY, PLEASE, STOO - FOR SCOTLAND'S SAKE.
99

dme,

UNITED STATES 24/12/2007 16:54:26
*Please enter your comment* i'm cfrom the united states and i am a practicing catholic and i do believe the pope is infallable in matters of faith and morals, and i believe that he is the successor to st. peter. the . as for anyone saying that tony blair could not be effective in parliment as a catholic or in any position in politics that is ludicrous! people here in the united states were afraid to vote for president kennedy in the 60's because they thought he would defer to the pope! how absurb! anyway i think it is great he is now a catholic god bless him, and my next and last thought is i never realized how secular england is. any way, i will pray for all of you and i hope all of you have a very merry christmas and a happy new year.
100

Pax V,

24/12/2007 16:56:34
Mary, 108

Another ignorance fed comment re the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession)

Mary, on topics you know little about, it's usually best to remain silent.
101

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 24/12/2007 16:56:52
Mary of Bathgate just as the catholic church forgave the sins of the IRA they surley must forgive Tony or does your bigotry only seyt out for those you dont like
102

Stoo,

24/12/2007 16:57:56
How am I suppressing your ramblings? I am pointing out it's a fine example of intolerance.

Now, what would JC be doing tonight on Xmas Eve? Being a good xian or spreading bile on this site?
103

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 16:58:38
110 remind me what ever happened to Kennedy, wass there not a grassy knoll that fixed the "problem" of him deferring to Rome????
104

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:00:14
WL, 107

I think it's because he's a former UK PM, and a man recognised throughout most of the world.

I think the real issue here is why our civilised society was unable to tolerate a Catholic as PM. That's sad.
105

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:00:56
Ross 114

A bit too cryptic for me...

Tell us more.
106

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:03:40
Stoo, 113

Still NO examples then? Not even one?

Then why say something so stupid?

If I want to believe God has three green legs and lives at the bottom of my garden - then that's MY prerogative, Stoo. I'll believe what I want - you mind yer own €uckin business.
107

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 17:03:48
Pax re your daughter marrying whom she wants ......... I think you are being economocal with the truth ....... you woul dlet her be dammed in the hot place before trying to persuade her to stay with the "one true faith" (sic)
108

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 17:04:56
117 bnow you are showing your true colours Pax V naughty sweary word take ten Heil Mary's
109

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:05:39
Ross, 112

Tell us more about the Church forgiving the sins of the IRA, Ross.

Is this "real life" stuff....or just more silly billy nonsense? Maybe you could provide some links?
110

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 17:06:12
Kennedy was given a lead implant to the frontal lobe by a sniper ......... end of catholic president Kennedy ........ clear now
111

Stoo,

24/12/2007 17:06:16
"I think the real issue here is why our civilised society was unable to tolerate a Catholic as PM. That's sad. "

That issue is raise by you and your fellow bigots, it has nothing to do with reality.
112

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:06:42
Ross, 119

I get angry with bigots, Ross.

Is that a sin?
113

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 17:08:55
120 Pax

In my view there is only one way to have sins forgiven through Jesus.

but Catholic priests in Belfast gave forgivness to bombers and murderers beloning to the IRA.

I do not believe it is up to a priest working for the Anti-Christ (true meaning not the derogatory one) to give forgivness
114

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:08:55
Stoo, 122

Decent people here raised the issue, and righly so.

It's a reality that filth like you need to confront.

Even in 2007, parts of our country are openly anti Catholic. Example: the Monarchy.

STOP THE BIGOTRY, STOO.
115

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:09:41
Ross, 124

Let me ask you again, Ross. Tell us more about the Church forgiving the sins of the IRA, Ross.

Is this "real life" stuff....or just more silly billy nonsense? Maybe you could provide some links?
116

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 17:10:17
Pax 118 awaits answer ........... daughter in hot place with your blessing or not???
117

Stoo,

24/12/2007 17:10:25
"Tell us more about the Church forgiving the sins of the IRA, Ross"

If they go to confession is that not what happens?
118

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:11:13
Ross F, 121

Yep, I thought that's what you meant....but then I didnt think anyone could stoop that low. You proved me wrong. You must be very proud........and sick.
119

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 17:11:14
118 Pax v i answered your q
120

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:12:15
Stoo, 128

Let's see what Ross has got to say. He seems to have lots of information.

I guess it's silly billy nonsense....but let's see if he can substantiate.
121

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 17:12:59
You judge Pax V I did not say i approved or condoned the assasination of Kennedy indeed I think it was a horrific crime against a great man ........ so please ask before you judge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
122

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:13:34
Ross, 118

If you will not accept my answer, why ask me the question in the first place?

On what basis do you insist that you know MY OPINIONS better than ME?
123

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 17:13:53
118 Pax V daughter in H*** with the blessing and support of daddy??
124

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 17:15:12
133 obviously on the way you insist you know my opinions (eg Kennedy)
125

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:15:18
Ross, 132

Oh, I know EXACTLY what you said.....I just didnt think anyone could stoop to those depths.

A bit like the Stairway 13, Neil Simpson \ Ian Durrant chants ----- decent people just dont.
126

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:15:58
Ross, 135

Nope, my comment is based on what YOU posted.
127

Stoo,

24/12/2007 17:16:29
"It's a reality that filth like you need to confront. "

You really a wonderful example of gawd bothering bigots.
128

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 17:16:41
Pax V

If A bomber goes to the Priest in confession and says he is really sorry and asks forgiveness, can the Priest give it??
129

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:17:37
Ross, 134

Just show me where I said that I would BLESS and SUPPORT?

You are LYING.
130

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 17:17:48
137 you judged that I approved of Kennedy's assasination ............ mistake ....... I forgive you
131

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:18:52
Ross, 139

You tell me.

You have had plenty to say on the topic - it's a bit late for a fact find.

132

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:19:39
Ross, 141

Nope, I didnt judge that at all. I condemned you for what you actually wrote.
133

King Billy,

Boyne Wattir 24/12/2007 17:19:41
93 Pax V, I take it by your intolerant rant, yours is the ONLY way and anyone who critisices is a bigot. Me Da? Me Da? to be sure now what is dat to be sure to be sure. My dad was voicing an opinion with the right to do so and which he fought in WWII for.

This is what happens with intolerant people like you. You are the bigot, your kind are the equivalent of the Taliban. NEVER question US as we are the true faith. We are right and you are all wrong is your attitude, you never (for 1 second) even consider you MIGT, JUST MIGHT be wrong. Your kind would be bulldozing buildings onto gays, burning wh0res for getting pregnant outside marriage, burning people as witches, and re introduce the Spanish Inqusition to castrate anyone for DARING to question?

That is why me dad encouraged me to question ANYTHING & ANYONE.
134

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 17:21:03
I did not say you would Bless and support I was asking if you would Bless and support a marraige between your daughter and someone of Islamic faith knowing that your grandchildren would be brought up in the Muslaim faith, well very clear question would you??
135

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:21:23
Stoo, 138

My christianity doesnt prevent me from telling bigoted scvm exactly what I think of them.

You're imagining a pacifist St Francis character - I'm not. Quite frankly, I'd like to kick your erse, bigot.
136

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 17:22:00
Pax old bean, I don't have to justify myself to you at all and I don't have to look to the aforesaid befrocked misogynists for a "moral compass" I actually have enough common sense and intelligence to make these kinds of decisions for myself.
137

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:22:35
Ross, 145

Are you asking questions, or answering them, or both?
138

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:23:27
JG, 147

Great - then what's your problem?

Cos I dont have to justify myself to you either!
139

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:24:22
Billy, 144

Then explain WHY your father passed his bigoted message to you.
140

Stoo,

24/12/2007 17:24:54
"I'd like to kick your erse, bigot."

At last his true feelings have surfaced.

Oh dear.
141

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:25:06
Stoo,

STILL.....NO example?

Shame on you.
142

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:25:56
Stoo, 151

Yep, my contempt for bigoted scvm knows few limits.

It's similar for Nazis, racists, etc etc.
143

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 17:27:06
148

These two questions for Pax V

If your daughter married a Muslim and had children by him and they were to be raised as Muslim, would you give her your Blessing and ful approval.

In your faith ("the only true faith") what would in the Catholic Churchs beliefs happen to your grandchildren and daughther when they passed if they were full adherants and believers in the Musilm faith

144

Calum Crubag,

24/12/2007 17:29:54
Sgudal a th'ann. Death to religion.
http://radgedug.blogspot.com/
145

King Billy,

The River Boyne 24/12/2007 17:30:21
Yeah yeah yeah, heard it all before, when you can't think of a logical response, just call them bigots.

Still carrying the big chip on the shoulder PAX V, eh.

Just try and get your head round it, some people think differently from you.

146

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:31:32
But Billy, you took the unusual step of coming here and telling all of us about the bigotry your fatyher passed to you!!

Bizarrely, you're now doing denial!!!

Make yer mind up, pal!!!
147

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:32:08
Ross, 154

Great stuff...

So...are you asking, answering, or both?
148

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 17:34:00
I don't have a problem. I just don't want elected politicians in my country making decisions on my behalf having previously consulted the opinion of the Pope. As I said before, his stance on everything is of no interest to me and our politicians should make up their own minds.
149

King Billy,

The River Boyne 24/12/2007 17:34:51
Still can't come up with a response eh?

Bizarrely you continue your denial!
150

Ross Fyffe,

Questions for Pax V 24/12/2007 17:35:47
Pax V sorry I will be clearer

These are two questions not answers to questions but questions asking for answers

Pax V If your daughter married a Muslim and had children by him and they were to be raised as Muslim, would you give her your Blessing and ful approval.

Pax V in your faith ("the only true faith") what would in the Catholic Churchs beliefs happen to your grandchildren and daughther when they passed if they were full adherants and believers in the Musilm faith
151

King Billy,

The River Boyne 24/12/2007 17:37:07
Correct JG, nothing to do with religion. But PAX V can't understand we can live without dictat from Rome
152

JG,

FIfe 24/12/2007 17:43:44
#162 King Billy
That's the whole point - Pax can worship whoever he wants, however he wants but religion should have nothing to do with politics.
153

yellow,

Denny 24/12/2007 17:43:56
Some people on this forum keep on making references to an alliance between the Pope, Musollini and Hitler. Correct me if I'm wrong but were there not thousands of Catholic priests murdered in Germany at the time of these 2 horrible dictators. This seems an unlikely alliance indeed and i question the truthfulness of these comments. At the same time thousands more catholic priests were being murdered in Spain by fascists on both sides of that conflict. My experience of christian people ( priests, vicars, laymen, nuns ) have been of people dedicating their lives to the sick and the poor and really without these people care institutions all over the globe would collapse. For those small minded, bigoted people out there please focus on the real christians and not some war advocating, pro-abortionist
154

King Billy,

The River Boyne 24/12/2007 17:44:35
Well said JG Fife
155

King Billy,

The River Boyne 24/12/2007 17:48:34
Nice thoughts Yellow, BUT! no, that is why the pope apologised to the Jewish people, because just like the peadophilic priests abusing kids, they knew also about The Final Solution and did nothing and condemned nothing while (as PAX V calls it) bigots like my dad were going into places like Buchenwald to liberate these poor unfortunate people. SO NO they ALL did not.
156

King Billy,

The River Boyne 24/12/2007 17:49:47
BUT to clarify, the majority were good honourable and decent men who did.
157

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:51:18
JG, 159

Funnily enough...I dont want elected Politicians consulting the Pope either, JG.

How bizarre, JG. WHO says ANYONE was gonna consult with the Pope?

JG, this is the 21st century!!! Hello!!
158

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:52:37
JG, 163

I have a strange feeling we're violently agreeing!

And that YOU have a pathalogical fear of something that will not happen.
159

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:53:06
Billy, 162

More bigotry....

Shame on you.
160

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:54:03
Ross, 161

Asking...answering...or both?

Please clarify.
161

King Billy,

The River Boyne 24/12/2007 17:54:21
Pax V, now you are being reasonable, what we are saying is that it is icompatible with the teachings of the catholic church and to vote for gay rights (eg)

So the dictat of Rome is influencing your position (which it should NOT)
162

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:55:09
Billy 167

Not a clue who you're talking to....or about what.

Provide a name and post # at the start of your post.
163

Ross Fyffe,

Pax V you responed to 162 & 163 now 161?? 24/12/2007 17:56:13
Pax V sorry I will be clearer

These are two questions not answers to questions but questions asking for answers

Pax V If your daughter married a Muslim and had children by him and they were to be raised as Muslim, would you give her your Blessing and full approval?

Pax V in your faith ("the only true faith") what would in the Catholic Churchs beliefs happen to your grandchildren and daughther when they passed if they were full adherants and believers in the Musilm faith?
164

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:56:29
Billy, 172

My position has not changed. Neither has Tony Blairs.

YOU are beginning to see the error of your misunderstanding.

Some of your mates here havent got it yet.
165

King Billy,

The River Boyne 24/12/2007 17:56:48
See 166 to YELLOW
166

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:56:56
Ross, 174

You havent answered my question.

Answer, please.

167

Pax V,

24/12/2007 17:58:04
Let me be clearer for YOU, Ross.

You ASK many things.

But you rarely answer.

Before we progress, are you willing\able to particiapte in a debate where you ANSWER questions?
168

Ross Fyffe,

re 171 24/12/2007 17:59:19
Pax when a sentence ends with a ? it is a question I amd asking you Pax V two questions.

The first question I ask seeking your answer is the following

Pax V If your daughter married a Muslim and had children by him and they were to be raised as Muslim, would you give her your Blessing and full approval?

The second question I am seeking your answer is the following

Pax V in your faith ("the only true faith") what would in the Catholic Churchs beliefs happen to your grandchildren and daughther when they passed if they were full adherants and believers in the Musilm faith?


169

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:00:41
Billy, 172

I dont believe in gay rights. I believe in fairness for homosexuals. I despise homophobes.

We all have a moral compass. Much of mine is sourced in Christianity. I believe the current PM has a VERY similar moral compass.

Now, what's YOUR problem?
170

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:01:24
Ross, 180

Oh, I see your questions, Ross, but I dont see your ANSWERS.

171

King Billy,

The River Boyne 24/12/2007 18:01:31
Pax V answer Ross Fyffe.
172

Ross Fyffe,

awiting Pax V answers 24/12/2007 18:01:52
After you answer my questions Pax V you may ask me some
173

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:02:24
Gordon, 179

Nope....biggest religion: Christianity.

Biggest faith: Catholicism.
174

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:02:50
Ross, 185

How very kind. Thank you.
175

yellow,

Denny 24/12/2007 18:03:04
King Billy. American & UK politicians have been urged for years to apologise for their 'amnesia' with regards to their knowledge of the final solution. The whole world knew what was happening to the jews but did nothing to directly intervene. This was probably because we were facing the most evil movement in our history. That's the nazi's by the way not the Catholic Church. The point I was making was how could the Catholic Church be friends with the Nazi's when they were murdering Catholic priests in germany & beyond before and after the start of WW2. Catholic priests abusing kids has done a lot to harm the amazing work the church does in helping the sick and poor but only somebody living an extrememly sheltered existence cannot see the practical good by the church all over the world???
176

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 18:03:39
182 I have not given answers Pax V I have asked two questions, these questions are to seek answers.

177

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:03:40
Bob, 184

You back AGAIN telling us this is a non story, Bob?

Surely, if it was a non story...you would be uninterested?
178

King Billy,

The River Boyne 24/12/2007 18:03:53
PAX V ANSWER ROSS
179

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:04:30
Ross, 189

Yep, well done.

you've ASKED lots of questions...but few answers.
180

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:04:47
Billy, 191

You answer him.
181

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 18:04:48
187 My pleasure, I now await your answers as do many reading this post ...........
182

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:05:30
Ross, 194

Great stuff. Well done.

Start answering now.

183

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:06:56
Ross,

See #126 at 17:09.

Answers, please. Links please.
184

Ross Fyffe,

The only way to learn is to ask questions 24/12/2007 18:07:22
Pax V I am seeking answers to these questions will you answer them or are you going to keep putting off an answer?

The first question I ask seeking your answer is the following

Pax V If your daughter married a Muslim and had children by him and they were to be raised as Muslim, would you give her your Blessing and full approval?

The second question I am seeking your answer is the following

Pax V in your faith ("the only true faith") what would in the Catholic Churchs beliefs happen to your grandchildren and daughther when they passed if they were full adherants and believers in the Musilm faith
185

King Billy,

The River Boyne 24/12/2007 18:08:56
188 Yellow.

Yes, in the main that is correct and I applaude your statements. They all knew.

I also refer you to my additional statement in 167

"BUT to clarify, the majority were good honourable and decent men who did."

186

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:09:49
Ross, 197

Let me know if\when you're able to enter adult debate.

It's about answering questions too....
187

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:11:54
Ross, 199

If you look closely...you'll see that Yellow and Billy are entering what's called a "dialogue".

They engage. They give and take. They ask and answer. It's good. Then BOTH parties get something from it. Are you able to try it?
188

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 18:13:41
Go on then Pax V ask away ask me a clear question ........
189

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:14:02
Gordon, 210

Oh, my Encyclopedia, my son's Guinness Book of Records and various websites say the same.

Your truth aversion aint my problem. Ho hum.
190

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:14:51
Ross, 203

Try #126.
191

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 18:16:19
In answer to 126 I can provide no links,
192

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:17:24
Gordon, 201

This might help you with your problem...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups
193

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:18:13
Ross, 206

Thanks you.

And the other questions in 126?
194

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 18:19:56
It is preconcieved ideas of the Catholic church priests power of forgivness
195

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:21:57
Ross, 209

YOUR preconceived ideas? or reality?

196

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 18:22:31
Mine
197

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:22:42
Gordon, 210

You cared enough to deny it.

You were wrong.

Are you now enlightened?
198

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 18:24:00
Now Pax V so that I don't make any more preconcieved errors could you answer my questions please?
199

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:24:47
Ross, 212

Thank you.

Now, tell us more about "Catholic priests in Belfast gave forgivness to bombers and murderers beloning to the IRA."

What do you know?
How do you know it?
Tell us which Priests?
tell us which bombers and murderers?

200

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:25:56
Ross, 214

No, let's stick with it.

We're getting to the truth now.

Note: I asked these questions at 17:09 and it's now almost 18:30.
201

traps,

South Africa 24/12/2007 18:28:13
http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2007/12/23/tont-blairs-a-catholic-he-wears-a-catholic-hat/

Merry Christmas all
202

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 18:28:39
215

Nothing
hearsay
none named
them all

Now will you help me not make the same mistake about how a Catholic Father would feel about the following I would hate to make any more wrong assumptions so if I am asked in the future I will be better informed so Pax V.

The first question I ask seeking your answer is the following

Pax V if your daughter married a Muslim and had children by him and they were to be raised as Muslim, would you give her your Blessing and full approval?

The second question I am seeking your answer is the following

Pax V in your faith ("the only true faith") what would in the Catholic Churchs beliefs happen to your grandchildren and daughther when they passed if they were full adherants and believers in the Musilm faith?

203

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:32:17
Ross, 218

So...you were talking b0ll0cks?
204

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:34:32
Gordon, 219

Two more basic errors, Gordon.

I'm defending my right to have religious beliefs. Various heathens here liberally attack my faith and I WILL defend it....whether you like it or not.

Tell us more about your claim re Stranraer...letters...etc. Tell us how you reached this bizarre conclusion. Let's have a look and wonfer at your "logic".
205

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 18:37:37
I wasw passing on my opinion to which i am entilted I have remained polite which I will continue to do now will you please answer my questions

The first question I ask seeking your answer is the following

Pax V if your daughter married a Muslim and had children by him and they were to be raised as Muslim, would you give her your Blessing and full approval?

The second question that I am seeking your answer is the following

Pax V in your faith ("the only true faith") what would in the Catholic Churchs beliefs happen to your grandchildren and daughther when they passed if they were full adherants and believers in the Musilm faith?

206

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:41:21
Gordon, 223

A fascinating rant....not at all borne out by the facts.

Sorry, Gordon.....I'm gonna defend my faith....whether you and other intolearnts like it or not!

Heathens....bigots....need I go all PC? I dont think so! I call a spade a spade - if the heathens & bigots dont like it I couldnt give a flying duck. They give it - they must take it too!
207

yellow,

24/12/2007 18:44:03
A question for one and all. Do you think Blair has repented to the Bishop's about his war mongering etc? I think he must have!
2nd question. Will we ever know considering his ongoing career aspirations? 3rd question. Who cares?
208

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:49:29
Ross, 222

You ARE of course entitled to your opinion, Ross, but similarly others are entitled to challenge if you make (apparently) outlandish claims.

#112 - not good.
#114 - disappointing.
Various posts making claims re the Church forgiving IRA bombers\murderers.

I'll ask you again: do you now accept that you were talking b0ll0cks?


209

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:51:44
Gordon, 226

I sense your desperation, Gordon.

WRONG re the biggest Church. Made an erse of yersel there, pal.

Now, you're whingeing about my appropriate use of words like heathen and bigot to describe....err...heathens and bigots!!!

It's funny how sensitive the heathens and bigots can be when they get some of it back!!!!

210

Pax V,

24/12/2007 18:52:42
Yellow, 225

Warmongering?

I wasnt aware of that. Where? When?
211

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 18:58:17
I understand that I was talking from misconstrued views of the Catholic Church now so that I do not have any further such cause for error or views that are wrong as you described can you now answer my questions please?

to save you scrolling up they are.

The first question I ask seeking your answer is the following

Pax V if your daughter married a Muslim and had children by him and they were to be raised as Muslim, would you give her your Blessing and full approval?

The second question that I am seeking your answer is the following

Pax V in your faith ("the only true faith") what would in the Catholic Churchs beliefs happen to your grandchildren and daughther when they passed if they were full adherants and believers in the Musilm faith?



212

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:00:44
Great - thanks Ross (#230)

Now, your two questions.

What have they got to do with the article we're discussing here?
213

Media 1,

cape town 24/12/2007 19:02:46
PAX V #87

Are you thus denying that the popes of Rome dont name their church "the one true church" and the bride of christ? Are you also stating that any organisation representing christ is entitled to worldly possesion by his word?

People who turn to god should be permitted to worship in peace and without interference, and the organisation you protect is not nearly worthy of their patronage. The RC Church, DID sign concordats with Musollini and Hitler and they did murder people who did not comply with their rules. These are undeniable facts, and therefore, anyone who defends this organisation, defends its actions.
Being Catholic is no crime, my parents, my grandparents and most of my family are catholic, and all of them are unbelievable people. I just think they deserve to be represented by an organisation that deserves their patronage, as opposed to one so evil, barbaric and utterly savage.
214

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:04:07
Media 1, 232

Show me this denial!!!
215

yellow,

24/12/2007 19:04:28
229 before the last Iraq invasion chief. He flew all over the world on behalf of Bush to gain support from other world leaders re-Iraq invasion. Not sure if war mongering the best statement to use. Can't remember what he used to gain support in the UK in the house of commons to pass some ill fated vote. But I think the expression 'weapons of mass destruction' was in there somewhere. Just another lie to add to his list of sins for Cardinal whoever.
216

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:04:59
Media 1, 232

The rest of your post was very entertaining. Thanks. LOL!
217

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:06:45
Yellow, 234

Now, you're getting confused!

Was it WARMONGERING or not? Please clarify.

And now you're referring to some "lie"?

What "lie" do you mean?
218

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 19:09:07
we, as in you and I, are discusing or having dialogue on aspects of the Catholic faith, and the errors that some people (such as myself have just admitted to you) make from misinformation and one parties (mine) wish that I do not make similar mistakes in the future so amd seeking the answers to two questions I have as regards the Catholic Faith in the family and feel you as a father in a Catholic family could give me insight to.

again to save you scrolling up my questions are,

The first question I ask seeking your answer is the following

Pax V if your daughter married a Muslim and had children by him and they were to be raised as Muslim, would you give her your Blessing and full approval?

The second question that I am seeking your answer is the following

Pax V in your faith ("the only true faith") what would in the Catholic Churchs beliefs happen to your grandchildren and daughther when they passed if they were full adherants and believers in the Musilm faith?

219

Media 1,

cape town 24/12/2007 19:10:07
Pax V
lmao
Run boy run! hahaha
220

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 19:10:39
Various Pax
The only thing I think we agree on is that you can be member of whatever church you want. That doesn't mean to say that it is the ONLY church, or the RIGHT church. How do you know that I'm not an avid member of the Church of Scotland? Or a "Wee Free"? Or (if I were)that on my side of the fence it would be YOU who was the heathen and the bigot. I'm also well aware that it's the 21st century (and that it's unlikely anyone could pick up a phone and dial direct to the Pope). It was in response to the quote from an MP that I said that - she said Tony Blair had "gone against the teachings of the Church". A henous crime for a clergyman, I'm sure, but when it involves a politician SO WHAT!!
221

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:14:26
Ross, 237

Mmmm....not sure of this, Ross. You made some outlandish claims re my Church which I was driven to expose as nonsense.

Now, you want to broaden this out to some doctrinal scrutiny of Catholicism. Catholicism has had more than its fair share of doctrinal scrutiny on these pages.

As a rule of thumb, I will participate in scrutiny of MY Church to the same extent as other religions\faiths\beliefs are similarly examined.

Let me know when you've made rigorous examinations of ALL other religions\faiths\etc and I'll answer your questions then.
222

yellow,

24/12/2007 19:15:29
media 1. Don't quite understand everything your saying. Think the whole ww2 thing was an impossible situation for the whole of the world..A lot of people were very scared and it seemed that the very real threat of domination by Hitler dictated quite a lot then. But anyway the Catholic Churchor that I feel part of is probably the strongest voice against world poverty and war. As well as that it advocates a lot of good things so yes I defend it
223

yellow,

24/12/2007 19:19:07
236 lie I was referring to was that the weapons of mass destruction that Blair referred to in great detail. Were never found. Perhaps I am getting confused. If Blair was not war mongering what was he doing? Straightforward, non-argumentative repsonse appreciated
224

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:19:35
JG, 239

Again, you're fighting an imaginary adversary!

I believe my Church is RIGHT.....but others will have a similar view of THEIR Church.

I dont belive mine is the ONLY Church.

Suggestion: READ my posts.

225

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:20:56
Yellow, 242

So....WARMONGERING or not?
226

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 19:21:06
Pax V I feel that you have treated me very badly, of ALL the people on this posting I believe I am the ONLY ONE to have conceeded my errors of opinion, now when I ask you to answer some questions to prevent me making further errors you pass me off with an answer such as 240?

227

Media 1,

cape town 24/12/2007 19:22:53
And what about the claim by the popes that they are infallible? What a blasphemous bunch of evil worshipers these barstards in robes are!
Remember Galileo?
Pope Urban VIII threatened an elderly and very ill Galileo with torture if he would not renounce his claim that the Earth revolved around the sun.Declaring that this Scientific proof was contrary to the Vatican message, the pope had Galileo on his knees, in fear for his life, recanting of this heresy before the Holy Office of the Inqusition. The geocentrc view remained official Catholic dogma for centuries, with seemingly infallible pope after infallible pope affirming that the Earth was the centre of the universe and that all the planets, the stars and the sun revolved around it.
It was only in 1992, yes thats right! 1992, that the Vatican after a 14 month study declared that Galileo had been right!
If any person of sane mind can defend this institution, then they must excuse this institution for all its wrongdoing. They must also accept that to this day, the modern popes do not remove the names of those who murdered innocent people from their vicars of christ list. They must also accept that the name of the pope who singned the concardat with Musollini and Hitler is STILL an honoured pope on the vicars of christ list!
If this was a political party, it would be the most hated and ridiculed party in the world. AND RIGHTLY SO
228

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:23:12
Yellow, 242

TB did say there were WMDs.

WMDs were never found.

Does that make him a liar? No.

Warmongering? No.

I reckon TB acted in good faith. I supported him at the time....in good faith.

They say hindsight is 20\20. I regret the war....and I guess TB does too.
229

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

24/12/2007 19:25:57
In relation to this, and other, contentious issues shall we just pause and remind ourselves that this is Christmas Eve, or even Christmas depending on where you live, and reflect on the traditional message of this particular festival?

MERRY CHRISTMAS, EVERYONE!
230

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:26:44
Media 1, 246

I see you're still strutting your funky anti Catholic bigotry stuff!

Doesnt really bother me.....I guess such bigotry is still qwuite common amongst your sort...but I just wished you could attack the Church in fact rather than in silly billy fantasy.

Let's have a wee bit of fun to expose your ignorance, Media: tell us more about the boundaries of the Churches teaching re Papal infallibility.
231

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 19:26:44
#243 Pax
Suggestion - read your own posts - try #101 for example! I know you're aware that "your" church isn't the only one; I'm sure you could rattle off loads of other faiths; it's the idea that some old guy in fancy dress, elected as leader by more old guys in fancy dress thinks that he's some infalable sage and that so many people listen to him!!
232

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:27:56
Major, 248

For me, Major, Christmas would be much merrier if I lived in a country where my Christianity was tolerated.
233

yellow,

24/12/2007 19:28:16
Ok Pax V. I will go for warmongering. Allow me the courtesy of a straight answer and tell me what you would call it or indeed the lie I was referring to?

p.s communication is great

234

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:29:15
JG, 250

Yet again....JG.....you traipse out uninformed and ignorant silly billy nonsense.

It's kinda sad.

Get educated, JG.
235

Media 1,

cape town 24/12/2007 19:29:42
Yellow

Can I ask you this then!
Do you support the fact that your church was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people who did not buy into the Catholic dogma?
Do you excuse the modern church for NOT removing the names of some of the most dispicable popes in history?
Do you excuse them for what they did to Galileo?
Do you excuse them for signing concordats with Hitler?
Do you excuse them for owning billions upon billions upon billions of worldy possesions whilst asking others to make donations?
Do you excuse them for their views on homosexuality?
Do you excuse them for their views on contraception?
Do you excuse them for their views on confession?

That is 8 questions I think. Just give me yes or no
236

yellow,

24/12/2007 19:29:56
HERE HERE 248. MERRY XMAS EVERYONE WHEREVER IF YOU ARE!
237

Ross Fyffe,

General question to all posters 24/12/2007 19:31:35
The first question I ask seeking an answer for is the following

If a daughter brought up in the Catholic faith married a Muslim and had children by him and they were to be raised as Muslim, would her Catholic father be permitted by the Catholic church to give her his full Blessing and full approval?

The second question that I am seeking an to answer is the following

In the catholic Faith (which I am led to believe is "the only true faith") what would, in the Catholic Churchs beliefs, happen to the grandchildren and said daughther when they passed if they were full adherants and believers in the Musilm faith?
238

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 19:32:25
#251 Pax
God, what a miserable person you are! Your Christianity IS tolerated in this country. I presume you'll be off to midnight mass and that no-one will bother you. Your chapel will still be there in the morning and you'll be singing pretty much the same hymns as all of us "heathens". Doesn't sound too much like persecution to me!
239

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:32:40
Yellow, 252

You're entitled to your view, Y. I'll disagree.

TB believed there was a significant threat to UK and others from Iraq based WMD and that thousands of ordinary innocents were being butchered by the cruel oppressor. To him - and to Parliament - and to many other civilised nations, defensive action to stop the bloodshed and protect UK and others was the right thing to do.
240

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:34:19
JG, 257

Tolerated?

--- Name the last Catholic Monarch.
--- Why was TB wary of converting to his chosen religion whilst PM?
--- Why did you refer to my place of worship as a "chapel"?
241

Media 1,

cape town 24/12/2007 19:34:55
PAX V

So its bigoted of me to ridicule the RC Church for signing concordats with Hitler? lol ok then

Its bigoted of me to think that Galileo should have been treated with more respect by an organisation who supposedly believes in truth?

Its bigotted of me to believe that Pius III should not have murdered 60 000 people in one day and then called it the crowning moment of his papacy?

You see Pax! You call me bigoted, back then you would have called me a protester and had me killed!! Times change, but some organisations and their people remain the same!
If attacking a beast like the Catholic church makes me a bigot, then I am gladly a BIGOT!
242

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:35:30
Media 1, 254

What's your view of the Church of Scotland?
243

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 19:37:05
#253 Pax
Why do you think I'm silly? Because I don't go along with everything you say? And it IS a crowd of old men who elect a Pope (not much sign of equality in THAT process, eh Pax?). It's a good way of proving yourself right though; ignore everyone with a different opinion to you and don't listen to what the girlies say at all!
244

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:37:23
Media 1, 260

I see you're describing yourself as a bigot.

Fair enough - I agree.

Now, what's your view of the Church of Scotland?
245

Media 1,

CAPE TOWN 24/12/2007 19:38:01
By the way PAX V

If you or any other Catholic is against but one Catholic law, then you are what is known as a protestant!
If not, then you must agree with their views on homosexuality, contraception and abortion! You either take the faith in its entirety, or you protest some of its laws, thus becomming a protestant/
246

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 19:38:33
Pax V you are certainally having a dialogue now .......... pity you felt you could not tell me your answers to my questions
247

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:39:00
JG, 262

You're not reading my posts, JG.

Disagreement is healthy and I welcome it.

248

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 19:39:51
GOOD ONE MEDIA 1 excellent point, and that I believe is why he refuses to answer my questions ...........
249

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:40:09
Ross, 265

Yep, I was willing to have a dialogue with you....and still am.

Let me know when you've finished with the others.
250

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 19:40:24
#259 Pax
What, do you want to be the king now?

To answer your questions though

Mary, Queen of Scots
You'd have to ask him that.
Because a Catholic friend of mine always talks about going to the chapel.

Is that O.K. with you?
251

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:41:11
Media 1, 264

If you say so, son.

BTW, what's your view of the Church of Scotland?
252

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:42:20
JG, 269

Pretty poor answers, JG.

253

Media 1,

cape town 24/12/2007 19:42:58
PAX V

Most churches have chequered pasts! Its just that the one in question is the most barbaric on Earth!!
I just cannot bring myself to defend any organisation with a past that includes the murder of innocent people, concordats with people like Hitler, and other not so pleasant things.....I seek guidance in other ways, I cannot commit myself to worshipping such barbaric people, I just cant.
254

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:43:36
Media1

I've asked a few times for your views on the Church of Scotland?

You seem strangely reticent.

You have sooooooooooo much to say about the Catholic Church.
255

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 19:44:17
#271 Pax

Why?

They're also correct!
256

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:44:20
Media1,272

Great stuff...

So...what's your view of The Church of Scotland?
257

yellow,

24/12/2007 19:44:31
Hy Media 1

Yes and no is impossible here because your going back hundreds if not thousands of years. To be honest the catholic Church to me is the one here and now. I think it is the only strong voice against world poverty and obsessive materialism and greed amongst many of those in power today. furthermore it does great work to help the poorest and sickest in the world. Yes I agree with most of our attitudes towards different issues. But there are some I disagree with. However I'm not going to get into a thealogical debate with you cause I'm not smart enough and I need to wrap my xmas presents! If individuals in the Catholic Church do bad then that does not make the whole organisation bad. I know first hand dozens of people who have given everything to helping other people chief.
So listen I'm happy being a catholic.
Have a lovely xmas or vacation!
258

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 19:44:44
Pax V you are having dialogue with many at once do you not think I am capable of the same?

you refused to answer my questions as you know full well the conditions of your replying to my questions is impossible to fullfill, so I am afraid you have gone down in my estimations, I answered your questions, I admitted my errors yet you refused (by dint of what I have already said here) to answer my questions
259

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:47:07
JG, 274

--- Why no Catholic Monarch for so long?
--- Why does current legislation exclude Catholics from the Monarchy?
--- Why must OUR political representatives swera an Oath of Allegiance to a Monarch that actively discriminates against us?
--- Your TB answer is bvllsh!t.
--- Your buddy may well say that....but we BOTH know the reason MY Church is oft described as a chapel.
260

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:48:36
Ross, 277

Going down in your estimations is probably a good thing, Ross.

You want a thorough examination of ONLY my Church.

Ask yourself WHY you want to do that.

Dont tell me the answer - tell YOURSELF the truth.
261

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:50:01
But Ross....you're in good company!!

Media wants to rant & rave about the Church JC started.....but he is reluctant to comment on John Knox's Church!!!
262

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 19:51:57
#278 Pax

It's a historical fact - nothing I can do about it.
It's a historical fact.
They don't have to.
I have no idea what was in Tony Blair's head - we didn't do clairvoyancy at my school.
And I truly have no idea what your talking about. My friend always said it a jocular fashion - maybe it's because it's not a very big building he attends?
263

Ross Fyffe,

Use of funds from catholic donations 24/12/2007 19:52:00
Yellow ++++++++++

Here is how millions of $ was spent from donations, many cases are being dealt with and are ongoing most are settled on the court steps, but to be fair not just the Catholic priests other faiths involved as well

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE4D71231F934A15753C1A96E948260

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5049098
264

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 19:55:42
Pax V you can twist about how you will, you refused to answer my questions EVEN THOUGH I ADMITTED I WAS WRONG, NO OTHER POSTER HERE HAS DONE SO TO YOU TODAY.

So Basically what I take form this is you will only wordsmith your way round things you want to raise and not deal with difficult questions when they are posed to you.

265

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:55:44
JG, 281

We're not debating whether YOU can DO anything about it. We're discussing your claim Brityain tolerates Catholics.

Look again at my list....Britain discriminates against Catholics.

Not so long ago we had a UK Police Force killing innocent CATHOLICS for fun with little\no accountability.
266

Pax V,

24/12/2007 19:57:24
Ross, 283

I'm grateful you were able to admit you were talking b0ll0cks, Ross, and few here admit it.....even when i expose them.

I will subject my faith to your scrutiny - the same scrutiny as other faiths. Seems fair to me!
267

Pax V,

24/12/2007 20:00:21
Ross, 282

A couple of intesresting links - again re my Church.

Any similar links re other Churches?

Anything on The Church of Scotland?
268

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 20:01:48
#284 Pax
I take you're talking about Ireland?

And I don't think the Queen "actively discriminates" against anybody. After Henry VIII English monarchs were protestants - so is the Queen. What do you suggest she does about that?
269

yellow,

24/12/2007 20:02:04
282 already commented on child abuse to King Billy. Very damaging. An abuse of trust by anyone is terrible but when it's a priest. Shocking!!See above. Don't restrict the whole child abuse to faith groups though. Police, teachers & scout leaders all at it 2. apparently close family members are the worst culprits?!
270

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 20:04:17
#288 yellow
Unfortunately you're right on with that! Child abuse knows no boundaries.
271

Pax V,

24/12/2007 20:04:48
JG, 287

You tell me, JG!

Fact: under current legislation, the Monarchy discriminates against Catholics (errr...recall you argued we are tolerated?)

Now, Betty Battenburg has been sitting on her throne for over 50 years. Tell me what she has done about this State bigotry?
272

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 20:05:34
Pax V please note and I quote "but to be fair not just the Catholic priests other faiths involved as well"

The point I was making was to someone who said the Catholic Church was and I quote Yellow here " ........furthermore it does great work to help the poorest and sickest in the world."

So I DID not say it was just Catholics but the context of the dialogue I was having with Yellow was based on what they said about the Catholic Church,

Yes there are cases of child abuse by faith leaders in all Churches. I do not and did not intend to imply otherwise.


273

Pax V,

24/12/2007 20:06:28
288\289

Yep, it's endemic and appalling.

I'm just sickened that certain sickos would lead us to believe is some sort of Priestly monopoly....with links for only Priest paedo.
274

Pax V,

24/12/2007 20:07:37
Ross, 291

Do you have any links that show paedo amongst other faiths? Other groups? Or do you only do links to Priest Paedo stuff?
275

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 20:07:41
#290 Pax
How's that then, Pax? I haven't heard of the Queen banishing people recently - or stopping them from going anywhere or doing anything. It's not her fault she's C of E - just as it's not yours that you are a Catholic. What would you like her to do?
276

Pax V,

24/12/2007 20:10:38
JG, 287

Yep, Ireland....particularly the North in the last 40 years.

--- Catholics represent c. 40% of population in NI.
--- 84% of innocent civilians killed by the RUC were Catholics.

The Brit Army had a bit of fun murdering & maiming INNOCENT CATHOLICS too. Example: Derry 30 Jan 1972.

But we're tolerated....
277

Pax V,

24/12/2007 20:12:32
JG, 294

If she's CoE, it would be nice if she tried a wee bit of Christianity....particularly as a supposed Church leader.

Anti Catholic discrimination is the antithesis of Christianity.

Tell me what steps she has taken to stop it.
278

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 20:12:56
Pax V Did you not pick up the fact that I did not accuse only Catholic Priests, the examples were givne in response to a statement by Yellow.

I freely admit there is sexual deviance in the Church of Scotland


http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2007/12/09/minister-accused-of-sex-attack-in-manse-78057-20224003/
279

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 20:13:36
#295 Pax

Yes, the Ireland situation was a dreadful business. There were a lot of cruel people who killed innocents on BOTH sides.
280

Pax V,

24/12/2007 20:14:54
Ross, 297

Oh, I pick up on all you're saying, Ross. That's why I wont play your sicko game.

You didnt come here and tell fables about any other Church men today...did you? Just lies about MY Church.
281

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 20:16:12
#296 Pax
What? Are you saying that the Queen's not a Christian because she's C of E? I am not aware of the Queen being anti-anything. She's the head of the Church of England - it goes with the job.
282

Pax V,

24/12/2007 20:16:27
JG, 298

Do you condemn the Brit Army & RUC for their penchant for murdering & maiming innocent Catholics......errr....in "tolerant" UK?
283

yellow,

24/12/2007 20:17:47
Pax V. Think your going over the top a bit and taking things out of context. Fair points were being made
284

Pax V,

24/12/2007 20:18:15
JG, 300

You're not reading my posts.....again!

You're saying she's not a Christian - not me.

No, I'm saying she should try a Christian approach to Catholics.

The answer to the question you're frightened of is....she has sat on her throne and done SFA about it.

Now...tell me why.
285

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 20:18:51
#301 Pax

I would condemn anybody for murdering anybody - I don't give a monkey's about their religion.
286

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 20:19:37
Pax
NO, you started it - you tell me what you would like her to do?
287

Pax V,

24/12/2007 20:19:53
Y, 302

You're entitled to your view, Y.

Note Media has done arunner rather than comment on Ch of Scotland?

Note Ross has attcaked ONLY the Catholic Church re Priest forgiving bombers and murderers?
288

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 20:21:43
Pax V You have missed my points on purpose, at least that is what it looks like, I ADMITTED MY ERRORS YET YOU STILL HJOLD THEM AGAINST ME, you refuse to answer my two very simple questions which I tend to think implies that the answers you give would be uncomfortable for you to see in black and white.

For you I will reduce my two questions to just one

Pax V would you give your Blessing to a union between your daughter (when she is old enough) and a Muslim knowing she and her children (your Grandchildren) be total adherants to the Isamic Faith?
289

Ross Fyffe,

spelling correction 24/12/2007 20:22:23
Pax V You have missed my points on purpose, at least that is what it looks like, I ADMITTED MY ERRORS YET YOU STILL HJOLD THEM AGAINST ME, you refuse to answer my two very simple questions which I tend to think implies that the answers you give would be uncomfortable for you to see in black and white.

For you I will reduce my two questions to just one

Pax V would you give your Blessing to a union between your daughter (when she is old enough) and a Muslim knowing she and her children (your Grandchildren) be total adherants to the Islamic Faith?
290

Pax V,

24/12/2007 20:24:34
JG, 305

In her CHRIST-mass speech tomorrow, she should tell the world that she is ashamed that she has sat on her throne and said\done little about State anti ctaholic bigotry. Rooted in 17th century fears it has no place in 21st century Britain....and it's long overdue for reform.....as Britain's 5M Catholics are decent, and entitled to parity.

Had I my way I would stop paying taxes and bring the country to its knees by blocking motorways til this shame is ended.
291

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 20:24:46
306

Note Ross (i.e. me!!) has said to Pax V I was in error, and have done so more than once.

Does anyone else here know hwy he has such difficulty answering my questions??????
292

Pax V,

24/12/2007 20:26:03
Ross, 308

Au contraire....

I am willing to answer questions about MY Church as long as others are subject to similar scrutiny? Fair? No?

You admitted you were talking b0ll0cks only beacuse I exposed you.

293

Pax V,

24/12/2007 20:27:55
Ross, 310

Yep, answers available - on terms previously described.

Let's get out of the habit of scrutinising only ONE set of beliefs. Let's scrutinise all. Now...that's fair....whether it suits you or not.
294

Pax V,

24/12/2007 20:29:42
JG, 304

I asked you a specific question....but you hid like a coward behind the blanket condemnation.

Very revealing.

Do you - or do you not - condemn Catholic murdering Brit Army and RUC?
295

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 20:29:49
#310 Pax
And what steps would she need to take to keep you happy? You would "bring the country to its knees" to achieve what? The Queen can't do anything - she's the head of state, not the head of government.
296

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 20:30:02
Pax V I remain corrected and will not make the same mistake again yet how can I not make new mistakes if i start to preconcieve answers to my questions.

I have no problems if you are scared to write down your answers it only makes me wonder what there is to hide?
297

JG,

Fife 24/12/2007 20:32:02
#313 Pax
What? That I don't like to see ANYBODY being murdered? What a bad person I am!

P.S. Ross is trying to get you answer some of HIS questions
298

Pax V,

24/12/2007 20:33:09
Ross, 315

I've told you repeatedly that I am willing to answer your questions.

Youyr apparent thirst for knowledge and understanding of religious doctrine is thwarted not by me, but by your inability to get answers from other groups.

Oh, BTW....what other groups have you tried to scrutinise?
299

Pax V,

24/12/2007 20:34:19
JG, 316

OK, JG, I see you're unwilling to make the specific condemnation I seek. That's a shame.
300

Pax V,

24/12/2007 20:34:56
JG, 316

I'm willing to answer Ross's questions...

Has he asked YOU about YOUR beliefs yet?
301

Ross Fyffe,

Thesis for thought and possible correction 24/12/2007 20:39:44
So Pax V now that you will not answer my questions I will put forward my thesis, this thesis is open for scrutiny of any constructive kind.

It is however only my view from not havng any prior knowledge.

My thesis is that If a daughter brought up in the Catholic faith married a Muslim and had children by him and they were to be raised as Muslim, her Catholic father would not be permitted by the Catholic church to give her his full Blessing and full approval.

The second part to my thesis is in the Catholic Faith (which I am led to believe is "the only true faith") and beliefs, the grandchildren (who would be non Catholic and said daughther who is now Muslim) when they passed being full adherants and believers in the Musilm faith would not go to heaven to be with Mary as understood by Catholic adherants.

That is my thesis.

It is open to scrutiny as I said, corrections with links are appreciated, alternate outcomes are also sought.

Thanks
302

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 21:16:32
Well folks I think from Pax V's lack of response says a lot, .................. but being a person with a quest for knowledge I will stand by my thesis for now.

But admit I would have preffered a reply from Pax V
303

Pax V,

24/12/2007 21:47:20
Ross, 321

Yep, as previously advised, I'm happy to participate in the scrutiny of catholic doctrine along with a similar examination of others.

Let me know when you're ready....
304

puskas,

East Kilbride 24/12/2007 21:49:38
Would someone remind me... Is this topic about B Liar becoming RC...

305

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 21:59:52
Pax V I have been ready all evening I know that had the boot been on the other foot the Muslim changing to Catholisism and having children in that faith in some cases it may have cost her her life, in the protestant case, some bigotted fathers would not have spoken to their daughther again, what I am thinking as you will not tell help me LEARN about your faith that there is something to hide, thus I came up with my thesis above. WHICH until challenged with facts will remain my thesis.

I learnt already today I had made some stupid errors re the catholic faith, admitted them and do so sagin, but your not giving me ,much help here.

306

Ross Fyffe,

Thesis again 24/12/2007 22:02:48
So Pax V now that you will not answer my questions I will put forward my thesis, this thesis is open for scrutiny of any constructive kind.

It is however only my view from not havng any prior knowledge.

My thesis is that If a daughter brought up in the Catholic faith married a Muslim and had children by him and they were to be raised as Muslim, her Catholic father would not be permitted by the Catholic church to give her his full Blessing and full approval.

The second part to my thesis is in the Catholic Faith (which I am led to believe is "the only true faith") and beliefs, the grandchildren (who would be non Catholic and said daughther who is now Muslim) when they passed, being full adherants and believers in the Musilm faith would not go to heaven to be with Mary as understood by Catholic adherants.

That is my thesis.

It is open to scrutiny as I said, corrections with links are appreciated, alternate outcomes are also sought.

Thanks
307

Pax V,

24/12/2007 22:05:41
Ross,

good luck with your thesis.

I'm just one guy....not a spokesperson for 1100 million Catholics. My answer may---or may not --- be representative.

But my offer remains.

I'll participate in doctrinal scrutiny.....but NOT of one Church. Unilateral doctrinal scrutiny of ONE Church has become a habit in Scotland.

Let's form a new habit: let's examine ALL beliefs.

Let's start with the beliefs of intolerant seculars as they appear most prone to ridiculing the beliefs of others.
308

Pax V,

24/12/2007 22:06:05
Puskas, 323

No.
309

Pax V,

24/12/2007 22:15:57
Gordon, 328

Christianity is the biggest group.

Catholicism is the biggest single faith. Over 1100 million members.

Whatever you are...you do seem to have a penchant for making an erse of yourself here!
310

Pax V,

24/12/2007 22:16:52
Gordon, 328

Oh, and i'm surprised to see YOU suggest Christianity and Catholicism are interchangeable. That's just plain wrong.
311

Pax V,

24/12/2007 22:18:56
Must get off now, fellas.

Off soon to Midnight Mass.

Thon wee Jewish fella....born in a Manger over 2000 years ago.....started his own Church....and I'm off to worship at one of his Churches!

Brilliant!

God Bless all of you. Particularly yous heathens.
312

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 22:20:35

But Pax V you gave your views on many things tonight, many views indeed on a wide range of subjects to do with the Catholic Faith so I am afriad your answer in 326 smacks of at best being disengenious and at worst of deceipt, you could have answered my questions or helped with my thesis as a father, one day if statistics hold out your daughter may be involved in many many non church activities maybe I raised a question in your head. (PS I do not believe in luck and am surprised you invoke that phrase)

Maybe as you were playing Santa (if you do) earlier you looked at your daughter sleeping and thinking in ten or so years I may have to DISOWN her because she has married a Muslim ( a very fast growing and pervasive/persuasive religion) and knowing that your faith (according to my yet unchallenged thesis) would have you cast her from your family, make it impossible for you to see your grandchildren be confirmed, be unable to attend her (or their) wedding.

Maybe I did hit a raw nerve, maybe I am off the mark , ......... but I wonder :-)
313

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 22:22:47
God Bless you Pax V John 3:16
314

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 22:23:49
Gordon is Pax V a woman?
315

Ross Fyffe,

Revised thesis (for Gender) 24/12/2007 22:27:30
So Pax V now that you will not answer my questions I will put forward my thesis, this thesis is open for scrutiny of any constructive kind.

It is however only my view from not havng any prior knowledge.

My thesis is that If a daughter/son brought up in the Catholic faith married a Muslim and had children by him or with her and they were to be raised as Muslim, their Catholic father or mother would not be permitted by the Catholic church to give them his or her their full Blessing and full approval.

The second part to my thesis is in the Catholic Faith (which I am led to believe is "the only true faith") and beliefs, the grandchildren (who would be non Catholic and said daughther or son who is now Muslim) when they passed being full adherants and believers in the Musilm faith would not go to heaven to be with Mary as understood by Catholic adherants.

That is my thesis.

It is open to scrutiny as I said, corrections with links are appreciated, alternate outcomes are also sought.

Thanks
316

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 22:28:37
Thank Gordon
317

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

24/12/2007 22:30:39
Guy, Guys, Guys, especially Pax (ironic name , really?) V and Ross.

It's CHRISTMAS, or whatever the pre-Christian name fo the same festival is. I'm sure the same sentiments attached to both are basically similar. Chill out!

They even had a Christmas truce on Christmas Day of the first year of World War 1, for goodness sake!

Peace on Earth and goodwill to all mankind, and may your god (or whatever other belief system) go with you.
318

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 24/12/2007 22:34:10
there was no truce on that day in WW1 it was a lull in barbarity punctuated by some (relatively few) exchanging niceties, an apocraphyl football match and a quick resumption of blowing each others heads off.
319

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 22:37:47
no signed truce just troops breaking ranks and disobeying orders.




http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1998/10/98/world_war_i/197627.stm
320

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

24/12/2007 22:39:32
Nice to see the milk of human kindness flows in your veins Ross - have a Happy Christmas!
321

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

24/12/2007 22:39:34
Nice to see the milk of human kindness flows in your veins Ross - have a Happy Christmas!
322

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 22:43:03
And to you as well Puffin-Stuff, no reason to not argue this night than any other, its not as if I am being rude, if its good enough for peace tonight then why not every night?

you analogy of the Christmas "truce" cost 1000's of lives the next year as the Generals of BOTH SIDES ordered huge bombardememnts and counter attacks on the following Christmas day ........
323

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 22:48:08

But Pax V you gave your views on many things tonight, many views indeed on a wide range of subjects to do with the Catholic Faith so I am afriad your answer in 326 smacks of at best being disengenious and at worst of deceipt, you could have answered my questions or helped with my thesis as a father, one day if statistics hold out your daughter may be involved in many many non church activities maybe I raised a question in your head. (PS I do not believe in luck and am surprised you invoke that phrase)

Maybe as you were playing Santa (if you do) earlier you looked at your daughter sleeping and thinking in ten or so years I may have to DISOWN her because she has married a Muslim ( a very fast growing and pervasive/persuasive religion) and knowing that your faith (according to my yet unchallenged thesis) would have you cast her from your family, make it impossible for you to see your grandchildren be confirmed, be unable to attend her (or their) wedding.

Maybe I did hit a raw nerve, maybe I am off the mark , ......... but I wonder :-)

So Pax V now that you will not answer my questions I will put forward my thesis, this thesis is open for scrutiny of any constructive kind.

It is however only my view from not havng any prior knowledge.

My thesis is that If a daughter/son brought up in the Catholic faith married a Muslim and had children by him or with her and they were to be raised as Muslim, their Catholic father or mother would not be permitted by the Catholic church to give them his or her their full Blessing and full approval.

The second part to my thesis is in the Catholic Faith (which I am led to believe is "the only true faith") and beliefs, the grandchildren (who would be non Catholic and said daughther or son who is now Muslim) when they passed being full adherants and believers in the Musilm faith would not go to heaven to be with Mary as understood by Catholic adherants.

That is my thesis.

It is open to scrutiny as I said, corrections
324

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

24/12/2007 23:10:07
Only thing is, Ross, or maybe you hadn't noticed - nobody is arguing with you. Sounds as though you would argue in an empty room!

Calm down, laddie, and bring a little peace into your own life - the still inner voice rather than all this bluster and clamour. We're all the healthier for that.
325

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

24/12/2007 23:10:09
Only thing is, Ross, or maybe you hadn't noticed - nobody is arguing with you. Sounds as though you would argue in an empty room!

Calm down, laddie, and bring a little peace into your own life - the still inner voice rather than all this bluster and clamour. We're all the healthier for that.
326

Ross Fyffe,

24/12/2007 23:21:22
Just looking for answers Puffin-Stuff if you don't learn no point in being ............. and try not to repeat your self, ........... :-)

I am at peace with myself just like to have my mind alert
327

bill2,

24/12/2007 23:39:01
247
Pax V

"I reckon TB acted in good faith."

Did he hell as like. He deliberately took our country into an illegal war for the benefit of his friends, knowing full well that there was no justification whatsoever. Murderer!
328

Ross Fyffe,

more for Pax v 24/12/2007 23:58:44
1. ONLY God can forgive sins (Mark 2:7-12).

2. "The words 'priest,' 'priesthood' ? are never applied in the New Testament to the office of the Christian ministry. All Christians are priests (1 Pet. 2:5,9).

3. All Christians can pray to God through Christ for forgiveness of their own sins (Acts 8:22; Matt. 6:12).

4. Any Christian can pray for the forgiveness of another Christian; but they only pray - they CANNOT actually forgive the sin. And all righteous men (not some special priestly class) do this for one another (James 5:16).

5. The ONLY mediator between us and God is Jesus (I Tim. 2:5).

We must conclude that, despite its claims, the Catholic church is NOT the true, original church since it does NOT FOLLOW the teaching and practice of the original church as revealed in the New Testament.

329

puskas,

East Kilbride 25/12/2007 06:25:42
No 352,

Yup you are correct .. He put politics ahead of his faith...

Seems like a good icon for Roman Catholicism..

Aye pull the other one.

The man's evil and so full of self importance he could lick his own xrse and think it chocolate.

Merry Xmas to nearly all. Homeless, Immigrants, Refugees' etc.. All peoples, all colours and of course my people the Scots whom I wish the best that Xmas may bring. New Year good health and luck to a new vibrant country heading in the correct direction.
"INDEPENDANCE."
330

Willhelm,

Great Britain 25/12/2007 09:57:56
Of course our elected politicians never told the electorate they indended to follow a Catholic driven aganda, did they now?

Labour are now being seen in Scotland, for what they really are. One of the reasons for losing the election was the imgrained hate and bigotry from RC dominated councillors and MP's.

Glasgow city council being the prime example of corruption, hate and widespread bigotry against the majority population.

However I'm sure Tony will fit in nicely with the church of his choice, after all, he's renowned for not listening to common sense or practical reasoning, only bullying and imposing his views on others.

Sound familiar?

http://www.vanguardbears.com/Fascists.html
331

Pax V,

25/12/2007 10:07:55
Hiya Ross, 351

Anything on the Church of Scotland?

Or ANY other Church?

You do seem to have a wee problem with Catholicism.

Could you get help?
332

Pax V,

25/12/2007 10:09:40
Little Willie Bigot Boy, 355

Merry CHRIST-mass to you too.
333

Pax V,

25/12/2007 10:11:37
Wini 356

Ditto most of that, Wini...just a pity that free speech here is often just a bigot fest.

One day our beautiful wee country will rid itself of small minded bigots\racists\fascists\nazis and grow up.
334

Finnking,

25/12/2007 10:12:50
So, Blair chooses another flavour of pizza; one that is more in tune with his lifestyle of telling lies, murdering people, removing democratic systems and pushing forward the industrialist agenda against the will of the people. He chose well; child abuse cover-ups, the post war 'rat run' (aided by his other friends the US gov) that helped the biggest nazis move to south America, killed 1000's by promoting the notion that condoms do not reduce the spread of HIV etc etc. Aye, you know a man by the friends he keeps.

How does this fit with his Lodge status?

335

Pontificatus Maximus of Avignon,

25/12/2007 10:41:05
A Happy Christmas to All!

I note Paxo is still at it. No chapel this morning?

Tell us all about how and why the high heid yins in Rome murdered Pope John Paul I!
336

Pontificatus Maximus of Avignon,

25/12/2007 11:21:31
#363, 364

Do you think the tax-payer picked up the tab for the obligatory fee for a private mass?

Am getting a wee bit worried about Pax V. Maybe she is still on her knees?

Pax Vobiscum!
337

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 25/12/2007 11:44:51
366 comments so far and it is about 7 a.m. here in Canada and about noon in Great Britain.

Can't we just get on with preparing our Christmas dinners and listen to The Queen's message?

Much better than this endless wrangling over Roman Catholicism and Blair.

Both topics could be considered by some to be irrelevant and NEVER being able to be resolved to anyone's satisfaction.

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY AND PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR 2008 TO ALL POSTERS PAST AND PRESENT!
338

Ross Fyffe,

25/12/2007 14:29:33
Pax V I have no problem with the catholic faith, that was something I found on the web, it makes sense when the passages are read.

I hope today each time you look at your daughter you inagine that as a Catholic you would not be able to go to her wedding when/if she takes the faith of and marries a Muslim or Protestant, that you as a grandmother/father would not see your grandchildren "confirmed" as you were, that they would learn a faith that would basically have you disown her to all intents and purposes. Are you ready for that?
In Fife there are grandchildren of miners who crossed the picket line who are ignored by those family members who did not so I imagine in a serious religion such as yours you would have to follow the Churchs rules.

The saddest thing is that you would believe (according to my yet unchallenged thesis) your daughter would not be with Mary (as the Catholic adherants believe)

So I have no problems with the Catholic faith none at all, you are free to worship how you want ........ as will your daughter when she grows up in a very diverse and by then possibly almost predominatly Muslim (in numbers of strict faith followers) country of Scotland
339

Ross Fyffe,

25/12/2007 17:55:50
Pax V had a good day?
340

Pax V,

25/12/2007 18:03:41
Ross, 369, 370,

No, no, no...of course you have no problems with the Catholic Church!

Just remind us how many lengthy posts you've made attacking Catholic Church doctrine?

Cant seem to find much from you on other Churches, Ross?

Methinks you have a serious problem. Couching your amateur theology in polite, rich vocabulary makes you less obvious and crude......but you have a "thing" about the Catholic Church.....and it's not pleasant.

As advised numerous times, I'll participate in doctrinal scrutiny of Churches if\when you're ready. Doctrinal scrutiny of only one Church (in Scotland that's invariably the Catholic Church) I'll leave to those who are that way inclined.
341

Ross Fyffe,

25/12/2007 18:53:03
Pax V nope, I have no problems with the Catholic faith I just wonder how parents deal with their children leaving the family faith.

You know in your heart that your daughter if she married out of faith you would HAVE to disown her, that your grandchildren would (in the what I believe to be the way of adherants to the Catholic faith believe) be dammed in a hot place never to be at Mary's side.

However since you do nor deny my thesis will not help me see if I a making any errors I am led to believe I am correct.

One day Pax V in maybe 10 years you will remember the day that I warned you you would have to disown your daugther as she decides on taking a different path.

Maybe though you will help me with my thesis, point out any errors I made, remember I accepted your guidance before when you were talking of things you felt were wrong ........... seems though now that I AM CORRECT you are scared, terrified of the day that may come when you HAVE TO CHOOSE Catholic Faith over your own daughter.

So I have no problems, correct my thesis, tell me if I err but whatever you decide I respect your choice.

342

Ross Fyffe,

25/12/2007 19:03:17
The Church tolerates mixed marriages on three conditions:

Both parties must promise that their children shall be brought up as Catholics;
The Catholic must promise to endeavour to bring the non-Catholic to the knowledge of the truth;
The non-Catholic must promise to allow the Catholic liberty for the free exercise of his or her religion. Without these three conditions the Church will not sanction a mixed marriage.
By tolerating or permitting mixed marriages the Church does not approve them; on the contrary she strongly disapproves of them and she insists so forcibly on the children being brought up in Catholic faith, because this is the main object of matrimony. It has already been shown that the chief end of marriage is to train up children in the knowledge and fear of God; the aim of the Christian parent should rather be to leave behind him inheritors of the kingdom of heaven than heirs of his earthly possessions. Consequently it is the first duty of a Catholic, who has wedded one who does hold the faith, to insure his child's salvation in as far as he can. How deeply is that parent to be commiserated who destroys the soul of her offspring, by allowing the poison of error to be instilled its mind!
343

Ross Fyffe,

25/12/2007 19:03:45
The Catholic who contracts a mixed marriage before a minister contracts no marriage at all, commits a mortal sin and cannot be admitted to the Sacraments.

Catholics who act thus are declared to be guilty of mortal sin, because they sin through disobedience, by refusing to conform to the precepts of the Church; they give great scandal, and deny the faith; they turn their back upon the sacraments of the true Church and receive the rites of an heretical sect.
344

Ross Fyffe,

373 aqnd 374 from site below a Catholic site 25/12/2007 19:04:58
http://www.truecatholic.org/marriagemixed.htm
345

Ross Fyffe,

25/12/2007 19:09:32
So by looking for answers in a CATHOLIC site I see my thesis was understated, if your daughter left and married outside the faith it would be a MORTAL sin wow that is from the (your) Churches own writings, Pax V why could you not have just helped me? are you having doubts about whether you would be strong enough in your faith to get through the day if it happened when she left the faith?
346

Ross Fyffe,

from same site cted above 25/12/2007 19:12:49
Addendum from the 1958 Penny Catechism

Q.
Has the Church always forbidden mixed marriages?
A.
The Church has always forbidden mixed marriages and considers them unlawful and pernicious.
Q.
Does the Church sometimes permit mixed marriages?
A.
The Church sometimes permits mixed marriages granting a dispensation, for very grave reasons and under special conditions.
347

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 25/12/2007 19:25:12
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_sin

Pax V it says here and I quote "Mortal sin, according to the beliefs of Roman Catholicism, is a sin that, unless confessed and absolved (or at least sacramental confession is willed if not available), condemns a person's soul to Hell after death"

That seems so final
348

Robbie 2,

NZ 25/12/2007 19:42:52
260 Media 1, cape town
Hi Media
I am neither a defender nor apologist for the Catholic Church or any religions but can you cite a reference for, "Pius III should not have murdered 60 000 people in one day and then called it the crowning moment of his papacy?" I understand that Pius III was a very studious prematurely aged guy with gout and who only "reigned' for about twenty-six days. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pius_III

Now Alexander VI might have done that - as he was a real 'worldly' pope. Although I believe he added to Scotland's crown jewels.
Anyway why get so hot up about the Catholics - as all religions have 'skeletons' in their closest (protestant churches burned more old women as witches than even the Catholics did especially in Scotland).
most if not all religions have a history of intolerance and cruelty.


349

Robbie 2,

25/12/2007 19:43:54

260 Media 1, cape town
I don't waste time talking about whether there is 'something' we do not know about (we could be an aliens soap operas for all I know) but I am SURE that the religious books are ALL seriously flawed.
Catholics and Protestants base their religions on the 'Holy' Bible and it amazes me - is the fact that ANYONE can read the Bible , especially the Old Testament and believe it is the word of God. It is a terribly cruel and ridiculous tome.
If Tony Blair or George Bush can read about a jealous psychopathic God who orders the stoning to death of so many for even innocent crimes. A God who orders the execution of all prisoners after a battle including women and male children but to keep the virgins and young girls alive to 'use' ie., rape.

I have previously posted that if any poster have truly read the Bible (or Koran or book of Mormon) and believe in it's contents of approbation of land, ethnic killing, rape and plenty of adultery (how many wives and concubines did Solomon and David have) - then it must be from a strange fear as it is impossible to 'love' or respect any entity that performs the atrocities of the Bible.
I would like any Christian poster to reply (not about whether there is some sort of creator) but only if they have read the Bible and can explain the evils committed by God in it.
350

Ross Fyffe,

25/12/2007 20:17:48
Hi Robbie, I cannot answer your question, but I believe, soory I cannot help.
351

historypeople,

25/12/2007 20:59:52
Not much interested in religion, but -

Scrolling through this long debate between ross fyffe and pax V what has emerged emphatically is the sheer evasiveness and untruthfulness of Pax V.

No doubt there are better spokespersons for the RC organisation, but it would have been better for Pax V simply to have honestly stated what was his/her understanding of the objective basis of the RC moral positions outlined by ross fyffe in the form of questions, because the RC faith claims an objective and truthful basis for its morality, its metaphysics, and its faith.

If only from this debate, what emerges is the deceitfulness and systematic inhumanity of the rules of the RC organisation.
352

Robbie 2,

NZ 25/12/2007 21:56:20
381 Ross Fyffe
Hi Ross - Compliments of the season.
Are you saying you believe in an unknown entity which may explain the ‘mystery of life, nature and the cosmos’?
In which case it’s not a discussion worth engaging in as it leads nowhere. Or are you saying you believe in the God of the Bible - including all the cruelties absurdities and errors of the Old Testament?
If the latter - why????
I repeat - if any poster has truly read the and believes in it's contents of unjust wars, ethnic killing, rape, adultery and massive animal sacrifice, all sanctioned (or often carried out) by God - then it must be from a strange fear of hell as it is impossible to 'love' or respect any entity that performs the atrocities of the Bible.
Please give me examples of God’s love for humanity in the Old Testament compared to his/her/its terrible punishments for trivial offences. A god who instructed his followers to kill any who would not believe in him.
Who sent bears to rip small children apart for laughing at a prophets baldness. The God of the Bible is more
dictatorial and murderous than even those evil popes Media 1 is on about..
God orders the stoning to death of an old man for picking up firewood on the Sabbath - what about the Christians who today work on the Sabbath (be it Saturday or Sunday) do you Ross believe they should be stoned to death - if not - why not? -Has God grown more humane, wiser or have humans in ignoring his wishes?
353

Ross Fyffe,

25/12/2007 22:20:07
Robbie, I wish I could spend a break with you talking what I believe, but I am very much at a learning stage of my faith, I believe in God, that Jesus was Born, lived, died and was raised for my sins, and I am a good sinner, I am a member of the CoS and my minister is proud to say that his church and Church are filled with hypocrites just like him, so I have much to take on board.

Your country draws me each year and one day i will visit sorry I cannot help you yet.
354

Ross Fyffe,

25/12/2007 22:22:06
Thank you History people, I did give where needed with Pax V but s/he did not. Her/his loss indeed as you say s/he gives a very dubious outlook of her/his faith as they understand it.
355

Robbie 2,

NZ 25/12/2007 23:01:21
384 Ross Fyffe
Hello again Ross - I appreciate that you do not have time ( a break) to talk of your beliefs. I too spend little time on these forums (compared to earlier times) - as there are so many other things to do in life, but I do get frustrated at the number of times so many Christians (of all persuasions) make irrational statements about God, their personal religion and the completely false premise that God is loving God - a fact of which there is little evidence in their Bible. Christians almost always avoid the basic question, ‘Why is God so cruel, bias, illogical, tyrannical, unjust and down-right nuts right through the Old Testament. Again I ask for only one response - If Christians believe in the Bible - why is God so apparently crazy in the old Testament? It’s not a hard question for those of faith. Why do you think God is ‘good’ when he has committed or ordered so many atrocities in the bible? People believe (as they do about everything) because they have been virtually ‘brain-washed’ since birth and made to fear having doubts in case of terrible retribution of eternal suffering by their ‘loving heavenly Father’ - what a Dad!!!! I don’t know if there is ‘something’ else - I just try to lead a good and helpful life but I am sure the Bible is not the ‘Good Book’. It should be believers in the Bible (not simple Deists) who show its merits.
356

Robbie 2,

25/12/2007 23:37:38
Not a word.!! One day (perhaps) just one day a Christian (perhaps someone from the Loyal Orange Lodge) will explain why they worship the cruel God of the Bible - on that day loud oinking will be heard from the skies. Never yet has a religious person explained Biblical nonsense - it’s always ‘faith’ is the answer.
The only time I will ever post is any time I see ‘people of faith’ make preposterous statements about the Bible and their so call loving God. Be good as human beings not because of everlasting flames.
357

Ross Fyffe,

26/12/2007 00:56:39
But Robbie I believe that human beings cannot be good all are sinners, or I suppose in some views we all make mistakes. its how we deal with that.


PS hope this line stays open if Pax V comes back
358

Bend Over,

26/12/2007 01:16:29
A mass murderer, compulsive liar, pro abortion and gay marriage, allowed to join the Catholic church ?

Shakes head in disbelief.
359

Robbie 2,

NZ 26/12/2007 01:27:36
388 Ross Fyffe
Ross you still ( as do all Christians) avoid my question. Do you understand what is being asked?
See posts #386 & #387. Why does your God display such wicked behaviour (often like a strong bullying child) in your Bible. In a million years Ross you could not commit the atrocities (sins?) that God carries out in the Bible. The Bible reflects a series of writings (as do all ‘Holy Books’) by ancient peoples. In those days they tried to explain the mysteries around them with Gods. Some (the snake-oil salesmen, rarely women as gods always seem to be misogynists, of the time) even claimed to speak to God/s and get instructions from them. Read again the Old Testament; usually (apart from a couple of good things) these instructions were a nonsense eg., animal and human sacrifice, rules on ritual behaviour, warnings of disaster if not obeyed and remember usually these gods were associated with a tribe, a people or a specific culture God was intend in wiping out other people if only the Israelites would worship him.. One can live a good life committing no offence against fellow humans or in fact against nature. One does not need the jealous weirdo god of the Bible to lay down the rules. Explain the wickedness of God and I might even become a believer; when the sky oinkers will be about again.
360

Bend Over,

26/12/2007 01:50:28
387 will explain why they worship the cruel God of the Bible

Maybe worship is the wrong word, to many Christians a more apt term would be pledge allegiance. May be some people prefer to pledge allegiance to human beings like Bush, Blair, Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Genghis Khan, the "cruel" acts you keep talking about in the Bible are nothing compared to these guys.
361

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland but wanting to visit NZ 26/12/2007 04:15:39
Robbie, please see my answer and apology at 381
362

Robbie 2,

NZ 26/12/2007 04:36:48
391 Bend Over states
"......Bush, Blair, Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Genghis Khan, the "cruel" acts you keep talking about in the Bible are nothing compared to these guys."

How do you reckon?
God apparently 'kills' everyone on Earth because they displease him. Yes EVERYONE including innocent children and babies. If God knows everything and that his creations would displease him - why not change the model. It is pure lunacy and secretly religious people know it. Pray - pray pray ardently for any sign from your God - you will get nothing (unless you let your imagination run riot) Why? Three guesses.
Believe in a supernatural entity if you will, no problem - all I say is it the Bible and the Koran are ludicrous and could not possibly be the written word of any benevolent creator.
363

Ross Fyffe,

26/12/2007 04:59:13
Robbie may I ask why you are interested in something you don't think exists or do you think God does exist but that he is not good?

If you think it is nothing more than hocus pocus should you not just live your life as you wish and let others do so?

364

Robbie 2,

26/12/2007 05:53:49
394 Ross Fyffe
No matter how many times I write it - you fail to understand the question.
I do not discuss the existence of anything. Whether there is a Loch Ness Monster a Yeti or 100 Gods - is immaterial. My questions are on the authenticity and substances of the World’s ‘Holy Books’. I have no problem with anyone believing in the supernatural or in mysteries -that are unaccountable. It is the Bible and Koran that can be shown easily to be false as containing the ‘truth’ as laid down be these Supremes. I would happily discuss with anyone any aspect of the Bible (easily proved to be full of quite evil and illogical acts) but not spend time discussing something that can not be proved one way or another.
Anyone who cannot admit that there is a great deal of ‘nonsense’ in the Bible has either not really read it or is in a form of denial (usually because of either fear or the desire to believe in a benevolent entity that gives them rules - even if they ignore most of the rules as preposterous - stoning etc.) Please understand that people who show the error of the Bible or Koran are not ‘bad people or ‘sinners’ nor do they wish a lengthy discussion on Gods or Angels just an understanding as to how ANYONE can believe the ravings of ancients who claim to talk to spirits who then give them a blue print for life - especially when its been the cause of conflict for centuries.
I’ve posted some references for those seeking the truth about their Bible before and never had a response - so guess no one’s bothered reading them (truth might contaminate them) or never bother reading post against the Bible - both could be true.
Proving that the Bible is repulsive at: (you may have to copy theme into your browser).
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video2.htm
http://www.biblicalnonsense.com/
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
If you even glance at these sites you can at least make a more informed decision about belief in Holy Books.
You may still believe in a Dei
365

Ross Fyffe,

26/12/2007 06:15:54
Ok looked at the sites, to me they are blasphemous, I still believe that God is omnipitent, that I am a sinner, that by believing in Jesus and that he died and was resurected for my sins I will go to heaven through Him.

Sorry Robbie, I cannot help you as I said before.

When I was on Lewis 10 years ago the Sabbath was observed as best as I have ever seen it.

PS there is no need for any store to be open on a Sunday not one single reason
366

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland (a country of many faiths) 26/12/2007 06:43:25
Pax v 372 - 378
367

isilwane,

Durban 26/12/2007 06:50:25
Firstly, hope you all had a very Blessed & happy Christmas.

Cannot believe that the 'conversion' of a once very prominent person has elicited so much vitriol!! Surely we were brought up to NOT judge others - we don't know what's going on between them and God. As for this dumb comment about the Pope's complete 'infallibility' - that was only defined in 1870, and since then there has been only one infallible statement, that of Mary's Assumption.

For Media 1 in Cape Town .. maybe you should get off the mountain, the tablecloth eventually suppresses the brains, and try to enjoy life :-)

Let's pray that the New Year will bring much harmony to this very troubled world ..... incidentally, 'our' God (for the Atheist out there) is not one of anger and vengeance. His children don't know, and have never known, how to behave. Can you imagine being a parent and having children that run amok?? I'd give them a very fat 'klap' (that's a good Afrikaans word for hiding), but still want to cradle them in my arms & smother them with love.

Best wishes
368

isilwane,

Durban 26/12/2007 07:39:08
My goodness, I've finally had a chance to read through all the various 'debates'. Robbie 2 needs to leave "The land of the long white cloud" - it induces some severe depression:-) He should also read some JRR Tolkien - the Lord of the Rings was filmed on South Island. JRR was a devout RC who was actually born in Bloemfontein.

Robbie . to whom do you give thanks for all the joys and blessings we receive? They are most surely not all man-made? Please don't throw Charles Darwin at me - he was a slightly misguided person.

The Catholic 'bashers' should just take time to concentrate on their own religions .. I don't have enough hours to belittle those of other faiths when I still need to know more about my own. I.E. remove the log from your own eye before trying to remove the splinter from that of your brother.

Saddened to read objections about Tony Blair's 'conversion' from some, supposedly, 'devout' Catholics. The catechism and Church into which I was born (a long time ago) has teachings that seem rather dissimilar to the ones being touted on the screen. And one needs to keep very up-to-date, rather than being entrenched in the "Penny Catechism".
369

Ross Fyffe,

26/12/2007 07:52:03
I note you take my quote from the "penny catechism" yet say nothing of the doctrinal views on out of faiyh marraige from the catholic faiths own web site I was trying to find an answer but Pax V became evasive and i now see why, it would be a MORTAL SIN, no ill to me just trying to broaden my knowledge, nothing to hide in the CoS rules and beliefs, pretty simple, we are all sinners and we need to try harder. We are permitted to pray directly to God, no wee wifie needed for us.

I just find it stange Catholics are so defensive,
370

Ross Fyffe,

26/12/2007 07:56:13
isilwane for you I have a question, if you are "up to date" can you help me with the following?
This thesis is open for scrutiny of any constructive kind.

It is however only my view from not havng any prior knowledge.

My thesis is that If a daughter brought up in the Catholic faith married a Muslim and had children by him and they were to be raised as Muslim, her Catholic father would not be permitted by the Catholic church to give her his full Blessing and full approval, because to do so would make them party to and thus complicite in a Mortal Sin ending in H***?

The second part to my thesis is in the Catholic Faith (which I am led to believe is "the only true faith") and beliefs, the grandchildren (who would be non Catholic and said daughther who is now Muslim) when they passed being full adherants and believers in the Musilm faith would not go to heaven to be with Mary as understood by Catholic adherants, it would indeed be a Mortal Sin with H*** as the end result?

That is my thesis.

It is open to scrutiny as I said, corrections with links are appreciated, alternate outcomes are also sought.

Thanks
371

Robbie 2,

NZ 26/12/2007 08:16:37
399 isilwane, Durban writes:
"Robbie 2 needs to leave "The land of the long white cloud" - it induces some severe depression:."
My reply: What ever gives you the idea I'm depressed - the only guilt feelings I have is that I'm so content - with my wife, children, friends and garden. I’m honestly really happy and content - just pis*ed of with the Bible.
Dour gloomy folk are the domain of the religious.
isilwane then adds "Please don't throw Charles Darwin at me - he was a slightly misguided person."
I reply when did I mention Darwin? My beef is solely with the evil of the Bible!!
isilwane also says, “ to whom do you give thanks for all the joys and blessings we receive? They are most surely not all man-made?”
This would take more time than I have - (there’s a sing-song next door)
For heavens sake - think - think what of all the people (the majority of the World - billions) who receive no ‘joys and blessings ‘ who have pain, parasites, torture, abuse and starvation - I bet they pray - every day and get nowt in return. Be realistic.
The ‘joys and blessings’ of modern living ie freedom from the crippling diseases and scourges of the past - hot water, sanitation computers, soap, all our comforts (not accorded to all and none of which the Bible prophesised) are ‘man made’. Face the truth and please read what I say - don’t go on about God just the Bible!!
372

Pax V,

26/12/2007 08:28:44
I see Ross's "no problem with Catholicism" anti Catholicism tirade goes on and on and on...

Get help, Ross....get help.
373

Ross Fyffe,

26/12/2007 08:39:23
Hi Pax V you dont need to answer any more I found out my answer, it would be a Mortal Sin when, sorry, if your daughter left the Catholic faith married a Muslim or Protestant, and she would I believe according to the definition of mortal sin go to a very hot place for eternity as woul dyou if you Blessed or supported her in ANY way. You would have to disown your daughter and any subsequent children, so no thanks i dont need your help :-) but thanks for looking back to see how things were going
374

Ross Fyffe,

26/12/2007 08:42:58
Pax V I also know that if you deny I am right then you deny your churches teachings and thus yourself commit a mortal sin ,,,,,,,,,, you could however tell me I am correct.

After all you were quick enough to correct me ( which I accepted) when I was indeed wrong about an aspect of the Catholic faith ..........
375

Robbie 2,

26/12/2007 08:59:56
401 Ross Fyffe
Ross - honestly are you people serious????
Think of the immensity of the Universe!
Then think of the unbelievable intellect of any entity that could possibly create such a infinite cosmos.
Then imagine that this HUGE intellect and all powerful being could in any way be associated with the absolute infantile gibberish of religious argument that goes on earth; a micro-dot in the Universe. Stop all you religious zealots and THINK. If your god exists (not denying anyone's gods - just their Bibles, Korans etc) would such a clever (to the power of infinity) worry about the petty rules of earthly clerics?
It's all too blo*dy stupid to think that people even discuss it.
Think - God - Huge; Think - God - Universe; - Think - God - Earth; Think - God - Catholics vs. protestants.
Think - God - saying - they’re pathetic!!!!

376

Ross Fyffe,

26/12/2007 09:25:38
Deadly serious Robbie, imagine that a man or men ( a Pope or his pals) makes a rule that FORCES a mother to disown her child for marrying some-one of a different faith, now do you think God meant that to be?

377

bill2,

FH 26/12/2007 09:38:51
I have been reading these posts and trying to work out what everyone is saying; I am confused.

As a practising Christian, I can contribute some ideas which might clear the air a little. I eagerly await your responses.

1. The Bible - old and new testaments, aprocryha, excluded gospels and old writings - are a record of goings-on in the past and are subject to interpretation. They also have a bearing on today's world, as all knowledge does, and form the basis of a model by which some people lead their lives. I am one of those people, but I reject the idea of any church telling me how or what I should believe implicitly.