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Fury as 'notorious' fingerprint team in McKie case offered deals to quit

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Published Date: 13 September 2006
The six fingerprint officers have been offered severance packages Experts stand by findings as union brands move 'harassment' Experts cleared in three enquiries and parliamentary enquiry is underway
Key quote
"I have enormous sympathy for the SCRO officers. Some of them are very experienced and have given very good service in the past, but my job is to ensure that criminal trials are conducted properly and that we have a criminal-justice system in which people have confidence. - COLIN BOYD, LORD ADVOCATE

Story in full THE fingerprint experts at the centre of the Shirley McKie affair have been offered a deal to leave their jobs in the wake of the notorious case, it emerged last night.

The news came as Scotland's most senior law officer, Colin Boyd, the Lord Advocate, told MSPs it was unlikely that any of the fingerprint officers who wrongly identified a print as Ms McKie's would be called as experts in court again.

He said the case had become so notorious they would risk compromising another trial if they were to give evidence.

The approach was made by David Mulhern, who is overseeing an action plan to modernise the Scottish Criminal Records Office (SCRO).

Unison said that six officers had been offered early retirement, redundancy or redeployment within the police, but the union branded the move as "harassment".

Fiona McBride, one of the officers involved, said they refused to become "scapegoats" and would fight to remain in the service.

Ms McKie, a former detective, was accused of perjury after her fingerprint was misidentified at a murder scene in 1997. She was later cleared and paid £750,000 in compensation.

The case led to more than 20 investigations including the latest parliamentary inquiry into the SCRO, the body which identifies fingerprints in Scotland.

The fingerprint experts involved in the case vehemently stood by their findings throughout and last week Jim Wallace, the justice minister at the time of the case, apologised for the stress caused to them.

However, in the last hearing of evidence of the parliamentary inquiry yesterday, the Lord Advocate said it was unlikely the four officers who originally identified the fingerprint as Ms McKie's would give evidence in court again.

He said: "I have enormous sympathy for the SCRO officers. Some of them are very experienced and have given very good service in the past, but my job is to ensure that criminal trials are conducted properly and that we have a criminal-justice system in which people have confidence.

"My concern is that if any of the officers were to be called as witnesses, their position, frankly, is now so - and I don't mean it pejoratively - notorious."

He added: "It's well known what the officers' position is.

"The trial involving them might very well become a trial of them, rather than of the person accused.

"That is something that I would want to avoid."

He also told MSPs that the advocate-depute who conducted the perjury case against Ms McKie believed there was other evidence against her, but this never came out at trial.

Anne Russell, Unison's regional officer, said it was "outrageous" that the offer should be made in the middle of a parliamentary inquiry.

She added: "It is even more outrageous that these threats are being made by an individual who is not even their employer.

"If David Mulhern thinks that this Draconian approach is the way he intends to manage staff in any new service, then staff will be thinking twice, if not three times, before they transfer.

"Individuals should not be able to play fast and loose with employment law and with parliament's activities in this way.

"Unless these threats are withdrawn, Unison will be talking to our lawyers, to the staff affected and to the staff as a whole to decide our next steps in backing our members' rights."

Ken McIntosh, the Labour backbencher representing the experts, said: "They have had three inquiries into their behaviour and have been cleared by all of them. It would be absolutely disgraceful if this sort of ultimatum has been put to them now, in the middle of a parliamentary inquiry as well."

Mr Mulhern refused to explain his offer.

He said: "As you will respect, any discussions between an employer and employee regarding their terms and conditions are a private and confidential matter with the individual concerned. Taking this into account, we have no further comment on this particular matter."

Cathy Jamieson, the justice minister, who also gave evidence to the parliamentary inquiry yesterday, defended the decision to settle with Ms McKie out of court.

She revealed that the £750,000 the former detective was awarded was less than the £1.2 million plus interest that Ms McKie had been seeking.

She added: "I came to the decision on what was the best way forward and I stand by it."

Asked by the convener of the inquiry, Pauline McNeill, if the Executive had settled out of court because they might have believed there was malice involved, Ms Jamieson told the committee the settlement was made on the basis that there had been a misidentification of the print, but that no malice was involved in that.

Page 1 of 1

 
1

Jock MacSprog,

13/09/2006 00:39:41

we have an incredible tolerance for mediocrity and incompetence in this country, from builders, to trains to police to polititians. The concept of accountability and personal responsibility is almost non-existent.

2

Malky,

Glasgow 13/09/2006 02:16:54

Mike - Joe public tends to take their "lead" from the ruling party and the PM. If they see spin, rhetoric and lies being peddled by their government then, in my opinion, they see no difference when they incorporate these values into their own system.

3

Guga,

Rockall 13/09/2006 03:21:25

Mike, I agree with every word you say. The problem with it all is that the taxpayer ends up paying for this incompetence and mediocrity, either directly or indirectly.

4

Juvescot,

Arran 13/09/2006 04:29:17

Jamieson should be offered a package to go. Hopefully she would take 'Joke' McConnell with her.

5

Curious,

Melrose 13/09/2006 05:44:11

I agree with Fraser in principle but why offer them a package?

6

Paul Voltaire,

13/09/2006 06:36:42

Shirley McKie has got her money.
Surely she should now disappear before all this bitterness consumes her.
SHe was treated very unfairly.
We all know that.

7

calum,

Edinburgh 13/09/2006 06:37:42

How sad that it shopuld all have come to this. It seems that the stubbornness and intransigence of supervisors at SCRO in the early stages allowed this snowflake to develop into a giant snowball with the result that previously excellent reputtations have been ruined, health has suffered, politicians have covered their backs and the Scottish Justice and legal systems, once held to be a model for the rest of the world, is left in tatters. What a sad indictment of our system.
No-one in the system has graced themselves, I hope the guilty ones can recconcile their consciences with that.

8

Jammy Dodger,

prestonpans 13/09/2006 06:51:38

They should all be sacked, forget about any package of compensation, but of course by doing so they may exposes other people who were involved in this shambles

9

Dave1956,

13/09/2006 06:52:50

Seems to me that Wallace is the one that should be in the dock.

His actions throughout have been a disgrace.

10

David,

13/09/2006 07:13:39

The real issue in the Shirley McKie case is who or what is being protected by the refusal to hold a judicial enquiry. Shirley McKie would welcome it, the six SCRO experts are loudly demanding the opportunity to have their views known.

Who is hiding from what?

11

Spacepimp,

13/09/2006 07:14:57

SCRO have nothing to do with this issue at all. The Fingerprint Officers were from Strathclyde Police and not the Scottish Criminal Records Office. The Fingerprint Officers from all over Scotland will be coming under the banner of the Scottish Fingerprint Service (SFS)whose head quarters will be co-located with SCRO, but that is it. As for Anne Russell from Unison, I think that she should be more concerned with the huge numbers of Support Staff from Strathcylde Police who could sue her personally as well as Unison for not acting in their best interests under Equal Pay legislation and rather than threatening legal action, she should be campaigning for better training for these Fingerprint Officers to ensure that the potential for these mistakes is limited.

12

Jock McStrapp,

13/09/2006 07:21:12

It seems to me that the whole system of fingerprint analysis now needs to be overhauled, to move it from the realms of opinion into the realm of incontrovertible proof (where it belongs).

After that, the actions of the fingerprint team and their masters (who put McKie through all of her unnecessary misery) need to be re-examined minutely; and all of those responsible for the juvenile nastiness that was inflicted on her sacked and stripped of their pension rights.

Finally, her compensation package should be reviewed, and then topped up substantially from the seized assets of those who victimised her - and NOT from the public's pocket. That might be justice.

These judiciary workers have been well paid to further the cause of justice - they may be in default on delivering that service on this showing, and should expect penalties.

13

Synchronicity,

13/09/2006 07:22:44

What's the problem here?

These 'experts' failed to provide an adequate professional service. They must be held accountable; after all, they have cost the taxpayer a lot of money. You have all been baying for blood so far as accountability of lawyers is concerned. This is no different.

14

Synchronicity,

13/09/2006 07:24:47

On second thoughts, I blame the executive and their Civil Servant advisors - they need to get their priorities right.

15

C,

Paisley 13/09/2006 07:29:22

When they go, can I get the job? Act incompetently, be found out, bring your profession in to disrepute, continue to get paid for not doing your job then be offered cash to go away?

16

Alberto.,

13/09/2006 07:31:25

So! Another 'top of the shop' face saving move gets under way in the 'Fingerprint' case!

Jamieson says her decision was the best way forward - for who? Another face or two perhaps!

Colin Boyd talks about maintaining the quality of the Justice system - does he not read the daily papers, not only to make himself acquainted with what appears to be the farce of some Judicial decisions - evenwhen guilt is proven , and admitted? Almost on a daily basis there are comments in the press - from the general public, about the disgraceful activities of the Judiciary in their 'awarding' of some ridiculous and sometimes unbelievable penalties to the criminal element - and sometimes none at all!

How, and from where, did the First Minister,Justice Minister and the Finance Minister suddeny find their pockets overflowing with 'Taxpayers' money to make the McKie payout, when from almost day one and continually since, these 'groupies in charge' have, seemingly, sung together in harmony that there is nearly always, for many things, a 'No Funding' crisis!

Will the lies never stop!

17

jdships,

13/09/2006 07:31:53

No1 post by Mike sums up this sorry mess in a nutshell.
"Today's police , politicians , infact anyone in national authority , hid behind the uniform and the rule book"
A statement made to me recently by a retired senior police officer.
Oh how true !!
After ten years of being subjected to spin and general political untruths no wonder accountability and personal resposibility is a thing of the past
A sad state of affairs
"It wisnae me . It wis a big boy and he ran away "
Ah michty me !!

18

Spacepimp,

13/09/2006 07:31:58

Philip (12), I agree with you regarding the fingerprint analysis quality assurance and from my own knowledge I am aware that this case has had a massive impact on how these matters are dealt with. Each Police Force now has a Quality and Compliance Training Officer attached to it's Fingerprint Bureau and there are also IT systems that are able to compare prints and check against prints held on file at SCRO. With regard to her compensation etc....I don't think that this is necessary, there are many officers who in the course of duty come under suspicion themselves and it is important for them to go through such procedures even if it is purely to admonish them in front of their peers. People do make mistakes and whilst I appreciate the severity of the mistakes made by the Fingerprint Officers, I don't think that they should be stipped of their pension rights or sacked. Don't forget, there was no reason why McKie couldn't have continued working. I'm not downplaying what she went through, merely stating fact.

19

mr chips,

13/09/2006 07:55:07

Why are the executive running scared of a judicial enquiry,what have they got to hide.They hand out £750.000.00 of public money and dont give a satisfactory resason apart from jamieson spouting, that shirley mckie wanted more.The whole thing stinks.jamieson said: "I came to the decision on what was the best way forward and I stand by it."Please explain jamieson the public need to know.

20

GP,

Greece 13/09/2006 07:57:53

Surely this whole debacle is about truth.
On the one hand we have so called experts disagreeing about whether or not the fingerprint is or is not identified correctly. So far as I am aware I have seen nothing to categorically show which set of experts are correct. Fisrt investigation = find the truth of this.
Then we have the secondary problem that of the treatment of a police officer staying off work and compensation. If the officer was sacked then compensation may be due if fact one is found in favour. As yet unproven.
Compensation = admission of error and recompense for loss of wages etc.
Very few people who are sacked illegally get such large sums.
The next stage is the lack of serious investigation, of management and political interference in jobs and reports.
The public failed by the media once again!

I would suggest a complete legal investigation by independant police offciers from a serious crime squad from say Yorkshire or elsewhere plus independant lawyers then processing any legal actions necessary. An independant judge from outwith Scotland would also be required.
No opt out by anyone no matter what position they hold or held. Also a full report made public with no option to delete or reduce content.

So basically trust could be re-affirmed with our judicail bodies.

21

DAVID,

Edinburgh 13/09/2006 08:14:42

Typical Trade Union stance from Unison - defend the members even when they're wrong.

Typical of the whole of Scotland really......people are more interested in the interests of producers or suppliers rather than the consumers or taxpayers or someone who has suffered at their hands.

22

Resolutions,

13/09/2006 08:22:22

Somewhere TRUTH is being hidden?
Why? Why? Why?

Time ALL was out in the open.

23

Grant,

Balerno 13/09/2006 08:31:27

If I make a mistake in my job I get fired ! Not escorted out the back door with a big brown envelope !

24

Liberal Nature,

13/09/2006 08:36:02

Socrates,
Let us assume nothing and start at the beginning.

If the McKie case had gone to court, evidence would have been presented by both sides that would have been judged using the " balance of probability" test of Scottish civil law. Hence the basis of the Scottish fingerprint testing would have been revealed and compared against expert witnesses of world renown. The nature of the Scottish testing and the subsequent "containment" of the Establishment response to the McKie resistance would have been fully documented in court.

Whether that evidence et al would have found in favour of Ms McKie or not, we shall never know, because the Executive settled out of court. We might consider that action to be an admission of "guilt", but we not KNOW that.

The outcome of all this is the beautiful fudge beloved of Britsh Civil Servants and Politicians alike. In that fudge, many things can be hidden...not least the reason that the McKie print "was" at the original crimescene.

25

Alex.,

13/09/2006 08:37:45

Boyd is correct. If I was being tried on fingerprint evidence verified by one of these experts I would certainly expect my defence counsel to challenge the competence of the fingerprint expert.

26

.,

13/09/2006 08:41:00

I've not followed the case closely, but I can't see how individuals can be vilified if the systems in the organisation aren't working properly.

Fair enough it does appear that there has been something sinister at work in the McKie case, but how many genuine identifications have these people made? Probably a lot.

Maybe they need to get some people in from similar organisations to help sort it out? I'm not sure what value a parliamentary review is given these people will know very little about how the whole system works.

27

Calum10,

13/09/2006 08:42:16

The canteen culture of support your colleague even if they are wrong can be traced from the SCRO - Strathclyde Police - Procurator Fiscal's Office - the Lord Advocate - Jim Wallace and the Scottish Executive - and finally Unison. The whole Scottish justice system has been badly trashed by an overwhelming need to convict the innocent. To this day the police have not re-opened Marion Ross murder case

28

Jock McStrapp,

13/09/2006 08:47:50

#18 - fair comment - but she was put through it to no mean extent and lost her career in the process, so I'd still tend to look for some sort of redress that would send a message to future would-be 'experts'.

Let's agree to differ :o)

29

Anne,

Aberdeen 13/09/2006 08:52:07

The politicans who awarded Ms McKie cannot be seen to be 'wasting' public money by paying off 'this purveyor of her own truth' so they are clearly scapegoating the SCRO officials at the alter of their own careers. SHAME on you! If the 6 SCRO officers had been guilty then I am sure that the internal investigative machine would have concluded that 9 years ago!!

30

Big Wee Man,

Aberdeen 13/09/2006 08:54:12

The moral cowardice that enslavement to Tony Blair's fantasy view of the world brought us (backed up by ruthless rottweilers like Campbell) seems to have found an ally in a long-standing Scots lack of confidence in our local ability to find leaders. It is precisely because of this very deep self-doubt that William Wallace (a la cinema) looms so large in the popular consciousness. His giant image inspires while real moral midgets bring us down to earth.

Jack McConnell sounds like a half-educated stooge while Cathy Jamieson is a national embarrassment for a politically-self-serving refusal to comment for a huge length of time on a justice issue (i.e. part of her job) that was convulsing national confidence. It is not so much a case of mere incompetence as of utter inadequacy that reflects back on the one who appointed her to a sensitive position. This one case has done more to convince me (brought up in a real socialist household) of the sheer Trade-Descriptions-Act deceit of Poodle Tony and his local puppies than all the betrayals of this so-called New Labour set.

How dare these people call themselves Labour? The merest whiff of national ownership escapes them and we are being sold down the entrepreneurial river by New Labour flunkies at a rate that would have been far beyond Thatcher's wildest dreams.

Most of all, common decency and the moral high ground that was always defended by socialists, has been lost to a corrupt, undisciplined, feeble and fundamentally-dishonest charlatanism based on the grossest self-seeking. It's not so much tough politics and trough politics, and disgusting to watch.

The enormity of betrayal suffered by a loyal police officer, Shirley McKie, should outrage all Scottish people, regardless of political affiliation. And the depth of cover-up and corruption chokes anyone who likes fresh air. The innocent are condemned while the guilty retire with a clean record because the Scottish way is to pretend it never happene

31

Cynic,

Dalkeith 13/09/2006 09:06:10

If a ballot were to be conducted concerning the efficacy of the criminal justice system, I'm afraid Mr Boyd would be rather surprised to learn that the majority of the public have lost confidence in the judicial system. It's true that a defence lawyer would try to discredit the finger-print officers in future trials but the test should be their credibility at the end of the day. Should a defence lawyer try to discredit any of these officers, then the prosecution should be given the right to attack the accused by disclosing all previous convictions and other relevent material showing the bad character of the accused. Let's have the same rules for everyone during a trial. Incidentally, it's not the first time witnesses with tarnished backgrounds, rightly or wrongly, have given "the truth and nothing but the truth". The Lord Advocate's Department is the world's worst for makaing mistakes, yet they're still in business to commit further glaring errors that prejudice public safety.

32

Tormod,

Edinburgh 13/09/2006 09:07:39

David 24, the famous print on the door frame was proved not to be McKie's. The SCRO experts said they found the 16 points of comparison, In court their evidence was blown out of the water, if you have a distinctive pattern on your thumb, this pattern should match the print. It didn't in the McKie case as shown by Pat Wertheim.

This whole case stinks more a week old box of herring. I saw Newsnight last night and the four SCRO officers and Des McNulty etc still say they got it right, really!! I could take all day about the justice system, boyd, jamieson and wallace. I have to take responsibility for my actions in my job and personal life. It's about time our state functions followed.

33

,

13/09/2006 09:16:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 67174, Article id was mapped to record!
34

Robert Feal-Martinez,

Swindon 13/09/2006 09:51:43

The bottom line here is whether deliberately or just because errors these people were wrong. It is time they admitted it and went away quietly for them not just casts into doubt the whole finger print officer profession. Just another nail in the coffin of the publics faith in the honesty, integrity and morality of the Criminal Justice System which we can do without

35

CHIC,

Ayr 13/09/2006 09:52:32

These guys didnt have a chance. This week we found out that within 7 days of the SCRO correctly identifying Mckie, her father was in the Divisional Commanders office demanding a rexamination with Shirley standing over the officers as as it was carried out. We all know that police officers require a certain amount of arrogance, over the last 7 years iain Mckie has shown to have more than his fair share. This is more about his reputation than that of his daughter. Using his & SNP MSP Mike Russels media contacts he very quickly created all this media spin (Scotsman, Herald BBC). The SCRO officers foolishly believed that the senior management in the SCRO would defend them. When the First Minister, Justice Minister and Lord Advocate are faced with a one sided media campaign on the left and every opportunistic MSP on the right. The SCRO officers didnt have a chance. I have not mentioned the McKies 'experts' if the media and the politicians consider them to be men of such 'High Standing' and say it often enough, it must be true.

Roll on the Asbury civil case then perhaps the Crowns incompetance will come to light. Surely the Exceutive dont think they will get away with a settlement again.

36

Dave1956,

Eastleigh 13/09/2006 10:22:35

36#37#38#39#

Tell me.

What is it that your suggesting?

That shirley Mckee is actually guilty of somthing or that these so called fingerprint experts are wrong?

I have to say you sound like apologist's for people who would have been happy to see an innoccent person going to jail.

I personaly believe that the named politicians above were complicit in a cover up and the so called experts were prepared to go along with this to save their blushes and reputations.

Now we have one of the above posters trying to not
only to further blacken the reputation of Mckie's father but also re-write so called facts.

Are you in some way related to on of the so called experts?

You certainly sound like you have an agenda.

Sorry for any spelling mistakes or grammer

37

Transparent?,

Kirkcaldy 13/09/2006 10:32:25

Bruce #30. You mention David Kelly along with Shirley McKie as being victims of New Labour.

Before the turn of the century, I severely criticised both Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. In June 2000 I suffered a blocked artery, was taken to hospital and signed myself out the following day. Three months later I was offered a double by-pass operation which I refused. Why?

I have good reason to believe that Blair and Brown have been using the NHS to kill anyone who dares to criticise them and the NHS Medical Staff are not even aware of it. Their primary reaction to a new hospital admission is to deal with the symptoms. The cause is dealt with afterwards and in my case, I believe they got that wrong.

I believe I was poisoned with a blood clotting agent at the behest of Gordon Brown & Tony Blair. The fact that I'm posting this today, six years later and no operation, should tell you something. It's not enough to simply vote these people out of power.

38

ziz,

Manchester 13/09/2006 10:32:54

The SCRO didn't want the Truth, like the Strathclyde Plod, they simply wanted a result.

39

CHIC,

Ayr 13/09/2006 10:36:47

Dave,

I am just pointing out some of my observations.

Another observation.....

99.9% of those who comment about SCRO/McKie/Asbury have an agenda.

I want a full judicial inquiry where politicians and alike actually have to answer questions not talk around the answers!

What is your agenda?????

40

Dave1956,

Eastleigh 13/09/2006 10:40:31

insider

You are of course correct I should not have put 40#
on my post, sorry.

However I am just concerned that some posters seem to be placing doubt on Mckie's innocence which i believe she is.

41

neil f,

13/09/2006 10:47:45

Dave - you are missing the point.

The system for identifying a finger print was defective.

It takes a lot for the authorities to own up to this. Easier to remove the experts and quietly change the system without acknowledging it has been wrong all these years.

42

Dave1956,

Eastleigh 13/09/2006 11:00:43

Neil

At least their changing the system, is that not the point?

The fact that they offered the Mckie woman that compensation indicates that at least they are acknowledging that they were in the wrong.

dos'nt it?

43

Sid,

Falkirk 13/09/2006 11:06:43

Who can smell the whitewash? Hutton would be proud of the conclusion thats going to be reached in this parliamentary inquiry!
As said earlier all parties seem to want a judicial inquiry except the politicians. Why? Boyd and Jamieson have got their prints all over this debacle and are hiding something.
Shirley has been treated disgracefully and has lost more than she has gained financially.
To the SCRO 4 take the deal.
To the taxpayer vote out all that have cost us millions and lets not lose sight of the fact a woman was murdered and no-one is in prison with a life term murder conviction.

44

mr chips,

13/09/2006 11:10:39

38. Chic, Ayr /44/blah, blah blah,

45

mr chips,

13/09/2006 12:09:15

The six fingerprint officers have been ordered to accept severance packages or be sacked. Will cathie jamieson explain to the public why this has come about if they have done nothing wrong.

46

Andrew, Peebles,

13/09/2006 12:31:32

Neil, your comments have a ring of truth about them. However, the experts maintain not just that they identified the fingerprint correctly, according to systems in place, but that the fingerprint is that of McKie. Which it wasn't, and which is why the position of the Executive is utterly baffling. They are shouting about 'honest mistakes' when the fingerprint experts maintain that the fingerprint is McKies, despite overwhelming expert opinion to the contrary.

I have little sympathy for them.

47

Emergent,

Stourport 13/09/2006 12:50:33

There is no such thing as a certain test. All that a test does is to change the probability - a test on its own never makes a certainty. Because we are taught only Math-World Maths at school (and not Real-World Maths) we all believe the myth that numbers and tests are certain (this is only true in a simple, closed system if at all). Fingerprinting probably is only about 80% certain though it has never been subject to proper scientific and statistical scrutiny so we don’t know (http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?Story_I... or search Google with the words “fingering fingerprints”). So if we need to blame anything it is the “system” – a system that requires people to be ‘certain’ when there is no such thing as certainty.

48

Sanny,

Portugal &UK 13/09/2006 12:51:47

JD @ 8
I totally agree with Jammy’s opinion. That these people made a mistake is bad enough, but understandable. What is unacceptable is that they tried to railroad an innocent person rather than admit their mistake, then they closed ranks on a cover up. These persons should be sacked for incompetence without any compensation whatever. Further, consideration should be given to a charge of attempting to pervert the course of justice. The head of the department should also be asked to resign.

The Union reacts as to be expected. Never mind the truth! What about our members ? The best thing Maggie did was to bring some sort of order to these thugs that pose as (Union) leaders. I say this after forty years of working both as a member and working with them as management.

Having read the remaining comments it would seem that there is a consensus that this matter should be followed up. Unfortunately the politicians will ignore us. Remember this come Election time in May.

49

WW,

13/09/2006 13:13:13

There were dirty deeds done here and a full and properly independant inquiry is the only way to clear up the mess. The failure of Jamieson and Boyd to clearly accept such a position surely suggests that they and others may have something to hide. We are constantl;y reminded of our great democracy and yet on issue after issue the government is allowed to say no or create their own enquiries and that is the end of it. We the public must demand more.

50

WJohn,

Galifray 13/09/2006 13:22:22

The solution is elementary.
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
The only certain facts are:-
The SCRO officers are correct and the fingerprint is that of Shirley McKie.
Shirley McKie has not been present at the crime scene where her fingerprint was found.
Therefore at some time in the future Shirley is taken back to the crime scene in a time travel machine. Obviously at present she has no knowledge of this.
This theory is more credible than the proposition that someone is attempting a cover-up.

51

A different Paul,

13/09/2006 13:35:10

Other than Marion Ross the SCRO officers are the biggest victims in all of this, they have made no mistake (Lord Johnsons summing up in Shirelys perjury trial basically tells the jury to take her on face value and ignore any evidence)
Mulhern is trying to pay these officers off so, he thinks, the whole cloud will go away. Unfortunately it won't. The very simple truth is still to come out.

The officers, shattered though they are, have a bit of fight left in them, even then Mulhern cannot pay off Peter Swann, John Berry, Malcolm Graham, the Danish experts...
Yesterdays evidence at the SCRO was very informative, Bruce McFee helped clarify that the Police are not seeking anybody else for the Marion Ross murder.
Alex Neil helped Colin Boyd clarify that the locus logs were not as accurate as the McKies had hoped, Boyd knew of 5 officers who were at the scene who weren't logged, if there were 5 then it's quite feasable there were 6.

Cathy Jamieson admitted that the expert source for the decision to settle was John Macleod, and that no contrary expert opinion was sought (balance?)

Shirley McKie got £750'000, the man convicted of the murder (freed thanks to the sterling efforts of Iain McKie) looks set to get £250'000, the scro officers are being offered nowhere near this, they've had their careers, reputations and family lives destroyed, simply for doing their job, and to a higher standard than the McKie experts.

Unison is fighting for them, that is what trade unions are there for, even if the experts were guilty Unison would still fight, the fact that they have been cleared of any wrong doing, have been cleared of any malicious intent, and actually have significant independent support for their identification means that Unison is right to fight for them.

Yesterday Alex Neil suggested that the experts were guilty until proven innocent, they have never had the chance to clear their name before a judge. When the McKies cut

52

Sid,

Broxburn 13/09/2006 14:44:52

Part of the problem that has been overlooked is the nature of the SCRO organisation and management. What we need here is a fully civillianised service and not one managed by senior police officers, serving or recently retired. Many of these officers think they are the real experts when clearly they are not. They hold the office of constable, nothing more nothing less. They are not experts in the various management roles they fill. Once this happens then perhaps we will see less bullying and harrassment and the dogmatic attitude of 'we are right'. I have no sympathy with the SCRO 4 but again we can see them being bullied out, but on what legal basis if it was an 'honest mistake'?

53

P. Hugo,

Texas 13/09/2006 14:50:24

What I want to know, with all that work on the alleged thumb print, surely they identified to whom it REALLY belonged. Yes? No?

54

TimW1234,

CANADA 13/09/2006 15:05:00

Mike #1 I agree with you entirely but unfortunately incompetence, slipshod work methods, outrageous acts of professional misconduct are endemic all over the world.

Scotland is just part of the whole world-mess of lazy thinking, incompetent officialdom, and general lowering of standards throughout Scotland specifically and the world generally.

I also note that certain bloggers are jealous and envious of the settlement given to Ms. McKie. Get over it! She went through hell for years and the police union is protecting its own and acting as if they could never, ever do anything wrong in carrying out their duties.

55

P. Hugo,

Texas 13/09/2006 15:06:20

I think it is very comendable that this whole thing was properly sorted out. I don't understand those 4 'finger print experts' taking that rather foolish stand: a disputed print?

56

Jonesy,

holland 13/09/2006 15:28:07

Whats the problem. Think of the damage these unskilled people have caused already to Shirley Mckie and the taxpayer. Incompetence is being rooted out at long last.

57

Tom01,

Surrey 13/09/2006 16:06:47

No surprise this. Whether guilty of incompetence or not it is a typical Civil Service move to try and encourage them to go. If they were sacked CS would still have to pay some compensation. If I were one of the six I would hang on in there and try to negotiate a better package to make it more worthwhile.

I know this from my former experience as Civil Servant of having seen inflated payouts being made to save embarrassement of Employment Tribunal or Civil Court proceedings.

58

David,

Canada 13/09/2006 16:13:50

I apologise for not being able to read all the comments, but I did want to add my two cents (about 4 pennys)

Anyone who presents themselves as an expert in a field has a certain moral responsibilities as well as legal ones. Morally the have to tell the truth (even when they are not in court) and if the have not told the truth or have misled then they are legally liable for those untruths or errors. Consultants or their employers buy "errors and ommissions" insurance for this reason.

These people were employeed by the government so there is no insurance but the government is still liable for their action.

Whether these people should be asked to retire or be sacked; I think they should ber sacked because they would not admit their mistakes and there bosses should also go because the boss must aware of their action which makes him/her culpable also

Dave

59

Giffnock Tim,

13/09/2006 17:03:22

I have always found this case strange. Whether we like it or not people are often charged with offences in respect of which they are subsequently acquitted. Many spend time in custody. No damages are paid to them (I'm not referring to the cases where people are convicted and years later the conviction is quashed). So what made Shirley McKee different?

Also strange in this case is that the SCRO experts were not alone in supporting the Id of the print. Shirley McKie's own expert did that before being sacked. How many experts did she go through till she got the answer she wanted?

I reckon that possibly fingerprinting is not the science we were brought up to believe since it's clear there were disagreements between the experts. Since I can't see any legal basis for settling the McKie case I think the Exec probably did not want to bring fingerprint evidence under scrutiny with impact that might have on other convictions.

Also lost my remaining sympathy when the MCKie family looked for contributions towards a fighting fund of 50k AFTER she had received 750k damages.

60

mr chips,

glasgow 13/09/2006 17:52:08

61. P. Hugo, Texas /This whole thing is no where near sorted out. Who,s print was it/ , who killed marion ross?.

61

Paul,

13/09/2006 18:23:06

Rab, please follow the links in post 57, they may assist you.

62

mr chips,

13/09/2006 21:35:59

Nope ,no help, who is guilty of what?.

63

Mike,

Essex 13/09/2006 21:44:57

David (10) asks who is hiding from what.The answer to what is probably fears that the evidence in Lockerbie case would be looked at again.Fingerprint evidence was key to getting conviction.The answer to who is doing the hiding is not clear but I guess they are higher up the ladder than the people being discussed.

64

Avril, Inverleith Skate Park,

13/09/2006 23:07:48

#69, Mike,

A very perceptive observation. Was Lockerbie "allowed to happen" as an act of appeasement?

Once upon a time, a person's "mark" was sufficient biometric identification. Written signatures followed. Then, fingerprint science came along. The biometric Gold Standard!

"Guilt" depends on proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Defence Counsel exist to provide juries with that doubt. The Crown faces an increasingly difficult struggle to prove guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Biometric identification is being promoted as the saviour of probity. It will be stored on computers. Wey, hey! Computers are the least dependable tools ever invented.

"Unsafe Conviction" does not = "innocent".

Pop down to your local High Court and sit in the public gallery. It's free and it's your right. Far more stimultaing than Coronation Street or Emmerdale.

65

Michael G. McKay,

Fredericton, New Brunswick Canada 14/09/2006 00:44:37

I have been following this case since the news broke a few months ago, and I have to ask myself, why was Ms. Mckie used as a scapegoat, and is this bribe money or, hush money to keep her from revealing something that those in power don't want to have in the news. I think that another gesture that could be offered is a public apology to this good woman for destroying her good reputation and Name.

the system drug her through the Preverbial ringer and now they want to pay for her silence or so it seems. Let those who investigated the matter take the blame for this one afterall, they botched the case with sloppy investigation of this case.

66

David Park,

Ayrshire 14/09/2006 10:07:46

Michael (71). If this was indeed 'hush money', then why is McKie actively campaigning for a public inquiry?
Incidentally, human beings are fallible and judicial processes should always take due cognisance of this. Fallibilty is one thing, political cover-up is quite another.

67

Thaimon,

Thailand 14/09/2006 12:12:14

I'm a former PC from Canada. The fingerprints in the RCMP are double checked all the time, to catch mistakes. A friend of mine made one error and it cost him his official status as an "expert witness" for finger prints.
You have to remember that this designation is a legal one. If a lawyer can successfully challenge the person's status as an "expert witness", there's no sense in using him in that capacity, as your fingerprint evidence will be flung out of court. One mistake is all it takes, never mind one that hits the headlines!
The strange thing in this case is the supervisors hunting opinions that matched their desired result. The first tech that didn't agree should have Scotched (rotten pun, pardon!) the case against Mz. Mckie.

68

,

15/09/2006 09:16:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 70396, Article id was mapped to record!
69

,

15/09/2006 10:11:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 70493, Article id was mapped to record!
70

Michael Russell,

Argyll 15/09/2006 11:40:45

The passion that this case produces ,as well as the partisan loyalties it exposes, still astounds me and I have been involved in it for six years.
James (74 above) is clearly well plugged in to one side. As someone criticised by him in his posting (and well plugged in too ) can I simply agree with Iain that the remark about Bill is disgusting, prejudiced and a deliberate smear, and then take the issue on a little by suggesting that the world is divided into those who feel compelled tofight for justice when they see injustice, and those who are either afraid to do so or who always protect vested interests.

James and Chic (also above) no doubt genuinely belileve that the orginal identificaiton was right. It wasn't, and clearly wasn't. Mr Swann's first identification was also clearly erroneous, a matter that became crystal clear during his presentation to the Scoitsh Parliament committee. For experts the crucial issue is, however, not a mistake but the way in which a mistake is recognised, corrected and then integrated into productive experience. That needs to be borne in mind throughout this discussion.

But we are, or should be , now well beyond the "is it, or isn't it" stage in this matter - the overwhelming evidence (and not just fingerprint evdience) proved that Shirley was not in the house contrary to orders. What we should be debating is why this happened, what needs to be done to make sure it never happens agai (and Mulhearn has made a very good start on that in terms of fingerprinting) but also more widely, how - to go to the very first posting above with which I strongly agree - we change the whole nature of Scottish life so that accoutnabilitly, responsibility and confidence become central to who we are and how we live. In that sense the McKie case is a microcosm for what is wrong with Scotland, and particualrly Scottish politcs.

Finally the last thing I ever wanted was for this case to become polarised in thge

71

CHIC,

Ayr 15/09/2006 17:22:04

Mr Mike Russell,

You have much to answer for over this affair. Unfortunately I do not believe the media opinion of Shirley Mckie is likely to change prior to May next year and in choosing to vote against Labour some of the electorate may inadvertantly return you to Holyrood. I will not be voting at all!

Pat Werthiem the first 'expert' to accuse the SCRO of a mis-identification has been quoted more than once stating "I knew in less than 60 seconds that the mark was not Shirley's".
It takes a fingerprint expert in Scotland 5 years to qualify as an expert. Does it seem reasonable for Mr Werthiem to have taken this amount of time to come to a conclusion.
He then chose to photograph the mark himself and take Shirley's fingerprints.
As far as we know every photograph of mark Y7 prior to Mr Wertheim being in contact with the door frame did not show any damage to the mark. However he choose to use his images of the damaged mark for his court presentation and placed them on the internet. Ever since they first saw Mr Wertheims images, the SCRO officers have disputed that these are 'best evidence'.
He also took up to 100 impressions of Ms Mckie's thumbprint over a period of 15 mins (approximatly 1 every 9 seconds, dont forget he would have had to reink the thumb after every few prints). These were all plain impressions and he has admitted to applying pressure at certain points of the thumb, supposedly to find the closest match to Y7.
(For those of you who are not 'plugged in' as Mr Russell would put it, A plain impression can only ever contain a limited amount of detail and should used in conjuction with a rolled impression.)
Mr Werthiem only put a few of his plain impressions on the internet and no rolled impressions. What did he have to hide?
This would suggest that when analysing Y7 either Mr Werthiem was poorly qualified or incompetent or did not follow correct proceedure or perhaps he was just a bit rushed (after

72

Michael Russell,

Argyll 15/09/2006 19:55:00

Chic

I do not intend to get invovled in debating the detail with you. Suffice it to say that each of the points you raise can be succesfully challenged and has been succesfully challenged. Just to take one example - the "foreign expert" you quote did not say that " he did not give permission for his name to be added to the list of McKie's list of itnernational experts". What happened is that Mr Swann made an assertion during his evidence about this expert. This expert has now told the committee that Mr Swann did not represent his view fairly.

Or to take another - Pat Wewrtheim had nothing to hide. He took lots of impressions (Mr Swann incidentally took NONE of his own) and used the best of them in his work. Just like I do as a photographer when confronted with a dozen or more shots of the same thing. Nothing to hide, nothing supressed - normal activity.

But this is the problem. I say A,. you say B (becaue you have heard it from someone involved in the case - very closely involved obviously) and before we know where we are you are expressing the wish that I don't get returned to Holyrood....because of my support for a woman who lost her career be and her health as a result of .. Well I was about to call it a misidentification, wheras I am pretty sure you would regard it as a safe ident....

So how can we move forward? IN my view only by going on the safe ground of international expertise which is quie clear that there was a misidentification. Then by finding a way to improve the work of SCRO. And finally by learning the wider lessons of the case.

You will, I suspect, not agree. But I neither bear you , nor the experts any ill will. I jsut want t the truth to be known...though I am increasingly of the opinion that even that, in today's Scotland, is almost too much to hope for.

73

Alberto.,

16/09/2006 07:23:11

Presumably in the settlement 'arrangement' the Political groupies set up with Shirley McKie, in their seemingly great political face saving stroke with 'our' money, they will have placed what is known as a 'gagging' order to stop her speaking about the case!

However, in view of their statement of declaring (the First Minister himself I believe?) the SCRO had only made an 'honest mistake' and seemed quite convinced that 'that was that - end of story', yet, to make such an eventual massive payout, almost at the drop of a hat, would seem to be saying loud and very clear - 'we are running scared of the truth!'

As this was clearly paid in an endeavour to avoid a Judicial, or further enquiries, and probably a massive amount of political and bureaucratic face saving, surely this would place the Justice Minister etc.,(?) in the position of mis-use of public funds where none should have been used?

If Politicians are not scared of the truth - yet it seems in many situations they are, why do they apply these so-called gagging orders and what 'legality' do these 'orders' have if the 'recipients' decide to speak out?

Presumably the SCRO members, who, it is now being reported, are being offered monetary reward to 'call it a day and go!' will also have some similar order included with their offer - but again why, who is running scared at their end?

It would seem quite clear that all this frantic Political and Bureaucratic activity in what 'they' have declared a simple 'Honest Mistake' seems to be creating a rather nasty smell, emanating predominantly from a group of people who were elected by members of the Public, very much on the basis for their integrity and honesty whilst in office - and have been mis-led!

If this kind of political activity is not stopped and squashed forever - what hope can there be for the Country in the future - after all, the current politicians have been ‘awarded’ the responsibility, 'allegedly', of running the show

74

Paul,

16/09/2006 12:09:16

Hi Chic
You suggested that Shirley Mckies american expert took his photographs of mark y7 ...approximatly 1 every 9 seconds, dont forget he would have had to reink the thumb after every few prints..

I hate to be a real anorak and a pedant, but as he was using a manual camera (a Nikon FE I think he said) he would have to manually wind on each frame, taking his eye away from the viewfinder in the process, after every 36 frames he would need about a minute and a half to unload and reload his film, so if anything his rate was much higher.

Still if he can rule out a thumbprint in less than a minute (ok, perhaps it's churlish to point out that so could anybody when he was making a comparison with the wrong thumb, maybe when Arie, Macleod and Pat can agree on the basics of their case and when Mcleod stops making misidentifications, maybe we can start taking these experts seriously) he is obviously a fast worker.

As any full nose, quality and quantity are seldom the same thing.

The other interesting thing to note about Pat's online images (apart from the scratches, the low resolution, pre-marking, emotive and subjective introduction -by Itiel Dror's collaborator Arie Zeelenberg, the mindset man) is that he wasn't comparing the latent with a straight forward impression of Shirley Mckies thumb (either of them) now although the experts can all argue about the merits of rolled versus plain (although it would seem a very basic knowledge of physics would inform anybody that a spherical object looks very different when flattened out -think of the map of the world) but what is absolutely unbelievable is that Pat has attempted the comparison with an impression in which he has tried to mimic the movement of Y7!!!!!!

If the consequences of this were not so horrendous it would be absolutley hilarious.

Malcolm Graham, a man that Shirley's father was once happy to quote (and who says the identification in the murder trial was correct - he sh

75

CHIC,

Ayr 16/09/2006 17:45:32

Paul#80

I was not refering to photographs of Y7, Werthiem took up to 100 inked impressions. in a 15 minute period. This seems like a rush job to me where quantity was more important than quality. He could have taken his time and ensured that the whole of Shirley's thumb was available on the internet.
But as I have already pointed out he came to a conclusion within 60 seconds. this does not sound like someone who is very thorough.

Mike Russell #78

When has any of what i have stated been successfully challenged??
Did I miss a trial or Judicial Inquiry?
One of the problems the SCRO officers have in defending themselves is that those in the McKie media machine make statements such as 'has been successfully challenged' and then dont back it up.
We live in the age of the soundbite and whenever someone like yourself or Iain McKie comes out with such waffle it is not CHALLENGED. The journalist has got his quote, job done.
You knew that due to ongoing legal action the SCRO
officers were unable make any comment, so you could say what you liked. Dont forget the McKie's spin doctor Bill McFarlane has already been gloating about how he coached Shirley to appear innocent. Yet someone else who has profited from the lack of debate. (free advertising for his business)

I would ask that anyone who believes there is more to this case than is being reported in the media have another look at my post#78. Mr Russell claims it has been 'challenged' Have you ever seen these FACTS reported in the media?

The prosecutor at Shirley's perjury trail failed!
Werthiems images should not have been allowed,
Y7 had been damaged prior to his photograph.

Shirley committed perjury during her perjury trail, when she denied the existence of Peter Swan.
If the jury knew she had lied to THEM do you think they would still have believed her innocense.

David Asbury was not just freed on appeal. He was freed on an UNCHALLEN

76

Paul,

16/09/2006 22:04:22

Hi Chic,

I stand corrected, it seems that neither Pat's photographs or impressions were up to much!

Re: the inquiry, another, previously unreported side of this saga has came out, regardless of the outcome this alone makes it worthwhile.

No matter the outcome -and one is hopeful that the committee shall deliberate with the facts and their consicence rather than their party line- the facts of this case shall never dissapear.

77

Paul,

16/09/2006 22:25:41

Dear Mike (78)

You said:
"I do not intend to get invovled in debating the detail with you."

Perhaps you should, especially when you go onto make the claim:

"So how can we move forward? IN my view only by going on the safe ground of international expertise which is quie clear that there was a misidentification."

Would you want tried by internet petition? The context in which these international experts signed up, and the evidence on which they based this on demand scrutiny.

You also said:
"Pat Wewrtheim had nothing to hide. He took lots of impressions (Mr Swann incidentally took NONE of his own) and used the best of them in his work. Just like I do as a photographer when confronted with a dozen or more shots of the same thing. Nothing to hide, nothing supressed - normal activity."

I don't wish to make this a personal comment on your photography, but obviously your photography has never been used to get convicted murderers out of jail, your photography has never been used to cost 6 civil servants their livliehoods & their health. Mr. Wertheims are being used for this.

The SCRO were accused of selectively using the best part of the mark for their identification, couldn't the same be said of Pat selectively using the images and prints that best illustrate his point?

Unforutnatley this is all about detail, despite attempts to undermine and dumb-down the science, dropping the jargon might suit the soundbite hungry media, it does none of the experts involved or the science any justice.

May I ask you, have you looked at Peter Swanns evidence in any detail?, if you were in court and your fingerprints were a significant part of the evidence would you be happy for a plain impression to be used? Do you think a plain impression deliberately distorted (and I don't mean the scratches, I mean the simulated twisting) is best evidence?

78

Alberto.,

17/09/2006 12:28:59

It has been said that it takes 5(five) years to qualify as an expert at the SCRO, but what quality standard of expert can that be considered when, as seems to be admitted by the authorities - the system is/was flawed?
Why don't the Political and Legal authorities, namely Jamieson and Boyd, show their absolute confidence that they, and probably others, have nothing to hide - or fear (even though it seems to be coming more and more evident day by day they have!) by cancelling any so called 'Gagging Orders', on any one they have had them issued to, in connection with this case, and even show more of their confidence by guaranteeing legal action will not be taken under the Official Secrets Act ( the greatest Political Face saver ever!) or any other 'Binding' Act that may exist, against those involved, who have signed appropriate document/s!
Can they afford not to take such action so that the massive doubt - apparently Worldwide from what I read, can hopefully be eradicated and the trust and honesty the electorate placed in them, at election time, is not to be seen as the sham it seems to have become!
In this particular case, and possibly others to pop their heads up yet, it seems ‘the truth’ is qualifying as the biggest enemy of all the Political life in the Country, and also much of the legal Legal set as well!
It appears the 'New Labour' - Westminster Branch, with its apparent expertise at truth avoidance, is infecting the whole political organisation - and, not to be forgotten, at our expense both financially and morally!
When will it all end - if ever?

79

CHIC,

Ayr 17/09/2006 14:11:09

Victor,

You are being deceived by spin.

The change to non-numeric would not have significantly changed how the SCRO experts approached the assessment of Y7 and under the new 'system' they stand by their identification.

Jamieson, Boyd, and Mulhern want it to look as if the new non-numeric standard for court presentation has completely shaken up fingerprint identifications in Scotland. More cover up!
They believe it will help to justify the McKie payout, Asbury's release, and their attempts to get rid of the SCRO officers.

Sadly I believe you are one who doubts the integrity of the SCRO officers. But at least you accept that those in power including the Lord Advocate appear to have much to hide.

Lifting gagging orders is not enough. What is required is a Judicial inquiry where the guilty parties (e.g. The McKies, MacKay, Boyd and his department, Executive Ministers....and the list goes on) can be interrogated under oath.

80

TAXPAYER,

Glasgow 17/09/2006 20:19:37

It is very obvious that many individuals who have posted comments on this site don't know what they are talking about. I support the four SCRO officers in and the many other experts who have confirmed that the print was that of Shirley McKie, unfortunately due to lsub-judice law they have not been allowed to defend themselves only now are they allowed to tell their story to the Justice 1 committee. For several yeqars now Shirley McKie has had the freedom to campaign, I think it is about time that the public here the other side of the story and the support and other expert opinions of the Shirley MvKie fingerprint, do not let thr press influence you, research into this matter and the truth stares you in the face!!!

81

Paul,

18/09/2006 00:29:25

Siobhan, you have restored my faith in the human race, too few people realise that they haven't heard the full story. I would never ask people to take a specific side, I would however ask them to evaluate all of the facts, then decide. Up until recently the other side has never been allowed to come out.

Things you should know:

1. Shirley Mckie had been in bother in the past, the reason, her prints being found places they shouldn't have been.

2. The disputed print appeared between two sweeps of the locus, the period in which the disputed mark appeared coincides with the time that Shirley Mckie was on duty at the locus (and had keys for the murder scene signed out to her)

3. David Asbury's and Shirley Mckie's original experts both confirmed the identifications made by the SCRO officers. Between them these experts have around 80 years experience in fingerprints.
David Asburys identification has never been challenged before a judge or jury. I have highlighted the fundamental flaws in Ms Mckies second defence experts evidence in post number 80.
If you look at post 58 you will find an expansion on this, by the expert Shirley Mckie originally consulted and corresponded with before denying any knowledge of him (under oath), or more importantly his identification of her print, at her perjury trial.

4. Three significant Mckie experts, Allan Bayle, Gary Dempster and John Macleod have had to apologise for their incompetancy in subsequent cases where they have campaigned in the media to close the SCRO and were proven wrong. They are patently fallable, they patently have an agenda against the SCRO.

Amazingly it was John Macleod's report that formed the decision to settle the Mckies civil action out of court, as with the vast majority of the media coverage, no alternative opinion was sought.

5. Shirley Mckies father was the former media relations officer for the police, since 1999 they have also enjoyed the PR services

82

TAXPAYER,

Glasgow 18/09/2006 22:54:55

Paul, Thanks for you comments posted on 87. It is obvious that certain sections of the media are being misguided or manipulated in their blind support for Shirley McKie and as a result of this the public have been influenced. I just wonder if the other experts who agrre and support the evidence of the SCRO had been campaigned and covered by the media at the same level as the SHirley/Iain McKie campaign would there be doubt!!!!!! Would taxpayers agree to the settlement Shirley McKie received? These recent events of the job deal puts these officials in a catch 22 situation, these officials are being made as scapegoats. There is enough underlying evidence to suggest that perhaps the SCRO officials didn't get it wrong and overall cast serious doubt over this whole matter. These officials are being harrassed and bullied and something should be done about this, the public are being denied the full facts. I would also like to point out that at no time have these officials been comitted of any crime nor been discliplined for this case yet they are being treated as if they were. These officials have never sais that this was an honest mistake, that was quoted by a politician these officials have always and always will stand by their ID of this print.

83

Michael Russell,

Argyll 19/09/2006 10:43:22

I really don't intend to debate this with either you Chic, or you Paul or anyone else who is so locked into it that your minds are largely closed.

I came to this with no prejudice either way. However after six years I am certain from the vast amount of work that I have done on it, and the vast amount done by others who I repsect, that Shirley is innocent, that there was a misidentification in her case and in the Asbury case, and that justice is slowly being done in terms of restitution for Shirley , the overturning of the unsafe conviction of Asbury and - most importantly of all - in the improvement of the fingerprint work of the SCRO Glasgow bureau which was operating below efficency (as HMCIC Taylor found in 2000). Mr Mulearn is in my view making necessary steps forward and whilst I have strong reservations about the Committee Inquiry and and a continuing desire to see a full judicial inquiry , bascially the truth is coming out.

I am sorry for those who feel badly treated by this process. But accepting the truth and learning from it is essential and they must do so too. They made the error in the first place, and they have compounded it by refusing to change. They are, to a great degree, now the victims of their own arrogance and inlexibility and of the "canteen culture" which pervaded the bureau at a crucial time.

I reamin of the opinion that a full judicial inquiry would be the best way forward and that the Parliamentary Inquiry has suffered from the intrusion of politics into the matter particuallry from those who imagine that this is all an SNP plot...one of the most ludicrous of the many ludicrous claims I have heard during my invovlement in this matter.

Finally I do hope that some closure can come for those who feel wounded. But to do so they will have to learn something I saw often in my own constituent case load as an MSP : those who keep hanging on to the past and who keep trying to get justirication fr

84

Paul,

19/09/2006 12:21:01

You called the SCRO officers arrogant, for refusing to admit a mistake that never happened to save somebody elses skin? Arrogant for refusing to undermine justice? I would call them principled.

My black is your white and vice versa, however I would like you answer my points about trial by internet and the quality of Wertheims evidence.

Whens the book coming out?

Slighty questions the impartiality wouldn't you say?

85

Paul,

19/09/2006 12:57:46

Michael, you said:

the Parliamentary Inquiry has suffered from the intrusion of politics into the matter particuallry from those who imagine that this is all an SNP plot...one of the most ludicrous of the many ludicrous claims I have heard during my invovlement in this matter.

An article from the Sunday Herald on 16/07/06 reports:

“A controversial book on the Shirley McKie fingerprint case that is highly critical of the Labour-Lib Dem coalition is to be published just weeks before next years Holyrood elections.
The book, to be co-written by the former detectives father Iain McKie and former MSP Mike Russell, will be published in April, when campaigning for the Scottish Parliamentary elections on May 3 will be in full swing.

“Last night, Iain McKie said the book would “pull no punches” in it’s condemnation of the Executive, and will single out First Minister Jack McConnell, Labour justice minister Cathy Jamieson, and Jim Wallace, the Liberal Democrat former justice minister for particular criticism.”

Michael, you are set to profit from this whole episode, you have been an influential Mckie campaigner from back in the days when you were an MSP, your book was announced during the same parliamentary enquiry you've attacked (for becoming politicised!!!!?) and you are going to launch your book in the middle of election time attacking Labour and the Lib Dems (are you going to do a bit on Alex Neils misguided rants about closing the SCRO after Macleod, Dempster & Bayle screwed up?)

I struggle to come up with words to describe you Michael, 'hypocrite' and 'profiteer' hardly seem to do you justice. But then, there hasn't been much of justice in this whole episode.

I don't ask you to take sides, I do ask you to answer my previous questions, and I ask anybody else reading to take on board ALL the facts and decide for themselves.

86

sam,

london 19/09/2006 13:38:48

I have read about this case as a neutral party and have come to realise that the real victims are indeed the scro working on this case.They have became a tool to further political careers and for others to benifit from financially.not least mckie herself!!!

87

CHIC,

19/09/2006 13:47:29

Mike Russell #89

You said,

"I really don't intend to debate this with either you Chic, or you Paul or anyone else who is so locked into it that your minds are largely closed."

As Paul has pointed out you are currently co-writing a book with Iain McKie on the topic.

It is you who has the closed mind.

This book is due to be published just prior to next years holyrood election. I suspect it will depict you in a favorable light and may even criticise your political opposition.

You also said

"I came to this with no prejudice either way."

This may be true, but from the minute you publicly defended McKie
you have acted with TOTAL PREJUDICE, and as we have seen from politicians at all levels, they never admit to their mistakes no matter how HONEST they were in making them.

88

CHIC,

ayr 19/09/2006 14:17:50

Paul,

My last post was prior to reading #91 & #92.

You are doing a much better job questioning the McKie supporters and their motive's than the so called independant press or the ineffective MSP's on the Justice committee.

Sam #92

It is good that you have read into this case, it is the only way individuals will find out the truth. The Scottish parliament website contains the most information, this was the first opportunity the SCRO officers had to speak out.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/committees/jus...

Beware this site also contains much McKie propoganda.

I hope that others will follow your example and make up their own minds as to McKie's innocense and not simple rely on the media.


 

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