Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Labour celebrates council by-election victories over SNP

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 05 June 2009
LABOUR enjoyed some comfort today as they celebrated two local council by-election victories over the SNP.
The vacancies in Glasgow and North Lanarkshire were created by Nationalist councillors standing down after becoming MSPs.

Scottish Labour leader Iain Gray declared it a "stunning" result for his party.

He said: "It is also a personal humiliation for Alex Salmond as two of the seats won were vacated by his SNP MSPs standing down from their dual council roles.

"Unlike their boss they gave up their dual mandate and voters replaced them with Labour."

In Glasgow's Drumchapel-Anniesland ward, where Bill Kidd had been councillor, Labour beat the SNP by 2,584 to 1,509 in first-preference votes.

In North Lanarkshire's Coatbridge North and Glenboig ward, Labour beat the SNP by 1,529 to 1,254 in first preferences after John Wilson stepped down.

In both cases, counting went to subsequent rounds under the Single Transferable Vote (STV) system.

The SNP said the Coatbridge result saw a 5% swing from Labour to the Nationalists, and said the final result came only after a disputed recount, with Labour winning by a margin of 63 votes.

They said the Glasgow result saw a swing of nearly 10% from Labour to the SNP, saying: "The SNP vote has increased substantially while Labour's is collapsing."

The SNP also claimed the two results combined represented a 7.8% swing from Labour to the Nationalists compared with 2007.

Page 1 of 1

 
1

Marian,

05/06/2009 09:50:30
So New Labour appear to have won back two of their formerly held seats where SNP councillors had moved on to become MSP's.

However in Coatbridge there was a 5% swing to SNP and in Drumchapel a 10% swing to SNP.

So the very bad news for Iain Gray is that the SNP are still improving on their historic 2007 result despite losing two very marginal council seats.
2

Vivas,

Edinburgh 05/06/2009 09:54:32
For those of use who have been voting for independence for 30 years, these kind of council results are salutory reminders of the battle that has still to be won. We can have no doubt that when Labour shortly and inevitably retreats from Westminster, it will still be sustained in areas such as West Central Scotland.

I expect to be heartened by the Euro results and the SNP share of the vote. But theres still a lot of work to be done on the ground in central Scotland, where red balloons on sticks still get the vote. Complacency has always been one of the enemies of nationalist politics here, that somehow inevitably things will flow the SNP's way when one or other of the major UK parties trips up.

Last night shows that the SNP must NEVER expect to win by default, and it STILL has to kill-off the Labour party in its tribally loyal havens.

I expect the SNP to continue its progress, but they will have to do better still in order to win out Scotland-wide. Theres a window of opportunity in the next few years to do just that, but its going to be blood, swaeat and tears along the way.
3

Dante,

inferno 05/06/2009 10:00:24
has anyone else noticed that the Hootsman ALWAYS prints a picture of Ian Gray when he is quoted in a story?
Me thinks this is because no one knows who he is and is a not so subtle attempt at raising his profile!
4

Dante,

Inferno 05/06/2009 10:02:53
#2 incredible that after all that has happened with New Labour the last few weeks that they can still win council seats.
Monkeys in red rosettes would win there, as my old dad used to say.....
5

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 05/06/2009 10:04:17
Viva:If you are going to paraphrase WLSC get it right. I am amazed by the Labour loyalty in some parts of Scotland but that however is the prerogative of the electorate and will not be changed by your pejorative description of their voting habits.
6

Vivas,

Edinburgh 05/06/2009 10:05:52
Yup, "Habits".

You said it.
7

Sedov,

05/06/2009 10:07:29
As I have said many times on these posts, in politics, like life, there are many twists and turns and nothing is certain although Labour will get a hammering at the euro elections.

Just look at the events over the past 18 months with the world banks, the collapse of the celtic tigers, the exposure of MP's expenses and the rise of the BNP and you get the picture.

There will be many more events which will change peoples perception about what king of society we want for our ourselves and children. There will be no return to the excess greed and selfishness of the past - and we could very well turn back to the left despite Ian Grey and Alex Salmond, two sides of the same coin.

Forward to socialism!
8

Dante,

Inferno 05/06/2009 10:10:51
#7 the rise of the BNP...& forward to socialism...???

great! Weimars republic all over again
9

Herry Oaksters,

05/06/2009 10:21:21
If Gray wants to see what real humiliation is like he just has to watch his own pathetic performances at FMQ,s.
Mr 7% is the laughing stock of the Scottish parliament a usless London labour puppet just like wee Joke Mcnumpty.
10

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/06/2009 10:22:36
Sedov,
Strangely I agree with much of your post.
Obviously the SNP will argue that all the people who voted for them have been convinced that independence is the best way forward. The fact of the matter is a lot more complicated as these two Scottish local election results testify. Having said that, the local elections in England and the UK-wide Euro elections will undoubtedly deliver a bloody nose to The Labour Party.
However, as Vivas cautions on post #2 the SNP need to guard against complacency. I would add that the SNP really need to take a good look at their attitude towards the electors in the Labour heartlands. Their dismissive contempt for those voters who reject their policies in favour of the Labour Party's is one of the uglier aspects of the nationalist movement. If the SNP are to progress it is imperative that they lose this nasty and snobbish elitism.
11

colin, crombie,

dunfermline 05/06/2009 10:26:34
strange that Labour and the Scotsman should describe these seats as 'Labour Gains'. Although physically on each Council Labour have taken the extra seats, this should be of no surprise as Labour were well ahead in First Preference votes in both at the Council Election in 97. In fact in the Glasgow ward Labour took 3 seats to the SNP's 1. It was almost inevitable that Labour would win when the SNP vacated its 1 seat, which tells me that something needs done about our STV multi member system as opposition parties within a ward will end up not being represented should a by election occur. This could even change political control of Councils (like in Dundee where the SNP benefitted from this anomaly). I think our politicians should consider this anomaly. That said, there was a large swing TO the SNP in both seats, so for Grey to claim some sort of victory is deluding.
12

Marga,

Edinburgh 05/06/2009 10:27:50
Sad but true, their very success will work against the SNP in many parts of Scotland. There's a chip on shoulder mindset and an inverse snobbery that's going to reject any move to better yourself and be hostile to others with aspirations.
Grey may be delighted to be gifted votes from folk with this kind of syndrome ("one of our own is being attacked") but there isn't much hope for a sectarian Scotland that bites off its nose to spite its face like this. What's the answer?
13

Queen D,

05/06/2009 10:29:49
Any postal votes??
Just thought I'd ask!
14

Mrs Broon,

Scotland 05/06/2009 10:33:19
Had to rush over here as the Torygraph had the results of the byelection for the Scottish Parliament. My one worry about this is that when the underclass start worrying about their benefits, they vote Labour. The Working Man in Scotland may one day come to realize that they have lost more under Labour than they have ever lost under the other side, and believe me I have no truck with them either.
15

Herry Oaksters,

05/06/2009 10:34:39
13.
There was at least 63.
16

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/06/2009 10:41:30
From the Guardian:

"It quickly became clear that Labour was in for a bad night. The Liberal Democrats and Tories took seats from them and the Greens beat them into fourth place in some places".

Yeeeeeha!!
17

Vivas,

Edinburgh 05/06/2009 10:46:07
Scottish Labour has fostered and maintains the client state... tens of thousands of Scottish people on benefits and without jobs and without hope. Labours only weapon is to threaten that these will be removed by other parties ... so "vote Labour".

SLAB is a sick party, which survives by maintaining deprivation in its heartlands. How to break out of that cycle ? If I had the answer I wouldn't be on here gabbling about it...
18

Tris,

05/06/2009 10:47:43
~3 Who is that wee bloke in the picture. I'm sure I've seen him somewhere before. Maybe he was in films a long time ago when he was young.... yep thats it, with a rabbit wasn't it?

19

Sedov,

05/06/2009 10:59:54
#8 Dante - It is obvious you have not got the point of what I was saying - that people are looking for alternatives and those alternatives can sometimes, as at present move to the right, but then just as quickly, move to the left- a bit like a Scottish jig.

We know that the BNP are at present having some success with their blaming migrant workers and the EU on the demise of British capitalism with sinister nationalist fear mongering undertones(not unlike the SNP in some respects) but their success, as in the past in the UK, without sounding complacent will be short lived and this is not the 1930', thankfully.

#10 Grahamski - yes - but this post is far to objective and scientific for the sloganising empty rhetoric of the NATS.

20

Mrs Broon,

Scotland 05/06/2009 11:04:57
#17, You put it so succinctly.
21

,

05/06/2009 11:05:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 05/06/2009 11:17:31
Byelections in multi seat wards are intrinsically unfair as they favour the lead party. The whole purpose of the multi seat wards was to introduce proportional representation. To replace ex councillors by FPTP distorts this.

In Aberdeen when the Tory councillor died the SNP won even though the political make-up of the seat was unchanged. I have highlighted this before. The only way to conduct a byelection is if all the representatives of the ward are also re-elected at the same time using the main system.

Had it been one of the labour councillors who had retired or died there would have been no change. Labour cannot take comfort from winning a seat where they were already the principal party.

23

brownlie,

05/06/2009 11:19:47
10 Grahamski,

I would agree with most of what you say with one caveat. The SNP do not have a snobbish, patronising attitude to voters irrespective of their location. Yes, you may hear some of the more irrational supporters demeaning Labour supporters but their views do not represent the Scottish Nationalist Party's attitude nor is it reflected in their policies.
24

Sedov,

05/06/2009 11:24:37
#23 browlie - Policies? Oh.. do you mean that one about having a referendum over independence?
25

brownlie,

05/06/2009 11:25:57
19 Sedov

By "sloganising empty rhetoric of the NATS" do you mean constant references to "Brigadoon, short-bread, Mel Gibson, Freedum, kilts, haggis,Granny's Hieland hame etc etc" ad nauseam. You must realise that this is a major weapon for independence and, therefore, we use it constantly. Sadly not enough of us fill the threads with that potent persuasiveness.
26

nostress,

grangemouth 05/06/2009 11:27:19
Scottish Labour leader Iain Gray declared it a "stunning" result for his party.

Eh? Labour win in Drumchapel and Coatbridge and it's a stunning result??? Is Ian on the happy pills or what???
27

brownlie,

05/06/2009 11:29:34
24 Sedov

Yes, it's certainly a more achievable aspiration than a socialist society.

What form is your brand of "socialism", what are the policies and which party is going to deliver them?
28

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 05/06/2009 11:29:43
regarding the above the byelections are of course not by FPTP but STV, but the effect will be largely the same when only one councillor is being elected and not the entire ward.
29

Sedov,

05/06/2009 11:36:07
#25 Brownlie - I love Brigadoon, i love shortbread, I love Braveheart, I love haggis, I often visit Dornoch, I have three kilts and a I regularly go Scottish country Dancing and can recite Burns ----- but I am NOT a nationalist - Just a sensible Scot ( in my opinion) who happens to be an internationalist.
30

brownlie,

05/06/2009 11:39:52
29 Sedov

How strange, I don't like any of them. So you believe in the internationality of nations but not in your own nation's ability to stand on it's own two feet?
31

Brianwci,

05/06/2009 11:47:17
#2 vivas: "For those of use who have been voting for independence for 30 years, these kind of council results are salutary reminders of the battle that has still to be won."

Absolutely Vivas. There is still a massive block of London Labour support out there which is barely touched by all this new information swirling around about the the party which they have supported for generations.

We have the facts on our side, but we MUST get them out and about in the housing estates where they can be discussed and digested.

Having said that there could well have been a bit of 'spread betting' in voting terms with the SNP getting the Euro vote and London Labour getting the local vote.

32

Gorach,

O'Donnells 05/06/2009 11:48:08
26
Aye the nonsense that politicians spout and newspapers print..
33

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/06/2009 11:51:07
30
Brownlie,
See that chip on your shoulder?
34

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/06/2009 11:51:32
#26 nostress

Aye, stunning in that even The Gray Man can't quite believe that there are still so many Pavlovian Neanderthals out there that just can't stop voting Labour. 'Coz ah've aye been and ma da would turn in his grave if ah didnae'
35

Sedov,

05/06/2009 11:52:15
#27 Brownlie - Yes I too believe in a referendum which is more achievable than the difficult task of convincing the masses that socialism can and will bring about a better world - which party takes on the task of acheiving this is in the hands of those who want it most and whether it is through a rejuninated part of Labour and the trade unions or by some popular alternative, I do not know but as we have learned in the past, revolutions can happen quickly and peacefully.

However, the referendum itself may not give you the result that you are looking for which is why the SNP continue to dilly dally over their promise.

The longer the SNP dither on this the more that the objective economic and social factors will work against them and that includes the Tories coming to power and Ian Grey finally getting his act together.

Bring it on.
36

IainGlasgow,

05/06/2009 12:00:54
Labour only won these seats in their strongest heartlands anywhere in the UK and only due to a flaw in the STV vote system whereby, assuming everyone voted as they had done in 2007, the seats would have gone to the party already having more seats than any other on those councils. The only way to eliminate this flaw would be to adopt the Holyrood system whereby a list MSP who vacates their seat is replaced by one from the same party. Nevertheless a swing to the SNP was shown in both cases.

Perhaps Iain Gray should have waited for the European results before hailing this as a great victory. First Ministers Questions will certainly be interesting next week.
37

,

05/06/2009 12:02:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

brownlie,

05/06/2009 12:31:49
33 Grahamski

You are absolutely correct if by "chip on the shoulder" you mean having nothing but contempt for the present and previous UK governments who promised much but achieved little. I could supply you with a list of reasons for this contempt if you wish.

However, if you consider that having a "chip on the shoulder" means being afraid to stand up and be counted then you could not be more wrong.
39

Willie Mor,

05/06/2009 12:34:07
Oh well if Iain Gray is so emboldened by these two council by-election results maybe he will now have the courage to call for a Scottish general election.

Stunning result is Iain when there are swings of +10% and +5% to the SNP in the so called Labour heartlands.

C'mon man, stand up and don't be grey, call an election! The people would welcome a chance at having a say!
40

Tartan Viking,

05/06/2009 12:34:21
Dear dear dear. This demonstrates that there are still numpties in our society who are blinkered enough to vote for what their 'mammy and daddy' voted for.

Pathetic really.
41

Vivas,

Edinburgh 05/06/2009 12:36:29
The SNP are doing well. But they're not they're yet. There are months to go before a UK election ... and 2 years before a Holyrood election. I'm glad to say that the SNP is a more mature and effective political operation than it's ever been in my lifetime. They've shown they can learn and theres time yet to address how the SNP might make the required inroads into tribal Labour areas. Waiting for the inevitable Conservative UK victory isn't enough on it's own.
42

The Master,

05/06/2009 12:36:51
I bet many Nats are increasingly doubtful whether their movement has the ability to conquer traditional Labour heartlands in the long term.

Despite the ability of Nationalism to appear as all things to all men, it's becoming increasingly apparent that the Nats' philosophy will always strike most resonance in their formerly Tory heartland seats of the North East.

What's more, Labour looks like moving to the left if they suffer a resounding defeat at the next General Election, so the Nats may find themselves being edged out of the left of centre ground (assuming, of course, that this is where the leadership, including as it does the likes of Mather, is really trying to position the party).
43

,

05/06/2009 12:45:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
44

Yeah1,

05/06/2009 12:49:39
#39

"Oh well if Iain Gray is so emboldened by these two council by-election results maybe he will now have the courage to call for a Scottish general election."

You appear to be confused. Iain Gray is not the First Minister, he doesn't have the power to call a Scottish election.

If you are refering to a UK General Election, then Iain Gray is not the Prime Minister, so again he doesn't have the power to call one.
45

Stephen Maturin,

, HMS Surprise, all at sea , 05/06/2009 12:51:33
#37 Vauxhall Nova, I think you will find that it is the conmen in the NuLiebore Sleaze and Corruption Party,(North British-shire Branch), who are descending, cetainly in popularity.

#42 The Master, (of what, God alone knows, not debate that's for sure), Pro independence Scots don't appear to have to do all the work to bring about independence, NuLiebore are doing a hell of a job recruiting voters for them with their utter inability to resonate with the voters, come up with decent policies or keep their snouts out of the trough long enough to give a sh-t for anyone but themselves. True, the SNP can't afford to be complacent, not in the face of so much ingrained Labour voting but it sure helps having a totally incompetent and unlikeable opposition.

Saor Alba, Erin agus Catalonia!
46

Yeah1,

05/06/2009 12:55:11
#41

"I'm glad to say that the SNP is a more mature and effective political operation than it's ever been in my lifetime. They've shown they can learn and theres time yet to address how the SNP might make the required inroads into tribal Labour areas."

Vivas, you appear to have a sensible and mature perspective on how to make inroads into 'tribal' labour areas.

Perhaps you should advise your fellow SNP supporters, like 'Tartan Viking' and 'Draco Was a Wimp' to refrain from refering to people from such areas as 'pavlovian neanderthals' or 'blinkered numpties', just because they vote labour?

Surely such derogatory insults are not likely to entice them to switch from labour to the SNP? Wouldn't it be more advisable to try to give them reasons why they should vote SNP, rather than insulting them for not doing so?
47

Yeah1,

05/06/2009 12:57:00
#47

"Your talking tripe, David Cameron, Alex Salmond , Nick Clegg and Daffodil woungleclanbellypoing of Plaid Cymru have all called for an election and they are not in power in Westminster."

You clearly didn't read my post properly or the post I was refering to.

The above-named may well have called FOR a general election but they do not have the POWER to CALL one.

Do you understand the difference?
48

Yeah1,

05/06/2009 13:03:06
#51

"I know exactly what you meant and it was tripe"

Er you clearly don't understand how politics works.

Are you saying it is 'tripe' that Iain Gray cannot call a general election?

Do you think the leader of the opposition in the Scottish Parliament has the power to call a UK general election?

Weird....
49

Media at One,

05/06/2009 13:03:43
Politics delivers some unbelievable results.
These results prove that many voters can see beyond the faces that front the parties. The party is bigger than the people within it.
I suspect Scotland will be part of the United Kingdom for at least another 20 years, I cannot see independence coming sooner or at all for that matter. Labour is a massive party and whilst they may be taking a battering now, they will definately be back. It takes one week to change things about. If they got Brown out now and replaced him with a squeeky clean peoples person who can talk the talk they will attract many of their voters back because it is all about perception.
50

Yeah1,

05/06/2009 13:11:43
#56

"Nope sorry your moving the goal posts again, why do you always do that"

How exactly am I 'moving the goal posts'?

In my original post I stated that Iain Gray does not have the power to call a UK general election.

You called this 'tripe'.

Now do you really think Gray has such a power? Or did you mis-read my post and think I meant he doesn't have the power to call FOR an election?

If the former I am afraid you are deluded, if the latter I expect an apology for calling my correct point 'tripe'.
51

Grahamski,

05/06/2009 13:13:44
38
Brownlie,
The chip I was referring to was the spurious argument put by nationalists which suggests Scots who support the union do so because they somehow think Scotland is too weak to be independent.
So, to avoid any future confusion; I consider the Scottish people to be perfectly capable of making decisions for themselves. I must say that your claim that the Scottish people's preference of staying in the union isn't a case of not being able to stand on our own two feet but a perfectly reasonable view that it is in our own best interests to stay in the union.
52

BIG EYE,

Paisley 05/06/2009 13:14:25
Before Labour get over excited I think you will find that these wards returned two or more Labour councillors to the one SNP when PR was used.

It is no surprise then that when the by election effectively reverts to first past the post Labour come out on top.

Of course celebrations today are tears tomorrow as it is absolutely certain that when the next local elections take place using PR these seats and maybe even more will revert to the SNP.

We will see how well Labour are doing on Sunday night. Cant wait!
53

Vivas,

Edinburgh 05/06/2009 13:16:55
Its simple enough. If Labour move people out of poverty and state dependence, then they reward Labour by starting to look around for other political parties that address their new aspirations. Labour can't lose their heartland electorate in that way. So it's far better - in fact essential - for Labour to keep tens of thousands of Scots with their noses to the grimy pavement and a grim attitude of day to day survival in an unfriendly unhelpful world. Don't give them aspirations. Give them fear about today and fear about tomorrow, and tell them that only Labour will look after them by keeping their benefit cheques coming in.

Its contemptible and disgusting but thats how it is. Thats what Scottish Labour perpetuates. The evidence is there in the sink estates of Edinburgh, Glasgow and Dundee. Labour feeds their electorate a lifetime of marginal existence - and is rewarded in spades at the ballot box. I don't have the answer. But the SNP needs to come up with more than just the imminent return of UK Tory rule to Scotland. And theres not an endless time in which to do that. There is a tremendous window of opportunity for the SNP in the next 2 to 4 years that may not necessarily be there in 5 or 10 years time. They need to take it soon - and as welcome as the % SNP swings were last night ... if 4 or 5 out of 10 people keep voting Labour in these tribal areas, then the SNP might not clear the last hurdle it needs to jump, in order to make independence the first choice of the majority of all Scots.
54

Yeah1,

05/06/2009 13:19:44
#64

"You moving the goal posts again, anyone can call for an election."

Ahh okay you mis-read my original post. No problem, everyone makes mistakes.

Of course 'anyone call FOR an election' - my post, which you mis-read, stated that Iain Gray does not have the power to actually CALL a general election - as in announce that parliament is dissolving and there will be a general election.

Do you understand now?
55

Miss H,

05/06/2009 13:22:41
10 The truth is somewhat more prosaic. Elections are only in part about attitudes and principles, the other part is purely logistical - who can get more of their vote out.

In retrospect it was a tactical error for these two MSPs to stand down at this time, as the ensuing by-elections coincided with a national election which the SNP wanted to win. That meant that the bulk of resources went to support the euro election campaign rather than the by-elections.

Labour on the other hand were clearly resigned to losing the euros. Other than an automated telephone campaign (featuring Vera Duckworth from Coronation Street - you couldn't make it up) they did very little. Labour activists were noticeable by their absence yesterday. That meant that they were able to put more into the by-elections than the SNP could and is why they won.

Come Sunday we will find out if the SNP has succeeded in winning the euro election - a rather more significant indicator than a couple of local government by-elections.
56

Astonished,

05/06/2009 13:22:51
I am surprised that Elmer grey has time to comment on this 'fantastic' result for labour. I thought he would be calling for Jack straw's resignation.

Luckily for labour no one in the hootsmon or the bbc will question elmer on his hypocrisy.





Lack of education and information explains labour's victory. The Scottish government is addressing these issues and time will tell.
57

Yeah1,

05/06/2009 13:23:05
#64

"You post endless tripe 24/7 and don't have a life."

Rather rich of you to accuse others of posting 'endless tripe' - you have already posted 13 times on this article in the space of about half an hour (more than double my 5).

As for 'tripe' your belief that Iain Gray has the power to call a general election takes some beating...
58

Yeah1,

05/06/2009 13:25:33
#72

"Your wrong again, don't you understand anyone can call for an election."

You are clearly mentally retarded so I will try to explain in as simple a manner as possible.

As I have already said, yes anyone can call FOR an election.

But, the point I was making, which you called 'tripe', was that not anyone can actually CALL a general election - you for example cannot decide that you want a general election and call one.
59

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/06/2009 13:27:29
70
Miss H
To try and read any significance into any election results is futile just now - the whole body politic is quite frankly bonkers just now. Labour will take a doing in the Euros and the English local elections, granted.
The political landscape will have changed beyond recognition by the time the general election comes along. To try and extrapolate anything from either these two by-elections or any of the others is quite frankly daft.
60

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 13:29:59
I am worried about the low turnout in the european vote as I believe that we need a strong turnout for strong democracy.

Even those folk who were scunnered could have still voted but spoilt there paper by writing on it why they refused to vote for a specific party.

When I voted last night at 9pm in Dunfermline the ladies there said that the turnout was 16% for that polling station.

Ian Gray well want can you say about him, his palms will be getting sweaty as HQ is in turmoil. What does he do for orders?
61

brownlie,

05/06/2009 13:30:43
62 Grahamski,

I take it then that you were not referring to a chip on my shoulder but rather a chip that might be on some, but certainly not all, nationalist supporters' shoulders? I don't pretend to speak for all nationalists and when I put a point of view across it is mine and mine alone. If it coincides with some-one else's view-point that is fine but if it does not then that is fine by me as well.

Furthermore, I hate to see one person's opinion being portrayed as typical of a one particular side whether nationalist or unionist. For example, see the poster at 55 claiming on two occasions "so we are told by all the Nats on this forum" when he should be aware that what he means is "one, or some of the nats on this forum".
62

Gary McL,

Edinburgh 05/06/2009 13:31:01
These results can be taken as Labour 'gains' - but also there were 5% and 10% swings to the SNP. Strange but true! - and thanks entirely to a voting system which for by-elections in multi-member wards urgently needs looked at and reconsidered. I hope this issue is now to the fore.

However I do also think that the public are very unhappy (perhaps unfairly, sometimes) about individuals having dual roles as MPs / MSPs / councillors. I have a hunch that any study of by-elections caused by anything vaguely to do with this issue will show a backlash against the 'two jobs' politician perception. And especially so now.

The exception to this is in the case of Alex Salmond as First Minister where I think it's a Good Thing that he is also an MP and can take part in key Commons votes, etc.; his approach to his salary has been OK in my eyes (only personally benefitting from one salary). Maybe the Scottish FM should always be an MP, too, to have such Commons access?

Anyway, the basic figures are that there was a swing to the SNP in very solid Labour areas - and up to 10%. The SNP must keep on keeping on doing their best for such areas as it a case of dogged, steady progress and can only be advanced if the people see real differences locally.
63

karin Mac,

05/06/2009 13:34:33
62 so you will be looking forward to the referendum on independence to prove you right will you?
64

Geoff,

sa 05/06/2009 13:41:13
Nice to read some sensible comment for a change without the usual namecalling.
2 Vivas- the SNP will need to expend "blood,sweat and tears" all along the way in their struggle for independence.
I am a Unionist Vivas but as i have said in the past Alex Salmond is a politician to admire(in the main) and the desire by some for Scottish independence is understandable. Howeverthe reality that the Nationalist movement must face is that it might not be achievable with all the BS and T in the world! The simple truth is that the majority of Scots might just not ever want it-no reflection on the hardwork,sincerity and nobility of your cause. Nationalist movements have waxed and waned in for example Quebec and the Basque lands. It is not only Unionism that is your foe but also perhaps simple apathy. in addition, some nationalists on these forums speak of Unionism as though it is some kind of dreadful disease! Nationalists should perhaps consider the fact that maybe there is a good case to be made for the union and that the Unionist cause is an equally valid one!
76 grahamski-spot on! In the current climate it is impossible to sift the protest vote or lack therof from the mix!
65

peter1958,

Glasgow 05/06/2009 13:41:52
Does anyone know how Bishopbriggs South has been called?

Here's hoping Alan Moir get's in and makes it 3 out of 3.

Frankly, I would have thought that our glorious Labour Party would have taken a severe hiding and I am delighted with the results in these elections.

I would take a drink from the minibar to celegrate - if only I could find someonelse to buy it.
66

Sgian Achlais,

05/06/2009 13:46:30
65Vivas, Edinburgh 05/06/2009 13:16:55
Its simple enough. If Labour move people out of poverty and state dependence, then they reward Labour by starting to look around for other political parties that address their new aspirations. Labour can't lose their heartland electorate in that way. So it's far better - in fact essential - for Labour to keep tens of thousands of Scots with their noses to the grimy pavement and a grim attitude of day to day survival in an unfriendly unhelpful world. Don't give them aspirations. Give them fear about today and fear about tomorrow, and tell them that only Labour will look after them by keeping their benefit cheques coming in.

Its contemptible and disgusting but thats how it is. Thats what Scottish Labour perpetuates. The evidence is there in the sink estates of Edinburgh, Glasgow and Dundee. Labour feeds their electorate a lifetime of marginal existence - and is rewarded in spades at the ballot box. I don't have the answer

============================

Vivas,

How true and also how sad. The only people Labour ever lifted out of poverty were their own MP's and Councillors.

Keep them down and blame the rich.

Much of Glasgow is a sink estate wasteland that many ordinary people would not to drive through let alone live in.

Labour keep the prospects, opportunities and education levels low the result being crime ridden sink estates.

Glasgow was once the 2nd City of the worlds biggest empire.

There is nothing wrong with the people, they just need leadership and good governance.

They need rid of Labour/Trade Unions/Sectarianism and corrupt councillors and they would be great again.

67

Astonished,

05/06/2009 13:47:42
peter @86 - Do padded cells have minibars ?


It is a pity you don't get out more, glorious labour indeed.
68

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 05/06/2009 13:50:51
I just can't believe there are that many cretins left in Scotland that would still vote Labour.

Labour have swindled Scotland, spend our hard earned cash like it was water on their corrupt pet projects, and they treat voters with contempt but still the Scottish 'Aye been' voters can't bring themselves to vote for anyone else.

The lions have long left Scotland ... they have left only sheep behind ...


69

Yeah1,

05/06/2009 13:52:07
#78

"Your wrong again, anyone can call for an election, am i getting through you weird one. ?"

Okay there is no point arguing with you. You are either deliberately, or more likely, unable, to understand what I am explaining to you.

"Ah ha so your trying to say i made a mistake or even worse admit i was wrong and you were right ?"

Yes you did make a mistake, I was right, and it is quite clear to anyone reading our respective posts.

Unless you still actually believe Iain Gray has the power to actually CALL a general election, rather than simply call FOR one?
70

Highland Mist,

05/06/2009 13:55:06
So it's official - people from Coatbridge and Drumchapel are needing certified.

If Labour wins the next election would the last person to leave please switch the light off - oh wait a minute, the Neanderthal cavemen in Coatbridge will keep the country going when they invent fire.
71

brownlie,

05/06/2009 13:55:31
74 Yeah 1

Sorry to harp back to this but in your original statement at 44 you say "You appear to be confused. Iain Gray is not the First Minister, he doesn't have the power to call a Scottish election". This gives the impression that the First Minister CAN call a Scottish election. I think you'll find that this is not the case.

However, my understanding is that if Iain Gray called for an election in the Scottish Parliament and enough MSPs voted for it then there would be an election. In the present circumstances I feel Gray would be foolish to do so and the nats would welcome it.
72

peter1958,

05/06/2009 13:56:16
Never mind any of your natcrap #88 - does anyone know who has taken Bishopbriggs South and with it control of East Dunbarts?

73

Miss H,

05/06/2009 13:57:51
76 The general election will be coming in October.

But to deal with your other point - whether you can read any significance into election results. I think you can and again this comes down to logistics.

Why did Labour usually beat the SNP in the past? It came down to 2 things - their argument (or policies/vision/whatever you want to call it) but just as importantly because they had more identified supporters and were able to get them out to vote on the day.

That situation has changed dramatically over the past few years. The SNP now has a much more effective election machine than Labour both in terms of message and the organisational capacity to win elections. So the landscape has changed yes but not perhaps in the way you would like.
74

peter1958,

Glasgow 05/06/2009 14:01:03
Dream on Miss H!
What happened to that organisational brilliance when Glenrothes came up for grabs?
To then lose two - hopefully three - council byes at a time when Labour is polling 17% nationally (like the LibDems on a bad week) sort of suggests that there is very little organisational brilliance going about.

75

Miss H,

05/06/2009 14:01:20
90 yeah1 if you go back and read your post at 44 I think you will realise something.

I will copy it for you to save time.

Yeah1,05/06/2009 12:49:39
#39

"Oh well if Iain Gray is so emboldened by these two council by-election results maybe he will now have the courage to call for a Scottish general election."

You appear to be confused. Iain Gray is not the First Minister, he doesn't have the power to call a Scottish election.

If you are refering to a UK General Election, then Iain Gray is not the Prime Minister, so again he doesn't have the power to call one.

---------------

I think the key phrase there is 'call for' rather than simply 'call'.

What a lot of time you have wasted on this.
76

Highland Mist,

05/06/2009 14:02:49
Maybe we're better not getting independence - with half wits like we have in Scotland who have the vote God only knows what sort of cretinous & omnipotent dictator we'd end up with ....................
77

David55,

05/06/2009 14:02:56
Scottish Labour leader Iain Gray declared it a "stunning" result for his party.

Stunning result? 2 local councillers. In the Labour heartlands of the West of Scotland. What a berk that man is. I'm glad he is the Labour Leader. It shows what kind of party they are, that this clown is their leader.
78

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

05/06/2009 14:06:44
Can't be bothered reading this whole thread, but is it not the case that there is a flaw in the STV system used which means that when a councillor resigns as in these cases, the party that tends to be top of the first choice count tends to pick up the seat, as there is only one seat available and not a number allocated on a PR basis? I think the SNP benefitted from a similar thing elsewhere (Dundee?). Far from being a stunning Labour victory, as Gray claims, the swing to the SNP suggests that in fact there is every indication of a further collapse in Labour support.

It does appear though that perhaps some sort of list system might be needed to remove this anomaly.
79

Miss H,

05/06/2009 14:06:47
95 It was very evident.

Don't get me wrong - I am not saying that the SNP is going to win in every single constituency in the general election.

That would be silly.

What I am saying is that the party now has the capacity to win the majority of seats and Labour does not.

The fact that Labour now sets such store on by-election victories is kind of proof of that. The SNP used to do that when we were Scotland's second party - we would always claim a by-election victory as evidence that the tide was turning in our favour even when it patently wasn't. And Labour used to pat us on the back and say run away and play with your by-election victory while you can because we will be taking this seat back when playtime is over.

Now the roles have been reversed.

Interesting isn't it?
80

IainGlasgow,

05/06/2009 14:07:20
#42

Maybe so but there is no absolute correlation between support for Labour and opposition to independence.

A completely fractured Labour party will not have its members under the tight control of party whips. Under such circumstances it would be far more difficult for Labour to stop the SNP Government holding an independence referendum. The SNP only need to win a referendum once for independence to happen. The unionists have to keep winning or preventing a referendum from taking place. A Tory government with a sizable majority and making sweeping public spending cuts will swing things in the SNP's favour.

A fractured Labour party that has completely lost its power grip in Westminster and unable to get it back for perhaps a generation is what is likely to exist a year from now. If it does drift to the left some of its members may want to fill the socialist-nationalist void left by the splitting and implosion of the SSP/Solidarity, if nothing else creating more division in the party. This could create a situation of two fault lines in the party - constitutional change and whre it lies on the political (left to right) spectrum
81

peter1958,

Glasgow 05/06/2009 14:08:25
Well Dave, could I just point out Glasgow East was in those self same heartlands. The noise then from SNP was that it was going to sweep all before it but somehow that has not been translated into wins at the diddy elections to control the unimportant things like schools, social services and housing. Maybe the SNP should spend some time in reflection on that very point.
82

Yeah1,

05/06/2009 14:09:07
#96

"yeah1 if you go back and read your post at 44 I think you will realise something."

In his original post at #39 'Willie Mor' states:

"C'mon man, stand up and don't be grey, call an election! The people would welcome a chance at having a say!"

This gives the impression that Gray has the power to call an election - something which I explained he does not have. You are right, I should have used the above quote from #39 rather than the one I used with 'call for' an election.

Anyway the point is mute - in my post I stated that Gray does not have the power to CALL a UK general election, which 'Berero' embarassingly called 'tripe' - so the subsequent posts have been regarding that and Berero's apparent utter lack of knowledge regarding who has, or does not have, the power to call a general election.
83

eamon,

05/06/2009 14:09:16
#2 Vivas and 10 grahamski

Very well thought out posts. Grahamski, is there anything the SNP could do to win you over. I am all for a union of some kind within these islands, but I think the one we have at the moment has past its sell by date. We all need a period of cooling off, and I think a spell away from each other, sort of a trial seperation if you like, before we renegociated a fresh agreement that suited us all would be best. Interested to hear what you think.
84

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/06/2009 14:10:43
94
Miss H
The SNP have undoubtedly honed their election machine over the last ten years and have managed to present a more sophisticated sanitised version of their message. I agree that the ability to identify then mobilise their respective supports will be the key battleground in the forthcoming general election.
The over-confidence of the SNP in their organisational skills will suit the Labour Party just fine, I would imagine....
85

David55,

05/06/2009 14:11:56
Voldemort,Edinburgh 05/06/2009 13:50:51
I just can't believe there are that many cretins left in Scotland that would still vote Labour.
--------------------------------------------------

Come, come! Surely you occasionally take a stroll through the streets of Edinburgh. I can assure you that Drumchapel and Coatbridge will be worse, by quite some way. Cretins galore!

I believe in independence, but i've no idea what we would do with the huge army of unemployable cretins that are kicking about.
86

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 14:16:01
Ian Gray has no narrative to tell, the comic leaflets I got throught the postbox said vote for us because Gordon is a great guy and the SNP will sell your children into slavery yada yada!

Nothing about vote for us to represent Scottish farmers and fisherman not a jote.

For him to grab the comfort blanket over these by-elections tells it's own story.

Brown will just be the figurehead, his power is held by the cabinet and especially Mandelson.

The Prince of Darkness has full control.

Are the projections for Labours % vote correct?? Somewhere in the teens.
87

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 14:16:50
Bob Ainsworth is the new Defence Secretary oh sweet Lord.
88

David55,

05/06/2009 14:17:32
peter1958,Glasgow 05/06/2009 14:08:25
Well Dave, could I just point out Glasgow East was in those self same heartlands. The noise then from SNP was that it was going to sweep all before it but somehow that has not been translated into wins at the diddy elections to control the unimportant things like schools, social services and housing. Maybe the SNP should spend some time in reflection on that very point.
-----------------------------------------------------

Aye, very good Pete. Highlighting just how bad Labour are that the electorate, in a diehard Labour seat like Glasgow East, turfed them out. If Labour start losing seats on a regular basis in the West, then they should give up.
89

peter1958,

Glasgow 05/06/2009 14:17:48
Well Dave55, are you Christine Graham in disguise?
I think we shold be told.
90

Yeah1,

05/06/2009 14:18:03
Its almost embarassing the bitterness, spite and hatred some SNP supporters have for those who don't vote for their party.

So far today people like 'Highland Mist' and 'Tartan Viking' have used terms such as 'half wits', 'numpties' and 'neanderthals' to describe those who don't vote SNP.

Surely if you want the SNP to do well, rather than insulting and critising non-SNP voters you should be trying to find out why they don't vote SNP, and trying to put across reasons why they should vote for them?

Calling them 'half wits' is hardly likely to encourage them to change their voting preference is it?
91

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/06/2009 14:18:14
104
Eamon,
The very concept of nationalism is anathema to me. I reject fundamentally the assumptions made by the SNP and will oppose them to my dying breath.
If the Scottish people however decide the best way forward for them is to become independent then I'd gladly accept the majority decision and work within an independent Scotland.
As regards the current constitutional settlement of the UK the most pressing matter in my opinion is to create a devolved parliament for England.
92

Stephen Maturin,

05/06/2009 14:18:46
#103 Yeah1 "Anyway the point is mute" I wish you were mute! The word is 'moot' ya eejit.
93

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 14:22:04
105 Pardon! "more sophisticated sanitised version of their message" explain please.
94

Yeah1,

05/06/2009 14:23:04
#101

"there is no absolute correlation between support for Labour and opposition to independence."

Quite correct 'IainGlasgow'.

It is also equally true that there is no absolute correlation between support for the SNP and support for independence, as a recent poll proves (43% support for the SNP, but only 33% support for independence).

It is obvious that not every labour voter will oppose independence and not every SNP voter will support it.

It appears that a lot of current SNP voters like their policies and prefer them to labour, but do not necessarily support independence. The challenge for the SNP is to get such people to support them AND independence.
95

peter1958,

Glasgow 05/06/2009 14:31:46
Yeah 1 must be new to the boards. Some basic nat arguments: -
1. Anyone who does not vote SNP is anti-Scottish
2. Anyone who does not vote SNP is suffering from something called the Scottish cringe
3. Anyone who does not vote SNP cannot, therefore, be Scottish
4. Anyone who votes for any Unionist party is fair game for any type of vilification. The favoured term of abuse being "Quisling".

Personally, I enjoy playing by their own rules because if I wanted sane and orderly debate I would have written letters to the Guardian.

I much prefer the rough and tumble of the boards.

Now, as a Labour Party member and donor and Union loving Scottish patriot who is British before all else, could I ask one of you SNP lickspittles to pop out and buy me a mars bar?
96

Miss H,

05/06/2009 14:32:22
102 Housing? GCC doesn't control housing since Labour came up with the imspired notion of giving it to the GHA.

Ah the GHA.

A glorious monument to the genius of the Scottish Labour Party.
97

peter1958,

Glasgow 05/06/2009 14:35:42
Sorry Miss H but you are wrong again.
Every local authority has a statutory duty with regards housing and the provision of same.
How it sets about those tasks is a matter for its own discretion but the statutory duty remains.
Try again.
98

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 14:38:51
118 Peter how many social houses were built and provided to the Scottish people by your beloved Labour Party between 1999 - 2007?
99

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 14:44:54
116 Peter, Peter

Quote "Now, as a Labour Party member and donor and Union loving Scottish patriot who is British before all else, could I ask one of you SNP lickspittles to pop out and buy me a mars bar?"

Surely irony and contradiction are strangers to yourself.

How can somebody claim to be a Scottish Patriot and then claim to be British before all else be compatible?
100

peter1958,

GLASGOW 05/06/2009 14:47:39
Turdmud asks
"How can somebody claim to be a Scottish Patriot and then claim to be British before all else be compatible?"

See rule 3 above
101

peter1958,

Glasgow 05/06/2009 14:49:28
Turdbod - where's my effin mars bar?
102

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 14:51:37
121 I see when your arguement is shown to be flawed resort to petty name calling.

Nope I am afraid you'll have to do better, were did I write if you don't vote for the SNP you were not Scottish.

You wrote you were British above all else and a Scottish patriot, all I asked was for yourself to explain that contradicition.
103

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 14:52:58
122 If you can afford to contribute to the Labour party, you can afford your own confectionary.
104

peter1958,

Glasgow 05/06/2009 14:54:12
Whilst out on your errands you may wish to ask yourself what is the inherent cotradiction in the SNP seeking to take Scotland into Europe and cedeing its sovreignty.
Now as a Unionist and pan-Unionist I have no difficulty with that and nor does this contradict a sense of patriotism.
By your own rules of engagement, would a pro EU SNP member be similarly afflicted and also a stranger to irony and contradiction.
Has anyone told our FM?
105

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 14:54:32
122 Okay Peter I'll send it to your address at

Lampits Rd
Carstairs Junction, Lanark, ML11 8RP
106

peter1958,

Glasgow 05/06/2009 14:58:25
And I shall return to sender
C/o SNP HQ, Strasbourg, Nr Wishaw
107

Electric Hermit,

05/06/2009 15:05:57
2
Vivas

"For those of use who have been voting for independence for 30 years, these kind of council results are salutory reminders of the battle that has still to be won."

Very well said. I would only add that local council by-elections are very far from being the reliable predictors that Iain Gray seems to imagine. While I am surprised and disappointed that the SNP candidates didn't win, I have sense enough to know that there are factors may be massively significant at local level whilst remaining all but invisible to those not close to the situation.

When it comes to the next UK general election and particularly the next Scottish Parliament election, the British Labour Party will be looking back fondly on these council by-election wins in search of some comfort.
108

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 15:10:10
125 Any country that is part of the EU has share part of it's sovereignty, it does not sign it away.

If that is the case your criteria would be the same for the UK so what would the differnce be between the UK and an independent Scotland.

The real power in europe is with the Council of Europe and the Council of Ministers, so Scotland would have a greater say that it does being part of the UK.
109

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 15:12:02
No Peter the clue in the return address is Auld Reekie!
110

The Tin Man,

05/06/2009 15:12:25
#127 peter

Ah, the ungraspable dichotomy of unionism. Bizarely, the SNP have die-hard unionist policies. Gotta get us into that political union (without asking the electorate).
111

Electric Hermit,

05/06/2009 15:12:26
102
peter1958

"The noise then from SNP was that it was going to sweep all before it..."

When you grow up perhaps you will learn to distinguish between political rhetoric and political analysis.
112

Miss H,

05/06/2009 15:15:00
Tee hee - the Guardian has got hold of Labour's briefing note on today's events.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2009/jun/05/purnell-labour-briefing

The 'good news' section is headed up by their two council wins in Scotland. Dear me - nothing could highlight better how much trouble they are in could it?
113

peter1958,

Glasgow 05/06/2009 15:15:35
Electric hermit says
"I would only add that local council by-elections are very far from being the reliable predictors that Iain Gray seems to imagine"

No hermit, we in the Labour Party in Scotland are absolutely astounded to have held onto any seat of any description given the events of the last six months.

What it actually describes is the abject failure of the opposition parties IN SCOTLAND to blow over the house of cards despite trumpeting their own virtues.

We thought the results of Bristol were going to repeated all over the UK and we are just grateful that the electorate come out to support our candidates at local level.
114

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 15:16:59
128 I think Ian Gray is looking for any comfort blanket he can find, I remember not that long ago in my old scheme in Edinburgh Labour won the by-election there and folk came onto the Scotsman and said this was Labour showing it was returning to power.

I had to burst there bubble about many folk in the scheme who see voting for anybody but Labour as a betrayal of the working class.
115

eamon,

05/06/2009 15:17:50
#112 Grahamski

I understand your views on nationalism, but is it nationalism generally, or just Scottish nationalism. I agree the SNP would maybe benefit if they were to change their name, as nationalist sounds a bit xenophobic. Also agree the English need a parliament of their own. That is why I feel it is important that all 4 nations need to take a bit of time to reflect on whats best for themselves before we all come together on points of mutual interest and agree a new union for the future. What we have a the moment is rotten to the core, none of the nations are happy with it. Lets take a fresh look at ourselves and built something for all our futures.
116

Electric Hermit,

05/06/2009 15:18:33
134
peter1958

"...we are just grateful that the electorate come out to support our candidates at local level."

I should think "grateful" hardly covers it. Just don't get too exited. These results mean less than nothing in terms of national and UK politics.
117

David55,

05/06/2009 15:19:32
peter1958,Glasgow 05/06/2009 14:17:48
Well Dave55, are you Christine Graham in disguise?
I think we shold be told.
---------------------------------------------------

Only at the weekend. I go to parties with Phil Woolas.
118

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 15:20:45
131 TM, and Miss H might correct me if I am wrong but the SNP policy is to have a referendum on membership of the EU.

133 Miss H the equivalent of giving a dying person a wee bit of morphine.
119

peter1958,

Glasgow and close to Bishopbriggs 05/06/2009 15:22:11
Miss H will recall what political annilation is when she recalls the SNPs remarkable election results of 1979.

Indeed, the entire party representation in Westminster can still all fit into one taxi provided Ol' Free Dinners remains double-salaried.
120

Electric Hermit,

05/06/2009 15:23:04
112
Grahamski

"The very concept of nationalism is anathema to me."

Having read some of your rants I am quite prepared to believe that you are shallow-minded enough to believe that yours is the only possible definition of nationalism.

"I reject fundamentally the assumptions made by the SNP..."

Surely you mean that you reject your own demented notions of whatever you imagine these "assumptions" to be.
121

The Sprucer,

05/06/2009 15:23:51

Peter 1958,

If you've got testicles, then we can have a wee chat about the state of the Labour Party on Monday.

M.
122

Electric Hermit,

05/06/2009 15:25:33
139
Tormod

"...SNP policy is to have a referendum on membership of the EU."

Why would we do that? We are already part of the EU.
123

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 15:28:56
140 Oh dear, well that will help your party won't it, remember 79!

Was a referendum not held in that year, that a majority of the Scottish public agreed to Scottish devolution, but because of Labour MP's agreeing to insert a clause that required 40%.

124

The Tin Man,

05/06/2009 15:30:00
#139 Tormond

From the exec's white paper on the seperatist / unionist future they envisage:

"3.21 An independent Scotland would continue in the European Union and bear the burdens and fulfil the responsibilities of membership. Following negotiations on the detailed terms of membership, Scotland would be in a similar position to other European Union member states of a similar size."

No vote mentioned - they want to stay with the union.
125

Electric Hermit,

05/06/2009 15:31:46
140
peter1958

"Indeed, the entire party representation in Westminster can still all fit into one taxi..."

When you finally arrive in the 21st century you may realise that, despite the devious efforts of the British Labour Party to prevent it, the hub of Scottish politics moved some years ago from the cesspit of Westminster to the relatively pristine environment of Holyrood.
126

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 15:32:14
143 There are varying legal viewpoints that when Scotland was to achieve Independence it would have to apply for EU membership.

If that was the case I thought the SNP has a policy for every constitutional change to be agreed by a referndum.
127

Electric Hermit,

05/06/2009 15:34:45
145
The Tin Man

"No vote mentioned - they want to stay with the union."

And rightly so. The EU is massively relevant to Scotland's future. The British union is a redundant anachronism.
128

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 15:36:05
145 I am not having a go at you but why do folk mispell my name?

And thank you for correcting me on SNP policy.
129

eamon,

05/06/2009 15:36:37
145 Tin Man

If we are already in the EU, no point in holding a referendum on if we should join it then. But it would be up to us, the people, to push for a referendum on quitting the EU if independence is achieved. I am not sure how much longer the EU will continue for in its present form anyway. Scotland seems to be in 2 unions, both of them a disaster.
130

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 15:37:10
I see Derbyshire has fallen to the tories.
131

The Tin Man,

05/06/2009 15:37:42
#148 Hermit

Mind you, it also says:

"3.27 Independence for Scotland in the 21st century would reflect the reality of existing and growing interdependence"

Contradictory gobledegook.

132

The Tin Man,

05/06/2009 15:44:40
#150 eamon

To rephrase your statement, slightly: if we are already in the UK, no point in holding a referendum on if we should leave it then.
133

Electric Hermit,

05/06/2009 15:46:51
147
Tormod

"There are varying legal viewpoints that when Scotland was to achieve Independence it would have to apply for EU membership."

To the best of my knowledge, the SNP takes the position that an independent Scotland would be an EU member. I would be very surprised if it were otherwise. But if it was necessary to apply for membership then a referendum would almost certainly be required in order to ratify the necessary changes to the constitution.
134

The Tin Man,

05/06/2009 15:48:58
#148 Hermit

"The EU is massively relevant to Scotland's future"

So we should be unionists.

The rest of the UK is even more "massively relevant to Scotland's future" due to them being our largest trading partner, by far.

So we should be unionists.
135

The Tin Man,

05/06/2009 15:50:54
#148

I am a bit dubious about the union of crowns, so that gives me 2/3 counts of unionism, just the same score as the SNP.
136

Electric Hermit,

05/06/2009 15:50:55
152
The Tin Man

"Contradictory gobledegook."

I find nothing contradictory or incomprehensible about this. It merely recognises an incontrovertible truth about the world in the 21st century.
137

The Tin Man,

05/06/2009 15:52:58
Electric

Well, at least we are all unionists. Welcome aboard.
138

eamon,

05/06/2009 15:54:22
153 Tin Man

Thats not what I said and you know it. We are in the UK, we should hold a referendum on whether we should leave or stay. If we decide to leave the union, then another referendum needs to be held to decide our future relationship with the EU. If we decide to stay, then that referendum needs to be UK wide. Both these unions are rotten. I am all for close ties with both the rest of the UK, and Europe, but the terms need to be drastically altered.

139

Electric Hermit,

05/06/2009 15:55:49
152
The Tin Man

"To rephrase your statement, slightly: if we are already in the UK, no point in holding a referendum on if we should leave it then."

That is not a rephrasing. It is a gross distortion. If someone is not a member of a club it is reasonable to ask if they want to join. If they are a member, it is reasonable to ask if they want to leave. But if they are a member it makes no sense at all to ask them if they want to join.

I hope the distinction is now clear.
140

Iainbroch,

05/06/2009 15:57:22
You can fool some of the people all of the time. The English I see however have not swallowed the Labour Lies hook line and sinker!

In relation to Independence referendum and to our position in Europe - Offer independence outwith Europe option in any multi option referendum - that is the truly democratic thing to do. Then people can opt for thier prefernces in any order they choose! But then I do not see any real eveidence to suggest that we yet live in a truly open and transparent democracy!
141

Iainbroch,

05/06/2009 15:58:28
Ian Gibson to resign with immediate effect - means another by election in Toryville!
142

Iainbroch,

05/06/2009 16:00:10
In relation to actual article - more spurious pro Labour mulch!
143

Electric Hermit,

05/06/2009 16:00:13
154
The Tin Man

"The rest of the UK is even more "massively relevant to Scotland's future" due to them being our largest trading partner, by far."

You seem to belabouring under the simplistic notion that the British union and the EU are directly comparable. They are not.

Of course the rest of the UK is highly relevant to Scotland in terms of trade. Within the EU, our trading relationship would be unchanged.
144

Electric Hermit,

05/06/2009 16:01:37
157
The Tin Man

"Well, at least we are all unionists. Welcome aboard."

You deceive only yourself.
145

Iainbroch,

05/06/2009 16:02:18
re122

Sometimes they forget to take thier medication?
146

The Tin Man,

05/06/2009 16:07:29
#163 Electric

"Of course the rest of the UK is highly relevant to Scotland in terms of trade. Within the EU, our trading relationship would be unchanged"

That would only be the case if Scotland had the same currency, and tax regime as the rest of the UK. Have a look at 'carousel fraud'.
147

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 16:09:13
Iain @ 162 Hoon has just resigned from the cabinet, there % vote is going that far south they'll need to learn spanish.
148

Electric Hermit,

05/06/2009 16:09:34
166
The Tin Man

"That would only be the case if Scotland had the same currency, and tax regime as the rest of the UK."

What nonsense! All the EU nations trade freely with each other. It is the world's largest single market.
149

Electric Hermit,

05/06/2009 16:12:05
161
Iainbroch

"Ian Gibson to resign with immediate effect - means another by election in Toryville!"

With Gibson standing as an independent, I suspect. He seems to have a lot of local support.
150

peter1958,

Glasgow 05/06/2009 16:12:08
So who won Briggs South or are you nat bams too busy with your plans to conquer the universe?

The SNP are up there with 7th Day Adventists. As they have predicted the end of the world you predict the end of the Union. It looks like even if you win elections you can't win a referendum.

FREE in 3993!
151

Iainbroch,

05/06/2009 16:13:31
I see that Labour in the North of England is blaming the London Sleazebags for its wipe out in North. What we get from Labour in Scotland is the usual bend over and take it up the a!!! BS!
152

Iainbroch,

05/06/2009 16:15:22
re 172

Are you an another good Lieboar jocko oracle?
153

Electric Hermit,

05/06/2009 16:16:15
172
peter1958

You really need to stop exaggerating the significance of these council by-election wins in such a ludicrous fashion. You are beginning to look as foolish as Iain Gray. Surely nobody wants that.
154

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 16:16:38
171 What I found very interesting about Ian Gibson is that the Labour star chamber has set criteria that when applied to other members including many in the cabinet would mean they also would be barred.

I saw the report from his local party and there were not happy about it one wee bit.
155

The Tin Man,

05/06/2009 16:17:05
#169 Electric

"All the EU nations trade freely with each other"

You miss the point. Our trading relationship with our major trade partner would be subject to exchange rate fluctuations and differing tax regimes (I presume that the point of the indy scotty argument is to be different from the rest of the UK). Hence, I dispute your claim that "our trading relationship would be unchanged".
156

Iainbroch,

05/06/2009 16:20:57
Crikey even the English Democrats won something south of the border, now lets see what did Lieboar win - oh err uhm - cant find anything. Lost those councils they held to the Tories as well.
So what now for Lieboar in Scotland - more bleating I suspect!
157

,

05/06/2009 16:21:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
158

jane shore,

london 05/06/2009 16:22:36

These results give a projection of a 22 seat majority for the Tories. Not a a Hung Parliament, but not a great majority either. The Tories would not be able to get anything too radical/reactionary through with these results.

Glad to see that Doncaster have elected an English Democratic Mayor.
159

Electric Hermit,

05/06/2009 16:26:44
180
The Tin Man

Our trading relationship with England would be no different from our trading relationship with any other EU member. These efforts at scare-mongering become more pathetically desperate as independence draws closer.
160

Iainbroch,

05/06/2009 16:26:59
Even the BNP gained a seat, did Labour gain any - nope - not even one. Bleat Bleat Bleat!
161

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 16:27:35
181 I get the bairns nappies from Costco maybe we should advise Ian Gray to use them, as his requirements have increased over the last 48hrs.
162

Astonished,

05/06/2009 16:30:30
Are labour celebrating by resigning ?




Or is elmer gray just a fudd ?
163

Iainbroch,

05/06/2009 16:30:55
re184

Crikey - still at the wacky backy girl? You just dont get it - the English have had enough they want Labour out - even the Fib Dummers could not hold thier heartlands in Somerset and Devon! England has gone to the right and the longer Labour hangs on the further right it will go?
164

jane shore,

london 05/06/2009 16:33:45


Berero etc ...187.. what Westminster voting intentions.?

I m not sure how the projections I posted were calculated, or the equation. But remember English urban areas, which are traditionally left wing, did not vote yesterday.

Whatever, interesting times leading up to whenever Gordon decides to call a GE.

And whey hey, another Scot (Yvette cooper) in the cabinet. How many does that make? We just cant keep you Scots down, can we? :)
165

Iainbroch,

05/06/2009 16:41:01
Comedian!
166

Eve,

Scotland 05/06/2009 16:53:11
Thats nice!!!

Lets all celebrate that Friday!!!! Theres more point to that!!
167

brownlie,

05/06/2009 17:04:22
204

Do you know how a camera works? You do not need some-one to be physically present to stick their picture in the paper.
168

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 17:06:40
Caroline Flint has resigned, so much for her talk last night and you won't believe this Glennis Kinnock is going to be Europe Minister hells bells and cockle shells!
169

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 17:09:19
Paul Murphy, welsh secretary has resigned as well.

The bunker is about to be sealed!
170

,

05/06/2009 17:16:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
171

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 17:22:42
208 It's a complete farce, watching the press conference, GB saying I am not arrogant ha.

He also just stated that Public Spending will not be cut, just layed a very large trap for himself.

Alex Salmond must be wetting himself with laughter!
172

,

05/06/2009 17:33:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
173

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 05/06/2009 17:36:42
210 I don't think he is, the NHS in London is going to be very busy with all this blood letting going on.

And we have the Euro results to come.
174

,

05/06/2009 17:37:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
175

,

05/06/2009 17:43:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
176

,

05/06/2009 17:59:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
177

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

05/06/2009 18:09:25
I have never taken part in an STV multi- member ward bi-election but from the scant evidence and no explanation in the article I conclude :

If in a 4 member ward, at the original election the electorate split 65/35 to elect 3 from party A and 1 from party B...the party B guy dies/stands down...at the subsequent bi-election, the split is 51/49 - Party A increase their representation to 4-0, despite their vote crumbling.

I thought they called it proportional representation?
178

,

05/06/2009 18:12:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
179

morris,

edinburgh 05/06/2009 18:13:25
Labour have lost control of Staffordshire which has been Labour held for 30 years and was the one council in England which could never fall (except it is now NOC at best and that is as clear a message to leave no 10 as it is possible to send )

They are on course to control absolutely ZILCH .

England has sent out a loud and clear unambiguouis message to Brown and his government

GET OUT !

How much clearer can it be for God sake?

Democracy:
What you get once Labour cannot carry on against the wishes of the electorate.
This is not even the humping I was talking about!

ITS WORSE !

England is currently wiping Labour off the local government map and they talk about how they are going to govern !

Brown could be out of no10 on MONDAY at the insistance of his own party !

180

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

05/06/2009 18:24:26
#214
The Phoenix Ar*se*

Salmond was on the Telly as you were typing #214, The Euro vote will not be counted till sunday/monday...we will save the triumphalism till then...meanwhile we will have to make do with schadenfruende.

On The Spook's Moniker, I was of the impression that he was ...er calling as spade a spade as it were ,which is his prerogative.
181

,

05/06/2009 18:26:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
182

,

05/06/2009 18:38:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
183

morris,

edinburgh 05/06/2009 18:49:46
219

The population of England have declared the level of faith they have in this government and it did not involve a single Scot Nat ,and Caroline Flint who was backing Brown only last night has even walked !

The Labour party's electorate are openly declaring they want BROWN OUT What part of its on the TV and even some of Labours own seniors are saying it dont you understand?
He may be gone next week ,probably on Monday.
We were warned that a humnping was possible and this is not even as good as I was expecting!
I think there is a lot to be said for the captain who stays with a sinking ship but that only applies to those who know when its time to abandon ship !Brown needs a miracle and all I see is the Euro results being just as bad.
Its the worst showing by any party of government that I can recall ! What would you consider is a bad result then? This is not a General Election I agree, but it would return power to the Conservative Party.
If Labour can recover from this it will be nothing short of a miracle !

184

Electric Hermit,

05/06/2009 18:58:10
219
The Phoenix Arises

"The money markets have faith in Brown..."

The "money markets" may have faith in Brown, but it seems that nobody else does. And who the hell has faith in the "money markets" anyway?

BTW - Looks like there must be a helluva lot of "rabid Scottish Nats" voting in the English local elections.
185

Scary Bear,

05/06/2009 19:02:28
#219 Even the politicians in Brown's own party don't think he's up to much. The voters are letting him know what they think of his record. When is he going to get the message, do the decent thing, and call an election?

After the expenses row, i'm not sure that decency is a trait I would associate with MPs so I won't hold my breath.

Gordon Brown - "I'm listening". No you're not Gordon.
186

Scary Bear,

05/06/2009 19:04:43
#220 - Do you actually have any daily interaction with real people? You are the boy in the bubble. Deluded. When the election comes, it will be a Tory landslide.
187

Iainbroch,

05/06/2009 19:19:42
The Toasted Pheasant speaks!

re 224

Be gentle on the poor gullible avain - he is in mourning!
188

,

05/06/2009 19:20:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
189

,

05/06/2009 19:24:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
190

Iainbroch,

05/06/2009 19:32:50
re227

Pedant!
191

,

05/06/2009 21:02:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
192

colin, crombie,

dunfermline 05/06/2009 22:17:50
in the 3 council by elections yesterday Labour got 5897 votes, compared to 10911 in May 2007. No doubt somewhat due to turnout, but the SNP got 3986, compared to 4444 in May 2007. If the same happened in the Euro elections, SNP will have 38% and Labour 21%
193

colin, crombie,

dunfermline 05/06/2009 22:19:29
can we expect to see a scotsman headline SNP ARE DOUBLE LABOUR
194

peter1958,

Glasgow 05/06/2009 22:26:01
I must say I am well pleased that Alan Moir held on to Briggs South and Labour overall management of EDC
Its Labour 3 SNP 0

All we need now is a better than expected performance in Europe and the fight back begins here!

195

Jerry Springer,

05/06/2009 22:26:43
"193 Berero, looking to the night sky for inspiration,05/06/2009 16:33:44


Om off now, i have embarrest Iain Grey the inept spiv of Scottish Labour. My work is done for now."

The only person you have 'embarrest' is yourself.

If you are at Heriot Watt University, then it's standards are sadly lacking
196

Electric Hermit,

06/06/2009 00:10:22
226
The Phoenix Arises

"...GB has trumped her by appointing Glenys Kinnock, older, mature and smarter."

And his second choice for the job. Or was it third? Or fourth? Who knows any more the way he is flapping around.

"That will be postal votes..."

It would be good, for your sake at least, to think that you are actually aware of what a stupid remark this. I'll be generous and assume it was meant to be a joke that just backfired on you.
197

Electric Hermit,

06/06/2009 00:13:02
230
colin, crombie

"If the same happened in the Euro elections, SNP will have 38% and Labour 21%"

You are using arithmetic against wishful thinking. That's cheating.
198

,

06/06/2009 00:31:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
199

Numpty Dumpty,

Down Under 06/06/2009 01:58:03
re 236: Maybe the SNP could pursue a grassroots, community halls approach, similar to the kind engendered by Barack Obama in the lead up to his victory? He managed to inspire enthusiasm, inclusiveness and hope...and appears to continue to do so.
200

donald,

glasgow 06/06/2009 08:03:46
The wee Grey man does not notice his Yookay world is crumbling around him.
201

Richard Lionheart,

06/06/2009 12:10:56
Who will take over from Ian Gray when he eventually takes up his Westminster seat?

He certainly can't sit in both Parliaments having critised Alex Salmond for doing so.
202

Richard Lionheart,

06/06/2009 12:18:53
#3 The picture is so that Ian Gray knows who they are talking about! It has nothing to do with raising profiles.
203

morris,

edinburgh 15/06/2009 19:50:23
Apart from both seats recording a swing FROM Labour to the SNP and these victories being hollow to anybody except the village idiot ,even if the swing had been in Labour's favour,it would do sweet francis adams to even begin to counter the absolute gubbing nationally that Labour experienced. All this confirms is that Ian Gray is not the only clown who thinks Labour can avoid a complete wipe out at the General Election !
Labour are guaranteed to snatch humiliation from the jaws of defeat!
If Ian Gray really said This is a "stunning result"he is even more desperate than I thought he was !

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
RSS Feed of this article's comments
Delivery formats: RSS, Atom, Javascript & Email
 
  

 
 

More Scottish Labour Party

More Scottish Labour Party >>

More Scottish National Party

More Scottish National Party >>

Today's Vote

Who would make the best Scottish Labour leader?
Iain Gray
Cathy Jamieson
Andy Kerr

Web Links:

Featured Advertising



Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.