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Ignoring Old Firm over Setanta deal may prove disastrous for SPL clubs

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Published Date: 04 June 2009
EVEN those who believe the Old Firm have too much influence on Scottish football must wish the advice of the Glasgow giants had not been ignored by most of their fellow SPL members last summer.
With the offer of a £125 million, four-year extension to Setanta's contract on the table, Celtic and Rangers urged caution and backed a rival bid from British Sky Broadcasting. While less lucrative, the Old Firm reasoned it provided the SPL with bot
h greater long-term security and a higher profile.

Only Aberdeen supported that view, however, and the new Setanta deal was accepted by a 9-3 vote. It may yet join Scotland's 1961 defeat by England at Wembley by the same margin as one of the country's darkest footballing hours.

There remained no official comment yesterday from either the SPL or Setanta on the on-going financial problems facing the broadcasters who failed to make the final payment of £3 million for the current season on schedule earlier this week.

They have until next Monday before, under the terms of their contract, they have formally defaulted.

In a conference call involving the SPL board of directors yesterday, it is understood representatives of member clubs were informed that Setanta are still hopeful new investors in the company will allow them to meet their obligations.

But the growing concerns among many clubs, especially those who are heavily in debt such as Hearts and Kilmarnock, will not be soothed so easily.

While the individual sums due from the current overdue Setanta payment amount to between £150,000 and £250,000 per club, depending on their final league placing, it is the prospect of Setanta's complete financial collapse which is causing an outbreak of cold sweats in boardrooms throughout the country.

The first instalment of next season's Setanta money would be due on 1 August and entails far more significant payments of over £500,000 per club.

The SPL were already in negotiations with Setanta to reduce the terms of the new £125 million contract, which is due to kick in at the start of the 2010-11 season, but now face the grim prospect of being left without any television deal.

"It looks like the decision to sign that new contract last year could turn out to be a pretty catastrophic mistake," one SPL club official, who did not wish to be named, told The Scotsman. "At the time, the general feeling was that sticking with Setanta was the right thing to do. They had been good partners for the SPL and the deal on the table was better than the one being offered by Sky.

"Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but it is clear that if the Sky offer had been accepted instead, then it would have provided far greater security.

"These are definitely worrying times. There are clubs who will be in serious danger of having to go into administration if the situation is not resolved over the next few weeks.

"Times are already difficult financially for many of our clubs anyway and in the current climate, there is unlikely to be much help available from the banks. We just have to hope that Setanta find a way to survive."

With 1.2 million subscribers, Setanta had pinned its hopes of reaching an estimated break even figure of 1.9 million on its coverage of the English Premier League. That strategy was seriously undermined, however, when they saw Sky win five of the six packages of live EPL matches on offer in the last round of negotiations.

Sir Robin Miller, the former chief executive of publishing giants Emap, has been recruited to lead an attempt to attract new investors and create a viable new business model for Setanta. It has also been suggested that Setanta are in talks for their SPL and EPL matches to be screened through Sky's platform of channels. That, however, would still mean significantly reduced revenue for the SPL.

In the worse case scenario of Setanta's total demise, the SPL would be reduced to scrambling around this summer to try and secure a new television contract, just as they did following the collapse of former chief executive Roger Mitchell's ill-fated SPL TV proposal in 2002.

On that occasion, they found original television partners Sky unwilling to return to the table and were forced to take a far less lucrative offer from BBC Scotland. The crisis they may be facing seven years later is potentially far more severe.





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 June 2009 10:45 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: The Old Firm
 
1

Backofthenet,

04/06/2009 00:12:29
Another broadcaster will surely step in if Setanta go bust or otherwise can't stick to their deal e.g. Sky, ESPN or the BBC. Presumably for significantly less money though.
2

The Saint,

04/06/2009 00:51:15
If Kilmarnock and Hearts go to the wall so be it.

You take your chances .....................

3

Bishop Boyne,

Loanhead 04/06/2009 04:33:20
EVEN those who believe the Old Firm have too much influence on Scottish football must wish the advice of the Glasgow giants had not been ignored by most of their fellow SPL members last summer.

What a load of poultry droppings, If the SPL teams excluding the Bigot Brothers had gone ahead with their threat to withdraw from the SPl, then there would be lot more interest and advancement of Scottish football and Scottish players. If the present situation hurts the bigot brothers more then thats good enough for me!!
4

Angoos,

Baku, Azerbaijan 04/06/2009 05:01:51
#3 Bishop Boyne

Methinks it is you who are talking "Poultry Droppings" !

"There would be lot more interest and advancement of Scottish football" ? B0ll0cks

Like it or not, the fanbase of the OF teams are what attracts broadcasters to show SPL games. The fact that over 90% of games shown feature one half of the OF is testiment to that !

I think you will find that if the current Setanta deal goes t1ts up then it won't be the OF that get hurt the most but other teams in the SPL who rely on the TV money as their major source of income.
5

Media at One,

04/06/2009 06:00:22
Funny how the three most successful and famous clubs in the history of Scottish Football expressed caution, but the 9 also rans decided against it.
Ye reap what ye sow
6

jumpship,

Edinburgh 04/06/2009 06:08:28
4 Angoos:

We could take it back even further if you want. All 12 teams agreed developing our own SPL Chanel, only for the old firm to change their minds at the last minute. The only deal on the table was Setanta.

As for the setanta deal going t!ts up. Its been reported, the number of armchair old firm fans willing to part with their cash has been greatly exaggerated.

Ill tell you what thou. The old firm seemed to know way before anyone else setanta was in trouble. why was that.
7

Angoos,

Baku, Azerbaijan 04/06/2009 06:38:26
#6 Jumpship

The problem with the subscriptions for Setanta in my opinion was that when they first started covering SPL games it was via Sky and you had to buy the "complete package" and couldn't buy on a pay per view basis or even on a monthly basis. Not a lot of folk I know were prepared to pay £120 per year up front as they couldn't afford that kind of outlay on top of their subscription for Sky

I have Virgin Media Cable TV back home in Scotland and even now you can only get Setanta on a monthly basis at £15 per month (which I stupidly pay every month even though I work overseas for the vast majority of the time).

I don't think the number of subscribers was exaggerated by anyone other than Setanta when they were trying to convince the members of the SPL that their "business plan" (based on perceived subscriptions) was sound.

It seems that they have built their castle on a bed of sand !!
8

Monty_1,

DXB 04/06/2009 07:14:55
Its a typical political scenario in Scotland - money over what might be the better option..its been the curse of the powers that be in Scotland for centuries so why change the habbit?

For those that think the O.F are the anti-christ and what not...just take a look at the half empty stadiums around the country when non O.F teams are playing then watch the next week when either of them roll up...as if by magic the stadium is full to capacity. Take a look at Tanadice on the last day of the season - looked to me as though the visiting side had about 40-45% of the seats. Thing is its a weekly occurence and not just an start/end of season phenomenon. Just what deal would be on the table without them??

The O.F are the top draw and anybody who thinks Scottish Football would be better served without them is just kidding themselves, regardless of the religious tripe associated with the 2 of them.
9

Finloch,

Edinburgh 04/06/2009 07:45:09
Troubled times for the SPL
Setanta will not find the funding they need because their business plan doen't add up
Then their overvalued valuation of the SPL product will not be matched by any other company with a valid business model (so there will be a fire sale)
And Scottish football will receive another body blow in its descent to a place lower than the English Championship
10

Silence of the Yams,

04/06/2009 08:12:15
Hertz RIP.
11

Bigwull,

edinburgh 04/06/2009 08:18:40
The Old firm are a cancer on Scottish Football and should be cut out completely,it would be funny to see them struggle in England and slowly die as thev've won nothing for 20 years and languishing in the third tier, mark my words the Sky deal would have meant more money for them and less for the rest, snivelling little Aberdeen as usual want to ride on their coat tails waiting for scraps from the big table.
12

Bigwull,

edinburgh 04/06/2009 08:20:59
10 enjoy portobello.
Personally I would send the Hibees to Vietnam.
13

Lion-O "Lord Of The ThunderCats,

04/06/2009 08:29:05
#11 The OF take 70% of the Setanta cash so are you serious when you say they would have got MORE with the Sky deal?

No wonder they were against the Setanta deal then.

Maybe a journalist could write an investigative piece over the cash paid to each SPL club by Setanta - surely one editor out there must think this is a good angle on this story - or are they under orders from SDM not to?
14

Rambo The Jambo,

4-0 at Hampden 04/06/2009 08:32:31

# 10 Silence of the Yams

If Hertz go bust you can always try Avis, Budget, Mitchell's Self-Drive, Arnold Clark etc, the choice is endless.

15

Edinburgh's Big Team,

EH11 04/06/2009 09:02:39
I'm not sure how appealing the SPL is for other broadcasters now as the SFA/SPL have pandered to the old firm to such an extent they have created a single product package. They have ignored the needs of other clubs due to their short-sighted approach and now broadcasters are not really interested in our game. It would be even funnier to see that single product (the old firm) say "thanks for your help" and then hot-foot it down to Enlgand which would leave our pathetic authorities with no product. Absolute bafoons.

On the section about causing Hearts & Kilmarnock the biggest problem? Hearts bank with a partner in the same group so how likely are they to put a fellow partner into administration over £200k when we already carry a £30m debt? Get real, it would be the teams with lower turnover and little season ticket income that will struggle to pay wages over the summer as they will bank with one of the under-pressure UK banks with no relationship other than a commercial one.

If you're going to make up stories at least make them believable.
16

Gazzza,

Berkshire 04/06/2009 09:08:54
Yet again we see the minnows ignore the old firm at their peril. Well done to Aberdeen for supporting the big two but surely to God the likes of Hearts and Hibs should have had the financial nouce to realise that it was only a matter of time before Setanta bit the dust.

BSB are head and shoulders above them in commentating, quality broadcasting and impartial commentators. The standard of broadcast from Setanta is nothing short of amaturish and perhaps it will take the demise of this outfit and with it the bankruptcy of a n SPL Team to cause Scottish Football to wake up.

Rangers and Celtic could go off and do a deal for themselves tomorrow that would be beneficial to them and consequently their development as a quality European club yet they are consistently thwarted by the "hangers on".

Surely it was obvious to everyone why the big two and Aberdeen wanted to do a deal with BSB - even at a lesser income.

As for those who think that the old firm are a cancer of Scottish Football, don't make me laugh, without the income which they generate for the other clubs Scottish football would be an even bigger joke than it currently is.
17

Hamish 123,

London 04/06/2009 09:16:08
There's a simple test for any decison concerning Scottish football: if the OF are both for it, it stinks. No doubt the Sky deal would have earned them more money, while continuining to impoverish the rest of Scottish football (vis a vis buying up all their players, busloads of "supporters" travelling from all over Scotland to Ibrox/Parkhead every weekend etc etc).

Plus ca change et plus c'st la meme chose . . .

And if a number of clubs go to the wall, no doubt the OF will feel that, given the world owes them a living, they'll be invited to join the English leagues.


18

LiviGuy,

04/06/2009 09:16:29
The problem with Setanta is that they aliented half their potential viewers with their astonishly one side coverage of old firm games, for example the love in with the Celtic fans sining YWNWA before the matches at Parkhead. I cancelled my subscription after the 4-2 game at the start of this season, as have just about every Rangers fan I know.

I would be happy to take out a Sky subscription though and if they do take up the coverage they get the chance to kill Setanta off once and for all, meaning less competition next time they bid for premiership rights.

We might the get some decent professional coverage, unlike the amateurish rubbish served up ny Setanta and Croker, Booth and co will be out of a job - a wi/win secario.
19

bus user,

edinburgh 04/06/2009 09:27:50
The usual conflation of issues when Rangers and Celtic are involved.
IF the OF went into one of the English Leagues, and IF they both failed miserably and IF that made their fans stop going, why is there an assumption that all those fans would suddenly find Scottish football attractive?
Just look at the number of football fans in the Irish republic who support English teams and the numbers who actually turn out to see Irish football. In addition, not all travelling Northern Irish football fans go to Rangers and Celtic games - check the numbers going to Liverpool and Manchester.
Also consider what happened when Third Lanark went bust in the 60s, with a solid fan base of several thousand - most of whom went on to follow Pollock FC in the juniors. Without the OF, there's no reason to assume that the game in Scotland would become better, more competitive or more attractive to fans and sponsors and TV. More likely it would become like the Welsh and both Irish Leagues - no-one would care and we would act as a breeding ground for players to go to England even more than we did in the past, assuming our players were any good.
Sad, but I fear true.
20

jackhobbs,

glasgow 04/06/2009 09:28:56
The old chestnut of 'why don't the OF clear off to the EPL' has been raised again. What makes any sane person think that three clubs (Birmingham/Wolves/Burnley) would have been 'pleased as punch' to have two Scottish clubs usurp them by joining the EPL ahead of them this summer. A significant number of Scottish football fans loathe English people/football why then do they want to join an English League surely not for the money ? Bolton Wanderers chairman can go ahead and apply to join the SPL if he is that keen to raise the profile of the his club. I wonder what the Bolton fans would say about that !!!
21

Pete the ex-pat,

London 04/06/2009 09:40:26
Not sure where the OF getting 70% of the cash is coming from. I understand it's around 30%.

Posted by Mort on the Celtic Quick News Site from the 07-08 season:
Celtic £3m (£73m) - 4.1% of total turnover
Rangers £2.7m (£64.5m) - 4.2% of total turnover
Motherwell £1.71m (£4.7m) - 36.4% of total turnover
Aberdeen £1.53m (£12.9m) - 11.9% of total turnover
Dundee United £1.44m (£5.9m) - 24.4% of total turnover
Hibernian £1.35m (£8.1m) - 16.7% of total turnover
Falkirk £1.26m (£4.5m) - 28% of total turnover
Hearts £1.17m (£9.2m) - 12.7% of total turnover
Inverness CT £1.08m (N/K)
St Mirren £990,000 (£3m) - 33% of total turnover
Kilmarnock £900,000 (£8.7m) - 10.3% of total turnover

So as was posted, Celtic and Rangers can absorb this blow financially, Abderdeen Hearts Hibs and Kilmarnock can probably deal with it, but the other teams, where even this small amount accounts for 1/4 opf their turnover, could be very painful...

As to Celtic & Rangers joining the EPL, EPL2, Championship, Beazer Homes or whatever? I thnk that would consign the SPL to park football. There is virtually no money or appeal in the Scottish game outwith our borders witrhout the big two Glasgow clubs. Fact of life I'm afraid.
22

morris,

edinburgh 04/06/2009 09:53:37
I wonder if the SFA could create its own channel and feed through Cable TV or SKY and screen selected games or even digital pay as you view which means almost anybody can get it .Why we need Setanta is a slight mystery to me.They have the technical skills I agree but they will presumably be looking for a job anyway ? The cable TV company must be paying Setanta a fair bit of money as are Sky presumably plus they have income from advertising etc. We could always demand that BBC spend the 9% of the funding which comes from Scotland IN Scotland,but of course that would create a big problem down south where they would have to only get a fair share now.WE CANNOT POSSIBLY HAVE SCOTLAND TREATED FAIRLY NOW CAN WE!
It would mean we have to treat England fairly and remove a big slice of their share !
Of course if we did not retain the gates receipts as being property of the home team only,that would help the most vulnerable clubs whilst doing nothing for the upper level of course.Whatever decisions are made ONE THING IS FOR SURE .You will only get it wrong ONCE !
Better start with removing Union Jock Smith for a kick off.If he is allowed input tv coverage will be in colour okay but only red white and blue!

Clubs are paying ridiculous wages,in that if you cant afford it then its ridiculous, and mostly to foreign imports .You could always have a wage structure which fits within your income guys and adopt a youth policy same as many lower clubs have to because there is nothing else.One thing for sure ,if Setanta does go (and its almost certainly going to change at least)then changes are inevitable and the OLD Firm already wield far too much influence over the game in Scotland based upon the crowds that they draw. Maybe if half of Scotlands supporters who support the Old Firm teams but have never actually been in Glasgow in their lives got a brain it would help?
Any idiot can celebrate Barcelona winning Europes top prize, but it makes more sense if you live in Catalonia a
23

morris,

edinburgh 04/06/2009 09:54:37
continued
Any idiot can celebrate Barcelona winning Europes top prize, but it makes more sense if you live in Catalonia and looks slightly less sensible if you are a joiner frae Thurso !Go and support a Highland League team or Ross County ya numpty !ICT if you can travel that far .The problem with Football in Scotland is the majority view prevails but that rarely is the same as common sense!
24

Lion-O "Lord Of The ThunderCats,

04/06/2009 09:57:37
#21 I'm assuming that this is only the prize money figures you are talking about?

The Setanta deal is also based on pay for the live TV games with the away clubs receiving only slightly less than the home team.

As the OF are constantly on Setanta every single week I'm sure you can work out that this is where they cash in compared to the other 10 teams who only ever get cash when the OF come swaggering in to visit.
25

Andrew Sachs,

04/06/2009 10:16:42
22 - Morris Bitterman,

The reason that half of Scotland supportys the Glasgow clubs is because half of Scotlands population lives in the Greater Glasgow area. This is a fact. Whether you choose to deal with it or not is neither here nor there to me;-)

No doubt, your revised bitter rants will see you accuse people of only living/moving to the Greater Glasgow area due to some gloryhunting tendencies.

Yawwnnn!!!

26

morris,

edinburgh 04/06/2009 10:32:37
22 Half of Scotland live within Strathclyde region .I know this. I also know that many of Scotlands clubs are within Strathclyde region . That negates your argument. I have no problem with somebody who lives in Glasgow or even lives further afield and has ties with Glasgow or maybe even works there. I myself have been at East End Park and Easter Road supporting these clubs in European ties. What I refer to is the Man United fan who has never been to see them in his life and thinks they play in Manchester ! Man City are in Manchester. Old Trafford is in SALFORD(a completely seperate Borough).
I have at least been in the ground once at a reserve game on Sunday afternoon. I have no problem with somebody supporting any team provided it is a genuine support of that team. I would not even try to make that argument.
27

Monty_1,

DXB 04/06/2009 10:37:12
Its about now that I'd love to see somebody come out in support of different ideas. Banish the daft 4 leagues as well as a good few of the small teams through an amalgamation scheme - there is not room for all the teams in Scotland. Switch the timing of the season so that a load of games are played over the summer months instead of the winter...anything really to make Scottish more appealing to fans and TV companies...
28

Andrew Sachs,

04/06/2009 10:42:00
26 - No it doesn't negate my arguement Morris. Bus loads of people travel from such towns as Linlithgow and Bo'ness to see Hearts and Hibs play. That they prefer this to watching their local sides like Falkirk, East Stirling, Livingston or even their own junior teams is entirely up to them and easily understood by me!

29

morris,

edinburgh 04/06/2009 10:42:24
27 That sounds remarkably like common sense !

No way will that ever see the light of day then.

Well said .......................but I doubt that anything as progressive as actually doing something sensible is on the agenda.Not yet anyway.We are too busy with our national sport of tribalism.
30

Andrew Sachs,

04/06/2009 10:45:51
27 - Monty, at last a man who talks sense.

A season that lasts from the beginning of March to late November would see us avoid the worst of the weather and have the game played on better surfaces. Hell, the grass even grows during these months. A months break in case we were to make a major tournament (it even lets people watch Brazil and Argentina on the telly and increases the interest in the game as a whole) would be the best idea in my opinion.

Two senior leagues of 16 or 18 fed by regional leagues.

Follow the Andrew Sachs model and our football will go from strength to strength!
31

morris,

edinburgh 04/06/2009 11:02:26
28 I agree with that! I myself travelled to Hearts ground from much further south,because I am a Hearts fan and was born in Edinburgh but raised further afield.I was at no time knocking a genuine supporter and IM actually surprised that anybody could think that I am !Im attacking the people who claim to be what they clearly are not.

I was passing by the Grove Bar in Berwick (opposite Shielfield Park)and saw a fleet of buses pull up outside the ground.I asked a local are they not a bit early ? The game will not start for another 3 or 4 hours surely? He replied Yes but they have to get there first ! Berwick rangers obviously have an away fixture then I said.he replied NO.I was totally confused because I had heard reference to Beriwck Rangers Supporters and we are outside their ground so it makes sense that if the buses are Berwick Rangers supporters then they must be playing away from home since the buses are aleady at Shielfield. The confusion arose because this was Berwick branch of GLASGOW RANGERS supporters buses and I accept that some fans live in Berwick and are genuinely Glasgow Rangers fans They hired a bus to go and watch them wherever they are playing FAIR ENOUGH.It stuck in my memory however that the buses could each carry around 45 passengers and if my memory serves me well there were five of them so they were taking approx 200 fans to wherever Rangers were playing . (Not sure if it was to Ibrox).I dont think it was but its years ago now.I could not help but notice that Berwick Rangers crowd that day was only slightly better than the bus party. I do however accept that these guys do support Glasgow Rangers and put their money where their mouth is and I do not deny them the right to do so! I attack people who claim to be what they clearly are not only. I thought that was obvious ?
32

Andrew Sachs,

04/06/2009 11:12:23
Fair dues Morris; possibly I went off half-cocked! However, these people you attack for pretending to be what they are not are highly represented in the legions of supposed Dundee Utd/Falkirk/Motherwell fans who are conspicuous by their absence most Saturdays - last spotted washing the car or hanging around shopping malls with some dodgy bird (hey thats my wife your talking about) when their teams need them!


I'm ever the optimist though, I reckon that things like this provide the opportunity to change things radically if people are willing! Its often when you have little left to lose that big changes seem less risky!
33

morris,

edinburgh 04/06/2009 11:29:48
32 We are actually singing from the same hymn sheet Andrew!
All I want to see is the survival of all of Scotlands clubs and decisions made by the Football authorities,which are beneficial to all of our clubs. If I had my way Id go with Montys league 100% .Id even go further and rename all non league clubs and SJFA clubs regional division 3 clubs.Just how we would accomodate promotion/relegation would require a lot more deabte of course.One thing that would have happened perhaps is that Third Lanark and Gretna would still be with us perhaps even if it is propping up the foot of their regional division three. Of course we may find that clubs like Johnstone Burgh or Shotts Bon Accord or Newtongrnage Star who have grounds or fans which are the envy of some so called senior clubs might flourish and one day play in a higher divsion! The clubs need help now because its too little too late otherwise I fear.I consider the loss of any club to be one too many. We already have one partly because of Gretna s owner being the club, and partly because they were forced to play at Motherwell which guaranteed they were bankrupt. Why a ground share with Carlisle United was not possible I dont know. Their ground is bigger than Hearts! The argument that they are in England does not hold water. Berwick Rangers ground is in England. It must have been because the money went to a non Scottish club so we let Gretna fold because we had no inclination to save her.If Gretna can go then Stenhousemuir Albion Brechin Forfar Berwick etc had better pay attention. Their finances cant be much better than some junior clubs.
34

Mikeinho,

Cowdenbeath 04/06/2009 11:37:55
Firstly, a point everyone appears to be missing is that up to the start of the 1998/1999 season there was no TV deal. Yet, all the teams managed to survive and produce a reasonably decent product on the park even though there was still the domination by r&c. Clubs survived because they lived within their means, paying wages they could afford, buying players from lower divisions and developing them or developing players through their youth systems. The introduction of the SPL and subsequent TV deals has killed our game. It's made the rich richer and as a consequence forced the poor to live outwith their means to try and keep up. Hence the massive amounts of debt accumulated in the last 10 years. Clubs paying way way over the odds in terms of transfer fees and wages to mediocre foreign players thereby stunting the development of homegrown talent (surely it's no coincidence that Scotland have not qualified for a major tournament since the SPL's inception) has left Scottish football on its knees. The lack of TV deal may be a long term blessing in disguise by forcing clubs to live within their means and place more emphasis on nurturing home grown talent in the process thereby improving the fortunes of the national side at the same time. My second point is that all this talk of Scottish football becoming similar to that in Ireland or Wales if r&c leave is complete nonsense. What people don't realise is that in these countries football is not the most popular sport. In Ireland rugby, hurling and gaelic football are all far bigger. In Wales rugby is by far and away the most popular sport. The only clubs who will suffer are the pseudo weegies of hamilton, motherwell, Kilmarnock etc who give r&c HALF the stadium when they come to town. r&c leaving won't stop 10,000 hearts, hibs and aberdeen fans buying their season tickets and regularly hitting attendances of 12-16k per week. If anything it might encourage MORE jambos, hibees and dons fans to come out and support th
35

Mikeinho,

Cowdenbeath 04/06/2009 11:38:29
cont.....come and support their clubs
36

Bigwull,

edinburgh 04/06/2009 11:45:36
21 AND YET OUR HIGHEST GATES OF THE SEASON WERE AGAINST ABERDEEN DUNDEE UTD AND HIBS, EXPLAIN THAT IF YOU THINK WE RELY ON THE OLD FIRM
37

morris,

edinburgh 04/06/2009 11:47:54
34 If we collectively were" missing the point" it was because we did not make it clear that we probably agree with you 100%,I suspect,so on that basis I apologise !
Again I can see only sense in what you say .Maybe thats the problem?
Sense has never been an attribute of Scotlands footy authorities or if it has then they sure disguised it well on many occasions!
Of course we are all wiser after the event,and I am no less guilty than anybody is. What we need are people whose love of the game takes precedence,and decisions are not made because of which tribe we belong to and how our club fares at the expense of another.
Saying it is easier than doing it I suspect, but hey we are going to have to learn and fast !
38

FINLAYBAR,

04/06/2009 11:49:12
I have to smile when i read some people comments about rangers and celtic being more forward thinking than the other clubs in the spl when it came to voting setanta or sky.

the old firm stood to make more money from the sky deal even if the the total amount to the spl was less. the thought that rangers and celtic were thinking about the wellfare of the league rather than getting the best deal for themselves is pure fantasy.

£180 quid is a lot of money to watch my team play i think 9 times against the same 3 teams. £20 quid a game is a total rip off as i dont watch any other teams games
39

Andrew Sachs,

04/06/2009 12:07:24
36 - BIGWULL=BIGLETTERS+BIGPISH!
40

Northern Hibby.,

04/06/2009 12:23:46
Shame on this jorno for trying to wedge in yet another us against them perspective into a scottish football story. Obviously did not think that the article was interesting enough to fly on its' own and felt the need to dip into the cliches cupboard.
41

mr broon,

Edinburgh 04/06/2009 13:06:50
Historically, had Scotland never been affected by the scourge of sectarianism, it is highly likely that
the Old Firm, just like all its competitors, would have been another two struggling Scottish football clubs with falling crowds, increased costs, and lack of investment.

It is a religious ill wind ..........that will always give the Old Firm the edge!
42

Andrew Sachs,

04/06/2009 13:20:53
41 - Mr Bitter, may i remind you that it's not only the OF wwho have had their name mentioned in the same sentence as sectarianism. You could deny it, but even this season and in this paper there have been more than just one or two mentions of it at Tynecastle. However, rather than get into this old story, I'd like to point you to the post directly above yours which pretty much sums up the article in my opinion.
43

deecfc67,

thailand 04/06/2009 13:22:00
well said #27,

i've been ranting on about this for years.

why wouldn't it make sense to have the small "provincial" teams join together to form one decent sized, competitive club?

i'm from fife and there you have raith rovers, dunfermline, cowdenbeath, east fife, etc. all competing for fans from a small local population.
if all these clubs formed a Fife FC type club and created a 15,000 seater stadium in a central location, who's to say it wouldn't be a great success?
same goes for the likes of stenhousemuir, stirling albion, east stirling, falkirk, etc.
imagine even have a single tayside club?

of course, as has been said, it's the rivalries between these clubs that would provide the biggest barrier, but wasn't that the case initially when they proposed merging the inverness clubs?
i'm sure i remember watching the protests about that on the news, but look where inverness caley ended up within a few seasons.
they're still considered one of the bigger clubs in scotland. certainly on a par with the likes of falkirk, livingston, st. johnston, etc.

shame it seems like it would never happen because even one, competitive league would be far better than the drivel passing itself off as association football in scotland at the moment...
44

Andrew Sachs,

04/06/2009 13:25:00
43 - But where would you stop?

Dundee FC and Dundee Utd to form a Dundee Clubs United?

45

StockportJambo,

04/06/2009 13:39:07
So the likes of Arbroath, Forfar Athletic and Montrose merge to create "Angus United" or something similar.

That's so crazy it might actually work! Too bad none of these clubs ever see any TV money (Setanta or otherwise) so really, the smaller clubs are inherently unaffected.

As for the article (remember that?) - everybody knows that neither Rangers nor Celtic have Scotland's best interests at heart (only their own), so it's no surprise that the rest didn't listen to them.

Perhaps if Setanta had not been so OF-orientated, they might have got more subscribers on the back of their SPL coverage, and we wouldn't be in this pickle.
46

Andrew Sachs,

04/06/2009 13:45:51
45 - Yes, Stockport, Rangers and Celtic don't have Scotland best interests at Heart (only their own).

Can you tell me exactly how they differ from any other club in thjat respect. In fact, let me make it easier for you, can you tell me how they differ from Hearts in that respect.

I'll pop out to get the popcorn and a couple of tins of beer and then you can entertain me with an attempt to justify that pile of gash?
47

deecfc67,

thailand 04/06/2009 13:45:55
44 - exactly. why not? i'm sure a tayside club incorporating dundee, dundee utd and saint johnstone would potentially create one, strong club.

lots of people talk about the bus-loads of fans from every region heading off to glasgow every week. don't you think that a regional loyalty may be more evident if there was one distinct local team in each area?

as i said, there were protests before the inverness teams merged, with supporters from both sides claiming they'd never be part of it.
within a couple of seasons their crowds far exceeded those from all the other clubs in the lower leagues and they progressed all the way to the SPL.

again, i don't imagine it would happen, but when i see attendances of 200 quoted each week between clubs within a 30 mile radius of each other it makes me wonder.
would these fans rather watch their clubs go to the wall, rather than bite the bullet and form a single, stronger club?

all hypothetical and just my opinion...
48

Andrew Sachs,

04/06/2009 13:56:58
47 - In my home area, Falkirk, Stenny and the shire all play within a few miles of each other. An amalgamation of the 3 would not strenghten the New Falkirk team that much, but yes I can see the sense in it if the Stenny and Shire grounds were sold off and the resultant profit plowed into the new team.

Ironically, I reckon it would work to a greater extent in Dundee, however, I reckon thats where you'd see the biggest resistance to the idea. I know a Dundee fan and he loathes the Arabs. Would rather see Celtic beat them, but draws the line at Rangers.
49

frisnit,

Dundee 04/06/2009 14:13:11
I'd be surprised if Setanta can stay alive, their product in the SPL is terrible and compared to SkyHD for the EPL, it's a joke. Much as I don't want the SPL to be affected, I wish we were with someone else and maybe the biggest offer wasn't the best one as mentioned here.
50

deecfc67,

thailand 04/06/2009 14:27:01
48 - yeah, that's exactly where the problem lies, with the local rivalries.
it seems that the rivalries are so strong that they'd rather go bust than amalgamate.
ironically, i think if, say dundee fc went out of business. within a few years those ex dundee fans may well end up along to tannadice or to support saint johnston. maybe not the die-hards, but probably the next generation.
what choice would there be if they wanted to watch football?

what teams did the people of livingston go to watch before livi were created? i'm sure they must have been heading off along the M8 in either direction.

people just want to watch football, and most often, their local team.
hypothetically again, i think if you amalgamated the tayside teams, fife teams, stirlingshire teams, etc. overnight. after an intitial period of shock, horror and resentment, you'd find the single localised stadiums filling up.

the difficult part as always is initiating change. the thing is, with the way scottish football is going, there may end up being no choice...

ps. i'm only singling out tayside as an example of one region being divided by a few individual clubs. the same is true all over scotland.
51

Rosscobhoy,

04/06/2009 15:08:01
To anyone suggesting the "wee clubs" almalgamate. This makes no sense. Most fans would not follow the newly created team and that would make the competition even weaker. Why don't Hearts and Hibs join together and then they could have a 30000 following every week and compete with Celtic or Rangers?
52

Rosscobhoy,

04/06/2009 15:09:04
#50

The fans might do what Clydebank FC have done. Reform in the juniors and do it for the love of the game. 5000 of them were at Rugby Park on Sunday.
53

Pu1itzer,

Musselburgh 04/06/2009 15:14:38
Gentlemen - I wish to compliment you on this debate which has passed a pleasant 10 minutes or so for me.

No nutters, rsoles or trolls anywhere in sight.

There are some good ideeas being put forward here and I hope Mr McLeish is reading (henry not alex).

Keep up the good work
54

deecfc67,

thailand 04/06/2009 15:19:12
50 - sorry rosscobhoy, what happened with clydebank? i've been out of the uk for a while now. was it the junior cup final?

as for your post at 51, i know what you're saying, but i think it would catch on. as i said, i seem to remember there being real heated protestations when the proposal to merge the inverness teams first came up, but pretty soon everyone (mayne not EVERYone, i don't know for sure)was united behind a single club and they went all the way to the SPL.

there's always resistance to change, but afterwards people tend to accept it, then they get used to it.

ps. are you on CQN?
55

,

04/06/2009 15:24:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
56

Rosscobhoy,

04/06/2009 15:29:32
#54

Also, i know a few guys who followed Inverness before the merge, they watch Pollok now. Mostly as they work up here, but also as they cannot stand Caley Thistle. Also know a few Airdrieonians fans who no longer watch senior football as they consider Airdrie Utd a non team. For all it would attract some fans, i think it would alienate more.
57

deecfc67,

thailand 04/06/2009 15:33:05
55 - cheers rosscobhoy. the next "rumour mill" on e-tims should be interesting...
58

Monty_1,

DXB 04/06/2009 15:34:17

I'm not for a second suggesting that it would be easy and keeping the die-hards of these teams happy would be exceptionally difficult but its something that has to be looked at.

as deecfc67 has said the Fife teams are something to look at - you could create 2 teams in that area, each capable of mustering crowds of 7'000+ (I.C.T size). Now wouldnt they be better served than 6 teams scraping together a couple of hundred to a couple of thousand supporters??? An amalgamated Dundee and Dundee United has the potential of what 25'000?. The Angus teams could get 5-7'000 between the four of them. Lump Caley and County together and you could get 10'000 then do the same for some of the smaller Glasgow sides and then the Stirling area teams.....Ok those numbers are the top of what you could attract but wouldnt that be better than whats on the go right now???

Bigger crowds would generate more money - more money gets them better facilities - better facilities would get them better players (youth and those they buy) - making for better competition....

Its a simple idea with a lot of kinks in it but something has to be done - why not look into this??
59

Monty_1,

DXB 04/06/2009 15:44:19
I'm originally from the Dingwall / Inverness area and recall the uproar in the Inverness merger....years down the road and people have gotten on with it and most are pleased to see ICT where they are - well apart from relegation!! The town buzzed on a Saturday when Celtic/Rangers and co turn up and more than a few businesses had never had it so good...they wouldnt go back to how it was...
60

deecfc67,

thailand 04/06/2009 15:56:22
monty, @ 58, i'm 100% with you on this.

a country with such a small population, trying to spread it's football fans amoungst so many clubs. it may have worked before there was 24hour multi-channel tv, internet, playstations, etc., etc. but now it's turned scotland into a footballing back-water.

our lower divisions are barely above junior football in terms of support and facilities.

wasn't scotland, internationally and at club level, one of the super-powers of world football until as recently as the early 80's??

i think with a radical revamp from the bottom up, as prescribed by monty, we could at least be on a par with the likes of the portugese and dutch leagues ie. a 2-4 dominant clubs along with 6-8 strong, competitive clubs.

i'd expect that a maximum of 2 leagues of 12 teams each would make scottish football an attractive spectacle again. throw in summer football as someone mentioned earlier.

what's not to like...????
61

Gone Walkabout,

Guang Dong 04/06/2009 16:13:30
So, Aberdeen FC stood shoulder to shoulder with the BBs on this matter. For the record, as a Dons fan, I can confirm to you all that never before in the long and distinguished history of 'We told you so' has being proven right felt so..... dirty!

I seem to remember thinking at the time that taking Sultana over Sky was heading for disaster.
62

Rosscobhoy,

04/06/2009 16:25:01
Open Scottish football up and introduce a pyramid system. The current situation where no one can come in is what stifles it. No one follows the wee clubs cos there is no point. Albion Rovers, East Stirling, Forfar and the like, teams who will have one decent season a decade, there is no reason for young fans to watch them. Unless there is a good feeling associated with it people won't go after a while. Opening the league up will force teams to improve as they will no longer be guarenteed their subsidy from the SFL every year. As teams improve so will attendances. If that fails then look at other ways of improving it, but that should be the first step.
63

Rosscobhoy,

04/06/2009 16:26:25
#60

Some of the football i've seen played in the SPL is lower than Junior level. Most of the decent junior outfits would be competing in division 1 or 2 at worst.
64

Erstwhile editor,

New Haven 04/06/2009 16:43:10
I'm weighing in on this as an American SPL fan, and I will say that my heart sank when I read about the Setanta deal last year. Not because of OF concerns, economic ramifications, etc., but because, as frisnit says in post 49, Setanta's coverage of the SPL stinks. Any SPL game or show that is on the schedule is apt to get switched out at the last moment in favor of some truly obscure event that can't in any way appeal to an American audience. The media guy at my local sports bar says the same thing -- last-minute changes, excessive fees, etc. I happen to be a Killie fan, and I subscribe to Setanta online, since my cable company doesn't offer Setanta. For my $150/year I have gotten exactly one Kilmarnock game. For a little more I could have flown over and seen the game in person. Back in the day, I could watch Sky Sport coverage via the Fox Soccer Channel and see plenty of SPL games. As far as I'm concerned, Setanta is trying to guarantee that the US never hears of the SPL. Although I really hope they're healthy enough to pay what they owe, from what I've seen as a consumer I'm skeptical. I should have sent my money straight to Killie.
65

jouster,

perth 04/06/2009 17:17:49
" everybody knows that neither Rangers nor Celtic have Scotland's best interests at heart"

Why should they have? Does Aberdeen? Do Hearts and Hibs? Of course not. What a ridiculous contention.
66

Monty_1,

DXB 04/06/2009 18:01:08
You pay Setanta to watch it over the internet??? You must be a fan!!!! : )

I watch the SPL on either Kuwait Sports/Saudi Sports/ Al Jazeera - dont understand anything they say and that includes the players names - they have a weird slant on Scottish names. If I cant watch it on either of those channels on goes the freeloading internet channels broadcasted free by some technical wiz.

67

Bleeding Heart,

04/06/2009 18:19:38
#18 - "The problem with Setanta is that they aliented half their potential viewers with their astonishly one side coverage of old firm games, for example the love in with the Celtic fans sining YWNWA before the matches at Parkhead. I cancelled my subscription after the 4-2 game at the start of this season, as have just about every Rangers fan I know."

Nah. No-one is going to buy that. Why not just admit the wife told you to cancel your subscription?

And if you're from Livingston, why do you "support" Rankers???
68

Phil C,

04/06/2009 21:04:20
#51 Ross - "Why don't Hearts and Hibs join together and then they could have a 30000 following every week and compete with Celtic or Rangers?"

Because Hearts are a club teetering on the brink of extinction and Hibs have a tradition of actually trying to play football. Because Hearts under Mercer tried to murder Hibs and Hearts supporters don't see anything wrong with that. Because Hearts are the unionist Labourites to the the progressive Hibs Nationalists.

Oil and water don't mix.
69

Edinburghs only big team,

04/06/2009 21:39:37
#69 You been on the bevvy mate?

Hearts are a team that dominates the city of Edinburgh whereas hibs have gone some 57 years since last winning a major trophy. Thats extinction.
hibs have a tradition of actually losing always and having a far smaller fan base.


I am a Hearts fan and have never and will never vote labour.

Anyone seen my receipt for getting my moat cleaned? ;)

Achievement and failure don't mix.



70

Jambo Dave,

edinburgh 04/06/2009 21:50:04
69/Get over yourself you clown.Most Hearts fans I know were against the Mercer takeover and protested about it along with the Hibs fans.By the look of your post you wernt even born when it happened.With guys like you with your giant Hibs chip on your shoulder I wonder why we bothered.
JT for life.(But I still want the Hibs around for the odd Derby game)
71

Phil C,

04/06/2009 23:08:16
#71 I attended a derby game at Whinecastle when Hearts tried to pay a tribute to Mercer!!

#70 You speak in conundrums. You strangely call yourself "Edinburghs only big team" and yet you declare yourself as "a Hearts fan".
72

Bleeding Heart,

04/06/2009 23:38:27
#69 - More drivel from the Hobo with the biggest inferiority complex on these threads.

"Hibs have a tradition of actually trying to play football." Really? Says who? And Hearts don't I suppose? Again, says who?

Where is your evidence for this?

"Hearts under Mercer tried to murder Hibs and Hearts supporters don't see anything wrong with that."

Many Hearts fans opposed Mercer's plan. Why don't you know that?

As for trying to "murder Hibs", you do realise that Mercer was invited to bid for Hibs shares by the then Hibs vice-chairman David Rowland?

Probably not. But then, even if you did, you wouldn't let this fact get in the way of your anti-Hearts bigotry.

 

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