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Barnett formula could split UK, says the man himself

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Published Date: 29 January 2009
THE man behind the financial formula that results in Scotland getting £1,600 more per head than England yesterday warned it could result in the break-up of the UK.
Lord Barnett told a new investigation into his 30-year-old formula for distributing government expenditure that it was dangerous and unfair.

He said the system had created a situation where an "astute politician" at Holyrood could use Scotland's
extra cash to adopt policies such as scrapping prescription charges or student fees – which the SNP has done – and create jealousy and resentment among English voters.

He suggested this could encourage people in Berwick and Manchester to believe that life was better in Scotland.

Lord Barnett, who devised the formula that has taken his name while he was Chief Secretary to the Treasury in the Wilson and Callaghan governments of 1974-9, said he had pressed for a Lords' investigation because of the disparity in funding between nations.

He told fellow peers yesterday: "I was worried that the formula will so upset people in England that they will demand a separation which, in my view, will be hugely damaging, as I have no wish to see the UK split into three separate countries.

"I thought it didn't seem fair and therefore should be reviewed, with a view to seeing what changes were needed and what these changes should be."

Lord Barnett said the formula, which is loosely based on population to grant Scotland 10 per cent of any increase (or decrease) in government spending in England, had seen the funding gap increase from £1,100 per head in 2002-3 to £1,600 in 2007-8.

He said the reason the formula had survived for 30 years was that "nobody wanted to change it for fear of upsetting the electors in those areas". He said it was only ever intended as a "short-term measure" and described it as a "purely simplistic method of allocating expenditure".

But he denied it was linked to the rise in SNP support in the late 1970s or proposals for a Scottish Assembly.

Asked if it was successful, he said: "Successive governments over 30 years have kept it going. I don't think it's successful. I don't think it's fair. It can't be fair with this kind of gap."

He said: "There is a risk, if something isn't done … the people of England will get more and more upset and demand the very things they can get in Scotland."

Lord Barnett told the House of Lords Select Committee, whose members include former Scottish Secretaries Michael Forsyth and Ian Lang, that his system was only intended to to help him avoid battles with Cabinet colleagues seeking extra money for their areas.

He said it only came to be regarded as a "formula" after the Thatcher and Major governments kept it in place. He said: "I thought it might last a year or two before the government decided to change it."

Lord Barnett sidestepped a query on whether the formula was appropriate as a means of determining funding for devolved administrations, saying: "That is a big, big question."

FACT BOX

THE Barnett formula defines the share of extra spending approved by Whitehall.

It is loosely based on population and means that 85 per cent of extra spending goes to England, 10 per cent to Scotland and 5 per cent to Wales. Northern Ireland has always been classed as a special case because of the Troubles. A report last year by the IPPR think-tank claimed that Scotland got more than its fair share of UK government spending: £5,676 per person in 2007-8, 21 per cent above the UK average. However, it also showed that London was the biggest winner from the formula. The SNP says Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK as a result of North Sea oil.



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 28 January 2009 11:37 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: The union
 
1

webwise,

Scotland 28/01/2009 22:49:16
Dear oh dear!!

"He said the system had created a situation where an "astute politician" at Holyrood could use Scotland's extra cash to adopt policies such as scrapping prescription charges or student fees – which the SNP has done – and create jealousy and resentment among English voters."

Scotland contributes more than it gets back.

Let's go over that again:
Scotland contributes more than it gets back.

There, now independence would end this nonsense once and for all.
2

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28/01/2009 23:08:17
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28/01/2009 23:19:05
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For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 29/01/2009 00:12:27
It's rather funny seeing the words "FACT BOX" as a heading in a Unionist paper. You've never bothered with them before, so why now?? But there again, you did get two fact right:
London is the biggest winner from the formula, and
Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK with Scotland's Oil.

The only use Westminster has for an Oil Fund is when there is an election near. So they can throw out a few shiny bead to buy votes; pay the expenses of English MP's to come up and campaign in Scottish Elections; allow Maggie Broon to ensure the Fife vote by buying a round of drinks in his "local".
5

karin.m,

29/01/2009 00:16:03
4 aye whats that about? is it a look we promise we didnt make this bit up even though we did. as for the article should the headline not say
"peer admits he made up a policy not based on scienitifc evidence or proper accounting but on danger and unfairness in order to win votes."
6

karin.m,

29/01/2009 00:19:30
i mean how can you make up a policy say i didnt expect it to last this long mate i was working off the back of a fag packet pal and then say yeah i know it was my idea guv but its dangerous and unfair.

UNFAIR i will tell you whats unfair matey giving us this guff and expecting us to swallow it.
7

Westfield Bairns,

Vote SNP for a better future 29/01/2009 00:26:35
The UK is already finished. Scotland never voted for any UK at any stage, its as unwanted now as it was 300 years ago
8

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29/01/2009 00:27:26
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frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/01/2009 00:37:41
#753, sm753.

Spoken like a true goldfish.

You're not normally so koi, are you?
16

cynicalm,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 01:01:41
Unless one is seeking to end the Union, the "Barnet formula" is at least some way of acknowledging that Scotland does not equate tp an English region.
17

Embra Don,

29/01/2009 01:19:35
"Barnett formula could split UK"
Good!
18

Embra Don,

29/01/2009 01:24:18
"Fact-Box" appears to base its facts on a "think tank"'s claims. Must be true then - its in the paper.
19

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29/01/2009 01:33:31
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 sm753,

29/01/2009 07:01:56
Oh dear, it appears someone didn't like my pointing out how poorly researched this article is at #2.

"It is loosely based on population and means that 85 per cent of extra spending goes to England, 10 per cent to Scotland and 5 per cent to Wales."

As is easily available from e.g. the Treasury and Calman websites, the Barnett population ratios are:

Scotland 10.08%
Wales 5.84%
NI 3.43%

...of England's population.

Which translates, at the moment, to Scotland getting more than enough public spending to use up even a geographic share of the (declining) oil & gas revenue.

It is not sustainable, and notions of replacing oil & gas with a "green energy powerhouse" are a pipe dream.

What is needed are policies to reduce our dependence on the public sector and subsidies, and encourage private investment.

Clearly separatism - with increased uncertainty and raised barriers between us and our main market - is NOT the answer.

23

 sm753,

http://nat-mythbusting.blogspot.com/ 29/01/2009 07:06:47
19

"He decided to sow the seeds for seperation when he and Mc Crone conspired to keep Scotlands wealth and the amount of oil a secret."

Ahahaha. That old peanut. This one is coming up at Nationalist Mythbusting.

How does one (whether Labour or Conservative) keep the "wealth and the amount of oil a secret" when one, er, refers openly and explicitly to it in one's election manifesto?

http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/area/uk/man.htm

Never mind. Keep the conspiracy theories coming.
24

john z,

edinburgh 29/01/2009 07:25:21
Jeez, thirty years of FREE oil and gas from Scotland, and the english are still whinging.

I have a simple solution, Independence. Then we no longer have to go on bended knee to england to ask for some of our own money back.

The way Barnett and some other people in england talk, you would think people and businesses don't pay any tax. The reality is, that Scotland pays its way.

If the english think we get too much, then time for independence. Then we can sell our oil and gas to them.


25

Jimmy Le Pie,

29/01/2009 07:32:36
"Barnett formula could split UK,"

Excellent, when will that be then???
26

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 07:38:54
Heres a thought. Increase funding per head in England.

Oh, they have already. It's called the Olympics......
27

john z,

edinburgh 29/01/2009 07:39:40
24

The wealth and oil of Scotland is STILL being kept a secret. Consider, Brown talks about going abroad to meet oil producers, yet no mention of the fact that WE ourselves are an oil producer. The oil output of Scotland is just never talked about - it is like an 'unspeakable' thing.

The oil affetcs not just the balance sheet of the country, but the balance of payments and the overall strength of the economy. By purely looking at the actual revenue, you fail to percieve the significance of oil output on an economy.

It actually beggars belief that we Scots have been giving all our oil to england for free for the last thirty years. THAT, is why the politicians in London don't talk about its value to the economy very often.

Fact is, the oil is believed to last for another 40 to 100 years, but just you try getting anybody in Westminster to admit to that. Daily production often equals that of Kuwait.

Fact is, the english union is a hindrance to Scottish growth, with Scots taxpayers footing the bill for the new heathrow runway, the renovation of St.Pancras station, subsidising the London Underground, paying for the NEW Wemberly,,.... and so on.

The list is nearly endless of the amount of Scottish money being squandered in the South East of England.

The simplest solution for Scottish finances is independence. I'm not sure why so many in england use the media day in and day out to manipulate news stories in an effort to make Scots feel they cannot survive as an independent nation.

The internet and access to hidden reports like McCrone, now let Scottish people see beyond the english controlled media.

Forget Barnett, or quangos or special committees, just give Scotland independence. Then england can manage its own affairs, and Scotland can manage its own affairs.
28

jtdx,

29/01/2009 07:52:29
#28 just give shetland independence and then see how much oil is left for scotland
29

Ewan Randall,

29/01/2009 07:58:00
Shouldn’t we all support the abolition of this corrupt formula which disproportionately gives London so much?
30

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 08:01:26
john z
If you are going to put forward an argument at least make sure that you are aware of the facts. Your tirade is littered with false assertions.

You repeat the erroneous comment that North Sea oil production equals that of Kuwait. It does not - nothing like it as you will see if you check the International Energy Agency figures. What somebody has done is to take the total hydrocarbon production of the UK - oil, natural gas liquids and gas (including gas off the East and West coasts of England), convert it into "oil eqivalent" and then compare it to the production of oil only in Kuwait. Total UK oil production is actually less than that of Angola.

Also oil may last 40 more years but nobody is predicting that it will last for that long with current production levels which have been declining since 1999. The only dispute is over the rate of the decline.

Also no taxpayers money went into the construction of the new Wembley. The new runway at Heathrow is being built by BAA which is a private company now Spanish owned. Once again no taxpayers money is involved. The recent fuss has been over the granting of planning permission - not taxpayers funding.

These are just some examples of your lack of awareness. It is patently obvious that you have launched into a tirade without knowing what you are talking about.

31

Ewan Randall,

29/01/2009 08:02:23
Why shouldn't the Shetlands be allowed to claim independence if the people of the Shetlands want it?

If it is right that Scotland should have independence when the people of Scotland wish it to happen then isn't it right that places like the Shetlands should have the same chances too?
32

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 08:03:34
32

True. After all, they are still part of Norway....
33

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29/01/2009 08:06:51
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34

 sm753,

29/01/2009 08:10:46
28

"It actually beggars belief that we Scots have been giving all our oil to england for free for the last thirty years."

It actually beggars belief that some of us Scots are unable to grasp that, in return, Scotland has had better per capita public spending and political representation for the last thirty years.

"The internet and access to hidden reports like McCrone"

How does a "report" written in 1974 and containing over-optimistic forecasts for 1980 have any relevance today?
35

Nevsky;,

Moscow 29/01/2009 08:22:15
sm753#

Are you really under the belief that if Scotland had gained independence when the oil was coming on-stream that Scotland would be worse off today as compared to the current situation?

Time for a bit of honesty surely? I think oil is only 20% of what has been lost, what would have been more important is 30 years of investment into Scotland's infrastructure.

Norway went from one of the poorest to the richest country in Europe virtually from scratch and will continue to be.

Oil divided by 6 million or 5 million which would you prefer?

36

Nevsky;,

Moscow 29/01/2009 08:22:32
37

60 million.
37

 sm753,

http://nat-mythbusting.blogspot.com/ 29/01/2009 08:34:17
37

"if Scotland had gained independence when the oil was coming on-stream "

It didn't, so the question is irrelevant.

What matters now is that even the current level of oil & gas revenue is more than balanced by spending, and the oil & gas is in irreversible decline.

The electorate has had the position on oil put before it in every election since February 1974, and "independence" has been rejected every time.

Wonder why?
38

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 08:50:47
39

That's not entirely true. I seem to recall a secret dossier made around the time of the oil boom that expressed that Scotland could do very well out of the North Sea and could be independent.

This document was only released last year under FOI, at a time when we had reached peak output.
39

Nevsky;,

Moscow 29/01/2009 08:54:50
39 sm#

Only irrelevant if you are a unionist because if you agree then you also admit that in not taking independence Scotland made a huge mistake for the development of the country.

Your unconditional acceptance of the union has cost every Scot but thankfully it looks like full fiscal autonomy after the next election so we will see what happens and how 'in decline' the oil money is.
40

Spoot,

Third rock pool on the left 29/01/2009 08:58:20
#35

"... some of us Scots ..." Would that be us Scots in the same way that that the Blessed Margaret Thatcher famously used the phrase "we in Scotland" throughout a television interview?
41

David Norris,

Fife 29/01/2009 08:58:40
Erm, what an ignorant man. Arent there fourparts of the United Kingdom:

Scotland
Wales
England
Northern Ireland.

The basket case nationalists (courtesy of Blair and deviolution) may want to break up the UK but the majority of the population wish to remain British.

Just think what extra cost we have for pseudo politicians at Holyrood and all the costs of the new building. The most overgoverned part of the UK.
42

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 09:03:11
43

Nope, only 3 parts. The last part is ..And Northern Ireland (the most subsidised part of the UK)
43

Grant,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 09:10:59
#32 Should the people of the island of Unst not be given the opportunity of independence from Shetland in that case - thus depriving the rest of Shetland from any oil around it?

I'm sure if Scotland is divisible, then Shetland is too?

#34 Wouldn't Caithness and Aberdeenshire not have a great claim than Orkney which IIRC doesn't have any fields surrounding it

Endless possibilities.

44

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 09:12:51
I think we need to have a greater level of maturity over this whole Barnett Formula/oil argument. The fact is that public expenditure is very high in Scotland due to the Barnett Formula.

Could oil revenues compensate for the Barnett Formula? Very doubtful. Analysis done by various bodies and the Scottish govt themselves indicate that there has been continual deficit in the Scottish fiscal position for each of the last 5 years even if a "geographical" share of revenues is allocated to Scotland.

And oil production is declining with nobody expecting the decline to be reversed. The only disagreement is over the rate of the decline with production becoming more and more dependent on small fields which are difficult and expensive to exploit. This will obviously impact on revenues. There may be the odd good year when a spike in the oil price leads to higher revenues but experience has shown us that these spikes tend to be short lived.

It would appear, therefore, that it would be a very risky strategy (to say the least) to bank on oil revenues funding the high level of public spending in Scotland. So is the high level of public spending sustainable?
45

Grant,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 09:13:56
http://www.ukooa.co.uk/education/images/fields.gif

Yup, I think Eastern Scotland (mainland) has a very strong case.
46

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 09:18:07
45 Grant
The argument about the Shetlands is not as silly as it may appear. They, as we know, have not always been part of Scotland. Is there any reason why they could not opt for the same status as the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man.

If you look at the BERR map of the allocation of mineral rights in the sea, you will see a line drawn round the Isle of Man indicating that they have the rights to this area.
47

Grant,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 09:24:49
The area around Edinburgh was not always part of Scotland either. The Outer Hebrides only became part of Scotland in 1266 under the Treaty of Perth and so on.

I'm not suggesting that it is a completely impossible scenario (although extremely unlikely) that the islands may leave Scotland, but in reality they are essentially no more of a special case than any other part of Scotland.

The extrapolation of that argument is that if Shetland was to split from Scotland, then Unst and Yell could equally split from Shetland - and given the mistrust that exists in Shetland's Outer Islands for the Shetland Mainland - who knows?

48

 sm753,

http://nat-mythbusting.blogspot.com/ 29/01/2009 09:26:14
40

"That's not entirely true. I seem to recall a secret dossier made around the time of the oil boom"

Yes, that IS entirely true.

The oil production forecasts contained in the McCrone paper had been made public in ministerial statements by the Heath government, and were referred to in the Conservative manifestos of February and October 1974.

Fact. Forthcoming at Nationalist Mythbusting.

It would be helpful if anyone had a source for the SNP manifestos for the 1974 elections.

"This document was only released last year under FOI, at a time when we had reached peak output."

The McCrone paper was released in 2005.

Peak oil production was 1999.
49

Ewan Randall,

29/01/2009 09:30:40
Do the people of the most ancient areas of Scotland, and those of the islands, believe they will be treated any better by the faceless bureaucrats at Holyrood after independence than they already do?
50

Grant,

29/01/2009 09:34:09
#50 Oil production levels have a lesser impact on oil revenues than any of the following (a)prevailing oil prices (b)taxation regimes (c)regulatory considerations. The main determinant of revenues is primarily (a) assisted by (b). For the UK peak oil production occurred in 1999, but revenues were much, much higher in 2008 than 1999.
51

 sm753,

29/01/2009 09:35:02
41

"in not taking independence Scotland made a huge mistake for the development of the country."

No, because you have no idea what else happened in this imaginary "independent in 1974" universe.

Was the level of North Sea investment the same as in reality or lower because companies were frightened off by a left-wing separatist government?

What happened elsewhere in the economy?

What happened in the international scene? There was this thing called the "Cold War" going on. Did "independent" Scotland become neutral, or even a Soviet semi-satellite?

The elecorate had all the facts they needed about oil in 1974 and made their decision accordingly. All this whining about "secret reports" is just sour grapes 35 years after the event.
52

Grant,

Scotland 29/01/2009 09:35:04
#51 Do the people of Scotland, and the ancient Kingdoms of England still want to be believe they will be treated any better by the faceless bureaucrats at Westminster after independence than they already do?
53

 sm753,

29/01/2009 09:42:06
52

"Oil production levels have a lesser impact on oil revenues than any of the following (a)prevailing oil prices (b)taxation regimes (c)regulatory considerations."

True, and you can add in exchange rates, inflation rates and assumptions made thereof, all of which makes it practically impossible to compare McCrone's 1974 financial forecasts for 1980 with outturn.

The only firm ground to stand on is the physical production numbers, which were public.

No-one "lied about" or "covered up" how much oil was there.

Fact.
54

Grant,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 09:43:15
#55 What happens to Orkney and Shetland when the Outer Isles of Yell and Unst secede from them, taking their oil with them, while Scotland continues to benefit from its oil located off the east coast of Scotland as per the locations of the major oil fields located at #47?

55

Grant,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 09:51:10
#58 Indeed, then there shouldn't be any problem with allocating a geographical share of such revenues to Scotland over the course of the last 35 or so years.

Indeed the Government will always have done this in the last 35 or so years if this was the case. Which they've done haven't they?

So yes, you are absolutely right sm753 and I completely concur.
56

 sm753,

29/01/2009 09:56:35
60

"#58 Indeed, then there shouldn't be any problem with allocating a geographical share of such revenues to Scotland over the course of the last 35 or so years.

Indeed the Government will always have done this in the last 35 or so years if this was the case. Which they've done haven't they?"

No they haven't.

As far as I know the only attempt has been Kemp & Stephen (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Economy/17858/ScotShareNorthSeaRevenue),

which only goes back as far as 2000.

If you look at the paper you'll see there's actually quite a lot of work involved.
57

 sm753,

29/01/2009 09:58:27
58

"No-one "lied about" or "covered up" how much oil was there.

Fact."

(What a guy!)

For example:

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1973/oct/23/north-sea-oil#S5CV0861P0_19731023_CWA_272

C Deb 23 October 1973 vol 861 cc488-9W 488W

"§ Mr. Sillars

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what are his latest estimates of the output from North Sea oil by 1980.

§ Mr. Tom Boardman

The report on production and reserves of oil and gas on the United Kingdom Continental Shelf which I presented to Parliament in May forecast a most likely range of oil production in 1980 of 70 million-100 million tons. Recent discoveries should ensure that the lower end of this range is reached; with further discoveries in the next year or two it should be exceeded."

1980 outturn was 80.5.
58

 sm753,

29/01/2009 10:08:51
63


""The SNP says Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK as a result of North Sea oil".

We knew this all the time."

Yes, we know they say it.

We also know they're wrong.
59

P Rayner.,

Latin America . 29/01/2009 10:09:05
If the English accessed these pages in number I am positive the drive for Englands independence would become real . However ill thought out these contributions , with their hate filled anti English sentiment , are in the main simply self indulgent and nasty . Someone stupidly commented recently that altruism was the driving force for Scottish independence . To me the evidence suggests that oil is the driving force . What an irony if when the oil is no more England declares its indepence ! Its likely then that Scotland will become a desert , in abject poverty , split from coast to coast by factional loathing and fighting . Be very what you wish for .
60

P Rayner.,

Latin America. 29/01/2009 10:11:03
This lousy keyboard .Independence . Careful .
61

Ewan Randall,

29/01/2009 10:12:49
(#54) – (Grant) – What do you believe the peoples living in the ancient areas of Scotland, and the isles and islands, along with those of the ancient areas of England, will think on the prospects of Scotland becoming independent and the chances they might be treated any better by the faceless bureaucrats at Holyrood and Westminster?

Do you believe those in Scotland see themselves being dealt with any better than they do now?
62

noswod,

Honestas 29/01/2009 10:22:37
Maybe the era of free money to Scotland is cominmg to an end and the next UK parliament will see the end of Scotalnds Barrnet Bonanza. Scotalnd has been overfunded since the 1920's, this has had evident social and economic benefits but it has created a massive dependancy culture amongst the Scots who see it as thier right for free higher education, totally free healthcare and free social largest, without the considerable higher taxes and long term social and economic polices than are employed in Holland and Scandanvia to achieve the goal of an egalitrian society. The Scottish labour party got this in one and they realised the best strategy was to keep your heed doon and bank the cash for new hospitals, council houses public works the last thing they wanted was a system of Government that may make them accountable to an electorate. But the SNP - bull in a China shop like the team that went doon to Argentina individually brillant but collectively a shambles, only playing as a team when it was too late. It may be too late for Scotland to keep the secret of the additional £1,600 per head we get from the rest of the UK to prevent the next UK Government reforming the whole system and lobbing off somewhere between £4bn -£7bn from the Scottish budget. What an achivement by the SNP.
63

Ugly George,

29/01/2009 10:31:53
63 JayTeeDee
"However, it also showed that London was the biggest winner from the formula"

This is a spurious argument frequently put forward in response to the high level of public spending in Scotland - they say that it is the same or higher in London. But that is not a valid comparison for obvious reasons.

Many people who work in both public and private sector jobs in London live in the surrounding counties of the south-east of England. So they may be employed in London but use the services (doctors, schools etc.) in Surrey, Kent or some other county. The studies show that while per capita public expenditure is high in London, it is very low in the surrounding south east. If you average out the per capita spending between London and the south east you get a figure which is very much lower than that for Scotland.

Check the data for yourself and you will see that this is the case.
64

Ewan Randall,

29/01/2009 10:45:53
If it is right that what those who wish to follow the path to independence are saying about the Barnett formula, that its purpose was to attempt to stop the push towards independence, then shouldn’t it also be the case that all followers of the independence trail should be on here asking for it to be abolished as soon as possible?
65

Lianachan,

Highlands 29/01/2009 11:05:42
I don't much care what breaks up the UK, so long as it's done.
66

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 11:12:40
72 JayTeeDee
I din't know if your comments are addresed to me or sm753. You seemed to have got them mixed up.

As far as higher public spending as a requirement to deal with remote areas is concerned, I suppose that many would say that is reasonable. I was not passing any judgement on the situation - merely trying to ensure that people are fully aware of some aspects.
67

Ewan Randall,

29/01/2009 11:13:53
Apart from at times of recession, which makes more money for the treasury, the city in London or the oil and gas fields off of Scotland’s coast?

Again apart from when in recession, which would be missed if removed, money made by the city in London or the revenue made from the oil and gas fields off of Scotland’s coast?

Is the revenue from oil and gas a subsidy or just extra cash when there is no recession?
68

Ewan Randall,

29/01/2009 11:21:27
(#73) – (Lianachan) – Why do short bread nationalist like yourself speak while inserting an illogical boot into their mouths?

What about a devastating outbreak of some kind of plague or other virus, would that be a beneficial method of dividing up the UK?
69

Edward,

29/01/2009 11:26:52
Saw the interview on tv of Mr Barnett himself,as usual the interviewer concentrated on the amount per head thats given to Scotland, not once was the question put as to how much Scotland actually contributes.
The fact that the media, especailly the 'unbiased'(sic) BBC tend to ignore is the fact that Scotland actgually contribute more than it gets handed back!
70

salmondella,

UK 29/01/2009 11:28:20
#73 As long as you actually mean the break of the British state -ie the capatilist system, I am right with you there. Lets have a socialst federation of our four countries with self determination at the heart of decisions - or is this too radical for you?
71

Lianachan,

Highlands 29/01/2009 11:34:06
#76 You know precisly nothing about the nature of my desire for an independent Scotland, or, indeed, me at all.

Not that I owe you any kind of explanation of my original comment, but you may note I said I don't "much" care. This obviously excludes your Doomsday scenarios, and things like England being ripped up and thrown into outer space.
72

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 11:38:03
Edward
"ignore is the fact that Scotland actgually contribute more than it gets handed back"

Your assertion is contradicted by research done on behalf of the Taxpayers Alliance. This research stated that total oil/gas revenues (not just Scotland's "geographical" share) was greater than the extra funding through the Barnett formula in only 5 of the last 23 years.

Also, according to the SNP govt's own analysis, Scotland contributes a smaller prportion of UK (non oil revenue) taxation than its population proportion (8.3% as opposed to 8.5%)

73

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 11:39:51
82 JayTeeDee
Which study and which reports have been buried by the media?
74

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 11:41:55
79 salmondella
What socialist measures would you like to see introduced?
75

TWC,

29/01/2009 11:46:51
I tell full fiscal autonomy puts everybody's gas at a peep.

Scotland collects all it's own money and agrees payment to London for Defence and whatever else Scoptland AGREES with Westminster.

Rest assured if this was not in Scotlands favour we would have it by now, but remember it is the power over spend as much as the money itself that is important.
76

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 12:07:09
Has it never occurred to the people of Berwick and Manchester that, for the past 10 years, the Scottish Government has simply had different priorities from their politicians, and spent the Scottish share of Barnet on more important public services?

Recent economic data shows that: "Stand alone England, taking into account its disparate nine Regions,
is still one of the wealthiest nations in the world.
Six of the 9 English Regions, especially London and the South-East of England, compare favourable with many of the highest performing economic areas in North America, Europe, and the Pacific Rim."
(Source OECD)
77

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 12:50:42
87 jayTeeDee
Bit of a cop out surely. I am qoting from published research by/for the Taxpayers Alliance and Oxford Economics. What is the source of your study?
78

 sm753,

29/01/2009 12:54:41
90 UG

The Taxpayer Alliance report you cite is at:

http://tpa.typepad.com/home/files/unequal_shares_the_barnett_formula.pdf

...and the chart showing the sustained deficit (even with a geographic share of NS revenue) is on p14.

The only surplus years were 85/86, 86/87, 87/88, 05/6 and (just) 06/7.
79

salmondella,

UK 29/01/2009 12:58:01
#85 with pleasure;

nationalisation of the banks under workers control and management -and the same for all our key industries and services. Bosses to be given the chance to work alongside the workers who know best for the running of their companies and workplaces.

communities to run their own affairs at a local level.

All MP's to be on a skilled workers wage - no perks.

all adult citizens to contribute to society according to needs and ability otherwise they will not be supported.

A socialist federation of GB/Ireland and Europe with a planned socialist society

an end to the house of lords and patronage

no to nationalism -yes to internationalism

an end to imperialist wars - lead by example and religious division will gradually be eliminated.

-a massive injection of public works to create a safe environment and life style

Utopian? -well then it is utopian to think that the present system will ever save the planet.

We would also allow the Hibees to win the Scottish Cup - well now that really is utopian.



80

BorderLineScottish,

29/01/2009 13:38:46
Those chips on the shoulders are starting to get bigger and bigger. There are some sensible people giving sensible arguments on here.

There are also some very bitter, anti-English bigots as well as the usual "exiles" who contribute absolutely nothing to the Scottish economy who take delight in commenting from afar.

Bring on Independence and let's have done with all this stupid bickering! Then let us see who swims and who sinks.
81

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 13:58:52
92 salmondella

Was Trotsky a Hibee as well.
82

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/01/2009 14:12:05
"Barnett formula could split UK, says the man himself"

Excellent !
83

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/01/2009 14:15:15
68 noswod

Do you also agree that London is overfunded?
84

Nevsky;,

Moscow 29/01/2009 15:41:55
Unionists are subsidy junkies. Scotland needs to root out this mentality and build a proserous country instead of those who glory in Scotland being in deficit and ue it as a means to perpetuate a union that clearly is not working.
85

The Tin Man,

29/01/2009 16:03:32
Out of interest, is anyone familiar with the funding formulae used for comparative spending allocations to Shetland, Aberdeenshire, and Edinburgh?
86

The Tin Man,

29/01/2009 16:24:06
#99

Leave Aberdeenshire out of your subsidy junky drivel.

Aberdeenshire Council’s spending is 11.5% below the Scottish average. Staffing levels are 13.1% below the Scottish average. Government grant per head of population is 13.4% below the Scottish average for 2008/09 based on June 2006 population figures.


87

Raymond Thomas Brooke,

Leven England 29/01/2009 16:24:36
Roll on Independence....for ENGLAND
88

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 29/01/2009 16:25:23
100

[0; NP x {7 x [(LIBOR2 x 1 / LIBOR) - (LIBOR4 X LIBOR-3)]} X days in the month/360]
89

The Tin Man,

29/01/2009 16:29:17
Average expenditure per head of population 2008-9:

Shetland: £4308

Aberdeenshire: £1692

Midlothian: £1946


According to Nevsky's feeble logic, people who live on Shetland are subsidy junkies, whether they are of the Unionist persuasion, or not.
90

Nevsky;,

Moscow 29/01/2009 16:30:04
101 Tin Man#

The unionists need the handout to stay in business. You prefer the Scottish subsidy junkie (we need the uk) mentality...some of us would prefer to make a success of our country.

91

Nevsky;,

Moscow 29/01/2009 16:43:04
104 Tin Man#

Scotland (the country) goes begging to London and the unionists are happy.

Shetland/Western islas etc are part of Scotland...Scotland wealth for Scotland's people.

England's wealth for the Scottish unionists!
92

Eve,

Scotland 29/01/2009 16:57:57
"He told fellow peers yesterday: "I was worried that the formula will so upset people in England that they will demand a separation which, in my view, will be hugely damaging, as I have no wish to see the UK split into three separate countries."

Does Lord Barnett no know that if he cuts the amount of money going to Scotland it will upset the Scot and the union will brake. Us Scots aren't stupied we know we give more money to Westminster than we get back.

It really does come across some days that Scottish unionist (sorry if this term of ends anyone)care about the union more than they do about the people.

Waho the end of the union trule is nie. The only question is will it be us Scots who have had enogh or will the English deceed to end it before we get the chance to vote for independence.

Roll on Scottish Independence.
93

Eve,

Scotland 29/01/2009 16:59:47
#103 Tormod: Whats like?
94

 sm753,

29/01/2009 17:06:20
107

"Us Scots aren't stupied we know we give more money to Westminster than we get back. "

No, we don't and no, we don't.

http://tpa.typepad.com/home/files/unequal_shares_the_barnett_formula.pdf

page 14
95

The Tin Man,

29/01/2009 17:10:44
"Shetland/Western islas etc are part of Scotland...Scotland wealth for Scotland's people"

So you are oh so happy for people in Aberdeen to subsidise people in Shetland, but if people in Bristol subsidise people in Shetland, then the Shetlanders become 'subsidy junkies'.

What kind of argument is that?
96

David MacVicar,

Web 29/01/2009 17:13:51
Scotlands financial position is obfuscated.
It is obfuscated by those who believe in formulas as opposed to fiscal responsibility and accountability.
Those responsible are the successive Labour and Tory Governments from the 60s till today..

The only logical and accurate conclusion for this bizarre position is that they want to hide the facts for their own political benefit and ideology. Even Calman admits it. This alone is a great reason for getting out of the Unpartnership of the UK.

Scotland can become independent because it is a Country in treaty with the country of England to form a State that either can 'untreat'. The end. Shetland is in no such position, it is a false debate and a pathetic one at that.

McCrone is relevant because the myth and deception of Scotlands true fiscal position was perpetuated until well into this decade ie. for over 30 years. The UK state lied consistently and blatently for decades using a policy of state sponsored deception. The UK is therefore easily proven to work against our national interest for successive decades. Oil or no Oil, it is not reasonable to remain in partnership with those who treat our nation with such contempt. They will do it again and are obviously certainly trying to hide our true fiscal position right Now by any means possible.

This is clearly why Calman admitted fiscal control would lead to independence. In any case full fiscal control will be with us sooner rather than later either with independence or as a precursor to it.
97

Nevsky;,

Moscow 29/01/2009 17:15:43
Shetland is in Scotland, Bristol is in England.

Scotland and England are countries. Scottish unionists are the beggars of Scotland and content to remain so!

Thankfully and rightfully the English see the injustice of aying the Scottish Unionsists to stay in the Union..and rightly so.

Time to get rid of the 'cap in hand Scots'.
98

The Tin Man,

29/01/2009 17:20:05
#112 Nevsky

Lol.
99

 sm753,

29/01/2009 17:20:34
111

"Scotland can become independent because it is a Country in treaty with the country of England to form a State that either can 'untreat'."

Legally speaking, no it can't. Article I says the Union is "henceforth and forever after". I believe that's called "entrenched".

"McCrone is relevant because the myth and deception of Scotlands true fiscal position was perpetuated"

No, it is irrelevant on multiple levels.

First, it was written in 1974 and contains no facts, only forecasts.

Second, the main forecasts were made public in 1973 and have remained so ever since.

Third, the SNP based their economic and political case on those forecasts in multiple election campaigns and were rejected every time.

Fourth:

http://tpa.typepad.com/home/files/unequal_shares_the_barnett_formula.pdf

page 14
100

Nevsky;,

Moscow 29/01/2009 17:23:08
114 sm753#

Scotland can't ever be independent legally..hoot hoot...you are something else lol!
101

David MacVicar,

Web 29/01/2009 17:23:17
Not only have the unionsts continually obfuscated Scotlands revenues and expenditure but added a good dose of Zimbabwean anti democratic polkitical practice too.

Only in the UK can a referendum allow the dead to vote and a 52% yes become a No decision. No matter how the unprincipled unionist detractors try to rationalise it was not democratic by any norm or definition.

So they have cosnsitently blocked scotlmands move towards autonmy at every time and every time Scotland has been asked to vote on our constitution it has been a YES vote for more autonomy. And No a UK general election is NOT a referendum.

Not long now to a more democratic open and accountable Scotland, you know, things we associate with Scottish culture and values.
102

The Tin Man,

29/01/2009 17:24:32
#112

After the revolution, what plans do you have for those that you classify as "the 'cap in hand Scots"?

I though we were subsidising 'the English' a minute ago. Which campsite do you have your tent in today?
103

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 29/01/2009 17:26:00
Eve @ 108 it's a calculation for a double swap derivative.
104

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 29/01/2009 17:29:36
114 That's interesting, so because of the term "henceforth and forever after" used in the articles of union it's legally entrenched in both English and Scots law and cannot be reversed by a another act of parliament.
105

Nevsky;,

Moscow 29/01/2009 17:35:44
119 Tormod#

He is nuts. The act would simply be repealed.
106

TWC,

29/01/2009 17:40:12
111 David MacVicar,

There is not a shadow of doubt that Scotland will be better off with Full Fiscal Control and I agree that Calman's reaction confirms it.
107

David MacVicar,

web 29/01/2009 17:42:12
114 sm753,

Sorry but this is not worth the paper it was written on.

Firstly, we are having a referendum anyway at least if it is voted for in SCOTLAND, so th epoint is moot. Worded to keep the Unionists happy but really not necessary, if most of Scotland want a referendum we can just up and have one.

Second whose law? Scottish constitutional experts consistently state that our populace are sovereign and Scots law was never superseded, English law changes get put into action in Scotland under Scottish law through British parliament by convention. There is no British law only English and Scottish, each remain distinct. The words in the treaty do not supersede Scottish sovereignty, the treaty can both be changed (occurred several times) and undone - alredy almost done by the English just a few years after the Union - 1707 I think.


Your comments on McCrone are evidently false since it took a freedom of information request this decade to get the details which were actually buried. The 'forecasts' as you say were pretty dynamite hence the quick burial. Oops.
108

The Tin Man,

29/01/2009 17:44:04
#121 TWC

There is not a shadow of doubt that I will be better off with Full Fiscal Control.

The Patriotic Pantomime continues unabated in the Hoots Mon comments threads.
109

Eve,

Scotland 29/01/2009 17:52:42
#109 sm753: What are you serouley suggesting that Scots are stupied!!!!

110

TWC,

29/01/2009 17:53:05
123 The Tin Man
It doesn't matter who comments and points out how bad the LAbour party are the Lemon sooking poodles who plague these posts (like you)cannot form a consrtuctive comment of any kind.
I'm probably taller than you but you are much thicker obviously.
111

Eve,

Scotland 29/01/2009 17:59:00
#118 Tormod: What made up facts & figure!!

Ah would that be Like before I was born Scots were told the oil would only last 10-15year (I belive it was) and bissaly enought I a lot older than 15 (some what over a decade) and theres still oil in the North sea and possible access to oil in the Alantic ocean.
112

The Tin Man,

29/01/2009 18:02:21
#125 TWC

How very condecending of you. I am so pleased to hear that you have the monopoly on constructive comments. Maybe on day you will prove it, instead of sitting there and saying that 'we'll be better off with independence'.

I compared the Barnet formula with funding disparity between Aberdeenshire and Shetland, because I thought it might shed some light on why the formula favours Scotland, when taken generally. The best reply I have seen is Nevsky saying 'oh, but they are both in Scotland'.

I give up debating with lemons for today.




113

David MacVicar,

web 29/01/2009 18:15:40
Just specially for sm753:

Read it and weep brit-boy:
"In 1707 when the Act of Union was passed in the Scot’s Parliament Article 3 shows quite clearly that the Parliaments of Scotland and England were held to be in abeyance ad interim and that a new Union Parliament was to be elected. It is important to note that both English law and Scot’s law were excluded from this Treaty of Union designed to set up a completely new United Parliament. What this means is that Scottish Civil Law and Scottish Constitutional Law were left un-compromised and that Scotland retained popular sovereignty. The people of Scotland remained the superior constitutional authority.... It was with the foregoing in his mind that in 1953 Lord Cooper of Cardross as Lord President of The Court of Session in the case of "McCormick v The Lord Advocate " pronounced that, "The unlimited sovereignty of Parliament has no counterpart in Scottish Constitutional Law" unquote. Thus Lord Cooper reaffirmed that Scotland not only has a written constitution but that it is alive and well. Extant in 1953, Scottish Constitutional Law now has an in situ Legislature ensuring that Scottish Sovereignty remains un-compromised and that only the will of the registered electorate in Scotland can change the status quo."
Source "The Ancient Scottish Constitution"
114

David MacVicar,

Cont. 29/01/2009 18:18:36
In other words, as far as referendums are concerned, you Brit-Scots can stick the acts of Union and the Scotland Act up yer $"é_è'

Scottish constitution 1, Union Nil.
115

St Caledonia,

29/01/2009 18:28:49
I am a proud Scot and I believe that one day we will all get the chance to vote on independence, although I dont believe the SNP are the party to deliver that vote. They dont appear to be focussed on assisting the Scottish people, they prefer to agitate and create Anglo- Saxon ill feeling. If only the SNP could govern, but sadly they cant.
I am not sure what the solution is, but let us all hope that one day we get the chance to have our say on independence. Scotland deserves the chance to do so, every nation does.
116

Eve,

Scotland 29/01/2009 19:29:10
#114 sm753:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qHGfKggjTxE

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mNRmugH6oBE
117

Eve,

Scotland 29/01/2009 20:18:31
'Scottish' Labour Party
HQ - London, England

Is that really true Traquir , Alba?
118

TWC,

29/01/2009 20:48:56
127 The Tin Man,

See yer wrong again as any of these more intelligent Nat/Unionist posters will tell you I'm not a Nat I said Full Fiscal Autonmy. I didn't say I wanted Independence - But It doesn't scare me either
119

 sm753,

29/01/2009 21:13:54
122 / 129

Actually I wasn't being entirely serious with the point that "legally speaking" the Union is indissoluble - although see Texas v. White, and the fact that the status of the Kirk was affirmed to be "entrenched" in 18-something or other.

Now at 129 you have mentioned something called "The Ancient Scottish Constitution" but not given an author. That's a bit useless, frankly.

And your source says:

"Thus Lord Cooper reaffirmed that Scotland not only has a written constitution but that it is alive and well. "

Ok, so where is it?

The complete records of the pre-1707 parliament are now at:

http://www.rps.ac.uk/

Where is this "constitution"?

And as for Cooper, he was talking rubbish. That oft-quoted passage is a side remark in the case about numbers on post-boxes.

Remind me how he actually ruled on the case, again?
120

 sm753,

29/01/2009 21:19:40
122

"Scottish constitutional experts consistently state that our populace are sovereign and Scots law was never superseded"

Which "experts"? Name six of them.

"There is no British law only English and Scottish, each remain distinct."

Wrong. There are many, many pan-UK laws. Finance Acts. International Treaties. Defence, Security and Terrorism Acts. Shall I go on?

"The words in the treaty do not supersede Scottish sovereignty, the treaty can both be changed (occurred several times) and undone"

Some bits of the Union Acts can be and have been undone, some can't. The latter class includes the status of the Kirk, affirmed in a later 19th century act.

"Your comments on McCrone are evidently false since it took a freedom of information request this decade to get the details which were actually buried. The 'forecasts' as you say were pretty dynamite hence the quick burial."

Dynamite only to those incapable of reading Hansard or the 1974 Conservative manifestos.

Or indeed the 1974 SNP manifestos!

The key forecasts in McCrone were made public in 1973 - I have provided primary sources.
121

 sm753,

29/01/2009 21:21:08
124 Eve

"#109 sm753: What are you serouley suggesting that Scots are stupied!!!!"

No. I'm saying that we don't "know" we contribute more than we get back, because we don't contribute more than we get back.

http://tpa.typepad.com/home/files/unequal_shares_the_barnett_formula.pdf

page 14
122

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 29/01/2009 22:17:04
Roll on the REFERENDUM ON INDEPENDENCE so that we can finally get rid of the thieving, lieing, subsidy junky english. Our place in the 2012 Olympic Games is guaranteed.However england will not be there as a country but part of something called gb.Have a nice day!!!!!!!!!!!!
123

yoric,

29/01/2009 22:26:10
Don't you love these people that are so pro Scottish, so anti English, and then live 6500 miles away in the Californian sunshine.


124

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 30/01/2009 01:29:53
136 sm753

Ah, why are Unionists so bad at Scottish history.
The fact of the matter is that sovereignty has and always will be in the hands of the SCOTTISH PEOPLE. The Declaration of Arbroath and the fact that Scottish Kings /Queens were monarchs of the Scots BUT NOT OF SCOTLAND shows this.
As for the Treaty of Union this was not voted for by the Scottish people so is in effect null and void as Sovereignty cannot be given away.
So you can waffle on about legaly this and legaly that however try studying the subject matter as i have
125

oder,

Scotland 30/01/2009 08:15:12
history shows the England does not hang on to anything that costs it money! whatever reason for hanging on to Scotland its not because they what to be generous to ungrateful scroungers like the Scots!
can we find an Westminster politician who know`s the truth?
126

British flag,

30/01/2009 13:01:15
Barnett is correct,unless the people of England get a fairer deal the UK will split,but it will be England that does the splitting!
127

Eve,

Scotland 30/01/2009 16:30:20
#134 sm753,29: Oh is that yer bed time story book?

Personaly I've read better fiction in the Daily Record.
128

Eve,

Scotland 30/01/2009 16:33:58
#138 oder: Exselent point!

It's a question that all Scots should ask them selfs!
129

British flag,

30/01/2009 18:07:28
Eve. you are talking out of your ar-e again! England contributed 17.5 billion in the block grant from westminster in 07/08!
130

British flag,

30/01/2009 18:12:09
From "The Herald" Calman: Scotland and Westminster relationship must change ... These comprise the current £30 billion block grant Holyrood gets from Westminster.The vast bulk of the spending allowed in Scotland is funded by a block grant from Westminster. Eve,wake up and smell the coffee!
131

oder,

Scotland 30/01/2009 23:19:47
139 British flag,30

"Barnett is correct,unless the people of England get a fairer deal the UK will split,but it will be England that does the splitting!"

how would you suggest the people of Scotland,Wales, Northern Ireland give England a better deal? the Barnett Formula was brought about by a predominately English Government! do not assume that only English people have pride! there are many people in Scotland who do not believe (if true) that Scotland should be subsidised by England indeed! give one good reason why any Scot should accept this? if the down trodden English people are suffering because of Barnett then you are correct the sooner they make the split the better!

 

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