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Do UFOs really exist?

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Published Date:
29 July 2007
IT'S the weird and wonderful place where the men in grey suits from Whitehall meet the little green men from Mars.

Do you have any photographs of UFOs? Share them with us by emailing them to sospics@scotlandonsunday.com

The Ministry of Defence has for the first time opened its real-life 'X Files', detailing how its experts have examined photographs of UFOs hovering over the UK.

While the images range from the baffling to the risible, there is no doubting the seriousness that officials reserve for the issue of extraterrestrial life.

Correspondence between the MoD and members of the public who report sightings of strange objects reveals that Whitehall mandarins remain "totally open-minded" about the existence of UFOs.

The letters - obtained by Scotland on Sunday through the Freedom of Information Act - confirm that the MoD has a procedure of scrambling fighter planes to confront any unidentified craft or object that enters UK airspace.

However, there are hints that at least some strange objects seen in the sky are of a distinctly terrestrial provenance.

In one letter, officials admit that military helicopters carry out low-flying combat training missions across Britain, and apologise for any alarm they may have caused.

The MoD has confirmed it receives more than 100 reports of UFO sightings every year, many of which come from Scotland.

Last year alone, the Ministry was sent five sets of photographs and videos purporting to show UFO activity.

One was sent by a concerned resident who last March reported seeing silent superfast "triangular craft" and other strange objects in the skies above the south of England.

He enclosed a picture that appears to show a ball of light moving at speed across the sky with an illuminated trail in its wake.

A lengthy official response from the MoD's Directorate of Air Staff is at pains to reassure the individual.

It states: "We remain totally open-minded, but to date we know of no evidence which substantiates the existence of these alleged phenomena.

"The MoD examines any reports of unidentified flying objects it receives, solely to establish whether what was seen might have some defence significance; namely whether there is any evidence that the UK's airspace might have been compromised by hostile or unauthorised air activity."

The letter claims the Ministry could not justify spending public money on being an "aerial identification service", but stresses that every precaution is taken to protect the integrity of UK airspace.

It adds: "I should inform you that low-flying training takes place throughout the UK.

"In the event of conflict, helicopters are vulnerable to ground fire, and one of the vital skills that must be acquired by pilots is flying as closely as possible to the nap of the earth so that the aircraft is shielded and camouflaged by the features of the terrain.

"This type of training is spread as thinly as possible throughout the UK, so as not to concentrate activity over one area. I am sorry if this training has caused disturbance to you."

The MoD also received a succession of images of objects in the sky above Portsmouth harbour last July.

And in one decidedly eccentric letter last May, a concerned citizen warns the MoD that she and her husband are being menaced by invisible craft, the grey alien inhabitants of which have already abducted her in the past to "extract her DNA".

To support her case, she enclosed a photograph of an all-too-visible object (possibly a Frisbee or a satellite dish) "hovering" over a church.

In an impeccably polite response, MoD officials come to the sober conclusion that: "With regard to your particular observations, we are satisfied that there is no corroborating evidence to suggest that the UK's airspace has been breached by unauthorised aircraft."

In another response to an individual who claimed to have provided film evidence of UFO activity over the Clyde in Glasgow last year, an official states frankly: "I have viewed your video and I am content that it contains nothing of defence concern."

The MoD confirmed that in 2006 it received more than 100 reports of UFO sightings, including 12 from Scotland.

The previous year around 150 sightings were reported, with again a dozen coming from north of the Border. These included six reported sightings on the same day (September 14, 2005) in Fife and Perthshire of "bright white lights" in the sky.

The unidentified objects were sighted in Lochgelly, Glenrothes, Crieff, Letham, Blairgowrie and Kinross.

Nick Pope, who headed the MoD's UFO Project between 1991 and 1994, confirmed that reported sightings were taken extremely seriously.

"The MoD wants to know everything flying in the UK's air-defence range and investigate all sightings," he said.

Pope revealed that 95% of UFO reports turned out to either have obvious explanations or to be so vague that any investigation was impossible.

"The remaining 5% of cases were pretty interesting and remained unexplained even after a very thorough explanation. It doesn't prove that these objects were extraterrestrial, but you can't rule any option out."

The former MoD investigator even claimed that officials tried to copy the advanced technology of unidentified vehicles.

"A number of reports were of silent triangular aircraft travelling at considerable speed," he said. "These and some other reports suggested some sort of propulsion system we would be extremely interested in.

"A lot of the serious UFO investigation was aimed at trying to ascertain things such as the aerodynamics of some of the UFOs, the avionics and the propulsion systems.

"We wanted to know if there was anything that we might learn from, regardless of what the source of these UFOs is."

Have you seen UFOs flying above Scotland or do you think the whole idea of little green men is pie in the sky? Tell us what you think and discuss extra-terrestrial matters with other readers.












Page 1 of 1

 
1

I'm no really here,

29/07/2007 00:03:02

Of course I exist.

2

albanoch,

Kyoto Japan 29/07/2007 01:13:28

Seeing is believing and I saw one over Hamilton early the hours of one morning while working an all nighter.
The goverment and the church don't want the truth to come out as it could/might cause panic among the populace{which I doubt very much }and the Mythology that passes for religion and all it's assorted mythological Gods would be scupperd..and as Christianity is the very foundations of society..it's sayonara The Church. How in Gods name could they answer that one..that there are other forms of life far more intelligent that us{they prove their intelligence by keeping a far distance from us} and who can come and go as they please and no Gods or prayers to saints or blessed dead folk are of any avail.There is no God and there are no Gods they've all been invented by man's own imagination..there is one source of all and the UFO people are as much a part of that source as we are...If you want them to go away try throwing holy water at them wae yon drumstick thing the Pope uses..might wurk..ye niver know?

3

Guga II,

Rockall 29/07/2007 01:16:46

All these UFO's come from the Johnny Walker School of Flying, which is why the pictures of them are always blurred.

#1 I'm no really here, isn't really here.

4

I'm no really here,

29/07/2007 01:22:41

Isn't it amazing that for years we have had camcorders, digital cameras, phones with cameras, and no-one has yet come up with a clear convincing picture of a UFO or aliens.

#2 I'm a Christian and have a degree in Astrophysics. If I encountered an alien, I would turn it round and look for the zipper on the back of the costume.

5

The Wizard,

OZ 29/07/2007 01:32:03

My neighbour tells me he is from the planet Xzuyion.
He only came here for a holiday but his battery ran flat and we don't have the means of recharging it.

The truth is out there.

6

albanoch,

kyoto Japan 29/07/2007 03:39:36

Gentle readers if you're wanting pics of UFO"s that are not blurred then just type in UFO on your seatrch engine and take youe pick..there are thousand of excellent photographs...
Not much of a God if he could only come up with us violent, drunken, greedy, self centred egotistical hypocrits...there must be someone else out there..

7

C.U. Jimmy,

Cyberspace 29/07/2007 03:40:38

The vast majority of UFO "sightings" in the UK used to occur just after closing time at the pub. With this Government's Victory Gin approach to 24-hour drinking, it would hardly be surprising to hear of more "sightings" these days.

There really is a "silly season" in the media though.

8

gaffer,

kamloops, b.c. Canada 29/07/2007 03:47:32

really , for the love of god , lets get over this , so what if there is life some where else,, we live here and lets build ourselves a better life for al of us , let them come here and say "Hey come and live with us . life is great , utopia " all you will find is an other U.S.A. under Emporer Bush or his followers as the American empire grows, as did all the proceeding empires

9

Cablag,

out there 29/07/2007 05:29:41

strange goings on over Edinburgh

http://www.phi-latitude.co.uk/

10

Masque,

29/07/2007 05:47:38

Stupid headline.

Anything in the sky is a UFO until you recognise it! It's defining what they are when you don't recognise it that's the problem!

11

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 29/07/2007 06:16:44
12

ex katman 2,

ex sudan 29/07/2007 06:20:01

I knew it was the Scouts 100th jamboree, but not the space cadets surely.

13

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, California The Golden State 29/07/2007 06:36:41

My friends and I see UFO's almost every day, and some nights.


Respectfully
Galactic Cannibal

14

Gizzabreak,

29/07/2007 07:31:32

I see no spaceships ... only hardships!

15

Steenwyck,

29/07/2007 08:03:21

albanach! That is a breathtaking leap of faith.

16

BK,

Cyberspace 29/07/2007 08:13:11

I see UFOs every day birds, insects and planes. There is no doubt that they are flying objects, so if I cannot positively identify them, then they are UFOs!

17

blair,

East Lothian 29/07/2007 08:37:45

Over 40 years ago I saw an Unidentified Flying Object but did not report it because I had no witness and, since my youth, had been trained never to believe anything unless I could confirm it from an independent source. I always apply the questions - Who says so? - On what grounds? - How much reliance can I place on their judgement? I was wakened by the dog giving his warning bark and went to the hall where I saw the object through a window and heard a high-pitched electrical hum. I lokked away and called my wife to come. On looking back it had gone and the humming had stopped. The dog was no longer affected.

18

blair,

East Lothian 29/07/2007 08:45:18

Please excuse my typing. That should have read "I looked away".

19

Phil241106,

Airdrie 29/07/2007 08:51:21

Looks like Albanoch (#1) is just wanting to be known as someone who hates the name of God or anything pertaining to the name or a religion - even if it detracts from the current thread. If he's in Japan....then good. If not, then go there and let us get on with it. Stick to the story.

20

SouthernSkye,

29/07/2007 09:12:55

If UFO exists would they then not be IFO ?

21

Helen,

29/07/2007 09:18:07

What a waste of tax payers money!! Surely when there are people in developing countries who don't have access to healthy food, clean water and a decent education, then we are getting our priorities all wrong.
No-one has ever landed on the moon. It was all a big con by the yanks to boost their egos, and now we waste billions of pounds on worthless space travel. Let's sort the mess out on our own planet before we start looking for other planets to make a mess of.

22

Hambo,

29/07/2007 09:44:02

#27
If suc an object was a Big Identified Non Governmental Object it would be BINGO.

23

Hambo,

29/07/2007 09:45:46

#28
More seriously, there are billions of planets - what are the odds that we are the only one with intelligent life?

24

gfaBlack,

Time and space........ 29/07/2007 10:09:39

We are beind visited not by alians but by our offspring.

Time travel would nessesitate the need to travel through space. If time travel was possable in order for you to go back say 1 day you would need to goto where the earth was 24hrs ago. This would be 1000s of miles away from where it is now.

As the nearest exo solar planets are 10s of light years away the chance of a civilisation developing space travel capable of safely reaching us is very slim and then to just take a look and bugger off without saying hello well I find that harder to beleive than my theory of time travel.

Black.

25

gfaBlack,

Time and space........ 29/07/2007 10:10:28

Sorry the first line should read
'We are being visited....'

26

gfaBlack,

A sicle and a grin...Give me a gin 29/07/2007 10:45:33

Time trave.......cont
There have been UFO sigtings over Chenobbel (Don't know how to spel) and other major events in history
Mount st helens
WW1 and 2
Iraq
Probably the Titanic too but the obsever couldn't swim.
I suggest they are Historians from the future.

You may argue that they would change the course of history.. maybe they have how would we know..

You are being watched.....................................

27

warden99,

gorebridge hmmm mars 29/07/2007 10:47:03

I supose everyone to their own , definetly seen some strange if not weird shit in the skies , where they are space craft or planes i do not know , supose just like religion i need hard proof before i would trully believe.

28

gfaBlack,

Proof they exist is here> 29/07/2007 10:55:07

If im right these chaps from the future will know what I am about to reveal and they will try and st

29

Hat Man,

Dumfries 29/07/2007 10:57:41

#33 Methalions. I think that we have to agree that Dylans genius is proof of extra terrestial life.As he nearly wrote on his last album 'Modern Times'.'I'll be with you, when the wheel touches down'.

30

Heimdall,

Don't look up 29/07/2007 10:59:50

I saw a little green pie in the sky once until it hit me in the eye. I swear it was a little man that threw it but then he was 20 floors up and besides it was a foreign country where small is extra large. the real question is - WHY?

31

Heimdall,

Don't look up 29/07/2007 11:09:51

2. albanoch - God is alive and well and driving the turbo charged mark 3 version which is a limited edition that you can only buy if you have 3 galaxies 7 black holes and a wimpy triple cheesburger to buy it with (proof of provenance required) - once you have purchased this please leave good feedback and remember to stay in your seat and that no bumping is allowed.

32

Choosername,

29/07/2007 11:11:35

Thing In The Sky.

33

Gordon99,

Edinburgh 29/07/2007 11:18:08

And,.....is there any recording on Unidentified Flying Object, before we started flying????????????

G

34

Gizzabreak,

29/07/2007 11:48:09

#29. I think, in regard to extraterrestrial lifeforms, you mean "what are the odds that we are the only one with life?" With the way this planet's going, I question the use of the word "intelligent"!

35

Evan Owen,

Upper Gumtree 29/07/2007 11:50:51

Did someone mention intelligent life? On Earth??

The aliens have landed and they are now in government.

36

Vole,

29/07/2007 11:52:43

Look like seagulls to me.

Why has The Scotsman not added this article to their collection of other UFO stories? This site is not what it used to be. http://heritage.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=453

37

Swilly Tisher,

Loch Maree 29/07/2007 11:56:11

Yes, I sincerely believe in the existence of flying saucers. Not so many years ago , one hovered directly over Edinburgh's Bute House and deposited two aliens : Jack and Bridget McConnell. But the earthlings fought back , and - on May the 3rd 2007 AD - they were ousted , and sent spinning into an orbit of no return.

38

Mcsnagpile,

S.E.A 29/07/2007 12:04:27

I thought I had a visitation from outer space but it turned out to be the wife in curlers and face cream.
If there are superior intelligences in outer space, they will keep as far away from the chimps as possible, and just watch us on the telly.
By the way there are many religions that do not conflict with aliens existing including Buddhism so it is not the end. The pope can always use strategy B?

39

Andrew P. Palmer,

Boston, Massachusetts, USA 29/07/2007 12:17:34

Pretty crappy photos.

40

Heimdall,

Don't look up 29/07/2007 12:26:50

43. Methalions - there is an echo in here - listen my comment 38 was only ever going to be understood by humans - thats how we will sift out the aliens from the earthlings

41

MARINER,

WELLS,SOMERSET, ENGLAND 29/07/2007 12:28:52

I definitely believe that UFOs have landed in ENGLAND and dumped their rubbish in the Houses of Parliament and Westminster. One thing is for sure the politicians and top civil servants are not from this planet.

42

Heimdall,

Don't look up 29/07/2007 12:37:54

29. Hambo - intelligent left this planet thousands of years ago after they exhausted the supply of xzyzcht which enabes them to bend space and time and do the stuff they do. We are merely the bacteria equivalent left behind - not very clever since we only exist by killing other life forms and appear very low on the food chain. It is only us that calls us intelligent its a sort of denial thing which does not cut with the alien life that are busy observing us fascinated by our primitive delusions of grandeur.

43

eric,

29/07/2007 12:44:29

Says a lot for the Education system in England!

44

Nurse,

29/07/2007 13:03:22

For more evidence visit this sight its scary and interesting but is quite long try its an x employee of the US defence industry that mysteriously died aftyer making this video.
its on You Tube,

You Tube the UFO lecture by Philip Schneider

45

open minded,

cambs.. 29/07/2007 13:05:41

On duty on a bombing range on the Isle of Man in 1957 when this brightly coloured object appeared in the night sky. Greatly perplexed we called out the duty officer who established it was no star. He in turn called out the Station Commander, not the thing one would normally do at 11.30pm and Groupie made two calls. One to RAF Valley and the other to Luce Bay radar unit, Both reported having sight of the object but could not locate it on radar. Valley scrambled a Hunter which passed overhead in a few minutes. The pilot told us that he had clear vision of the object but it was out of his range. By this time it had been witnessed by RAF personnel in three different areas when it suddenly took off at great speed and disappeared. These sightings were taken seriously by the RAF and were far more common than was generally known.

46

eric,

Lothian 29/07/2007 13:10:33

64 Was it Blackpool illuminations shining across the irish sea:)

47

gyc,

Kuala Lumpur 29/07/2007 13:18:37

UFO is obviously (with no doubt) some high level military experiment/testing of advanced engineering technology aircraft accidentally 'sighted' by the ordinary folks (sightings are predominantly in USA and with Hollywood style dramatic experience to those who got abducted) or other more technologically modern countries. And the people sighting the UFO are usually the weird with less sophisticated mindset belonging to again the ordinary folks. NASA probably are in the quest of building an aircraft that can travel with the speed of light that can go beyond the moon to the next galaxy. Only by creating such technology can we (human) go beyond the moon. In order to perfect such technology, we need to experiment a lot of time. That's why accidental sighting with the like or shape of the aircraft that's not seen before in tis world take place.

48

lyinking,

In the land of the Yin Yan lights 29/07/2007 14:24:36

#7 right on bro
#23 LOL
#29 Who says we are the only one's with inteligent life???......who says we have inteligent life ???

49

AlecJ,

29/07/2007 14:25:18

#40 Gordon
Can I refer you to Isaiah chapter 6? He saw something which he explained in his terms. Can't comment on his state of mind, but the "cherubim" were definitely flying objects. It's not the only example from history, but one wich comes to mind from my Judeo-Christian background. Moslems would specify items recorded in the Q'ran and the Hadaths. Just because it is recorded in religious documents doesn't mean that there wasn't something there which could not be properly explained.

50

lyinking,

In the land of the Yin Yan lights 29/07/2007 14:29:18

#40 Read the Bible or Eric Von Daniken whatever you have on your bed side tale

51

Crewedaddy,

Running away from men with sticks 29/07/2007 14:30:40

#17 - Occam's Razor? So what what would you deduce from applying that maxim then?

#26 Helen, please lead by example and forego all the pointless expenditure from your own life. Like your computer that allows you to read this which is, after all, a complete and utter waste of time. The world needs romance and diversion. If these things prove to be real maybe they have a way of eradicating the things that bother you.

One of those pictures looks like someone got fooled by balloons released at a fete, the same way a cigar shaped one flying absolutely level across the rooftops of Tottenham Court Rd 25 years ago completely wrong-footed me to the point that I phoned the Evening Standard and reported it. I have seen one though; a completely unexplained manoeuvre by a light in the sky that was travelling towards me about 1am one morning about 10 years ago in South East London. I watched it get larger for about 20 seconds at which point it shot off at right angles towards the south west. I was used to watching planes stack for Heathrow in the area, none moved that fast. Military activity over London? Don't think so. About a month later there was a news report of an airliner in the area that had lost power and dived 15000 - 20000 ft before the pilot regained control. Appears I was a few seconds away from watching a plane crash on top of me. As far as Occam's Razor is concerned, this was by far from the simplest explanation but then, when you're dealing with something that is unidentified - what is simple?

52

kpm,

29/07/2007 14:31:01

51 The cat has obviously been faked .

53

Douglas,

Bathgate 29/07/2007 15:19:50

There are many among us, recent arrivals from a system near the Pole star.:o)

54

J M Milligan,

Scot/ USA 29/07/2007 15:55:39

Okay you lot back on board the ship...we've convinced them we don't exist.

55

,

29/07/2007 15:58:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
56

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/07/2007 16:41:17

My neighbours are UFOs from hell - unsociable f-fing orifices.

Had another sighting today but their motors aren't silent.

57

big chief toffee teeth,

my muff diving house in the barras 29/07/2007 16:49:47

there has to be some sort of intelligent life somewhere in this universe, there is none here that i can see... please beam me up scotty.

58

Joseph Capp,

United States 29/07/2007 17:11:42

Dear Mr. Horne
I can see by some of the answers many people don't have the faintest idea of the evidence out there on UFO video. In Mexico 23, 000 were sent into a TV show that asked for evidence. There are clear pictures of UFOs. To get them verified beyond reasonable doubt is expensive. However ,one clear photos negative which was examined by the US military has shown an extraordinary flying object... "tens of meters in diameter and evidently artificial, flew within the sight of two witnesses." .Kodak Monitor or Vigilant type of camera. This came under heavy debunking but to this day have stood up. The character of the couple who witnessed also has stood up to shameless attacks. The Trent's neighbors time and time again vouched for the characters of this couple. They never made a dime. Believe it or not received many hate calls.
One other point. Many pilots have witness UFOs with a type of corona discharge around the object, making it appear hazy. If this is true, some of the time, then taking a clear pictures of a fuzzy object wouldn't change the outcome.
Joseph Capp
UFO Media Matters

59

Smokey0541,

Lakewood, Colorado U.S.A. 29/07/2007 19:01:20

I'm ONLY 64 years old. I wonder if we will ever know the truth in my life time ?

LMAO

60

Single Malt Lad,

29/07/2007 19:41:50

If we knew what they were they wouldn't be UFOs. They would just be FOs which what all you ET freaks should do.

61

Jonggmaster,

Henderson, NV USA 29/07/2007 19:56:05

Time for a reality check.

#67 NASA is not developing a spacecraft that could travel at the speed of light, and which could go "to the next galaxy." NASA's progress in developing advanced rocket engines capable of heavy payloads has been very limited and unimpressive. But beyond the present situation are the following inarguable facts:
o The energy required to accelerate a mass to the speed of light is infinite. NASA has studied means to reach 20% of light speed and determined that extraordinary assumptions would have to be realized, not the least of which would be the high cost. And the result would be a mission to a nearby star that would take many thousands of years for the travellers.
o All applicable physics for beings of our size (5 or 6 feet) is already known. There cannot ever be "break-throughs" by any civilization--ours or one near a distant star--that would permit galactic or intergalactic travel of intelligent lifeforms. Exotic mathematical constructs (wormholes, etc.) will never be realized, even if otherwise possible as natural events or objects, for hyper-propulsive purposes because of the enormous implied concentrated energy requirement.

UFOs are either mis-identifications of man-made flight vehicles, or natural environmental and/or optical phenomena. They cannot be visitations from other worlds or galaxies. This is our world. We must make the best of it.

62

Friar Tuck,

Port Perry, Ontario, Canada 29/07/2007 19:56:08

Every star out there is a sun with planets orbiting it. What are the odds that there are no planets with life on them? Do you really believe that Earth is the only planet that has life? The real problem is that WARP drive has not yet been invented. Over to you Scotty!

63

Smokey0541,

Lakewood, Colorado U.S.A. 29/07/2007 20:39:27

How could anyone be so vain or arrogant as to believe we are GODs only creation ?

64

fearsidhe,

North Georgia, USA 29/07/2007 20:43:55

Och, we see 'em all the time on our nocturnal haggis hunts.

Also, the 5th photo in the column is easily identified as a Cessna 182... in a climbing turn to the left.

Now... if I can only explain the one that looks like Harry Potter....

65

ltstrtr,

usa 29/07/2007 20:58:39

YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING

66

,

29/07/2007 21:28:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 828326, Article id was mapped to record!
67

Single Malt Lad,

29/07/2007 22:27:08

#90 What the f*** has this got to do with this blog.
You must be on the wrong page.

68

TazTigress,

Tasmania 29/07/2007 23:10:18

Well all us Tasmanian's have two heads!!

69

whatsyourname,

mars 29/07/2007 23:18:22

# 85 The govertment has had space craft fo years like wise the people visiting us from other planets, how could yoou think other
and have you heard about the center of the earth, I know of some one whom is programed for things to come and she is taken in the night by a goverment space ship,

70

Cardinal Marinetti,

29/07/2007 23:39:51

THERE IS NO OTHER LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE. THIS IS THE ONLY WORLD, WHERE GOD HAS PUT US FOR HIS PURPOSE.

UFOs ARE THE WORK OF THE DEVIL AND YOU MUST IGNORE THEM! THEY ARE DEMONS AND WILL DESTROY YOU IF YOU ALLOW THEM.

PUT ASIDE YOUR CHILDISH THINGS AND WORSHIP THE ONE, TRUE GOD. THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND MOSES.

YOU WILL BE SAVED BY ACCEPTING OUR LORD, JESUS CHRIST INTO YOUR HEART!

71

whatsyourname,

mars 29/07/2007 23:51:39

# 94 take a pill

72

mildred,

philadelphia PA USA 30/07/2007 00:06:53

Maybe yes-maybe no. What's the problem? As for #94 above, why the paranoia? Only God is God and you may not presume to think you can speak for God. If there are multi universes, that's not for you to judge why. Your domain is not the domain of the ultimate creator. Read Emanuel Kant "On Noumena" and you'll understand that you can't understand. A fly can't be God and neither can you.

73

The Wizard,

OZ 30/07/2007 01:57:20

#92

Is that why they call you Tasmanian Devils?

74

Croman mac Nessa,

30/07/2007 05:22:03

94, ist. Tha Sinnsearachd 7 Ildiachd (an Rian Sinnsearach, a' Bheul-Aithris na Seanar) na's fèarr agus reusanta. Tha an crìosdachd creideamh na tràill, agus tha an crìosdalachd an cealgaireachd. Truis!

75

ufohunter,

Midlothian 30/07/2007 07:24:50

Yes UFOs are flying above our heads take a look at the midlothian ufos and ufos from around scotland.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SkywatcherScotland
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DvQe6kPQno

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OCcAWgUaek

76

Humphrey,

Bishopstoke, Hampshire 30/07/2007 08:39:08

The subject of the UFO is extremely complex, involving many peripheral subjects. Because of this, only informed opinions are worth anything. It is interesting to note that the following piece of philosophy was voiced over two thousand years ago:

To consider the Earth as the only
populated world in infinite space is
as absurd as to assert that in an entire
field of millet, only one grain will grow.

Greek philosopher Metrodorus – 4th Century B.C.

77

Harumph,

Harumphland 30/07/2007 08:39:12

Of course UFOs exist. By definition they are unidentified flying objects, which just means that the person seeing it cannot identify it. Whether or not they are of alien origin is really what the question should be....

78

dimitris,

Athens 30/07/2007 09:54:56

Oh yea they exist and the fly around us .My brother has seen three times Ufo and I believe him.
Only narrow minded people cannot see and undestand the issue.

79

wisdom,

Edinburgh 30/07/2007 10:28:51

We don't need to scan the skies for evidence of UFOS....We have benches full of Alien life forms in the Commons and the Lords.

80

Peace,

Florida-USA 30/07/2007 11:53:08

94, Why did god make the millions of galaxies, Astronomy lesson, there are more stars in the sky than sand on this earth......The bible says creator of the heavens and earth...why waste all that space, u think god would do that. This is just my opinion...If UFO's are real, never seen any, "still believe in UFO's and it doesn't sway my belief in god...another one of my opinions.....he created others millions of years before us...We are so young of a civilization or world, we probably start Wars with them also, or try...LOL

81

why can't I use my own name???,

30/07/2007 12:08:34

Post #59

xzyzcht, eh? Sound like 's***' if you say it quickly in an Aberdonian accent. Are you telling us they use s*** to bend space? Wow, so much for an advanced technological society! They should maybe come back here, for there's an abundance of it in government at the mo'!!

82

why can't I use my own name???,

30/07/2007 12:11:01

In fact, didn't Alistair Campbell use xzyzcht for many years with Labour?? :-)

83

Keith Williams,

State of Ohio, USA 30/07/2007 12:52:41

I think in all the vastness of space, as there is no end to it, there must be some intelligent life in it. ( there is certainly not much here) because people refuse to believe in other intelligent life elswhere.

84

Peace,

Florida-USA 30/07/2007 13:48:21

Yeah, some people still thinks the world is flat..

85

Heimdall,

Don't look up 30/07/2007 13:56:24

105. why can't I use my own name??? - the real name escapes me right now however xzyzcht is as good a name for something we do not have any more of - the point is we are the primitive life forms left to scavenge this earth once these high flyers have mined the best stuff for their space and time hopping enterprises and while we try to reason in our arrogance and self-importance the unimortant and irrelevant the real play is going on out of our reach and comprehension.

86

munnaboy3,

denton 30/07/2007 15:13:19

It appears that some of your readers have this lame idea that christianity is just another religion, and that if life outside of our world were discovered then there would be a down fall of all religions, including christianity. However that is not true at all because if your readers had given time to read the bible they would have discovered that God is everywhere in the univers, and that he is the author of life, not death, I have seen three ufos in my life time and it makes me think how awesome God is if in fact what we are seeing is life frome elsewhere. But if they are not life from out there or goverment aircraft then perhaps we should be a little more curios about what it is that we are seeing, if you had read the Bible then you would have discovered a prophecy given by Jesus himself that said that in the last days there would be signs and wonders in the haevens and the earth. Souds like God had all the bases covered before these people who think they are smarter than God ever came into being. So the next time you try to speak for christians know what your talking about before you open your mouth, then you wont sound so much Carl Marx.Maybe we should say that if life out there does exist and they visit us some day then every person who doesnt believe in God would be devistated and their whole sence of self importance would collapse in on itself .

87

Croman mac Nessa,

30/07/2007 15:28:30

110, just because your book says something doesn't make it so. Why don't you try applying the laws of Logic to that book and see how many contradictions you can find? Don't assert that there are none until you have had at least a year of Logic at university level and actually taken the statements of your book, translated them into Predicate Logic (or even just Propositional Logic, for that matter), and applied the Laws of Logic to them. And then if you have failed to find any (or more likely ignored the "difficult" bits of your book in an effort to avoid facing the Truth), let me know and I'll be happy to point them out for you. Mind, I could do it the now, but what would it benefit you for me to spoon-feed you? You need to learn how to reason and then use those skills. And then once you've done that, make sure you start examining texts from other ancient near eastern cultures, so you can learn about the sources of the myths in your book. Then expand your studies to other cultures, learn more and more about humanity's quest for, and experience of, the Divine, and as a result, you will eventually realise that in fact Christianity _*IS*_ just another Religion, and not a very healthy one at that!

88

david barnett,

lexington ky, 30/07/2007 16:49:18

if you guys will read from chapter 13 revelations you will see god speeking of chreatures,why the disscussions and confusion? read it.

89

Heimdall,

Don't look up 30/07/2007 17:07:58

111. Croman mac Nessa - First, Logic arose out of lack of faith or rather the misunderstanding of belief as a measure f human endeavours. Two - Logic itself avoids the truth not the belief systems of the world, Christianity for one at least actually faces the most difficult of concepts and deals with them without fiddling the data as logid does. Third Christianity as recorded in the Bible recognises and records many UFO and alien encounters and phenomena. Fourth no logic system can support the idea that Christianity is 'ust another Religion' and fifth, Christianity is aive and well it is just that some people (perhaps the more forward or more voluble) have failed it or maybe they are not so healthy.

90

Jonggmaster,

Henderson, NV USA 30/07/2007 18:14:57

I suppose I should not be surprised that religious people are attracted to pseudoscientific claims as flys are to a dab of honey. It appears that the "mystery" of UFOs offers to some a means to connect the physical universe with the notion of God. This is, of course, a mistake for those believers who interpret and promote the slightest and most obscure and ambiguous passages in the Bible as evidence for whatever aspect of current human society they are against or otherwise want to change. Physics does not address matters of religion. When theories are proposed regarding the instant of creation (at the so-called Planck time) or before, it is only then that science and religion might be considered to have parity. The great creation myths of the Bible and texts of other religions reflect the efforts of various groups attempting to achieve civilization through knowledge, laws, and community. Religious ideas helped. But it is these ideas that matter in the modern world, not the baggage and superstitions of nomadic people of the distant past. There is no place for religion in matters of science, although there is always a need for ethical tests and review.

As to other life in the Universe: There is no doubt, but probably few instances, of creatures like ourselves. Recognize that we have only existed in our present form for a few hundred thousand years--a moment in the Earth's 4.7 billion year history--and it is doubtful that we will be around much longer unless very, very significant social and political changes are made soon. Other civilizations may have already arisen and died before ours flourished, and others may come after ours. It does not matter that we do not yet hear a signal; intelligent life is out there. But I sometimes have trouble finding any here at home.

91

JKuusenjuuri,

Athens, Georgia USA 30/07/2007 18:28:43

While not ever having seen more than a bright globe descending over the woods myself, I have a sense that with thousands of sightings around the world, the nature of UFO's will soon be revealed, if what experienced UFOlogists are saying is true. The US has back-engineered a number of craft based on the Roswell craft it recovered. so a good deal of the vessels being seen may well be black-projects saucers from Area 51. The idea that the truth about there being creatures from other parts of the galaxy as somehow a threat to Christianity is so utterly absurd that I don't feel I need to add any more than 110, 112 and 133 and others have already so well expressed. And there is always the possibility that some of these beings and their vessels are from other dimensions!

92

molu kikes,

basel 30/07/2007 18:33:35

the notion of X files by the miltary 15 of uk goverment , the approved with naked black eyes by the MOD panels on bits ., have contributed to the paranormal existance of the ufos ,., well it is well adhesive that the ongoing was claried well that it was astar on such ., but it was adevice more sound and realiable like ufo ,.... these have proven it the existance of these machine .,

93

JKuusenjuuri,

Athens, Georgia USA 30/07/2007 18:50:13

Sorry, Heimdall of comment 113, I meant your comment not a future #133, as I am not that good at predicting what a future comment might contain. Perhaps I should take up remote viewing!

94

prophet54,

New Mexico, USA 30/07/2007 20:10:31

my fellow Human Beings, hello, just a note here, I am a citizen of the US. I do not agree with, nor endorse the IGNORANCE with which the current administration is aggressively pursueing
ITs' agenda. Now, to UFO's and their accompanying doubts and questions raised. They are real. They are here. They, pretty much, have always been here.
Some are biological entities, some are Human(earth manufactured) craft that have been back engineered by PRIVATE CORPORATIONS from crashed Extra-terrestial/Inter-Dimentional craft. Many,
many,many observed anomalies are actually Living Creatures, that exist and whose Biosphere is actually the Atmosphere of Earth. What do they feed upon? How about Earth and Atmospheric Energies? Lightning,EARTH Magnetic Energy Emissions(areas around convergence points of Ley Lines and active geological areas ie; volcanoes, subduction zones, etc.) There are also "Beings", who with just "thought",
are encompassed by biological "ships",
which can transport these "Beings" virtually any where or when. as time is only a concept of Earth Humans. There are also many Human civilizations, both within this VERSE, and in other Verses.
The UNIVERSE is not UNI. It is only our limited Perceptions and References that
limit the PROBABILITIES within this Verse.
Now, PROOF, WE NEED PROOF!
Look to your Hearts for Proof.
Your Mind will NEVER ALLOW PROOF.
Open your Heart, LOVE, COMPASSION, TRUTH
Then, perhaps, you may acheive UNDERSTANDING and KNOWLEDGE
PROOF may never come in a concrete, look at this, touch this, taste this, smell this, hear this type of display.
It is on an individual level that UNDERSTANDING WILL COME!

95

,

31/07/2007 01:02:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 831877, Article id was mapped to record!
96

Robert Burns,

Ocean Beach, San Diego, California, U.S.A. 31/07/2007 01:34:37

There is no reasonable doubt in my mind, but I will spare you the details. Instead, I must note that the absurd standard used, i.e., "we know of no evidence which substantiates the existence of these alleged phenomena" is the same standard that gave Bush and Blair credibility in Iraqi affairs. In other words, if you are intent upon believing that Bush-Blair have pursued Iraq without major political abuses or corruption, there is little hope of ever meeting your evidentiary hurdle no matter what evidence is proffered.

97

Croman mac Nessa,

31/07/2007 01:56:42

113, Heimdall, you wrote:

{First, Logic arose out of lack of faith or rather the misunderstanding of belief as a measure f human endeavours}

Excuse me? Logic was developed at least several centuries before the dawn of Christianity, by people like Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, none of whom can be described as having a lack of faith (though I wonder what your definition of that word is, because you haven't based it on the Greek word Pistis, the term used in the New Testament which gets translated into English as "Faith"; if you had, you would not be contrasting it with Logic like that), nor as having a misunderstanding of belief (there's that word there, which serves to support my assertion above about you not knowing what the words of Christianity mean; "Pistis" is *not* "belief," but rather "trust," which means, amongst other things, that it's not about rational knowledge/belief at all, but rather about relational knowledge/intimacy). Pythagoras, in fact, was considered the founder of not only a philosophical school of thought, but also of a religious movement.

You also wrote:

{Two - Logic itself avoids the truth not the belief systems of the world, Christianity for one at least actually faces the most difficult of concepts and deals with them without fiddling the data as logid does.}

Logic is all about calculating the meaning of language precisely in the search for Truth, and is not about fiddling data at all. Apparently, you don't have a very good definition of the word "Logic," either, because, at most, what you think you're talking about it Inductive Logic (and you're not doing a very good job of that, either), whereas Propositional Logic and Predicate Logic are forms of Deductive Logic. Christianity doesn't face difficult concepts, it invents "problems," projects them onto others, brainwashes those others into believing in the reality of the "pr

98

Croman mac Nessa,

31/07/2007 02:02:34

(continued)

You also wrote:

{Fourth no logic system can support the idea that Christianity is 'ust another Religion'}

Wait a minute, which is it? Is Logic about a "lack of faith or ... misunderstanding of belief," or is it something that can't support what you undoubtedly regard as a "lack of faith"? Of course it can support the idea that Christianity is just another Religion, because that's exactly what it is! I realise some Christians have been taught over and over again that their Religion is somehow unique and special, that it's not even a Religion at all, that it's "revealed" whilst all other Religions are "man-made," but any honest examination of the evidence tells a far different story.

You also wrote:

{fifth, Christianity is aive and well it is just that some people (perhaps the more forward or more voluble) have failed it or maybe they are not so healthy.}

I think you have misunderstood something again. When I described Christianity as "not a very healthy" Religion, I wasn't referring to the decrease in Church/Kirk attendance or the loss of members, or anything of that sort. I was referring to the concepts, the worldview, of the Religion itself, as being not healthy, as tending to promote sado-masochism, guilt, fear, Projection, and a host of other psychological dysfunctions.

99

prophet54,

New Mexico, USA 31/07/2007 03:21:03

Hello Proud American, In reference to your post 119. I may be Delusional, but I don't agree with torture. I may be crazy, but I swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America from ALL ENEMIES,
both Foriegn and DOMESTIC. I may not be able to AFFORD any MEDICATION, but this is my HOME, Mr. Proud American, and I KNOW people who live here are'nt all ignorant, beer swilling, wankers like yourself. Or maybe your one of the RICH, GREEDY, friends of Bush and Cheney. Heck, if I was one of you fellas, I'd be Dancing in the Streets. but, No, if you had any money you would be doing something decadent with it, not reading news in Scotland.
In any event, May Creation provide you all you need Proud American.
And I'll stand by what I stated in my previous post.
Maybe if you would pull your head out of your arse and have a look 'round,
you'ld have a different perspective.

100

darkdaz,

uk 31/07/2007 07:33:30

ok guys, i mean no disrespects, but after looking at the pictures closely. i cant see any ufo. as i think its just something flying to mkae it look like a UFO. i have also read the first page of the comments, but will read the rest later... i agree with that the goverment etc don't want to release the truth, there is life out in space, we know that. but there is always someone in the world, make something up and pretend its a ufo or someother space craft from outter space. there is no way that the first picture is a UFO, also the Johnny Walker School of Flying people always make something up to get the public going, but theres no point and yes i agree, because the school of flying doesn't like to admit the truth that there lieing. they always have there pictures blurred.

but all these other UFO sightings that are not near the flying school in scotland, there are just cover ups of sheets and card board put to gether on a plane.

Theres my comments anyway.. and they are just my appearens

Reguards Darkdaz

101

Miss Jean Brodie,

31/07/2007 11:41:49

#10 Joe Edinburgh Airport Fan Boy aka baa pr man - even has to get his sad wee Edinburgh Airport PR piece into a fun article - woah ho ho - whit a saddo !

102

JKuusenjuuri,

Athens, Georgia USA 31/07/2007 17:52:25

As a footnote to my comment #115, I add the following facts to sustantiate my statements:
! Brilliant globe seen north of Jefferson, GA, in NE part of the state (2201)
2.Roswell, New Mexico, well known incident of crashed UFO saucer recovered with bodies of aliens in July of 1947.
3. Area 51 is a "secret" U.S. Military installation in Nevada, near Las Vegas.

103

JKuusenjuuri,

Athens, Georgia USA 31/07/2007 18:40:21

Errata from #126:
sustantiate (sic) = substantiate
2201 = 2001

104

Jonggmaster,

Henderson, NV USA 31/07/2007 19:03:03

#126 I know that you are a believer, but I will nevertheless take this last opportunity to comment on your "facts."

o The brilliant globe--and thousands of other such sightings--can be explained by natural events such as meteorites, illuminated (by the Sun) high altitude weather balloons, ball lightning, aircraft, or optical phenomena involving ice crystals.
o The Roswell incident was, at most, the crash of a weather balloon and did not involve alien life forms. Advanced alien life forms cannot possibly visit planet Earth for the reasons discussed in my #85 post above. The Roswell myth is a money maker for various promoters, and feeds on the mistrust of government that is endemic within the American population.
o Area 51 is part of a large military range used for test flights of developmental aircraft. Observers from the perimeter may see things that they do not understand but are otherwise quite normal. Such observers may be honest folks but they, and even experts, are subject to the psychological need to explain what is seen in terms of patterns, models, and (yes) myths that satisfy the viewer's needs. Others want to make a buck from the tourists.

Finally, there is no "reverse engineering" of so-called "alien spacecraft." As someone who has worked in the aerospace industry in engineering management positions for over forty years, I am satisfied that such activities could not be held Secret or Top Secret for very long without public revelation. Workers have wives, children, and neighbors. The fact of the existance of a black program is nearly impossible to hide over a fifty year span. The idea of a reverse-engineering project of this type is merely fantasy.

The original Star Trek series was much more about human relationships than futuristic science. Star Wars was about themes of earlier literary battles between good and evil. Good science fiction is about human problems, not fanciful

105

Croman mac Nessa,

31/07/2007 21:30:40

85, Jonggmaster, wrote:

{All applicable physics for beings of our size (5 or 6 feet) is already known. There cannot ever be "break-throughs" by any civilization--ours or one near a distant star--that would permit galactic or intergalactic travel of intelligent lifeforms. Exotic mathematical constructs (wormholes, etc.) will never be realized, even if otherwise possible as natural events or objects, for hyper-propulsive purposes because of the enormous implied concentrated energy requirement.}

My memory's a bit fuzzy, but wasn't there some scientist a couple of hundred years ago who issued a fiat that there would be no further discoveries, that Science had discovered everything that could be known? Well, I guess television, radio, telephone, electric lights, microchips, flight, space travel, atomic energy, and all the other things that have been discovered since must have already been known by scientists at the time, and that they are not the "break-throughs" we all thought they were, huh? You certainly pronounce upon things discovered by the Empirical Method (itself little more than Inductive Logic, which cannot "prove" anything, but only give strong support for a conclusion, unlike Deductive Logic, in which, if the premises are true and the argument form is valid, then the conclusion *must* be true) from an absolutist perspective, which is what Logicians refer to as "self-referential incoherence."

106

D*,

PRK (Peoples Republic of Kalifornia) 01/08/2007 00:24:21

Actually, there is a report complete with a newspaper article from April 19, 1897 in Aurora Texas. Heres the link:

http://ufos.about.com/od/ufohistory/a/earlyreports_3.htm

107

Jonggmaster,

01/08/2007 00:27:15

#85 Sir, fiats are not the issue here, nor are exercises in logic--inductive, deductive, or fuzzy. It has to do with the need to achieve an extraordinarily high (relativistic) velocity in order to traverse vast distances between Earth and any particular nearby star, which may or may not have a planet sufficiently like our own with the capability to support life. At 1 AU, the escape velocity from the Sun is 94,200 mph. This is 0.014% of the speed of light in vacuum. A trip to a star 10 Ly away at this velocity would thus take over 70,000 years from the perspective of those witnessing the start of the journey. It does not appear that there are candidate planets within a 100 Ly distance from the Sun-Earth system.

Thusfar, we have sent five relatively small (a couple of tons or less) spacecraft to and beyond the edge of the solar system. Their designs benefited from the fact that they did not have to store fuel to enable deceleration at a target star/planet. Fuel is the energy source for propulsion, housekeeping, and life support. It may be chemical or nuclear, but it represents a fundamental limitation for all space missions--even those utilizing electric propulsion.

The game changes dramatically as higher velocities are sought. As I noted earlier, the energy required to achieve a large fraction of c begins to asymptotically approach infinity. There are many other physical reasons why such missions are essentially impossible.

As to my assertion that all applicable physics at our dimension is known: this is a position that all mainstream physicists would agree with. I did not say, and I did not mean, that there were not new things to be found at sub-atomic sizes or at the extremes of the Universe. But let me be precise. Nuclear energy sources for propulsion will never be more than heat sources for thermoelectric devices or thermodynamic cycles. Sequential controlled fissile explosions for acceleration, or fusion engines utilizing int

108

gyc,

Kuala Lumpur 01/08/2007 01:57:45

Well said.... To defy the notion of discovering the nearest habitable (inhabitable) solar systems in the current science & technology capability is akin to being rational and intelectually proper. Nevertheless, with human ingenuity and intuitiveness, we will not know the possibility of a scientfic discovery beyond our latest compreshensive understanding of space/galaxy travelling. I say, by the supreme being grace (our creator aka the technologically advanced alien) we may be able to travel beyond our mindset and territorial boundaries and to the 70000 light years away planet. There could be alien in this universe but they will not be showing themselves like some movies (insects like aliens who go about creating destruction to mankind in order to rule the world which more like some political leaders in WWII) or fiction books we know about. In conclusion, our logic will say that in hundreds of years time, we will do space travelling beyond our solar systems

109

Jonggmaster,

01/08/2007 03:01:29

#132 I appreciate your optimism, but I do not share it. I am quite sure that there will be no manned missions to Mars despite the occasional press releases from the U.S. government. It would be a suicide mission for the astronauts because of radiation exposures, and would not meet necessary cost/benefit (discovery and political) criteria. A Moon base would have similar difficulties in finding support. Robotic probes work just fine at much lower cost, and can be made to gather desired data.

Keeping astronauts alive and sane in space is a very big deal. Self preservation takes up most of the time of occupants of the International Space Station. Equipment unreliability and system complexity force continuing monitoring and repair. The sound environment due to motors and pumps is barely tolerable. The ISS is a large, creaking platform that is unsuitable for scientific measurements requiring a stable base. Beyond a few microgravity experiments, little useful science has resulted from the investment.

Flight above the protective Earth magnetosphere is always immediately dangerous for humans. Solar flare events and cosmic ray showers result in high doses for the astronauts. Protective shielding is necessarily minimized for reasons of weight and mission realizability.

The space program attracted great people fifty years ago. Talented, creative, and dedicated scientists and engineers. This is not often true today. The better students seek challenge in other technology areas. Unstable funding, insincere politicians, and unrealistic mission goals and statements offer little incentive for investment in mammoth space missions. It is not sufficient to say that we climb (Everest) because it is there.

Folks younger than me should look toward solving the great problems that the world must now face. The answers are not in distant galaxies. They are nearby in young minds.

110

Humphrey,

Bishopstoke, UK 01/08/2007 09:42:38

In 128 above Jonggmaster seems convinced that the Roswell incident was nothing but a balloon, and states this as a fact. The fact is that the balloon theory was refuted long ago. Initially, the 'explanation' for Roswell was given as a 'weather balloon', this was later changed to the well known Mogul balloon explanation. This seemed a better cover-up than the weather balloon as Mogul was supposed to be secret at the time. However, the Mogul launchings were featured in several American magazines, and was also featured in the film (sorry, movie) entitled 'On The Threshold of Space'. Not a very well kept secret.

It is most unlikely that the personnel of the 509th Bomb Group at Roswell (of Enola Gay fame) would be fooled by something so mundane as a balloon. It has been shown that there were two crashes in the area in 1947, one at Corona and the other on the Plains of San Agustin, the wreckage being taken to Roswell as the nearest AFB. The areas were scrupulously cleared of all vestiges of debris by personnel under heavy guard. Rather a curious procedure for a balloon. The intelligence officer at Roswell, Major Jessie Marcel handled some of the material, and it can be reasonably assumed that he would have recognized material from a balloon. Also, the evidence from the local undertaker (sorry, mortician) Glenn Dennis is conclusive. The book 'The Roswell Legacy' by Jessie Marcel Jr is available this month, and will undoubtably absolve his father from the unjustified ridicule he received.
Research has also shown that no Mogul launchings were recorded that would tally with time of the incident.

Conclusion is that the balloon 'explanation' can be thrown into the dustbin (sorry, trash can).

As for keeping critical events secret from the world and his wife it is has been demonstrated that this is entirely possible. The Manhattan project involved around 175,000 workers spread over 30 sites in America, and this was kept secret from late 1939

111

Jonggmaster,

01/08/2007 18:13:40

#135 Sir, in consideration of your first paragraph, I must observe that you dismiss one balloon flight explanation by introducing a second proposed balloon flight explanation with the implication that both are not true without offering evidence for a third alternative. Instead, in the second paragraph you revert to the standard tabloid explanations which typically depend on the delayed testimony of a single witness (sometimes supported by relatives or friends). Well at the time (the 1950s) there was great effort expended on balloon flights with classified payloads. These activities moved over in the 1960s to the space program where the work continues today. Secrecy was and is important, and those with their noses pressed to the glass trying to figure it all out are meant to be confused. That is the purpose of disinformation.

Continuing, I must point out that the Manhattan Project was known at the time to both the Germans and Russians. Agents (e.g., Haakon Chevalier) of the latter attempted penetration of the program, and later Klaus Fuchs revealed H-bomb details to the Soviets. There were others along the way who were inside and traitorous. All secrets are subject to human weakness and betrayal. Those that matter to civilization are the most vulnerable. But it takes a technically credible channeler (like Fuchs was) to lead the public to the prize. The UFO community has not produced such persons. When Lawrence Krauss, Steven Weinberg, or Stephen Hawking buy into the UFO conspiracy narrative, so will I.

Finally, reverse engineering. You seem to not be familiar with the development of solid state physics in the post-WWW II years. Many physicists, chemists, and engineers, working in academic and industrial laboratories around the world, attacked the general desire of replacing delicate, energy consuming, and unreliable vacuum tubes. In communications, it was particularly desired to improve the signal-to-noise performance of amplifiers and o

112

Croman mac Nessa,

01/08/2007 18:54:54

131, Jonggmaster, you wrote:

{As to my assertion that all applicable physics at our dimension is known: this is a position that all mainstream physicists would agree with. I did not say, and I did not mean, that there were not new things to be found at sub-atomic sizes or at the extremes of the Universe. But let me be precise. Nuclear energy sources for propulsion will never be more than heat sources for thermoelectric devices or thermodynamic cycles. Sequential controlled fissile explosions for acceleration, or fusion engines utilizing intersteller free hydrogen, are pipe dreams. I will not waste bandwidth on other Hollywood schemes.}

The Laws of Physics are not static; new theories are constantly arising, everything from "string theory" to "brane theory," some of which may have bearing on "applicable physics for beings of our size." Your assertion is therefore not worthy of the absolute certainty (see Wittgenstein's _Über Gewißheit_ for some clarity on the meaning of the word) with which you seek to invest it.

As for the rest of what you've said in the quote above, it seems to me that you are thinking "inside the box" of current understandings, and denying that there may be other possibilities which the current scientific viewpoint has yet to consider. "Think outside the box." It's the way forward.

113

Jonggmaster,

01/08/2007 20:05:41

#137 You seem well versed in matters of philosophy, and that may be the problem here. Physics and philosophy began to diverge several hundred years ago. While there are certainly are proposed philosophies of science, none harbor the notion that all things are possible until absolute proof against the possible is proffered. It is sophmoric to believe that the future will hold keys to advancements that otherwise are considered fanciful and bizarre. It is similarly unserious to make claims for theoretical constructs that researchers themselves do not make.

In the this exchange of posts with you and others, I took the opportunity to review notes for a UCLA course in Spacecraft Design given by a series of invited lecturers in the early 1960s. The topic of relativistic velocities was considered by D. B. Langmuir (not the Nobel laureate), who considered both fissile and fusion engines. His conclusion was that it is a topic that offered no hope for specific reasons, but he pointed out that such velocities are not needed for the exploration of the solar system. This has proven true. And as a technologist who retired as a Chief Scientist for a division of a Fortune 500 company, I do assert that no new applicable physics has been since found or hinted at. The work you refer to is experimentally beyond confirmation because the required energies begin to approach that of the "Big Bang." Again, tossing around terms like "brane" does not add to the discussion. Thinking out of the box often means or suggests that one may not really know what is in the box. (Sorry if I sound snarky.)

114

Jonggmaster,

01/08/2007 20:11:24

With regard to my post #136, I am sorry #135, I meant to reference #134. My apologies.

But #135, the joke would have been better if you had noted that I live near Las Vegas, a stone's throw [sic] from Roswell. Just sayin'....

115

Croman mac Nessa,

02/08/2007 03:54:03

138, Jonggmaster, while proponents of various forms of Natural Philosophy began to get uppity a few centuries ago (and renamed their field "Natural Science"), the fact remains that Empiricism is but one school of thought in Epistemology, and that, regardless of what Epistemological camp one falls into, Logic is still the purview of Philosophy. Indeed, Logic and Mathematics are the *only* "pure Sciences." Logic, or rather one type thereof (Inductive Logic), *is* the method of the Empiricists who now regard their disciplines as separate from the Mother of the Sciences (Philosophy), and Speculative Philosophy is also still part of Physics (hence the cosmological theories to which I have referred above). Perhaps you should look into "brane theory" ("brane" there is short for "membrane," and is a newer cosmological theory than "string theory"), and consider the possibilities before you poo-poo them. As to "the notion that all things are possible until absolute proof against the possible is proffered," that is nothing more than a straw man in an attempt to dismiss what I'm saying, because I never said, nor did I insinuate, anything of the sort. Besides, using the "Empirical Method," *proof* is by definition impossible. You'll be able to provide _strong support_ at best with the "Empirical Method." That's neither here nor there, really, because the point is that I'm not suggesting that anyone needs to proffer "proof" or even strong support in the case of a negative. I'm just saying that your pontificating is reminiscent of that bloke who declared that Science had discovered everything that could be discovered already, some centuries ago, and that if you were somehow able to come back some centuries hence, you (like he, if in a similar situation could somehow come back today) would very likely have to eat your words. In short, the making of absolute statements in

116

Jonggmaster,

02/08/2007 06:25:28

#140 Croman mac Nessa, I must first say that I have enjoyed the exchange of posts with you even though, from my viewpoint, much of it has been off topic. I seldom join a a blog thread. When I do it is to attack instances of promotion of pseudoscience--not to change the minds of the true believers, but to offer an alternative story for folks who might follow the thread without entering the frey.

I think that we are now talking past one another. I am a practical man. I have worked on teams charged with reducing the weight of spacecraft so that they can lift off the pad. Over fifty years, unmanned satellites grew from 100 to 1000 kg in size, with a few notable exceptions. Rocket science focused on reliability rather than increased lift capability. Interplanetary probes are small and compact, reflecting vehicle limitations. All the while, costs grew enormously and taxpayer support grew fickle. And development dollars tended toward low thrust electric propulsion concepts.

Your consideration of the possibilities of exotic means to the achievement of a "theory of everything" simply has no relevance to the problem of moving a large mass at relativistic velocities. The only common factor between the two ideas is the enormous energy required for either realization. Optimism about mankind's future is fine, but it must be informed by known science. Sure, pre-Renaissance declarations about the boundries of knowledge are quaint and fooloish. But it was all about the observed world, and we now know how little was understood about the world at that time. Well, we have come a long way, and we have settled essentially all of the questions of physics applicable to matters of transportation, including space flight. Physics today is concerned with the unobservable world (very small dimensions), objects that may be revealed at exceedingly great energy levels, and fields that appear contained in topologies of 10 and 26 dimensions. The reason this

117

M Smith,

The Moon 02/08/2007 12:10:03

Seems to me (just being a mere mortal and not able to follow much of those last few posts - can you guys not keep yer comments to 'geeks.com' or something?) that its incredibly arrogant to assume that we are the only planet to evolve life in a Universe of hundreds of billions of stars. I also believe that any intelligent form of life which managed to stumble across our wee planet would be daft to try to stop here for a chat. Why would an alien life form come to a planet where we cannot live in harmony with our own race, let alone any of the other life forms on the planet?

As for travel and the incredible distances involved, if I understand things correctly, as relative speed increases, relative time slows down. Someone (or thing!) travelling towards us at speeds of 0.707 x speed of light would actually only take half as long to get here as it would appear from our perspective. Coupled with possible advances in cryogenics and reanimation, it might be possible for a life form to travel the vast distances required. Of course 'he' may not be able to return to any family left behind because they would have aged at a much faster rate.

Also, we base the likelihood of being able to travel such vast distances on the length of time it might take to travel when compared to the average lifespan of a HUMAN! There is no evidence to suggest that the average lifespan throughout the universe is 90 Earth years. Some alien somewhere might take this long to blink! EVERYTHING is relative.

118

M Smith,

The Moon 02/08/2007 12:26:37

...and as for God. I find it incredible that such a large population of the Earth have the 'faith' to believe so vehemently in something for which no physical evidence exists. I appreciate that this is what 'faith' is - blindly following what you've been told because this info has been passed down through generations and so its easier to assume that it is true than to face ridicule or chastisement for questioning it - but it seems a bit mental to me. I appreciate that the human brain finds such concepts easy to accept and maybe even needs the idea of a God to deliver some sense of purpose to life, but it still seems nuts to just accept this 'faith' because it's what your Priest/Vicar/Pastor/Mum/Dad or anyone else has told you. The earliest parts of the bible were written hundreds of years after Jesus' death so to accept anything in it as verbatim is like accepting accounts about David Blaine's magic tricks as verbatim, after these have been passed down verbally through 10 generations.

Seems to me like people have placed their 'faith' in a 2,000 year game of chinese whispers. I know that numbers in churches have been dwindling for decades and I am eternally (well, not really 'eternally', only up until the time that I snuff it) grateful. Hopefully this is an indication that, as a race, we're now growing out of this foolish infantile behaviour. Its probably not helping that the West is forcing half of the Earth to take up extremist positions though.

119

Croman mac Nessa,

02/08/2007 12:56:03

143, M Smith, you wrote:

{I find it incredible that such a large population of the Earth have the 'faith' to believe so vehemently in something for which no physical evidence exists. I appreciate that this is what 'faith' is - blindly following what you've been told because this info has been passed down through generations and so its easier to assume that it is true than to face ridicule or chastisement for questioning it }

Ah, but that's not what "faith" actually means. Granted, that understanding is rather common within the Church and the Kirk, which contributes to the extremism to which you have referred, but it's not a proper definition. English doesn't have a verbal form of "faith," so the verb "believe" was used to translate the term when used as a verb in the original Koinê Greek (the language in which the "New Testament" was originally written), and that encouraged the misunderstanding. "Pistis" is the noun ("faith"), and "pisteuô" is the verb ("I 'faith'," if you will). These words are not about intellectual belief in some proposition, but instead are about relational trust in a person (or "Person"). Perhaps the Christian Clergy share in the blame for the distortion of the meaning (it does seem that such a misunderstanding would reflect the vested interests of such persons), but I must admit that I've only ever heard Christian Clergyfolk try to explain the actual meaning of the words in the original Greek, with a few less than worthy examples in the fundamentalist camp bent on promoting a specific passage from "the Epistle to the Hebrews."

That all said, I think my earlier comments should provide evidence of my views of Christianity and my preference for a Heathen Sacred Tradition, but I should also note, for the record, that my position is not a reactionary one; viz, I was not raised as a Christian, but was instead exposed to nume

120

Humphrey,

Bishopstoke, UK 02/08/2007 15:01:00

Reference comment 136

First I must apologise for the incorrect spelling of Major Jesse Marcel, just a typo error. I couldn't mention the names of all the witnesses involved, there are far too many.

Jonggmaster, you say that I 'introduced' the second proposal balloon explanation without providing a third alternative. In actual fact it was the military that introduced both balloon explanations; I simply recorded them in my comment. As for offering evidence of a third alternative, this evidence was spread over a field 3/4 mile long by about 300 ft wide, complete with a 400 ft gouge. That was a balloon and a half.

One important point about the Mogul balloon launchings is that they were not treated with the same type of security that was present at Roswell. For example, Mogul launch No.7 crashed off course, and some of balloon train was stolen by civilians. The military showed no interest in tracing the thieves. Mogul launch No.6 was found by a rancher who easily identified it as a balloon and knew who to contact. The next day a couple of men turned up for its collection. The military and security forces were conspicuous by their absence, but not so with Roswell.

Yes, I did know that foreign agents and traitors infiltrated the Manhattan Project, but all they had really was guesswork. In general, the Manhattan Project was kept a secret notwithstanding the number of personnel involved. By the way, you left out the Rosenbergs.

Dear me, so the UFO community has not produced anyone technically credible!! I will not list the many names that spring to mind, si I will be content by just naming Professor J Allen Hynek. Drs Jacques Vallee, James McDonald, John Mack, and Leo Sprinkle, not forgetting historians David Jacobs and Richard Dolan. There are many more, and I think it would be agreed that all these people are certainly 'credible'.

There is obviously a misunderstanding regarding my comment on reverse-engineering and the tr

121

Jonggmaster,

02/08/2007 23:49:16

Some responses:

#142 I do not believe that anyone writing in this thread has denied the existance of intelligent life elswhere in the Universe. I certainly don't. The issue is whether or not our respective civilizations can communicate with one another. I happen to believe that if we maintain a continuous effort to hear the signal of such civilizations over the next 5,000,000 years or so, then we might determine that we are not alone. But travel such distances? No.
#142 In commenting about relativistic time dilation for the hypothetical traveler, you have not considered the time required to accelerate to a cruising speed of 0.707c, or the comparable time to decelerate from that speed to a managable velocity. Aside from adding to the total time of the journey, the average time dilation effects on the travelers would be much less, and they would be much older than you suggest at the end of the journey.
#142 It is amazing that the experience people have with machinery and electronics does not deter their acceptance of the idea that similar technologies will last and operate for hundreds or thousands of years with no maintenance or repair. Somehow these machines, and the spacecraft that contain them, operate independently of the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which states that all things move from order to disorder (wear out).
#145 J. Allen Hynek and Jacques Valle'e are not very good examples of proponents of extra-terrestrial visitations. Hynek defended his UFO investigations as a legitimate activity, but he always expressed doubt about alien visitors; Valle'e has taken the same tack but has introduced speculations on the possibility of visitations by beings in/from parallel universes. In doing so, he goes beyond phenomena to speculate about psychological and political threats to our civilization. This erodes his credibility, if any is left after posing such visitations in the manner of a purely intellectual exercise. Let me

122

Humphrey,

Bishopstoke, UK 03/08/2007 19:15:18

#146. I have noticed that a number of comments have been made regarding the impossibility of travelling intersteller distances. This is obviously true as regards OUR present scientific knowledge, but not if we are talking about somebody else's scientific knowledge. The advances that have been made by us in th last 70 years for instance have been enormous, so what will we be doing in say 200 years time? (Assuming that we haven't blown ourselves to bits by that time). Very likely all our textbooks on physics will have been rewritten in the light of a new understanding of phenomena that at present is unexplainable.

An alien race could easily be thousands of years ahead of us, and their science would be nothing short of magic to us poor earthlings. As Allen Hynek once remarked, 'if the ceiling of our science is below the floor of their science, we might just as well forget any chance of an understanding'. By the same token, a stone-age man would be completely mystified by a box of matches.

It follows that UFOs cannot be ignored and dismissed as impossible just because they do not fit into OUR present scientific framework. Of course there is always the parallel universe, theorised by the not so credible Jacques Vallee. The great philosopher Gurdjieff and later Ouspensky also postulated the parallel universe theory. The trouble is that very few realise the above because as Gurdjieff taught, MANKIND IS ASLEEP.

Reference again to the transistor, I suppose I could make a claim that I made a chance discovery of this effect. When I was a young lad in the late 1920s I used to make crystal sets for listening to the radio in those days. These used the 'cats whisker' and they worked OK. For detection and rectification I used either a sugar cube or a piece of potato, (Yes Mr Jonggmaster, I even got rectification from a piece of potato - doubtless that is missing from all those library reference books). Then I got the idea of of adding an extra co

123

Humphrey,

Bishopstoke, UK 03/08/2007 19:22:03

In my last paragraph of #147, suppession should read suppression.

124

Jonggmaster,

03/08/2007 22:46:19

#147 Humphrey, the problem with your speculation about the achievements of other advanced alien civilizations is that it ignores the processes that are necessary for advancement. When the physics of Kepler, Newton and Einstein, aided by the mathematics of Lagrange and Hamilton, are obtained, there is little reason to pursue alternative schemes applicable to transportation problems. This statement assumes, of course, that the laws of physics are uniformly applicable throughout the Universe--a position comfortably taken by all mainstream physicists. In our world, available capital--monetary and intellectual--flows toward high energy physics, which cannot alter the available means for interplanetary or interstellar travel. It's effect is to produce work on a completely different set of problems at a vastly different place in space-time. But the benefit will be improved understanding of the Universe, not a patent for a Warp Drive. I believe this history and this process is a replication of what has/will occur in other advanced alien civilizations.

All things are not possible; some things are. Even some things that many might consider fantastical, such as control of planetary climate. My pet project is how the pressure building under Yellowstone National Park in the USA can be relieved before the next super-volcanic explosion. I have personally witnessed how Lake Yellowstone is tipping and spilling at its southern end. In the future, a volcanic release similar to those in the past for this hot spot will spell the end of the USA (if the USA still exists by then). But perhaps that might be a good thing?

125

Humphrey,

Bishopstoke, UK 05/08/2007 21:22:15

#149. Joggmaster. I think the assumption that the laws of physics are uniformly applicable throughout the universe can be open to question (only a small amount of matter that should be in the universe is known to us anyway; where is the rest of it?). It is true that the majority of mainstream physicists subscribe to this notion, but there are some brave souls that take a different viewpoint. These are brave because they are prepared to risk their reputation, credibility and livelihood. They remind me of Galileo who was summoned befor the Inquisition in Rome for having the audacity to say that the planets went round the sun.

There are reasons for this attitude to physics. In the myriad of UFO reports I have accummulated, there are several cases where a credible witness has stated that a solid appearing object (which left ground traces of its visit) did NOT make a conventional departure. It vanished on the spot, i.e. it decreased in size until it just wasn't there. This effect is completely outside our laws of physics. These objects have also been known to bend light beams, once again outside our laws. The situation is that these UFOs, whatever they may be, are demonstrating that they have the ability to manipulate time and dimensional space.

The work of Dr Joe Lewels on the holographic universe has shown that sub-atomic particles were found to disobey the known laws of physics set up by Newton and Einstein. Later Dr Bohm discovered a world in which time and space ceased to exist, in which sub-atomic particles communicated with each other faster than the speed of light, violating Einstein's theory of relativity. Also, at a meeting of the high energy astrophysics division of the American Astronomical Society at Pasadena, it was noted that a galaxy had been discovered that was moving faster than the speed of light. (Reported in the New York Post of October 25th, 1972).

In view of these items and effects it seems that someone or somethin

126

The Wizard,

OZ 06/08/2007 02:10:01

I saw one talking to a petrol pump outside Tynecastle.

Mind you, thats not unusual in that area.

127

laughing,

EDINBURGH 06/08/2007 15:13:17

As usual the government use the press to ridicule ufos and the sheep follow, there are lots of photos that are crystal clear there are statements from pilots ,police officers from air traffic controllers to Joe bogs on the street but just stop and think about it ,if people who say the have seen a ufo have a job such as pilot and you believe the government so called officials who ridicule them are being truthful then why do you trust them to take you to your holiday should you not be to frightened to fly knowing a nutter is fling your aircraft or a nutter is guiding it down to the ground at the airport, or the RAF pilot flying a multi million fighter loaded with weapons scary stuff if you believe the government is being honest ,as said lambs to the slaughter, think about it


 

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