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Brown: Banking crisis has proved case for the Union

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Published Date: 15 October 2008
GORDON Brown last night attacked Scottish nationalism by saying that the banking crisis had proven the case for the Union.
The Prime Minister said the underlying message of the rescue package announced this week for banks, including the Scottish giants Royal Bank of Scotland and HBOS, was that Britain was stronger together and weaker apart.

"We have been prepared to step in to make available £37 billion of capital for RBS, and for HBOS and to Lloyds TSB," he said.

"And that is the strength of the Union. It is the Union that makes these things possible, that we are prepared to share the risks as well as the opportunities and when things are difficult we are in a position to support each other – stronger together, weaker apart."

He praised the tradition of Scottish and British banking, adding: "I believe we can rebuild these banks. I believe they will once again become strong institutions."

The Prime Minister said Scottish banks benefited from trading in the Union.

He added: "Let's be clear. The Scottish banking system not only serves Scotland but 80 per cent of its business was with the rest of the United Kingdom. So the Scottish banks were serving English, Welsh as well as Scottish customers.

"That's really the integrated financial market that we have at the moment. We're sharing the risks together and when things go wrong we work together to sort things out. We share the opportunities as well.

"That is indeed the strength of the Union. We are stronger together and weaker apart."

Asked if the bail-out undermined the argument for independence in Scotland, he said: "This is not the time for party political points.

"The important thing is that we were able to act decisively with £37 billion. That would not have been possible with a Scottish administration.

"We've seen the problems in Iceland, we've seen the problems in Ireland.

"We were able to put the whole strength of the United Kingdom's resources behind these two banks and I think it's important because I value the Scottish banking tradition. I think everybody does."

He praised the tradition of Scottish and British banking, adding: "I believe we can rebuild these banks. I believe they will once again become strong institutions."

Meanwhile, First Minister Alex Salmond unveiled a six-point plan last night designed to help Scots avoid the worst effects of looming recession.

A special meeting of the Scottish Government's cabinet focused purely on the economy agreed a series of measures ministers hope to roll out over the next few months. They were:

• Looking at capital projects that can be brought forward from the later years of the parliament and introduced quickly, to stimulate construction and the housing industry.

• Maximising the effect of the Homecoming series of events for next year, acknowledging the importance of tourism as a driver for the Scottish economy and using that to help other sectors.

• Finding ways of improving advice to business and streamlining the planning process.

• Boosting energy efficiency, particularly in vulnerable households.

• Rolling out two pilot projects around the country to help the elderly claim maximum benefits.

• Looking for additional measures to tackle fuel poverty.

Fuller details of the proposals will be announced in the next few days and weeks, with cabinet ministers expected to take advantage of the SNP conference this week to explain some of them.

A spokesman for Mr Salmond said: "The message from cabinet was that the whole economy is going to be impacted by these economic difficulties."

And he added that the six-point plan was designed to "mitigate the impact of the downturn on the real economy".

Labour welcomed the Scottish Government's decision to tackle these issues but said action was more important than talk.

Scottish Labour leader Iain Gray said: "We welcome the fact that the First Minister and SNP have finally turned their attention to stimulating the economy.

"We need to see the detail of Alex Salmond's six-point plan and examine it properly. What is important is this is not all talk and no action."


From zero to superhero in matter of days

IT was a sycophantic question that was more likely to be posed to the regime in Beijing than Britain, but Gordon Brown was quizzed over what it felt like to be a superhero.

He was branded "Flash Gordon" at a press conference with foreign journalists after international leaders including George Bush copied his much-hailed rescue plan.

Although it has taken the near-collapse of capitalism to achieve it, experts believe Mr Brown has bought himself a 5-6 per cent credit-crunch dividend with his bail-out brainchild.

The Prime Minister has been branded a saviour of the global economy after the United States sidelined its original policy to adopt the UK's idea of buying stakes in their ailing banks and EU countries also fell into line with the British way.

Today, Mr Brown will head to Brussels for a European Council meeting with other leaders, where he will try to nail down a co-ordinated attack against financial instability. Plans are also under way for a wider economic summit in the UK in the coming weeks, trailed as a "Bretton Woods- style meeting" – a reference to the conference at the end of the Second World War, which set up a new international monetary system.

Mr Brown's stock rose at a press conference in London with foreign journalists yesterday, during which he was asked taxing questions such as whether he considered himself to be a superhero or Flash Gordon. Mr Brown replied that he was: "Just Gordon, I can assure you."

A source close to the Prime Minister said: "He is embarrassed. Gordon does not take compliments easily."

Mr Brown tried to deflect the praise yesterday by saying: "Politics, I have found, is about ups and downs."

His destiny appeared gloomy just weeks ago, after junior MPs started to openly call for a leadership contest. Since then, there has been a "bounce" but there are still fears in the government that the real impact of the credit crisis has yet to transpire.

Job losses and spending cuts are expected and the Conservatives are basing their fightback strategy on highlighting Mr Brown's inability to avert a recession.

But a Eurostar journey away, Mr Brown was being praised by the president of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, who has hailed the financial deal being across the world as "the Brown plan". And in the US, Mr Bush announced yesterday that his administration would buy a $250 billion (£140 billion) stake in leading US banks.

"These measures are not intended to take over the free market, but to preserve it," the president said to allay fears that the captain of capitalism was turning into a statist.

The latest winner of the Nobel Prize for economics, Paul Krugman, has praised Mr Brown as the potential saviour of the world's financial system.

In an article entitled Gordon Does Good, the Princeton scholar said Mr Brown and Alistair Darling had "defined the character of the worldwide rescue effort, with other wealthy nations playing catch up".

Nigel Griffiths, the Edinburgh MP who has been campaigning in Glenrothes, said the reaction to Mr Brown had changed remarkably. "If you had asked me ten days ago how it (the by-election] would go, I would have said we had narrowed the gap but the SNP were still ahead. Now, I'm thinking we could win Glenrothes."

GERRI PEEV


Bush and Paulson copy British 'path to prosperity'

GEORGE BUSH yesterday announced a $250 billion (£142 billion) plan to buy stocks in banks in an attempt to return the nation's economy to the "path of growth and prosperity".

In an echo of Gordon Brown's bank bail-out, the US president said the rescue plan was "an essential short-term measure".

Mr Bush also issued a temporary guarantee of "most new debt issued by insured banks" and expanded government insurance to cover most small business accounts.

The United States was taking "unprecedented and aggressive steps" to tackle the financial crisis, and international economic leaders had its "full support", Mr Bush said.

The president added that the decision of European leaders to purchase equity in major banks and provide temporary government guarantees for bank loans were "wise and timely actions."

He said the injection of American capital using money from the $700 billion (£398 billion) rescue plan, seen by many as a Wall Street bail-out, "will help struggling banks fill the hole created by losses during the financial crisis, so they can resume lending and help spur job creation and economic growth".

Mr Bush added: "This is an essential short-term measure to ensure the viability of America's banking system.

"And the programme is carefully designed to encourage banks to buy these shares back from the government when the markets stabilise and they can raise capital from private investors."

Mr Bush's announcement came after the Dow Jones industrial average of blue-chip firms gained more than 11 per cent – its biggest one-day gain since 1933 – in a huge rally yesterday.

Traders reacted with relief to efforts by the US and Europe to inject capital into banks and get lending flowing again.

In the US, Hank Paulson, the Treasury secretary, said his country was buying equity stakes in a "wide variety of banks".

"The government owning a stake in any private US company is objectionable to most Americans, me included," he said.

"Yet the alternative of leaving businesses and consumers without access to financing is totally unacceptable."

He said the lack of confidence in the financial system "must be conquered because it poses an enormous threat to our economy".

"Today's actions are not what we ever wanted to do – but are what we must do to restore confidence to our financial system."

In addition, the Federal Reserve, the US central bank, said it would begin buying short-term debt to break the credit clog on 27 October.

Ben Bernanke, the Fed's chairman, welcomed all the new steps but added that policymakers would continue to take actions as needed to battle the crisis.

"Our strategy will continue to evolve and be refined as we adapt to new developments and the inevitable setbacks," he said.

"But we will not stand down until we have achieved our goals of repairing and reforming our financial system and thereby restoring prosperity to our economy."

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1

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

15/10/2008 00:01:23
Told you they'd do this.
2

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 15/10/2008 00:03:32
Gordon Brown, Scotlands embarrasment and a prime exammple as to why one should vote SNP
3

,

15/10/2008 00:04:44
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4

,

15/10/2008 00:10:03
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5

ThomasP,

15/10/2008 00:13:07
"GORDON Brown last night attacked Scottish nationalism by saying that the banking crisis had proven the case for the Union."

Perhaps Gordon Brown should explain why Scotland was left exposed to the credit crunch in the first place. Due to poor regulation banks were able to take bigger gambles and they lost!! Considering since Scotland is in the Union AND THEN the rubissh hits the fan I doubt it really is a convincing case why Scotland should remain in the Union when the Union is to blame for the current mess.
6

,

15/10/2008 00:14:02
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7

Nevsky,

Moscow 15/10/2008 00:19:44
Personally i am completely aghast that not one Scottish journalist has even attempted to print a balanced view about this man's involvement in the whole afair and the true cost to the economy.

I think i an about to give up on the Scottish press and turn to the English papers for a more balanced and frankly a higher standars of journalism.

Seems that it is not only the Scottish Banks that are losing their reputation!

Personally i believe the people can see through the utter c**p and Glenrothes will show it first!
8

slap-dash,

15/10/2008 00:25:35
Why did the "Hootsman" put a big advert for "Suicide Prevention week" next tae the photie of Blunder Broon ?
9

,

15/10/2008 00:26:27
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10

,

15/10/2008 00:28:53
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11

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 00:29:39
#1 INDEED YOU DID! (yes I am shouting)

You said this from the very beginning. If I were wearing a hat I'd take it off to you. In fact, you are the modern Nostradamus.
12

Boy Wonder,

15/10/2008 00:29:49
Hands up who didn't see this coming!!!
13

Richardinho,

15/10/2008 00:32:30
So basically Gordon's saying that capitalism doesn't work if it needs a massive state to bail it out periodically.
14

gothenburg glory,

aberdeen 15/10/2008 00:35:15
You nats really take the biscuit.
I always thought you lived in an economic fantasy world (remember your penny for Scotland) and your comments tonight prove it.
Face facts. Irish,icelandic banks and norwegian banks have all suffered in the last few weeks.
Scottish banks have been bailed out by the UK exchequer - (it hurts doesn't it my separatist friends) unlike Iceland we havent had to go cap in hand to Putin's Russia. As for Ireland have a look at the budget your favourite celtic tiger had to introduce today. Oh and Norway's had to borrow cash from the international financial authorities too - oil fund or no oil fund.

I know why you're all as mad as hell because deep in your hearts you realise that your cause of winning an independence referendum bit the dust on Monday.
For all of your First Minister's bluster and empty talk of an independent scotland bailing out RBS and HBOS - its all so much fantasy...and the vast majority of Scots know that - so roll on the referendum - bring it on in fact!

15

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 15/10/2008 00:38:05
"GORDON Brown last night attacked Scottish nationalism by saying that the banking crisis had proven the case for the Union."

It does nothing of the sort. Firstly, what Brown has done, any British government would have done, and any national government with any sense - he bailed out the banks. There was no other choice except meltdown. The only reason the Americans are shamefacedly expressing their admiration for his plan are the facts that a lame duck Republican President and administration are facing an election, their candidate is looking increasingly shaky, they have a deep-rooted distaste for anything that smacks of socialism, and have been making a God-awful, acrimonious mess of their own rescue plan.

Secondly, although the global crisis has its roots in the American sub-prime market, Brown contributed in major part the British - and Scottish - shambles by his starry-eyed admiration for Wall Street and his failure to regulate the growing excesses of the finance industry and the banks. Not for nothing is he Thatcher's number one fan - after all, this is the woman who set the whole dirty snowball rolling and growing by deregulating the market and the banks.

Thirdly, no one can say how an independent Scotland would have been placed in this crisis had they achieved statehood at the time of devolution, or even earlier. We can only look to Norway for indicators as to how we might have been able to handle it.

Lastly, Brown and his henchmen, Gray and Murphy, betray their contempt for the country of their birth every time they open their mouths - a contempt that rejects utterly the proposition the Scots men and women have the ability to run their own affairs. That contempt lost them power in Scotland in 2007, and it will be their undoing.

When contemplating Brown's temporary celebrity in foreign countries, let us remember that Thatcher and Blair enjoyed a similar celebrity before their downfalls.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nZJuIO6KhMY
http://www.yo
16

,

15/10/2008 00:57:09
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17

Richardinho,

15/10/2008 01:02:41
#16
"Scottish banks have been bailed out by the UK exchequer - (it hurts doesn't it my separatist friends) unlike Iceland we havent had to go cap in hand to Putin's Russia."

Well by your logic we've had to go cap and hand to England. At least Putin isn't asking Iceland to give up it's sovereignty.
18

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 01:05:55
This is all a bit heavy for this time of night - far more entertaining would be to offer your support on this thread from yesterday's EEN. We have a live upstart.

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Notorious-yobs39-reign-of-terror.4588214.jp#3336062
19

Bring it Off,

UK 15/10/2008 01:15:30
"I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the recovery."
Gordon Brown's 1997 Budget Statement

"Under this Government, Britain will not return to the boom and bust of the past."
Pre-Budget Report, 9th November 1999

"Britain does not want a return to boom and bust."
Budget Statement, 21 March 2000

"So our approach is to reject the old vicious circle of the...the old boom and bust."
Pre-Budget Report, 8 November 2000

"Mr Deputy Speaker we will not return to boom and bust."
Budget Statement, 7 March 2001

"As I have said before Mr Deputy Speaker: No return to boom and bust."
Budget Statement, 22 March 2006

"And we will never return to the old boom and bust."
Budget Statement, 21 March 2007

Is this the SAMR GORDON BROWN
20

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 01:19:30
#25 USA bonds? Do you have learning difficulties?
21

Bring it Off,

UK 15/10/2008 01:22:20
#29 completey agree the worst investment you could be holding the US$ will collapse the Chinese are going to buy Gold not US treasuries as they know they are going to be worthless in 30 years doh!
22

Bring it Off,

UK 15/10/2008 01:22:49
Here is Gordons offer :

http://www.order-order.com/2008/10/gordon-come-campaign-with-me-in.html
23

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 15/10/2008 01:24:39
26
I agree, cringeworthy, however they have mostly learned from the Scotland branch of Nulabor who never miss a chance to put the boot into Scotland. How must that look to anyone from different Nationalities, cringe, cringe, cringe
24

,

15/10/2008 01:25:32
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25

Nevsky,

Moscow 15/10/2008 01:27:27
23 Bring it On#

'Thanks to Gordon for putting in place the Norway model'..pity he didn't do it 10 years ago and pity Scotlan did not do it 30 years ago!
26

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 01:35:51
"Google UK" Spot the difference there champ? Those guys are smart in a way we can't comprehend, that's why they are PERSONALLY worth more than 5 BILLION dollars EACH. They don't have learning difficulties and have cunningly limited their exposure to market fluctuations. You? You're simply a tool with a big mouth.
27

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 01:38:18
Taking a bit of research there champ?
28

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 01:42:23
#38 Couldn't find anything then?
29

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 01:45:18
I didn't mention politics - simply the fact that US bonds have NEVER been less reliable. Where did your Alex Salmond rant fit into that? Does he own a controlling interest in Google UK? No. Didn't think so. Tool.
30

,

15/10/2008 01:47:23
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31

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 01:48:19
Oooooh - desperate research on Google going on here I'm guessing...
32

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 01:49:13
Or perhaps the last 100 yeras of US bonds performance? I want a graph. Nothing else will suffice.
33

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 01:51:38
#38 HAH! You are a blowhard - nothing more. Stick to your political trolling.
34

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 02:00:26
#45 adjusting the inflation would certainly offer a more comfortable seat for Richard1.
35

Edward,

15/10/2008 02:02:54
I couldnt believe what I was seeing, shown on Reporting Scotland at Lunchtime, then in the evening and then on Newsnight Scotland, with a apparent gleeful Gordon Brewer!
Gordon Brown attacking the idea of an Independent Scotland, stating that an Independent Scotland could not of afforded to put in the £ 37 billion that the UK government had (Actually they havent done so , so far)
He was arrogant about it.

This was a strange 'exclusive' interview with what appeared to be loaded questions, which were prepared in order to set of a course of anti Independence statements by Brown.
The timing is also curious, and would back up what Ive been advocating since the Scottish bank share crash of last week, that this has been wholly orchestrated by Labour, that is using the financial crisis in world markets as a vehicle to manipulate the markets in such a way as to cause shares specifically in the Scottish banks to fall. Then ride to the rescue, then come out and state that Scotland would be worse off if Independent.
The theme is carried accross, when Yvette Cooper, wife of Ed Balls (the person who breifed Robert Peston). Was being interviewed earlier on the Network version of Newsnight, when commenting on the Banking crisis in general, would ONLY refer to RBS and HBOS as being the banks responsible for issuing mortgages recklessly at stupid percentages of salary etc. Why did she not mention other banks or building societies, why name RBS and HBOS specifically?
36

You can stick your independence up your a***!!,

15/10/2008 02:03:37
I have to say that it is just wonderful seeing the Nats squirm right now.

Oil heading to $50 a barrel.

Their Arc of Prosperity now an Arc of Bankruptcy.

Could Fat Al have found the billions to rescue Scottish banks?

In his dreams perhaps?
37

You can stick your independence up your a***!!,

15/10/2008 02:06:33
What Alex has stuck up his erchie because he is 5 h i t t i n g himself?

——————/´ ¯/
—————--/—-/
—————-/—-/
———--/´¯/'--'/´¯`•_
———-/'/--/—-/—--/¨¯\
——--('(———- ¯~/'--')
———\————-'—--/
———-'\'————_-•´
————\———--(

Squeaky bum time for the Natz!!
38

somerferg,

perth 15/10/2008 02:09:48

#50 - Oh another intelligent, well thought out comment I see from a pro-onionist. Look the day when I see all the other colonies begging to come back to mother engerland to save them from the global financial crisis I might agree with you. As that seems as likely as hell freezing over I will continue to support the only party that looks after Scotland's interests not the lickspittles you support.
39

Nevsky,

Moscow 15/10/2008 02:10:28
50 You#

$50 a barrel better than £0 a barrel. You will notice that Norway has cut it's output to iincrease revenue no doubt?

Arc of Insolvenvy? Ireland secured by Europe, Iceland with less debt than the UK per head and Norway doing just great.

Billions to save banks..sure Ireland, Norway and Denmark did it without spendin one penny while monkeys like you will pay for it for 10 years..

Complete dim-witted and ill-informed laughing stock!
40

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 02:12:54
#51 That link clearly shows the United Kingdom's exposure to US bonds, as opposed to Google UK. The Google guys are renowned for their genius and financial acumen, whereas Gordon Brown has proven himself to be inept. This irelevance merely enhances your reputation as an utter, utter tool.
41

Edward,

15/10/2008 02:13:08
The Brown big con!
Labour party machine in full swing, with its usual suspects
I hope there is an investigation a some point, which will result in the arrest of Gordon Brown, Ed Balls and Alistair Darling as well as suspected others in the Labour party in London, for the market manipulation of HBOS and RBS shares in order for political gain.
Im never usually wrong about these things
42

You can stick your independence up your a***!!,

15/10/2008 02:14:08
#55 Love that last line - a description of the Dear Leader and the Natz?
43

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 02:16:24
#58 not going to defend your fellow troll who's lost his way?
44

Nevsky,

Moscow 15/10/2008 02:16:35
53 Bring them on#

'the crowds are cheering Brown again'

You mean those faced with:

highest inflation in 15 years
recession
crash in housing market
scotland losing two institutions (lots in Fife)
highest national debt ever
highest ration of national debt to GDP ever
unemployment rising the highest levels in 15 years
slashed public spending
7 pence tax increase next year
foreign borrowing at an all-time high
Brown the 10 year chancellor fat cat
all his friends in the city millionaires

Cheering in the streets alright..what a bone-head you are!

45

You can stick your independence up your a***!!,

15/10/2008 02:17:36
#55

Ireland - giving a guarantee that's completely worthless and leaves them a hostage to fortune.

Iceland - two thirds of its stock exchange wiped out in a day.

Norway - running to the IMF and Moscow seeking funds because theirs are tied up.

That's some Arc of Prosperity!!
46

Edward,

15/10/2008 02:20:04
#53
Your deluding yourself big time
I wouldnt cheer so soon
No ones cheering except for Labour hacks
it was no overnight solution
Brown is no leader
as was pointed out in last nights Newsnight bothBrown and Darling are not capable of dreaming up the resolution on their own, they just dont have the brains
But I tell you what, they will be caught out on their deceipt of the Scottish nation.
47

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 02:21:13
#56 First, "Exposed" is standard investment terminology and stands in this case - UK holds US bonds and is therefore "exposed" to any risk that entails.

Second, what? provide a link to any comment I have made on Norway...ever.

You continue to dig yourself deeper, tool, and the caps just make you seem desparate and manic.

Tool.

48

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 02:24:10
WTF - I meant #61 - yes, you Richard1
49

Edward,

15/10/2008 02:25:30
There was also something telling dring Browns stag managed 'exclusive' interview.
When asked if the take over by Lloyds TSB of HBOS would go through, he stated that the government were the majority shareholder in HBOS and that he would ensure that it did go through!
Whats disturbing is that he is determined thatHBOS be taken over and not rescued. He also seems determined that the control of the Bank be switched to London, with the potential of 40,000 job losses in Sctland!
He has not once (as a majority shareholder remember) stated that he would prefer having the combined group headquartered in Edinburgh
50

Nevsky,

Moscow 15/10/2008 02:26:43
62 a**e

Ireland have not spen one penny and their entire banking systen has been secured by Europe including a guarantee that not one bank will be lost!

Iceland..have a loan an backing now so back on track and will outstrip the Uk soon..AGAIN! Also having listened to the average Icelanders they are feeling quite chirpy and will get on with it!

Norway is a fully capitatalised society and has no need to seek funds from anyone and it's banking sector it totally secure and sound.

Denmark: guarantee without the taxpayer spending one penny is eough!

Scotland: haha under clowns like you willing to accept anything has losy it's entire banking sector and is the only country in Europe without a bank and is also part of the worst perfornming economy apart from Iceland and the USA and all becuase of Scottish 'bend over' imbeciles like you' hahahahahahah..enjoy!
51

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 02:28:20
possibly because he stood by and allowed unchecked panic and short-selling to make it inevitable in the first place. Let's face it, he has no career on the speech circuit so directorship of a bank is his best best once we turf him out.
52

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 02:29:44
#68 Can't you read? I mean... WHAT?!

Tool.
53

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 02:33:09
Nevsky - are you Russian?
54

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 02:35:02
You should think about taking your cap-lock off...and reality.

Tool.
55

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 02:37:05
#72 I could only appropriately get "one" if you'd stated "an eduction is..." As you stated it as a concept rather than a noun, "one" is incorrect.

Tool.
56

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 02:38:00
education, of course. D'OH!
57

An Beal Bacht,

15/10/2008 02:38:05
I think Scots are not so myopic that they can't see that Broon is rejuvenated by this crisis. Indeed, Labour posters are positively exuberant. It demonstrates convincingly that Labour are a party that enjoys seeing Scotland in trouble. Trouble that this party created (by adopting and endorsing Thatcherite policies) and then denying Scotland the power to intervene in its own defense through limiting the powers and resources available to our parliament.

We'll see how this plays in Glenrothes.
58

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 02:39:15
Anyone else notice his delusional avoidance of the subject of our discussion?
59

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 02:40:42
They're out - that's exactly how it'll play.
60

An Beal Bacht,

15/10/2008 02:42:37
79 - Aye.
61

Nevsky,

Moscow 15/10/2008 02:45:58
73 Incan#

Nyet, a Scot in Russia!
62

Robbie 2,

NZ 15/10/2008 02:49:26
16 gothenburg glory,
“You nats really take the biscuit.
Face facts. Irish, Icelandic banks and Norwegian banks have all suffered in the last few weeks.”
Hello Gothenburg! What about banks in Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Switzerland, Denmark, Austria, Belgium, Sweden and Finland, New Zealand all considered small nations - how are their banks fairing? Are they borrowing like Gordon Brown - I really don’t know (as I’m so far away and isolated in a small independent, nuclear-free, nation, engaged in no wars).

Big is not always good: Of the ten countries with populations over 100 million, only the United
States and Japan can be considered prosperous; compare that with the far greater number of small prosperous nations.
At present the two small NZ banks appear to be doing OK
‘New Zealand-owned banks shrug off global credit crunch’
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10499515

I suppose Unionists will be wishing them well.
63

Forward not Back,

15/10/2008 02:50:23
Re debt as % of GDP figures - wait till the UK has to count PFI figures into things, as it will do next year.
64

Forward not Back,

15/10/2008 02:51:42
I find it sad, as a Unionist, that the best argument put forward for the Union is an economic collapse. Extending that argument would mean that we need a one world government.
65

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 02:56:12
We should really all sit tight and wait to see what Gorgie_Tony/Jenny MacArthur has to say on the matter. One wild outburst today just didn't really cut it for me.
66

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 02:58:42
A policewoman giving Gordon Brown "a taste of the back of her hand" sounds appealing...
67

An Beal Bacht,

15/10/2008 02:58:47
84 - Yes indeed.
68

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 03:00:07
#87 "yes indeed" - coincidence? Or David Coverdale?
69

An Beal Bacht,

15/10/2008 03:00:41
86 - Gie him a face like a skelpit urse.
70

An Beal Bacht,

15/10/2008 03:01:47
89 - It is a sad argument.
71

Incandescent,

15/10/2008 03:01:56
#89 If G-Tone had his way it'd be a baseball bat and mustard gas, which sounds about right.
72

An Beal Bacht,

15/10/2008 03:06:09
91 - I like your commitment to doing the job properly. A true journeyman.
73

jimbob82,

Calgary 15/10/2008 03:09:00
Gordon Brown has unfortunately shown his warts. The saviour of the economy, I think not. Britain is in for a deep recession, Brown's issuing of billions to support banks will and is devaluing the pound. Of course Britains economy is larger than Scotland, but the extremes of inflated housing and wastefulness is all in the South of England, and that is who Brown is the lapdog for. He should feel absolute shame for his comments and the reality is that he is again preaching the politics of fear and control. He is not fit.
74

An Beal Bacht,

15/10/2008 03:10:33
93 - It will end in tears.
75

Bring it Off,

UK 15/10/2008 03:19:04
THIS FROM DR MARC FABER WHO I CAN TELL YOU IS NEVER WRONG ABOUT THE MARKETS HE HAS PREDICTED EVERYTHING SO FAR CORRECTLY HE SPEAKS CLEARY AND WITHOUT INFLUENCE FROM OUTSIDE INTERESTS AS HE IS VERY WEALTHY.

Personally I think that Mr Gordon Brown is totally unacceptable as a politician and also as a business leader and as essentially a Treasury Secretary," Faber said. "And he contributed meaningfully to the current crisis, as did Mr Bernanke and as did Mr Greenspan by turning their eyes away from the development of the CDS market from the CDO market and not supervising financial institutions sufficiently and printing money and leading to this huge debt growth, in particular in Britain in the household sector. So that these clowns are now supposed to bail us out is a total joke.

"I think what they should have done is having a conference already ten years ago and discuss why is it that credit growth is so strong and that we have these asset bubbles that develop in various markets at different times? And at that time, they should have tightened monetary policies and not only targeted core inflation, but also targeted debt growth and money supply growth."

SO YOU CAN FOOL SOME OF THE PEOPLE BUT IT WILL UNRAVEL VERY SHORTLY AND THEN OH OH THE WHOLE COUNTRY WILL COME DOWN - TODAYS UNEMPLOYMENT FIGURES ARE JUST THE TIP OF A HUGE ICEBERG ABOUT TO CRASH INTO UK PLC
76

Bring it Off,

UK 15/10/2008 03:25:08
HE ALSO SAYS:

In the interview, Faber reminded us that when the market crashed in 1929 ahead of the Depression between November 1929 and the Summer of 1930 the market rallied 50% before collapsing again by 85% and before having the greatest depression ever.

"So we don't know for sure," he said, "but I would say I'm very sceptical that the governments, especially Gordon Brown who talks about stability and early warning systems, that he has the ability to actually bail out the system.

"Since he caused most of the problems to start with, and there was an early warning system always in place, namely the early warning system is that when you have bubbles in housing and in equities and in commodities, that something is very clearly wrong."

Some of those bubbles are collapsing, but the bailout packages that have been announced have given some security to markets. In Britain, the government is buying large holdings in some teetering banks, even a majority holding in the Bank of Scotland which is nationalisation, because it will have a controlling interest.

"Normally, governments are not very good at running banks or at running any businesses, especially not the British government, as we know," Faber said. "We just have to look at public transportation. So I'm very sceptical that it will work very well and we also have to analyse the terms at which these banks are being taken over. Basically, the proper way to go about bailing out the banks is to let the shareholders lose everything at the same time, let the bondholders take a very significant cut and then the government should come in, recapitalise the banks, nurture them to health and resell them. But to essentially bail out the banks and still let the shareholders get away with it is probably the wrong medicine."

"In a perfect market you have hundreds and hundreds of competitors and if one competitor fails or goes bankrupt it's not the end of the world, because it's just one of a few hundred. In bankin
77

Breezy,

Argyll 15/10/2008 03:33:49
This article from the Times today just about hits the nail on the head. In true NuLab style, can anybody believe anything Broon says ?


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/daniel_finkelstein/article4944288.ece
78

democracy,

Scottish Borders 15/10/2008 03:37:27
#18 Richard 1, I really do think YOU should be running the show, after all you appear to have all the answers and know-how in all things financial and even political, you should team up with AM2 if you are not one and the same person and go the the world banks and advise them accordingly, simple really eh!!!
79

kirk 1,

15/10/2008 03:48:16
$50 a barrel of oil? Has anyon told OPEC?
Yer mad if you think that the Sheiks will let it drop to that price.
80

democracy,

Scottish Borders 15/10/2008 03:48:26
HEADLINE: "Brown: Banking crisis has proved case for the Union."

NO THANK YOU! THE UNION HAS GUIDED US INTO THIS MESS AND THEY ARE NOT THE ONES TO GUIDE US OUT OF IT.
THEY HAVE NO ROOM FOR MANOEUVRE BECAUSE OF HUGE DEBTS AND ZERO PUT ASIDE FROM THE GOOD TIMES TO HELP US IN THIS PRESENT SITUATION, ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE JUST BAD MANAGEMENT,AND IS NOW SCOTLAND'S "UNION DIVIDEND".
81

Blarney,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 04:36:03
Noticed certain unionists are now not mentioning Norway in it's "arc of insolvency", too easy a lie to dissprove.
Norway has a population of 4.9 million, similar natural resourses to us, less oil than us.
Here are some of the shocking figures from Norway this week after the battering it has taken from this world economic collapse.
Unemployment at 2%.
Inflation at 3.1% highest since 1988, up from 2.8% in Sept.
GDP up 0.6% every quarter this year.
Oil fund at $ 400 billion, forecast to $600 billion by 2011
sadly though the fund has only increased 2.4% in the last quarter due to global financial problems and is it's worst growth ever.
Main interest rate at 5.75%, possible cut coming.
Construction rate is up.
Manufacturing remains strong
Services only up slightly
Government to increase public spending over the next 12 months, areas to be targeted using it's oil wealth are health, education, research and environmental projects.
Yep they are pretty well buggered, I wouldn't be surprised if they go bankrupt very soon with the state it's in.
So, will someone please tell Norway they are broke and should get quickly back into a Union with Sweden, who incidentally is very small and is also great, thank you very much.
Brown = Lying bufoon who presided over our economy for 12 years and got us in this mess,
Brown = Horses rear end who thinks everything is fine and we don't mind that he has plunged us all into even more debt, over 16,000 each, what a clever chap he is, round of applause for that man, glad to see him genuinly smile for a change he deserves all our thanks.
82

Royster,

15/10/2008 05:39:08
Take your pounds and start buying up top of the range properties in Reykjavik - if they exist. If you hang on a couple of years, you'll be able to buy half of Dublin with a social security cheque.
83

donald,

glasgow 15/10/2008 05:44:54
This is Broon putting aside political differences for London Jock carpetbaggers.
84

Pilrig,

Livingston 15/10/2008 06:05:18
Well he would say that wouldn't he ?

Thanks to this move the UK is up to it's armpits in debt.

Forget retiring in your old age, the country cant afford you - as his comrade Blunkett sez, the elderly should work as long as they are physically able - Broon set the scene a decade ago with his pensions raid. And the is the saviour of the country ? Oh ma sides !

And we'll all look forward to the forthcoming tax rises - so bankers can live in the manner they are accustomed to.
85

izzie,

dundee 15/10/2008 06:15:32
So Brown reveals his real motivation - he has 'done whatever it takes'. The undisguised glee at the Labour party conference showed that Labour politicians care more about power than ordinary people left struggling with fuel poverty rising food prices and reduced pensions.

Brown and Darling may smugly think they have averted crisis and seen off the threat of the SNP but we will see how long the Brown bounce lasts. My guess is two weeks in fact if I know how I would bet on it.
86

Angleland Isover,

15/10/2008 07:01:11
Team gb may think this hinders Scotlands freedom but with the changes in banking it may make an independant Scotland more secure.
87

John S,

15/10/2008 07:13:06
#101 Blarney: That is not fair you mentioning Norway when us unionists want to concentrate on Iceland and Ireland.
88

Tamaz,

Airdrie 15/10/2008 07:30:26
God, Brown's comment just shows how far away from reality he is. Like his guarenteeing 50k in banks, the ordinary working man is worried over his job and has virtually no savings, but brown is going to use tax money to help those who are more financially secure than vast majority.
89

Linda,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 07:33:09
UK is going bankrupt. National Debt rising and now almost 50% of GDP and PFI liabilities "off balabce sheet" Good example of fantasy accounting by UK government.. oh is that not what the Banks were doing?
At 25 per cent, Ireland's debt-to-GDP ratio is the second-lowest in the European Union. At most, recapitalising our banks will add seven percentage points to that, bringing it to perhaps the fourth-lowest. If there is one thing Ireland isn't, it's insolvent.f
90

Rob,

15/10/2008 07:37:26
I suggest a few of you chaps stoke up your debate by reading a very erudite leading article in the The Times this morning entitled "Scottish Dependence"

A couple of tasters for you..........

"If Scotland were an independent nation today it would have been negotiating a rescue package with a foreign central bank and asking a foreign government to secure its deposits"

"The Union that has served them for three centuries may be the only asset in Scotland that has not depreciated sharply over the past two weeks. "

As they say, enjoy.

91

Graeme,

Guangzhou 15/10/2008 07:49:27
So who are lucky boys and girls then? Affectively bailed out by old Dad!

Proud to be part of the British Team.
92

lachlan,

15/10/2008 07:49:52
it's not the benefits of the uk we have seen over the past few days but the benefits of the eu.brown plans would not have worked without the eu.bring on the euro.the rbs and hbos are not scottish banks they are uk banks.
93

Unimpressed one,

15/10/2008 07:50:57
How many people have noticed that the line of of the great and the good that have 'saved' our banks were the same crowd who just a couple of years ago congratulated themselves in 'making poverty history'? I suspect that had they moved with as much speed and a fraction of the present bailout sums being bandied around today, the developing world might have some reasons to be cheerful. Thinking people can see were politicians place their priorities.
94

Rob,

15/10/2008 07:52:08
Blarney #101. You have ommitted the $5 billion they've begged from the Americans. As you know, these arc of prosperity nations are prepared to put the begging bowl in front of anyone prepared to give them a free soup - Iceland from Russia, Ireland from the EU and now Norway from the Americans.

Good to see Alex getting into the spirit of the arc on the tele last night with a claim for £1 billion. "Oor money", of course.
95

eric,

Lothian 15/10/2008 07:56:06
Dont see the irish republic wanting back into the union!Roll on the unemployment figures.then the public will deside .arrogant plank of wood.
96

eric,

15/10/2008 07:58:57
c
97

Number 6,

Germany 15/10/2008 08:04:09
This just goes to show Brown's mental state. Just ignore the fact he was a disaster as chancellor,that he did nothing to prevent this disaster, and that nothing is yet solved.

Couple this with the revelation that the contingency fund for the Englandshire olympics has already been raided to the tune of 700 million, and will all be gone soon. Also, private funding /investment for the games has disappeared .

This means the Scottish tax-payer is going to receive a much much much bigger slice of what is going to be ,
an astronomical figure.

There is talk for example of the goverment buying all the housing that will be built, with the profit from sales going to the tax-payer. What gibberish rubbish.
Experts have alreadty warned that so many houses coming on to the market, all in one area, will have a devestating effect on house prices.

We need to GET OUT of this ruinous "Union" as soon as is humanley possible.

They really do think the Scots are so ignorant that we would fall for such ludicrous garbage. What an embarresment he is to Scotland.
98

Number 6,

Germany 15/10/2008 08:05:38
ref #122... I meant of course a bigger slice of the BILL.
99

Finnzz,

15/10/2008 08:11:28
I'm afraid Brown appears to have shot himself in the foot, again, with this comment.
In the last ten years, the man has beggared the country to the extent that every single one of his claims of prosperity have now been rubbished and ridiculed.
Unfortunately, Scotland is still joined by the hip with the morally bankrupt Southern government whose total lack of expertise in any aspect of fiscal management has been amply demonstrated this last week.

It is now vitally important that the umbilical is cut or Scotland is going to be dragged down into the mire of bankruptcy.
100

Ursus arctos horribilis,

15/10/2008 08:22:22
I expect to read daft comments from the usual numpties like BTO but some of the comments on this thread particularly from the rabid nat-bashers beggar belief-economic ignorance taken to new lows.

The fact is all the western economies have been following the US and Greenspan's low-interest, credit expansionist model -a policy that has given us a "boom" based on inflated house values and unsustainable levels of debt. Therefore I find our esteemed PM's logic that because the UK economy is now going spectacularly bust- thanks largely to his own ineptitude and mismanagement-that this somehow makes the case for the Union to be simply ridiculous. How an independent Scotland would fare is an open and complex question and cannot be reduced to a tv soundbite.

History will judge Brown-remember he was the "no more boom and bust"-self-styled Iron Chancellor- the idiot whose master-stroke was to sell all our gold reserves for a pittance-that should have set the alarm bells ringing as to his fitness for purpose. He has brought ruin on our country for his own selfish power-hungry aims. But rather than doing the honourable thing he now struts around the world stage acting as if he is the saviour and is now desperately trying to reinflate the bubble in a futile attempt to win the next General election.

He must be hounded from office ASAP.
101

Guga II,

Rockall 15/10/2008 08:28:01
This is Maggie Broon again proving what a liar and charlatan he is.

This has come about due to his incompetency over the past 11 years, when he has been "in charge" of the YUK finances and finance regulation.

The existence of the "Union" has nothing to do with it at all. He is going to have to borrow the money on the international market, which proves him a liar, again.

An independent Scotland would not have had to borrow the money; we would have had a huge oil fund to cover ourselves. Instead, all our revenues, including our oil revenues, have been stolen by the English to subsidise London, and Maggie Broon's London business buddies.

Moreover, Maggie Broon's blatant attempt to sell the BoS to an English bank is part of his long term attempt to sell out Scotland and the Scottish people. The man is a disgrace to Scotland, and a traitor to the Scottish people.
102

Royc,

London 15/10/2008 08:39:45
I'm no Labour supporter but Brown has done the right thing to avert meltdown. While the UK has acted and got some liquidity back in the system, the US, France, Germany etc just dithered around until we produced the answer. Sure it will be financially painful but less than the cost of a total financial crash.

"Perhaps Gordon Brown should explain why Scotland was left exposed to the credit crunch in the first place."

Scotland and the rest of the world! The root of the problem was Carter and the Dems legislating in 1977 that mortgage lenders should make home loans available to people who couldn't generally afford them, the sub primes. The debt was 'securitised' and the risk sold in mega packages around the globe. Foolish banks like HBOS and RBS, under pressure from shareholders to produce ever-greater dividends, snapped them up with little understanding or concern about the risks should the US economy have a downturn. So the chickens came home to roost. The idea that 'Scotland was left exposed to the credit crunch is laughable'. I know some Nats live on a different economic planet but how could Scotland stand aside from the mess? - the main Scots banks were up to their oxsters in it, so are particularly culpable and Fred the Shred should not be the only one getting his P45.

That said, Brown has actually been a very poor chancellor, relying on a housing bubble and high taxes to keep things afloat when a more prudent man would have been reining things in.
103

Graeme,

Guangzhou 15/10/2008 08:45:09
#126 Gaga.

Only a traitor to little bearded people like you trying to look like Bonnie Prince Charlie off the back of a shortbread biscuit tin, whose grasp of economics obviously stopped with your last pay packet and the dog track!
104

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 15/10/2008 08:49:28
Number of Nationalized Banks
Iceland 3
Norway 0
Ireland 0
UK 2

Number of Part Nationalized Banks
Iceland 0
Norway 0
Ireland 0
UK 3

If you scored this like football with 3 Points for a Nationalization and 1 point for a Partial Nationalization the UK would be tied with Iceland on 9 points each. As an Independent Country the best Scotland could have managed would have been 2 Partial Nationalizations which would have given us two points. Or we might to have nationalized any at all. So it goes to show the if you want to stay a player in the Failed Bank League the Union is Best

105

,

15/10/2008 08:50:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
106

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 08:53:30
1 - We need Scottish independence more than ever.
2 - Finance is not devolved.
3 - Brown's lack of financial regulation was a prime factor for the mess we are in now. Why should we thank the "expert" who was wrong and is loading us up to our eyes in even more debt to bail out his city friends. Those who assured him that self regulation was the way to go.
4 - Many small countries are relatively unaffected.
5 - Ireland took action before the UK and has not spent a single penny on the banks. They believe that restoring confidence is more important than pouring good money after bad.
6 - Our anti terror legislation was used to grab the UK arm of an Icelandic Bank and then sell off its assets to ING. The result was immediate insolvency for the bank in Iceland, can this happen to UK banks ?
107

Michael,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 08:54:43
"If Scotland were an independent nation today it would have been negotiating a rescue package with a foreign central bank and asking a foreign government to secure its deposits"

"The Union that has served them for three centuries may be the only asset in Scotland that has not depreciated sharply over the past two weeks. "

But isn't that in efect what Brown says we have had to do. If the Union has served us so well for three hundred years then why is it that we are in the position of having to beg the Treasury in London to save our banks. Morally and economically what's the difference between having to do this with an ostensibly non-foreign regime and one which is?

I love the idea that begging England to save us - which is what Brown's argument is in its distilled form - is somehow better than asking anyone else to save us. We know why the unionists are so excited about what's happened - it's allowed them to reprise their argument about independence - that Scotland is too poor and too small to have it. But they must accept that it is Scotland within the Union that has been reduced to this state. Looking round our near neighbours I still have to say that there is no evidence that we are better off than any of them.
108

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 09:02:39
#133
"Can Nationalists explain in a clear concise way without getting lost in jargon how they intend dealing with the downward economic cycle that is coming?"
Can Gordon Brown ?
109

Venachar,

15/10/2008 09:02:59
It was bankrupcy that led to the Union 300 years ago. How ironic that a modern version of the same will lead to independance soon.

Browns speech on the BBC was disgusting. Basically he said that Scotland was only fit to be a lapdog looking for scraps at the foot of Englands table. Shame on George W's poodle.
110

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 09:03:48
103

Idiot boy the UK has a personal debt burden of over 2.1 trillion pounds sterling WTF do you think has the "pounds" to buy up property in Reykjavik and Dublin when they cant even afford to keep up their own mortgages?
This lauded bail out by the union propaganda press of UK institutions hasnt been paid for yet and it wont be for decades. The price of the bail out will be even higher tax increaces than were previously planned. Instead of 4% local tax increaces we can expect anything from 7 to 9% increaces along with a VAT increace, higher road tax increaces, higher income tax increaces, higher NI contributions etc etc etc.
The UK doesnt actually have the money to bail out the institutions yet. It has to rob Peter to pay Paul.
111

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 09:06:24
135

Maybe you can explain in clear consise jargonless language how its possible to deal with any type of crises when you dont control any of your own assets resourses or income compared to combatting any type of crises with full control of all your assets and income.
Maybe just maybe somewhere in your answer will lie the answer to your question.
112

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 09:10:57
134

So your suggesting an Independent Scotland should endevour to negotiate its way into one of the successful federations such as the US? or Switzerland? or Austrailia?
113

Alan B,

15/10/2008 09:11:08
Brown the clown is the only person that could argue his incompetent handling of the uk's economic management is a reason for staying within the union.

Maybe he could tell us why in 10yrs a chancellor he failed to address scotlands poor economic growth.
114

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 09:13:07
143

Well I just gave you one.
115

Yeti,

15/10/2008 09:15:18
#8
Not sure that would be any better. Looking at the BBC news, they have been shameless about saying that Scotland is seeking to be "bailed out" etc. Their coverage has been truly appaling
116

Scotsman in Dublin,

15/10/2008 09:17:08
#134,
Fact 1 ??? So what?
Fact 2 What makes you think that the USA is going to be able to cope any more than Ireland - i think that remains to be seen.
Fact 3 Again???? The UK is not a federation. The USA and Switzerland may call themselves federations but they are still independent countries, Switzerland is not much bigger than Scotland. If Scotland becomes independent and calls itself the united states of Scotland then it would be very similar to Switzerland, would that give you a warm feeling about independance.
117

Calum10,

15/10/2008 09:19:52
If the Union saved the banks how come 40,000 people are to lose their jobs in the takeover of HBOS by Lloyds?

If the Union saved the financial sector how come this UK government was asleep on the job for 11 years?

If the Union is so wonderful why is it that Scotland is to suffer a deep and prolonged recession?

I see that lights in Iceland are still on.

I see Ireland has not had to nationalise any of it's banks.

I see that Norway found £35 billion of oil funds to shore up it's financial sector.

I see that Denmark, Sweden and Finland will not go into recession.

I see that the UK has now has the largest national debt per capita in Europe.

Gordon Brown is serving up the old Unionist garbage that Scotland is too poor, too stupid and too small to look after it's own affairs.

The last few weeks have shown that the Union is bust. It has no relevance in the world we Scots now live in.
118

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 15/10/2008 09:20:09
Brown is trying to milk this situation for all it's worth. But what is he admitting?

1) On his watch he failed to activate an operational regulatory system which would have prevented the excesses of the last 11 years.
2) He has spent and spent until there is nothing left in the coffers to bail anyone out. It's now all based on borrowing and (once again) taxpayers' money.
3) He has srood by and let house prices go on a rampant inflation drive and actively encouraged this by artificially tweaking the "rate of inflation" (CPI) to exclude house prices - that the laughable one where he could claim an inflation target of 2% was being met.
4) It's not over yet! You'd think the whole mess was sorted out last week. Here is the news - it ain't, and there will have to be savage cuts in public expenditure (unless he plans to continue ploughing us under) or eye-watering increases in taxation to cover.
5) If other countries did not get themselves into this mess what'ss different about the UK and the US? Back to regulation and the control of financial institutions to effect prudent measures. Broon is admitting we just went on a complete splurge and he didn't care as long as the tax coffers were full and his job was OK.

He further admits how bankrupt his political and financial morals are by importing the ddisgraced Mandelson and elevating him to a peerage. Or should that be lowering since the currency on this honour appears to be disappearing fast under Blair and Brown's favourite political lever.

Far from proving the case for the Union, Brown has proved that without check the Labour-led Union has debased and demoralised this nation (UK) as well as Scotland and adequately demonstrated that individual financial chicanery betrays their wider contempt for the taxpaying and voting public who they regard as pawns in their own advancement. But not for much longer!

119

shivago8,

livingston 15/10/2008 09:20:38
Broon,s a blaw bag,maybe he was the man responsible for the financial fiasco to stop the SNP bandwaggon
120

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 15/10/2008 09:21:36
Brown stepped in with borrowed money to "bail out" the banks.

Why does borrowing money make the case for the Union?
121

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 09:23:50
145

The Unionist British establishment is trying very hard to disguise the fact that Scotland is suffering badly with this crises because its part of the union by trying to brazenly lie that it would be far worse off had it been independent. They cant of course explain in any detail how that would be except to say that the UK treasury is now going to bail out 2 Scottish financial institutions with UK tax payers money.
Their argument is this wouldnt have been possible by an Independent Scottish government because an Independent Scotland would of course be a financial basket case with the performance potential of Albania remember that one?
They want you to forget that Scotland is one of the most natural resource rich countries on the planet and is the only naturally resource rich country on the planet completely incapable of using its natural resources to benefit itself. Only within the union can Scotland resources be used to their full potential.

That is simply the case they want to present to the Scottish electorate and they expect us to be stupid and dumb enough to believe it because we have believed it for the last 300 years so maybe they have a point?
122

Jimmy Le Pie,

15/10/2008 09:25:07
It amazes me to hear all the drivel about how Comrade Broon has saved the world from financial ruin, yet he was one of the main proponents of the credit boom.

And where is the money coming from to save the financial sector??
Oh yes, it's being borrowed!

What will he be called if these panic measures fail??
123

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 09:29:45
153

And the answer is just as simple the same way every other capitalist Independent nation does with the access to the same resources Scotland has.
124

Doh,

15/10/2008 09:29:59


Since Brown is one of the prime architects of the credit boom - he will in the end take the blame.

No more Boom and Bust.

No more Brown.
125

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 15/10/2008 09:32:51
The irony is that even Brown doesn't believe his own propaganda. He is only a Unionist because it suits his personal ambitions.
126

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 09:34:31
155

Yep your right at the end of the day all of the media lies spin and deceit isnt going to be able to cover up for the mess Browns Government has got us into and certainly cant cover up the last 10 years of Browns Chancellorship nor the fact that the Iraq and Afgan wars played a very significant part in this financial fiasco. I havent even seen the annual bill this country has to fork out for the wars has anybody else?
127

Michael,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 09:37:08
#153

Really, I don't want to encourage you because your arguments are so facile but, in view of the fact, that all governments are nationalist, perhaps you could tell us why you think a specificaaly Scottish government would be unable to sort out problems that other countries are quite able to manage.
128

Edward,

15/10/2008 09:41:20
Now watch out for the BBC Scotland's day on Money today
the newly 'aquired' Douglas Fraser already spouting his pro unioist bile on the BBC website, with remarks like 'Humiliation: the verdict passed on the two financial flagships of the Scottish economy as they turned to the UK Government for a massive bail-out this week' as his opening line
An continueing Browns guff about injecting £ 37 billion capital.
Sorry but why cant they tell the truth?
The fact is they have NOT injected this amount!
They are only about to provide £ 5 billion to RBS NOT the £ 20 billion the unionist politicians and their pom pom twirling journalists keep mouthing. RBS will be selling to exsistig shareholders shares that will give them £ 15 billion capital.
Yes I am an exsiting shareholder and yes I will be taking upo the offer as yes I think it will be a good deal as RBS are a safe bet to climb out of the current crisis!
129

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 09:42:26
159

So we have the world media tellings us that only the UK government realised the only options open were bail out or bust? in spite of the fact that nearly all the countries in trouble have been bailing out their finacial institutions even before Gordon Brown opened his mouth?
Is this really the next lying spinning bullsh*t thats going to make its way out of Liebour HQ?
130

Marian,

15/10/2008 09:42:31
Gordon Brown ignores one very fundamental fact as usual in his diatribe against the SNP and that is an Independent Scotland would not have had the economically incompetent Gordon Brown at its economic helm creating the circumstances that have led to the financial havoc that is now engulfing the whole of the UK. What he doesn't tell you, of course, is that the UK and America are the only two economies which have been hit in such a particularly devastating way. There's a reason for that. With Brown as chancellor the UK let its finances get out of control and encouraged a debt boom, the like of which we had never seen before. Nations which managed their finances more conservatively have had fewer problems. Any rescue packages they are having to impose are largely due to the knock-on effect of the collapse in world markets because of what has happened in American and the UK, rather than in their own countries. Like other European nations an Independent Scotland would not be as affected today as it is because it is within the UK. Brown must not be allowed to get off the hook. He set up the current regulatory system and must be held responsible for it. It has failed and he is the man to blame. He was told over and over again the tripartite system was not working, yet took no notice whatsoever. It's all very well to blame bankers for taking short term risks - but the regulatory system which Brown was responsible for not only allowed them to do so but positively encouraged such behaviour. The warnings were there, but Brown ignored them.
131

jj veritas,

15/10/2008 09:44:21
Brown has the perfect exit strategy. Hold an election, jump sideways to the Lords and get paid £104,000 + expenses in addition to his multi £million pound pension for being prime minister.

The best part is that someone else can try to clean up the mess.
132

Edward,

15/10/2008 09:47:05
Curiously no unionist mentions Finland
Finland, same population size as Scotland
and doing rather well, no Bank crisis nada, not even news worthy
So Brown and is flock of unioist journalists can stick the arguement that Scotland is too small to survive right up where the sun doesnt shine.
If it WAS a case of size matters, then why is the US, much bigger than any other country involved in the current crisis, hitting the skids and doing badly?
Something tghe unionists try to avoid
(was interesting when this came up on last nights Newsnight Scotland, Gordon Brewer tried to brush that one aside by rushing on to talk to someone else!)
133

Edward,

15/10/2008 09:49:09
Slightly off topic
Anyone notice hwen the BBC were reporting that Lord that put his size 9's in his gob over Terrorism. OPening shot in the Lords, you could see the Baron Foulkes puting his time in there.
What is strange is , isnt he supposed to be in Holyrood on a Tuesday?
134

The Strategist,

15/10/2008 09:49:10
Brown hasn't produced a miracle and he hasn't done the "right thing". In fact he's done the only thing any Govt could have done which is why all the other Govts are doing roughly the same thing. There was no Plan B other than complete economic meltdown.

135

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 09:49:13
164

It only goes to further illustrate that the union has nothing but lies to defend itself with.
136

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 09:50:57
165

Then I suggest you get away from irrelevance and get with the blog. Your questions border on the inane.
137

Edward,

15/10/2008 09:51:25
#153
Your question is very stupid
Can onl think that you should be at school or your just demented.
Or better still you just dont understand what happens in Holyrood
138

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 09:51:35
162 Marian
"that is an Independent Scotland would not have had the economically incompetent Gordon Brown"

How can you be sure of that. If Scotland had become independent 20 or 30 years ago, how would Gordon Brown have pursued his political career?
139

Itchy,

15/10/2008 09:54:26
#165 "Boom and bust seems the natural cycle of Capitalism."

Wrong. It is the cycle of interventionism.

#159 Paul Krugman is a pseudo-economist known for his Keynesianism. He thinks a free lunch is possible, as does Comrade Brown.

140

John S,

15/10/2008 09:55:12
#119:Did Norway borrow $5 billion or was it a temporary 'swap' arrangement where the US Federal Reserve supplied dollars ($30 billion) to the central banks of Australia ($10 billion) Denmark ($5 billion),Norway ($5 billion) and Sweden ($10 billion) in exchange for their currencies ? Sep 24, 2008
141

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 09:55:44
171

Well for one thing Gordon Brown is not an "elected" leader and would never have won an election for New Liebour as their leader. He just isnt PM material at all. And no right wing tory will ever make it as PM of an Independent Scotland we are simply too socialist to allow it.
142

Calum10,

15/10/2008 09:55:47
It is being reported in the London media that Gordon Brown had been ignoring official warnings from the Bank of England since 2002 about the exposure of UK banks and the UK financial sector in general to the build up of a global credit bubble.

So for 6 years Gordon Brown has KNOWINGLY taken a HIGH RISK stance with the UK financial sector.
143

sid the sceptic,

PAISLEY 15/10/2008 09:56:10
hi - calum 10 saved me a lot of typing , Brown and Blair have sat back over the last 10 years and allowed this to happen. the total arrogance of brown to then turn up and tell the world he is the saviour is unbelievable.
would Scotland have survived if it was independent we will never know until we have the guts to at least try!
144

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 09:56:59
173

Wasnt it the US who borrowed from China?
145

The Strategist,

15/10/2008 10:03:12
There are now 1.8m people unemployed. Predicted to be over 2m by Christmas and possibly 2.5m-3m by the middle of 2009.

Thank you Gordon.
146

Michael,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 10:05:18
#173

Borrowing is part of the way the economy works. Where do you think the money for the appositely named Brown Plan is coming from?
147

Alan B,

15/10/2008 10:05:30
#tommytommy

"Boom and bust seems the natural cycle of Capitalism."

There will always be an economic cycle but countries can avoid boom and bust to a large degree.

Much of the previous boom and bust the uk was renouned for was due to governments lowering interest rates to win elections over cooking it, creating too big a boom and then inflation. A bust would follow as interest rates are hiked to lower inflation.

As such good economic management can prevent domestically generated boom and bust. However in a global world it is much harder to prevent the bust when their are global issues. However prudent economic management can ensure that any global problems and downturns can be dealth with and the issue minimised.

If all the big western economies were run on a more prudent basis then the chances of avoiding the busts would be increased. ie if the US and UK had not allowed silly lending. Australia has been growing well but has a well regulated and secure banks due to tight regulations. The Uk fundamental problem is the failure to control house price inflation. All serious economists knew Browns strategy of allowing personal debt to get out of control was daft.

Finally the uk has not really had boon and bust this time round. We have had steady growth (average 2.8% over a decade) and now bust. We have not had the boom. Booms are normally when you grow much faster than the economy should. ie under the tories in 87 and then 88 the economy grew by about 4.5/4.6% both of these yrs. It was these ridiculous and unsustainable growth rates that caused the inflation and the bust around 89-91.
148

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 10:06:14
178

And those are the lying stats put out by the government the true figure of unemployment should take into consideration those out of work who dont qualify for unemployment benefits for a start.
149

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 15/10/2008 10:07:22
Independance is coming. Brown you are a fool to think the Scottish people are not planning to oust you and your scaramanger style politics from our nation at the first opportunity. Begone ye auld eejit...
150

MandyMac,

Glasgow 15/10/2008 10:07:43
I for one am cheering Mr Brown on, the SNP plague is being eradicated and Mr Salmond looks like a fat chipmunk with no food. I fundamentally oppose Scotland going it alone, in a global world we'd eat ourselves.
151

Doh,

15/10/2008 10:08:15
"Although it has taken the near-collapse of capitalism to achieve it, experts believe Mr Brown has bought himself a 5-6 per cent credit-crunch dividend with his bail-out brainchild."

The only evidence I can see for this statement is that teh last YouGov poll showed a +2% to Labour. Not 5 or 6 as perhaps wished for by Labour supportign experts.

Unfortunately for Labour the truth will out and Brown will be blamed for his part in creating this crisis. His laughable "No More Boom or Bust" will haunt him until the next election.

No more Brown.


152

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 15/10/2008 10:08:20
Only in politics would a lawyer be deemed qualified to run a country's economy and a historian qualified to run the country.
153

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 10:08:25
179

Its going to come from higher rates of taxation increaces over the next 10 to 20 years no matter who gets into Westminster and the only way to avoid this massive tax hike is to go Independent.
You read it here first.
154

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 15/10/2008 10:08:59
#183 What a sad individual you are.
155

Alan B,

15/10/2008 10:12:31
#Calum10

Brown allowed personal consumption through debt to grow to deal with the downturn in the global economy in the late 90s because of the end of the dot com boom.

For a couple of yrs that was understandable. After that he just allowed it to keep going despite anyone with any understanding of the economy knowing that it was not sustainable.

Economies need to grow by investment and exporting not just running up more and more personal debt that would have to be paid at some point. Allied to massive public expenditure rises also paid for via debt and the artificially high tax returns from his consumption generated boom.

Why did he do it? It is noticable that he peaked his government expenditure rises for when he expected to be taking over as prime minister. His first spending round was actually very tight. His deal with Blair was to take over after one term. He increased public spending massively around the time he expected to be leader.
156

Red Tower,

Dunoon 15/10/2008 10:13:11
#19

A Van Gough painting (whatever that might be) might be worth £200 but anyone who knows anything about art will tell you that a Van Gogh is worth a helluva lot more than £200. By the way there were times in Van Gogh's life when he would have been glad to eat mouldy turnips.
157

AJ Fife,

15/10/2008 10:14:10
So Broon copies a strategy used by the Swedish govt 16 years ago to save their banking system and now he's a genius.

Let's not forget it is directly because of him Scotland's banks have HAD to be nationalised! He created the greed laden climate for the banks to exploit and subsequently collapse.

Genius??? My *rse!
158

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 10:14:12
188

I dont have enough cash in my bank account to solve the worlds problems all I can hope to do is to try and vote for the best government possible and for the best solution for Scotland to be able to weather these problems when they arise.

You on the other hand want to come onto these blogs are mire it in idiotic posts while Rome burns.
159

K McDonald,

Glasgow 15/10/2008 10:15:23
26 Fed up of the union,15/10/2008 01:13:03
I marvel at how unionists can celebrate the humiliation of their own country.>>>

Nonsense. You shouldn't take is so personally. Weak commercial banks failed. Are the Germans humilated because their second largest mortgage lender failed? Are the Belgians? The Amercicans? The Geordies? Tykes?

The only ones who should be humiliated are the utterly incompetent managers of the banks and their apologists - like Salmond's SNP. Especially RBS who had it, then threw it all away on one massive greedy ego trip.

If the discredited Embra-banking fraternity are so humiliated, and are convinced that they could do better, then they should set up their own "Scottish" bank. Let them put their money where their big incompetent gobs are.




160

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 10:18:13
Why is everybody ignoring the Iraq Afgan war factor is all of this? dont tell me nobody else believes these wars played a very significant part in the global economic situation of today?
Both the US and the UK have and still are spending billions on sustaining unwinnable wars while our financial institutions are crying out for government bail outs.
Would this crises have occured had we not decided to invade Iraq and Afganistan? I doubt it very much.
You cannot put this down simply as bad debt in the mortgage market.
161

Alan B,

15/10/2008 10:19:17
#K McDonald

How can Salmond be humilated by Browns complete incompetence in running an economy?

162

Mikey,

15/10/2008 10:20:02
It's reallt sickening to see the onionists positively crowing as the UK heads towards recession.

A busted union and a busted economy. As these clowns start to lose their jobs, will they be so happy about their union? Or will they, like the rest of the uneducated scum, just go off and vote for some other union stalwarts like the BNP?

163

Marian,

15/10/2008 10:20:54
Quote from Danny Finkelstein's column in today's Times of London newspaper:-

"This has not been a triumph for Mr Brown, it has been a catastrophe. It is said that he is having a good war. I think this success is confined to the fluency of his signature on the surrender documents. He is having a good war, in the same way that the Kaiser had a good war. Some of his supporters argue that the last week has been his Falklands. True. And he is General Galtieri."
164

gus1940,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 10:20:57
#8

On monday I received an e-mail from The Scotsman inviting me to complete their latest reader survey.

This I duly did.

What intrigued me was one of the questions which asked my opinion on the paper's content. The question covered between 20 & 30 individual headings to be commented on.

Guess what was omitted from the list - POLITICS.

Why is JP not interested in what its rapidly declining readership thinks of its political coverage?

I reckon they are only interested in deluging us with a daily catalogue of hardline unionist lies in the forlorn hope that some of the readers are so thick that they will actually give credence to the blatant political propaganda shovelled in their direction.
165

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 10:21:01
What a daft comment for Brown to make.

I am not a unionist, nor am I a nationalist but at the moment I come down firmly on the side of unionism because of two complete idiots in the SNP who have far too much power and not enough common sense.

I am of course referring to Robison and MacAskill. There is no way I would be happy with a political scenario where they had absolute control. We would loose all our freedoms and would return to the days of puritanism.

If Salmond was to fire them, and with them went the ridiculous ideas, then I would be a bit more conducive to nationalism. And I do not think that I am alone there.
166

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 10:21:18
Yes! 200!
167

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 10:27:02
199

No of course yer not a unionist. With all thats going wrong with the UK government you choose to come on here and critisize the SNP over what amounts to trying to do our youngsters a favour.
What a prat.
168

Alan B,

15/10/2008 10:29:17
#Alternative

Surely you should be pro or against independence depending on whether you think scotland has performed well over the past 30yrs or so within the union. How you think we should be governed in the future. etc

Making a decision to remain within the union or going independence based on not liking a one point in time politician running the justice ministery is abit like voting for independence becuase you do not like the home secretary in the uk. Don't like Blunkett vote indpendence type of thing.

Independence is not about even this snp administration. It is about whether scotland would be better run by scotland with scotland choosing its leaders and parties of government. It is about whether your regard scotland voting for labour and england the tories and the uk run by the tories a democratic deficit. It is about whether labour selling out all its values and policies that made it popular in scotland to get elected in middle england, is detrimental to scotland.
169

John S,

15/10/2008 10:33:55
We still have the Airdrie Savings Bank.
Airdrie Savings Bank was formed as part of a movement to bring banking services to the wider community in 1835.
Airdrie Savings Bank is the only remaining Savings Bank in the UK. It has no shareholders and is instead governed by a Board of Trustees, appointed to represent the interests of depositors and to ensure that the Bank is managed properly:http://www.airdriesavingsbank.net//
170

Guga II,

Rockall 15/10/2008 10:35:51
#128 Gruamach.

Listen little dwarf, why don't you get your mother to explain things properly to you, right after she has given you your medication.

In any event, since when did you become an expert on economics; after all you are still hiding out in China from your creditors.
171

Steve,

Bo'ness 15/10/2008 10:36:13
So are we to beleive the ridiculous Labour LIE that Ireland, Iceland, Norway, Finland presumably Denmark, Belgium, etc etc etc are all DOOMED because they are small countries, while mother Britain will ride out the storm?
Haha!!! What complete rubbish. If the UK was not heading for recession and unemployment rocketing, then Broon might have a point. One minute he says "it's no my fault, it's the global economy", and the next minute he insults the Irish and Norwegians by telling them they are too small to be independent. What a hypocrite. Fact is he helped get us into this mess in the first place, and now he wants praise for finally trying to stop the rot. At your expense.
172

The Strategist,

15/10/2008 10:37:10
#203

And don't forget the Dunfermline Building Society... !!!
173

Sile,

Can't Stop Laughing 15/10/2008 10:37:15
Nevsky##Personally i am completely aghast that not one Scottish journalist has even attempted to print a balanced view about this man's involvement in the whole afair and the true cost to the economy.

I think i an about to give up on the Scottish press and turn to the English papers for a more balanced and frankly a higher standars of journalism.

Seems that it is not only the Scottish Banks that are losing their reputation!

Personally i believe the people can see through the utter c**p and Glenrothes will show it first####

Nevsky your 'avin a larf. or living in cukoo land if you are going to turn to the English Papers for facts.we are being treated to this fantasy that Brown is the saviour of the world, nowt about it was him and his cohorts that created this debacle bLiar has been proved to lie to the House, over the Ecclestone donations and the Speaker wants him in front of a select committee, yeah like the inquiries over the lying barstewards 48 hrs before we were blasted from this earth and the death of Dr Kelly if bLiar lied so did Gordychov.It's a big cover up to detract from Brown' Folly, and you should fight to keep Scotland they are slowly eradicating the word English/England even from food products St Georges flag forget it only the jack is shown, English Democrats held a march at Easter there was a Blackout order on the media and they were not allowed through Parliament Square, plus photos taken continually by coppers dressed like a swat team. it makes me laugh when I hear about how good we have it in England.. Brown has only saved the Scottish Connection in this *ankers farce cos he want the by election and he wants it bad. my prayer is that you shout it loud BROWN OUT..
174

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 10:41:57
#202:

I make my political decisions based upon my trust and agreement with those who have the privilege to be in positions of power, and who are likely to in the future.

When the SNP took over, I was actually pleased because I thought it would be a long overdue respite from stupid labour madness. As it turns out I was wrong. The SNP instantly reneged on a key manifesto pledge, then they embarked on policies which continued with stupid labour ways with renewed vigour.

Then we have MacAskill who wants to turn us all into tee-total plebs and Robison who wants to marginalise a significant minority of the population in a way that Adolf Hitler would have been proud of. And Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon do not seem prepared to do anything about it (like sack the idiots).

If this is a view of what Scotland would be like with independence, when they will be able to force through their ridiculous legislation without consulting Westminster then frankly it is scary... very scary.

At the end of the day, I want people leading us who firstly think before opening gob (unlike MacAskill) and leave us alone to make our own choices (unlike Robison). Having an independent Scotland is al very romantic and twee---and in some ways might be desireable---but certainly not if the population is cowed by authority and stifled by un-neccessary, bigoted and oppressive legislation.

Remove MacAskill, remove Robison and drop the stupid ideas. Then let's see how we stand.
175

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 10:45:13
#202:

"It is about whether scotland would be better run by scotland with scotland choosing its leaders and parties of government."

Which clearly it would not otherwise you wouldn't have the likes of MacAskill and Robison in positions of power. If the SNP were more like the Tories than an over-zealous remake of stupid labour then I would be right behind independance. As it is, I want to retain what few freedoms I have left and I do not want to be discriminated against.
176

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 10:45:55
208

What a crock you have never come on these blogs with that logon and posted any balanced view of any story you have always slagged the SNP and avoided any critisism of the UK government you are nothing more than another troll logon account.
GTF ya waste of posting space.
177

John S,

15/10/2008 10:47:46
#206. Many thanks:We still have the Dunfermline Building Society.
The Dunfermline was established in 1869 in the town of Dunfermline from which it takes its name.
By the end of 2005, the Society had 34 branches and 38 agencies throughout Scotland. Around 20% of its business is generated from outwith Scotland.
The Society is a mutual organisation and as such, exists to serve the needs of members without the necessity to satisfy shareholders. Profits made are sufficient only to provide for the costs of the business.
http://www.dunfermline.com/index.aspx
178

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 10:49:51
#210:

Learn how to write properly before you criticise me.
179

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 10:51:28
212

Why?
180

Scotfree,

Erskine 15/10/2008 10:53:47
An astonishing admission that Brown acts to destroy Scotland’s banking sector for perceived political advantage and is fully supported in this by the master of lies, the BBC. I think most people would ask for an election first before the war criminal and master fraudster Brown does any more damage to pension and shareholders "hard working families (sic) paying gas and electricity" and bank workers whose careers have be destroyed by this foppish clown.
The main basis of the Bank of England, prior to fraudster Brown, was to act as lender of last resort, supporting Banks through times of crisis and uncertainty. Brown, as in many other areas of life, treats it as a political tool to be used for short-term political advantage whatever the long-term damage to the institution and the rest of the economy. So instead of supporting the banks he makes the market aware that this is not to be the case, allowing the share price of selected banks to crash for his own ends. The was the case with both HBOS and RBS where in the case of RBS the share price fell more than the so called rescue package (Labour speak for a fraud on shareholders which was the basis for the takeover.)
From a Scottish point of view this only supports the argument for independence, as it is evident that England will always seek to deny Scotland anything but a subordinate place in the Europe and the World and will consistently work to maximise it's own advantage at Scotland’s expense
181

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 10:53:50
212

I fully expect you now to come on here with your other accounts and ruin the blog as it is obviously going against the Liebour government and some very good points have been made. Its the usual pattern. I now fully expect to see you come on here as SM, Ugly George, rufus etc etc etc.
182

,

15/10/2008 11:00:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
183

,

15/10/2008 11:02:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
184

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 11:02:32
#213:

Because you can't hope to have any credibility unless you can at least put your thoughts down in writing in a proper manner.

And what you write shows that you are making assumptions about me that are plainly incorrect:-

"...always critisize the SNP..." -- I have previously made comments in the past such as "Salmond talks a lot of sense" and "I was pleased that the SNP won the election". If you bothered to actually read my comments, you would see that I have two issues with the SNP and they are MacAskill and Robison. And for good reason.

"...always avoid critisizing the UK Government..." -- Oh yeah, I suppose my repeated phrase "stupid labour" isn't critical of the UK government then? Neither is my public hatred of Blair, Mandleson and Brown? And the fact that I have said on many occasions that "stupid (new) labour" should never have happened doesn't count for anything either? Or the fact that I have pointed out the doubleing of the tax burden since 1997? Or my disgust at the "cool britannia" phase? Or the pointing out of the lies regarding Iraq?

Please get real and open your eyes before you go off on one. I probably hate the UK government more than you do, but at least they currently protect us from MacAskill and Robison... and that is essential.
185

Marga,

15/10/2008 11:05:32
Another quote from Finkelstein's article in the Times:
("If this is triumph I'd hate to see a disaster") - Thanks to the people who have mentioned it:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/daniel_finkelstein/article4944288.ece

Gordon Brown is enjoying himself so much at the moment that it is sometimes hard to recall whether the aim of the exercise is for him to save the banks or vice versa.

And it ends (but do read it all because it really makes its case):

The idea that boom and bust had been abolished was not a small claim among many. It was the central claim of this Government. It was the boast of boasts - the boast upon which all other boasts were built. And now it has been revealed as totally empty. Not triumph, then. Disaster. Not victory. Total, utter, dreadful defeat.

Note - the Times has much to say on both sides today. If only the Scottish papers could be as balanced ...
186

Cpt Incredible,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 11:06:32
A post that echoes my sentiments about it all.Well said Edward.

49 Edward

I couldnt believe what I was seeing, shown on Reporting Scotland at Lunchtime, then in the evening and then on Newsnight Scotland, with a apparent gleeful Gordon Brewer!
Gordon Brown attacking the idea of an Independent Scotland, stating that an Independent Scotland could not of afforded to put in the £ 37 billion that the UK government had (Actually they havent done so , so far)
He was arrogant about it.

This was a strange 'exclusive' interview with what appeared to be loaded questions, which were prepared in order to set of a course of anti Independence statements by Brown.
The timing is also curious, and would back up what Ive been advocating since the Scottish bank share crash of last week, that this has been wholly orchestrated by Labour, that is using the financial crisis in world markets as a vehicle to manipulate the markets in such a way as to cause shares specifically in the Scottish banks to fall. Then ride to the rescue, then come out and state that Scotland would be worse off if Independent.
The theme is carried accross, when Yvette Cooper, wife of Ed Balls (the person who breifed Robert Peston). Was being interviewed earlier on the Network version of Newsnight, when commenting on the Banking crisis in general, would ONLY refer to RBS and HBOS as being the banks responsible for issuing mortgages recklessly at stupid percentages of salary etc. Why did she not mention other banks or building societies, why name RBS and HBOS specifically?
187

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 11:10:44
218

Ok I will bite this time just for the sake of a bit of clarity.

I probably hate the UK government more than you do, but at least they currently protect us from MacAskill and Robison... and that is essential.

What exactly is a government who wants to bring in ID cards 42 days and ultimately 90 days detention while at the same time loses personal data by the train load going to protect us from?
188

JCA REID,

Annan 15/10/2008 11:13:07
Talk about a crisis of his own making saving his neck!! Brown has sat on 11years of mismanagement & simply by throwing £30-50billion at it, he is deemed a maestro. [It could me more before he is finished & maybe all he has done is move the problem further along in time for someone else to deal with].
If Scotland had been an independent country it would have coped quite capably with this situation. Ever since the mid-late 1950's Scotland was in SURPLUS in terms of money earned to monies expended, but Westminster put paid to that in several ways! & as for going under - what about all the other small countries,....some of which have NOT even been troubled by these events!
Another matter is why are these Local Authorities getting this money to invest in Foreign Banks? They claim they have no money & that is why Council Taxes etc. are being increased? Remember the Western Isles & BCCI? £20million down the Swanee!
Furthermore Gordon Brown is no leader/economist - I wouldn't put him in charge of a Garden Party on the Manse Lawn!
189

Prudence,

Scotland 15/10/2008 11:15:33
Lets just wait and see what the result of the Glen Rothes election is.
190

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 11:18:08
218

Hello are ye still there? so how about it what exactly are the UK government going to protect us from?
191

Alan B,

15/10/2008 11:18:13
#Alternative

"oppressive legislation"

I would have thought the most oppressive legislation is coming from Westminster eg ID cards, survellience society, 42 days detention, using anti terror laws to eject pensions from labour party conferences, terror laws to grab iceland banks assets etc.

Independence is not about a romatic idea. But about whether you want scotland to choose it parties of governance. Whether we can kick them out if we do not like them. About trying to have policies to address Scotlands problems.

And with respect to the tories they while they inherited a mess from previous labour and tory governments the last tory government of scotland for 17yrs did not leave scotland with a strong economy. 17yrs was long enough if they had any answers.

I do think the parties in scotland are pretty poor in general. But do put alot of that down to the union. Labour do not know what they are and are a complete mess. The tories being in power when they were not wanted has destroyed them as a political forse. And they are in fear of coming up with any serious policies. The lib dems have been poorly lead. While devolution has helped it will be a long time before scotland political seen is rejuvinated and i cannot see that happening without independence based on the historic issues we have seen with the union.


192

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 11:27:38
Octane

You want to compare trying to deal with the real dangers of binge drinking to the suppression of human rights with draconian police measures and unprecedented levels of national surveillence?

You would rather criticise a Government who is trying to deal with a serious health hazard which causes all manner of social problems and personal tragedies to a Government who wants to take away any semblence of democratic choice, legal representation, and privacy?
And you still expect us to take you seriously?
193

Guffie Ba,

Malvern 15/10/2008 11:29:33
I think racist tendencies should be put aside for the moment and we should all join forces to get through this dangerous time. Scotland will get its independance one day.
Also let's face it this is a global crisis and cannot be blamed on Broon alone, even we who enjoyed the benefits of easily available credit over the years should take some of the blame. Pre-eighties most common folk wouldn't have got themselves so heavily in debt, nowadays there is no social stigma about borrowing money.
194

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 15/10/2008 11:41:34
The idea that it is the taxpayers who are bailing out the banks is farcical. As far as I see the banks are being bailed out by the issuing of government gilts at commercial rates. Basically Brown is borrowing the money to give to the banks. The taxpayers have not begun to pay for Brown's folly.

To divert his responsibilities by highlighting the crisis in Iceland, makes me wonder if he helped to engineer the crisis there, and use our terrorism laws to bring their banks down, to save Labour's bacon in Glenrothes. Has this crisis been manipulated for greater geo-political ends? No dirty trick is too dirty to save the union. It may not have been planned that way, but he is currently playing the Scotland and Iceland angle for all it is worth, ignoring the prosperity of Norway, (a more apt comparison for Scotland), and failing to acknowledge that it was two English based banks, Northern Rock and Bradford & Bingley which fell first. In any case all the banks affected are UK wide in their sharholdings and customers, and are Scottish only in their names and origins.

In drug parlance he has given the economy another shot of heroin to keep junkie UK from going through cold turkey. He has not attempted to wean us off our addiction to debt.
195

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 15/10/2008 11:41:35
The idea that it is the taxpayers who are bailing out the banks is farcical. As far as I see the banks are being bailed out by the issuing of government gilts at commercial rates. Basically Brown is borrowing the money to give to the banks. The taxpayers have not begun to pay for Brown's folly.

To divert his responsibilities by highlighting the crisis in Iceland, makes me wonder if he helped to engineer the crisis there, and use our terrorism laws to bring their banks down, to save Labour's bacon in Glenrothes. Has this crisis been manipulated for greater geo-political ends? No dirty trick is too dirty to save the union. It may not have been planned that way, but he is currently playing the Scotland and Iceland angle for all it is worth, ignoring the prosperity of Norway, (a more apt comparison for Scotland), and failing to acknowledge that it was two English based banks, Northern Rock and Bradford & Bingley which fell first. In any case all the banks affected are UK wide in their sharholdings and customers, and are Scottish only in their names and origins.

In drug parlance he has given the economy another shot of heroin to keep junkie UK from going through cold turkey. He has not attempted to wean us off our addiction to debt.
196

Darien,

Panama 15/10/2008 11:52:55
"a superhero or Flash Gordon?"

I don't think the journalist meant that as a compliment.

"The taxpayers have not begun to pay for Brown's folly." Excellent point #229. Brown has no money in the kitty to save bust banks or anything else. He is merely inventing new money (on our behalf); the rest of us will have to pay for his incompetence sooner or later.

The United Kingdom started with a bust bank and is ending the same way.
197

sid the sceptic,

PAISLEY 15/10/2008 11:54:20
guffie ba- this is a global crisis that has been caused by the US and the UK . you are correct that debt no longer has a social stigma,because brown and blair have completed the job started by thatcher the broken britian project is almost complete, our social standards are going down the pan just as fast as darling is pouring money into our banks.and as a wee bonus Mr Brown has managed to trash the scottish financial sector hence his big smiles these days.
198

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/10/2008 12:23:26
When I said Gordon Brown was a book economist I had no idea he was using "Economics for Dummies" as his reference material.
199

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

15/10/2008 12:24:50
#221 & #225:

"I would have thought the most oppressive legislation is coming from Westminster eg ID cards, survellience society, 42 days detention, using anti terror laws to eject pensions from labour party conferences, terror laws to grab iceland banks assets etc"

Which I also vehemently disagree with.

"You would rather criticise a Government who is trying to deal with a serious health hazard which causes all manner of social problems and personal tragedies..."

...by punishing and restricting the innocent. In my book, that is no better than imposing ID cards or trying to bring back internment.

Westminster protect us from MacAskill and Robison by dint of some of the laws they plan to impose being reserved matters, for instance tax on units of alcohol and the drink drive limit. Without that control, MacAskill would simply go crazy. He is a lunatic and belongs in an asylum, not a government.
200

steve52,

Kinfauns 15/10/2008 12:38:04
234#

I agree with you about MacAskill and drink laws. However one has to give him great credit for the manner in which he is trying to tackle the crisis in our Prisons. His view that some people should not be in Prison is quite correct. One case I know of, a man serving 6 months for stealing a £3 jar of coffee is costing the tax payer £900 per week. Just one such example that he sees through the gravy train that is the Prison service.

As for Dear Mr Brown. He seems to be forgetting that he has a lot to answer for and that a lot of the blame falls right on his door step.

Any way it really good to see that the Scotsman and its Labour political correspondants are doing their level best to assist Labour in their attempt to hold on to Glenrothes with their soooooo obvious bias against the SNP. I just hope all the ex. miners remember who robbed their pension fund not once but twice..
201

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 12:51:54
234

"...by punishing and restricting the innocent. In my book, that is no better than imposing ID cards or trying to bring back internment."

Innocent of what?
202

English Bob,

England 15/10/2008 12:51:55
On the contrary the banking crisis proves the case for English independence.

Home rule for England!
203

Ewan M,

15/10/2008 12:55:32
Scotland would have stared into the abyss with the RBS and HBOS bailout on Monday without beind a part of the UK. And no matter how long some people spend around this forum and the lentgh of their replies won't convince any neutral otherwise.

The only thing I would say Salmond and SNP are good at is detracting attention from failing to deliver key manifesto pledges...student loans, nursery placings, 1000 new police oh I mean retain, recruit and redploy(they made that clear in their manifesto!).
204

Alan B,

15/10/2008 12:57:29
#Alternative

While you may disagree with the alcohol proposals my point was their is far more restricitve laws coming from Westminster.

"by punishing and restricting the innocent"

2points:
1)then you will be against other alcohol restrictions
a)ban on drinking on public places.
b)licencing hours. (something that has been inherited from westminster). Personally i find that much worse than trying to get youngester to drink in pubs, preventing the trouble we do get associated with alcohol at the moment. The laws at the moment are ban it for everyone if proportionately most of the problems come from a certain age group.
c)their are already high taxes on alcohol imposed by westmister. that makes alcohol in the uk more expensive than many other european countries.

While you think it punishes the innocent. Turn that round how do you protect the innocent. What we do know is labour (and the tories before them) did not make our streets safe. How much petty vandalism is drink related. How much of the fights that the nhs and police have to deal with are drink related. How many times are people scared to go out the house because of gangs hanging around drinking and causing trouble.

The real alternative to this is to come down with a tonne of bricks on anyone that does step out of line. The problem here is the justice system is so overwhelmed at the moment, prisons massively overcrowded, serious criminals and even murders getting short sentences to free up space in prisons, that criminalising youth that step out of line with alcohol going to cost alot of money and we simply do not have the resources because of the failure to deal with these problems in the past.

So what would your solution be to the problem of youth drinking and its associated problems. Would you jail anyone getting alcohol for underage drinkers. Would you institutionalise any youngster drinking in public places. Fine the parents, stop their giros, imprison them for persistent offenses by
205

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 12:58:54
234

I dont know if the proposed legislation will have the desired effect on binge drinking or not but it has to beat the alternative of doing absolutely nothing at all.
If this legislation doesnt work then fine go on to something else instead but you cant expect a government just to sit back and not deal with such a social problem. We already have had decades of that from previous governments. The only positive step taken so far is to ban smoking in internal public areas which is working better than anticipated and is the only legislation produced by New Labour I can support. It wont stop people smoking but at least it will prevent non smokers from having to share in the delights as well.
By making it more difficult for those who binge drink in public will have the knock on desired effect for those who have to deal with the consequences who are the real innocents.
206

Alan B,

15/10/2008 13:00:13
cont..

their kids. Would u automatically evict any 19 yr old causing disturbances in his flat with parties and people pishing in the closes of other flats. How far do you go.
207

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 13:02:28
238

Like I said before all the union has to defend itself with is lies and bullsh*t and here is the proof at 238.
208

Scunner Campbell,

edinburgh 15/10/2008 13:03:12
Ewan M #238 what kind of far right political dogma are you spouting at us?
209

westview,

Feet up 15/10/2008 13:05:13
Brown drilled holes in the UK boat and now wants praise for bailing it out? He should be fired.
210

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 13:06:06
Well trolls are us have arrived and now they are going to feed each other their lines and phuq up the blog. It was nice while it lasted and some good points came out but now its all going to go bye bye.
211

Davie08,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 13:07:15
Ah me union dividend...that'll be another one thats not paying out then.
212

Alan B,

15/10/2008 13:07:58
#Ewan M

While you may consider scotland stared into an abyss with the banking crisis. Many others consider we have been in that abyss for donkeys yrs.

We had the westminster running scotland down in the 60s and 70s.

The mass unemployment of the 80s when we had masses of oil.

And we have had the economic underperformance of the last 2 decades with even a scottish chancellor scared to address in case he upsets his career ambitions and the southern electrate.

The irony of the unionist position of saying do not vote for independence we may not do very well, when we have done so badly within the union would be funny if it was not so serious or brain dead.
213

Exasperated,

Guildford 15/10/2008 13:08:13
Brown's lies are spineless & pathetic,London spivs enticed naive people into loans they couldn't afford, WHILST ACTING WITHIN THE UNION, and when it falls apart and has to be saved by our money we're told it's good because we're part of the union!! What??!! How illogical is that?? How exactly did we get in the mess Gordon? Oh yeah, buy dealing within the union & it's pathetically uncontrolled gambling.
214

The Tin Man,

15/10/2008 13:12:40
#239 Alan B

A couple of points about banning 20 year-olds from alchol off-sales:

If the burden of responsibility is placed on the shopkeeper, people in their twenties will have to provide ID, such as a passport or..... an ID card.

Logically, the burden of responsibility would be on the twenty-year-old (if you are twenty, you know full-well you are breaking the law, and are liable for the consequences, as you are not a child, although not allowed to buy a tin of beer).

So, is anyone actuallly going to be prosecuted (I would say this is unlikely)? Is it acceptable for twenty-year-olds to gain a criminal record for being caught in possesion of a tin of beer outside a pub?
215

Ewan M,

15/10/2008 13:14:15
#242 suchaparcelofrogues you being the expert in this field!Alan B ain't convincing me and don't fancy your chances of convincing anyone else. Good luck.
216

Sile,

Englands Green and Pleasant Land, run by Scottish 15/10/2008 13:22:14
214# Scotfree###From a Scottish point of view this only supports the argument for independence, as it is evident that England will always seek to deny Scotland anything but a subordinate place in the Europe and the World and will consistently work to maximise it's own advantage at Scotland’s expense##

So what part has England had in this??? the Parliament of Westminster is not England, the Men who hold the Power in that cess pit are Scottish, there is a Liebore govt because of the Scottish vote. so where has England been the cause of your Banks failure,subordinate place!! do me a favour you are talking out of your rear end..
217

The Tin Man,

15/10/2008 13:23:54
#239 Alan B

Frankly, I think that telling someone who is twenty, and may have a house, a wife, and two kids, that they can't but a tin of beer unless they go to the pub, is not really tackling binge drinking at all. I would say that it is taking the pees.
218

The Tin Man,

15/10/2008 13:33:49
#240 Spanners #239 AlanB

My apologies, AlanB, my posts should have been directed at boxospanners and his 'being seen to be doing something' argument.
219

Ugly George,

15/10/2008 13:42:01
248 Exasperated
"London spivs enticed naive people into loans they couldn't afford"

Since when was RBS run by "London spivs"?
220

The Tin Man,

15/10/2008 13:46:15
...surely If a government wanted to use legislation to reduce binge-drinking, the police would be empowered to brethalise anyone they deemed to be half-cut, with the imbiber being prosecuted for binge-drinking, if caught with a sufficiently high blood-alchol level.

We could prosecute people for being 'drunk' rather as well as 'drunk & disorderly'.

But then again, I think we all know that that would just be silly.
221

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 14:05:16
#239:

"1)then you will be against other alcohol restrictions
a)ban on drinking on public places.
b)licencing hours."

Absolutely spot on. The fact that on a sunday, we can't buy alcohol until after 12:30 is plain ridiculous---and that didn't come from Westminster, it came from the Scotland Office.

"c)their are already high taxes on alcohol imposed by westmister. that makes alcohol in the uk more expensive than many other european countries."

I agree. Which makes it even more preposterous that they are proposing even higher taxes.

"The real alternative to this is to come down with a tonne of bricks on anyone that does step out of line."

Happy with that. However, do you not agree that if the trouble makers were made to feel like idiots who couldn't handle their drink, they would be more inclined to behave in the first place? 20-30 years ago, if you got drunk and did something stupid, you would be the butt of jokes. Nowadays, you are made to feel something like a big man---and THAT is the root of the problem. It can be changed with propaganda, but it will take time. Draconian enforcement and "zero tolerance" has got us in to this mess. The only way out of it is to relax and give people responsibility for their own actions.

#236:

"Innocent of what?"

Innocent of causing trouble, puking in the street, trying to start fights, causing damage and generally behaving like a**holes. That's what.
222

puskas,

East kilbride 15/10/2008 15:04:24
After 11 years at Westminster G Brown may have helped the heavy drink culture throughout Scotland untintentionally.

Due to his incompetence as chancellor and now unelected Prime minister the unemployment figures will shoot up.. Anyone's guess where it will end...

I shall have a wee look into the future. 3,000,000 +

Money for the adults/ youth shall be tighter therefore less alcohol..

This issue I believe that can win Glenrothes for our Scottish Party, the SNP, will not be the problems within the Financial Sector.
The fallout will be the unemployment figures rising at unprecendented levels in such a short space of time.

Yes Glenrothes is not far away as Nov. 6th is nearly upon us.. In this short space of time it is quite possible we shall reach the 2,000,000 mark. Not by Xmas as the so called experts say.

* (as another poster has said the true figures have been hidden by claiments of incapacity benefit etc.)

The pro-Independence issue has been strengthened by the collapse in the banking sector..

As the days go by the corruption, deceit from unionism will increase. Of course as all nationalists already know the work ethic in the field (East End) at Glenrothes will be very important. The bias media's anti SNP slants can only be beaten by the foot-soldiers

Many good submissions on this topic from my nationalist friends. Keep up the good fight and hopefully the truth will win us the Glenrothes seat. I genuinely feel as we get closer that Labours recent actions will have a rebound and Brown is in for a shock.
Certainly out in the public domain everything looks positive for the SNP..

Brown/Darling......... Footloose and fancy free shall eventually pay by the voters ousting these unscrupulous Scots.
223

Richard Lionheart,

15/10/2008 15:13:47
Sadly it does appear true that Gordon Brown’s assertion that the financial crisis does seem to give the argument against an Independent Scotland the edge. Not however for the reasons he states, but ironically because of the severe lack of any Politicians in Scotland with the natural savvy to lead a Country.

Looking at our current batch of MSP’s other than Alex Salmond and possibly Nicola Sturgeon, there is really little other political talent available. Could we really see Iain Gray being the leader of our great country or for that matter Tavish Scott?

Then the real crunch of Gordon Brown’s argument, if we had an Independent Scotland he would have been our premier and we would undoubtedly be bankrupt.

Come to think of it who elected him as PM anyway?
224

Hey,

15/10/2008 15:24:57
#259

"Come to think of it who elected him as PM anyway?"

erm....the labour party, why?
225

Barontorc,

Paris 15/10/2008 15:35:48
Am I the only one who can see that to buy into a failing bank at rock bottom price, then to sit on the shares until they improve, then to sell them at a profit, is no more than an insider-inspired con, which only an expert at fiddling expenses could devise. Then knock-me down with a feather - but who turns up as a new Lord - the unbeloved Peter Mandellson. The only people geting ripped off is the poor taxpayer - with all its forms of taxation - the government benefits as prices rise - so does the tax take. That's why tobacco, and alcohol and gambling are not hammered in the UK - they raise huge amounts of tax. It's such a great scam that even the mighty US of A is adopting it and Bush and Co are falling over themselves to buy into banks at the dirt cheap price they are now. These smarmy UK politicos have engineered a "victory" out of a crisis by down-classing Scotland's image as a financial centre to focus all on London - well - blow-me down again - but people are fed-up to the teeth with smarty politicos and you can bet that independence is becoming much more of a reality in many minds - north of the border. A busted flush Mandy!
226

Stephen_Gash,

Carlisle England 15/10/2008 15:47:10
Stuff the UK. Independence for England
227

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 16:01:56
249

"So, is anyone actuallly going to be prosecuted (I would say this is unlikely)? Is it acceptable for twenty-year-olds to gain a criminal record for being caught in possesion of a tin of beer outside a pub?"

What a bizarre question.

It is illegal for anybody of any age to be caught in possession of marijuana.
If they make it illegal for a 20 year old to be in possession of a can of beer and he or she is caught then what difference would it make if they were caught smoking a joint instead?
Why would it be acceptable to prosecute anybody caught in possession of marijuana but not acceptable to be caught illegally in possession of a can or beer?
228

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 16:07:50
256


236:

"Innocent of what?"

Innocent of causing trouble, puking in the street, trying to start fights, causing damage and generally behaving like a**holes. That's what.

Oh ok so we should really legalise heroin and crack on the basis that not every user steals or mugs somebody for the cash to pay for their next fix.
Yes I see the logic of your argument.

The point is numbnuts that the binge drinkers who do puke up in the street, start fights, cause damage and generally make ar*eholes of themselves do it because they have been binge drinking and for no other reason.
they generally dont do these things when they are sober.
229

The Tin Man,

15/10/2008 16:12:39
#266 boxospanners

You are comparing a very stupid law with another potential very stupid law, the first of which is now particularly enforced, and the second of which is very difficult to enforce.
230

Alan B,

15/10/2008 16:30:19
#The Tin Man

I am not too bothered with binge drinking. What is binge drinking. Getting pissed. Nothing wrong with that. I also believe in personal responsiblity.

It is a very difficult area. Personally i would bring down the age someone can drink in a pub. 17 would seem a good age. When i was that age i was more concerned with getting into a pub regularly at 16/17 than drinking on the street.

The real issue is to get away from the buckie type of culture. People getting melted before going into a pub. And 18/19 yr olds getting drink for underage drinkers who will drink on the street and parks. With drink at that age in unsupervised premises it will end up with fights and vandalism etc.

I think the snp should ban off licences selling alcohol to under 20s rather than under 21. That to me seems like a better balance.

From a police point of view it must be better stopping youngsters getting alcohol than having to deal with drunk youngsters in parks and streets.

I also do not think many under 20s really will live away from home, with their own property and have a life style that involves dinner parties.

To me we have restricted alcohols sales far too much with licencing hours. Pubs close so you are pushed into clubs. If you are working late then you cannot get a bottle of wine etc from a shop despite wanting to consume it in your own house. While you can buy it during the day when you are at work and cannot get to the shops.

I also think not being able to drink in public places is very restrictive as a hot summer day and a few beers in a park, beach etc. But it has to be balanced by the rest of the yr not wanting people to fear going out the house and all the other problems.

Possibly the best way would be for the government just to let councils decide. And then it could be restricted only in areas where there are specific problems.

It is a difficult area. Having my car vandalised late at night a few times suggests it was people drunk. that t
231

Alan B,

15/10/2008 16:31:33
cont..

Having my car vandalised late at night a few times suggests it was people drunk. that tends to push you to wanting action. Also looking at my own drinking patterns at that age it used to be carried out for the bus into town on route to the pub.
232

,

15/10/2008 16:36:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
233

Rufus T. Firefly,

15/10/2008 16:50:42
INDEPENDENT Lothians MSP Margo MacDonald today launched a bid to become a member of the new boards of Scotland's two biggest banks.

Has Salmond missed a trick here?

He would be great on the board.

Whilst everybody was discussing business, he could enlist the banks to join his campaign to get Mary Queen of Scots remains back.
234

Rufus T. Firefly,

15/10/2008 16:54:21
Don't shake hands with a geordie!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7667499.stm
235

Rufus T. Firefly,

15/10/2008 17:01:07
Two things in recent days must put doubt in even the mind of a hardcore nationalist as to whether an independent Scotland would be beneficial.

1. Bailing out our two big banks would be completely beyond the SNP. We don't have a spare £30bn lying around and, leaving behind the sneers from people that enjoy seeing the rich (ex) bankers fall, it would be beyond a disaster for Scotland if RBS and HBOS went to the wall.

2. The idea of any over-promoted councillors in Holyrood leading Scotland through a global financial crisis is terrifying. Darling and Brown may not be to everyone's taste but I'm far happier at Westminster leading the country through difficult times than Salmond and his many clueless SNP buddies having control.
236

The Tin Man,

15/10/2008 17:01:26
#269 AlanB

Let's face it, if 19 year-olds are not allowed to make off-sale purchases, their 20-year-old mate will do it for them. Anyway, a bunch of 17-18 year-olds are perfectly capable of being a pain without alchol.

Local authorities already have the power to make public drinking bans, but as you say, that is a bit of an afront to people capable of behaving themselves.

Basically, if someone is causingt a breach of the peace, etc, people need to have the gumption to report it to the police, and the police need to act.

I don't think it is a matter for yet more laws. As I said, if a government want to legislate against 'binge-drinking' they should make the act of being drunk illegal, similar to drink driving. People would think that is stupid, but we have a culture of demonising teenagers, so it is acceptable to discuss the age-limit.
237

john z,

edinburgh 15/10/2008 17:02:39
Hahaha.

This, from the man who has taken twelve years to slowly but surely completely destroy the economy. Inflation up, taxes up, unemployment up, fuel prices up, house prices down. Gordon Brown, the biggest loser in Scottish history.

I've always held back from saying this, but isn't it just true;

'Labour isn't working'
238

Rufus T. Firefly,

15/10/2008 17:03:15
Surely this is the perfect time to ask how an SNP government in an independent Scotland would have dealt with the financial crisis? As far as I'm aware (and correct me if I'm wrong), Alex Salmond's contribution has been little more than his ill-informed comment in the wake of the collapse of HBOS.

In other words, nothing.

From everything I've read so far, Gordon Brown is being hailed as a saviour in many countries as they follow the British style bailout at home and people are listening to what he has to say. Like it or not, he has come out of this very well. The same can't be said of Salmond and it surely must put to rest the idea that Scotland would prosper going it alone, given our reliance on the financial sector.
239

Rufus T. Firefly,

15/10/2008 17:10:14
Alex Salmond has lost a helluva lot of credibilty in the past couple of weeks following the failure of HBOS and RBS.

His attack on spivs and speculators was designed to do one thing and that was to place the blame for the Scottish Bank failures firmly at the door of the South East of England, the City and London's wealth.

Of course this backfired on him when, following analysis, it transpired that it was the banks' very own spivs and apeculators that caused much the fall due to their irresponsible risk taking.

The scariest part of all is that every other party leader at Holyrood seemed to swallow all of Salmond's bullshine hook line and sinker. It seemed to be a case that "Well Alex used to be a banker, he must know what he is on about".

Bizarrely it was Wendy Alexander who took apart Alex' rants and raves in the chamber but this did not get much coverage owing to the fact that the entire press corp think the sun shines out of Salmond ass and that Wendy is a torn faced wee nyaff (this may be true but she certainly demonstrated a greater awareness of the broader problem than Alex and his "Its no fair, as ususal the greedy Londoners are trying to shaft us Scots again".

Salmond's one approach is to prey on the insecurities of Scots and their need to blame somebody else (i.e. England) for all our failings and shortcomings. He will tell the country any old garbage if he thinks it will get him his dying wish. But, not before time he's landed on his ass and with a bit of luck that is where he will be until the next Holyrood election.

Monday on Newsnight Scotland's pathetic attempt to analyse the financial crisis, he looked like a fish out of water. He does not know what caused the problem let alone what the solution is. He waffled and garbled some utter carp without answering one of Glen Campbell's weak questions - Christ can you imagine if a half knowledgable presenter had got a hold of him?
240

The Tin Man,

15/10/2008 17:14:10
#272 Rufus

Give Salmond his due - he did say his administration would have done the same, but earlier, given the oppertunity.

The main point of note is that the SNP have never stood-up and said that something must be done about the banking system, in the past, so presumably they were happy with the existing system.
241

Home Rule for England,

England 15/10/2008 17:14:38
I've just listened to Alex Salmond on BBC News 24. He sounded convincing to me, comparing Scotland to Norway and the Republic of Ireland. If I was Scottish and I had to choose between Brown and Salmond or between Salmond and any other politician I would vote for Salmond every time!
242

The Tin Man,

15/10/2008 17:17:49
...Mind you, no-one else did, either. Banking crises never seem to be pre-empted.
243

The Tin Man,

15/10/2008 17:21:58
#275 Home Rule

As EU citizens, we are all perfectly entitled to go and live in Ireland, and it is probably a good time to buy a house there.
244

Rufus T. Firefly,

15/10/2008 17:23:14
Because the banks were saved by UK taxpayer's money. The good people of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland came together in a crisis (led by two Scotsmen) and saved the Scottish bank's sorry asses. It hard to see how this could have been done if Scotland were no longer part of The Union. The banks would have folded doing tremendous damage to Scotland's economy and reputation for decades to come. Quite simply it would have been a disaster.
245

Rufus T. Firefly,

15/10/2008 17:25:26
Tin Man would you really want to buy a house in a country that does not have postcodes?
246

The Tin Man,

15/10/2008 17:33:16
#279 Rufus

Sounds good to me.
247

A_Scottish_Voice,

15/10/2008 18:31:19
I find Gordon Browns comments that his bail of the Scottish banks is an argument to maintain the union as very disturbing.

Gordon Brown and his government are almost without question fully responsible for the demise of these banks, by allowing them to run riot with their lending and letting the City use measures to profit by betting against the banks.

To sit there and try to take credit for this so called solution, and say how this is o so good for Scotland and the union, has resonance of Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy.

I believe this man is clinical insane.
248

Alan B,

15/10/2008 18:39:34
#273 Rufus

If your analysis was true why did Brown and Bush both ban short selling until January.

What we have found from this crisis is Brown is very slow to act. It is difficult to assess Salmond as he has not been in the position of power. Although he does seem to understand the crisis and is much more sure footed than Brown. Brown has been far too slow to act dithering his way through the crisis.

Furthermore Brown is the reason for much of this crisis making any global situation much worse with his economic incompetence.

It is Brown that allowed huge public sector deficits in good time so that we have limited scope for action when things turn sour.

It is brown that failed to control house price inflation that lead to the silly mortages and huge personal debt.

It was Brown who changed the regulatory framework which so spectacularly failed.

So Browns general economic competence is in the toilet somewhere.

In dealing with this crisis

-he was slated for his dithering over northern rock.

- he dithered about recapitalising the banks. We can critise the other party leaders but only brown is in a position to really know what is going on with the banks via his own regulatory framework. While you slag salmond for not being aware of some of the underlying problems with the bank, you omit that the FSA - browns regulatory body was saying everything was fine and the banks were stable and well capitalised.

-he dithered about banning short selling and then banned it after hbos collapsed.

- dithered pumping liquidity into the market again until after hbos announced its problems.

All in all we do not really know how well the other parties would have handled this crisis. But what we do know is labour have been a joke and Brown should resign as he is clearly not up to it.

249

Alan B,

15/10/2008 18:43:44
Brown knew the state of the banks via his regulatory body and the BOE.

The question he needs to ask is why he let the whole thing sink into such a mess and did not act last year after nothern rock to recapitalise the banks.

250

Dave,

Western Isles 15/10/2008 18:43:45
So Broon offers UK tax payers cash as a lending backdrop to a couple of banks by way of kick starting the lending that goes on between banks.

The conditions attached are that there is a board room clear out and every time the banks use the cash, they are charged a fee (a win win sitaution for us).

This simple process has turned into A)a bank buyout (which it isn't) and B) proof independence couldn't work due to two Scottish banks being "bailed out".

These banks are simply not Scottish. The RBS is the 2nd biggest in the UK and Europe and 5th in the World. It is a global institution. It just happened to have headquarters in Scotland.

Given thier size and wealth in the UK, the "English tax payers" are NOT bailing out Scotland but are in fact bailing themselves out too as well as many other that bank with the RBS and RBS owned banks accross the globe.

However, Broon is happy to allow the media deception to carry on.

Smokes and mirrors and lies. I hope the good folks of Glenrothes send a powerful message to Labour and vote anybody but Labour for the lies and deception and media portrayal as saviours.
251

dude,

wishaw 15/10/2008 18:51:02
Saw that interview last night on newsnight, it was enough to make you puk, that man is a disgrace.

How can he have the cheek after all that has been going on sit there coming out with 'its no time to be party political' and then go on to do just that, the gloves are off Alex go get him.
252

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 21:21:16
288

The Scottish taxpayer wouldnt have to bail out UK banks only Scottish ones. Why would Scottish tax payers have to bail out UK banks?
And why wouldnt an Independent Scotland be able to bail out its banks with borrowed money in the same way everybody else is bailing their banks out including the UK?
And why are you always so full of sh*t?

And the biggest tyrants in world history has to be the English and their creation of the biggest empire in world history.
And the fact that up until now they have had to be forcefully removed from all the other nations in the said empire lets hope that dismal disgraceful antisocial undemocratic record is not continued in our case eh?
253

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 15/10/2008 22:34:18
Whilst we can all debate why we are in this mess the fact is Mr Broon is right in this respect - an independent country of Scotlands size that relies so heavily on the financial services sector simply could not have afforded this bail out.

So the truth hurts and all sensible gNATS will have to face up to the harsh reality that we sensible types always did recognise the true benefits being part of the UK ultimately bring.

Now go back to your holes in the ground and prepare for permanent opposition again!
254

Blarney,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 23:41:19
Why would an Independent Scotland rely on a financial sector?
Why could Scotland not borrow money from the european central bank or whoever, just like Brown; to bail out banks that have been badly mismanaged?
Why would Scotland not be able to pay that money back to the bank that it borrowed from?
Why is Irelands banks not closing down?
How could their government step in so early and guarantee all savings?
No, you are right, Scotland is pathetic and could not do anything that the other samll country's do.
255

Blarney,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 23:42:04
Oh yes Irelands in a recession, they admit it. So are we, but Brown won't admit it.
256

,

15/10/2008 23:42:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
257

Fred Forsythe (not the),

England 16/10/2008 00:28:45
This may delay Scottish independence.
I wouldn't mind giving Scotland a few bob if it was for a state funeral for their men in Westminster.
258

Lauwrie,

18/10/2008 16:33:42
"Brown:Banking crisis has proved case for the Union"

er no


it has proved the case for a confederal United Kingdom with the two principle members of the Union ie England and Scotland running their own affairs, own budgets, own parliaments, own ministers
and only uniting under the British flag for foreign affairs, defence and various clearcut "British "issues eg perhaps energy supply.

After all that is what the majority of the population of Scotland, inluding the unionist Scots, wanted before 1707
( and achieved in 1641 and 1654-9 ! )

and what the English would most certainly want now of they ever get the chance to make thier collective wish know via referendum on an English parliament.

 

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