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Carriers of good news for the Clyde and Rosyth

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Published Date: 26 July 2007
TRADITIONALLY, champagne is only used to celebrate the launch of a new ship.
But yesterday, the celebrations in dockyards across the UK - and in Scotland in particular - were for the announcement that in nearly a decade's time, two new vessels will eventually set sail. After years of dithering and delay, the government has finally confirmed that it will order two new aircraft carriers to replace the Royal Navy's ageing carriers. Costing £3.5 billion and weighing 65,000 tonnes, they will be the biggest military vessels Britain has ever built.

So large and complex is the job of building the ships that no single shipyard can carry it out, so each of the huge hulls - which, at 56 metres high, will be taller than Nelson's Column - will be built in four massive sections, each weighing as much as 12,000 tonnes.

Confirming Scotland's important place in naval shipbuilding, two of the four sections in each will be built north of the Border. The Babcock yard at Rosyth will build the sterns and the BAE yard on the Clyde will make the bow sections - the new ships will be nose-and-tail Scottish. Yards at Portsmouth, Hampshire, and Barrow-in-Furness, Cumbria, will get the remaining work on the middle sections.

Each piece of work is likely to secure 1,000 jobs at each yard for at least a decade. Supporting work and second-tier contracts for the vast ships' superstructure and internal systems will probably secure thousands more posts.

And while it was not confirmed yesterday, it is likely that the final job of joining the hull sections will go to Rosyth, meaning the great ships will eventually be launched from the Fife shore.

Perhaps the only minor disappointment for Scotland in yesterday's announcement was the confirmation that the new carriers will sail from Portsmouth, not Faslane on the Clyde. After intense lobbying by Labour MPs, a Ministry of Defence review of navy bases decided against closing Portsmouth and basing the carriers in Scotland, although officials admitted yesterday that the option had been "very seriously considered".

Still, that decision could not dampen the celebrations that greeted yesterday's news in Scotland. Des Browne, who is both Defence Secretary and Scottish Secretary, said: "I am sure this will be warmly welcomed by all those working in both the Scottish and wider UK naval shipbuilding industry whose livelihood will be safeguarded by these contracts."

Jack Dromey, deputy general-secretary of the T&G section of the Unite trade union, said: "This is good news for Rosyth and the many other yards and businesses in manufacturing which will benefit."

Fife Chamber welcomed the "great news", and John Park, a former Rosyth dockyard worker now a Labour MSP for Mid Scotland and Fife, hailed "a fantastic economic boost for the local area, the yards on the Clyde and across Scotland".

Nicola Sturgeon, the deputy first minister and the SNP MSP for Govan, said: "This is great news for Govan and great news for the people employed at the yard. The yard has a bright future and this order goes a long way to confirming that shipbuilding will continue on the Clyde."

The news safeguards the future of all four yards.

Tim Ripley, defence analyst at the Centre of Defence and International Security Studies, said the technology was well-tested: "

There is lots of industrial politics involved to give work to different places.

"In terms of industrial technology there have been changes in the way ships are made. New designs mean that you don't have to build them all in the one place. This is a tried-and-tested method and has been used to build Type 45 destroyers. The work at each yard will be up to the same standard. It also means you can do the work a bit quicker, but it may actually cost more because four workforces are carrying out the work. There is always the risk that some mishap may occur when one section is being towed to another yard, but this is a remote risk."

Yet for all the jubilation, yesterday's announcement also raised significant questions: questions about the carriers, the Royal Navy and British defence policy as a whole.

For one thing, yesterday's announcement was about four years late. The MoD wanted to confirm the carrier project as early as 2003, but a succession of internal Whitehall squabbles over money and wrangling with the defence firms supposed to build the ships has repeatedly delayed the "main gate" decision.

Despite repeatedly insisting that the final delivery of the carriers would not be affected, the MoD yesterday admitted that HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince Charles will not enter service until 2014 and 2016 respectively. Originally, the ships had been timetabled to start work in 2012 and 2015.

To avoid a "capability gap" - a situation in which the UK has no functioning aircraft carriers - the navy will now be forced to delay the retirement of the existing aircraft carriers, HMS Ark Royal and HMS Illustrious. Both are already showing signs of age and will be over 30 by the time they are replaced.

Then there is the question of just what will be on the new carriers when they finally set sail. The government's plan is for each of the ships to carry 40 Joint Strike Fighters, US-made warplanes intended to succeed the ageing Harriers now in service.

The cost of buying 150 of the supersonic stealth fighters is likely to dwarf even the carrier contract - at least £10 billion and possibly much more. Already, the US-led JSF development project is reporting delays and cost overruns, hold-ups that could have serious consequences for the carriers.

Yesterday, one senior navy figure closely involved in the UK carrier project admitted it was "quite possible" that the new vessels will enter service without the aircraft they are designed to carry.

"At the moment, it is not possible to say when JSF will be ready," said the officer.

Nor can insiders be completely sure about how many fighters will be bought in the end. The carriers may be confirmed, but several other multi-billion-pound defence procurement projects remain in limbo, and analysts wonder what price the MoD will eventually have to pay for the carriers.

In particular, defence insiders are worried about the programme to build new Type 45 destroyers, smaller vessels that will guard and accompany the huge carriers around the world. The MoD wants eight new destroyers, but has so far ordered only six. The remaining two vessels are still part of the department's "planning assumptions", but it remains unclear whether the money to order them will be found in the wider defence budget.

That wider budget is the subject of intense political scrutiny and there was widespread suspicion yesterday that Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, used the carrier announcement as cover for a less-than-generous overall spending settlement for the MoD.

Pre-empting the comprehensive spending review in October, the government yesterday brought forward the announcement of the MoD's spending allocation.

The department gamely tried to present its settlement - a 1.5 per cent rise in real terms - as a victory. But with overall government spending set to rise by 2.5 per cent over the next three-year period, the consequence will be that "defence spending as a share of public expenditure will fall slightly", according to a senior MoD official.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 25 July 2007 9:34 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Shipbuilding
 
1

I'm no really here,

26/07/2007 00:19:21

Jobs secured?? Pity about the 17,800 redundancies at the three naval bases over the next three years.

"Yesterday, one senior navy figure closely involved in the UK carrier project admitted it was "quite possible" that the new vessels will enter service without the aircraft they are designed to carry." What a joke.

"Pre-empting the comprehensive spending review in October, the government yesterday brought forward the announcement of the MoD's spending allocation." Is he going to announce an election???

2

I'm no really here,

26/07/2007 00:26:52

With 17,800 redundancies as well as this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/tayside_and_c...

the MOD's bean-counters are working overtime.

3

Alice S,

26/07/2007 00:34:28

Brilliant news for the lads and lasses of the Scottish yards.

4

Stuart Howard,

birmingham 26/07/2007 00:36:59

How can Nicola Sturgeon say this is great news? it is, but an independant Scotland wouldnt be purchasing anything like thses ships.

5

Gizzmo,

West Sussex 26/07/2007 00:56:56

What is going to happen when Scotland declares independence? What on earth will they do with a huge steel ars3 ?

6

.sandy,

USA land of the freak, home of the slave 26/07/2007 01:55:40

Yes, you limeys need far more of these. Close your schools and close your hospitals, we'll keep our war on terrorism going so you can get the chance to use these boats for us.

7

.sandy,

USA land of the freak, home of the slave 26/07/2007 02:44:13

Have you built any more of these since i was here last?

8

Andrew XYZ,

Canada 26/07/2007 03:23:51

It's not going to be "HMS Prince Charles" it's going to be "HMS Prince of Wales" - which at least was the name of a World War Two era battleship. That's bad enough, but "Prince Charles" would be daft.

9

.sandy,

USA land of the freak, home of the slave 26/07/2007 03:39:52

Is it equipped with two massive listening devices?

10

Väinämöinen,

26/07/2007 05:27:43

We are meant to rejoice at this?

Tax payers' money is being transferred (expoitation) to private wealth (share holders) in return for temporary McJobs (exploitation) and a machine designed to kill our fellow human beings the maintenence of which will involve further costs?

Aye, i'll rejoice at that, right enough.

11

ex katman 2,

ex sudan 26/07/2007 06:21:53

Why would Scotland want independance to keep you bunch of losers, what a frightning future.

12

Mrs. Trellis,

Devon 26/07/2007 06:22:23

#10. Väinämöinen

Things is it's usually better to kill the people over there...before they come and kill us over here.

It's worked, 'more or less', up till now.

Mrs.T

13

Conan,

Here 26/07/2007 06:23:47

May well be short term 'good news', but otherwise a complete waste of money and of no earthy use to the future INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND.

14

The Strategist,

26/07/2007 06:29:12

But a Canadian company may end up maintaining and repairing RN, Army and RAF aircraft.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/6...

15

Dougie McGill,

Murrayfield 26/07/2007 07:13:51

Daft names for carriers

16

Nick_Byrne,

26/07/2007 07:20:04

#13 That's not strictly true, operations would be taken over by the merger of DARA and ABRO in Stirling.

Is this a big problem - Babcock runs most of our Naval bases anyhow.

Any decision to limit the Daring Class to just 6 is daft, you need three destroyers for each aircraft carrier and of course extras to allow for refit and repairs failure to provide eight we effectively reduce us to having just one aircraft carrier.

"one senior navy figure closely involved in the UK carrier project admitted it was "quite possible" that the new vessels will enter service without the aircraft they are designed to carry."

Why am I not surpirsed, no doubt the expected 150 odd planes will probably get cut back - that's if we go ahead with it.

The UK and Australia, both considering buy the things, hell we are helping to build them, have threatened to walk away from the deal unless the Yanks share all the technology - so that we don't have another one of theose Chinook disasters.

Interestingly Lord Drayson said if AMerica doesn't comply we have a Plan B - although he didn't mention what it was - most likely a marine adaptation of the Eurofighter.

17

Scottish AND British,

Edinburgh 26/07/2007 07:55:25

#10. So perhaps 'taxpayers' money' should only be spent on state-owned enterprises rather than being transferred to private companies through buying stuff? Therefore all the bureaucrats could only order pens and post-its from state-run factories, the school food should only come from state-run farms...therefore...oh, never mind, I've heard that sarcasm is wasted on the stupid so I'll stop now.

18

Geoff,

SA 26/07/2007 07:55:27

Nick Byrne-the sting in the tail with plan B is that the Carriers will have to be fitted with catapults,arrestor gear etc-huge extra cost!

19

Armageddon Outtahere,

26/07/2007 07:59:33

Stupid names for ships of war!!

Where's the Relentless. or the Dauntless?? The Ravager, Despoiler, Pillager, etc etc ??

Have all the good names been taken???

20

John Jamieson,

Edinburgh 26/07/2007 08:02:58

#4
We are not independent.

21

Joanna,

Cambs, England 26/07/2007 08:10:15

Any RAF, RN or Army, serving or otherwise.... and sympathetic supporters of the armed services might be interested in looking at the following petition to the government:


http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Headley/?signed=b0d8973.0ab7de

22

Simon M,

26/07/2007 08:18:25

#4 You are absolutely spot on - the welcomes given to this news by Salmond and Sturgeon reek of hypocrisy.

If they had their way, we'd have our own tiny armed forces, certainly with no aircraft carriers. So to welcome these jobs stinks of SNP double standards.

23

GM,

26/07/2007 08:41:59

@Simon M

What double standards?

I'm nationalist and happy to state that even if Scotland were independant, the contracts for this work were international. Do you think that would have stoppped somewhere like Rosyth being considered? After all it is the *only* facility in the UK large enough to carry out the assembly phase.

In essence, the SNP were happy that Scottish yards bid successfully for this work - nothing more nothing less. Independance would have had no bearing on any decision, so storp carping on about double standards that simply do not exist.

24

GM,

26/07/2007 09:08:18

@21 I would add that like yesterday, and a few contributors then, you seem to think that by supporting independance we would like nothing at all to do with any work from any other part of th eworld, including England.

25

Paddy of Mass Destruction,

Overtaxe, under sexed and under Broon. 26/07/2007 09:09:34

I wan't to know what defensive systems these ships will have to prevent them being boarded by a bunch of Revolutionary Guards in motor boats...
How much good is an aircraft carrier in Helmland or Basra?
I suppose a contract to produce new boots for the British Army isn't such a vote winner.

26

Olav,

Gdynia 26/07/2007 09:10:41

Unionist garbage. There is no dock at Rosyth capable of putting these big ships together. The ships are to be assembled at Aker San Nazaire in France. Scotland will be lucky to get 15% of this contract. Its all irrelevant in any case as we do not need two very expensive floating airfields to protect GB; these are just high-level navy folk playthings and for Westminster politicians to beat their Britannia Rules the Waves drum. In other words a total waste of our cash.

27

Venom217,

Glasgow 26/07/2007 09:10:52

I heard the Govan MP on the radio this morning moaning about not getting enough public money to train apprentices to work for BAE in the yards.

Since when did it become necessary for the taxpayer to pay for a private company (who made record profit announcements this year) to train apprentices to work for it?

Time this minister went to BAE and asked how they are going to use part of their extensive profit earnings to ensure that apprentices are in place and trained up for the 2 carriers in Govan.

28

The Strategist,

26/07/2007 09:37:16

#15

So it's OK is it for overseas companies to run defence outfits like this is it?

Strategically it is completely and utterly stark raving mad. It just means it's another sector we're not going to be able to compete in globally..

As you say - Babcock (now owned by the S Koreans) runs the dockyards.. How far will it go?

29

TaffonTravel,

Edinburgh 26/07/2007 09:49:36

this is just arms industry evolution but still a waste of money. our war on terror needs this money and improving our intelligence services, MI6 etc is our priority. Conventional warfare is soo last century.

30

shivago8,

livingston 26/07/2007 09:51:13

Well done Gordon but where are we going to get the matelots to sail in these good ships of yours.Are you sure it is not a vote catcher.The English are slow in placing there protest and the West Lothian question is about to raise it,s ugly head again.Might speak to you if I get a chance at the funeral of the brave young BW soldier in your constituency of Kirkcaldy today.

31

Heidegger,

Fife 26/07/2007 10:05:07

Given the Christian at the helm, these
warships (warships) should be named
H M S Jesus Christ & - for the sake of
"inclusiveness" - H M S Judas Iscariot.
Alternatively, White Elephant 1 & White
Elephant 2.

32

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 26/07/2007 10:36:59

#26 Aircraft carriers are incredibly important - not only are they an effective projection of power and mobile launch platform - how do you thin the RAF get their shiny jets around the world?

They don't fly them; the RN takes them in their big boats to allied bases.

We need big ships.

33

'Hezza,

26/07/2007 10:52:30

Its good that we have won the contracts, but i disagree with what sturgeon said, that it wouldn't matter if we were independent, we would still compete and win these contracts...total rubbish. They would go to Barrow, Plymouth, or anywhere else, even if it were to cost substantially more.

These contracts are awarded for political, as much as transparent procurement reasons (anyone that thinks any different is naive in the extreme). I wouldn't mind betting that the decision was made because there are alot of Scots in the cabinet, Broon is PM, and it helps to reassert to the yard workers and their families that their employment is a dividend of the Union.

34

Edward,

26/07/2007 11:05:42

32 'Hezza
Business is Business and in the business world it doesnt matter a rasberry fart where ships (or anything else) are built. The main criteria is that the workforse are capable, have a good record of producing on time and that the cost is competative
So in an independent Scotland, as long as the yards can comply with those criteria, then the work will come. Or are you saying that the yards on the clyde and rosyth only got the work based on political choice and not on merit?

35

Douglas Eckhart,

Edinburgh 26/07/2007 11:56:57

In answer to some points here, the shipyards of an independent scotland would still continue to bid for contracts from around the world just as any other country. The MOD awarded this contract to them because they have the facilities, pure and simple.

The fact is, we only have a tiny precentage of our original shipbuilding capacity now since most of the clyde shipping industry, including the all important COMMERCIAL shipping industry was scrapped by successive Labour administrations who were seeking to 'modernise'.

You have Labour to blame for the complete destruction of the shipping industry in Scotland so it is a wonder that Glasgow labourites are so keen to defend them and give them praise when they offer them a morsel like this current military contract.

36

Gordieboy,

Musselburgh 26/07/2007 12:13:54

#31 - congratulations on the wrongest post of all time. The Navy has precisely nothing to do with the deployment of RAF kit, which is indeed flown around the world, supported by air-air refuelling aircraft and FOBs (Forward Operating Bases) in 'friendly' states en route to where they are required. The only aircraft carried on ships are Royal Navy helicopters such as the Lynx and Merlin, and the Harrier GR7s which the Navy has 'borrowed' from the RAF to make up for the shortfall following the government's appalling decision to get rid of the Sea Harrier. The last time the RN carried RAF aircraft was the Falklands conflict 25 years ago - hardly a standard operating scenario.

I accept that your post may have been tongue-in-cheek - in which case fair enough. If not - kindly check your facts before posting inaccurate nonsense.

37

Memyself&I,

26/07/2007 12:21:08

#34
Aye, they could bid for contracts but wouldn't have a hope in hell of winning this contract if Scotland was indie.
They could bid for all the damn contracts they wanted but cheaper bids from overseas would see them off each time.

38

Steve,

Rosyth no more 26/07/2007 12:35:34

Having worked in Rosyth for 15 years prior to redundancy, I have to ask who will do the work??
There's hardly anyone left in the yard who has the skills needed. numbers have been going down by around 200 a year.

Watch this space... cheap labour from Poland, swathed in tartan overalls and passed off as Scottish jobs!

39

jd1,

edinburgh 26/07/2007 12:38:29

#22 GM

No, and dont be so niave.

This is not an 'international' contract, this is a contract given by HM government to buy warships. Under EU rules warships for a sovereign govt can be awarded to whomsoever the govt pleases.

So come on, under an independant scotland (or england) there is not a snowballs chance in hell the contract would have gone anywhere but to an english yard.

Oh, and the govt would also not award contracts to bae sytems in edinburgh or have planes stationed at lossiemouth, kinloss, leuchars or anywhere else north of the border.

What we would have are two hangliders, a couple of baths and a rubber duck.

And the Duke of Atholl would have the largest standing army in Scotland. So there!!

40

Edward,

26/07/2007 13:09:17

38 jd1, edinburgh
Its actually you who is being niave, to the point of being ignorant!
An Independent Scotland would have its own standing Navy and air force. The Navy will require ships to be built at some stage to replace those or to enhace those that Scotland will have as part of the 'divorce settlement', it will alos have and be entitled to aircraft for its air force.
Bae systems and other military contractors based in Scotland would have to compete based on merit for contracts for the Scottish miltary. An independant Scotlant will reuire the use of the existing bases of Lossiemouth, Kinloss, Leuchars for its air force as will the Royal Navy bases on the Clyde and Forth

41

SeriouslyAmused,

26/07/2007 13:11:03

#28

Dick, that's a different Babcock you are talking about, Doosan Babcock the energy equipment company headquartered in Renfrew.

The dockyards are run by Babcock International, a British company through and through.

42

SeriouslyAmused,

26/07/2007 13:26:39

26 Olav.

I don't know about unionist garbage, but what you have written certainly is rubbish.

The collaboration with the French is to share knowledge and processes to enable both countries to build as efficiently as possible aircraft carriers for each country. France just wants one. Our carriers most certainly will not be built at Saint-Nazaire.

For one thing it would be political suicide.

Rosyth is perfectly capable for the job and in any case, BAE Systems have a plan B, which is why they have taken on the lease of Inchgreen Drydock on the Clyde.

Sometimes you have to accept things rather than look for conspiracies.

43

Mikey,

26/07/2007 13:31:52

A few crumbs off the table and unionistas are ecstatic!

44

marginal,

on the floor Laughing 26/07/2007 14:05:29

Yes you can just see this coming can’t you ?? why don’t we get someone with the expertise to build these instead of having the spectacular cock-up that’s on its way
This is just bound to be another government Pooh-Bah
Save the money and ask the yanks or Germans to build it and save face as well
We know the bits wont fit together

45

MAIRAN,

REDRUTH, CORNWALL 26/07/2007 14:07:19

IT WOULD BE NICE IF THOSE WHO GIVE THEIR VIEWS TO THE SCOTSMAN SITE, WERE BRAVE ENOUGH TO GIVE THEIR GIVEN NAME AND CURRENT LOCATION, RATHER THAN HIDING BEHIND MADE-UP PSEUDONYMS!

46

marginal,

on the floor Laughing twice 26/07/2007 14:08:23

Will there be an Ipod Locker there for the trip to iran ??

47

jd1,

edinburgh 26/07/2007 14:30:22

#39 Edward

Er, no.

just because there is (i accept) an entitlement to 10% of planes, ships, guns etc, does not in any way shape or form mean that Lossiemouth, Kinloss and Leuchars will stay open. You really should stop being so silly and blinkered.

10% of current number of planes will mean less than 20 in total. Are you really saying that there will be a whole operation at all 3 air bases to support only 7 planes. Grow up man.

And bae in scotland will not be able to compete on merit beccause, as you well know, defence contracts from svereign govts do NOT have to go out to tender. they can be awarded to whomsoever the govt of the day chooses. Do you really believe for one minute and English prime minister would award contracts to scotland. Grow up man.

48

Edward,

26/07/2007 14:47:48

#46 jd1, edinburgh
Actually it will be 13% of Aircraft/Squadrons from the RAF and 10% of Ships
Total number of Squadrons is currently 53
but as it will not be a straight 13%, due to ceratin requirements, the most probablt number of Squadrons deployed to Scotland will be 8
Slightly more than the crap you came up with!
As for the Navy it will work out at around 19 ships out of current fleet of 103
Your really living in some etherial world if you beleive that Scottish companies cannot compete competatively, does say much about how you rate Scottich commerce!
As fo an English Prime Minister awarding contracts to Scottish companies, bear in mind that some companies on the MOD approved list are neither Scottish or English, but French and American, but you wouldnt know that as your in your etherial world of make beleive!

49

jd1,

edinburgh 26/07/2007 15:21:43

#47 Edward

Sorry, but you have missed the point completely.

Defence contracts are one of the very few areas that EU govts can award contracts WITHOUT it being done competitively. Its not that Scots based companies cannot compete, its that there will be NO competitive process except between english based companies.

It is also difficult to accept what you are saying when you (and your ilk) also complain bitterly that contracts for non defence work goes to Poland - because they are able to do the same work cheaper. Are you happy to see work going to poland or germany or japan or india on a competitive basis.

You cannot one day say it is wrong to give work won comepetitvely to poland and then also complain that work is being awarded to home based yards. You are trying to be all things to all people.

With regard the number of squadrons, how many of them are actually squadrons that fly planes/helicopters etc? Many of them will be training squadrons, support and logistics squadrons, air defecnce squadrons etc. The number of active planes will be less than 20! you really should stop making things up. ooops, sorry, the whole snp manifesto is made up nonsence - hence why so little of it is being implemented. All the costly bribes are being dumped!

50

Joanna,

Cambs, England 26/07/2007 15:35:44

Edward

Sorry to butt in on your debate, yes there are 53 squadrons listed on the RAF website but they are not all operational flying squadrons. The RAF call all their formations squadrons but some of them are ground based.

You may be quite shocked to know that there are very few flying squadrons left and the ones that are have very few aircraft between them. Systematic defence cuts have seen to that and the 'cold war dividend'!!

The personnel strength of the RAF was approx 90,000 plus in the early '80s it is now down to less that 45,000. I think much more money should be spent on defence because not to do so and to assume that world politics and threats will always stay the same is the option of fools.

Incidentally a large proportion of the personnel serving at Scottish RAF stations are English, Welsh or Northern Irish as well, if you take them away you won't have very much left to run an Air Force with.

51

jd1,

edinburgh 26/07/2007 15:43:38

#49 Richard
you said
"Scottish yards will get defence work from an independent Scottish government.

Also there is worldwide civilian market to compete in and for?"

What complete and utter gutteral nonsense. As non-members of NATO what requirement will there be for the SNP to have a standing Navy never mind buying or building more ships! SNP peacenicks and appeasers will see to that!

And as for competing on world wide basis, labour jobs go where labour costs are cheap, and that aint here matey!!

Oh and Edward, just checked, RAF Kinloss has 17 nimrods based there so on your ratios that measn it will have 2....yes 2 to keep a whole base open. Dream on matey and yet the snp drones up there keep voting for them. Unbelievable.

52

Edward,

26/07/2007 15:54:39

#48 jd1, edinburgh
First of all, can state that what Ive said has got nothing to do with the SNP or any other Independence movement, but actually based on independent studies on a 'what if scenario'
The possible/likely squadrons would be as follows :
Offensive Support - Sqn 617/Lossiemouth/Tornado
Air Defence - Sqn 43/Leuchars/Torando
Reconnaissance - Sqn 5/Waddington/Sentinal R1
Training - Sqn 207/Linton/ Tocano
Ops Conversion - Sqn 56/Leuchars/Tornado
Transport - Sqn 47/Lyneham/C130
Helicopter - Sqn 28/Benson/Merlin HC3
Maritime - Sqn 201/Kinloss/Nimrod
SAR - Sqn 202/Lossiemouth/Seaking
The final mix will be dependent on requirements

53

Edward,

26/07/2007 16:03:38

50 Joanna, Cambs, England
Fair comment, allthough according to the RAF's website they have 53 active squadrons based in the UK, Cyprus and the Falklands. Also appreciate that actual manpower is down from pre cold war levels
At the end of the day the nitty gritty will be down to negotiations and hopefully common sense, as I mentioned above its all from a 'what if scenario'
As for nationalities of personel, it is obvious that, taken from specicic based squadrons, there would be a lack of Scottish air crew actually based in Scotland to start with, but then it would be about rotating crews around, to have most if not all Scottish crews placed in Scotland from England and vice versa. In addition there would likely be an agreement between the two governments to share aircrew, so that crew levels remained realistic. Unfortunately it will not be an exact science, but youll find that something will be worked out

54

Joanna,

Cambs, England 26/07/2007 16:52:45

Edward,

Yes active squadrons but not flying squadrons .... some are RAF Regiment, some are training squadrons and some are logistics .... at the most only about 20 are flying squadrons.

Mind you, an aircraft doesn't get into the air by itself it needs a great deal of ground support as well, so it is not just a question of aircrews, although some of them like to think it is!

I have witnessed at first hand and from personal experience the rundown of the RAF ....... and I still have very close associations with it...... in fact you could say I am married to it now, I was once a child of it and also a member myself so I am talking from a personal view here.

I think that, in the event of an independent Scotland the best way forward is for full cooperation between the governments of this island on defence. This is a small island if one part were invaded so would the rest be and mutual cooperation has served us well in the past ...... I am sure it would again.

That is of course if there is anything left of the armed services after the next round of defence cuts.

55

Lang Spoon,

Leith 26/07/2007 17:04:43

At risk of being regarded as a party-pooper, this is a purely political decision, not based on actual service requirements.
As our government likes to fight foreign wars, the money should go to the ARMY, for less glamorous things like good boots, guns that work, lots of armored vehicles, bags of helicopters etc.

This is what the squaddies (who are actually doing the fighting!) really require; aircraft carriers are just big shiny toys to keep the admirals quiet; they may as well have a target painted on the flight-deck (we nearly lost one or both carriers in the South Atlantic to inexpensive Argentine missiles). Oh, and each carrier has to be escorted by a large selection of smaller ships, as they are not allowed out on their own.

56

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/07/2007 17:09:05

As I recall, this was the contract which was not going to Scotland if the SNP got into power.

Now it is after all - and with a proposed launching at a toon near Broon.

Just as well I'd had a pee before reading that.

57

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/07/2007 17:11:55

This paper is incredible, is it not? The bias is such that they must assume its readership believes in all that their fairy tale journalists write.

58

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/07/2007 17:14:19

I'll rephrase that. in all their fairy tale journalism.

Gerri Peev is a typical example on the Salmond story (sublimal big bad Alex)

59

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/07/2007 17:14:38

subliminal

60

daveserviceman,

Edinburgh 26/07/2007 17:40:07

The carriers will not be based in scotland but portsmouth england. if scotland goes independant the carrier contract will be move to france,
the royal navy already has back up plans to move the navy south.
the point of the carriers is to have a mobile airfield
so you dont have to use anyones land based one, the aircraft are flown by RAF pilots the royal navy squadrons were tranferred to th RAF a few decades ago I know the value of these ships having served on a large fleet carrier for a few years (hms victorious)

61

Maury D,

USA - California 26/07/2007 18:20:14

That's great!! Keep up the good work -- we need all the help we can get

62

gfaBlack,

Black again 26/07/2007 18:32:40

Well done to all the areas that will benifit from the influx of jobs.
Lets hope that the skills base required to build these ships still exists amongst the Scotish and English following the decades of neglect through various govornments.
But oh no its OK we have all the additional European labor and skilled workers to help us havent we.. Silly me..

63

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/07/2007 18:36:11

63, Dave. What happens if Scotland goes independent half way though the contract?

64

HEN BROON 5,

26/07/2007 19:07:00

The following post takes the first prize for being the biggest load of old bollocks ever posted on a public forum, for Gods sake see matron about your medication.

63. daveserviceman, Edinburgh / 6:40pm 26 Jul 2007 The carriers will not be based in scotland but portsmouth england. if scotland goes independant the carrier contract will be move to france,
the royal navy already has back up plans to move the navy south.
the point of the carriers is to have a mobile airfield
so you dont have to use anyones land based one, the aircraft are flown by RAF pilots the royal navy squadrons were tranferred to th RAF a few decades ago I know the value of these ships having served on a large fleet carrier for a few years (hms victorious)

66

HEN BROON 5,

26/07/2007 19:25:59

Scotland is the only place in the UK that can handle work of this nature. Years of hard fought battles by the Clydeside Trades Unions have paid of. They displayed courage and tenacity and complete and utter defiance in the face of adversity for decades. Keeping going whilst every obstacle was thrown in their path by multi nationals and our own unionist Goverments.They saved the Ship Yards and now it is pay back time.
Scotland as it always has done makes a disproportionate contribution to UK defence forces, making up 20% of their numbers, from 8% of the population. The UK forces in the Gulf will be 25% Scots by Christmas. When the going gets rough, send in the Jocks.
It is only right therefore that we here in Scotland receive these contracts, in recognition of our contribution to the defence of this Union.
If we decide to take our independence, the work will have begun and will be finished here. Scotland is now well place to start it's long overdue renaissance of it's magnificent shipbuilding industries which we were internationally recognised for. Over half the ships afloat in the early 20th century were built on the Clyde. The oldest shipping company in the world was Scottish. http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/object.cfm?ID=AA... An independent Scotland will have ships of her own to build, not least for her maritime forces to protect our assets in our territorial waters, which we will be well equipped to do.
ALBA GU BRATH

67

Pomodora,

Gravesend, Kent 26/07/2007 19:29:15

Britain is a maritme nation, or at least that is how it once was known. Can we reclaim that status with a work-force of low grade skills and non-existant training programmes. I seriously doubt the premise. I can see now the mass of Scottish workers arriving at the shipyards armed only with a kettle and a teacup and enquiring about the time of the first tea-break. As a taxpayer who demands value for my money, it would be prudent of our government to have these soon to be obsolete ships built off-shore with proficiency and at less cost to we stakeholders.

68

Conan,

Here 26/07/2007 19:56:37

#70 - both ships are already obsolete.

Each ship will require at least eight surface combatants, four submarines and as many as nine support vessels of various kinds to just have half a chance of survival in a 'hot' war.

If all they are to used for is the usual beating up of lesser armed opponents, then certainly they'll be fine.

The point is that Scotland, as an INDEPENDENT NATION will have no need for these, or anything like them.

It is likely that Scotland would be able to equip itself with a suitably-sized coastal patrol/police maritime service for many years for the cost of a couple of the surface combatants needs to proect these two white elphants.

We must stop allowing ourselves to be held in the grasp of the "UK'-contexed arguments and start seeing things in the light of what will be best for our future INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND.

69

HEN BROON 5,

26/07/2007 20:17:36

#70. You are entitled to your ignorant and ill informed opinion. Ship building on the Clyde is still going strong and has been for hundreds of years. there are several other smaller yards in Scotland doing rather well also.
http://www.clydesite.co.uk/engineering/index.asp
A little research on Google would have saved you from embarrassing your self in public.

70

HEN BROON 5,

26/07/2007 20:24:00

Further edification for "gormless from Gravesend."

http://www.baesystems.com/daring/index.asp

Launched from BAE Fairfields, Govan, Glasgow, Scotland, ahead of schedule and undergoing sea trials right now.

71

MT,

26/07/2007 21:07:08

really smart, just before the union(UK) breaks up, they waste billions on new carriers. how will you split them?

72

Dunnie,

Canada 26/07/2007 21:17:39

Sandy 5 & 6

You are the type of condescending and self-righteous Yank that many can't abide.


You throw your weight around and expect everyone to follow your lead - and if they don't - oh gee, they're anti-democratic and anti-Yankee ( nice ring to that; isn't there?).

By the way, my dear jingoist: where were was the brave US you in Aug 1914? Or better still; where were you in Sept 1939?

Not your war? Gosh, sounds like the same sentiments expressed by those who chose not to join in the Iraq disaster.

Oh, yes, we admit we couldn't have won both conflicts without you. However, we had the moral courage and fortititude to face facts. If you had done the same and renounce your isolationism, millions of lives would have been saved.

In terms of military procurement you might be interested that when the Americans finally did commit to combat late in 1917, they did so with without one single AMerican made aircraft and artillery piece. So don't lecture us on lack of military procurement.

You may supposedly be the "home of the brave and free". But from time to time, you are also the home of the terminally stupid - evidenced by your decision to twice elect George Dubbya and your posted messages.

Oh. by the way, if you do choose to come north - feel safe knowing that we don't live in igloos and we're not all lumberjacks.

73

,

26/07/2007 22:03:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 819926, Article id was mapped to record!
74

Ewen Miler,

Amesbury 26/07/2007 22:25:22

MT.

I think by the SNP's figures, Scotland pays for 12.5% of the Defence budget. I suppose, if it happens that will be what Mr Salmond tries to negotiate. As he doesn't like nuclear subs, whether Trident or nuclear powered, you can bet that Faslane will shut and they'll all move to Devonport.

If it happens, I'd bet the rest of the UK, will want all their forces based South - e.g. our entire Navy will easily fit in two Naval bases. Bringing more jobs for the surrounding communities. Indeed, round here, the local area is benefitting for more Army units being moved back from Germany. Furthermore, the JSF is planned to be based at Lossiemouth. Could base base them South of the border in either airfields that have been earmarked for closer or have already closed.

75

Dunnie,

Canada 26/07/2007 22:51:08

Sandy 76 - Oh my - I think you just proved my point.

Calling your allies scum - yes, allies - as we have lost soldiers in Afghanistan - only proves that you just don't get it.

By the way, I did my time in our Navy.

Also, I am the fifth generation to serve.

By the way, to call George Dubbya stupid is not to be equated with supporting terrorism.

And on a final note: It it interesting you didn't see fit to refute any one of my historical points. Then, however, perhaps you may not have known there were 2 world wars.

"USA land where Jesus has been born as G. W. Bush". Say what?

Lady - before you start calling people - supposedly your allies - scum and terrorists, take a breath.

If you don't, you might look behind and realize a) there's no one behind you and b) you shouldn't be leading.

Now, just return to your banjo-playing on the front porch - ya'll.

76

Ewen Miler,

26/07/2007 23:26:57

70.

If we had proper carriers like these in the Falklands; it wouldn't have happened, or we wouldn't have lost so many ships and people. They scrapped the ast Fleet Carrier 1978, since they couldn't see us fighting a war outside the NATO area. Four years ater we did. In the '80s they couldn't see us fighting another war in the desert -in '91 and now we are again.

The world is a dangerous place, mor unpredicatabe now than duringthe Cold War. These ships are part of our insurance policy.

Also, the UK still has a lot of engineering and technology skills. Pity the UK Government did support it more, like the French do there's.

77

Dunnie,

Canada 26/07/2007 23:30:33

Ewen - #79 - well said. Just hope the RN's future doesn't become a political football over Scottish Nationalism - said as a confirmed Unionist!

78

Dunnie,

Canada 26/07/2007 23:40:11

Re. Sandy Post #76

Is it just me or is this lady twisted?

If no one agrees with me. I am immigrating - illegally to a Caribbean or Pacific isalnd.

79

Dunnie,

Canada 26/07/2007 23:59:10

Sandy - where are you? You must be at a revival meeting or busy posting your next cheque to Ernest Angley and/or the re-elect George Dubby for a third term campaign - which is unconstitutional.

Speak to me, oh wife of Ghengis Khan.

80

Toronto Tam,

27/07/2007 03:18:53

Dunnie,
has it not occured to you that perhaps Sandy was commenting in #6and #7 with a tongue firmly planted in a cheek? I took it that way at least, even Americans are capable of using sarcasm now and again.

81

Dunnie,

Canada 27/07/2007 03:23:34

#83 - Dear Tammie - Having seen some of Sandy's previous posts; I don't think so. However, we can only live to ope otherwise.

82

Conan,

Here 27/07/2007 05:40:04

#75, Dunnie, Canada;

You are wrong to pick up on posts #6 & #7 (although you wrongly listed them as #5 & #6) as those two posts were made by the troll '.sandy usa' who has been posting as if they were 'sandy usa'. You have been had, mate. The troll's posts have been reported and about 85% have been removed so far.

However, on the point regarding who spends what on wars and war equipment .... its no good trying to use Canada's former exemplary military record of effort and contribution to that of the current situation in Canada.

While Canada does have a sensible-sized Navy, Air Force and Army, that is only so because it have enjoyed and benefitted from hiding under the skirts of the US for a long time now - certainly since the 1960's.

Canada has taken to itself the convenient and very inexpensive role of 'peace-keeper', while truly making no contribution to the advancement and preservation of the democracy you all seem to enjoy 'up there'.

When help was needed in various places around the world in advancing the foregoiung - Canada was nowhere to be found. Rather, taking the opportunity of sheltewr under the US' defense umbrella to avoid incurring the monetary and human costs of joining the fight.

As it worked out, the US managed to get the so-called Cold war sorted out for a while - but it got no help from Canada in places like the Persian Gulf, Iraq, Leabanon, the Philippines, the Balkans, Libya, Grenada, Panama, and elsewhere. And, I suppose that's OK becuase the politics of such matters are a bit complicated and cause one to choose up sides.

However, in the meantime, Canadians took the time to enjoy a vacation in (and thereby support) Cuba - that bastion of freedom in this hemisphere. TY for your support in trying to get rid of the odious Castro organised crime syndicate.

BTW - as a Canadian (if that is true), perhaps you might do the yanks the favour of staying out of their country as you seem to harour a

83

Astarte,

Giffnock 27/07/2007 09:04:25

#73 Richard. "That's shutup Mr Angry from Gravesend". MISTER,oh come on Richard..Pomodora is Italian for Golden Apple and in the feminine case.
If you need someone to help you with your application for a library card, I'll be willing.

84

Grouse,

Canada 27/07/2007 13:11:23

The carrier is going the same way as the battleship.
The money would be better spent in more 'agile' forms of naval attack.


 

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