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Tycoon calls for cut in Tartan Tax

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Published Date: 26 April 2009
ONE of Scotland's richest men has urged Alex Salmond to rescue the economy by using Holyrood's powers to cut income tax by up to 3p in the pound.
Billionaire Sir Tom Hunter suggested the First Minister should create a tax haven north of the border, which would generate millions of pounds in personal wealth and help drag the Scottish economy out of recession.

Hunter's intervention last night sparked a fierce debate on the use of the so-called Tartan Tax – and whether it should be used for a tax rise or a tax cut. The Scottish Parliament has never used its power to vary income tax, but Hunter said a cut would help small and medium businesses which were the key to recovery. The retailer and philanthropist also claimed Alistair Darling's tax-the-rich Budget would drive entrepreneurs out of the country and lead to more unemployment.

Hunter's supporters agreed a reduction in tax in Scotland would attract new businesses and boost the economy. But critics warned it could prove divisive, depriving public services of around £350m a year and creating confusion. Others argued that a hike in the Tartan Tax would be better than a cut, to pay for front-line public services.

Kenny Farquharson: Time to rediscover old-fashioned thrift

In an interview with Scotland on Sunday, Hunter was asked if he approved of exercising Holyrood's tax-varying powers and having a lower rate in Scotland than the rest of the UK.

Hunter replied: "Lowering it has got to be good." He added: "When he was campaigning to get into Government, Salmond was saying that he wanted Scotland to be a low-tax economy along the lines of Switzerland and cutting Tartan Tax would be a step in the right direction. "If Scotland is to get out of recession, it is pretty obvious to me that the only way to get out of it is to help the people creating business, the people creating wealth."

If Tartan Tax was lowered by 1p, that would result in the average worker having an extra £150 in his annual pay packet. Across a workforce of 2.2 million that would result in an extra £350m being injected into the economy.

Liz Cameron, chief executive of the Scottish Chambers of Commerce, said: "This is well worth considering at this point in time when we need to restore business confidence."

Hunter's call was also welcomed by the Liberal Democrats, who tried to persuade Salmond to introduce a 2p cut earlier this year during the negotiations that led up to the Scottish Budget.

But David Watt, executive director of the Institute of Directors Scotland, said: "I don't think this would actually have a major benefit for Scotland.

"You might argue that it would send out a good message in Scotland, but it would be divisive because there are so many companies that work on both sides of the border."

David Bell, Professor of Economics at Stirling University,

said: "It would stimulate the Scottish economy and it would give Scotland a competitive advantage and shift the balance from the public sector to the private sector. But it is really a question of how the UK would react. The question would always be, would there be a reduction in the grant Scotland receives from the UK Treasury?"

However, there was support last night for a rise in the Tartan Tax. Professor Richard Kerley, an expert in public service funding at Queen Margaret University, said: "Clearly it would take some money out of the economy, but it would raise money to secure some of the areas where they say they want to improve public services."

Salmond's spokesman said: "We certainly had a position in our manifesto that we didn't advocate the use of these plans. We have no plans to invoke the tax."

Hunter, who made £260m when he sold his Sports Division chain of shops, is Scotland's first home-grown billionaire. In his interview he condemned Darling's Budget, describing plans to increase National Insurance by 0.5% from April 2011 as a "tax on jobs". And he was fiercely critical of the Chancellor's new top rate of income tax of 50% for those earning more than £150,000.

"We need tax incentives for enterprise. We shouldn't tax the rich, because it just means that people will leave the country and if these people leave the country we will have increased unemployment."




Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 26 April 2009 12:48 AM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Tom Hunter
 
1

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 00:06:40


Sir Tom Hunter, You must be Joking!

All that Salmond seems content with, is the extra Tax he can get on anything he can think off,

Chocolate Tax, being one of the more absurd ones!



2

,

26/04/2009 00:24:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
3

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 00:43:22


One must get realistic!

Much the chance of Salmond cutting any tax, as would be, seeing the Queen jump out a plane with a parachute on, over Edinburgh!

4

Leon,

Hong KOng 26/04/2009 02:01:17
If we tax the rich they will leave the country!
Hurry along now!
5

Itchy,

26/04/2009 02:48:48
Tax cuts are good.

Scotland needs to learn that tax cuts are sound and that opposition to low taxes is Marxist.
6

W Smith,

Middle East 26/04/2009 03:30:33
If a Scottish Tory had suggested the same thing you can imagine what Nicola Sturgeon and the other nutcase SNP Lefties would have said.

As its our Tom, who gives money to the SNP cause, then suddenly its a good idea.

It is a good idea - about 10 years too late.

BTW
When talking about a "cut in services" what we're really talking about is getting rid of some of the spongers in the Public Sector who wouldn't be missed by the majority of the population as they contribute nothing.

That's because they were recruited to make the unemployment figures look better.

I'm all for a "cut in services".
7

Hamish Longdirk,

NZ 26/04/2009 03:51:26
"But it is really a question of how the UK would react. The question would always be, would there be a reduction in the grant Scotland receives from the UK Treasury?"
What grant? Scotland pays more into the UK than it gets out, also whats it got to do with the UK. The SP has the power to put tax up or down, it's nothing to do with Westminster. Unless it will give Scotland a competitive edge and of course Westminster would NEVER like that.


8

AyeWeCan.blogspot.com,

26/04/2009 05:40:50
SoS get real - a cut of 3p would lose the Scottich Government about £800m per year in revenue. So where will the £800m of cuts come from?. And how could Eck the bleat on about the "viscious" £500 million "cut" impossed by Darling?

And the idea that the UK treaury,andy UK Treasaury, would allow rich English folks to move their tax base to scotland to take advanage of our lowere rate is a fantasy. Pure fantasy - and internal tax have??? Especially when thatare at last trying to clamp down on the offshore one

Tom Huner blows his nose and SoS runs it as a lead story.

But Tax cuts? Even the UK tories in the face of the UKs £175bn deficit and rising all but admits any tax cuts for thr forseeable future an impoosibilty

But here is SoS peddling it a a realistic Scottish only policy choice. Desperate stuff journalistically. "Rio Ferdinand slep with three hookers" woudl; be a more newsworty headline - and he probably did

There will be no Taratn Tax cut - name a single party. MSP or MPO that is even considring it, let alone advovcting it SoS. Indeed look at what Tom Hunter actually said - "It wou be good,,," Of couse it would be in a theoetical bubble, But then examine the consequencse, the reality

SoS - pure drivel, wose tha tabloid drive

Grade 1 mince
9

C. Mantic,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 06:35:32
I came across a joke recently which, on reflection, might actually work:

Rather than throwing good money after bad, by bailing out irresponsible banks, I have a solution to fix the economy of Britain in a trice...

It's a scheme called 'Patriotic Retirement'. Currently there are just under 8-million workers in the UK aged 50+. Pay each the sum of £1million subject to three conditions being met:

1) They leave their jobs - 8 million vacancies fixes the rise in unemployment.

2) They all buy new British made cars - 8 million cars ordered fixes the motor industry.

3) They all either buy a house or pay off their mortgage - 8 million house purchases fixes the housing market.

Done! Economy fixed!
10

mike3,

26/04/2009 07:24:17
Unneeded excess revenue can be reduced much more easily by amending the Barnett formula.
11

,

26/04/2009 08:05:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
12

Walter Ego,

Durness 26/04/2009 08:30:48
A good call from Sir Tom. Perhaps even Connery would be persuaded to return. After all, he's an expert at finding tax havens.
13

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 08:41:53
Probably a good idea from Sir Tom that should be followed up by the Scottish government. I doubt though that the SNP, as a good Socialist party would have the inclination to make the cuts that could save us billions and divert the cash to paying of the debt and investing in our industries. Most of the savings are in non-devolved areas anyway:

Scrap Trident
Scrap the ID card fiasco
Make child benefit means tested
Child benefit for the first 2 kids only
Scrap the child 'endowment'
Scrap paying kids to go to school
Stop paying children to have children
A proper crack down on benefit fraud
Stop spending money on TVs etc etc in prisons
Stop the abuse of the asylum/immigration system
Charge for misuse of the NHS by drunken halfwits
Get rid of all the 'consultants' in government
Stop paying for career politicians in local government
Scrap smoking cessation 'champions'
Scrap 'healthy eating' champions
Scrap 'diversity advisers'
Etc ad nauseum

In short, scrap the nanny state and get back to the Welfare State and NHS being as it was originally intended, a safety net not an excuse to abdicate all responsibility!!

14

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 08:55:27
Increase Scottish Income Tax - Take money out of people's pockets so further deflating the economy.
Decrease Scottish Income Tax - Take money out of the Block Grant so further deflating the economy.
15

Greatscot....,

London 26/04/2009 09:43:47
Sorry but something here doesn't make sense. If there is a reduction in the block grant were Scotland to decrease Income Tax by 3p then there would need to be a comensurate increase in the same block grant if Scotland varied tax upwards by 3p.

The economic activity generated by a reduction in tax would far outstrip any perceived loss of revenue to the government.

Besides which with government spending now at ludicrous levels we need to make a start at getting it down to about 20% of GDP which is perfectly adequate for any modern country.
16

Greatscot....,

London 26/04/2009 09:50:57
I always have to laugh when I hear people say that those who can afford to pay more should pay more tax. These usually turn out to be the people who spend much of their lifes as gyro-monkeys scrounging off those of us who work for a living.

FYI: The top 1% of earners currently pay 23% of all the Income Tax collected. And you want more? Hunter is right. All that will happen is that Scotland will yet again lose its best and brightest entrepreneurs. To succeed Scotland needs to compete with other countries and one of the major factors anyone considers when planning to set up a new busiess and create jobs is levels of personal taxation.

17

arc of insolvency,

26/04/2009 09:55:12
This would mean Alex Salmond would having to deliver something instead of his usual smarm of substance. The pie man doesn't know how to deliver...............
18

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 26/04/2009 09:55:38
Along the lines of Switzerland, central government would run the railways, air traffic control, major trunk roads, issue and regulate the nation's currency and that's about all it would do. Most of the time it would be working away and you'd hardly notice it as most issues are decided locally and regionally. So it's worth considering as an economic model and suits the Swiss.

Scots have a Parliament in Edinburgh but there is no good case of centralising all operations in the capital like the London model.

Scotland needs a government for national reconstruction and some drastic measures rather than merely tuning a system that works OK. It doesn't. For a start, we need full control of revenues and taxation. We need a decisive regulatory body that keeps banking as useful accounting and keeps casino economics seperate.

There would be regional land boards to lease appropriate land to local builders and individuals for new houses, workshops, factories. For the population is concentrated from the previous coal and steam age. Do we want a neo-feudalist nature reserve and shooting estate?

I'd consider running the railways from Perth: full electrification, new lines though the borders, hybrid traction for the far north and west lines. All new infrastructure would be built in Scotland though design tendered internationally.

We need a good Coastguard and building new vessels in Scotland.

There are many committments to the current UK system but this can be negiociated for a better functioning Britain.
19

BIG EYE,

Paisley 26/04/2009 10:00:46
Those who support Labour's tax hike should rememeber that many of those caught in this trap will have put their homes up as security to start their own companies and provide the jobs for others that keep our economy above water. The UK government now want 50% of their income tax plus NI. But If the business flouders and god knows how many businesses have been destroyed by Labour's mess this 50% government partner wanders away untouched leaving the business "owners" with all the debt!

We are going to need many people to take many risks to create the jobs of the future, taxing them stupidly in this way is not going to create them!

Crazy!
20

The Scotchman,

26/04/2009 10:04:52
Tycoon calls for independence
21

Stan Butler,

26/04/2009 10:09:14


Perhaps if Hunter were to volunteer to continue to pay tax at current levels if the 3p reduction was introduced I might be more likely to accept that he is concerned about the public good rather than his own private greed.
22

SlyFifer,

Somewhere South of Fife 26/04/2009 10:20:45
Tom Hunter should perhaps set his sights to a more radical opportunity for Scotland rather than the SNP who sadly do not seem to have the radical policies that are required to drag our country away from the failed polices of the British state.
In too many cases in the past the SNP's reaction to events has been to trot out Westminster style solutions rather than solutions specifically designed for a wee Scotland of only 5 Million people.
Maybe he should look to the SEP as a fresh approach to Scotland' future where there are the policies which he might find more than appealing.
23

W Smith,

Middle East 26/04/2009 11:03:35
"When he was campaignng to get into Government, Salmond was saying..."

I like it.

Looks like our Tom wants results Mr Salmond.

The SNP are more interested in Middle East politics with Nicola Sturgeon saying there was "a strength of feeling" in Scotland for the Palestinian cause.

Oh aye.

Then there is Sandra White's anti-war rallies with the commuunists in the Stop The War Coalition, Mike Weir's continued support for the Dundee Taliban, James McLintock, and Osama Saeed urging muslims not to cooperate with police, etc.

My guess is Tom Hunter didn't sign up for this, neither did the more moderate SNP supporters.

Looks like Tom is on to you Mr Salmond.
24

W Smith,

Middle East 26/04/2009 11:06:38
"Mr Salmond was not kicked out of a unionist party for being a nationalist. He was kicked out of a nationalist party for being an extremist."

W Smith

Discuss.
25

The Strategist,

26/04/2009 11:06:52
According to the BBC....... "Lingerie tycoon Michelle Mone has withdrawn her support for Labour in anger at its economic policies"..

I'll leave the jokes to others!!

26

Itchy,

26/04/2009 11:14:24
#7 "The lowering of the tax by 3p is a worthwhile idea...but right now is definately not the time"

It is always the right time. Low taxes are good, end of story.
27

Itchy,

26/04/2009 11:16:57
#24 your post is Marxist and you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
28

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 26/04/2009 11:20:57
These rich people just never have enough. If he doesn't like the fair tax levels in this country then go and live somewhere else. He won't be missed.
29

Linda,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 11:25:47
Tom Hunter, SoS journalists and most posters above are missing the fact that such measures can only be introduced if Scotland was independent. Under Scotland Act any such cut would result in lowering of money from Westminster as well.
Under independence it would be up to each and every party to put forwards their economic policies to benefit the Scottish nation.
I see from Express headlines that when indpendence referendum question is put in the context of Scotland being “a member of the European Union in its own right”. In total, 42 per cent back that position, compared to 40 per cent against.

yOnMost of
30

bumpkin,

26/04/2009 11:38:56
if they want to save peoples jobs, then they need to cut fuel taxes and national insurance instead of raising them.
31

Sumlogic,

Could not agree more 26/04/2009 11:47:11
No 14.

The more the state intervenes and interferes with folk the more they suffer from learned helplessness and become more and more reliant on the system...looking to government as some sort of pseudo parent or fixer for their own mess.

Just take the area of health...people throw their health away day in and day out and care not one jot (drugs, alcohol, horrendous diets, sloth), looking to the taxpayer and the NHS to prop them back up again when the inevitable health problems arrive!

We apparently have poverty among plenty!

In saying that remembering Thatcher’s era where local schools were resorting to ‘bring and buy’ sales to help fix their leaky roofs and buy books is not an option either!
32

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 11:48:10
# 25 Slyfifer

The trouble is, an independent Scotland would be guaranteed aspiration-crippling Socialism for the foreseeable future. Labour, the SNP, the SSP, Tommy's rump whatever it's called. They all have things in common: the politics of envy, the politics of restriction, the equal sharing of misery. Until we wake up to that, Scotland is going nowhere fast, either in or out of the UK.
33

jkr,

Lochwinnoch Greater Glasgow 26/04/2009 11:48:20
if income tax is reduced in Scotland the UK treasury is not going to increase the block grant to make up the difference. Imagine the outcry in England if it did. It's a daft idea anyway. Income tax cannot be considered in isolation. If Scotland had control of ALL taxation then it would be a different matter. The various taxes could be raised or lowered to meet the countries needs at any given time.
34

Sumlogic,

Agreed 26/04/2009 11:56:33
No 25

Scotland and its people need to get off their backsides and create the nation they want...too many scroungers and dole seekers...too many baby making mothers (absentee fathers)who have no clue how to bring up children decently and have no way to pay for them either!

Just a mess, left to right and front to back...where is the work ethic, drive, enthusiasm and entrepreneurial vision of earlier generations!

Get on any bus in a city and listen to the talk of the general public, especially those 25 and under and cringe at the language, ignorance and general lack of ambition in these folk, sold on a get rich quick, lotto, bingo, take the money and run, valueless lie!

That’s Scotland in 2009
35

nova albion,

26/04/2009 12:01:45
Is Tom Hunter in the real world! Salmond want's every penny he can sqeeze out of people,and westminster.
36

nova albion,

26/04/2009 12:03:48
37. And that is why Scotland is where it is today,and it is not about to change.
37

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 26/04/2009 12:14:33
I used to be an enthusiast for unstayed rigs (as you might see on Friday night) but have returned to a classic plan sloop with square cut mains'l and bowsprit for the all carbon tri. Flying a spin is optional.

The non-metallic braziere like the boat is always on the frontier of design. As is the Kilbarti crab claw which I think we can put on the common cat with an unstayed stick.

You have to take these things SERIOUSLY.
38

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 12:24:19
#39 nova albion

Absolutely. Until we get politicians who recognise that it is the likes of Tom Hunter, Tom Farmer, Michelle Mone who take the risks and create the jobs we all rely on, we're going to be stuck in the dependency state we're in. Sir Tom should be feted and role models for the young, not the objects of envy. He's made a lot of money for himself? Good luck to him, but he also EMPLOYS a lot of folk and give a lot to charity. We could be doing with more like him in Parliament, people who realise that the money they spent doesn't just appear out of thin air, it has to be generated.
39

Sumlogic,

No 41 26/04/2009 12:28:42
The 'fractional reserve banking system' allows money to be created out of thin air.

Unfortunately one of the reasons the world is in the mess its in financially today, although you will not hear it mentioned on television etc
40

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 12:36:51
I don't think this would actually work it's like the VAT cut it disappeared into the ether as all the shops were dropping prices anyway. We need to direct money towards sustaining employment. Better one person has a job than a lot have a wee bit more money, which if they are anything like me, they will be more inclined to save for a rainy day in the current climate. We need to get money circulating that means keeping people in jobs.
41

PointOf View,

Bonny Scotland 26/04/2009 12:37:46
7 IndependentlyInclined
Quite agree Inde, including the remark about Smith.
I also see Numbskull' still out on his weekend pass too.
42

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 12:40:41
#42 Sumlogic

Well, I don't know much about the fractional reserve banking system but I do know what was drilled into me by honest, hard-working Scots parents and grandparents: you don't spend what you don't have. Simple as. As that much maligned figure, Margaret Thatcher, said, the State budget is essentially no different from a household one and should be run accordingly.
43

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 12:44:54
45 Excuse me while I pick my head up from the floor where it has rolled off due to my laughing. It was Thatcher with her property and share owning democracy who encouraged people to live beyond their means. Greed is good, that was her ethos.
44

Sumlogic,

No 45 26/04/2009 12:48:57
I agree, however our shopaholic, consumer society runs on spending, and masses of it, China makes the stuff and we buy it using credit, the government then sells bonds that China buys to keep the whole system running.

They make we buy, even if we don’t need it...if we go into thrift mode, as is happening at the moment the economy shudders and falters.

I agree though, with the ethic, have no debts or credit cards etc and buy what you need up front, saving to do so.
45

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 26/04/2009 12:49:41
Money as we know it IS created out of thin air. It's called fractional reserve banking. Of course you can do something useful with it. The above people have talent for making money out of money and perhaps produce useful product with it. But it not necessarly the case the people making alot of money equates to better goods and services on the ground. You can always sell inferior stuff for inflated prices when you have a MONOPOLY. Competition in energy suppliers? Don't joke. It's a rigged cartel.

Campaigning for monetary reform re energy and malaise will not make you rich. The whole rank of economists, the press and academics (who earn good money from the swindle) are arrayed against you. Only integrity can keep you going.
46

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 12:54:38
#46 Observer

No, for Thatcher, aspiration was good, that was her ethos. I suppose you'd rather the working classes were kept in their place, living in a house provided by the State, not owning the companies they worked for and bought from? Thinking it wasn't for them to go to university to get 'middle class' jobs. Thinking their place was to be the drones, never the boss. Not being allowed the right to decide when they withdrew their labour or not.Never daring to set up their own businesses. Thatcher was despised by the Old Tories because she wanted to free the working classes. She was equally despised by the Labour establishment because she allowed the working class to see them for the patronising hypocrites they are.
47

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 13:04:22
49 Thatcher encouraged the whole debt culture. I'm old enough to remember the social change when people moved from getting their money out the bank on a weekly basis to living on plastic. Thatcher and her heirs have made it absolutely certain that the working class will stay in their place because they are all a pay-check away from poverty, having bought ''aspirational'' things that they couldn't afford, most of the value of said things as plastic as the means they used to pay for them. The origins of this current crisis lie with her, the Tories, and the Reaganomic madness that said greed was good and as Thatcher said there is no such thing as society. Well, people are going to live and learn now.
48

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 13:14:52
# 50 Observer

You're the perfect example of the patrician old Tory and the collectivist Socialist. You were happy when the State decided you had moved up the queue far enough to be given access to a telephone line? Remember that? I sure do. There's not a week goes by that I don't get letters from banks offering me credit. My bank has given me instant access to thousands of pounds of debt. I have the freedom of choice to take them up on their offer but I don't recall anyone from the bank forcing me to. I'm an adult, I'm given the choice to reach good and bad decisions. Just who gave you and the likes of Harold Macmillan and the likes of Tony Benn the right to decide that so many people are too weak or stupid to be given those choices also?
49

PointOf View,

Bonny Scotland 26/04/2009 13:18:48
7 Linda,
Hi Linda interesting post however, personally i still have an issue. Why strive to leave this corrupt UK Union just to enter a corrupt European Union.

It’s a little like jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. Scottish independence must mean just that, complete independence.
50

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 13:21:16
I probably am a combination of old Tory and socialist. I don't think people are clamouring for choice. I think people want things that work, not a huge demand in my opinion. The privatisation and financialisation of our society has let everyone loose in the sweetie shop. Now I haven't been caught out but there are planty of folk who have, and God help them now. I don't think it's unrealistic for things to be regulated, for checks and balances to be put in place. That may make me a combination of Harold McMillan and Tony Benn but if I ruled the world we wouldn't be in this awful mess.
51

Stuart505,

26/04/2009 13:26:04
No.41:
"Until we get politicians who recognise that it is the likes of Tom Hunter, Tom Farmer, Michelle Mone who take the risks and create the jobs we all rely on"

Are you for real? What jobs are you talking about here? Certainly not manufacturing, all that stuff has been outsourced to the poorest contries of the world, working without any kind of employment protection, on wages that wouldn't feed my dog. Fat lot of risk in that! Ask Mone where her bras are made, and would she ever contemplate spending a month, no wait, a week working and living in the same conditions. The lack of proper jobs in the developed countries is absolutely down to the business models of these so-called risk takers and, guess what, they won't come back as long as you and your ilk regurgitate this entrepreneurial p!sh.
The real risk takers were in the financial sector, do you really want to encourage them more? Grow up.
52

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 13:29:33
# 53 Observer

I suspect that if you ruled the world, it would be a benign place but it would look a helluva lot like Moscow in 1972. And we all know what that looked like: the 'vlasti', who knew what was 'best' for the masses, with their access to special shops, schools, health care and reserved traffic lanes, and the masses themselves, queuing for their choice of cabbage or no cabbage. A bit like the Scotland of the future I fear.
53

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 13:36:23
#54 Stuart505

And the jobs you provide are? The money you generate comes from? Don't get me wrong, I produce nothing. I create no employment. But I'm not so naive as to think the cash that keps me in a job comes from nowhere. It certainly doesn't come from the State. Where is the State going to get all the money it will take to set up and sustain these uneconomic and uncompetitive businesses? It's you and those who clearly think it can who need to wake up and grow up.
54

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 13:39:54
55 That's complete rubbish Draco you are ignoring the fact that I believe absolutely in personal liberty. I just think it's the Govts job to nudge us in the right direction. We, by which I mean the society which the Tories don't believe in, have collectively borrowed money which the banks didn't have, and which we can't pay back. That is what has got us here, a giant pyramid scheme which was based upon getting something for nothing. That doesn't cut it in the real world, it doesn't work. I blame the Tories and Labour for letting that Pyramid scheme flourish. It was never about choice, it was always about money. I just want to see the back of that.
55

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 13:45:03
56 You are in law enforcement and I am in housing provision, without us society couldn't function. What we need to do is get the balance right between the private sector and the public sector. And that means not mixing them up. That is the real problem that politicians have. We should compliment each other, not be set at logger-heads.
56

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 13:47:25
#57 Observer

No, it's a government's job to give us the choice to make the mistake. I agree with you, the greed of the last 20 years was shocking (and stupid)and I hope we've ALL learned the lessons, but we needed that lesson to be able to move on to a place halfway between where we were and, unfortunately, where we are.
57

Abel Magwitch,

26/04/2009 13:48:40
Here is a true story which goes back to the 1970s, a time of high marginal tax rates. A friend of mine was asked to appear in court as an expert witness for a fee of 1000 pounds which was a substantial sum at that time. The preparation and the court appearance would have taken 3 days in total. However he also needed 3 days to redecorate some rooms in his house. He therefore sat down and did a comparison of the net (after 60% tax) income he would receive for the court appearance, versus the amount he would have to pay for professional decorators. It turned out that he would save a lot of cash cash by doing the redecorating himself and declining to appear in court.

By decorating his own rooms, my friend deprived the community of his scientific expertise and deprived the professional decorators of work. But can we blame him?
58

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 13:54:03
60 Yes of course we can blame him. Personally I think he should have been arrested and charged with obstructing the ends of justice. You shouldn't look upon your duty as a citizen in terms of financial reward.

59 Well they have given us the choice to make mistakes and a lot of people did. What pees me off is that they are trying to resurrect the body of the economic madness - high house prices and personal indebtedness - so they continue to nudge us in the wrong direction.
59

,

26/04/2009 13:55:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
60

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 14:06:21
#61 Observer

Ah, there you have it. What was, and is, behind the whole mess is the professionalised politician, a creature of which Brown is the most despicable example. Brown KNEW the free market was behaving badly and irresponsibly. Instead of saying 'this will be the result' and letting people, armed with knowledge, naturally curtail the excesses of the markets by their reduced apending and increased saving, he chose to put his own political gain before the welfare of the country. He lied to people that the market wasn't out of control and took away OPTIONS from people. It was a surer way of making money to spend on houses that were going to go up in price forever (aye, right) rather than give them the option to save. All because it made look Brown look like a genius.
61

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 14:22:36
63 Yes Brown comes from the left, we are all very well versed in the descriptions of the trade cycle. What Brown did was, because of that, so much more unforgiveable than if it had been the Tories. They don't really recognise the trade cycle because it is an inherent criticism of capitalism. I am quite aware that I can criticise capitalism until the cows come home, people like it, and therfore it is how we live economically. But for someone well versed in the unstable nature of free markets to take the brakes off and give it a push almost defies belief. He really has such a lot to be blamed for.
62

Stuart505,

26/04/2009 14:34:40
63, My apologies for a somewhat intemperate post at 56, written in a rush of irritation at yet more threats, from people who have more wealth than 98% of the world's population, to take themselves elsewhere at the mention of an increased contribution to the society that allowed them to become what they are today. Anyway, I am sorry for having a go.
Having said that, I agree with every word of your post @ 63, and of course Observer's @ 64.
63

Marga,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 14:40:11
Could it not be argued that the UK government are rehearsing in Scotland (again) what may happen to the whole UK soon - imposing an IMF-type settlement. Forcing political change via an economic stranglehold. The best progressive policies, for the elderly, the sick and the poor will be the first to go. So much for devolved power.

If Labour goes down they're making sure that before they go, they take Scottish progressive policies with them.
64

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 26/04/2009 14:50:25
-- The money you generate comes from?

It comes from nothing, created by private banks who have this monopoly. A regional bank servicing regional industries is beneficial under some sort of regulation.

Money is not generated (by a physical process) but created these days in a computer model.
65

Shug,

26/04/2009 14:53:47
Personally I would rather we adopted a Scandanavian model of high taxes but excellent public services. At the end of the day you get what you pay for. If we want good schools, hospitals etc we need to pay for it. Tax should rise for everyone with tax breaks for low earners, the elderly. We need to know where we stand. In hand with this I would nationalise essential services, water, trains, electricity, gas, oil etc. No doubt dire economically in the short term (at least if you believe the Stock Market) but long term it would be a sound and safe way to live, less growth but more stability.
66

Sumlogic,

Always the same tune 26/04/2009 15:02:50
Isn’t it 'rich' (pun intended) that the HUGE debts taken on by the government to save the banks were to save the savings of 2% of the UK. The £50k savings guarantee covered 98% of the population, with the remaining 2% controlling around half of the wealth, (may be a bit off on the last point).

My point is this, its this same 2% percent that always moan about not having enough and threaten to move away if taxes rise, even though 'they' are rising in part due to the need to save 'THEIR' wealth in the debt ridden banks!

I wonder if it would have been cheaper to let them foot the bill directly by losing their savings should the odd bank have failed and using the money sunk into the banks to save the savings of the majority!



67

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 26/04/2009 15:15:54
A bank doesn't operate like a business where you'd see that the costs of production exceed income of sales. Then it is broke but assets have acrued to the local community that can be redeployed after the bankrupsy sale.

Banks create money our of nothing (apart from the administrative costs) and if you leave it to private bankers, then they will run the State. Wars are always profitable. The UK has always been in debt.
68

PointOf View,

Bonny Scotland 26/04/2009 17:57:50
Observer!!
Now i often agree with some of your comments but today you've blow me away!!

"55 That's complete rubbish Draco you are ignoring the fact that I believe absolutely in personal liberty. I just think it's the Govts job to nudge us in the right direction".

"60 Yes of course we can blame him. Personally I think he should have been arrested and charged with obstructing the ends of justice. You shouldn't look upon your duty as a citizen in terms of financial reward."

I'm a little confused Observer, just who's "absolutely in personal liberty" are you talking about here. It's the Govts job to nudge us in the right direction, What like Iraq, funding bankrupt banks from the electorate’s purse, lies and corruption of a massive scale like never seen before.
Mixed massages and double standards come to mind here. Hmm, me thinks you’re still a Tory at heart.
69

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 19:49:17
Here is an opportunity for Scotland to ditch it's very unproductive and bigoted socialist past and start afresh with an entrepreneurial base.

Here is hoping that Salmond just does it and cuts back Government waste in favour of the good and financial freedom of the nation.
70

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 26/04/2009 21:01:28
Congratulations Sir Tom on the first piece of radical economic thinking since the SNP took "power". And I thought Salmond was meant to be an "economist"? Question: what job did Salmond fulfil for the RBS (ruined by spivs and speculators as well, Alex?)? Some say "oil economist". Others say "wages clerk". Who is closer to the truth?
71

Richard Lionheart,

27/04/2009 00:09:15
#28 Does seem strange as Gordon Brown has ended boom!
72

Richard Lionheart,

27/04/2009 00:14:17
#33 the only important jobs which must be saved are those of A D & G B. G B Will do everything possible to save them.
73

Julian.,

edinburgh 27/04/2009 03:30:09
Wasn't that referendum we all voted in 10 years ago passed to give the government 2p leaway on income tax?
74

USJacobitexile,

Minnesota, USA 27/04/2009 19:07:27
Our history in USA is that every time federal top marginal income tax rates have been reduced by a few percentage points, resultant economic growth stimulated by tax cuts has yielded a net INCREASE in federal income tax revenues. Every time, no exceptions, starting with innovative cuts daringly initiated back in the early 1960's by Pres Jack Kennedy, a Democrat (Kennedy argued against his critics that these much ridiculed tax cuts would increase revenues, but Kennedy was proved right). Ironically, when our new Democrat president was asked about cutting rather than raising taxes on upper-bracket earners since in the past such cuts have always increased revenue, Pres Obama gave an ideological answer, saying that he would still go forward with raising income tax rates on those earning more than $250K USD, even if economic models showed that cutting taxes on this group would increase income tax revenue (!). He said it was an issue of "fairness" (e.g., ideology, not what policy would generate the most overall revenue). Amazing. Especially considering that in USA, as of the 2006, the top 10% of earners already pay 73% of all federal income taxes collected. At the bottom half of the earning scale, almost half of tax-filers in USA (48%)end up owing no income tax at all, due to deductions, exemptions, allowances and credits of various kinds. Thus about half of all Americans who have income are personally unaffected by income taxation, effectively exempt; so they have no vested interest in tax cuts, and overwhelmingly favour more and more government spending programs, especially entitlement programs, aka "income redistribution" schemes. Apparently, in Pres Obama's mind, the 10% of US taxpayers who pay in 73% of all income taxes collected are getting too much of a free ride, and not paying their fair share. "Fairness" is ideologically defined. Seemingly, "fairness" is Peter being robbed to pay Paul, because, numerically, the "Paul" component of the elecotrate is outvote
75

USJacobitexile,

Minnesota USA 27/04/2009 19:13:21
In reply to Pres Obama's remarks about "fairness", one US commentator retorted that, "Socialism works until you run out of other people's money."

 

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