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Blair seals his faith with conversion to Catholicism

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Published Date: 23 December 2007
By Jenny Percival
Westminster Editor
TONY Blair has finally become a Roman Catholic following lengthy speculation that he would convert after he resigned as Prime Minister.
He was received into the Catholic Church by the Archbishop of Westminster, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, in the chapel of the Archbishop's House in Westminster on Friday night.

His conversion from the Anglican church was widely welcomed, although critics called on him to declare whether he had fully repented and now regretted voting against Catholic teachings on social issues such as abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage and Sunday trading.

Blair's wife Cherie and four children are Catholics and Blair, now a Middle East peace envoy, has regularly attended Mass at Westminster Cathedral and Chequers.

One of his last acts as prime minister was to visit Pope Benedict in June – his third trip to the Vatican in four years – which prompted speculation that he was seeking the Pontiff's approval before converting.

Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor welcomed Blair into the church, saying: "For a long time he has been a regular worshipper at Mass with his family and in recent months he has been following a programme of formation to prepare for his reception into full communion."

Monsignor Mark O'Toole, the cardinal's private secretary, led Blair through his period of spiritual preparation before Friday night's ceremony.

The cardinal added: "My prayers are with him, his wife and family at this joyful moment in their journey of faith together."

Tory MP Ann Widdecombe, who became a Catholic in 1993, said Blair had consistently voted against Church teaching on issues including abortion and Sunday trading.

She said: "I think the crucial thing to remember is at the point you are received (into the Catholic church] you have to say individually and out loud, 'I believe everything the Church teaches to be revealed truth'.

"And that means if you previously had any problems with Church teaching, as Tony Blair obviously did over abortion, as he did again over Sunday trading… you would have to say you changed your mind.

"And I think people will want to know that he did go through that process, because otherwise it will seem as if the Church did make an exception for somebody just because of who he is."

Widdecombe said that being a Catholic should be no bar to high office in politics.

"It's perfectly possible to be a practising Catholic and play a very major role, including the most major role, in British politics in this country.

"One could really say, 'Come on Tony, you should have been setting the example. You should have been demonstrating how possible it is'.

"But really we don't know what the reasons for the delay were."

The Society for the Protection of Unborn Children (SPUC) said it was writing to Blair to ask him whether he repented of the "anti-life" positions he advocated as an MP.

John Smeaton, SPUC's national director, said: "During his premiership Tony Blair became one of the world's most significant architects of the culture of death, promoting abortion, experimentation on unborn embryos, including cloned embryos, and euthanasia by neglect."

If Blair had converted while still in Number 10, he would have become the first Catholic Prime Minister.

But his reluctance to convert sooner may have been an attempt to avoid potential conflicts in his roles in negotiating the Northern Ireland peace process and in choosing Church of England bishops.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 22 December 2007 7:18 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Tony Blair's leadership
 
1

nabodican,

Portree 23/12/2007 00:15:10
Eyeing up his next job perhaps ?
2

Shamus,

Glasgow 23/12/2007 00:33:42
That will make him defender of the faith mark 3. As well as leading the third crusade against Islam,its a guarantee of Sainthood, slightly behind Adolf, Mussolini and Franco. Shame that an Ex Nazi is in charge of the Vatican and Cardinald something of Westminster covered up a bit of abuse.But hey Tony your popularity is sure to return amongst the Lefty Faithful.
3

The Strategist,

23/12/2007 01:31:29
Anne Widdecombe is correct in saying that being a Catholic should be no bar to high office in politics.

It's when your religion interferes with your political judgement that the problems begin. This is a secular country and politics need to be secular as well.

4

Kipling,

23/12/2007 01:44:02
He had to think of something to keep him in the news.
5

Bend Over,

23/12/2007 02:00:34
Has he never read the 10 commandments, one of the biggest murderers in history what a Blasphemer
6

Jim Baxter RIP,

Sai Kung, Hong Kong 23/12/2007 02:21:19
Blair is a war criminal and they are welcome to him
7

rsandas,

crail 23/12/2007 02:34:52
I was surprised at the announcement. I thought he would have converted to Judaism.
8

rsandas,

crail 23/12/2007 02:34:53
I was surprised at the announcement. I thought he would have converted to Judaism.
9

Guga II,

Rockall 23/12/2007 03:21:29
The catholic church may forgive his sins, but the rest of the world won't. He is still a war criminal, and is directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands. We can only hope that some day he may be prosecuted for his crimes.

I only wish there was such a thing as hell, as Bliar, Bush and many others would be heading there.
10

W Smith,

Middle East 23/12/2007 03:40:31
So 'war crimial' Blair is being welcomed into the catholic church?

This kind of explains why is 'war on terror' didn't involve the IRA, seeing that his wife is Irish catholic and his father-in-law Tony Booth is an IRA supporter.

The Blair government put pressure on George Bush to re-open Sinn Feins office in Washington DC, meanwhile Scottish soldiers are being sent to Afghanistan without proper equipment.

Well done Bush for refusing to re-open SF's office and denying the IRA this opportunity to raise cash!

You just couldn't make this up.
11

Samcafe,

Glasgow 23/12/2007 04:15:15
#10 You call Blair a war criminal for enacting 'the war on terror' and then complain that he did not enact it against your preferred terrorists. Oh dear, you could not make this up.
12

Dunkerron,

Rio de Janeiro 23/12/2007 05:41:58
I am stagered by the ignorance and plain stupid bigotry of the responces to this story. I thought the Scots had better things inside them.
13

donald,

glasgow 23/12/2007 06:25:25
Maybe he wants a seat on the Board at Parkheid with all the other war criminals. You don't need a sash to be a Loyalist.
14

donald,

glasgow 23/12/2007 06:26:17
Maybe he wants a seat on the Board at Parkheid with all the other war criminals. You don't need a sash to be a Loyalist.
15

Geoff,

SA 23/12/2007 06:27:08
the press generally are implying that he sort of did "the right thing" by not converting when in office considering the official status of the C of E and the Queens position as Head of same. As a Presbytarian by upbringing(in a very different world from that of today) it is clearly time for the law of succesion to be scrapped and although it does not apply officially to the office of Prime Minister it is time that any unofficial influence be removed.In retrospect, maybe Tony should have converted whilst in office and forced the issue into Public debate. In this day and age,one's religion is and should be, a personal matter. For those on this forum,aetheists included who use this opportunity to vent bile on Blair remember the old saying"Let he who is without sin...."
16

Geoff,

SA 23/12/2007 06:30:01
14 donald-I consider myself a loyalist but not in any bigoted sense of the word.
17

Geoff,

sa 23/12/2007 06:33:35
15 Line 3 shud read"Although I am a Presbytarian by upbringing I feel it is clearly time for the law of succesion to be scrapped..."
18

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 23/12/2007 06:38:10
#10. Sad bigot. Hope Santa brings you a framed picture of Paisley and McGFuinness laughing together.

Here's a link for one if you don't have any friends to get you one, can do it yourself.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42899000/jpg/_42899189_leaders203ap.jpg

Move on, it's over!

19

Curious,

Melrose 23/12/2007 07:20:37
Frankly whatever religion Blair wishes to adopt is irrelevant. If he believes in God he has a strange way of showing it and will always remain the PM who took this country to war based on a pack of lies and lowered the level of trust in politicians to the gutter.
20

an interested party,

23/12/2007 07:23:54
big wows, he has changed the flavour of his fantasy sky god. yes it is a personal matter but when you are in a position of power it is only polite to let others know what fantasy's you believe.

another move that shows the hypocrisy of the man. and the thing is i dont thing he know he is be hypocritical
21

an interested party,

23/12/2007 07:24:43
+ some letters
22

steve 1511,

aberdeen 23/12/2007 07:48:12
blair has shown all the qualities,that catholics preach but dont practice
23

Red Tower,

Dunoon 23/12/2007 07:52:49










Let's hope his conversion causes him to renounce his murderous past.






24

Red Tower,

Dunoon 23/12/2007 08:05:45
I suppose this was inevitable. Since he, like George Bush, believes God speaks to him he is merely clearing the way for his eventual canonisation.
25

Fenland Farmer,

Cromwell's Country 23/12/2007 08:14:23
He is getting ready to become President of Europe. That's after he meets up with the three wise men in the next few day's so as to solve the middle east problem.Then the star will head towards the European Union HQ.
26

Olivers_Army,

23/12/2007 08:27:07
Good luck to him - I'd say that he and the organization he has opted to join deserve each other.
27

Olivers_Army,

23/12/2007 08:27:08
Good luck to him - I'd say that he and the organization he has opted to join deserve each other.
28

Olivers_Army,

23/12/2007 08:27:09
Good luck to him - I'd say that he and the organization he has opted to join deserve each other.
29

Patriot from Scotland,

Strachur 23/12/2007 08:28:23
AS a practising Catholic I am unenthusiastic about Bliar's arrival,but at the same time some of the comments here fill me with depair about how sad and little a land Scotland can still be. A long way to go to real independence, when people can belong to the ancient and historic faith of this land without such or indeed any comments.
30

an interested party,

23/12/2007 08:43:13
i was going to post a comment to no 30 but fear they would only take it as derogatory towards there 'god given' right to believe in stuff that doesn't excist.

31

Olivers_Army,

23/12/2007 08:46:43
#30 as a 'practising Catholic' in Scotland you are absolutely entitled to your opinions. You are still, thank God, a minority in this ancient land.
32

Olivers_Army,

23/12/2007 08:46:44
#30 as a 'practising Catholic' in Scotland you are absolutely entitled to your opinions. You are still, thank God, a minority in this ancient land.
33

Olivers_Army,

23/12/2007 08:46:44
#30 as a 'practising Catholic' in Scotland you are absolutely entitled to your opinions. You are still, thank God, a minority in this ancient land.
34

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 08:54:22
I now understand how Blair was able to go to war. The penny has finally dropped!

The catholic church has a history og unholy alliances with secular governments. Look at the evidence, monuments, priceless art, sculptures, tapestries, gold and jewels once worn or treasured by despotic rulers and gifted to the popes by kings and emperors in token partnership in a relationship that the bible condemns with absolute authority! It appears that the RC church holds scant regard for the bible. Which in itself is understandable for a person like me who has no belief in the book, but speaks volumes about the organisation who pretend to have faith in the book, yet disown and contradict all its messages whilst pretending to uphold them...
35

Patriot from Scotland,

Strachur 23/12/2007 08:54:36
Well Olivers_Army,is it really necessary to say everything three times?
36

Celtic Bhoy,

Carlisle 23/12/2007 09:02:25
Aye this posting like many overtaken by Bigots! Anyway welcome Tony to the biggest club in the world!
37

Patriot from Scotland,

Strachur 23/12/2007 09:03:13
Media 1 writes that 'It appears that the RC church holds scant regard for the bible.'

Pope Damasus 1st in 380ad finally declared what was canonical scripture and asked the monk Jerome to translate all the different languanges into Latin. This became the Latin Vulgate of St Jerome,the basis of all Bible translations today. In other words the Catholic Church gave us the Bible.
38

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 09:15:02
Patriot from Scotland

And yet they offer it little respect. (Deceit indeed)

But then deceit, power, lies, corruption and evil is the Vatican ethos.
Look back to the 1870's when Italy's independence was granted and the Papal States absorbed into the new nation. Suddenly the Pope's power was confined to the Vatican and the Vatican only for close on 60 years. THEN in 1929 pope pius XI and the fascist Mussolini, friend of Hitler, signed the Lateran Treaty. Now I ask you, would Peter, Paul or Jesus sign such a treaty with such a dispicable fascist whose friends included Adolf Hitler?
That is why I now understand how Blair could go to war without conscience. He was already indoctrinated and trained to strike deals with any person or government regardless of their depravity.
39

commonsense,

Near where I was Born 23/12/2007 09:20:36
Most people just accept the teachings,way of life of their upbringing,without question,and that is the easy route.
He may or may not have picked the correct way forward,but he has at least made a decision.Which is more than most.
40

Phil C,

23/12/2007 09:20:36
There is a repugnant bigotry running through many comments here. Sadly this is the norm in Scotland whenever someone mentions Catholics or Protestants. It's time we rose above that. Religion is a personal thing, so why can't folk keep their views to themselves. The whole point about this religion stuff is to be tolerant and giving!

I know diehard bigots from who don't go near a church, nor have anything to do with their professed 'faith'. It's more like a club thing! In fact they can be the most narrow-minded and unpleasant of people if you light the touch-paper. The State sponsored bigotry (Law of Succession, and the toleration of processions and football fanaticism) is a root cause of the continuation of religious diaharmony in Scotland. What do we do about it? Nothing.

I believe that Tony Blair is a good caring person at heart and he is entitled to do what he likes with his own faith. Unfortunately, he had to lie and cheat to get his way over an unjust war. That should be remembered and commented on, not his faith.
41

wayne bijlyeerheid,

23/12/2007 09:25:04
Now he can be forgiven for all the wrong he has ever done.
Of course if he'd already been an RC he'd have been eligible for pre-emptive absolution.
Not the first to mention that like John Reid, Ken Livingston et al., the war on terror for Blair did not include the IRA.
42

Skatedad,

23/12/2007 09:28:44
Once an a**hole always an a**hole!
43

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 09:34:14
Phil C #41

You use the WORD bigots to describe those against the Catholic church, thus attempting to stain their names and categorize them as some dark and vile organisation.
Yet you fail to offer us a WORD for those who are pro the Catholic church, or indeed a WORD to describe the Vatican itself.
The Vatican signed a concordat with Hitler..And the benefit of such an agreement would be the billions of dollars that would flow to the Roman Catholic church through the "Kirchensteuer" or church tax, throughout the duration of the war. In return pope pius XII would NEVER excommunicate Hitler from the curch, nor would he raise concerns or condemn the slaughter of all those who did not fit Hitler's profile of a master race. In essence the RC Church was a friend and partner of Hitler's. Therefore, if I am a bigot for being against this organisation, what word do we use for those who are supportive of it?
44

bill2,

troll-free FH 23/12/2007 09:35:22
You have to question the motives of a church that will welcome a wealthy unrepentant mass-murderer.

Is it just for his money, or are they preparing for a new crusade?
45

,

23/12/2007 09:44:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
46

commonsense,

North of Hadrians Wall 23/12/2007 09:45:46
#46
The people down your way that ran the crusades obviously had a different outlook than you.
That was of course in the past ,which you clearly see the benefit in moving on from,unlike too many contributing in this column.
47

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 09:47:48
happy english #46

The problem is the overwheening respect we have for religion. Why is it, that you would probably have something to say about a friend of yours who voted for a party whose ideoligies you could not understand, yet you will say nothing about his religion?
Surely if I am going to vote for a party, I must base that vote on my understanding and support of their political agenda. Therefore, when someone openly admits they are Catholic, why should it be any different to ask why they have no objection to being part of an organisation who signed concordats with Mussolini and Hitler? Or why it is that they do not question Cardinal Faulhabers decision to support HItler's decision to withdraw from the League of Nations, thus declaring to all of Germany that supporting Hitler would profess anew loyalty to the fatherland?
These are not fabricated stories, they are factual events. Therefore, if a person can be questioned for backing a unsavoury political movement, why can they not be questioned for backing a an unsavoury religious movement?
48

McMillar,

Fife 23/12/2007 09:50:38
He can do whatever he wants in his personal life and it should have no impact politics etc… However, he has already shown in the past that his decision making can be fatally flawed. Let’s hope he hasn’t based this latest turn on another ‘dodgy dossier’.
49

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

23/12/2007 10:01:45
#41

The same repugnant bigotry, as you rightly point out, arises, sadly, not only when Protestantism and Catholicism are mentioned, but also religion in general, race, same sex relationhsips, etc. The same repugnant bigots (or similar) keep posting!

Welcome to the best small country in the world.......
50

Pilrig,

Livingston 23/12/2007 10:02:31
His confessor is going to be a busy guy !

Also notice how he found it a damn sight easier to launch this country into wars than to change the bigoted Act of Settlement, from which he chickened out of changing.
51

Boy Wonder,

23/12/2007 10:04:51
I don't care whether he's a Catholic, Muslim, Jain or Jew.

This "law" that prevents Catholics from holding the highest offices in the land, ie, PM or Monarch, is ridiculous in this day and age and should be got rid of! Or shall we have our first Jewish (Disraeli was Anglican) or Muslim PM ... which is alright as long the person isn't Catholic??

There's times the UK can't point the finger of guilt at anybody, with the nonsense that's enshrined in OUR laws!

I hope we're throwing it out when we become the Republic of Scotland. As a former Catholic, I won't countenance any church involvement with the state!








52

Pilrig,

Livingston 23/12/2007 10:08:33
32 - ditto the wee Frees and serious Proddie God botherers.
53

Paulzzz,

Glasgow 23/12/2007 10:10:09
I thought it was only in the Herald where as soon as anything was published with the word "Catholic" in it that the bigots would turn out. It appears it is not just a west of scotland problem then.
54

albanman,

Edinburgh 23/12/2007 10:17:00
I'm saddened by the amount of bile in so many of the comments on this thread. Bitter hearts, closed minds, bigotted anti-Catholic attitudes, wild exaggerations and downright lies: a disgrace to this nation. Grow up.
55

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 10:19:42
albanman

I ask you then. If those who are against the organisation who supported Hitler are bigots. What do we call those who support this organisation?
56

Phil C,

23/12/2007 10:23:22
#44 & 50 Media 1.

WTF? Calm down man!

I used the WORD bigots to cover those on ALL sides who think that their 'religion' is the only right choice, who sneer at and hate the others. Unfortunately, Church and State have never been far apart and there have been some right unholy alliances, in all Churches! But what has that to do with you, me, Tony Blair, Pope Ben or anyone else? Most Religions preach good. The fact that they cause harm so often is due to the bigoted stance taken up by followers, usually based on out-dated and badly prejudiced ideas.

For the record, I do think that most of the provocative, nasty and sneering (not dark and vile) stuff comes from the Protestant side. The fact that it is so difficult to stop speaks volumes for the political will not to upset so many people!
57

JimC,

Kilmarnock 23/12/2007 10:25:05
There are many in Scotland who have no problems with people and there choice of Religion. I include myself as one of them. If I have any loathing towards any group of people it is towards those bigots who continue to spew the kind of playground rubbish above. Grow up!
58

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 10:28:58
Let us not forget Pope Pius XII and Cardinal Michael Faulhaber's support for Hitler. And the words that were spoken by the cardinal and endorsed by the Vatica.
The note from Faulhaber to Hitler is in Vatican archive, and its no secret. The note read "What the old parliaments and parties failed to achieve in sixty years, your broad vision has made possible in 6 months. This handclasp with the papacy, the greatest moral force in the history of the world, signifies a mighty deed full immense blessing and German prestige".

Pulitzer prize winner John Toland pointed out the fact that the Vatican were more than pleased to cater for Hitler's vision and pander to his ideoligies. Following a meeting between the Vatican and Hitler, the pope said " Hitler knows how to steer the ship. Even before he became Chancellor I met him and was impressed by his clear thinking and moral ideals, which the Vatican sees as noble"

Now I ask you. Is this an organisation that deserves support?
59

James,

Dundee 23/12/2007 10:32:31
Whilst I'm no fan of Blair, he can be of any religion or none of his choice.

However this choice is not extended to the highest offices in the land.

Abolish the Act of Settlement now!
60

Mcsnagpile,

23/12/2007 10:33:35
The truth is the Catholic Church of England is closer to the Roman Catholic Church than it is to other Christian beliefs in the UK. Technically CE priests are recognised by the RC church. What now separates The CE from the RC are Gay and female priests and recognition of the Pope. There is really not such a large jump for Blair
A religious belief should not have influence on political judgement. A politician is voted as per party manifesto. Politics must be secular. If a politician thinks his judgement will be impaired by religious beliefs then as a minimum he must publicly state this and let the electorate decide. If he must chose between God and his flock he must choose his flock or stand down.
61

Red Tower,

Dunoon 23/12/2007 10:34:37
I am an aetheist but I respect believers of whatever religion. I cannot see for the life of me however why a respected religious organisation should welcome a despicable little war criminal into its ranks.

The only thing that could justify this is that the example of Mary Magdalene as the supreme penitent is now wearing a bit thin. As it is now believed she was possibly not a sinner after all. However I suspect that if the Vatican is waitng for Blair to scourge himself and repent then they are going to wait until Hell freezes over.
62

Calum Crubag,

23/12/2007 10:36:05
So Blair joins with the church that supported fascism in Spain, Portugal, Italy and of course, Germany. Not to mention the church that massacred millions in a crusade against 'witchcraft'.

Blair had the gall to criticise the one-time England manager Hoddle for his relgious views on karma. Is Blair's superstition any more logical??! Virgin births? Rosary beads?! He voted for abortion and gay rights because, like most religious people, they know that religion can't stand up in the real world. We can't run a society on 'faith'! Imagine running the courts on 'faith'! "God told me to do it...." How can you disprove that?!

When will we as a society turn our backs on the evil and superstitious nonsense that is religion?
63

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 10:38:47
Phil C #59

I agree that no person should insist that theirs is the correct religion.
My angle of attack has nothing to do with Catholic people, I am attacking the The Vatican, and then asking how people can buy into the organisation knowing its history.
The typical Roman Catholic does not agree with the church on topics such as homosexuality, abortion, extra marital sex, contraception, and the need for confession, yet when it comes time to perish, the Vatica is their only hope for peace with their god.
What I fail to understand is how so people can be against the organisation they claim to support on so many topics, yet can offer allegience to that same organisation. How can they acknowledge this organisations past and its horrendous human rights record, yet trust it to deliver them to some heavenly world after this one? It just doesnt make sense!
64

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 10:47:38
The Vatican's backing of Hitler and Mussolinie as well as the Nazi regimes in France during the second world war were nothing more than an attempt to renew the The Holy Roman Empire. This is still their dream, and the more people who buy into their deceit, evil, barbaric and utterly dispicable visions are merely offering them more power.....
65

Patriot from Scotland,

Strachur 23/12/2007 10:50:23
May 6th, 1935, Pope Pius XI addressing a German pilgrimage:(translated from German)

"Almost daily We receive reports which show how loyal Catholics in Germany are persecuted and hindered from the exercise of their Faith. In the name of so-called positive Christianity efforts are being made to deChristianize Germany and lead her back to barbarous paganism. We hope that you, who have made this pilgrimage to Rome and to the Vatican, will be better
received and better treated on your return home than were those devoted and upright young people who, loyal to the Church and the Fatherland, recently came here on a visit.
66

Ninian Reid,

Edinburgh 23/12/2007 10:55:38
All is forgiven , Lord Tony ? Like HELL !
67

commonsense,

Far from South Africa 23/12/2007 11:00:34
#Media 1
If Mr Blair was to choose to become German,Japanese,Italian or South African to name but a few,you could offer up a lot of similar views as previously, regarding the part played by their leaders in past history.
I assume Mr Blair however wants to live in the present,and will not be trying to view it in the way that you appear to. If you cannot use your logic on other organisations /countries,acts from around the same time you may wish to have a think....
68

Silence of the Yams,

23/12/2007 11:02:08
Welcome to the true faith, Blair.
69

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 11:07:41
Commonsense : Try and employ some please!

If Mr Blair did in fact become a foreign national of one of those nations he would almost certainly invite comment from the media and people alike. The difference, would be that our comments would be considered acceptable and reasonable, whereas when it comes to religion, we are somehow expected to reserve our right to comment.
You mentioned the past and the present, lets look at that should we. Germany and Italy today are not supportive of their former governments, the past is in the past, whereas the Vatican is wholly supportive of all of its past Vicars of Christ regardless of their attrocious human rights records.
Perhaps you may wish to rethink your position dear sir.
70

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

23/12/2007 11:09:49
Spot on, Media 1!

And just think what NON-Catholic churches have condoned/tolerated/supported, such as apartheid in South Africa, racial segregation in the USA, slavery, persecution of "witches", and so on.

Specks of dust and motes in the eye spring to mind.....
LOL!!
71

Mcsnagpile,

23/12/2007 11:16:34
Blair thinks like a politician. He has now become part of the only central politically structured religion in the world. If the CE becomes reintegrated into the RC, the Celtic Protestants--Presbyterians, Methodists etc. will become marginalised, (Something for the SNP to think about). Religions controlled by the state have lost credibility with the loss of the old infrastructures after the two European civil wars. The age of globalization has presented a brand new scenario.
There are no atheists in Saudi Arabia.
72

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 11:21:29
Major General Puffin Stuff

Absolutely, you could write a document stretching from here to the moon and back with all the attrocities performed in the name of religion.
However, with the catholic church the situation is somewhat more critical.
Their attrocities have been administered longer and more brutally than all the others. And when one considers this barbaric past and recognises that the RC pope has often been the most powerful man on Earth, and in many ways still is, it sends a shiver down your back. The pope today, may no longer have massive armies at his disposal, but he does have 1 billion followers, at least 3 times the number of citizens in any western democracy and second only to the population of china. When you then consider that many of these followers command high military, political and intelligence positions, the shiver down the spine intensifies.
Then you must also include the Popes secret agencies, such as the Jesuits, The Knights of Columbus, Knights of Malta, Opus dei and many others, the Vaticans intelligence service is second to none.
Is this just a religious organisation? Is this the sort of religious organisation that a true believer in Christ wants to commit him or herself?
73

jdships,

Trinity 23/12/2007 11:32:23
Having read the article and , to date, 78 posts I have to ask the question -
"So what " ? I am neither interested/concerned in what religeos faith Blair has now accepted or anyone else for that matter .

As usual the media cranks up the heat and encourages secterianism !
No wonder I am happy as an agnostic !!!!!!



74

A.L.M.,

Ayr 23/12/2007 11:34:57
It is a very sad reflection on Mr. Blair's period as Prime Minister that so many puople now question the honesty of anyone connected with politics.
One is left wondering who one can really trust now adays
75

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

23/12/2007 11:38:38
#78

Could this just be, Media 1, that the RC church has simply been around longer than any other "Christian" organisation?

I don't know which particular branch of "Christianity" you subscribe to, if you do, but in that case wouldn't your comments just begin to stink of the rankest hypocrisy, and maybe MY comments about specks of dust and motes in the eye deserve to be addressed?
76

A.L.M.,

Ayr 23/12/2007 11:42:19
Sorry for my bad typing earlier!
Yes I do know how to spell "People" and "Nowadays! !!
77

Media 1,

Cape Town 23/12/2007 11:48:45
Major General Puffin

I dont belong to any religious organisation, and I hold no grudge or dislike to those who do.
I am only asking the question.
Based on this particular organisations past, its total support for Hitler and its absolutely vile human rights record coupled with its present support for these past papal monsters. Is this the RIGHT organisation for a person with moral fibre and a belief in God?
78

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/12/2007 11:54:28
78 Media 1. Good posts.

The Catholic Church in Brazil recently commissioned advertising telling people they would go to hell if they used condoms - a great contribution to the fight against HIV/AIDs. Similar to its contribtions to population growth in Mexico. The Catholic church of course campagned long and hard against legalisling divorce and abortion in Ireland.
79

Montague Q X Burton,

23/12/2007 11:55:54
Can't help but feel that Blair is about make a move on the Vatican. New Catholicism, anyone?
80

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

23/12/2007 12:01:09
#83 Media 1

I didn't actually ask if you BELONG to any religious organisation, but was merely inquiring whether your personal belief system guides you towards any of the Heinz 57 varieties of non-Catholic Christianity. I am agnostic, before you ask. Your coyness, and even evasiveness, on this subject intrigues me.
81

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 12:04:02
The most amazing thing about many Catholics today, is that most of them indulge in their very own reformation to this day. MANY Catholics around the world are protestants in protest against their churches views on Divorce, Homosexuality, Contraception, Abortion and many other issues. The difference now, is that they are not murdered by the pope for harbouring these views, so no need to change their religion or feel afraid of the church.
In essence, we presently have around 1 billion Catholics around the world, and 90% of them are protesters in some way or another! A few hundred years ago, that 90% would have needed to change to protestantism! Which says just about as much as we need to say about the organisation in question, and the people who support her.
82

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 12:08:07
Major General Puffin

Whether you are agnostic, a believer or an athiest is of no interest to me, nor does your belief system matter in terms of this thread.
I am only asking whether a person who feels a belonging with the god entity, would not be better off looking elsewhere for guidance.
83

Patriot from Scotland,

Strachur 23/12/2007 12:10:42
You are a sad soul Media 1,whoever you are.
84

Helen,

23/12/2007 12:11:14
Mcsnagpile #63 - "Technically CE priests are recognised by the RC church. What now separates The CE from the RC are Gay and female priests and recognition of the Pope. There is really not such a large jump for Blair"
This is not actually true. In 1896 Pope Leo XIII issued a Papal Bull called 'Apostolicae Curiae' which declared Anglican orders null and void. That Papal Bull 110 years later has never been revoked. Therefore an Anglican priest converting to Roman Catholicism becomes a lay person. I'm a practising Catholic who passionately believes in women's ordination and it sickened me to see Anglican clergy converting because of their vile misogyny then being ordained as Catholic priests. Many of them are married despite Canon Law 1041.3 which states that anyone who is married, has been married or has attempted to be married cannot be ordained...so these men were ordained in breach of a Papal Bull and the Code of Canon Law!! When I wrote to my Bishop about this I was advised that these were 'exceptional circumstances'. I wonder how exceptional it felt to all the wonderful Catholic priests who have had to leave active ministry to get married felt?
I long for an inclusive church where no-one is discriminated against on the grounds of gender, marital status or sexuality.
85

Purlie Wilson,

Melbourne Oz 23/12/2007 12:12:23
Alas the "opium" of the masses still at work I see!!

Pope Tony 1st.?
86

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/12/2007 12:12:31
92 Why? Because he doesn't endorse an organisation which promotes discrimination, opposes women's rights and continues to campaign actively against public health measures? He may be quite happy.
87

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 12:13:38
Patriot from Scotland

If I am a "sad sole" for questioning the Roman Catholic church and their disgraceful past and present day support for the vicars of christ who were friends of Hitler, what does that make those who are in favour of the organisation, and never question their past?
88

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

23/12/2007 12:14:28
#91 Media 1

I would have thought that much of this thread is very much about belief systems. But carry on being coy and evasive - that speaks volumes,
89

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

23/12/2007 12:17:57
#96

"Sad sole" indeed - much of what you say seems pretty fishy!
90

Sue DeNym,

23/12/2007 12:23:58
My! What a load of vitriolic nastiness!

The religion problem lies in fundamentalism; Christian fundamentalists, Islamic fundamentalists, Jewish fundamentalists, even secular fundamentalists - it is politics hiding under a cloak of spirituality. They see in black and white, yet the world is many shades of color.

The rest, My Dears, is whatever gets you through the dark night of the soul. "Harm none, and do as ye will." This should threaten none, unless one's world view is "My way or no way".
91

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 12:24:29
And speaking of the reformation. It is so far removed from time that its real issues have been forgotten. Modern day protestants have very vague ideas of what was actually protested all those years ago...Simple Christian movements were in existence long before the reformation. These movements abhorred the blasphemy that the RC church displayed and practiced,and for this they were hunted down and murdered in their hundreds of thousands! Let us not forget that Pius III murdered over 60 000 people in one day and called the crowning achievment of his papacy!
There were many more reasons, the Crusades were just one reason.
92

phil anscombe,

23/12/2007 12:27:41
If Blair makes his confession, what priest would believe him?
93

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/12/2007 12:32:14
104. Oh, I don't know. Did not the WMD transubstantiate or something? They are quite into improbable explanations for things.
94

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 12:33:17
Major General Puffin

I am unlike you.
Look at this way.
If I am to commit myself to a political party or religious organisation, I must be true to myself and ensure that I am happy with what that party or organisation stands for.
In the case of the RC church, is this the sort of organisation that best represents peace and harmony? Is this friend of Hitler the right organisation for people who seek guidance?
And is it not worth questioning the motives of a person who can look at a religious organisation or political party and say, "well this organisation has 30 belief systems or rules, of which 29 are in no way representative of me or my character, but there is one rule that I really can relate to, therefore, thats the organisation for me"
I am only questioning this organisations past for all its horror, and then wondering why the present leaders still support and respect that history and all the past vicars of christ, regardless of the horror they dispensed on innocent thousands!
95

Evan Owen,

Dyffryn Ardudwy 23/12/2007 12:39:49
Pope Tony Bliar?

Nothing surprises me any more, he waited until he was dethroned before telling the truth about his riligious bent.
96

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 12:48:02
I have been accused of being a bigot or a lost soul for questioning the dignity of an organisation who openly supported Hitler and Mussolini, and signed concordats with them. This organisation and many of its past popes were also responsible for the murder of countless thousands. Today's leaders still support and respect these former vicars of chirst who acted so savagely.
Therefore, my question is this! If I am a bigot or a lost soul for condenming this organisation and their past, what do we call people who support them?
97

Geoff,

sa 23/12/2007 12:54:07
96 Meths-no need to use condoms and become a sinner-just do what our next President, Jacob Zuma does and have a shower after sex with an HIV positive person!
98

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

23/12/2007 13:01:38
#108
And thank goodness I'm QUITE unlike you.

No, Media 1, you have been accused of being a SAD soul,
but you are in reality a rather tedious very blinkered one-trick pony, whose continual whinnying is getting very boring, my poor "sad sole".
99

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 13:05:47
It might also be said that Catholics have no chance of saviour, in religious terms that is. How can you be saved, when you are lost?
If we remember who the reformers were, we realise how corrupt and decietful the Catholic church was. The reformers were Catholic priests who eventually came to the realisation that the Roman Catholic church was not preaching or administering a biblical message that saved, but rather a false doctrine that purposely misled.
Catholic people were not offered the opportunity to form a personal relationship with Jesus or god, but were rather forced into a bondage situation with the church in the hope that they would get to meet god after life, if they obeyed the Church. In otherwords, the reformation was essential for those who were indeed religious, godly and moral. For they recognised that in Catholicism, a persons salvation did not come from an ongoing and respectful relationship with christ, but rather through an ongoing pratice of ritual, worship and obedience to the Church of Rome. God and Jesus were secondary, in fact they were less than scondary. The pope, his power, and the power of the church was far more important!
One can only imagine how evil the church was, that its very own people disowned it and formed a new religion!
100

Media 1,

23/12/2007 13:08:39
#110 Major Puffin

In conclusion then, we have established that I am against any organisation who condones what Hitler did, I am against an organisation with a horrific human rights history, and you are a supporter of the organisation who supported Hitler and murdered thousands.
And I am the lost soul? lmao
101

Patriot from Scotland,

Strachur 23/12/2007 13:11:25
I thought my posting 68 made it very clear that the Vatican was no friend of Adolf Hitler. All these mass murders etc exist only in the fervent imagination of Media 1. But there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.The papal encyclical of 1937,Mit Brennender Sorge, utterly condemning the NAZI Third Reich,can be read (in Englsih) at;
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pi11mb.htm
102

Tourist Guide,

23/12/2007 13:13:12
#111

As evil as some fundamentalist branches of Islam?
103

Geoff,

sa 23/12/2007 13:23:09
110 Lance corporal Puffin-much of your general comment has been valid-pity you have to spoil it with personal and intolerant comments such as in 110 altho my pal Media 1 can no doubt look after himself!!
Also-"Sad Sole"?Somethingfishy here?
Sorry bout that last comment-ouch.
104

Mcsnagpile,

23/12/2007 13:24:28
Helen of 93 The CE priests are recognised due to the succession of laying on of hands by ordained priests (so called) traceable back to Peter. The Papal Bull being legislation can easily be revoked.

The real problem with female priests is in the final assessment--- men will not respect them in the morning. If men are not prepared to make the sacrifice and leave it to women then Christianity is finished. Football is already more popular amongst men than religion. I have seen many times one fertile woman and even old men competing, in the raw men will even come to blows and kill. Stupid but true, education will not change this scenario.
As a humanist I believe order is better than chaos
105

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 13:28:44
Patriot of Scotland
#68 says little or nothing! Those are words,lets look at the facts and the actions.
Unlike the Germans who were interested in what they deemed as efficient means of extermination, the Catholic Ustashi, with priests and bishops participating and offering their blessing, took pleasure from torturing before before killing.
Their victims were not shot, they were drowned, burned, strangled or stabbed to death and the serbs were herded into Orthodox churches by Ustashi who barred the doors and torched the timbers...
The slaughter of the serbs is as real, as is the RC Church concirdat's with Musollini and Hitler.
The VATICAN was so appreciative of its full partnership with the Nazi's that it asked god to bless the Reich.
It ordered German bishops to swear allegiance to the nationalist social regime. The Vatican supported the Nazi regime to the point that it said "we will endeavor to avoid all detremental acts, which might endagnger the Reich"
On HItler's birthday special votive masses were held in every RC German church to implore god's blessing upon the Feuhrer.
You cannot pretend to be spreadoing the word of god to tbe masses and then support a monster like Hitler. Nor can you pretend to be a modern day supporter of Christ when you endorse the actions of the past popes..The past is still present because all the names of all the murderers and supporters of Nazi Germany are still on the list of the vicars of christ...
106

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

23/12/2007 13:29:59
#112 Media 1

Excuse me? Your "conclusion" is as risible as the rest of your "intellectual" argument. I await with interest any evidence you can point to showing that I am "a supporter of the organisation who supported Hitler and murdered thousands". Was that Hitler, by way, or the organisation you are railing against? In both cases it must be millions, surely?

I have long ceased to expect rational discussion on any point from you - indeed any rational argument is what you blatantly ignore to continue with your pathetic obsession.
107

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

23/12/2007 13:35:59
#115 Geoff

Thank you for your kind comments. Unfortunate that your little "dig" has backfired! If you look at #96, you will see that it is your pal Media 1 who called himself a "sad sole" (sic). Fishy indeed! Ouch back with knobs on, old boy!!
108

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 13:40:26
Major General
You have made no real points in any of your posts. In all of them, you have focussed on me, as opposed to the organisation I am attacking. Not once have you cared to comment on the Church of Rome and their horrific past and present day refusal to extingusih the names of those popes responsible for mass extermination and Nazi support. Your argument has been centred around me, which I find alarming.
I am just one person on a cyber notice board Mr Puffin. My views are merely views based on factual evidence supplied by the Vatican to whoever wants it. In that regard, the Vatican IS OPEN and honest, they do nothing to hide their horrendous past, nor do they apologise for it.
It is that past that I am questioning, and I am asking whether you think that is the right sort of organisation for people who are truly seeking a relationship with the god entity.
My personal position is of no importance, just as your agnostic, or stting on the fence approach has little to do with the thread. It has always been about the RC church, its past and its refusal to condemn that past.
I may not be blessed with the most gifted intellect, but I have proved here today, that I am capable of thinking at a level, which far exceeds the boundaries to which your mind is shackled.
109

Geoff,

Suid afrika 23/12/2007 13:53:15
Major Gen Ps-no need to be so crabby!
110

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

23/12/2007 13:58:19
#120 Media 1

And yet your "pal" Geoff states that much of my general comment has been valid.........

Strange that you have been unable to find evidence to back up your desperately accusatory "conclusion" that I am a supporter of the Catholic church. So much for your capacity for "thinking at a level which far exceeds the boundaries to which (my) mind is shackled".

LOL!!
111

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

23/12/2007 14:00:38
Geoff - I think you're floundering there!
112

Geoff,

South Africa 23/12/2007 14:04:46
In general I am surprised that the undeniably cerebral Tony Blair would pledge allegiance to the Roman Catholic Church- I am not anti Catholic per se-some of my best friends are etc-but in my personal opinion it does have lots to answer for-its hushing up and condoning by omission of widespread child abuse, the strange and unnatural doctrine of celibacy for its clergy and other matters but as I say these are personal thoughts. If becoming an RC blows tony's sox off-hey, who are we to judge. What the world needs is compassion,tolerance and respect for others-if we could spread this doctrine then it all falls into place. Many religions including, but not only the RC church,are of dubious character and would do well to follow the doctrines they PURPORT to support.
113

Geoff,

sa 23/12/2007 14:07:22
Having a Whale of a time,General!
114

Geoff,

Sa 23/12/2007 14:14:44
123 Colonel- Media 1 IS my pal-a valued ally in another cause! What I meant was you expressed some good and valid points in an articulate manner. Dont want to get involved in your one on one though!
115

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

23/12/2007 14:18:29
Amen to that, Geoff. And may the Piece of Cod that passes all understanding go with you.

Meanwhile it's 14:20 here, and I'm off out to do some last minute Christmas shopping.
116

Alberto.,

23/12/2007 14:24:40
From the experience ‘we’ have had of Blair and his 'loose truths' 'myths and fantasies' surely, with any logical thought, one can see that this 'religion' move, knowing Blair with his activities and ideals in the past, is nothing more than, as he will see it (no doubt guided and driven be his ‘ money grabbing’ wife) as a great financial event, and as we a know from reports his 'financial' situation seems to be in a critical state - or may be very soon!

As it seems his only opportunity of resolving his financial position is by 'gathering in - not really earning' on his much advertised and seemingly highly profitable lecture tours - mainly, and probably only, to the gullible American market, and heaven knows why they would want to listen to and pay expensively to do so, to such a man is beyond belief - but then, as it is said ' Only in America!'

As I understand that America is largely/mainly a Catholic Country (seemingly USA style!) perhaps Blair, with his usual financial opportunity and vision, especially in matters of personal financial 'Nice little earners' has chosen 'the Right path' no doubt with guidance from his God - or whoever!

Shall we soon be hearing American cries of ‘Tony for President’ (after all, they may consider him a far better actor than either ‘Ronald or Arnie’), and I imagine it’s better paid, with far
greater Perks than the Pope could ever wish to see - plus the much coveted title ‘Strongest leader in the world’ - eat your heart out Arnie!

They may want to bring in the question of character, for the position of ‘First Lady’ into the discussion - and that may just ruin things!


117

Pilrig,

Livingston 23/12/2007 14:40:33
Jesus saves but Benji scores the rebound !
118

Pilrig,

Livingston 23/12/2007 14:40:33
Jesus saves but Benji scores the rebound !
119

Geoff,

sa 23/12/2007 14:43:59
happy Christmas Major G-can feel a Christmas Tuna coming on!
120

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 15:00:08
Major Puffin

YOU! Were quick to support the view that I was a lost soul. And you based that conclusion on the basis that I was against the Catholic church for all of the MANY reason I have mentioned above.
It is therefore reasonable for me to conclude, that you must either think of me as a lost soul because one cannot possibly speak about the RC Church in such a manner, or it some other reason you have failed to disclose.
I unlike you, have stated my views on the RC Church, I have also backed those feelings up with the reasons as to why I feel that people seeking solice in god should maybe look to another organisation for that guidance, whereas you have offered little other than name calling, which is odd considering you yourself stated that this thread was very much about our own belief systems. Yours we believe is agnostic! But that is all we know......Perhaps that is why you offer no comment on the RC Church, sitting on the fence appears to be your comfort zone.
121

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 15:10:35
Any way!
Blair has announced his religious position and that is that.
We can all make of it as we feel, and I feel that he has united himself with the most corrupt, vile and dispicable organisation the world has ever known. I do not base these feelings on some unexplainable notion or blinkered ideology, but rather on the evidence available regarding the history of the organisation in question.
That coupled with that same organisations position on homosexuality, contraception and abortion as well as their total and utter refusal to remove the names of those past barbaric monsters who made up their ranks from the vicars of christ list, is reason enough to despise such an organisation. (In my book anyway)
What would one say of the German government today, if they NEVER distanced themselves from Hitler or the Nazi regime, and still to this day, listed Hitler as one of their own?
The RC Church must be ridiculed, they are a disgrace to humanity.
122

Phil C,

23/12/2007 15:56:55
"I feel that he has united himself with the most corrupt, vile and dispicable organisation the world has ever known. I do not base these feelings on some unexplainable notion or blinkered ideology,..."

Poor Media 1, you've had a busy and unproductive day with your history lessons. Your blinkered and unexplained idealogy does you no favours!

Does nobody else think that Tony's troubles started with his open dabbling with Catholicism? Was Saint Tony brought down by the work of God or did those secret stoneworkers and sons of the manse have something to do with it?!.. or was he just a lying twit?
123

Media 1,

cape town 23/12/2007 16:16:42
Phil C

As I already said, if I am blinkered because I am no friend of Hitler or any person, organisation or country that befriended him, then so be it!
It is odd that you say I did not explain my ideology. Becuase in truth, I have merely been quoting that very history lesson you spoke about from Vatican documents and archives that each person on this forum is entitled to read whenever they chose to investigate the very foundation of the church.

It is odd, how people are ridiculed and treated with disdain when they speak highly of Hitler, but when the RC Church does it, and people around the world react to that partnership with abhorrence, it is they who are called blinkered. (Frustration in knowing the truth is what leads the flock to re-act so vehemently to those who disclose the truth)
If the German chancellor came out tomorrow and put Hitler's name up along side all the German chancellors in a document or a monument, which carried as much importance as the vicars of christ list, would there be an outcry?
I rest my case
124

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

23/12/2007 16:29:36
#133

Poor old Media 1, still beavering away on the same old theme - I can't help agreeing with Phil C's comment (#135). Still flinging these totally unsubstantiated allegations about, I see; I have never supported the view that you were a "lost soul" - a "sad soul", yes, it's a Scottish expression meaning someone to be pitied, and NOT in any religious sense - numpty is another Scottish expression that would probably describe you.

Anyway have a nice Christmas - are you going to Midnight Mass tomorrow night? - and may your god go with you.
125

AM..2,

23/12/2007 16:36:38
Shown his true colours. Joined the inbreds and wean shaggers, next thing he will be in The News of The world caught up a choir boy.
he sold out on Ireland now it is clear why he is nothing but a fenian sympathiser, no wonder he is hated at the Palace.
126

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

23/12/2007 16:43:09
"The RC church must be ridiculed.........."

Media 1, please carry on - you're doing a grand job of doing exactly that to yourself.
127

jdships,

Edinburgh 23/12/2007 17:00:52
After reading 140 posts what comes across the most clearly is that the majority of the people who have posted are purely and simply entrenched in their own beliefs and no matter who try's to "persuade" them otherwise will never even try to see the other persons point.

Religeon - have sampled it , discussed it , tryed to understand it etc etc without getting any satisfaction from "it"
Decided a few years ago it's not for me , I can "live" without it thank you !!
128

Reckless,

Fife 23/12/2007 17:53:20
I'm no expert on world events, but I strongly suspect there is a sinister reason for Herr Blair's decision to become a Roman Catholic.

Didn't the Pope say that he wanted to unite the world's religions. There was also talk of the Anglicans going back to the mother church.

Scary indeed.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/ushering_in_the_one_world_religion.htm

The world is becoming more and more wicked. Blair and Bush and no more Christian than Pingu.

How can a member of Skull & Bones and a 33rd Degree Freemason, with their satanic rituals, be a true Christian. "Members meet in the Bones "tomb" on Thursday and Sunday evenings of each week over the course of their senior year."

Christan indeed, and people believed them! Even the elect will be deceived in the last days.

Let's not forget that Bush's grandpa was a Nazi.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html

http://www.illuminati-news.com/skull-&-bones-memberlist.htm
129

Guga II,

Rockall 23/12/2007 18:20:12
#30 Just out of curiosity, how long will you have to keep practising before you get it right?
130

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 23/12/2007 18:21:58
#10.... You are correct in what you say!I would like to add that,had their been a real war on terror then many members of the British army----R.U.C.-----U.D.R.----UVF---UDA and other sectarian murder gangs would have to have been hunted down,as many members of the aforementioned groups were guilty of the most horrible murders of innocent Roman Catholics in the north east of Ireland over the last thirty years.
131

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 23/12/2007 18:30:08
#139 Oh dear! Oh dear! you are getting a bit heated under the collar with your anti-Catholic bigotry. You seem to have forgotten about the Kincora boys home scandal in Belfast, when leading members of the orange order were found guilty of disgusting sex acts against young boys.hate filled bigots like you have a sectarian sickness which eventually eats you up.
132

Shamus,

Glasgow 23/12/2007 18:32:36
Well done Tony (not for being just another Pape) But for taking on Islam. The Islamists have been spreading their poison for decades. It was not before time that some people said Enough! Well done man. The so called secularists and looney lefties on this page would perhaps rather spend the day kneeling on a carpet praying to something that does not exist.
133

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 23/12/2007 18:33:11
#135 You forgot to add the orange order and the royal blacks to your list!
134

Hunky Dorey,

23/12/2007 18:35:13
#134.... Don't be to harsh on the Germans.Your queen is one!
135

Hunky Dorey,

23/12/2007 18:50:32
Media 1..... I think that you are quite sick in the head if you think that the world's 1 billion Catholics are going to listen to a runt of a bigot like you .What church did you attend to-day?none I suppose. You anti Catholic bigots are all the same,you believe in nothing only your own sectarian infested egos.So! get a life!and mind your own faults first.The Catholic church is here to stay so get used to it ,and I say, God bless the Pope and good luck to you Tony Blair in making the right choice in converting to the one true church founded by Jesus Christ.St.Peter was the first Pope. See gospel Matthew...chapter 16 verses 16-19. Read and believe! To all I say ,happy Christmas(the mass of Christ),and good night to you all.
136

Calum Crubag,

23/12/2007 19:06:05
Aye right Hunky... and Catholics aren't bigoted? At least the ones who follow the group of auld men who happily let child molesters loose on their flocks.

Most Catholics probably don't follow all these ridiculous teachings. It is ordinary Catholics who are the main victims of these heidcases - the boys and girls abused in schools and convents, women scared to abort unwanted children, the people of those countries where Vatican-supported fascist regimes floursihed...

Time to bin ALL religion.
137

Patriot from Scotland,

Strachur 23/12/2007 19:15:12
Aye Hunky Dorey,Media 1 is certainly possessed of a lot of hate=filled baggage. I realy hope he (and not she as women rarely have that much hatred)lives in Capetown and not Scotland. I thought it was only 'blacks' these people hated,but not so it seems.
138

Geoff,

South Africa 23/12/2007 19:36:35
151 patriot-you shouldnt talk about hate filled baggage concerning others whilst dishing it out yourself! 'These people' dont hate blacks any more than 'they' hate Catholics or any other generalised group. Sometimes things get a little robust here and one says things that in retrospect might have offended. Every individual and organisation must look to himself/itself-none of us are without 'sin' and valid criticisms should be answered honestly. Hey but this is heavy stuff. I'm going to have a 'dop' with my missus. Have a peaceful Christmas all and whether one is a christian or not we should remember the remarkable individual who gave this festival its name .
139

Geoff,

SA 23/12/2007 19:49:28
And a Peaceful and prosperous Christmas to the Management and Staff of the Scotsman-and thanks for allowing ALL shades of opinion to be expressed in this forum.
140

Geoff,

SA 23/12/2007 19:52:03
Oops! and the same of course to Scotland on sunday!
141

Phil C,

23/12/2007 19:56:15
#151 Patriot

Media 1 is a well known Jambo (sums him up!) who says he resides in Stockbridge sometimes. He thinks he is Scottish but is quite close to AM2 in ideology. Today he has been unveiled as the the worst kind of anti-Catholic bigot. He's always been rigidly pro Union (like many anti-Catholics) and fires his mono syllabic rhetoric from far off.

If there were less people like him the world would be a better place.
142

Pilrig,

Livingston 23/12/2007 19:57:27
135 - "Sure it's old but it is beautiful"
well at least the wife thinks it is ! : )
143

Phil C,

23/12/2007 19:58:57
#151 Oops2, To you Patriot@147 (Geoff's fault!)
144

Pilrig,

Livingston 23/12/2007 20:27:09
142 - well you know, yourself !
145

Geoff,

23/12/2007 21:01:10
"And its colours they are fine...",
146

morris,

edinburgh 23/12/2007 21:20:05
What happened to THOU SHALT NOT KILL ?Has it dropped out of the Top Ten Commandments?

You have to be a [racticising Christian before you can be a Catholic surely!

Or is the Vatican donating money to the Labour Party maybe,but through a UK registerd business of course .

Either way this is shocking news for the Church of Rome's reputation being associated with this war criminal.
GOD WORKS IN MYSERIOUS WAYS INDEED
147

Shamus,

Glasgow 23/12/2007 21:41:40
#156. Your as daft as Blair. Who is god! Get a grip.
148

allymax,

upvinesass, scotland. 23/12/2007 21:43:29
When bliar said 'and if I'm wrong, then God will judge me', I knew then he was a nutter. Hundreds of thousands dead, and more injured with the loss of family loved-ones, all because HE thought he was right. Any murderer can use this statement but will get locked up, why not b-liar?


Having a power fanatic and fundementalist like him with his finger on the button is terrifying.
149

Kipling,

. In the DoomRay Chapel 23/12/2007 22:11:54
There's no need to create a relationship between Blair, Roman Catholicism and Nazism. The very fact that Blair has promoted the right to abortion would horrify many papists. Those R.C.s who take their religion seriously during the week as well as on Sunday would see both abortion and contraception as against the teachings of the Church (as well as potentially being murder) -- although I suspect adding to their number and having such an infamous convert might overwhelm the principles of some of the stricter ones.

"Westminster, 7 July 2004 - The Society for the Protection of Unborn Children (SPUC), Europe's largest pro-life group and the world's first pro-life lobbying and educational organisation, has rejected as "spin" comments by Tony Blair, the Prime Minister, and David Steel, abortion law pioneer, on abortion law reform.

"Anthony Ozimic, SPUC political secretary, commented: 'Both Tony Blair and David Steel are unrepentant promoters of ever greater access to abortion, and no one should be duped by their spin about their alleged re-think on abortion.'"

Again, what was Blair doing in the participation of having Rowan Williams appointed as Archbishop of Canterbury? Surely at this stage, with his leanings towards papism, he should have opted out. But no, our Blair likes to have his fingers in all parts of the power pudding. The irony is inescapable, CofE having one of their most senior spokemen voted in by an aspiring Catholic convert?

#10. Thank you for this. It explains why the first anti-Blairites, such as myself, have problems with many an irish person as well as Cherry's legal mates. I didn't realise she had irish ancestry. All is explained.
150

Louis W. McHardy, Sr.,

Baton Rouge, Louisiana 23/12/2007 23:18:50
My grandparents immigrated from Scotland - the Tomintoul area - in the late 19th Century. One of the reasons was to escape the maltreatment of Roman Catholics in Scotland and elsewhere in the UK. My family members were not converts. They were Catholic for many generations past in the same area of Northeast Scotland. I am surprised and most disappointed and amazed to observe that Catholicism is so hated today in Scotland. May the Good Lord bring you peace and release from your bigotry.
151

Clonmines,

Glasgow 23/12/2007 23:37:42
Its rather obvious from many of the comments left here why Blair held off - imagine the reaction had he converted while in office! I don't think many of the public in UK are currently handling the subject of faith and religion very well just now. They are responding with militant atheism, Fuzzy Fidelity or ignorant mockery. I wish that those with no faith would shut up at times - if they're really not interested in it why keep jumping in at times like this? I say congratulations Mr Blair and welcome. I applaud anyone who takes their faith seriously and personal development here will be easier away from the pressures of an impossible job. The timing is fine and I think the Northern Ireland Assembly needed to know where the UK was with it - not Catholic Tony.
152

weeshooie1,

Australia 24/12/2007 00:45:25
Merry Christmas to all of the bigots out there, wherever and whoever you are. Long live Scotland, in all of it's guises.
153

Shamus,

Glasgow 24/12/2007 00:50:02
#160, Louis, Its seems that you are not aware of the dictatorial ways of the Catholic Church. And of course the murder and torture committed for hundreds of years against anyone that disagreed with them. But maybe you do know and like many Catholics, are prepared to pretend it did not happen because it was in the name of the Truth. Scottish people can suss out religious nutters. Do not call us bigots for exposing them!
154

Clonmines,

Glasgow 24/12/2007 01:32:11
#160Shamus, 'many Catholics' like all Christian faiths denounce abhorrent acts carried out in the name of Christ, indeed councils have addressed the misuse of power by so called leaders e.g. kings, queens etc. claiming to be carriers of the Truth. The church that is practiced today is a one based on the love of Christ - a truth which is accesible by all, is not rocket science and enables the person towards peace. I'd be just as happy if Mr Blair became a different denomination. A willingness to embrace faith and practice is commendable. There is absolutely no agenda of murder and torture today in any Christian faith. Please do not misrepresent any denomination with this nonsense mentality. Have some respect and a happy and holy Christmas instead.
155

Shamus,

Glasgow 24/12/2007 02:09:07
#164, Clonmines. I appreciate your sense of humour.
156

Navvy,

24/12/2007 03:21:44
The use of the word Catholic is odd the correct phrase is ROMAN Catholic. Most, if not all branches of the Christian church call themselves Catholic which means universal. One of the differences is that the Roman church does not accept the others as being "proper Christians" while the CofE and the CofS and others accept all who "profess" Christianity. The Roman church forgets that it in not the oldest church. It is not even the oldest church in Britain.

As for crusades, Muslims sometimes forget that most of the middle east was Christian before the arrival of the profet Mohammad
157

Patriot from Scotland,

Strachur 24/12/2007 07:46:22
The idea that all churches are 'Catholic' began to appear only in the 19th century. The authority of the Roman Church (the Church that is in the city of Rome and its Bishop) has had primacy since Peter.There are quite a number of sources from the early church to confirm this. Here is the earliest dated ,110 AD ,from Ignatius Bishop of Antioch ,who himself was ordained by the Apostle John.

Ignatius of Antioch Letter to the Romans 3:1

You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force.
158

bill2,

24/12/2007 08:42:17
164
Clonmines

"There is absolutely no agenda of murder and torture today in any Christian faith."

Then why has the Roman Catholic Church admitted unrepentant Blair to its ranks?

159

james 1st,

hamilton 24/12/2007 10:35:07
the man should have had the courage to convert years ago if he truly had faith. the fact that he has left conversion so late would seem to suggest that he is little more than a hypocrite. i cannot understand why the catholic church would welcome him it certainly does their faith no service
160

Clonmines,

Glasgow 24/12/2007 11:16:41
168 Bill2. Not quite sure what you mean. I'm assuming that you're trying to tie the tenuous link of death in Iraq to scapegoat Tony only (i.e. not the cabinet and UK people who wanted the war.) I disagreed with UK here but thats not the point. Is it also not the case that other politicians have Christian faiths and have made poor and fateful judgements - politics is rife with it. Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone. The Christian church is for all, and especially the sinners. Conversion means to change one's ways.
161

bill2,

24/12/2007 12:13:06
170
Clonmines

I mean that the man deliberately took us into an illegal war in Iraq, knowing that many innocents would die. He did not make a mistake, he knew what he was doing and is unrepentant.

I also mean that he allowed the CIA rendition flights to use UK facilities, and did not protest about the torture used by his friend Bush against captives at Guantanamo and other locations.

Yes, the Christian church is for all, but not unrepentant sinners, and he has no place in any church.
162

Clonmines,

Glasgow 24/12/2007 12:35:16
171, Bill2, I disagree. But I do share your anger at Blair and I thinked history will show endlessly how poor his (and others) judgement was.
Have a nice Christmas.
163

bill2,

24/12/2007 16:32:35
172
Clonmines

Not sure what it is you disagree with, but best wishes for Christmas to you as well.

Let us hope that men of good will will prevail, and that peace will break out.
164

Cyril,

New Zeakand 25/12/2007 02:40:59
As a WW2 veteran I am ahamed to have fought for the freedom of the likes of the cowardly bigots who live in Scotland and elsewhere. Thankfully we do not get it in this country where people are judged by themselves and not by their religion. Many of the leaders in New Zealand and Australia are very fine Catholic people. Time for some people to grow up and accept that they are not wanted in this world.
165

Jings Crivens,

02/01/2008 08:59:09
A non story why waste time on it

 

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