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Alien invaders face being exterminated

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Published Date: 10 March 2007
THE beautiful oak woodland at Coille Mhor, near Kyle of Lochalsh, is home to plants that are unique to Scotland.
Mosses and lichens that grow nowhere else in the world can be seen on the forest floor and the trunks of the trees, creating a local environment so distinctive it is officially designated a site of special scientific interest (SSSI).

But this fragile ecosystem is under threat, menaced by an aggressive foreign invader that, left unchecked, will choke the life out of the woodland.

Rhododendrons, introduced to Scotland from Africa in the 18th century, may be pretty, but they are also lethal.

"As soon as you get rhododendrons in there, they shut out all the light out and kill all the mosses on the floor of the wood and on the trunks of the trees," said Richard Luxmoore, of the National Trust for Scotland, whose volunteers have been battling the fast-growing invaders at Scottish sites, including Coille Mhor, for several years.

The rhododendron is one of at least 988 "invasive non-native species" in Scotland - unwelcome plants, worms, crustaceans, mammals and birds that scientists increasingly fear are threatening our ecosystem and even our economy.

For years, a ragtag alliance of wildlife groups, gardeners, birdwatchers, anglers and concerned locals have fought the invasion as best they can, trapping, shooting and uprooting the invaders in an effort to preserve the natural order of things.

But resistance has been piecemeal, with no central leadership and only limited support from government, and no clear plan or policy to help. Now, though, that could be about to change.

The Westminster government and the Scottish Executive are discussing a new UK-wide strategy that could result in renewed efforts to curtail the spread of harmful species or even eradicate them outright.

"The Invasive Non-Native Species Framework Strategy for Great Britain", a draft plan that has been circulated among government officials and ecology campaigners, outlines "a more preventative approach" towards the newcomers.

Effectively declaring war on non-native species, the strategy declares: "We should be guided by the principle that, where it is shown beyond reasonable doubt that a non-native species is having or is likely to have a substantial negative ecological, social or economic impact, and eradication or control measures are technically and financially feasible, acceptably humane and safe for people and native wildlife populations, then such eradication or control measures should be instigated."

Scotland will provide many battlefields in the war to come, foremost among them the River Tweed.

The river and its tributaries draw anglers from around the world, hoping to hook the king of fish, the Scottish salmon. Yet, in recent years, the Tweed and its cherished fish stocks have come under relentless attack from the signal crayfish.

Originally brought to Britain nearly 30 years ago to satisfy our increasingly cosmopolitan tastes, the American crayfish have long since moved beyond restaurants, also infiltrating the Clyde and its tributaries in Dumfries and Galloway.

The crustaceans are continuing their apparently relentless spread through the Tweed and its tributaries. No longer confined to smaller burns, they are now routinely found in main channels.

Everywhere, they voraciously devour the eggs of salmon and trout, threatening what is both a popular pastime and an important local industry. Only this week, the River Tweed Commission approved a new £20,000 project aimed at finding new ways of controlling the crayfish.

Nick Yonge, director of the Tweed Foundation, said moves towards a coherent national plan on alien species were "welcome but overdue". He said: "We have been almost in despair about the fact there is no single government agency to take responsibility for this, but it looks as if things could finally be about to change."

Professor Colin Galbraith, director of science of Scottish Natural Heritage, also welcomed the moves towards a single UK strategy. "We've got to get a collective view on alien species and the damage they can do - we're building public awareness, but there is much still to do."

As an example, he cited the grey squirrel, which carries a virus fatal to their smaller, indigenous red cousins. "People look at species like the grey squirrel and they're very cute and fluffy, but they can do real harm," he said.

INCOMERS THAT PEOPLE WELCOME


NOT every alien animal arriving on these shores is unwelcome.

Goosanders and mergansers, types of saw-bill ducks, arrived in Scotland in the 1950s as their range extended northwards.

It is perfectly natural for animals and plants to expand into new areas, and global warming is expected to bring more new arrivals.

Mike Donaghy, of WWF Scotland, said: "We have to allow natural migrations, the natural expansion of animals' range, to take place. Saw-billed ducks started coming up from the south in the middle of the 20th century - 100 years ago you wouldn't have seen them."

Trees such as the larch and sycamore are other non-natives which live in relative harmony with "native" Scots flora and fauna, while rainbow trout, sheep, cows and cats are all human introductions.

The wallabies living on an island in Loch Lomond and a fruit-bearing peach tree in Aberfeldy are more exotic examples. Ring-necked parakeets could also be heading Scotland's way if the temperature warms up a bit - they live and breed in the wilds of central London.

HEDGEHOGS

HEDGEHOGS were noted in the Western Isles in 1982, but only in 1995 was it realised how they harmed the wader population. A cull was started to wipe out about 5,000 hedgehogs, to protect birds such as dunlin, redshank and lapwing.

KNOTWEED

JAPANESE knotweed was introduced to Scotland as an ornamental plant in the mid-19th century. It spreads easily and is hard to eradicate. It out-competes native plants and can damage structures and road surfaces.

GIANT HOGWEED

GIANT hogweed was brought to Britain in the late 17th century. It grows to more than 15ft tall and each flowerhead produces up to 50,000 seeds. Its sap can blister the skin and each year people are harmed by contact with this plant.

BALSAM

HIMALAYAN balsam is an attractive invader that escaped into the wild from gardens. Often found along riverbanks, it outgrows native grasses, creating an ecologically harmful monoculture. It is hard to eradicate.

RUDDY DUCK

THE ruddy duck, native to the Americas, became a menace after escaping from bird collections in England and settling in Fife, Tayside and the Lothians. They wipe out native ducks through inter-breeding and competition for food.

FLATWORMS

NEW Zealand flatworms grow up to 15cm long, are pointed, have numerous eyes and prey on earthworms. Since arriving in the 1960s in imported pot plants,

they have cut some populations of earthworms to below detectable levels.

MINK

AMERICAN mink first invaded the countryside in the 1930s after escaping from fur farms. They are carnivores with a wide range of prey, including seabird chicks, which has led to the extinction of several seabird colonies on Scottish islands.

RED SQUIRREL

GREY squirrels threaten our native red squirrel with extinction, as they carry a disease fatal to reds and compete with them for food. The economic cost of grey squirrel damage to beech, sycamore and oak woodland is up to £10 million a year.

RHODODENDRON

RHODODENDRON is widely invasive and its dense growth means it can eliminate most other species from an area. Particular damage has been caused to mosses and lichens in woodlands in the west of Scotland.

SIKA DEER

SIKA deer are deemed to be forest pests because they eat young trees and remove bark. They also threaten the genetic integrity of red deer through cross-breeding. It is illegal to release sika into the wild or allow them to escape from captivity.

SWAMP STONECROP

AUSTRALIAN swamp stonecrop, aka New Zealand pygmyweed, is often wrongly sold in shops as Tillaea recurva or Tillaea helmsii. It causes problems in freshwater habitats, out-competing native species and choking ditches.

MITTEN CRABS

CHINESE mitten crabs, which grow to the size of a dinner plate, are heading up the east coast of England towards Scotland after arriving in ships' ballast water. They feed on salmon eggs and destabilise river banks by burrowing holes.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 10 March 2007 12:47 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Squirrels , Hedgehogs
 
1

Guga,

Rockall 10/03/2007 01:34:09

Testing

2

Guga,

Rockall 10/03/2007 01:35:23

I again ask why am I being moderated?

I would appreciate a valid reason. You know my e-mail address. let's hear it for a bit of Freedom of Information.

3

Bill, Dunblane,

10/03/2007 02:49:57

No news day then!

4

S.Macleod,

Inverness 10/03/2007 04:04:33

Rhodydangerous!

5

,

10/03/2007 04:22:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 432031, Article id was mapped to record!
6

,

10/03/2007 05:30:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 432087, Article id was mapped to record!
7

Tatiana,

Edinburgh 10/03/2007 05:55:05

I could mention invasive non-native species number 989, but I would be accused of being racist, so I wont.

8

www.scottwebb.co.uk.,

10/03/2007 05:55:23

Comment@3/4 Well I'm sure your more than welcome in Edinburgh.........i mean its not like your something OUTRAGEOUS.........like a politician :)

9

,

10/03/2007 06:40:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 432149, Article id was mapped to record!
10

,

10/03/2007 07:01:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
11

Scaramouche,

10/03/2007 07:49:25

They don't mention the once-populous but nearly extinct and definitely inimical and alien Tories. Wonder why??

12

Geoff,

South Africa 10/03/2007 08:16:04

What about the Scoti?
Should send them back to Ireland!

13

Paul Voltaire,

www.paulvoltaire.spaces.live.com 10/03/2007 08:27:15

Hedgehogs would probably survive longer if they didn't go for walks on the main roads.

14

Stuart F.,

Burnaby, B. C. 10/03/2007 08:45:55

Hey, what about gorse? That stuff grows like crazy!
See if the rhododendrens can compete with that stuff.

15

nell from falkirk,

10/03/2007 08:46:11

Is this an ad for the SNP?

16

von-Scharnhorst,

Berlin-Preußen (ex Bathgate) 10/03/2007 09:39:26

"14. dominie, Pathhead / 8:47am 10 Mar 2007

"The only areas where rhododendrons don't occur in the wild are Africa and South America."
I can assure you that your information is wrong.

Or do you think that Iceland, greenland, Soth Arctic, are on other planets?

SOME one seems to be.

17

von-Scharnhorst,

Berlin-Preußen (ex Bathgate) 10/03/2007 09:40:50

ANTARCTIC that should be.

18

Roo-barb,

Woopwoop 10/03/2007 09:48:19

#15 Does that include you?

19

Miss Jean Brodie,

10/03/2007 09:55:07

Plantist!

But this fragile ecosystem is under threat, menaced by an aggressive foreign invader that, left unchecked, will choke the life out of the woodland.

Imagine if we worded it like this . . .

But this fragile economy is under threat, menaced by an aggressive foreign invader that, left unchecked, will choke the life out of Scotland.

Depending on what yer thinking - is it true?

20

,

10/03/2007 09:59:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
21

MrsUU,

Banchory 10/03/2007 10:15:20

Only one species of Rhododendron is a problem - Rhododendron Ponticum - the one with the purple flowers that is growing wild. There are hundreds of beautiful Rhododenron species that do not spread but grow as small shrubs or trees. It is very important that the environmentalists do their research and do NOT kill all Rhododenrons. Several years ago in Caroline's Garden at Crathes castle this is exactly what happened. They chopped down some beautiful specimen plants that had been gathered by Victorian plant hunters and they were lost for ever. Unlike Ponticum, they do not grow back!

22

Falsyde,

HIGHLAND SEP 10/03/2007 10:33:38

#14 Thank goodness at least one person posting knows that the Genus Rhodendron has no species found anywhere in Africa. Rhodo. ponticum, as another poster pointed out is the pest species being referred to.

Another alien needing eradicated is Sitka Spruce - Picea sitchensis, the Forestry Commssion has effectively trashed our landscape with millions of them and they too are self seeding.

In terms of competence these two journalists seemed unconcerned by the absence of facts and get nil points.

23

theplantsman,

embra 10/03/2007 10:35:36

The fact is rhododendron have allelopathic folliage, which changes the chemistry of the surrounding soil which in turn inhibits growth of other, more native species.
The Victorian obsession with ornamental plants from exotic lands as well as exotic fauna have brought us some unforseen and unwelcome things to deal with - the Botanic Garden in Edinburgh was one place where Grey Squirrel were DELIBERATLY introduced, something they regret very much today.

24

theplantsman,

embra 10/03/2007 10:38:00

there is eveidence that R ponticum was present in Britain - that is, native - during the last interglacial period.

25

Em.C.Spiteri,

Heavens above 10/03/2007 10:39:49

Another illegal immigrant?
Whose's or whats's next? :)

26

Navvy,

10/03/2007 10:40:02

THICK, STUPID, IGNORANT, SLOPPY, LAZY REPORTING

About the only places they don't come from are Africa and America

27

Navvy,

10/03/2007 10:51:21

Further, moreover the national Trush and others get thousands of paying visitors who come to see them including the peoples cooperative semi republic of Gigha.

Lets apply the new rule, no more sweet corn, tomato grow bags, grape vines, peaches, rabbits, Robert the Bruce, all they folk wi Irish names, more space in Glesca then,

Mind you some of these do need to be cut back in the wild. Please include bracken, plastic bags, fag ends, empty cans and bottles, sweetie papers

28

theplantsman,

embra 10/03/2007 10:57:39

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=381022007#comment43...

Ms Brodie, this is the kind of over reaction which causes some of the problems. Whilst I'm sure your heart is in the right place on this, I should point out that the liklihood of Scotland being covered in Rhododendron is slim. R ponticum causes specific problems in specific areas, and should be dealt with at this local level.
The threat posed by this species to the Lundy Cabbage- Coincya wrightii- is very serious indeed: the plant grows nowhere else but on a 300m stretch of the east coast of Lundy Island off North Devon. Introduced ornamental Rhododendron has directly threatened the existence of the plant, and the two unique endemic invertibrates it supports. Thi is a fight worth fighting.
Ripping every Rhododendron out of every garden or rambling Scottish estate is not the answer

29

Boy Wonder,

10/03/2007 11:07:20

#27 " .. the national Trush .. " Are you drunk, Navvy???

30

Guga,

Rockall 10/03/2007 11:08:08

testing

31

Guga,

Rockall 10/03/2007 11:09:53

Why am I still being moderated?

Why don't you tell me? You know my e-mail address.

What's happened to the Scotsman's "belief" in freedom of information.

You are breaching my human rights by blocking me without just cause and without a reasonable explanation.

32

morris,

Edinburgh 10/03/2007 11:13:41

10
Interesting comment from someone who is in South Africa! I doubt that any country or any nation could claim to be pure anything. Whether it looks after its residents adequately is surely the test.That should include flora and fauna also of course.
However your comment deviates slightly from the subject under discussion. (Not that this is unusual on the Hootsmans pages)

Just for the record the Scoti traded with the indigenous people,but were numerically very small in numbers.Their language and culture became the dominant one,but in terms of genetic make up the Scots connections to the Irish Celts is not nearly as significant as many believe,but of course later in history there was a major arrival of Irish people just as there is evident around Mersey side.
Most Scots probably have Strathclyde Briton in their ancestry which would make them Welsh rather than Irish. Of course there are Viking Roman and all the other influences also. Jock Tamson evidently had a motor bike!
Mind you they are one of the earliest known modes of transport stretching back to Biblical times. It says in the bible " and the roar of Moses "Triumph could be heard for miles around"!
15 The SNP has always claimed to represent the majority view of people resident in Scotland.It has never sought otherwise.As I have pointed out on previous occasion
many members are of alien extraction.There are a few English people who have chips on their shoulders,and think that Scots residents wishing to declare their Scottishness (IE we live in Scotland)is somehow an infringement upon their Britishness. They live in Scotland too and qualify in exactly the same way.We are both nationalist! The difference is only one is imperialist!
The majority rule in a democracy.The SNP has never ever attempted to waver from this principle. We seek not to exclude anyone. The anti SNP movement seek to exclude the Scots from the right to self determination.

33

Sile,

planet gog 10/03/2007 11:18:56

Phew... read the headline being English I was afeared for my life.....

34

Jim Mac,

New Zealand 10/03/2007 11:23:13

Don't stress #22, the old Sitka Spruce is being cut down all the time. :)

35

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 10/03/2007 12:14:03

Our beloved heather(s) are also allelopathic. That mean a naturally developd Scotspine stands has taken somewhere in the order of 5000 to 10,000 years to develop to maturity.

Our own native species can be quite invasive too. I guess it depends on how far back we would like to turn the clock and to which point we wish to create statis in our environment (which, generally, only wishes to move forward and Mans influence, to some, is just a natural part of natures way just as many other species on the planet change their immediate environment to suits themselves to the exclusion of others i.e. our beloved heather(s) and rhodydodo's)

36

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 10/03/2007 12:21:00

Oh aye they are also deadly to livestock. For some reason sheep, cattle and goats love eating the leaves but it's not long until they are thrashing about in pain because of the excessive tannins in the leaves. We generally feed them tea to dilute the poison.

I agree, they need managed and managed hard.

37

Jimbu,

Alice Springs 10/03/2007 13:17:37

One of the most pestilential alien species introduced to the more temperate regions of Australia is - guess what? Our very own thistle.

38

Jimbu,

Alice Springs 10/03/2007 13:45:20

Followed closely by gorse and bracken. And a couple of lads fae Auld Monkland!

39

MackedEnglish,

Nottingham 10/03/2007 14:35:52

Rubbish can anybody name one native species the RUDDY DUCK has interbred with and wiped out, read the DEFRA garbage no doubt, another useless McLabour tax drain. Should read The Scot, became a menace after escaping from economic backwater collections in Scotland and settling in despised England. They wipe out naive native politicians and the English identity by destroying democracy, PC madness, and competition for English Tax Geld. Agree with #1 no news day then

40

Non!!,

East Britain 10/03/2007 15:50:41

Maybe this is what Blair means by cultural diversity.Complain too much about aliens and it will become another thought crime!

41

Charles MacRorie,

Washington State, U.S.A. 10/03/2007 15:50:54

Not all Rhodies are the same. Here in the Puget Sound we usually love them and there are hundreds of different varieties all around us. But the Pacific Northwest native Rhodie is a very tall, gangley species that has long thin branches that can stretch four or five feet tipped with a tuft of evergreen leaves that may be 15 inches across centered around a beautiful pink cluster of blossoms. The point is, they do not block out sunlight like other Rhodies do, and the old leaves fall scattered on the forest floor.

But what shocks me more is that your Rhodies spread so easily into the wild. Here in the Pacific Northwest our many species of exotics don't seem to.

Our number one distructive invasive species in the Pacific Northwest is English Ivy, and the number two is the tough Scotch Broom, while number three is the Himalayan Blackberry. They seem to be resistant or imune to all chemical treatments and they must be uprooted by main force to get them out. Are there any Scottish secrets for dealing with run-away ivy and broom?

42

Charles MacRorie,

Washington State, U.S.A. 10/03/2007 15:52:39

Please notice I am taking this issue of invasive species seriously.

43

Harry Carnie,

British Colunbia, Canada 10/03/2007 15:59:58

Interesting... Here where I live, we have a few of "your" Starlings. Some have mated with similar local black birds and fit in very well. Not the problem they are in the Southern areas of the N.A.Continent. One we have plant is"your" Dandylion.
They are everywhere, fields of yellow in the spring.
Actually beautiful. Animals, wild, and domestic, find them quit tasty. The tender leaves in the sping , along with our native wild onion , make a nice green salad. Bit of a bother in the flower and vegie gardens . But they compost well..after you get those ever so deep roots dug up.
What I HATE are the thistles, Russian, and Scots.
Suppose it is the same with "other" types of
"imports" some add to the mix and fit in well...others... we will not go there as the post will get turfed for being NOT P.C.

44

Martha,

10/03/2007 16:17:50

Here in Florida we have exotics that would make a purist weep. Worst offenders: Brazilian pepper and water hyacinth. There are innumerable other equatorial plants that grow well here, but are highly invasive, and of course lots of trees that have no business being here.

In addition to the flora, there's the fauna: notably, the Burmese python which is now a breeding population thanks to irresponsible owners who dump them in the jungle when the snakes get too big to handle. And equatorial birds not native to America, and of course those dratted rhesus macaques that were brought to Florida as part of a film set for the 1930s Tarzan movies.

People are so doggone stupid and reckless about planting; it boggles the mind. I plant ONLY Florida native or "Florida-friendly" plants; have three Key Limes growing in my side garden. These are unlike the green Persian limes. Key limes are much sweeter, and the fruit is small, round, and yellow. The interior is also yellow. I prefer the taste of the Key limes--far more subtle than Persian, which can be overpowering and the skin has an irritating oil in it.

We also have native Spanish and pin oaks coming along nicely, already draped with the epiphyte known as "Spanish moss" or "Spanish beard."

At the garden shops, plants are labeled as "Florida-friendly" or native, so it's easy to select them. Would that everyone did so.

45

,

10/03/2007 16:18:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 433411, Article id was mapped to record!
46

Martha,

10/03/2007 16:19:26

Harry: Dandelions like plantain are soil enhancers. They break up hard soil with their tough roots, making it possible for more delicate native plants to colonize after them. And yes, dandelions are very good for you, and delicious dandelion wine is a real treat.

47

Martha,

10/03/2007 16:22:21

Careful, Albajoe: the Spanish were in the southwest before the gringos, and the Native Americans were there first. So it's a question of history as well as present-day legalism.

I'm far more worried about the middle eastern invasives, since the Mexicans are hard-working and generally speaking, socially positive people.

48

nikiterry,

oregon-usa 10/03/2007 16:26:13

we have lots of moss here. Its a nuisance. I wander if rhodadundrums would work.
(Probally not the idea that this article was intended to provide)...also...blackberry bushes.
~Niki

49

moira,

Bangkok 10/03/2007 16:32:36

Can you tell me about rosebay willow-herb? Lovely splash of colour but not really welcomed is it?

Moira

50

Martha,

10/03/2007 16:34:39

Got a lot of moss down here too, growing in the shady damp spots. And epiphytes by the gazillions.

I really love the mossy groves of the Pacific Northwest. Would move there in a heartbeat but frankly am afraid of the volcanos.

51

,

10/03/2007 16:36:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 433452, Article id was mapped to record!
52

Martha,

10/03/2007 16:38:15

I just did an internet search for Rosebay Willow. It's an edible plant (roots and leaves), called "wild asparagus" in Canada where it also grows. Nothing about it being an exotic.

53

Angus,

Balloch 10/03/2007 17:11:26

Another grant sucking crisis for the SNH to get its teeth into.

Pity we can't have clean hospitals, increased policing and tter education instead of spending taxpayers' money on the ethnic cleansing of "aliens"

www.grey-squirrel.org.uk

54

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 10/03/2007 17:39:52

Angus

Well said balloch. You got your finger on the pulse cove.

55

Robbie,

NZ 10/03/2007 18:03:56

Any visitors to New Zealand would know that the Custom Officers, MAF (Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries) - our ‘ Border Patrol’ - are draconian is their search for ANY type of organic material being brought into the country, either willingly or unwillingly. They even have their own TV ‘Reality Show’ where tourists and migrants a like are fined (NZ$20.00) for smuggling in duck’s tongues, feet and other meats, cheeses and ethnic foods - all potential carriers of disease, also poor tourists who having put the ‘Airline-lunch’ apple in their bag still have you cough up for ignoring the many warnings and signs. They have dogs that can sniff out a mountain daisy or unfinished sandwich for a mile away.
It can not be understated what an invasive species can do to the economy of a country or the health of the native flora and fauna. Ignoring the obvious invasion of the human specious, especially ‘Homo Briticus’ ‘foreign invaders, insect, plant and mammal and bird have wrought havoc on the endemic plants and birdlife and now can threaten agriculture and farming. Controlling or banning the importation of anything that can be damaging to a nation’s economy, prosperity or existing environment should be always taken serious. Not allowing a pest to get started is easier that trying to eradicate it once it has taken hold. It is actually the UK colder winters that have helped keep some plants from thriving. However in reverse British or European plants brought to warmer climes quickly become serious pests as they are not knocked back in the cooler months.
Even although they are part of the same nation, consideration should be given to disallowing animals such as foxes, hedgehogs, rabbits, etc being taken to islands such as the Orkney, Shetlands, Hebrides or wherever they do not exits so as the preserve the local species. An independent Scotland should be prepared to look at how other small nations have suffered from importation of noxious plants and animals a

56

Robbie,

NZ 10/03/2007 18:04:48

#55 = NZ$200.00 not NZ$20.00.

57

Robbie,

NZ 10/03/2007 18:29:45

Sorry off subject but just read in ‘Scotsman’ that ‘Castaway’ is going to come to Great Barrier Island in New Zealand, http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=381032007
I hope they make sure they don’t try and smuggle in any ‘jammy pieces’, as the island is a reserve and is administered by the Department of Conservation. It is home to rare flora and fauna and endangered wildlife now thrive with the absence of predators. The island ( as are many islands around NZ) was made free from stoats, weasels, ferrets, deer, wallaby, hedgehogs, Norway rats and possums; some of the ‘cuties’ brought in from abroad.
I have never watch Castaway (or any UK/US reality shows) but would have a go at this and rooted for Scot Jonathan Shearer, then I read on, “Mr Shearer was generally dismissive of his fellow contestants….He said: "I have a strong dislike for the kind of deeply earnest, green, touchy-feely idiots whom I suspect you are going to populate your island with. They need me there to teach them how to live properly." And added about a second group: "I hate them all, they're not welcome and I hope they all die first, and when they die, we are going to eat them." I don’t think he’ll be the viewers choice in NZ.

58

dorothy,

New Mexico USA 10/03/2007 18:32:20

Here many cars sport a bumper sticker reading: We didn't cross any borders, Your border crossed us.

Horticulturally our biggest problem is probably willow and Russian olive in the alamo bosque (i.e. native Cottonwood wetland forest). That and the way so-called professionals (anyone with a ladder and a buzz-saw) hack off all the branches to "prune" trees in residential areas.

59

JG,

Fife 10/03/2007 18:45:00

#34 Rosemary
There hasn't been anything from you since about lunchtime when you went into the garden with that flamethrower. Are you OK? Have you barbequed yourself?

60

zigzag,

Tecumseh Ontario 10/03/2007 19:53:34

OMG DAY OF THE TRIFFADS

You are lucky that you have not been invaded by the DUBYA BUSH thus far.

61

zigzag,

Tecumseh Ontario 10/03/2007 19:55:57

52. Martha

How dare you say that canadian plants are not exotic...

62

Bill, Dunblane,

To those that know 10/03/2007 20:19:33

Thanks moderator (at last!) - but you really should have someone on duty on a Saturday.

63

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 10/03/2007 20:29:27

Lived next door to a Rhododendron (wonder if it comes from Rhodes) for the first 16 years of my life and there was only the occasional pruning from our side of the fence required.

The Knotweed, however, is posted as a danger in toilets on building sites as it can destroy foundations.

Anyone wishing to join the Knotweed party should contact....

64

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 10/03/2007 20:34:27

Robbie at 57. Scotland used to thrive without predators.

65

Cannyk8 canny w8t,

doesn't matter 10/03/2007 20:45:48

Lived with these aliens all ma life - love them - especially in the Spring. Purple, pink and white flowers eveywhere in the countryside - LUV THEM - THEY ARE NO ALIENS. THEY ARE PART OF MY LIFE.

66

Martha,

10/03/2007 20:59:12

Clearly Dubya and the CIA have been busily planting rhododendrens in Scotland, to confound the local populace and to deforest the entire nation. And no doubt MI6 is dumping snakefish into our rivers and planting water hyacinth and Brazilian pepper in Florida.

As for Canadian plants being exotics, please tell me what in Canada is in any way exotic to the United States, since we share a border that is over 3000 miles long and in some places you don't even know you've strayed into another country. "Your" birds winter here in Florida, and even farther south, dropping seeds as they go; and "our" moose and wolves and other large animals wander back and forth between the two countries exactly as freely as Mohawk Indians do.

Frankly having lived on the Canadian border, I don't think of Canada as anything but the attic of the USA with the party all going on downstairs. Canada is remarkably quiet, like an elderly maiden aunt, and keeps to itself. Plus it's snowing there ten months of the year, so really most of you have to stay indoors most of the time. But "our" Carolinian forest extends all the way to Toronto, so you can thank the USA for your ability to grow stone fruit around the Great Lakes. Otherwise you'd be gnawing on seal blubber for treats.

67

Robbie,

NZ 10/03/2007 21:34:26

64. Ken M, Stenhousemuir
Hi Ken, I’m not sure if I get your meaning, “.. Scotland used to thrive without predators.”
I’m not so sharp in my old days (can’t remember if I ever was sharp). Is there a hidden meaning or is ‘predators’ an innuendo for something or someone else. How many guesses do I get?
Predators of course play a vital part in their OWN natural environment as shown by Aldo Leopold in his classic
‘A Sand County Almanac’ the Bible of the early conservation movement.
< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldo_Leopold >"Conservation is a state of harmony between men and land."
It showed how wolves and other large predators kept the health of other species intact.
One wolves may be bad for one deer but ‘wolves’ as a species are good for ‘deer’ as a species. Not that I believe in starting to reintroduce them back in Scotland as it could cause worst environmental damage now.

68

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 10/03/2007 21:58:09

Martha. Thank you for the information but do we really need that kind of comment in the "Scotsman"?

I've been to America and found it pretty subdued. Maybe I should try Canada as I believe the old story is that everyone in Scotland has a relative in Canada. Don't know about the rest but I sure as hell do.

69

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 10/03/2007 21:59:42

Robbie, that should have been predator, not predators, as Scotland only has one.

70

I'm no really here,

10/03/2007 22:08:10

Wait until Hurricane Jeck has finished off those outlaw Badgers then he'll get after the rhododendrons.

71

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 10/03/2007 22:20:03

I'm not really here either (have you seen the crap on the telly?) but Fartwind Jack is a fan of Badgers - Labour Badgers.

72

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 10/03/2007 22:21:42

And bad gers reports

73

The Wizard,

OZ 10/03/2007 23:05:34

Robbie. Good Posts. Thanks for the info yesterday, had a look at Maungatautari--excellent.

Like NZ, the Aussie controls are always on the lookout for 'alien' species and it's unbelievable what some people try to import.
Rabbits, Foxes, Starlings, Sparrows and Cats have all had an adverse effect and now Cane Toads are spreading west from Queensland and are extremely poisonous if eaten by other species.. Sydney Wattle and Watsonia(from S. Africa) are both on the extermination list here in WA but are hard to get rid of.
It is better to keep alien species out that have to spend millions trying to exterminate or control them.

74

missing home,

CA 10/03/2007 23:12:37

I'm a bit divided on this issue, on the one hand survival of the fittest, and even if the species is not native, if it thrives then doesn't it belong to some extent? On the other hand, I hate to see the extiction of any species. Basically, I think we tend to try to police our planet too much, wipe out this, that becomes a problem. Wipe out that, this becomes a problem. I'm happy with the diversity of plants I have, even those that may be none native, maybe especially for those that are none native, otherwise where would I see them? Moderation is the best policy, I welcome 'invaders' for the most part, into my garden, almost feel honoured! But then, I'm an immigrant here and don't mind them either.

75

The Wizard,

OZ 10/03/2007 23:13:52

Probably the best example of dangerous species was when the Bush family were allowed to settle in America.

76

Robbie,

NZ 10/03/2007 23:42:56

73. The Wizard, OZ
Good afternoon Wiz, (from me) and good morning to you and for any Northern Hemisphere not out partying or having a bedtime read, oval tine or ‘whatever’ good night. The dangers to a country’s bio-diversity (especial us Antipodeans with unique species) is growing all the time due to global trade and more containers and goods (such as tyres) that can harbour all sorts of weed-seeds, disease-carrying mozzies, plus those who through ignorance, greed or even maliciousness try to smuggle in possible harmful organic items either dead or alive.
For those who think it is a ‘joke’ the New Zealand honey industry (once about the purest in the World) was hit when some unscrupulous person managed to smuggle in some ‘Queen’ bees which unfortunately had the ‘Varroa Bee Mite’ until then unknown in NZ but "On the 11th of April, 2000, Beekeeping in NZ changed Forever!" just because e some greedy person thought they knew better. http://www.mossopshoney.co.nz/edu_varroa.php?bg=resources
It has wiped out thousands of bees, nearly all the native bees and just recently (despite vigorous efforts) reached the South Island. The economic cost is enormous as these bees pollinate the many orchards in New Zealand and for Kiwi fruit , citrus and humbled apple growers this pest had wrecked havoc. Who was that poster that keeps on about ‘Evolution’ and the ‘Survival of the fittest’. Bringing in potentially ruinous alien species is not evolution or ‘nature’s way’. Sorry got a bit side tracked.
Areas like Maungatautari-are becoming ‘fairly‘ common in NZ. Karori in Wellington, Bushy Park outside Wanganui http://www.bushypark.org.nz/ and many offshore islands are made ‘predator free’ special; intruder fences are need ed on the mainland and native species reintroduced. It brings the silent bush back t

77

up in years '23,

west coast U.S. 10/03/2007 23:52:38

When you find yourself able to do so, drive down the coast roads of Oregon in springtime for one of the loveliest natural treats anywhere, giant rhododendron all natives of that state prize, pastel colors beyond belief on blossoms that hardly allow leaves to show, the vast Pacific at the west a visual relief.

78

Robbie,

NZ 11/03/2007 00:03:37

74. missing home, CA
“ I'm a bit divided on this issue, on the one hand survival of the fittest, and even if the species is not native, if it thrives then doesn't it belong to some extent? On the other hand, I hate to see the extinction of any species. “
Please have a glance at my post #76 - sorry it may be a bit long winded but basically , ‘Evolution’ and the ‘survival of the fittest’ does not come into it when it is human activity that is causing changes.
Because some one brings in a plant that ‘they’ like and it harbours a bug or disease that wiped out all the fruit trees in Scotland or California and wherever would ‘they’ have this right to bring it in because it was pretty and they liked it? We are wiping out species at an enormous rate and it is not until there are fewer choices of fruits or products like ‘honey’ reach a price that only the rich can afford will ‘the ‘survival of the fittest’ school give more serious thought to the place of endemic life forms in a particular environment.
ALL these problems of importation of noxious organisms are multiplied exponentially when we discuss island nations like NZ, Australia and say Hawaii or islands in the Pacific where US planes have accidentally brought in snakes that dined well on unique island fauna driving them to extinction.
Remember it doesn’t take much to unsettle the balance of nature (read the ‘Land Ethic’ - some time) one cat in NZ belonging to a lighthouse keeper destroyed a whole species of bird the ‘Steven Island Wren’; gone for ever no more -extinct; but the lighthouse keeper had his right to own a pet cat

79

Syrsa,

Florida 11/03/2007 00:33:57

#20 Hello therr Wee Berty.. you don't seem to know that gorse and whin are two different types of bushes.. gorse has thorns whereas whin is smooth...
cheers ...

80

Jimbu,

Alice Springs 11/03/2007 00:39:42

Hullo,Wiz! The ubiquitous cane toad has invaded Darwin and is now travelling down towards Katherine and definitely headed in your direction across the Kimberely. Thank god we're in the desert: but then again, these fellahs seem to be able to get in anywhere. I'll repeat your last comment to the lads from Auld Monkland.

81

Jimbu,

Alice Springs 11/03/2007 00:59:21

There's only one way to slow the cane toad down and that's by puttin' them on a bus. But seriously 'though; with the amount of monsoonal rain we've had in the Top End - the whole Top End was completly cut off there for a while - those damn toads should be all over us in no time. The eradication programmes in place so far, are proving futile. There seems to be no stopping them. If they get down here, well just neuk 'em. It'd make no difference to the appearance of the landscape.

82

The Wizard,

OZ 11/03/2007 01:01:03

#74

I am with Robbie on this one.
Examples. Starlings introduced to Australia do enormous damage to cereal and grape crops over east. Here in WA a fortune is being spent trying to keep them from becoming established. My wife and I have just come back from doing voluntary work with the Dept of Ag checking out areas where Starlings have been reported.
Cane Toads. Imported to Queensland to control some bug in the cane fields. It was a failure and now they are spreading westward. They have poisonous glands and any local species eating them (Snakes, Lizards) will die.
Cats and Foxes brought here by the original white settlers. They decimate the local fauna who have no natural defence against such cunning killers.
This is not 'survival of the fittest' or 'natural selection' it is just an example of man's complete
indifference for the natural world.

83

missing home,

CA 11/03/2007 01:07:52

Robbie #78 and more, I get that, it's just that I don't think you can freeze things into an always was always is and always should be, even if you want to. Things happen. Yes, we are like a pox on the planet but things would still happen if we were not here, the coconut that falls, rolls into the ocean and lands God knows where? If it roots and thrives might that not have been meant to be? This planet like our languages is in constant flux. Maybe it needs to be. This plant depletes, this plant enriches, maybe they need to be replaced once in a while kind of like the earth needs to tilt to balance used/unused resources. I don't know, I just love all plants / creatures most of the time, but ah hae ma days whaur nane's safe!

84

Jimbu,

Alice Springs 11/03/2007 01:13:55

Weeshooie & Wiz. I love a suburnt country, a land of sweeping plains, da da de da and da da dum, of droughts and flooding rains. Phuque me!!!!

85

Cristo,

USA 11/03/2007 01:14:29

Islam's cult is the most dangerous and ferocious spicies in this planet. second is the Redneck the 3rd are the haters of America.

86

rod8,

11/03/2007 01:26:48

Paul hogan lives!

87

rod8,

11/03/2007 01:29:47

the present only touches thee!

88

saddened by the law,

Teresa canada 11/03/2007 01:40:51

Martha,
If you feel the need to comment on Canada, its climate and its people, could you please take the time to get your facts straight. You say you lived on the border for a long time...and yet you state we experience 10 months of winter...not sure which border you lived on or if you ever took the time to look out your window but we get exactly the same weather if not better than many of your states. You state that we keep to ourselves...is it any wonder if this is an example of the intellect existing on the other side.

89

missing home,

CA 11/03/2007 01:54:58

Wiz#83, there's nothing I like better than a good Aussie shiraz. Is that a native grape? I bet it's brought in good money and if dealt with properly non invasive. Things happen that are good, things happen that are bad, short term pic. Long term pic may be quite different.

90

Robbie,

NZ 11/03/2007 01:56:55

missing home #84
Hi - you say, : “I don't think you can freeze things into an always was always is and always should be, even if you want to. - Things happen. “ You bettcha things happened and what the Wiz , I and many people who worry about the preservation of the diverse natural environment is that things don’t keep on happening, ie., species extinction - caused by habitat loss or introduction of predators or weeds for someone to make a buck.
The example Jimbu and the Wizard of the ‘Cane Toad’ and my example of the ‘Varroa Bee Mite’ show not only how introduced creatures affect native wild life but how they can affect human life both economically and people’s quality of life. Those people who claim to follow ‘Animal Rights‘ or ‘Animal Liberation‘ and release mink and save hedgehogs from places they should never have been brought to in the first place, really y get me so frustrated. They seem to be unaware of what real conservationist or more correctly preservations espouse to protect species. Do not intervene or intervene as little as possible. I’d ask the ‘Animal rights’ campaigners (I must admit I know little of their cause only what I’ve heard in the NZ media) what remedies (if any) you would they advise concerning the plagues of cane toads is Queensland or the spread of the Varroa mite in New Zealand? Would you leave them alone as they are living creatures despite the horrendous damage they are doing? Or help wipe them out as an invasive species but perhaps argue for their preservation in their native habitat.
If they ‘Animal Rights‘ are for preserving them - then they condemn another species ie., the bee (especially the harmless native bee) to extinction. If they say destroy it its only a mite - they risk being seen as advocating ‘speciesism’ and animal rights gurus, such as philosophers Tom Regan and Peter Singer would be condemning them. In all discussions things must be looked lat ogically, not solely emotionally which is the r

91

The Wizard,

OZ 11/03/2007 02:35:47

#87 Missing Home

Glad you enjoy a good Aussie Red but make the most of it. As I previously posted, introduced Starlings are a major threat to the Wine industry.

Sorry to harp on about it but the following is worth noting.

Starlings are among the world's worst 100 invasive species.
They are a major threat to grain, grape and olive producers.
They foul wool by perching on sheep looking for ticks etc.
Reported in the USA as causing damage in every state except North Dakota and Alaska.
Estimated damage US$800 million per year.
Can roost in flocks of 100,00.
Also in USA, droppings accumulated beneath roosts found acting as a medium for the growth of a fungus (Histoplasma capsulatum) which is the causative agent of the disease Histoplasmosis in man.
Implicated in the transmission of 25 diseases including Psittacosis and other diseases of humans (Gautsch et al. 2000)

Enjoy you Red.

Wiz

92

The Wizard,

OZ 11/03/2007 02:43:47

I meant to say

Can roost in flocks of 100,000

93

Robbie,

NZ 11/03/2007 03:36:45

87. missing home, CA
“ Wiz#83, there's nothing I like better than a good Aussie shiraz. Is that a native grape? I bet it's brought in good money and if dealt with properly non invasive.”
Shiraz grape variety called Syrah in France, and was known as Hermitage in Australia up to the late 1980s, (hence one of Oz‘s most prestigious wines - Grange Hermiage Gets its name from Shiraz, the city of flowers, wine and poetry in Iran. Interesting subject - as the importation of vines from one part of the World to another was one of the greatest examples of what the Wiz and I are talking about. Read about ‘’phylloxera’ which devastated the European wine industry in the early 129th century. Here’s an extract:
“In the late 1800s the phylloxera (an aphid) epidemic destroyed most of the vineyards for wine grapes in Europe. Phylloxera was inadvertently introduced to Europe in the 1860s, possibly on imported North American vine stocks or plants. Because phylloxera is native to North America, the native grape species there are at least partially resistant. By contrast, the European wine grape Vitis vinifera is very susceptible to the aphid.
The epidemic devastated most of the European wine growing industry………” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylloxera
agricultural industries are always vulnerable to an invasion of some new pest or disease and best way to prevent this is by strict border controls and banning of suspect imports.

94

missing home,

CA 11/03/2007 03:37:32

Starlings are apparently a problem here too, though can't say i've seen many here, maybe more an east coast thing, I do appreciate that things can go horribly wrong, kudzu, knotweed etc but have to think 'why are these species so successful? Are we missing something? Don't agree with people deliberately introducing alien species just because, but don't understand why starling pooh on wool would be a big problem other than 'ewww' since the wool has to be washed and processed anyway. And, you bet, I'll be doing my bit to contribute to the Aussie and New Zealand wine trade, slainte!

95

missing home,

CA 11/03/2007 03:43:46

Robbie, I knew Shiraz / syrah was not native and I am aware of the rather ironic situation where old French grapevines had to be replanted with upstart california stock which came from France in the first place,, but still, do you not think there's a natural survival thing lurking here? are we the only ones still up? It's quarter to eight pm here.

96

Harry Carnie,

British Columbia, Canada 11/03/2007 04:06:46

#66 Martha...you are wrong about Canada.

It can actually snow on 11 months of the year.
Not kidding... where I live, have seen in EVERY month except July. Of course we DO get summer..these snowfalls in the "summer" months
June, (July) August are unusual..and the weather is mostly great, with nice long sunny days.Our son likes L.A. better(no accounting for taste)

Have never tried to make dandelion wine(wife and I)
But have tasted it ..can be quit good. My aunt, when my sister and I were kids, made a batch..she used too much yeast and for a while my cousins, and our parents could not go into their basement ,as the glass bottles would explode like hand grenades..
They had to wait for a week or two, before they had all spontaneously blown.
Enjoy your green..we will have leaves on the trees(starting) at the end of April, and garden planting end of May, after the last frost .. a contrast is it not?

97

Robbie,

NZ 11/03/2007 05:00:55

93. missing home,
“ Robbie, .. are we the only ones still up? It's quarter to eight pm here.”
There are folk on the more political forums - but they should be sleeping.
I find this sit quicker than most to give the World times. < http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/ >
Being paged for dinner venison (free from a friend) and Aussie wine at NZ$6.00 a bottle (about US$4.00)
How the poor exiled Scots live today - better than the kings of old.
Have a good evening

98

Toronto Tam,

11/03/2007 06:30:34

Martha @ #66

You ask "what in Canada is in any way exotic to the United States? "
That is easy to answer, an educated population that understands and respects differences between one country and another.

You go on to say
"Frankly having lived on the Canadian border, I don't think of Canada as anything but the attic of the USA with the party all going on downstairs. Canada is remarkably quiet, like an elderly maiden aunt, and keeps to itself. Plus it's snowing there ten months of the year, so really most of you have to stay indoors most of the time. But "our" Carolinian forest extends all the way to Toronto, so you can thank the USA for your ability to grow stone fruit around the Great Lakes. Otherwise you'd be gnawing on seal blubber for treats.

Instead of your attic analagy, I prefer to think that we in Canada are the Brain attached to the fat slothful body down below. You may have lived "on the Canadian border" but your ignorance of your neigbour to the north knows no bounds.
Yeah we all live in igloos as it is the only way to survive 10 months of snow, any other form of shelter would simply collapse under the weight of the snow. However, thanks to superior American technology, which was generously donated by the
US government to the impoverished Canadians, our igloos now have running water (still cold) inside toilets and for the very fortunate and wealthy, internet connections.

Puleeze! Look at a map and you will see that Toronto is further south than many places in the US.

Your ignorance knows no bounds.

99

Toronto Tam,

11/03/2007 06:38:10

Rhododendrons are an intrinsic part of the Scottish landscape and are one of the things that I miss most. I loved going for a drive with my parents or going fishing with my dad around Loch Lomond, Loch Long, Loch Fyne or Loch Awe. There is no more spectacular place in the springtime than Scotland, the bluebells, daffodils, snowdrops AND Rhododendrons all bring back fond memories to me.
I have tried for the last 20 years to grow Rhodies in my garden here, the first one died after about 6 years and the current one is still with me but has never grown larger than about 3 feet tall.

100

Friend-at-large,

Compliments for Canada 11/03/2007 09:35:06

It's so lovely in British Columbia and I found the people quite nice. Yukon Territory was interesting when I was a kid as there were ghost shells of buildings from the gold rush days.

I want to see Lake Louise someday. Also Cape Breton for a music festival. Quebec...

Canada is huge and diverse, rural to sophisticated.

I was delighted when the Canadian government indicated they could police their own waterways, no need for Bush to intrude. Whew, it's good that there was that polite assertion.

There are long stretches of land with clean air. Population is a little sparse in some places. Perhaps making one's own entertainment (and this can be making music, talking to one another, hiking all bundled up, making taffy, making dandelion wine) is a way of keeing the brain alive. One of my cousins worked at the Canadian Embassy in Seattle years ago. She had shared some of what she learned with me.

I'm glad the neighbors have some sense.

This is The Scotsman but it needs to be acknowledged that Canada (with many Scots ex-pats) is doing fine and elicits favorable response worldwide.

Vancouver, BC is a world class city. Victoria was charming.

Toronto Tam, I happen to know where your city is even though I haven't yet visited.

101

Angus,

Balloch 11/03/2007 12:43:44

#98 says, "This is The Scotsman but it needs to be acknowledged that Canada (with many Scots ex-pats) is doing fine and elicits favorable response worldwide."

Not when it continues to massacre thousands of seals annually by bludgeoning them to death!

102

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 11/03/2007 15:26:13

See link below for corruption throughout our Judicial System

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WhJUjhequ4

103

Harry Carnie,

British Columbia, Canada. 11/03/2007 16:14:17

#100..Angus...Please think a bit..and this is NOT said unkindly. There is nothing cuter than a wee "moose". How would you feel if people protested about your trapping them in your Kitchen?
If you were overrun with them?A bang on the head is a quick death (used on farm animals)There are thousands of seals...sooner or later the population would "crash"( they would starve to death.terrible) because there would be insuficient food....This is because our cod fisheries were mismanaged and there are hardly any cod.(.but that is another sad tale.)..Seals cute as they are, do not have social interaction ,and relationships as the WHALES. Who sing and play together.
When the public protests the seal hunt...they draw attention AWAY from the fact that Japan ,Norway and Iceland are still hunting these beautiful ,intelligent, animals. The A$$ H@les who suport the whale hunt drag up satistics(doubtful) as to how "population numbers indcate a hunt can be suopported"...This is similar to saying we have "enough lassies" ..we can murder a few
Do you understand the point?..have a good afternoon/evening.

104

Cristo,

USA 11/03/2007 16:30:53

These are beautiful species and harmless compared to the species called Islamists.

105

Harry Carnie,

British Columbia, Canada. 11/03/2007 16:36:23

Martha...you are correct in stating we do share the plants and animals. Your "crack 'about Canada
being the "maiden Aunt' had me in stitches.
You can tell us Canadians when you meet us. We have these wee chips on our shoulders.
As to keeping indoors...we do ski a lot (with me Xcounty) Sking ... Do we have a choice?
Right now we have had another 20cm. of new snow
(8 inches for you Yanks) temp -6C (22F)

At one time I could say how wonderful it is here in the atic..socially . politically, morally, but we are rapidly sinking to your level..so will NOT throw any stones your way ..too much glass here nowadays .
ALWAYS ENJOY YOUR POSTS..(do not always agree..) keep it up ..and have a nice Florida day

106

zigzag,

Tecumseh Canada 11/03/2007 17:12:40

66. Martha /

You are right Martha...you do have something different in the US of A...Its Cheney, Bush and air head Martha who is misguided by her own publicity...

You should take geography 101 and may be raise the IQ of the USA just a teenie weenie tad.

107

Robbie,

NZ 11/03/2007 18:25:03

104. zigzag
I listen to politicians rude and insulting. TV programmes like ‘Coronation Street’ and Eastenders’, I don’t watch either but every time I catch snatches of them - it bad temper and trading insults. I spend some time on these forums and there is sometimes (not too often) people who like to insult and abuse and I can never understand why?
It does give an insight into their personalities perhaps but honestly do you or anyone who uses rudeness feel good inside after. I am broad minded and can accept most debated issues but worry that the adversarial nature of debates blocks any chance of winning a person to your way of thinking. Hey practice kindness instead of vileness and I bet you grow happier each day (there that’ll make some boak - but it’s so true).

108

zigzag,

Yecunseh Ontario 11/03/2007 21:34:20

105. Robbie, NZ /

Obviously you have not taken time out to read all of Martha's vitriolic rantings against others including me..I would suggest that your bonne homie would be better directed in her direction.

I've been to Auckland and the Kiwis are awesome...the word BOAK makes me wonder if you are not really a scots and I hope you have not lost the scots harsh humour and also how we dont suffer fools easily. vis-a-vis Martha

109

zigzag,

Tecumseh Ontario 11/03/2007 21:36:51

106. Cristo, USA /

I did not know that the:

"Islam's cult is the most dangerous and ferocious spicies in this planet."

I always wondered if the RED HOT CHILLIE PEPPERS were islamist.

110

Clif,

US 11/03/2007 22:03:47

Gifford Pinchot received some of his forestry training in Scotland and as I recall was introduced to a method called silvercultre. It is my impression that this term implies a very deliberate forestry management process, teaching that just as if one leaves a weed in a garden; if it is not weeded out it can eventually get out of control. Pinchot also attended some other European forestry schools that I could not determine in my google searches. I also was not successful when I googled for the forestry school or schools in Scotland. As I recall there is a forestry school a few miles West and North of Edinburgh but my recall from my trip last year is now bordering on no call and is therefore mostly unreliable. A guy named Olmsted designed central park in New York City New York USA and, as I recall, their initial association was at the Biltmore Estates in Ashville North Carolina USA and an area with abundant rhododendron. In that area I can easily spend quality quite time just a few meters off any major road in the Smokey Mountain National park surrounded by Rhododendrons that completely cancels out the road noise and I would be enormously in error if I did not compliment their beauty when in bloom. My point is that in the early 20th century those great forestry schools in Scotland precipitated an international meeting of the minds of individuals with an appreciation for beautiful plants which likely would be the source of what is now by some considered the thorn in your side, rhododendron. But I hope you will reconsider and prune to enjoy rhododendron for its beauty.
Pinchot was a major contributor to our USA National Forestry and National Park Service and could have helped facilitate this rhododendron introduction but those forestry schools I have no doubt produced many other Foresters of merit as well and any of those students could have been the source.

http://www.centralparknyc.org/<

111

Clif,

US 11/03/2007 22:22:04

Oops the silverculture was in France. I may be all wrong?? Where are those Forestry schools in Scotland?? I am sure I read that in “Playing God in Yellowstone.”

Pinchot was educated at Exeter and then Yale, graduating in 1889. After graduation, his family supported further education at L'Ecole nationale forestiere in Nancy, France, where he studied silviculture, or forest ecology. It was in Nancy that he learned "le coup d'oeil forestier—the forester's eye, which sees what it looks at in the woods." In his 1947 book, Breaking New Ground, Pinchot noted that it was in France that he began to think of "the forest as a crop," that forests could sustain human use by a "fixed and annual supply of trees ready for the axe."
http://www.bookrags.com/Gifford_Pinchot

112

Clif,

USA 12/03/2007 00:10:58

I noted one fly fisherman also having a problem with the Rhododendron and would suggest tying flies from the list of flies below. In the US, generally if there is a good population of the mud fish, crawfish, there is also a good population of fish that will take the crawfish lure. Also, the red Squirrel is a type fur that is used in some of the crawfish patterns and a hunter could possibly use his successful harvest of said creature toward an aquatic feast beyond the first squirrel and dumplings feast.
http://flyfisherman.com/ftb/Full%20motion%20Crayfish.pdf
http://www.flyfisherman.com/ftb/statlermudbugs/index.html
http://flyfisherman.com/ftb/brcrayfishlist/
http://shop.flyfishing.about.com/fly_archive/results.htm?...

And lacking success in catchin the fish with the crawfish patterns get a seine and seine the crawfish and prepare as they do in Cajun country and consume as in eating good old southern US of A fried chicken. Grab a pint O that Ale and begin the meal. And if you ain’t got grease up to your elbows your haven’t really been really eatin crawfish and/or Southern Fried chicken. In addition, a link to some Cajun music is provided to add to the ambience. Enjoy
http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?genre=search...
http://www.pandora.com/

113

Robbie,

NZ 12/03/2007 00:32:38

109. zigzag
Thanks for the reply. I didn’t really mean to signal out you Zigzag - sorry as you weren’t in the high scores -insult wise but often (specially in the political forums) the insults and abuse get so that decent debate is lost.

This could be the main problem with adversarial political and legal system as it almost always sinks to a slanging match and there are many top class people who could make a difference to any of our parliaments who would not dream of entering politics because of the personal abuse.

Whatever the name calling such as, tree-hugger, cargo-cultist femo-Nazi - bleeding heart liberal - fascists and worse the main thing is does it do what the name caller sets out to do? Does it persuade another to the ‘cause’?
Does it show the intellectual capabilities of the name-caller or the opposite? If it does not win over a doubter then what’s the point; especially as one MAY side with that person on another forum.

I am a great admire of John Stuart Mill’s views as expressed in his essay, ‘On liberty’ but feel too often people misunderstand ‘free speech’. His views and mine are that citizens have the right to freedom of expression concerning their political, civil, personal and social liberties (in private they can do what they want as long as it does not ‘hurt’ another nor take from that other‘s personal liberty). Free speech does not mean that one can stand outside one’s neighbour’s door and scream obscenities at him. In the same way whether you or I feel there is no harm in joining in with a gang of friends to hurl abuse at a fellow citizen calling them ‘poof’ - ‘monkey face’ - ‘black bas**d’ then that is a complete misunderstanding of ‘free speech and freedom. One cannot enjoy freedom by taking another’s away. Serious name calling is a violence and breeds violent attitudes and fro some it leads on to physical abuse. Still most importantly people start feeling good when polite to each other even they disagr

114

Robbie,

NZ 12/03/2007 00:57:28

112. Clif, US
Hi Cliff - you note that Gifford Pinchot, “…began to think of "the forest as a crop," that forests could sustain human use by a "fixed and annual supply of trees ready for the axe.” This is of course what made Pinchot a ‘conservationist’ [conserve nature for the use of mankind] as compare to his one time friend John Muir a preservationists [preserve nature for it‘s own sake] When Pinchot advocated the damming of the ‘Hetch Hetchy Valley’ and was successful - this ruined their friendship and was said eventually hastened Muir’s death.
Any Scot interested in nature and the environment should read about John Muir - the ‘father’ of the American environmental movement, who was born in Dunbar, East Lothian. A Scot who helped save wilderness areas for posterity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Muir
Also interest concerning predators and invasive species Aldo Leopold’s ‘A Sand County Almanac’ containing the classic essay, ’The Land Ethic’. Here’s a summery of Leopold at Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldo_Leopold Great men.


 

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