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Fresh doubts over fingerprint evidence

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Published Date: 31 July 2006
Report finds fingerprint experts swayed by background information MSPs say report could have 'major implications' for Shirley McKie case Report's author calls for urgent review of fingerprinting procedures
Key quote "It could be that miscarriages of justice have occurred because of this basic problem. I believe in fingerprints as a tool for solving crime, but we need to minimise this bias. The service is doing very little, if anything, to minimise the cognitive bias, and that is deeply concerning" - Dr Itiel Dror, a psychologist at the University of Southampton
Story in full FRESH doubts over the accuracy of fingerprint evidence in courts has been raised by new research showing experts can be easily swayed in their judgements by "background" information.

The study found that experts can unwittingly "see what they want to see" when looking at scene-of-crime prints, resulting in wrong decisions which potentially could lead to miscarriages of justice.

Members of the Scottish Parliament's justice committee yesterday said the research has major implications for their inquiry into the Scottish Criminal Records Office (SCRO) and the Shirley McKie case and called on the report's author, Dr Itiel Dror, a psychologist at the University of Southampton, to submit his findings to MSPs.

The findings, contained in a report called Why Experts Make Errors, have also triggered calls for a comprehensive review of hundreds of convictions in Scottish courts based on fingerprint analysis.

In Dr Dror's experiment, six fingerprint experts from around the world were given eight "latent" crime-scene prints which they were asked to compare with sets of elimination prints.

The experts were unaware that they had previously examined the latent prints. Before viewing four sets of prints, each expert was given false information - it was either suggested to them that the prints were from the criminal or were eliminated from the inquiry when the opposite was true.

This "biasing context" led four of the six anonymous experts to change their minds and come to a different conclusion. One expert changed his mind three times.

Dr Dror told The Scotsman that his findings, published in this month's Journal of Forensic Identification, demanded an urgent review of procedures within national fingerprint services.

He said: "It could be that miscarriages of justice have occurred because of this basic problem. I believe in fingerprints as a tool for solving crime, but we need to minimise this bias. The service is doing very little, if anything, to minimise the cognitive bias, and that is deeply concerning.

"I'm not accusing anyone of lying - it's just how the brain works. We have to deal with it and learn from it."

The inquiry into the SCRO, prompted after ministers paid £750,000 in damages to Ms McKie after she was wrongly accused of leaving her fingerprint at a murder scene, has heard that fingerprint experts are routinely given a list of "elimination" prints from detectives investigating a crime. The experts know in advance that police are keen to eliminate these names - usually fellow officers who were at the scene of the crime - from their investigation.

MSPs have also heard that, in the McKie case, experts viewing the controversial print left on the doorframe in the Kilmarnock house where Marion Ross was murdered knew that their colleagues had already decided the print belonged to the former Strathclyde detective.

Dr Dror said these types of procedures tend to be based on intuition rather than science and could expose fingerprint experts to dangerous levels of bias.

Bruce McPhee MSP, who sits on the committee, said the research provided scientific proof for the growing belief that fingerprint experts are subject to unacceptable levels of influence.

He added: "I think [the study] has major implications for the Scottish fingerprint service. This is very useful information. Dr Itiel Dror should be encouraged to submit his findings to the committee."

Ms McKie's father, Iain, called for the "books to be reopened" on previous SCRO fingerprint cases in light of Dr Dror's findings. A review of cases within a 12-month period was ordered after Ms McKie was acquitted of perjury, but Mr McKie said a more far-reaching review was needed to ensure no further mistakes have been made.

A spokeswoman for the Executive said a series of improvements had been made to the forensic fingerprint analysis since the McKie case. She said: "We are now determined to ensure that the Scottish Fingerprint Service (SFS) is recognised as truly world class."

David Mulhearn, interim head of the Scottish Police Services Authority and author of a new action plan for the SFS, added: "The reliability of a fingerprint identification is demonstrated by a strict verification process. The conclusions are proven to be valid through consistent results from different examiners."

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1

Dk,

31/07/2006 08:11:43

Is there not a way to compare prints electronically thereby eliminating doubt

2

Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD,

Dar-Es-Salaam Tanzania 31/07/2006 08:25:39

Fresh doubts over fingerprint evidence
MICHAEL HOWIE
• Report finds fingerprint experts swayed by background information
• MSPs say report could have 'major implications' for Shirley McKie case
• Report's author calls for urgent review of fingerprinting procedures
Here is the story you would love to read.
I take the thin skin of the egg (you know the one that is very thin inside the egg when you break it), then I put this on the fingerprint of another fingerprint. What you have is a second imprint of the fingerprint that is now new and easily forgeable. Try it? No need to go to It guys. This is done by many girls to cheat on the phones etc.

3

Searchlight,

Tayside 31/07/2006 08:49:45

The McKie's must really be scarping the bottom of the barrel now if they are regurgitating this rubbish. In his so-called scientific tests Dror introduced subliminal priming by flashing the words ‘guilty’ and ‘same’. He never mentioned that when he appeared on NewsnightScotland. Maybe Dror is another Allan Bayle?

4

Anthony,

Glasgow 31/07/2006 09:02:35

It seems to me that what the report has found is not restricted to fingerprint evidence, but all sorts of expert evidence. There is already strong and well known research to show most people are swayed by peer group pressure and what they believe they are expected to find. Experts are only human. Most will be influenced in the same way as the rest of us, and as with the population as a whole, there is also likely to be a proportion of them who are particularly strongly influenced by such factors. I've long believed an expert should be assessed not only on his or her technical ability, but also on their independence of thought and strength of character. That is why the SCRO and other police internal and inter-agency structures are just so dangerous. You have 'experts' working under police performance indicators and the police umbrella. The pressure on them to reach conviction friendly conclusions by filtering evidence is clearly there. Typically three or four of them will assess evidence, be it fingerprint or whatever. Their report is then passed to the defence, who will if the defendant is reliant on legal aid, typically have just one expert who looks at the case in the context of of the prosecution experts report. Anyone can see how it would take a lot of guts for the defence expert to take them on. Remember Shirley McKie's defence expert initially sided with the SCRO ones. But he later retracted, because Ms McKie who wasn't dependent on legal aid, was able to source other experts, who blew apart the SCRO's experts findings, and her original defence expert, then changed his mind and sided with Ms McKie. Sometimes, as with computer crimes, there is only one expert on the register of expert witnesses in Scotland. In such a case, that expert is in an expecially delicate position. People charged with criminal offences in Scotland, and who are reliant on legal aid, are routinely denied fair trials, and I'm in no doubt many people have been convicted who should not ha

5

Iain McKie,

Ayr 31/07/2006 09:40:25

Dr Dror's research is extremely interesting and underlines the need for effective independent checks and balances following any 'forensic identification'. There is little doubt that each and every day a number of emotional and psychological factors are at play influencing our behaviour and judgement. Where we are making forensic decisions that could affect an individual’s freedom such awareness is critical. While this research might have some interesting things to say about initial decisions by experts it does not adequately explain the 10 year cover up in the Shirley McKie case. For adequate explanation you have to research the 'political culture' existing within SCRO, Police and Scottish Executive over the years that has allowed such a running sore to develop.

6

Frank,

Glasgow 31/07/2006 09:43:25

Dror - "I'm not accusing anyone of lying - it's just how the brain works. We have to deal with it and learn from it."

Dead right! Maybe Shirley McKie is not lying - it's just how her brain works. We have to deal with it and learn from it.

The Scottish Parliament's justice committee have reopened the books on her case, cool!

7

Searchlight,

Kilmarnock 31/07/2006 09:55:00

For "Bottom" Dror's research to have any relevence to the McKie Scandal not only the six SCRO experts but McKie's original expert Peter Swann, Malcolm Graham, etc and the many others who have correctly identified Mark Y7 as Shirley McKie's left thumb print would need to be 'influenced' by the same extraneous factors. It really is too much to expect us to belive that

8

Anthony,

Glasgow 31/07/2006 10:13:28

Ray, sorry to be pedantic but your argument is simply illogical. You argue that Itiel Dror and David Charlton's report cannot have relevance to the McKie case. You base this on the premise that a number of experts identified the print as being Ms McKie's. But a greater number of experts, and representing a broader range of the fornsic academy concluded that the print was not Ms McKie's. So, if you genuinely base your judgement on the evidence you claim you do, you should now change your conclusion. Or shall we see the goal posts shift once more?

9

Frank,

Glasgow 31/07/2006 10:41:32

Sorry Pedantic Anthony,

The Scottish Parliament's justice committee have reopened the books on Shirley McKie. No need to shift the goal posts - Game Over!

10

Searchlight,

31/07/2006 10:49:05

Anthony, let's see if I got you correctly. All the experts who say it is McKie's print have been subjected to 'influence' but those who say it is not hers (usually based on internet images) are paragons of clear and true thought. They were not, for example, influenced by the misinformation campaigns or internet petitions that have been widely circulated.
For the avoidance of doubt I'm not saying that Dror is wrong only that his theory, in relation to the McKie indentification, is simply irrelevant.

11

union member,

Glasgow 31/07/2006 11:06:53

Anthony,

I'm afraid your 'balance of expert forces' argument has a hole in it. I think you'll find that Ms McKie's original defence expert, did NOT change his mind to side with Ms McKie - Indeed Peter Swann (for it was he) confirmed his backing for the SCRO ident at the Scottish Parliament recently. As did Malcolm Graham (the original Asbury defence expert).

Differences of opinion between experts? - yes. Malicious conspiracy at SCRO?- Quite clearly not.

12

mike,

edinburgh 31/07/2006 11:08:44

"I hear further revelations may be afoot concerning another area of Scottish prosecution expert testimony, which if bourne out, will make the McKie case look like a gentle prelude."

Anthony, are you able to expand on this? Sounds interesting.

13

Paul,

Ayrshire 31/07/2006 11:18:29

Anthony you are deluded.

As a Scottish taxpayer and resident of Kilmarnock I am astounded that this saga has been dragged on for so long, and I put the blame firmly at the door of the SCRO seniors.

They should have shut the McKie campaign down years ago.

Peter Swann was appointed by McKie's defence and as a matter of principle told the truth rather than tow their line so he becomes "incompetant" (please follow Ken McIntosh's discussion with John Mcloed for an expansion on this theme, the link is on the Scottish Parliament Website) for clarity, Peter Swann has never wavered from his opinion (which is shared by Malcolm Graham, John Berry, the Danish fingerprint staff and many more experts of a high standing) that identifies the print as McKies.

We have "sharp-shooter" theories touted on the McKie site, silicon impressin theories touted by Stuart Stephenson, this is all the dregs being dragged up, it's rubbish, it's actually pitiful that the McKies are resorting to this, in the wake of the Justice One committee evidence more and more people are being turned on to what's actually went on here.

The remit of the J1 campaign is to re-establish public confidence in the SCRO, the only folk who have dented it is the likes of Alex Neil (strangely quiet of late) and those friendly to the McKie campaign, the Zeelenburgs and Bayles (these people have their own axe to grind and are using the Mckie case to do this, I don't know if Iain McKie quite gets this, YOU ARE BEING USED) people who have had to make apology and climbdown after climbdown because of assertions made on the strength of their ineptitude.

There is a murderer free to kill again.
He should be Jail.

The other side of the story is coming out.
Big lies have been told, by whom is becoming clearer by the day.
There has been a conspiracy, criminal of intent, the perpetrators increasingly exposed.

Certain people should see the writ

14

Bill69,

Glasgow 31/07/2006 11:20:52

Anthony's comment re: Shirley's defence expert originally 'siding' with SCRO and later retracting is just plain wrong and needs to be corrected. It's a pity that Mr Iain McKie didn't do so in his post above as he is acutely aware of that defence expert's opinion. The expert I think that Anthony refers to is Mr Peter Swann who identified mark Y7 as being Shirley's back in 1999 when Shirley engaged him as a defence expert. But Shirley didn't like his conclusions, "I'm sorry, but it's your print and it's not been planted", so she engaged other experts from America. But Swann has resolutely maintained his identification despite being subject to vexatious attacks on his professional reputation for many years by the McKie Campaign, thankfully to no avail. Swann has had his work peer reviewed by other experts unconnected to SCRO and found to be correct on each occasion. So perhaps Anthony means another expert who later apologised to Shirley following the botched HMIC inquiry? Malcolm Graham, a retired FP expert from Edinburgh also examined the mark and found it to be Shirley's. He also reported that it had absolutely not been 'planted' in Marion Ross's home as was disgracefully insinuated at the outset of this sorry saga. On hearing the outcome of the HMIC inquiry Malcolm though he must have made a mistake and being a gentleman, wrote to McKie to offer his apology. Mr Malcolm, however, still maintains that Y7 is Shirley's left thumb print and averred so before the Justice 1 Committee in June as did Mr Swann and another eminent expert from England John Berry. One final fact to remember: The original four SCRO experts dragged into this outrageous scandal had their work before and after Y7 et al checked for errors by FP Bureax outside Scotland. The result - no errors, no misidentifications. And now they face being made redundant for simply doing their job and doing it well.

15

Anthony,

Glasgow 31/07/2006 12:30:21

To take one point at a time:

Frank, yes the Justice One Committee are of course looking at the case. But let's not forget that this is well short of the public enquiry many independent commentators felt and still feel was necessary. Indeed, Pauline McNeil its Convenor, did not see the point of the committee hearing the case because she (rightly) felt it did not have enough power to get to the bottom of things. I thought the position of Mr MacIntosh MSP who has spoken up for the SCRO experts was pretty wobbly incidentally. On the one hand, he argues that they are all desperate to get to the bottom of matters, and welcome the Justice One Committee assessment. But he on the other hand, then opposes a public enquiry - the only vehicle though which the truth can be absolutely compelled to come out. So where does he stand? For the truth - up to a point?

Ray, nowhere do I say that one set of experts are better than another - I don't have the knowledge to suggest that. All I say is that there are more of them, and since your argument was based on the weight of numbers, your conclusion was inconsistant with the very facts you relied on for that conclusion. And you go and do it again! Another piece of circular logic. You say the Dror/Chapman report is irrelevant. Why? Because the prints according to you, were correctly identified. Only if you accept that premise, is the Dror/Chapman report irrelevant to the McKie case. But I repeat, by sheer weight of expert evidence, the criterion you yourself have stated should be the proper measure, the opposite conclusion appears the more likely. Your whole argument really does beg the question.

Chris, Mr Swann was one of two defence experts consulted, he retained his original position (although with some minor criticisms), the other, (and I believe the first to be consulted), U-turned his evidence, and sent a letter of apology to Iain McKie, Shirley McKie's father. This was published in a newspaper. I can't understan

16

Anthony,

Glasgow 31/07/2006 12:57:23

To continue, Paul you make a very good point about the Justice 1 Committee's remit. Ms Mullin MSP, stated that her objective was to re-establish confidence in the SCRO. I would suggest this is incompatible with justice. Her objective should be to get to the truth. And if the truth happens to rip apart faith in the SCRO, then so be it. And ironically, that would be better for the SCRO experts. If (note 'if') they were wrong, and the purpose of the Justice One Committee's enquiry is to re-establish faith in the SCRO, then the only course of action they would have, is to scape goat the SCRO experts. It was as much in their interests as it was the McKies, that this remit was challenged. As for your observation on Zeelenburg's mindset theory, I don't think they are the same, but I can see where you're coming from on that. In the interests of fair play Paul, have a look at http://www.clpex.com/Articles/Mckie/ianmckie.htm . You'll find the fingerprint expert stating that I "applaud people like Dave Charlton." This appears to be the same Dave Charlton who is the co-author with Iteil Dror of the report which the main article refers to. So though not the same, there are connections.

Stewart - a powerful argument, and you catalogue the pro-SCRO experts eloquently. But you do not dispute they are the minority? Nor that most if not all of the pro-McKie experts are equally respected? Nor that leading legal opinion such as Mr Mansfield QC have been highly critical of the SCRO position which amounts to: 'look just shut up and believe us, we're the experts', which he stated in his opinion, should always 'set alarm bells ringing'. This of course is in contrast to the pro-McKie experts, who have gone to pains to explain how they reached their findings and in plain English.

17

SteveSC,

West Lothian 31/07/2006 12:59:11

I am the person who touts the "sharp-shooter" statistical theory referred to by Paul of Ayrshire above.

My point is about how the match between McKie and latent print Y7 came to be the basis of a criminal charge (perjury). The match was found during the ‘elimination’ phase of the fingerprint work in a criminal inquiry. The accusation of perjury came AFTER the match was found and is dependent on the match being disputed. The ‘self-selecting’ nature of a disputed elimination match - where the majority of matches are just ‘eliminated’ and forgotten about - has huge and uncertain affects on the probability that the match is based on an error compared with a fingerprint match in a normal criminal case. This brings into question how safe it was to prosecute Shirley McKie for perjury.

You can read more here:

http://www.stevehornsc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Texas/TexasSh...

18

Paul,

31/07/2006 13:00:00

Hi Anthony,

"Paul, As with Ray's points, everything you say, is based on the premise that the pro-SCRO experts are right, and the pro-McKie ones are wrong. And it stands or falls on that. But you surely must acknowledge that the numbers game at least, is against you?"

-Are you against the use of a premise?, if so you are a hyprocrite because Anthony, you base your argument on another premise, that the pro-McKie people are right and everybody else is wrong(I shun the use of the expert in this context) This same premise, i.e that anybody who dares suggest that it IS Shirley McKie's print is a criminal conspirator and incompetent as well, has been adopted to devastating effect by the McKie campaign (according to the submissions by Les Brown and Malcolm Grahm, usually accompanied by threatening phonecalls)

-This case stands and falls on whether or not Shirley McKie placed that fingerprint at the locus, not a premise.
As it was put to her at her perjury trial, there are two scenarios, either she was at the scene and the log wasn't completed or altered, or she is an innocent in all of this.
If she is proven to have been there then the SCRO have no case to answer, so public confidence can be restored.
Or the alternative is a massive national conspiracy to get Shirley McKie, involving even those appointed in her defence (whom she denied knowledge of under oath, despite records to the contrary)
Why? the old line about wanting to secure the Asbury conviction is a bit hackneyed now, if you read Mackay, if you read Pass, if you read Malcolm Grahams submissions, the only thing that got Asbury out of Jail was Shirley McKies campaign, a campaign increasingly shown to be rather dubious.
An altruistic campaign (so kindly dedicated to the memory of Marion Ross, what balls some people have) dedicated to justice and showing up the bad men and women at the SCRO for what they really are: erm, maybe it is worth rereading Mcleods repo

19

Paul,

31/07/2006 13:24:12

"But you do not dispute they are the minority? Nor that most if not all of the pro-McKie experts are equally respected?"

Yes, the pro-SCRO experts are out-numbered by those 'experts' who signed up to Arie Zeelenburgs internet petition on the basis of Pat Wertheims scratched low quality images.

Yes, I concede that all of the pro McKie experts command an equal level of of respect. Quite what this level is, compared to say, people like John Berry, Peter Swann, Malcolm Graham, the highly trained & quality checked personnel of the SCRO, is up for debate.

"Nor that leading legal opinion such as Mr Mansfield QC have been highly critical of the SCRO position which amounts to: 'look just shut up and believe us, we're the experts"

No it doesn't. They stand by their identifcations and are bound by the official secrets act and have been unable to defend their position publicly, but for the exception of parliamentary privalege.
The McKies know this, and before Justice 1 have exploited it.

They are pilloried and maligned, when they do speak out they are shot down (by the same Alex Neil who wanted answers) for allegedly compromising the impartiality of the criminal justice system.

Again, why should they give an inch when they are certain of the quality of their work.

"This of course is in contrast to the pro-McKie experts, who have gone to pains to explain how they reached their findings and in plain English."

Yes, that Mr. Wertheim seems a nice freindly chap, and "hey y'all, it's so simple even a lowly ole texan like me could rule it out in sixty seconds" and Mr. Zeelenburgs ("borrowed") powerpoint.

Is fingerprinting that simple a discipline that it can be reduced to laymans terms? Perhaps the reaon that you cannot understand their presentations is because, like Wertheim, like Zeelenburg, maybe it's work of a standard beyond your level of appreciation.

20

Anthony,

Glasgow 31/07/2006 13:34:29

Paul, I sort of get the impression that this is a pretty emotive issue for you. Let me say now, that my intention is not to work people up, just to point to some faulty reasoning which I have to say, does seem prevalent especially amongst those supporting the SCRO line. I'm not a hypocrite because I've never claimed the pro-McKie experts are right - simply that the arguments being used by the pro-SCRO posters on this string are largely flawed. It's possible though to put forward a flawed argument and still be right. And no, of course I'm not against the use of a premise. I am against them being used as part of a circular argument however. You also make liberal use if I may say so Paul, of the straw man falacy. You spend most of your post attacking a position. But it's not the one I, or anyone else on this thread have argued - it's entirely your own construction. I do not say or suggest any of the things you suggest regarding those supporting the SCRO line. 'Criminals'. 'Incompetent'. Where do I use any of those terms or even employ such a tone? I feel someone unfamiliar with the McKie affair, might get the impression that Ms McKie lost her perjury case from your post Paul. She won remember? No lies, no deceipt, no criminal offence. My use of the word 'game' was purely in the context of how the number of experts are presented, that's all. The bottom line Paul, is that hundreds, maybe even thousands of disadvantaged people reliant on legal aid, are wrongly convicted on the back of bogus 'expert' evidence every year in Scotland. They can't fight back because they probably never even get to know about the flaws. The system is so stacked against them. On this one occation, the system slipped up and hit a reasonably affluent middle class individual, who had good family connections and strong inside knowledge, and wasn't reliant on legal aid. Result? The system not only got gubbed, but its failings also got partially exposed.

21

Frank,

Glasgow 31/07/2006 13:35:33

Anthony, once the Justice One Committee has looked at the case, Pauline McNeil's feeling that it does not have enough power to get to the bottom of things may result in a public inquiry or a judicial inquiry. Then Shirley McKie will have to answer the questions put to her whether she or her father likes them or not. No msps or relatives will interject for her then. The reopened book will naturally fall open at precisely the pages she has tried to tear out - her perjury. She will have to skilfully duck and dive as it is most likely going to be thrown at her.

22

Anthony,

Glasgow 31/07/2006 13:47:24

Paul, maybe it is beyond my appreciation. But if for example Einstein's theory on relativity, and Witgenstein's main and later theories, and the use of statistical aggregating in sport can all be explained in layperson terms, I sort of suspect that so too can the essentials of fingerprint evidence.

23

Paul,

31/07/2006 14:16:43

I am referring to the case as a whole, one cannot ignore the wider context.

The McKies have dominated the arguement for 9 years, the tables are turning. You misrepresented Peter Swann and you deserved to be challenged on that.

Shirley McKie was cleared of perjury, but underlying ideology when discussing miscarraiges of justice is that the police and justicary are fallable.

Perhaps an inquiry into how somebody can get away with committing perjury at their own perjury trial would be more useful.

Read Lord Johnston's summing up, read the transcript that concerns McKie's failure to acknowledge Peter Swann in her evidence.

I agree that everybody should be able to have confidence in the justice system, and that includes the victims and the victims families.

It is a point of considerable arguement whether or not the system slipped up on this occassion, to paraphrase Alistair Geddes, maybe the slip up was simply that "somebody couldn't keep their hands in their pockets".

24

Renfrew Rant,

an undisclosed location 31/07/2006 14:54:40

Well these are all very interesting comments I have to say. Something not mentioned is that the US FBI is one group of fingerprint experts who dispute the findings and state the print does not belong to McKie. We all know that the Americans do not make mistakes so that should be fairly conclusive I would think.

25

Searchlight,

Glasgow 31/07/2006 15:39:48

It is important that people read the document before passing comment. Had anyone done so they would have found that it was written in December 2005 it has not surfaced until now. As my namesake said the McKies must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel. They would also know that McKie supporter Arie Zeelenberg was involved in its preparation. That’s right, the same Zeelenberg who organised the online petition. Dror’s methodology is extremely suspect. For instance he gave the ‘experts’clues like the suspect was in jail at the time of the crime or the suspect has already admitted to the crime. He does not identify the experts who took part in this ‘game-show’. Dror tells us that in total the six contestants had thirty-five years experience between them. An average of less than six years. SCRO officers do at least five years training. All the article tells us, after the goobly-gook is stripped off, is that people, including experts, make mistakes for all sorts of reasons. Pardon me but we already know that. Surely the important thing is how mistakes are dealt with. The Texas sharp-shooting self-taught statistician Steve Horn corrects his mistakes on an almost daily basis by rewriting his nonsense. Maybe he should take a lesson from him another McKie supporter, Allan Bayle, and simply shut up. Roll on September when Justice 1 reconvenes. We’ll see more charlatans exposed then!

26

,

31/07/2006 15:41:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 21166, Article id was mapped to record!
27

James,

Scotland 31/07/2006 18:50:15

Anthony, I'm not sure your right about one of the first experts changing his mind. if you mean malcolm graham, he's said he thinks he got it right.

28

Heid's full o'mince,

Renfrewshire 31/07/2006 22:27:55

Anthony,

'I hear further revelations may be afoot concerning another area of Scottish prosecution expert testimony, which if bourne out, will make the McKie case look like a gentle prelude'. As Mike/12 in Edinburgh has already asked politely...do tell...or are you just getting a little bit gallus...?

29

Debbra,

USA 01/08/2006 03:44:22

It is plain to see much work must be done to ensure the criminal is behind bars, not the innocent victim. If the criminal remains free, society is still in extreme danger of the original criminal. I do not think a person would stop doing what they have gotten away with simply because someone else is in jail for their crime. Trials are costly and if a person does not have the funds, chances are they will go to jail. Electronic fingerprints sound great, but it takes a human to enter the information needed, thus, the computer makes a mistake, from information entered and an innocent person still goes to jail. People who call themselves "experts," should never be allowed the information on any person suspected of a crime. That would slim the chances significantly on who is considered the criminal. Given enough information almost anyone could go to jail for something they did not do. It is not uncommon anywhere. But those people who are innocent, found guilty, then innocent, still stay in prison until the "paperwork" is completed. The opinion has already been made and what does that person do to get their life back? Monetary value is the least a government can do. These so called "experts" should have more at risk, have more responsibility for claiming who the "criminal" is. Not just, "Oh well, I was wrong" then continue leading their lives as though nothing has happened, when in fact how many lives have their "expert opinion" ruined? I say there should never be any doubt, and those who are ready, willing, and able to have a person convicted on "their say so" should be held responsible for "their opinion." Adopting much strickter guidelines is the only way to ensure less "mistakes" happen.

30

L Stenner,

Somerset 01/08/2006 06:06:06

Can someone explain to me, why does it matter if the thumb print did belong to Shirley McKie, she didn't commit the murder, or is someone trying to imply that if it was her print, she was involved. from my understanding of the case, and having read most of the paperwork, I get the impression the four fingerprint officers, particularly McBride, have alot to answer for, or am I wrong?.

31

Paul,

01/08/2006 08:24:28

I don't know why the idea of a nosey cop was initially such a big deal. This is one of the unanswereds.

It's obvious somebody has been out to get McKie, perhaps harbouring a grudge against her former cop father or because of the previous disciplinary against McKie.

If you believe SCRO, McKie's print was found at the locus, they can pinpoint the approxomite period when the disputed print was left (and guess who was working at the scene)

The SCRO did not make anything of this, other than an investigating officer could be eliminated.

Somebody within the Police or PF office has seized upon this information (perhaps because of the alleged grudge).

McKie, with a career to fight for (in the wake of ther previous disciplinary) denied being at the locus.

Asbury was tried and convicted, McKie denied being in the house at the trial and was subsequently tried for perjury.

After her aquittal Asbury was freed on appeal, pretty much as a result of McKie's campaign and thanks to Wertheim and his colourful, easily digestable claims.

This is why it IS such a big deal now?
Nobody really gives that much of a damn about Shirley McKie or her litigious father, however the fall-out from this case is that a murderer goes unpunished and four people have faced almost a decade of slurs, lies, innuendo, have had their careers stalled, suspended, investigated and reinvestigated.

All they have done is their job, even the McKie friendly Mcleod had to concede that.

The SCRO officers were not out to get McKie, Peter Swann was not out to get McKie, Malcolm Graham was not out to get McKie, they simply didn't sing from her song sheet.
McKie was a nobody, again if somebody was out to get her, why? Why was it so important for somebody to get her?

The McKie campaign have focused on the SCRO as their nemisis. A cynic may conclude that it is because the SCRO officers cannot fight back (yet....)

If there was somebody o

32

Searchlight,

01/08/2006 08:30:49

The reason it mattered whether or not the print was McKie's is two fold. She had been in trouble before for a similar offence and had been specifically warned not to enter the house. She would have been disciplined and may even been sacked, lost her pension and brought embarrassment to her family (mostly police officers)
The other reason is that having an unidentified mark at the scene would have helped Davis Asbury's defence. Since McKie went to Asbury's lawyers and told them she had been fitted up by her colleagues readers can decided which motive prompted McKie to deny she had been in Marion Ross's house.

33

Frank,

Glasgow 01/08/2006 09:08:56

At least the four fingerprint officers, have answered a lot at the the Justice One Committee. More than Shirley did. That is because Shirley has, at the very least, her perjury to answer for. The book was no doubt reopened on her for a reason.

34

Bill69,

Glasgow 01/08/2006 11:43:30

Ah Lester, have you been on the scrumpy when reading 'most of the paperwork' to reach a conclusion that McBride in particular has a lot to answer for? What tosh! She deserves a gong for maintaining a position of silent integrity for 9 yrs in the face of a very personal vendetta against her & SCRO colleagues. Please read again Peter Swann's precognition taken for the Solicitor to the Scottish Exec - if that doesn't plant a reasonable doubt in your mind about the McKie Campaign then best take a nap & sleep it off.

Why such a fuss about McKie's mark being found on the door standard of the room in which poor Ms Ross's body was found? Well, perhaps Inspectors Linley, Morse, Wycliffe et al would ignore it, but in a real police investigation, every piece of evidence must be considered, & nowadays, disclosed to the defence team. This was a murder inquiry & the crime scene had been contaminated by a mark belonging to an officer on the inquiry who then denied it was hers. That issue had to be resolved.

What's rarely reported is the huge amount of investigation & chin scratching that took place following the discovery of mark Y7. This included the work of Malcolm Graham called in to independently examine & assess the disputed mark Y7 & others. Graham identified Y7 as belonging to Shirley as well as Asbury's marks on the wrapping papers in Ms Ross's home & the victim's prints on the metal tin containing well over £1,000 that was found in the home of an unemployed man who was so depressed because of money worries that he went missing from his home. Perhaps he was thinking about that money when he took over 50 seconds & started sobbing when asked to answer a simple question during taped interview, "David, did you kill Marion Ross?" Asbury eventually managed to mumble "No", but his jury were less than convinced by the inordinate delay in his answer.

But the media love nothing more than a murky cons

35

Anthony,

Glasgow 01/08/2006 11:44:55

Raymond, you begin your post by chastising the rest of the board for supposedly not reading the report, but then display a profound misunderstanding of it yourself. Your main criticism of the Zeleenberg report's methodology is that: "he gave the experts clues" about the suspects, such as them being in jail. Raymond, what's the report about? I think you'll find it's about how the context can affect an expert, and influence his or her opinion of a case. The whole point, was to deliberately give such clues, which under controlled conditions prove context did indeed have a major impact on two thirds of the experts. As for not identifying the experts who took part, this is common in most research both quantitative and qualitative. I fail to understand how this could in any way influence the the outcome of the tests. Mistakes can be made for all sorts of reasons as you say. But the value of this report, was that it pin pointed a specific major cause, and it did so by comparing results with context and results without context. It prove mistakes were far more likely when context and emotive information were present. As for the co/author of the report having had a position on the McKie case, you've again lost me. How is that relevant? The report wasn't about the McKie case. Because an expert has taken a position on an issue, does not automatically invalidate any subsequent research they engage in. To suggest so, is irrational. It seems to me to have been a sound and valuable peice of research.

36

Paul,

01/08/2006 12:26:21

Anthony, Zeelenburgs involvement is important because it has been raised in the context of the McKie case and Zeelenburg is not merely involved in the McKie case he is a major instigator in their campaign against the SCRO, the only reason you can make the futile 'numbers game' argument is because of the internet campaign managed by Zeelenburg.

Once again Zeelenburg's impartiality is compromised. By assocaiton I E Dror's study being used in this case is also compromised.
Zeelenburg clearly has an agenda, yet despite he and Bayle misleading the media over subsequent cases he is still given press coverage.

He is out to get the SCRO. Because of the Evett & Williams report perhaps?

Iain McKie doesn't seem to realise this, Zeelenburg is using the McKie case for his own ends, damaging what little credibility the McKie campaign has managed to retain amongst their former friends in the media.

Zeelenberg has been discredited by his own mistakes, Bayle has been discredited by his own mistakes, maybe they just aren't very good at this fingerprint malarky.

Wertheim hasn't had any serious credibility to lose (to J1 paraphrased "I can't provide original scans because I haven't got them anymore, nope of the 100 or so scans I've saved not one, I've lent them all out and never got them back, silly me, I didn't make back up's, didn't think they were important enough to keep locked away", there are very big claims made on the strength of this material that he can't produce)

Once it's over Zeelenburg, Bayle and Wertheim shall go on to the next fingerprint case (no doubt followed by Shelly Joffre) and forget all about poor wee Shirley and her dad, leaving them in the smouldering ruins they've propagated (see the Macnamara case)

37

Searchlight,

Tayside 01/08/2006 12:50:00

Anthony, when are we getting these further revelations you keep harping on about?
PS With regard to Zeelenberg's involvement, two other collaborators in this fanciful project also signed McKie’s on-line petition. I wonder what the odds on that being a random event are? If you really believe this is about independent scientific research then good luck to you.

38

Anthony,

01/08/2006 14:58:34

Paul and Mark; the problem for you both, is that if you are going to work your way through all the experts who say SCRO got it terribly wrong in the McKie case you're going to take up a lot of space on this message board, typing in the 171 names of leading experts from around the World. (Are you going to try and discredit each one of them?) And that's not counting the five experts from SCRO itself, who also believe SCRO got it wrong. Zeelenberg is just one of many - nearly every expert who has seen the prints and who has expressed an opinion on the McKie case, (which I repeat is not what Zeelenberg's report is about anyway), say SCRO got it badly wrong. SCRO's own staff say SCRO got it wrong. Short of using glove puppets, I can't see any simpler way of making that clear. You are wrong. Not correct. In error. The opposite of right. There is no way you can viably claim that the Zeelenberg report is flawed because his impartiality has been compromised, simply because he took a side in a dispute, together with dozens upon dozens of other experts who agreed with him. If that were the case courts of law would never be able to get any experts, most have taken a position on something to do with their field of expertise at some time. And as for electronic copies of the full prints being shown to experts, where's the problem in that? Better than the electronically cropped and doctored ones SCRO tried to punt. Something I've noticed about the pro-SCRO posters on this thread, is a tendancy to play the man rather than the ball. Nowhere is one rational objection to Zeelenberg's work demonstrated, and the same applies to the assaults on the pro-McKie experts work, its all personal attacks, and unsubstantiated rumour. And Mark, far from my supposedly harping on about 'further revelations', I think you'll find that I referred to them just once, and if you read the post, you'll also note that I did not state that I would be making any.

39

Searchlight,

tayside 01/08/2006 16:11:47

Yes, very good, but what about the revelations?

40

Paul,

01/08/2006 17:48:52

No Anthony, I'm not going to try and discredit these 171 "experts", they've done that themselves by adding their name to Zeelenburgs list on the basis of Pat Wertheims poor quality images of the sabotaged print.

It's back this numbers game you enjoy so much, but even the dugs on the street know it carries no weight.

Anything that zeelenberg is involved in that refers back to the McKie case has to be questioned, he clearly has a bias, he is staunchly pro- McKie, so anything he says about the case (using I E Dror as a front or otherwise) cannot be taken as the view of an impartial observer.

Okay, a rational objection to Zeelenburgs analysis, he doesn't seem to grasp that the ridge pattern changes shape as pressure is applied.

Zeelenburg eliminates a print after he finds one point that doesn't match, rather than try to explain why it doesn't match. By Zeelenburgs logic a print with 31 points in agreement and one point HE CAN'T EXPLAIN isn't a match. Professionals try to explain the discrepancy before ruling the print out. Maybe this is why his team fared so humiliatingly badly in the Evett & Williams trial, and why he keeps on making very public mistakes.

The crop was to deal with the relevant area, again becuase the hard of thinking can't grasp the effect pressure on an impression the areas outwith the crop could confuse defence "experts" like Wertheim.
The SCRO are not alone in cropping, even some of those friendly to the McKies do it.

What is your stance on running an internet campaign with pre-marked up images? This is as about as subtle as Dror's subliminal messages.

If you had read the submissions to the committee you would see that this idea of the five experts within the SCRO is a fabrication by the McKie campaign which the media have lapped up (why?, well Iain McKie always gives a quote, the SCRO can't, unfortunately anybody else who does usually gets a threatening phonecall and so

41

Searchlight,

02/08/2006 08:15:39

At last! McKie has put this article on his website. Let's just hope that eveyone reads the comments!
Roll on September and Justice 1 reconvenes.

42

Paul,

02/08/2006 08:27:08

“The bottom line Paul, is that hundreds, maybe even thousands of disadvantaged people reliant on legal aid, are wrongly convicted on the back of bogus'expert' evidence every year in Scotland. They can't fight back because they probably never even get to know about the flaws. The system is so stacked against them” Anthony, this forum.

It's heartening to see your concern about miscarriages of justice, many associated with this case share your concerns about bogus experts, who incidentally can be used to get crooks off with crimes (such as perjury and murder?) as well.

Yep, many people feel strongly that the system is strongly stacked against the ordinary punter, one former cop, Les Brown, a man who gave nearly 30 years of his life to serving the criminal justice system (to use Iain Anthony McKie's phraseology) set up a charity to address this, in his submission to J1 he gives his account of how the McKie campaign affected his charities work:

“In 2002 along with two others I formed a voluntary organisation, A Search for Justice, which to date has assisted 32 families to obtain justice when they thought that they had been let down by the police and others. On 5-3-06 this organisation was disbanded after a telephone conversation between one of the co-founders and Ian McKie. It would appear that McKie knowing that I had agreed to assist the SCRO officers involved in the Shirley McKie case had threatened to sue. The others took cold feet but I didn't and have continued my investigations.”

Couple this with the stipulation the McKie campaign tried to impose on the Justice 1 committe that they pre-suppose Shirley's innocence (how can an enquiry be free to fulfill it's remit with such stipulations? Especially when Shirley's innocence is a subject of intense debate at the very core of the SCRO's conclusions) and readers may get a fuller understanding of how the McKie campaign works.

43

Anthony,

Glasgow 02/08/2006 09:08:53

Paul, (40) you make much of the fact that the electronic copy of the print that Pat Wertheim sent to the 171 of the World's top fingerprint experts had been "sabotaged" as you put it. But who did the sabotaging? SCRO, not Mr Wertheim! Your argument also seems to be 'Pat Wertheim's opinion cannot be trusted. It cannot be trusted because he concludes the print was not Shirley McKie's'. So what you are really saying, is that anyone who doesn't agree with your own conclusions, has an unacceptable bias. Yet, the very small minority of experts, such as the Peter Swann who support your position aren't baised at all according to you. I return to the point in my earlier post, everything you say is based on the premise that the print must have been Shirley McKie's. But the problem neither yourself or any of the other pro-SCRO contributors can address, is that the overwhelming opinion within the forensic academy, is that the print should never have been identified as Shirley McKie's. And we now know that this was also the majority opinion of the SCRO officers originally asked to look at the print. On a slightly wider issue, am I the only one who can see the very great danger in such a system? Ten experts within SCRO may look at a print or some other form of forensics, and seven may judge it a negative. But if three call it a positive, it can then go forward as forensic evidence against the accused. The only report then conducted, is by the minority 'positives', and so the defence will probably never get to know of the strong doubt. Whatismore, the report by the minority of experts, is then presented to the accused as overwhelming evidence of his or her guilt, and passed onto the single defence expert the accused is often allowed if he or she is reliant on legal aid. That expert, is then confronted by three experts stating emphatically that the results show x. As much research demonstrates (including some of the most famous test results in psychology), people are i

44

Paul,

02/08/2006 09:31:37

171 of the worlds top fingerprint experts? I have issue with your use of the words 'top' and 'experts'.
Others, including some of those apparantly named have issue with the '171' bit.

You aren't making an allegation of sabotage against the SCRO are you? I didn't make an allegation against any named sabatour, merely an observation that by the time Mr. Wertheim had taken his photographs (now lost, oops, that wasn't very expert or profesisonal now was it, especially when you are staking your reputation and attempting to tarnish those of others on the same photographs) there were big scratches through the print that weren't there originally.

It's up to the reader to draw any conclusion they wish from the fact that Wertheim was acting for the McKie campaign and that he failed to report the scratches.

Pat Werheims opinion cannot be trusted because, like Steve Horn, he is cheerfully self-taught,and because he cannot back up his claims by hard evidence, other than the blurred low resolution images on Zeelenburgs petition.

If Peter Swann is so biased then why did Shirley McKie's defence originally go to him?, if he is as inept and incopetent and as biased as the McKie campaign has tried (and failed) to make out, then it suggests that they don't vett their experts very well (as we know from Zeelenburg, Bayle, Dempster & Mcloeds dodgy claims on subsequent prints, as we know from the fact that the credibility, and in fact authenticity of the 171 signatories is highly suspect)

The overwhelming opinion of the fingerprints academy? Anthony, you'll never win on the numbers game son, give it up.

The only dangers I can see is that we are having this conversation at all, McKie, her father and her supporters should have been shut down years ago.
Their time is coming though. Roll on September.

45

Anthony,

Glasgow 02/08/2006 09:42:45

Paul, I also wanted to deal with your 'rational' response (40). You criticise Zeelenburg for supposedly eliminating a print because for example a ridge doesn't match. You explain the effect of pressure can change the shape a little. You tell us that professionals would seek to explain why the pattern doesn't fit before eliminating it. But is there any control on the number of times you are allowed to do so on the one print? And what about the extent to which a discrepancy can be explained away? You criticise Zeelenburg for supposedly disregarding as many as 37 affirmatives because he finds one negative which does not exactly fit. But you can see the flip side of this I'm sure? Namely that the 37 affirmatives in your example could be comprised largely of these 'made to fit' affirmatives. That seems to me, to be leaving the feild of science altogether, and entering into the art of semantics. But needless to say, to the accused and juries, it is then presented as 'scientific'. Your explanation that the crop is justified because the 'hard of thinking' (by which I assume you mean all non-SCRO people), would get confused by it, is frankly staggering. As you've probably gathered Paul, I'm no fingerprint expert. But I do have a passing acquaintance with research method, including statistical analysis. If the print is being scored, withdrawing part of the print, could effect the score. It's not for SCRO to decide what is and what isn't relevant for the defence to see. How many times have things like this happened that we haven't had exposed?

46

Paul,

02/08/2006 10:09:16

You misread my post Anthony, I said 31 points in agreement and 1 unexplained. Not 37. Sorry to be pedantic but you see I didn't choose 32 overall points as a number out of thin air. It is of course double the admissable number for positive identification, and by happy coincidence, the number that John Berry & Peter Swann find in agreement with no discrepancies.

By even happier coincidence this is four times the number required for the elimination purposes at a locus such as the door way over Marion Ross's body.

Peter Swann's charts have been submitted to the committee and you can view them at the Scottish Parlaiment J1 SCRO site. At the time of writing this post Pat Wertheims source images are still missing, the ones that exsist on zeelenbergs petition are a joke.

This whole quagmire of statistics is a red herring put out by the McKie campaign (a bit like the insulting Lockerbie diversions), Horns methods and rewrites are laughable, Dror's report is comprised by the big dutch bloke hovering around in the background.

It's very simple, may I borrow your (latex?) glove puppets for a second?

EITHER MCKIE WAS IN THE HOUSE OR NOT.
THE SCRO HAVE NOT MADE ANY MISTAKES, THE MCKIE EXPERTS AND EXTERNAL REVIEWERS HAVE HAD TO APOLOGISE AGAIN AND AGAIN. THEY HAVE BEEN PEER REVIEWED. THE ONLY PROBLEM AT THE SCRO IS IN IAIN MCKIE'S HEAD.

The media are coming round, the public are coming round, the msp's are coming round (on all sides) and I'll tell you what, folk don't like being conned. Roll on Spetember.

47

Anthony,

Glasgow 02/08/2006 10:20:19

Paul, I stand corrected on the numbers. But I would be interested to know where you stand on the broader point I made. Is there perhaps a structural flaw in the way expert evidence is utilised in Scotland, which could lead to the innocent being convicted and the guilty walking away free, with a particular bias against the poor?

48

Searchlight,

02/08/2006 10:26:27

I think we're losing the plot here. This comment is supposed to be about Bottom Dror's rubbishy article, not about Iain McKie.
By the way is that the same Iain McKie who tried to intimidate Malcolm Graham, tried to gag his daughter's defence expert Peter Swann and had Allan Bayle as a house guest?

49

Anthony,

Glasgow 02/08/2006 11:03:52

Well, evidence showing people often do see what they believe they are expected to see (I think psychologists call it filtering), is now so well documented, that it seems silly to dispute it without some sort of bombshell new evidence. Human beings constantly filter, it's how we make sense of reality, and avoid overloading our senses. What Dror has done, is demonstrate this in the context of fingerprint experts. I don't understand what's so controverial about this. Is anyone suggesting someone is immune to normal human function because they happen to work for SCRO? I think the wrong end of the stick has been grabbed by those supporting the SCRO Four. Stand back and look at what the report is actually saying, and its implications.

50

Paul,

02/08/2006 11:10:51

Anthony, for once we agree, I think the innocent SCRO officers would too: there are huge problems when perjurers and murderers walk on the strength of 'expert' witnesses shipped in by reasonably wealthy defendants.

Could Drors theory not apply to his own work, when say there is a number of published McKie supporters on the research team, and that the research itself references articles by the same McKie experts?

I'm sure Mr. Dror is a lovely man, and that his research will benefit somebody somewhere in the future, however the impartiality of it, the specific involvement of McKie campaigners (as opposed to people with a casual opinion) means that it's significance to the Mckie case is wholly undermined.

It's a bit like Han's Eyesenks studies into smoking and cancer, when the patron of the study is a cigarette comapny, well you have to see that there is an agenda there.

51

Bill69,

Glasgow 02/08/2006 14:27:13

Anthony, you seem to repeatedly miss an important point about 'bias' towards SCRO's position. Peter Swann didn't 'side with' SCRO but rather was chosen by Shirley as a leading and eminent FP expert to assist her defence against perjury. Swann very carefully examined the disputed print & identified it as Shirley's left thumb print. He reported this to Donald Findlay QC & quel suprise, was not called as a defence witness at her trial. Of course the Defence Team didn't have to disclose this to the Crown. It was only several years later at a FP conference when Swann heard Iain McKie declaring that "no other expert has examined the print & found it to be her's" that Swann felt compelled to speak out. The McKie's then systematically attacked Swann through professional misconduct proceedings but took cold feet when it came time to present their case before Justice Butler.
Swann isn't the only independent FP expert who identifies Y7 as Shirley's. There are plenty of others from outwith the SCRO community, notably John Berry. But to speak publicly is to risk the McKie Bandwagon rolling into town. For that reason, English FP bureaux have been warned away from taking a position on Y7 by ACPO chiefs.
Those who cannot identify Y7 have in all probablilty seen only the reproductions of the damaged print published on the Net & not the original, one-to-one photograph of the print, rosetta et al in situ. Many of those who can't or won't identify Y7 as Shirley's now have their reputations (& livelihoods) to fight for, whilst others have political axes to grind & careers to build.
Sadly this now appears to include people like David Mulhearn who appears keen to claim credit for the "new action" work of previous SCRO Directors who worked tirelessly in the past decade to modernise a world-class service.
This is clearly no longer about a silly 'slip-of-the thumb' but is now about the political futures of many i

52

James,

02/08/2006 18:29:27

a plague on both houses? no. tempting, but there's innocent people who deserve justice. can someone please help me get at some facts please?

Anthony (43) says the 'majority opinion of the SCRO officers originally asked to look at the print' was that the fingerprint wasn't Shirley's. I'd read the complete opposite that Cathy Jamieson said 10 said it was Shirley's 2 didnt know and nobody said it wasnt. Who's right? Has someone made an honest mistake?

Anthony (15) said Swann stuck to his original view but that a second defence expert changed his mind and apologised to the McKies. Can anyone name that second expert? As I said (27) it can't be malcolm graham because he said on record a few weeks ago that he still thinks it's Shirley's.

Hope someone can give me some spin-free facts?

thanks

53

Truth,

02/08/2006 22:34:10

If you want spin-free facts, take them from me.

Fact: More than one examiner has made a mistake in this case

Fact: There is only one right answer

Fact: Both "sides" are posting in this thread.

The spin-free fact is that the prints do not match. The people who are posting most of the lengthy comments in this column are either the "experts" who made the erroneous identifaction (and maintain their incorrect conclusions) or their legal representatives.

I feel there is an inherent psychological issue at play - do those who are wrong actually think the prints match, or is this whole thing just a charade to save face? If they actually believe the prints match, perhaps there is a psychological issue further than just bias. Is there some sort of "expert effect" later in life whereby with less and less information a specialist feels the same confidence in making decisions, until they basically justify away discrepencies and call things "matching" when they are clearly not?

54

Paul,

03/08/2006 00:39:40

Sorry Truth, wrong.
My spun response is:

Fact: More than one examiner has made a mistake.

Yep. Agreed. By some counts as many as 171 examiners.

Fact: There is only one right answer.

Yep. Agreed.

Fact: Both 'sides' are posting in this thread.

Absolutely. It makes a pleasant change from the one sided coverage that has been endured up until now.

I note that Zeelenberg's involvement isn't metioned in the original article. I'm sure Michael Howie had good reasons for leaving it out.

Either way it looks like a terrific own goal for the Mckies.

55

Paul,

03/08/2006 01:03:28

Fact: There is only one right answer.

Maybe somebody should tell John Mcleod, he doesn't seem to agree with Zeelenberg, Bayle, Wertheim, or Mike Thompson about an awful lot (which thumb the disputed print is from, how complex or easy it is, how many parts Y7 is in)

If, according to 'truth' there is only one right answer, well, they can't ALL be right can they?

Or is this the McKie campaign logic that as long as they agree with Iain & Shirley then they are okay?

Nobody can blame Iain McKie for trying to defend his daughter, it's what dads are supposed to do, sometimes though you've got to be cruel to be kind.

Certainly, adults should be able to speak up for themselves, especially when, as claimed, they have done nothing wrong and have nothing to hide.

56

Searchlight,

03/08/2006 09:04:34

Anthony some questions
1 We're STILL waiting on your revelations, where are they?
2 If Shirley's latent print (Y7) was under lock and key in Kilmarnock how can you suggest that SCRO damaged it?
3 Wertheim says he took 80-100 impressions (in ten minutes). Why did he not take a single rolled impression?
A point
You seem to be suggesting that because 171 people say something is wrong and only 169 people say it is right it must be wrong since a greater number say it is wrong. That would mean giving equal value to each opinion. A bit like saying, no don't laugh, the opinion of McKie's hero, Allan Bayle is somehow worth the same as the opinions of, say, Mike Pass, Peter Swann, etc. Attributing equal weight to opinions, research, etc., is clearly rubbish and is known in the trade as as the 'self-taught statistician's fallacy'.

Remember to tell us about the revelations Buddy, we're all ears!

57

Bill69,

Glasgow 03/08/2006 09:31:58

Truth - I hope to hear your evidence on oath @a public inquiry into this fiasco. I'm neither an expert nor a legal rep of SCRO Six, just someone who's read the documents & reached the conclusion that a public inquiry before a senior judge is what's needed to get to the truth. But that's a can of worms that our First Minister doesn't want to open!

James - The expert who apologised was indeed Malcolm Graham who on hearing the result of HMIC Report into Y7 in which Zeelenburg & others said it wasn't Shirley's, thought he must have made a mistake. Being a gentleman, he wrote an apology to the McKies that was then touted with glee to every hack and grandstanding politician that passed. However, years on as the truth emerged that other eminent experts had identified Y7 as Shirley's, Graham withdrew his apology & wrote further letters to The Herald & The Scotsman to confirm his views. Graham gave evidence to Justice 1 in June '06 along with other independent experts & resolutely confirmed his identification of Y7 as Shirley's left thumb print. Graham also explained why the print couldn't have been planted as Desperate Dan of the SNP tried to suggest in Neil's absence. Will the McKies acknowledge Malcolm's change of view?

How many SCRO staff made the identifications? This too was explained @the Justice 1 hearing by SCRO staff but neither Iain McKie nor Alex Neil were there to hear that evidence, eloquently put. Y7 had been identified as Shirley's left thumb print by no less than 10 experts by the time her trial was held in 1999. But due to the spectacular ineptitude of the Crown, only three of those experts were called to give evidence. Pat Wertheim & David Grieve's evidence for the defence introduced a 'reasonable doubt' & the jury quite properly reached the 'Not Guilty' verdict. Had the Crown first sent Y7 to other UK FP bureaux such as MetPol, Manchester & N Ire, the credibility of SCRO's identification would have been str


 

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