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Poorest and hardest working students will suffer under new tax

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Published Date: 02 June 2008
THE SNP's flagship local income tax policy suffered a new blow last night, when it emerged it would bring tens of thousands of the poorest students in Scotland into the local tax net for the first time.
Alex Salmond, the First Minister, has championed local income tax (LIT) as a fairer alternative to council tax because it is based on the ability to pay.

But the Scottish Government has admitted that up to 55,000 full-time students – who do not pa
y council tax at present – would end up paying LIT.

Student leaders warned that the tax would hit only the poorest – those who do not get financial help from their parents and have to work through the year to cover the cost of their studies.

This is just the latest setback for the SNP's key policy of changing the way local services are paid for. It follows warnings from a number of academics last week that the tax would be unconstitutional and illegal.

And yesterday, Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, made it clear the UK government would not release £400 million a year in council tax benefit payments if council tax was abolished in Scotland. The Scottish Government had been relying on this cash to cover the shortfall between the amount raised in council tax and the amount due to be raised under LIT.

Student leaders have been worried about the impact on their members ever since the policy was unveiled earlier this year. But it was not clear how many would be affected by the tax, until John Swinney, the finance secretary, revealed in a parliamentary answer that a quarter of all full-time students in Scotland – 55,000 – might have to pay the new tax.

He said the government estimated three-quarters of students would be exempt from the tax, leaving the rest liable to pay.

The threshold for the LIT would be £5,435. Anybody earning more than that would have to pay the new tax.

According to student leaders, there are thousands in this position. Most work full time – 35 to 40 hours a week – during the 16 to 18 weeks' holiday they get each year and then fill in, working for 16 hours a week or so, during term time, taking them well over Mr Swinney's threshold.

The SNP's estimate is also based on students earning £5 an hour, just above the £4.60 minimum hourly wage for 18 to 21-year-olds, but many students earn more than that, particularly if they can secure office work during their holidays.

James Alexander, the president of the National Union of Students in Scotland, said the tax, which is supposed to be progressive and based on ability to pay, would end up hitting the poorest students the hardest. He said: "This is a tax which is specifically designed to ensure that those with lower incomes pay less. Not only do students make up one of the poorest elements of society, but the poorest students will be hit the hardest.

"They are the ones who have to work the most hours to cover the costs of their studies. Those from better-off backgrounds and who get money from their parents will not have to pay it."

He added: "Students don't work to earn money to have a cosy life – they work to survive. Every hour they work is an hour less to spend on course work."

Mr Swinney admitted yesterday that some students would have to pay, but he insisted they would have to work long hours to have to pay the new tax.

"A student would have to be working 21 hours each week for 52 weeks in the year before they would be in any way liable for local income tax," he said.

"The local income tax is a fair system reflecting individual ability to pay. What we have done for students is we have abolished the graduate endowment."

But Claire Baker, Labour's spokeswoman on higher education and student support, said:

"It really begs the question what do the SNP have against students? They promised to replace loans with grants – they didn't. They promised to write off student debt – they haven't.

"And since being elected, we have seen proposals to restrict where students live, changes to the means test that hit many poor students currently at university, and now a local income tax that will ask tens of thousands of students to find yet more money to fund the SNP's other priorities."

Murdo Fraser, the Scottish Conservatives' education and lifelong learning spokesman, said the SNP should abandon the policy. "The case for a 'local' income tax, which is in reality a nationally set tax, rather than a reduction of the council tax, is unravelling by the day," he said.

Working long hours to make ends meet

NIKI Ralphs has to work for the whole year just to make ends meet as a student.

The 21-year-old from Luton is in the third year of a five-year structural engineering and architectural design course at Heriot-Watt University.

She gets a student loan of about £3,000 a year. After tuition fees (because she is an English student in Scotland), she is left with £2,000 for everything else: rent, food, travel, heating and books.

During term time, Ms Ralphs works as a supervisor in the student shop at Heriot-Watt. Her usual shifts mean she works 18 hours a week, but she often does more, pushing this total up to 25 hours a week. She gets £6.64 an hour, giving her between £119.52 and £166 a week.

In the holidays, Ms Ralphs works even harder. She returns to Luton, where her parents live, and works full-time in an off- licence.

There, she works a basic 40-hour week, but again often does more hours.

Last year she earned about £7,000 in total from both her jobs, about £1,500 more than the proposed local income tax threshold of £5,435.

She said: "It's not as if I spend my time socialising. We are expected to do 40 hours for our course and I work 18 hours a week on top of that. When I'm not working, I'm studying."

'Let down' by the party that wooed them a year ago

CLUTCHING champagne glasses while throwing their mortar boards into the air, they looked like any group of students celebrating graduation day.

But these students were massed outside the Scottish Parliament in a protest about politicians who have consistently vowed to make life easier for students but who many believe have failed to deliver.

Before last May's elections, the SNP targeted the student vote, promising a return to free education, to reintroduce grants and to pay back graduates' student loans.

All they have done so far is to scrap the graduate endowment – a one-off fee of around £2,000 to be paid at the end of a degree.

But the poorest graduates were exempt and the majority of the rest simply took out another student loan to cover it.

Student leaders welcomed its demise but stressed more needed to be done.

NUS Scotland published a report in April which showed thousands of students had considered dropping out of their courses because of financial hardship. The trend was particularly marked in students from poorer backgrounds.

NUS Scotland organised the champagne protest to highlight fears that university education is becoming the preserve of the rich, as affluent families subsidise their children but less well-off students are forced to take on paid employment during terms as well as holidays.

Now, with the news that the proposed new local income tax would hit those students who work the hardest, many who voted for the SNP are beginning to feel let down.

Fiona Macleod

BACKGROUND

JOHN Swinney unveiled the SNP's local income tax plans on 11 March, immediately running into a barrage of opposition from the Conservatives, Labour, business leaders and some unions.

The Liberal Democrats also objected because the scheme does not allow councils to set the tax rate locally.

The opponents agreed that the current council tax was not perfect, but warned there were major problems with the proposed new scheme.

They claimed the proposed local income tax would not raise as much as the council tax, leaving an annual shortfall of £280 million.

On top of this, the UK government has made it clear it would not continue to pay council tax benefit if the council tax was abolished in Scotland, leaving another £400 million gap in the SNP's plans.

The plan was also criticised for failing to tax unearned income, allowing wealthy people whose income was not from a salary to escape the tax.

A series of academics also became involved in the debate, warning that the entire plan might be illegal and unconstitutional under the current devolved system.









Page 1 of 1

 
1

Senga Jean,

02/06/2008 00:19:06
A smell of dung pervaded the air. This story does not require serious response.
2

,

02/06/2008 00:34:52
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3

,

02/06/2008 00:36:26
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4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 00:46:11

Senga Jean @#1,,

Your Funny!

That will be the,..'Bird-Flu' I presume,? :)

Or in this case the,..'Salmond-Flu'!
5

Soosider,

Glasgow 02/06/2008 00:56:02
So people who use the services will have to make a contribution to their costs, rather than those who have a property.
If you really want to see the cost of LIT then suggest you visit and use the calculator on the Glasgow Council website. It helps cut through all this scaremongering, and party propaganda.
http://tiny.cc/kwG6v
6

Vivas,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 01:10:04
I've seen firsthand how the (ahem) journos at The NorthBritishman compose their headlines. They really have to do very little, the "Create Headline" software does most of the work. The journo merely has to select from the following options.

"Hammer blow to the SNP"
"Devastating blow to the SNP"
"Massive blow to the SNP"
"Huge blow to the SNP"
"Another blow to the SNP"

It's so simple to use... that even a monkey could write a headline at Hootsman Towers. I think Edinburgh Zoo should run a headcount in the monkey enclosure, obviously one of them has escaped...
7

G.Campbell,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 01:13:57
Club Wendy Bonus Card
www.wendysextra.co.uk

NAME: a "journalist"

OCCUPATION: cutting and pasting Labour press releases

ANNUAL INCOME: loads
8

,

02/06/2008 01:18:53
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9

Fifi la Bonbon,

02/06/2008 01:25:05
Senga Jean, #1 - plainly, this story does require serious response. It is not good enough for nationalist supporters to say "no story here" when presented with evidence that there may be a flaw in a policy.

Wardog, #7 - are you suggesting that the case of Ms Ralphs has been mis-calculated, and that she wouldn't have to pay the proposed higher income tax? Or that cases like hers are so unlikely that they should be treated as insignificant? More likely are students working 20 hours a week during term time, and 40 hours a week during some of the vacation. They will need to pay the nationalist income tax, but they are presently exempt from Council Tax during the vacation.

We should send the Scottish Nationalist Party homeward to think again - at least to exempt students from the new tax they'll have to pay if this tax is introduced.
10

celtic4,

USA 02/06/2008 01:28:40
Here, if you make under a certain amount of money, and are a full time student you are not required to pay income tax.
Also, there are many grants available that do NOT have to be paid back.
And,many students have scholarships. The students there seemingly have it bad as opposed to the USA. So sorry kids. Wish it were better for you. Enough to be worried about exams, much less money.
11

Forward not Back,

02/06/2008 01:30:57
When I was a student, I was working full-time during holiday periods and part-time throughout the student year to support myself. As a student living in a house with other students, I didn't have to pay council tax. I am sure my income would have exceeded the threshold mentioned by Wardog but I am presuming that the tax is not a marginal tax (i.e. the allowance is taken into account when calculating the amount due), therefore I would have been worse off under this plan.

A local income tax set nationally is quite simply a piece of nonsense. It may be slightly fairer than council tax but that doesn't necessarily justify changing the system.
12

Forward not Back,

02/06/2008 01:31:52
In addition, the fairest tax would be a tax on land. That means that those who rent wouldn't have to pay, their landlords would, helping to reduce the buy to let bubble as well.
13

Fifi la Bonbon,

02/06/2008 01:40:26
Wardog, #15 - you have again missed the impact on full time wages during the vacation period. Income tax, including the nationalists' proposed higher income tax, is presumably supposed to be paid on earnings throughout the year. And whether students ought to work part time during the student year, many do so. You moralising about this won't change that. Is the nationalist party planning to pay higher non repayable grants to students in the foreseeable future to obviate the need to work? If so, they haven't said.

There is a flaw in the policy. This story highlights that flaw. Partisan attacks on the story and the journalist won't mitigate that flaw. It isn't even as if it is a matter of nationalist ideology.
14

Fifi la Bonbon,

02/06/2008 01:45:28
"Pathetic Journalism not even worthy of the tabloids."

- No, fair comment in the public interest showing the flaw in a flagship government policy.

Tell them to fix the flaw.
15

kirk 1,

02/06/2008 01:47:39
Listen up students you use the services you have to pay for them. Stop your moaning and join the big bad world.
16

Fifi la Bonbon,

02/06/2008 01:53:14
"Are you advocating that Ms Ralph should also be exempt from Income Tax for what she earns over her Personal Tax Allowance?"

Well a good start to fix the flaw would be to apply a much higher notional personal allowance for students from the proposed nationalist supertax. Say £20,000. That would mean that high income students paid and those on modest incomes did not.

But yes, even easier, exempt students totally from the supertax.

"Supertax" - what a swinging name! I hereby offer it free to the nation.
17

Fifi la Bonbon,

02/06/2008 01:56:26
#20 and #21 - is there a suggestion that exemption for students from Council Tax is inherently wrong in principle? Because that seems to me to be a new argument and not one I've heard from Mr Swinney.

Supertax!
18

Fifi la Bonbon,

02/06/2008 02:01:50
#27 - you seem to have given up on arguing the merits of your case and decided to attack me. That means you have no more arguments.

No I'm not a member of the Young Tories. When I was a student there were quite a few students working and studying, and drawing a salary - e.g. cops studying law.


Supertax!!!
19

Fifi la Bonbon,

02/06/2008 02:06:13
#28 - In your zeal to have a go at me personally you have forgotten that this is about a replacement for Council Tax. Students are presently exempt from Council Tax. The proposed nationalist supertax would make poor students who have to work hard pay a tax they don't presently pay.


It's a Supertax!
20

kirk 1,

02/06/2008 02:19:28
Wow!! just done the glesgae cooncil calculator.
Bring it on, i'm saving buckets o cash.
Heh heh, students paying and helping me save.
And you no what? young people don't vote so it aint gonna hurt the SNP.
21

Matt there,

somewhere 02/06/2008 02:29:22
So, Alistair (no one's) Darling is the villain of the piece? Oh! But he's Labour, isn't he?
22

Conan the Librarian™,

02/06/2008 02:34:41
8
Vivas
"Wendy delivers massive blow to SNP"

Well, she's got the mouth for it, but it may take some time...
23

Jimmy the Pie,

02/06/2008 02:54:21
Bad enough running this drivel in the Sunday Hootsmoan and lifting 2 other stories from the Times.

No wonder the Hootsmoan is about to be flogged to the Sunday Post.

Oh and Red Wendy, any chance of a sight of those e-mails???????
24

Julian.,

edinburgh 02/06/2008 03:47:47
Can anyone please tell me how a tax set at a uniform rate nationally can be called a local income tax?

And under this bizzare tax system, how are the people of Edinburgh supposed to vote if they want their local council to spend more or cutback on local services?
25

,

02/06/2008 05:40:00
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26

Mark Renton,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 05:44:00
The poorest will never be the hardest working, and the hardest working will never be the poorest. This entire story is a lie.
27

Hamish Simpson,

Niddrie 02/06/2008 05:52:03

Another piece of SNP genius! Further evidence that any polition with talent or a brain goes to Westminster leaving the public sector sector jokers in Edinburgh!
28

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 02/06/2008 06:30:54
The SNP will not recover from this shambles. Just wait until those who are not currently liable for Council Tax payment find out that they will be paying LIT.
29

subrosa,

02/06/2008 06:32:20
Every student is already paying council tax if they live in rented accommodation. With LIT this will no longer be the case. It will be up to the students to ensure landlords reduce rents accordingly. Mind you, by the 'facts' in this article they will all be too busy working and studying. Aye right.
30

Portessie,

Delta 02/06/2008 07:00:02
What a glorious opportunity for graduates to come to the front.A special levy ( as a percentage of their income ) on all those who have obtained a degree would soon provide a fund that would eventually provide free university education for all.The sole purpose of a degree is to earn more money, so why not make graduates
show their gratitude.
31

terry osser,

morden 02/06/2008 07:00:54
students do not pay council tax
32

Richardinho,

02/06/2008 07:01:47
Something very odd about these calculations. A student would have to be working just about every free hour of their time in order to qualify for LIT.
But then that would beg the question; where would they be finding time for studying?
I would seriously wonder why anyone would be in that situation in the first place?
I would suggest they would be better taking a year out and saving up some more money, or else accept a lower standard of living anyway.

This all smells of something utterly contrived by the Scotsman rather than any serious journalism.
33

Forward not Back,

02/06/2008 07:04:57
#34 - as opposed to now, where another income tax becomes yet another disincentive to work for the "incapacitated" and therefore they let someone pick up the tab.

The LVT as proposed by the Greens has flaws but at least it is targeting the spread of taxation a little more fairly. There are enough taxes on the other factors of production.

Of course, it would be better for starters if final salary pension schemes were abolished in local government but no government of whatever hue seems to fancy challenging UNISON on that front.
34

john z,

edinburgh 02/06/2008 07:18:05
That's it, The Scotsman has finally become a Scottish socialist equivalent of Pravda, for red wendy. Bendy Wendy screeches, and the Scotman duly publishes.

This story is just nonsense from start to finish, and devoid of factual material. I'm sure the students of Scotland are wise enough to see this article for what it is, a pro-unionist piece of utter p@sh.
35

SassyC,

02/06/2008 07:21:09
*Please enter your comment*
36

,

02/06/2008 07:21:09
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37

SassyC,

02/06/2008 07:21:11
*Please enter your comment*
38

Richardinho,

02/06/2008 07:26:09
'LIT is a nonsense anyway: we should NOT be taxed for getting out of bed and actually (mind now, a dirty word is coming) WORKING.'

So where do you think people get the money to pay their council tax at the moment? in the main, not from the value of their houses, I'd suggest.
39

SassyC,

02/06/2008 07:26:38
This isn't the only change the SNP are making to student finances. Before a Student would have his/her eligibility for a loan determined by the natural Parents finances. Now step-parents wages are to be taken into account also.
40

Concerned local,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 07:29:50
Students earning full time wages during holidays can apply for tax emption if it appears likely that their annual earnings will not exceed the tax allowance.

And the corollary of this is that the pensioner with an annual income at or near the tax band but living in their own home will probably pay less.

With any new system of tax there will be winners and losers - I will probably be a loser as I live alone and benefit from the 25% deduction - what is important to ask is 'is the new tax fairer and more progressive than the tax it replaces?'. LIT is better than CT on these grounds, for example, because a flat in multiple occupation with several people working full time and earning currently is rated the same for tax as a pensioner living on a pension in a similar home. Manifestly, the pensioner cannot be consuming local services to the same degree as several people living together, and yet they are required to pay the same.

If some people are brought into tax because of a change in rules, then surely the fair question is 'do these people benefit from the services the tax is funding?' If so, surely it is fair that they make some contribution towards that. Or are we now a nation of special pleaders, who expect others to carry an unfair share of the burden?
41

Richardinho,

02/06/2008 07:38:14
#59 No need to rephrase it-it's a very simple question: where do you think people get the money to pay their council tax at the moment?
42

BIG EYE,

Paisley 02/06/2008 07:44:07
With LIT you pay if you are earning money above the threshold, that is everyone.

This contrasts with the grossly unfair council tax where only sum have to pay irrespective of their ability to do so.

As previous posters have already made clear students are already well ahead of where they were when Labour was in power and the SNP is trying to set a fair model for local government. Students having brains will have worked this out despite the best efforts of our Unionist media!
43

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 02/06/2008 07:54:00
Some very sensational rubbish here. Ms Ralph is going to be £29 per year worse off, or 57 pence per week. What about the winners.

What about the pressure from millions of pensioners struggling to pay their Council Tax?

Last week it looked as though Alistair Darling was more concerned about a few rich bankers than he was about many struggling poor people. This week they seem to have realised that wont wash and now we have all those crocodile tears for students. When are the Ms Ralph's of this world going to realise they are being used as pawns in a cynical game?
44

,

02/06/2008 08:19:53
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45

,

02/06/2008 08:22:07
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46

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 08:27:36
The SNP have not done their homework?

History is repeating itself, and it is a reminder of the thousands of students who were not exempt from paying
the Tory Community Charge!
47

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 02/06/2008 08:35:54
This is really, really desperate stuff from the Scotsman. How odd that the example chosen is an English student in Scotland, the ONLY sort of student in a Scottish university who has to pay tuition fees. And even this worst-case scenario the Scotsman's managed to dredge up would be worse off by a few pennies a week, if that. (Remember, this policy is still at an early planning stage, and will never apply to Ms Ralphs anyway.) And even then, the loss would be massively countered by the saving of the graduate endowment fee, leaving even our worst-case scenario much better off overall.

A complete non-story.
48

livilion,

livingston 02/06/2008 08:36:06
Let's get some perspective here folks. As a student back in the early 80's I recieved a student grant and housing benefit. I had no student debt to worry about at all.

Maggie Thatcher cancelled grants for repeat years and took away students' rights to housing benefit. My year was the first to lose HB, but at the height of the Miners' Strike Maggie's attempt to take away Student Grants and replace them with loans was defeated.
The lady was apparently for turning when her Home Counties back benck MPs were flooded with letters from parents threatening to vote Labour if her proposal went ahead.

It took old public schoolboy Honest Tony's New Labour party to remove the policy of education based on the ability to learn rather than the ability to pay.

The first thing to their credit that the administration of St Donald Dewar and his new Scottish Parliament on the Mound did was to abolish student loans in Scotland but he unfortunately stopped short of getting rid of the graduate tax aswell.

What the SNP is proposing is almost going back to the position under Thatcher.

I want the position on further education rolled back to the position this country employed pre-Thatcher.

IE if you have the ability to learn I believe there should be no hinderances placed in your way, the costs are more than made up for in increased yeilds from direct and indirect taxes and from boosts to industry and the arts from a fully educated population.

How dumb does Labour and their mouthpiece think we are out here to still be swallowing this rubbish?

btw Poor grammar and spelling are no indication of intelligence. We are mostly smart enough to know who has our best interests at heart and as far as I can make it out it's not the Scotsman or the sick joke that was once known as the 'Peoples Party'.
49

Iain's,

Barcelona 02/06/2008 08:37:37
Have I lost the plot here?

In my ignorance, and after a course on the economics of taxation at uni, I thought that local income tax was a tax on income.
Surely with an income tax, if you have no income, you are not taxed.

Could someone please tell me what the facts are so I can find out who is lying.
Perhaps the Scotsman can help by publishing the facts. (p.s. I cannot buy it here in Barcelona).

50

thinking,

Scotland 02/06/2008 08:40:38
Poll tax - all to pay - all, or part of poll tax exempted depending on income - great uproar from some
LIT - all earners to pay on earnings over basic allowance - no other exemptions - great uproar from some
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
51

Tynietiger,

02/06/2008 08:41:41
Yes the amount paid in LIT by average student is Zilch. For the small minority those who are working long hours the bulk of their tax (after personal allowances) goes to the UK Treasury but I don't recall outrage and protests from NUS Student Leaders / Scotsman front page stories when Gordon Brown proposed to increase the minimum tax band from 105 to 20%. Double standards or what?
52

livilion,

livingston 02/06/2008 08:42:34
66 Rulesbutnotrulers
>>This contrasts with income tax and rates which the rich find is easy to avoid, and which is very bureaucratic and consumes about a tenth of its gross in collection costs.<<

The current tax regime costs ~50% of it's gross in collection costs.
53

Publius,

London 02/06/2008 08:53:38
LIT is a mess. I doubt if it will happen.

One interesting thought. No fees for students won't survive long after independence. Scottish Universities will be overrun with English students after free degree courses. The Scottish Government will have to reimpose fees to keep the English at bay.
54

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 02/06/2008 08:55:11
Well what do you know, another SNP policy initiative that doesn't add up! We should not be surprised by this fact and realise that outside the promise of an independent "land of milk and honey" the SNP do struggle to balance their much lauded promises to the Scottish people. If LIT is going to work then it has to apply to the whole of the UK in an integrated revised tax regime and only the LibDems have worked that one out.
55

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 09:03:30
So the students who work full time during their holidays would have a pay LIT because during that period they will earn fulltime pay. Well Hello, isnt that what the bulk of ordinary Scots on the minimum wages brought about by a supposed Labour government in London. The same government of the rich who have just doubled that tax level to 20p in the pound. Welcome to the real world of an underpaid and overtaxed Scottish People who are living on a pittance, not for 16 weeks of a year but, for their working lives.

Lets hope the majority of these young folk grow up to remember how tough that is. Then they may do something to help the less well off and we may live in a better, fairer society for all of the Scottish People.

Dont forget that in that future there wont be a hootsman, or a london sucking our hard earned money up like a giant vacuum.

It is surely time for Scotland and its People to grasp a better future for the generations to come.

The quicker this rightwing rag and voice of London is gone, the better.
56

Gunn,

02/06/2008 09:09:51
#17 So, are you suggesting that the SNP can be forgiven their subsequent errors/unfair/unjust legislation just because Labour got it wrong before them? Or, are you content to support whatever the SNP does, however bad, just because it's the SNP? It would seem you are.
57

The Tin Man,

02/06/2008 09:09:52
Why don't we exempt retired people from CT and pass the deficit onto everyone else, now?
58

Alan B,

02/06/2008 09:15:25
a few pts

1)if students get caught by LIT under this proposal then it is becuase brown has not raised the tax threshold as part of his stealth taxation policies. (no new income tax just more taxes on income).
2)with the snp policy to remove tution fees at what level of income will a student actually be worse off. it does seem students will be far better of under the snp.
3)as income tax is 20% (plus NI at what about 10%), students hit by income tax are hurt considerably more by westminster than any snp policy.
4)why did the media not compare this to the effects of browns removal of the 10% tax band.

the fawning of the scottish media over labour despite the facts is remarkable.


59

Gunn,

02/06/2008 09:18:07
#75 You seem to forget that, if the students learning that hard lesson have to give up their studies because it's too hard for them to get by, it will be much less likely they'll ever be in a position to do anything to help people stuck in the "real world of an underpaid and overtaxed Scottish People who are living on a pittance, not for 16 weeks of a year but, for their working lives." Have it your way and the education system will simply churn out graduates and politicians with middle class roots who will only ever see things from a middle class perspective, rarely - if ever - from the eyes of the working classes at the bottom of the sh#te.

Education should be free for all, education giving equal opportunity, education that will produce thinking young people must of whom will be better equipped to help our society because they have had a higher education. But it isn't free and, in my opinion, no politician deserves my support unless they are in favour of free education and are prepared to lend their name to campaigning for it.
60

Alan B,

02/06/2008 09:18:30
#Liberal for life

That makes little sense. whether LIT is for all the countries or only for individual countries does not matter in any way. If u were to take ur logic then u would not have LIT unless the whole EU does it.

The lib dems from what i have heard support LIT for scotland anyway and not just if england does it.

The fact is LIT whether set for scotland or the whole UK could impact students in this way. There are advantages and disadvantages in any tax.
61

Gunn,

02/06/2008 09:19:40
I should add, I mean education that is not only paid for by The State but which is not taxed back again!!
62

Alan B,

02/06/2008 09:23:44
#78 The Tin Man

Would support something like that. Retired should atleast get 50% discount on CT.

Other problem with CT is it is just too high. Labour have raised it ridiculously over the last 10yrs. Well above inflation.

Goverments have to realise every £1 they take is in tax from everyone is a £1 less they have to spend on their families.

Labour have made it so much worse with the triple wammy. Vast increases in taxes (sleath taxes), big increases in council taxes. And huge deficits to be paid by tommorrows tax payer.

63

Boggle fey the Bog,

02/06/2008 09:26:54
73 Publius,London 02/06/2008 08:53:38
'Foreign Students' already pay 'tuition fees', so why should 'English Foreign Students' be treated any different?

Because after Independence, English, along with Welsh and NI citizens will be 'foreigners'.

Most likely though,is that a 'reciprocatory mechanism' will be set-up whereby the English/Lesser Britain government will 'bankroll' those students who are coming from Lesser Britain to the Kingdom of Scotland for their University Education and vice versa.
Thereby still ensuring and guaranteeing the principle of education for Scottish citizens to be 'free at the point of delivery'.

If you suggest anything else, you are just 'waffling'.

Please don't go down the road of 'EU rules etc;', as applying them to an 'Independent Scotland' is purely hypothetical, as an Independent Scotland may not wish to be part of the EU, but may prefer an 'alignment of Northern States' such as Norway, The Faroes, Iceland, Greenland and the ROI, such an alignment, especially with Norway, Greenland and the Faroes would strengthen the Northern European States standing Internationally and make them an economic force to be respected.
As most of the Fishing, Oil and Gas in the German Ocean and Northern Atlantic and Arctic oceans would come under that sphere of influence.

BOT:
This non-story is so owld that it has got white hair on it!!, and it shows how poor the Hootsmaun is when they just 'regurgitate' 'Sundays' stories on Monday Morning, pretty poor really.
64

Chris.J,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 09:27:06
As many have already said, the student will have to be earning more than the income tax threshold before they would start paying LIT... and even then it would be just 3% of the income above that threshold. Under the SNP reforms for student finance ALL students will save massively on fees etc.. its just the richest few that will pay a few pounds back in LIT. This story is biased nonsense.

What most of the posters today are missing is that James Alexander, like many NUS presidents before him (Rami Okasha for instance), is a thoroughbred parasitic wannabee New Labour career politician. He's very much part of Wendy's spin machine and this pathetic little story just shows how the NUS in Scotland is controlled by the Labour Party.... Where were they when the SNP abolished student fees??
65

Alan B,

02/06/2008 09:28:44
The worst thing about all this is the disgusting way labour are trying to withhold the council tax rebate from scotland if scotland should use the powers devolved to the scottish parliament to persue a policy different to westminster.

It is this cancerous behaviour from labour that really does scrape the bottom of the barrel and demostrates the weaknesses of devolution.

We have the ridiculous situation of the sp being only able to action certain policies within its remit if labour agree at westminster. so much for devolved government.

All the labour party have shown with this is devolution does not work.

66

Arfur,

02/06/2008 09:36:55
I am guessing that every single one of these students live at home?? Cos if not the flat that they currently rent will have council tax included in their rent by the landlord.

As for the artical - pathetic journalism as usual from the hootsman.
67

The Tin Man,

02/06/2008 09:43:09
#88 Arfur

Don't students get full CT benefit?

68

The Tin Man,

02/06/2008 09:45:45
#83 Alan B

Even millionaires living in mansions?
69

Linda,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 09:52:58
# 74

Most of the "problems" with LIT and Futures Trust as proposed by SNP stem from fact that the Scottish Parliament does not have the powers to introduce progressive policies.

The answer is Independence and with Scotland currently subsidising Alistair Darling's treasury by £6 billions this year his arguments on Politics Now yesterday were disingenuous to say the least.
70

Alan B,

02/06/2008 09:54:26
#91 The Tin Man

R u replying to the part about pensioners? i will assume u were.

My problem with CT for pensioners is the fact that it will hits hard when there is little we can do about it. We will not longer be able to affect our income.

If ur council tax is about 2,500 and u are to retire say at 60 and put aside enough until 80. then u would have to put aside £50,000 just to pay council taxation. I personally would rather pay more when i am earning and then not pay after retirement.

As for millionairs specifically. I do not think council taxation is the best way to start involving income redistribution. Every single tax does not have to do that. That should be the role of the wider taxation system.

Society can debate the merits or otherwise of a higher tax band for top rate tax etc.

Also i think inheritence tax is a better way.

My point was not on the few millionaires but on the rest of us.
71

The Tin Man,

02/06/2008 09:54:50
#93 Linda

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn
72

The Tin Man,

02/06/2008 09:58:11
#94 Alan B

I just think that it is unfair to take 20% of the population out of the local government tax-base with no regard to their wealth.
73

Miss H,

02/06/2008 09:58:47
Labour just don't get it. It's not about saying that taxation should be based on status, it should be based on income.

They - and the Tories - have a tokenistic approach. Let's exempt students and pensioners. So presumably Prince William did not have to pay council tax when he was a student in Scotland - and neither would the Queen if the unionists had their way. Meanwhile low waged families struggling to get by would continue to be shafted with ever increasing council tax levels which would be necessary to compensate for all the exemptions.

You either believe tax should be based on the ability to pay or you don't. Labour doesn't. The SNP does. The voters will take their choice.
74

Alan B,

02/06/2008 09:58:56
#73 Publius

"No fees for students won't survive long after independence. Scottish Universities will be overrun with English students after free degree courses."

It is an interesting point that. The real problem behind this the ridiculous EU policy.

There are ways round it for some things and u could taylor a system in such a way.

For instance say a medic. U could charge them the fees but then fund nhs scotland to pay it back as that person works for u. Dentistry and other nhs professions could do the same. dito teaching.

It just get more complicated. The EU rule on this really should be reformed.
75

unbiased,

Erehwon o Elddim 02/06/2008 10:00:35
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Ms Ralph returns to her parents' home in Luton and is working in Luton, she surely would not be liable to pay Scottish LIT in England, would she?
76

Alan B,

02/06/2008 10:01:20
#Miss H

U could argue that the tax system should be based on ability to pay rather than trying to make every individual tax fair.

A fair taxation system could have many different taxes focussed on different area rather make a fair tax system. While making every tax seemingly fair can end up with an unfair tax system. Over burderening a single method of tax.

77

Miss H,

02/06/2008 10:05:46
100 I wouldn't argue with that. The point I am making is that people should not be exempted from taxation simply because they are a student/pensioner or whatever other category is thought popular by opposition groups.

So while it is the case that the huge majority of pensioners will pay less local taxation under the SNP's proposals that is because they have lower than average incomes, not because they are pensioners.
78

Alan B,

02/06/2008 10:07:54
#96 The Tin Man

I understand where u r coming from but:

1)why not get people to pay during the there working life rather than when they retire.
2)with pensions in a mess it will be increasely hard for us to provide for ourselves in retirement. if u want an income of say 20,000 a yr from 60 -80 u would have to put away 400,000. it is scarey.

i just think we should not be hitting those (and we will all be one day) hardest when they cannot do anythign about it. Cannot get a better job or a second job etc.

3)use the wider tax system to hit the wealthiest if u want. it it the rest of us that are getting hit when we retire at the moment. inheritence tax is a good way to remove wealth.

why have free personal care for millionaires? there are other things u could means test if u look at it.





79

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

02/06/2008 10:09:06
#93 Whilst there may be legal issues with both LIT and SFT the truth is that a way could be found to circumvent these problems. For me the real issue is that both policies as they stand are ill-thought out, in fact, unworkable and have more holes than my granddad's string vests.

LIT may be superficially attractive but fails particularly on the keys issues of accountability and efficiency. There is no link between actual taxation and expenditure because local councils won't actually set the LIT rate.

Local Councils will have absolutely no incentive to cut local expenditure. It eliminates any motivation for fiscal prudence and effective local government. The critical financial relationship between electors and local government would vanish. In reality we would be burdened in perpetuity with the present high levels of local expenditure. Even if a local council managed to achieve efficiency savings there would be no mechanism of repatriating said savings to taxpayers.

Moreover, as we are seeing with the sort of case highlighted today, the actual implementation of the system may not be as trouble-free as some would have us believe.
80

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

02/06/2008 10:10:15
#103 A postscript - I thought I would add that I don't support the retention of Council tax either.

It at the very least needs reforming if not replaced.

Certainly an argument could be made to bring in more directed assistance for groups such as pensioners who have been worst affected by Council Tax. A case could also be made for more frequent, independent revaluations. It would be far better than the nonsense of basing bands on notional 1991 values.

Personally though I would rather have a complete rethink over local taxation and there are definitely more radical alternatives out there such a local sales tax or a local wealth tax.

Whatever system is put in place must, in my opinion, strengthen not lessen the accountability role of local taxation. However it is because the financial and functional relationship between central, Scottish and local government is so intertwined that accountability is a real problem.

In truth, since and before devolution, Scottish and central government has habitually managed its own expenditure by forcing local government to take on Scottish and central government responsibilities. Consequently, many Scottish Councils have had to raise Council tax year after year to cope with these increased financial pressures.

It is this deep-seated dilemma that must be dealt with if any logical system for local government finances is to be created. The functions and finances of local government must be divorced from those of the Scottish and central Governments.

One could argue that the problem is not Council Tax per se but much more fundamental and deep-rooted problems.
81

thinking,

02/06/2008 10:13:10
#86
I am not a Labourite but I can see that if Council tax is abolished then no rebate can be given as you cannot rebate what is not being paid. This has nothing to do with Labour v SNP, it would be the same with any party
To rebate LIT would require new tax laws which is a different matter altogether (presumably it would have to apply to the whole of the UK too)
82

Miss H,

02/06/2008 10:19:13
105 Sorry but that is nonsense. Council tax benefit is paid to local authorities to compensate for those people whose incomes do not pass the threshhold where they would become liable to pay local taxation.

It does not actually matter what form the tax takes. For example when the poll tax was abolished and council tax was brought in, the benefit applied to those who could not pay the poll tax continued to be applied to those who could not pay council tax. It did not matter that the form of taxation had changed. The same applies today in Northern Ireland where people pay rates not council tax. But the rebate is applied on exactly the same basis as it is applied for council tax benefit here.
83

Alan B,

02/06/2008 10:21:38
#105 thinking

The problem with that is why devolve the type of taxation for local government in the first place. If the sp decide to alter the method used they should not have fund withdrawn( and remember i do not actually support LIT only the right of the sp to impose it if it is the democratic will)

Think about it. We all pay money to the taxman. Scotland should have a share of that. However if we choose to excerise the powers of the sp to vary the taxation method we lose the money we have paid in. That is barking. We would be effectively paying for england to get rebates and subsiding them.

Quite simply the money for council tax rebate should be part of the block grant and the sp should spend the money as it sees fit.

Another problem i have with ur agrument is: What if the tories decide to bring in poll tax mark 11. Do u think labour will be happy if they were in power in the sp if they decide to maintain the council tax but the rebate autonomatically stop for scotland as we have not followed the english policy.

Remember aswell the rebate money was alway forthcoming to scotland during rates, poll tax and not council tax. Why not LIT as part of block grant. Remember labour set up devolution with the right of the sp to change this form of taxation.
84

G,

dun dy 02/06/2008 10:21:51
Look - maybe the SNP could ask the students to work out how their LIT will work. No one really understands it and since it has been set at a level that will deliberately not meet costs I can't have any confidence in the peopl who thought up....
85

Alan B,

02/06/2008 10:26:54
#108 "No one really understands it"

u may not understand it but do not speak for the rest of us. it is very very simple. u may not agree with it and i personally do not support it. but i can understand adding 3% onto income tax for salaried income.

as u do not understand it and u are on a computer i will explain. open up the calculator, multiply 0.03 by ur taxable salaried income and u have the amount u would pay.
86

FM in Dundee,

02/06/2008 10:28:34
It ill begets the Labour party to criticise the SNP on student finance when they introduced tuition fees, voted against abolishing the graduate endowmwnent and refused to rule out top up fees.

The SNP have been streets ahead in what they have done for students and they are commited to doing more. The financial constraint on students have been reduced considerably by the SNP government.

On the council tax, many in the right wing alliance of Tory and Labour seem to be forgetting that the council tax is prone to severely hammering students between courses. Several people I know were charged hundreds of pounds council tax for their rented flats over the summer whilst making the transition from undergraduate to postgraduate courses. Students living with non students were also only given a discount on the council tax rather than a full exemption. The costs to a great deal of students from council tax were much more significant than they ever will be from LIT.
87

Tellen1,

02/06/2008 10:30:25
#109

If you read the article properly you will see why the students mentioned are described as the poorest:

"Student leaders warned that the tax would hit only the poorest – those who do not get financial help from their parents and have to work through the year to cover the cost of their studies."

They have to work all those hours because they do not get financial help from their parents - they are the poorest students because they have to work to get through their course.
88

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 02/06/2008 10:34:08
Just more anti-SNP propaganda from Das Scotsmansturmer. Splashing unsubstantiated and slanted assertions and driving their readership away. Interesting to see how the wee Ukanian trolls wait for any contrived bandwagaon to come alone and jump on it. Not an ounce of honesty or honour in any of them. Labour are the party of poverty and debt - they are becoming loathed by Scots.
89

Anne, Glasgow,

02/06/2008 10:34:15
This story is a load of tosh. I have just been on the Glasgow City Council website to complete a local income tax calculation on my current earnins as a low income earner. The results show that I will be nothing. What I am earning now is what I was earning as an undergraduate. These are the comments I left on GCC website - I think the local income tax is very fair. Low income earners have nothing to fear. This is contradictory to the news story in today's (2/6/08) Scotsman. I will pass onto to bloggers on the site.
90

Anne, Glasgow,

02/06/2008 10:35:25
PS This is the GCC link to calculate local income tax if anyone is interested - http://tiny.cc/kwG6v
91

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 02/06/2008 10:39:53
105 thinking,02/06/2008 10:13:10
#86
"I am not a Labourite but I can see that if Council tax is abolished then no rebate can be given as you cannot rebate what is not being paid."

No, you are being fooled by a piece of rhetoric. Money which is part of the Scottish grant is assigned to council tax benefit. If there is no council tax the money should be reassigned WITHIN the Scottish grant. It is Scotland's money and it is being withdrawn in order to hamstring the SNP government for political reasons. Scots are being punished for not voting Labour!
92

Roy,

02/06/2008 10:45:59
Another piece of appalling, and anonymous, journalism from the so-called Scotsman. It really is time that this paper started backing Scotland instead of rubbishing it all the time. Does it ever publish a positive story about anything?
93

Sedov,

Scotland 02/06/2008 10:46:19
Oh dear, the SNP have been found wanting again - but I am not in the least surprised. Maybe John Swinney and the SNP leaders should go back to further education, try basic arithmetic for a start and maybe a bit of humanities for good measure.
94

,

02/06/2008 11:03:05
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95

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 02/06/2008 11:08:31
The proposed tax is a national scandal which will hit the very people Salmond said it would help. He should be considering his position, just like John Swinney.
96

Tellen1,

02/06/2008 11:10:59
#121

"Another piece of appalling, and anonymous, journalism from the so-called Scotsman."

Its not an anonymous article - if you look at the paper copy of the Scotsman you will see it was written by Hamish Macdonnell.
97

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

02/06/2008 11:15:38
#123 The Scottish Income Tax (because that is what it really is) is unreasonable because it removes the direct link between council income and council expenditure. Assuming anomalies such as today's could be sorted out I could probably cope with a real Local Income Tax if it were set locally.

It seems crazy for me that a supposedly decentralising party wants to centralise local government taxation and expenditure.
98

NorT,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 11:17:12
Why shouldn't students, or anybody else, if they are earning enough, not pat their fair share for the services they use. They have had it too easy for too long and think the country deversves to pay for them rather than the other way about.
99

Sedov,

Scotland 02/06/2008 11:31:02
#123 and #125. There is no doubt that the council tax needs radical change, but the fact is that despite some good points in LIT, poorer students from working class backgrounds who now make up a greater percentage of students than before are going to be hard hit because of the ill thought out parts of the LIT dealing with students etc - and more importantly, the SNP have again renaged on election manifesto promises to help and encourage working class students to cope with their studies free from the burden of debt. Whatever people think of students, the facts speak for themselves and I would suggest that, not for the first time, the Salmond worshippers are in denial. Wake up!
100

Alan B,

02/06/2008 11:39:07
#Sedov

Do not really understand u as

1) they are abolishing tution fees so students are going to be better of.
2)If u are going to attack LIT for hitting students earning over the taxable threshold surely u have to attack the much bigger tax hit these students would face by being taxed by income tax proper. It is labour not lifting the tax threshold that is far worse.
3)u have to recognise that labour abolishing the 10p tax rate will hit students harder.

All in all labour as usual are appalling hypocrits.
101

The Sprucer,

02/06/2008 11:44:07
Poorest and Hardest Working? EH? I'm sitting here in Glasgow Uni Library and most of the students are wearing designer labels while chatting and texting their pals when they've still got exams coming up. Where's the poverty and hard work in that?
102

Sedov,

Scotland 02/06/2008 11:57:03
#131 and - the point is that the SNP have again broken their promises so that makes them at least as bad a New Labour - OK? # 132 Yes I got a designer shirt in the charity shop the other day - sounds as if you are another student basher with a chip on your shoulder.
103

Alan B,

02/06/2008 12:06:05
#Sedov

Under the snp, students will no longer have to pay tution fees (rightly or wrongly) that will make them significantly better off. Under the snp, they will try to introduce LIT (their manefesto commitment), a few students may be hit if they earner enough.

How much would they have to earn to be worse of than before including the abolishment of tution fees?

I do not support LIT for a variety of reasons, but the fact is students earning this amount are hit far harder by the labour treasury than this proposal becuase of labours 10p tax removal and being hit by income tax proper.

Overall students will be better off that under labour.

As for ur comment that the snp are as bad as labour. You have to be joking. That party is corrupt to its core.

104

Alan B,

02/06/2008 12:09:10
#The Sprucer

The point regarding students would be twofold.

1)tax them in a couple of yrs when they are earning decent money rather than when they are scrapping through.
2)how many of the students are u talking about are being taken care of by their parents rather than one of those that is working parttime to improve themselves and their career opportunities.

The whole thing with students is we need for the economy well trained and well educated people. they in turn will earn good money and pay back into the tax system. It is called not being short sighted.
105

Alan B,

02/06/2008 12:10:48
sorry pt 2 should have said "rather than those from poor backgrounds etc ...""
106

Alan B,

02/06/2008 12:12:59
#danielrober

The problem with loans is that many potential students could be put off from studying and going to uni. When u leave school at 16/17 to start a degree u are still so young and the debts can seem overwhelming.

107

Alan B,

02/06/2008 12:16:26
#danielrober

"If this had of been in place when i was at University it would have been better for me to stop work"

while i understand where u are coming from. put this in perspective. the 22% or more income tax u would have been paying then (more if it was a while ago - 27% in the 80s) plus NI and u got by but raise it by 3% from the current level of 20% and it is not.

The 10p abolishment would hit hard.
108

Arfur,

02/06/2008 12:21:13
the worst thing about this rag is that it generalises everything.

"it emerged it would bring tens of thousands of the poorest students in Scotland into the local tax net for the first time" - so because when I was at uni and work 35 - 40 hours I was one of the poorest students in Scotland? News to me, I thought I worked that much to pay for the copious amounts of larger I had to pay for.
109

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 02/06/2008 12:41:04
Many, many comments - some informed and informative, others utter rubbish.

The problem is SO complex that I wonder if anybody inside or outside the govenment REALLY understands the implications of th LIT?

It would take a PHD in Economic Theory to understand all the nuances of this proposed legislation.

Any takers.
110

kirk 1,

02/06/2008 12:47:27
#115 "If you read the article properly you will see why the students mentioned are described as the poorest:

"Student leaders warned that the tax would hit only the poorest – those who do not get financial help from their parents and have to work through the year to cover the cost of their studies."

They have to work all those hours because they do not get financial help from their parents - they are the poorest students because they have to work to get through their course."

Then surely those poor parents will be just the kind to benefit from LIT.
So at worst the savings made by those parents would be offset the the LIT to the student.
111

Miss H,

02/06/2008 13:07:46
146 In addition I would argue that the hardest working students are probably part time students who combine work with study. 388,000 of them to be precise. And they pay council tax - no exemption for p/t students.

So the SNP are the baddies because a small number out of 55,00 full time students would be liable to pay LIT if their income passed the threshhold where they become liable - which is most unlikely in most cases.

But the NUS says nothing about the almost 400,000 part time students who currently have to pay council tax?

Hmm. Something not quite right there. What is their agenda?

That's not even mentioning the abolition of the graduate endowment. A student would have to earn £100,000 during their degree to pay more in LIT than they will save by the abolition of the graduate endowment. How many students earn that? Any guesses?
112

,

02/06/2008 13:21:02
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113

brownlie,

02/06/2008 13:21:53
143 The Spook

Greetings, spook, and thank you for showing us unionists up for the self-centred, self-seeking, conniving and cunning shower that we really are!!!
114

Grahamski,

Falkirk 02/06/2008 13:28:12
143
Greetings Brownlie, and thank you for demonstrating once again how nauseating a nationalist can be when they try to be clever.
Still, I sympathise with you, it's tough being a nat these days. Better just deny your politics. Was that a cock crowing three times or a haggis?
115

,

02/06/2008 13:31:15
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116

,

02/06/2008 13:33:52
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117

brownlie,

02/06/2008 13:36:00
150 Grahamski

I do not have to try to be clever but sometimes have to come down to your level.

As for nauseating you do not have to travel far to find that.

As far as your last sentence is concerned we have no interests in your personal habits.

Far from being a nat I am one of those unionists that see unionism as being all-singing, all dancing with lots of good-will towards men - even the ones with blinkers on.
118

Grahamski,

Falkirk 02/06/2008 13:40:53
153
Course you are a unionist..everybody can see that - still your mates at the Inverstoorie Free Alba Society must be sniggering into their shandies
119

brownlie,

02/06/2008 13:44:12
154 Grahamski

At least we can tell the difference between a cock and a haggis. Get a friend, if you've got one, to explain it to you.

Got to fly, will be back to help you propogate our glorious unionist cause very soon.
120

Grahamski,

Falkirk 02/06/2008 13:47:36
155
When you do try not to fib, there's a good wee patriot....
121

brownlie,

02/06/2008 13:48:15
154 Grahamski

PS to 155

I'll bet you had a hilarious honey-moon with plenty of trips to the buther's shop!!
122

Walter Ego,

Durness 02/06/2008 13:49:10
It is interesting to note that The National Pensioners' Forum has now come out against the proposed new tax. They know that many pensioners who pay no Council Tax just now will be liable for the new tax. This is a national disgrace which Swinney and Salmond must rectify immediately.
123

,

02/06/2008 14:08:48
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124

Auckland Arab2,

02/06/2008 14:17:11
The issue here is not whether Students (or Pensioners) pay or don't pay LIT because that is not an issue of fairness in taxation. The ability to pay should be the only criteria applied here and if students (or pensioners) earn sufficient income then they should pay the tax the same as everyone else. Period. There are clearly many anomalies in the current tax system - LIT will not address them all but it will address the iniquitous Council Tax, which takes no account of ability to pay, but works on the old Socialist assumption that if you live in a big house you must have money. If it is such a fair system, why is the property valuation based on property prices on 1 April 1991 ?!? Utter nonsense.

Perhaps the same people complaining here should be campaigning for students to be exempt from all taxes, as that would save them far more money than LIT will cost them.

Taxation should have some basis on ability to pay. Too many users of council services do not currently contribute towards them as well and that is wrong.
125

Grahamski,

Falkirk 02/06/2008 14:20:49
You really have to feel sorry for Mr Swinney. He seems a decent enough man but he's been left to try and put into practice a raft of policies which were never meant to be anything other than a way of winning votes.

Now that they are in power the nats face the full glare of proper scrutiny and their policies are shown to be at best ill-conceived and at worst illegal, cynical and certainly not in the people's best interests.

And poor Mr Swinney has been given the responsibility of trying to convince us that they are reasonable and workable. Unfortunately he fails on both counts with this ludicrous national tax. The SNP seem to be in complete denial here, this is not a local tax, it is to be set by the Scottish Executive in Edinburgh and collected by HMRC controlled from London.

There is no local element to this tax other than the nats using the word 'local' in the name. Absolutely gobsmacking piece of opportunism from Mr Salmond et al, something which is becoming more and more typical unfortunately.
126

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 02/06/2008 14:24:55
165

Grahamski, feel sorry for Mr Swinney? You must be joking. If the SNP didn't feel sorry when they ditched him as leader (remember their unbridled glee?), why should we feel sorry for him now?
127

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 02/06/2008 14:28:17
166

Peter, you have missed the point made by Mr Ego. The fact that a person does not have to pay Council Tax at present does not absolve him/her from paying LIT in the future. People will (rightly) be furious when they discover that they have been duped.
128

Walter Ego,

Durness 02/06/2008 14:35:54
168

WUM, thank you for clarifying my point. Even some nationalists don't know that they are going to be hit hard by the local income tax. It will end up as another poll tax fiasco.
129

Grahamski,

Falkirk 02/06/2008 14:36:27
170
Yikes,
The nats have gone completely loopy...how many Westminster seats do you think you'll have after the next election?
130

Grahamski,

Falkirk 02/06/2008 14:42:13
173
You are welcome...33 seats, eh?
You don't think the SNP might be falling into the trap of over-confidence do you?
They have previous for this kind of behaviour...remember free by ........when was it again?
131

Walter Ego,

Durness 02/06/2008 14:49:37
Even the bold Mr Salmond (who, after all, knows all about sums) does not envisage 33 seats. Is he wrong again?

Grahamski, keep up the good work. Spook is spooked.
132

Walter Ego,

Durness 02/06/2008 14:51:12
177

Peter, many pensioners will be paying more LIT than Council Tax.
133

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

02/06/2008 14:52:45
Can anyone explain why the tax is being set centrally instead of letting coucnils set their own rate?
134

Walter Ego,

Durness 02/06/2008 14:54:14
180

The Federalist, purely for control purposes.
135

Walter Ego,

Durness 02/06/2008 14:55:58
181

Calm Spook, calm. You have even lost control of your grammar/spelling. Or are you saying you never had control?
136

Grahamski,

Falkirk 02/06/2008 14:57:02
176
Here's what I'm pointing out:
The promises made by the SNP during the election campaign were never going to be delivered, they knew this but peddled their lies anyway. It was a breathtaking piece of political opportunism and will cost the nats dear as the people of Scotland begin to realise that they've been had.
The SNP do not represent the mainstream of Scottish political aspirations, they tapped into a general antipathy towards the Scottish executive and UK Labour government.
They claimed that they would govern in Scotland's best interests they quite clearly have abondoned that promise. Their whole programme is designed to bring Scotland into conflict witht the rest of the UK. It is becoming more and more obvious that this is their sole aim.
The SNP will pay dearly for this deceit
137

Walter Ego,

Durness 02/06/2008 14:57:53
183

Peter, everyone knows that Labour are (rightly) done for but why should that stop legitimate criticism of the SNP?
138

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 02/06/2008 15:01:04
188

A good point Walter. The "SNP right or wrong" attitude is worrying. It reminds me of the American neocons. Of course, their politics are a bit similar.
139

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 02/06/2008 15:02:10
189

Peter, why should we accept your example?
140

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

02/06/2008 15:02:30
#184 So even you don't know spook. Perhaps Miss H can enlighten me?
141

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 02/06/2008 15:03:53
191

Mr Spook, you should check your spelling and grammar otherwise standards will slip even further.
142

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 02/06/2008 15:05:15
193

Good suggestion The Federalist. As a paid servant of the SNP, Miss H (really Mr H) should be able to advise us.
143

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

02/06/2008 15:10:31
#197 Tried the website and for the life of me cannot find any explanation why.
144

Alan B,

02/06/2008 15:15:08
#The Federalist

Is it not for simplicity, with a view to possibly making it locally set at a later date after it has bedded in if successful.

For instance having a 3% national set rate makes it relatively easy for the inland revenue to collect and calculate.

They will probably make a play for scotland to collect income tax at a later date. When u control the collection of taxes it will be easier to be more flexible in how u implement it.

There are also political advantages. This way people can easily see what they will pay. This way they can force through there tax cut.

Also it removes the arbitory nature of the huge rises we have seen from councils in the last 10yrs, which are way above inflation.
145

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 02/06/2008 15:16:20
202

I agree with you Alan. It is for control purposes.
146

kirk 1,

02/06/2008 15:16:24
#178 "Even the bold Mr Salmond (who, after all, knows all about sums) does not envisage 33 seats. Is he wrong again?"

I'm sure even Mr Salmond even in his wildest dreams, could not have envisaged the total meltdown that we have seen from the labour party.
147

Sunrise,

Fife 02/06/2008 15:27:53
Whats all the fuss about!

Do 25% of sutents realy work more that 21 hours a week?
Do they do this every week?
Do some of them earn more than the £5,435 per year?
Do all students use Local serices?
Do they now "NOT" have to pay the the graduate endowment?
Should they pay like everybody else if they earn enough?

It seems plain to me we all pay according to our ability to pay. That goes for Students like everyone else.

148

Grahamski,

Falkirk 02/06/2008 15:28:36
206
I made no reference to your lack of grammar and almost heroic spelling mistakes.
149

thinking,

Scotland 02/06/2008 15:32:44
#107
The point I am making is that income tax and council tax are two different things with different legislation governing them, therefore it would take legislation to change the situation. I didn't say it couldn't be done but with income tax surely it would be UK wide?
150

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 02/06/2008 15:33:00
207

Sunrise, well put. When did you last vote Tory?
151

,

02/06/2008 15:46:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
152

,

02/06/2008 15:51:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
153

Iain's,

02/06/2008 16:05:17
I think that it is time to remind Liberals and Lib dems that local income tax is their party's policy.
154

Iain's,

02/06/2008 16:06:18
I think that it is time to remind Liberals and Lib dems, again, that local income tax is their party's policy.
155

Sunrise,

Fife 02/06/2008 16:11:54
#210

Never Voted Tory and never will.

I always thought each contributing according to the ability to pay was a good "Real" Labour policy. A bit like education free to all, based on ability to learn. Or Care free at the piont of delivery. Tried getting an NHS dentist lately?

Tony and the gang made it hard for our kids to go to Uni by bringing in a "Student tax". This Tax is now gone and you want to moan about some students paying not very much for the local servises that we all benifit from.

But of course, not that long ago, before Tony, we had real Labour.

Robert, having read some of your inputs I doubt you realy do care about real people. A bit like some of the placemen Brown has at both Wesminster and Holyrood. If it does not meet your dogma? Easy, then accuse them of being a Tory or a Nat. Tony has tought you all so well.

Sad, oh so sad.
156

,

02/06/2008 16:17:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
157

Tellen1,

02/06/2008 16:54:58
#170 The Spook in Leith:

"According to Electoral Calculus' analysis twenty-three Labour MPs face losing their seats to the SNP."

Hmmm...you are either confused or lying. I just looked at the Electoral Calculus website and it does not say anywhere near 23 Labour MPs will lose their seats to the SNP.

It predicts the SNP will gain 4 seats from Labour, taking their total to 10, nowhere near the 33 seats you ridiculously claim.

158

cataibh,

Bo'ness 02/06/2008 17:03:55
My advice to students to save £300.00 per year, don't buy the Scotsman.
159

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

02/06/2008 17:05:21
"#215 Iain's,02/06/2008 16:05:17
I think that it is time to remind Liberals and Lib dems that local income tax is their party's policy."

That would be fine if it were a local income tax on offer - as it stands just now it is a Scottish Income Tax distributed to local authorities. If the SNP allowed Local Authorities to change the rate of taxation (down as well as up) then I believe that the Lib Dems would have no alternative to support the proposals.

#202 I undersatnd that argument Alan but to be honest don't see the point of it - not unless it is a case of teh scottish government not trusting local councils. If LIT were to be implemented I'd prefer it to be done in one step instead of this one step now and maybe one step later. My gut feeling is if we go the one step now we won't have the one step later - no matter who is in government.
160

brownlie,

02/06/2008 17:06:25
218 Tim

Leave the Spook alone! He is one of the most erudite and entertaining posters on here.
161

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 02/06/2008 17:06:42
Tellen1 (Labour troll number 8) is deliberately misleading. the 10MPs figure is based on an average opinion poll ratings in April. Here is the direct quote from the website: "AVERAGE 24 Apr 08 - 29 Apr 08" "Predicted Election Result
On this data the number of seats won would be CON 2 (+1), LAB 40 (-1), LIB 7 (-4), NAT 10 (+4)."

Spook in Leith was talking about the opinion poll averages for May "new opinion poll analysis for all UK polls in May with a Scottish sample shows that the SNP has built up a 9 point lead over Labour":
SNP: 35% (+17%)
Lab: 26% (-14%)
Tory: 20% (+4%)
LibDem: 14% (-9%)
Other: 5% (1%)

So, again the web trolls are found out to be telling little unionist porkies.




eat - Sitting MP

Dunbartonshire West - John McFall
Glenrothes - John MacDougall
Cumbernauld, Kilsyth & Kirkintilloch East - Rosemary McKenna
Livingston - Jim Devine
Falkirk - Eric Joyce
Inverclyde - David Cairns
East Kilbride, Strathaven & Lesmahagow - Adam Ingram
Dundee West - Jim McGovern
Kilmarnock & Loudoun - Des Browne
Linlithgow & East Falkirk - Michael Connarty
Midlothian - David Hamilton
Lanark & Hamilton East - Jimmy Hood
Aberdeen North - Frank Doran
Paisley & Renfrewshire North - Jim Sheridan
Glasgow North - Ann McKechin
Edinburgh East - Gavin Strang
Ayrshire North & Arran - Katy Clark
East Lothian - Anne Moffat
Aberdeen South - Anne Begg
Edinburgh South West - ALISTER DARLING HA HA HA
Edinburgh North & Leith - Mark Lazarowicz
Stirling - Anne McGuire
Ochil & South Perthshire - Gordon Banks
162

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 02/06/2008 17:09:26
Shame that some of the more odious Labour MPs like the Alexander sublings aren't on the list to lose their seats but Darling will do for a start and the there's Eric Joyce - that's a delicious prospect indeed!

I smell a civil war in the Labour Party coming on. I love the smell of napham in the morning.
163

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 02/06/2008 17:13:14
Perhaps some of the nationalist posters would like to pick a personal favourite to lose his/her job?

I think Des Browne could do with writing his auto-biography.
164

Miss H,

02/06/2008 17:14:14
221 The Scottish Government could not implement a variable local income tax. The UK Government is humming and hawing about 'allowing' them even to implement a national 3p rate. There is no way they would agree to supporting 32 different rates all to be collected by the inland revenue.

If you want Scotland to have a variable local income tax then we need the fiscal powers to do that which at present we do not have. The choice now is reform council tax or adopt the 3p rate. Others may chip in and say we could have a land value tax but I don't think that is a realistic option.
165

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

02/06/2008 17:22:37
#226 My priority would be to get a broad-based cross-party support for fiscal autonomy - then the issue would be irrelevent.
166

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

02/06/2008 17:30:58
#223 One can read too much in to polls. As we saw at the last Scottish election seats that one would expect to switch did not whilst others switched that were not as expected. For example, the SNP did not gain any of their top three targets - Galloway & Upper Nithsdale (Conservative), Tweeddale, Ettrick & Lauderdale (Liberal Democrats) and Cumbernauld & Kilsyth (Labour). Yet they gained seats such as(Stirling, Edinburgh East & Musselburgh, Livingston and Argyll & Bute that were outwith their top 11 targets.

What is interesting is that of the top 11 targets - seats where only a 5% swing was required to win the seat - the SNP only gained 4 of those seats. One of these - Dundee West - was an absolute certainty given that Labour's incumbent candidate was replaced at the last minute by the unpopular leader of Dundee City Council - talk about electoral suicide.

One thing that seems to have happened is that Labour have piled resources into marginal seats and lost seats where they did not campaign so actively in like Stirling.
167

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 02/06/2008 17:40:57
226, 229,
There's easy ways around this. You give them the powers but then get them to agree that they will never use them. That way if a council wants to charge its constituents less they can issue rebates.

This is a local tax despite what the imbecile propagandists on here tell ya. It will be collected to pay for local services and is given to councils to spend on local services. Each council can issue rebates. Most of the council's money comes from a direct grant from central government and yet no-one is bleating about that...?

What we have here is London trying to put the kibosh on the Scottish Government. There are no legal problems with the proposal, there are no administrative problems with it - the only problem there is is obstructiveness from London - vindictive Labour politicians who like punishing Scots for not doing what they were told at the last Holyrood election.

That's it in a nut-shell for ya.
168

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 02/06/2008 17:56:15
#223,
I think you're wrong. There was a very strong propaganda campaign which brought hitherto Labour switchers back into the fold in certain types of constituencies.

The reason why the SNP won in unexpected constituencies is because the hoodoo of splitting the anti-Tory vote died. Places like Stirling were always strong nationalist areas but that was masqued by the desire to keep the tories out. You'll find that it was the same in other places where tactical voting kept the SNP vote suppressed for a generation.

Since the last election certain changes have taken place in relation to Labour's ability to bring "its vote home". Now, there can be no argument about the SNP not being competent or that they don't know how to govern because they are permanently in opposition. The vote Labour clawed back just before polling day in 2007 has now migrated and because of the SNP's success in government and Labour's failure in opposition, we are seeing a migration of Labour's vote on massive scale and that is reflected in these latest polls. Only a small amount of these will be scared back by talk of armageddon under an SNP government - not now they've seen one.

The only chance Labour have of saving most of their seats is by arguing that an SNP vote could get the Tories into power. That argument doesn't cut it the way it used to and hey, it's becoming obvious that Labour are going to get slaughtered in England anyway. So, in that context the question people will be asking is 'who will protect us from an English Tory government? The SNP or Labour?' - I can tell you that there can be only one answer to that question and it ain't going to be Labour.

No, opinion polls seldon get it that wrong.
169

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 02/06/2008 18:12:25
Why is it that when we publish the list of Labour MPs on death row that the cyber-trolls suddenly are nowhere to be found? Is this too painful for them to see?
170

lilywhite,

borders 02/06/2008 18:13:31
#230 One thing that seems to have happened is that Labour have piled resources into marginal seats and lost seats where they did not campaign so actively in like Stirling.

Problem for Labour next time round is that they have so many seats they need to pile resources into and very little resources to do it with.Even if some billionaire financed them, do they have the people on the ground to get out and knock on doors.Of course they can rely on rags like the record,herald and Hootsman to spread there lies but even they may eventually see sense(well not the record obviously)
171

brettgallacher,

edinburgh 02/06/2008 18:14:48
is this the same 55 000 students who fill the pubs every day each student already costs the tax payer 25k a year so after four years the can work in tescos, pubs clubs etc, the whole point of a local income tax is ,if you earn more you pay more ,the labour gov done away with the 10p tax took 2p of the top earners meaning if you earned 12k you now pay 1400 in tax when you paid 700 before , the folk on 100,000 now save themselves 2000 a year
172

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 02/06/2008 18:19:10
I can see where the Scotsman is coming from in this.

One can presume that most of the journalists are in double income families or residences.

LVT is already here in a different form. The same house construction will vary in price depending on where you live.

LIT is fair. I would pay about £190pa more but I can afford it as I live below my means and would rather my excess tax went towards helping someone in an age bracket that I will be in someday.

Think ahead, selfish dummies.
173

Miss H,

02/06/2008 18:28:30
230 those were not the top 3 target seats
174

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 02/06/2008 18:46:46
Can't believe it. Sign in again after 20 minutes idle.

Could the Scotsman please publish how they justify their online figures to advertisers?

Scroll back, read and then get bumped off. Ridiculous.

Can we see your accounts, please?

Like I said, I know where the Scotsman is coming from but I disagree entirely.

Freedom - of information.
175

Sunrise,

02/06/2008 18:54:41
#237 Jock Tamson.

Excelent comment. Than you!

The reason the 10p tax issue went so bad for labour was not only because so may individuals were made worse off but because even those who would be better off thought it was unfair to so many less well off people.

As I said before "I thought each contributing according to the ability to pay was a good "Real" Labour policy."

Not anymore it seems from reading some of the comments here.

176

Richardinho,

02/06/2008 19:07:17
Notice that on the opinion page, the Scotsman is claiming there is growing unease about the LIT plans.
Not really-just that the Scotsman makes increasingly hysterical and badly considered attacks on it in the hope that some mud will eventually stick. Under close scrutiny this latest attacks quickly falls to pieces, as do the others. Of course by that time, this 'newspaper' and it's craven 'journalists' will have concocted some new scare story about it.
177

Richardinho,

02/06/2008 19:09:53
If a student is working enough hours to pay this tax, then they're working far too many to start with. They'd be better taking a year or two out and saving up, rather than failing because they didn't have time to study.
178

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

02/06/2008 19:57:58
#238 They were in terms of the level of swing to win them for the SNP:

* Galloway & Upper Nithsdale - 0.17% swing was required
* Tweedale, Ettrick & Lauderdale - 1.01% swing was required
* Cumbernauld & Kilsyth 1.07% - swing was required

I've tried to find the actual list of the SNP targets but can't find them. There a variety of articles about teh SNP's 20 top winnable seats at the last election but nothing explicitly stating the order.

After the 3 I listed the next 4 winnable seats all went to the SNP with the next 4 after that all being retained by Labour. The winnablity of seats at the last election after the three above was:

3 Cumbernauld & Kilsyth 1.07% swing was required
4 Kilmarnock & Loudoun 1.92% swing was required
5 Dundee West 2.13% swing was required
6 Western Isles 2.91% swing was required
7 Glasgow Govan 2.92% swing was required
8 Aberdeen Central 2.96% swing was required
9 Linlithgow 3.56% swing was required
10 Renfrewshire West 4.41% swing was required
11 Paisley South 4.91% swing was required



179

,

02/06/2008 20:24:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
180

Conan the Librarian™,

02/06/2008 20:46:40
246
A Harley Shovelhead will do nicely Col;-)
181

Conan the Librarian™,

02/06/2008 21:02:49
Hey Meths.
Forgot to ask how your gig went.
182

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/06/2008 21:04:31
FOR INFORMATION.

Unionists, Labour Union of Students and others.

For ANY STUDENT to be LESS WELL OFF under SNP Policy/legislation, s/he would have to be earning, during study years, more than £25 000/yr.

Unionist Alliance apologists should be aware of this: the electorate certainly is, as THEY are aware.

Union lies carry no credence now: they have been exposed; Wendy, Brown, Browne, Darling, Hane..........
183

Conan the Librarian™,

02/06/2008 21:06:52
hoos poos anyome?
184

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/06/2008 21:21:55
#129. Sedov.

Now that i've had a chance to read some of the comments, all I can say, Sedov, is that your comments are a disgrace to what you claim to believe.

Please refer to my #251
185

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/06/2008 21:30:42
#135, danielrober.

You are NUTS.
186

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/06/2008 21:46:45
#148' Number6.

Are you an eejit? Do you want extra police, at any cost?

Police are recruited by the same method as any business; if the applicant is assessed to be able to do the job. If there are not enough SUITABLE applicants, the post are left unfilled.

Maybe you would prefer any monkey to be a officer of the Court? Maybe you would!!!!
187

Horrigan54,

Tolsta 02/06/2008 21:47:21
What a load of rubbish - Students from high income houseolds normally end up getting most help from the government. All they have to do is declare independance from their parents and they are handed a huge loan of a couple of grant - even better if their parents are seperated. I know many colleagues of mine who are earning far more than me, but the government gives them bursaries, and huge loans which I am not entitled to - even although courses like Architecture are so demanding it is impossible to have a term time job.

Now in terms of LIT, currently the rate of exception is £5435 - I've never heard of a full time student earn more than that, but I'm sure there are cases in less demanding courses.

As for this comment "Those from better-off backgrounds and who get money from their parents will not have to pay it"

The whole fundamental basis of that is flawed - parental income should NEVER be assesed for the amount of support a student recieves. For instance - courses like Architecture cost well in excess of £1000 a year above tutition fees. When parents income is assesed it doesnt take into consideration the demands of the course.

Grants should be re-instated based not on the students parents, but on the course requirements. Nothing is said about the parents who are "high earners", (which to SAAS is pretty meagre saleries) who have to fund more than one child - this is unfair.

i just want to dispell the myth that those who get money from parents are living a cosy life - because the truth behind many cases is that the student is young, living away from home for the first time, is alone in a foreign place, has to priorities course costs before food and survival costs because their parents cant afford to give as much as the government is handing to other students (many of whom are in higher earning families, also mature students get huge subsidies too, which is unfair when help is handed out depending on how old you are rather than how needy you ar
188

Horrigan54,

Tolsta 02/06/2008 21:49:27
old you are rather than how needy you are.)

Labour can shut up - the did nothing to help students or the less fortunate in Scotland. Long live the SNP government, Free Scotland and re-introduce free education for all in Scotland. And let this student say, Bring on the Local income tax - I support its principle!
189

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/06/2008 22:03:12
#165, Grahamski.

Are you perverse, or have you educated yourself that way?

It really doesn't matter whether you think LIT is local, or national, as long as it is more equitable.

Is it based on the ability to pay?
190

Miss Gravy,

Glasgow 02/06/2008 22:36:21
I just want to add some insight from my own experience as a student dealing with finances, because from a lot of the comments here, I think there's some unfounded speculation going on that I'd like to help clear up.

I study architecture, which, as Horrigan54 rightly pointed out, is extremely demanding and generally costs upwards of £1000 per year in printing / materials costs alone.

I work, at the expense of my studies, because I can't afford not to. My parents are still together, and have relatively good jobs, (and because I live at home I can't declare myself independant from them, even though I pay them rent!) so the student loan company expect my parents to support me, and grant me the minimum amount of £800 per year in student loans.

I have to work 15 hours a week termtime to try and make up some money, on minimum wage, in a shop, (but, like many shops, we work on commission, so I probably earn £400 - £500 per month) to cover travel expenses, (which I'm again apparently not entitled to, as I live within a certain boundary, even though I spend at least £15 a week on train fares,) material costs, printing costs, pens, pencils, drawing software, etc etc. Check out the prices in your local art store sometime. Over the summer, I generally look for full time office work to pay off the overdraft which has inevitably accrued.

Last year, I earned around £7,500, plus my loan income of £800, so I already pay tax on my earnings as it's over the personal allowance threshold, which I think is ridiculous as it is. Despite this, because of all the expenses I have (which the loan companies and gverments overlook because my parents have a *combined* income of over £30,000,) my current balance is -£920, plus a credit card bill of £500.
191

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 02/06/2008 22:48:18
Hi Miss Gravy and thanks for the information. So, how do you think you will be affected by changes under the SNP? Will scrapping the graduate endowment affect you? How much of the rent you pay your parents goes on Council Tax? How much LIT do you think you'll be asked to pay? Sounds like it might be something like 3% of around 2K which means around 30 pounds a year. So when you take out the proportion of your rent that currently goes on Council Tax and the money you're saving on graduate endowment = 2, 000 pounds do feel you are worse off, the same, slightly better off or a lot better off?

In your own estimation will you be better off or worse off under the SNP government?
192

Horrigan54,

Tolsta 02/06/2008 22:57:20
Miss Gravy - I study Architecture in Glasgow too - and our year head reconmended any part time jobs be dropped - I dont know how you manage it.


Alex Young makes a good point - with or without LIT we, as students are much better off under the SNP government rather than the labour exectutive, much much much better off.

However, and I'll always make this point because we are in similar boats. Parental income means that myself and Miss Gravy recieve the lowest amout of support. (just as a note I live outwith the travel distance and spend £93.65 a month on travel with a discount card and SAAS have still found a way to not award me any expenses - for SAAS where theres a will to be tight they will be tight)

Anyway - my point will always be that the course demands should be considered when loans or grants (latter being better) are handed out. They should NOT be means tested on parental income, as its us thats studying not our parents. Architecture students will be required to spend more on their course than, say a mathematics or politics student ever will.

What we receive now will be re-payed to government by the students when they have graduated and are in good jobs. (through taxation, under the grants system).

The whole student finance system is flawed to the core - and thank God the SNP governement are standing up for students in Scotland and are trying to do something about it unlike the un-holy labour-tory alliance, determinated to punish the students of Scotland!
193

,

02/06/2008 23:35:10
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Reason:
194

PointOf View,

Edinburgh/Falkirk 03/06/2008 02:44:45
Yet again poor biased reporting by the New Labours propaganda machine The Hootsman. Front page garbage.

I really don’t get it. They appear adamant to distance themselves from the Scottish people, their sales are plummeting and its only a matter of time before they will be no more.

Come on be a true Scotsman. Declare your alliance to the Scottish people / government, or pay the consequences e.g. live by the sword and die by the sword.

195

SassyC,

Edinburgh 04/06/2008 06:10:27
257 - I agree with your comments. My 18 year old is currently at University and has received a small bursary. Her Father lives overseas and will not make his income known to us. I have since heard from Student Awards that this year they will taking step-parents income into account. This is unfair as he has his own children to support. It seems that if they can't get income details from the biological Parents then they will use whatever else is to hand. What would the scenario be if they could access my ex-Husband's income details - take his salary and my present Husband's salary into the equation thereby negating the need to offer any kind of assistance at all?

 

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If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.