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Ian Swanson: Tavish's juggling with idea of independence

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Published Date: 12 March 2009
AFTER winning the Scottish Liberal Democrat leadership last summer, Tavish Scott announced he was prepared to consider a referendum on Scotland's future.
"I am not intuitively against making sure that people have a choice and an opportunity to cast a vote on these things," he said.

The comment caused some surprise since Mr Scott had appeared as the most hard-line opponent of any coalition deal with
the SNP after the 2007 Holyrood election, telling the Nationalists not even to bother picking up the phone unless they were willing to drop their insistence on an independence referendum.

His softened stance on taking over the helm was seen as possibly paving the way for a multi-option referendum, offering voters a choice between the status quo, going it alone or a halfway house of "more powers".

Alex Salmond had made it clear during the election campaign he was willing to include a third option – and the offer is still there if the opposition parties can agree on a proposal to put on the ballot paper.

Now Mr Scott is once more ruling out a referendum – at least for now. He says people are "fed up with endless speculation about independence as they worry about having a job tomorrow".

The declaration came just after Finance Secretary John Swinney had produced a document setting out options for more financial powers and gone out of his way to praise "devo-max", effectively the Lib Dems' position.

Mr Scott and his colleagues rebuffed this advance, if that's what it was, by forcing a vote in the parliament last week which delivered a firm "No" to a referendum. The Scottish Lib Dems' spring conference in Perth this weekend will discuss the party's position on more powers for the Scottish Parliament.

A detailed, 83-line motion sets out the argument to be put to the cross-party Calman commission, but the Lib Dem leadership seems strangely reluctant to draw attention to the debate.

Instead, they say the three-day conference, which starts tomorrow, will be "all about the economy".

Although some activists are said to believe a referendum might not be a bad idea, there has been no amendment tabled calling for one.

The Lib Dems' list of responsibilities they would like transferred to Holyrood goes well beyond the borrowing powers being talked of by other parties. It includes drugs and firearms, marine policy, energy, equality and the electoral system. They say the Scottish Parliament should have the powers to raise "as much of its own revenue as practical".

They also want a new federal system of shared responsibility for tackling unemployment and overseeing shared UK networks like transport and broadcasting.

And they say the UK parliament should retain the tax powers necessary to meet its responsibilities in national emergencies, defence, foreign affairs, pensions and social security.

The motion to be debated on Saturday says Calman could deliver a "radical and progressive roadmap" for the future shape of government in Scotland.

A senior MSP, however, admits Calman might well go for the "lowest common denominator" and end up proposing fairly minimal change.

Some may feel the Lib Dems might have had more chance of achieving their own goal of significant extra devolution by pursuing some kind of closer working with the SNP. Indeed it looked for a while as if that might be on the cards.

The deal which the Lib Dems negotiated in return for their support for the SNP's budget last month was widely dismissed for failing to secure any concessions which could have a figure put on them.

But when Finance Secretary John Swinney detailed the agreement reached, he said it represented "an important development in the politics of the Scottish Parliament" and a new "strategic, economic and financial engagement".

Mr Swinney firmly rejected any notion of considering a coalition with the Lib Dems. The deal seemed to send a signal that whereas up till now the SNP's best friends in the parliament had been the Tories, the Lib Dems – possibly more natural allies – could now be approached for support as well.

Tavish Scott – who only weeks earlier was involved in a fierce confrontation with Alex Salmond and accused him of misleading parliament – used the next First Minister's Questions to cosy up to the SNP and concentrate his fire on Labour.

The new friendly relationship took a knock a few days later, though, when the SNP announced, out of the blue, that it was dropping its plans for a local income tax, one of the main issues where there was common ground with the Lib Dems.

A Lib Dem insider admits the tax U-turn was "a problem" and "a disappointment" but says the two parties are nevertheless having ongoing talks about other issues.

There has been speculation the Lib Dems might be ready to think about a coalition with the SNP after the next Holyrood elections in 2011, but a senior Lib Dem MSP is less than enthusiastic.

"We could find common ground on social policies, but the big stumbling block will always be that issue of independence.

"If you are in coalition, you have to feel you can work with your partners day-to-day, but it also helps if you feel you're heading in the same direction.

"It's difficult to see a coalition being a success when you don't agree on where you want to end up."





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1

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

12/03/2009 09:15:56
Why the reference to a 2LIT U-turn"? That is just blatantly dishonest reporting. the lIT proposals are still in the pipeline and have only been postponed because the opposition parties won't agree to them. FFS, if Alex Salmond could walk on water, the Scotsman would spin it as "Salmond unable to swim".
2

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

12/03/2009 09:16:57
Typo, should read "LIT u-turn". Should proof read before hitting post comment!
3

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 12/03/2009 10:09:59
"A senior MSP, however, admits Calman might well go for the "lowest common denominator" and end up proposing fairly minimal change."

Calman boycotted the SNP and, therefore, the views of almost a third of the electorate. The latest poll on Independence showed 40% against and 38% for. So that's 38% of people whose views, according to Calman, don't deserve to be heard. And they won't all be in the SNP.

Calman has dismissed the Lib Dems ideas on Federalism (so add that to those in favour of independence and we're over 50%), though on what grounds we don't yet know; Calman is an illusion of action, a feet-dragging exercise, designed to set limits on the aspirations of the Scottish public by deciding what can and can't be debated. As Paulo Friere said, the choice lies "between acting or having the illusion of acting". Only a multi-option referendum would offer a fair resolution of this constitutional issue.

4

DaveK,

Edinburgh 12/03/2009 10:32:32
#3
I'll tell you what is an illusion - your maths
5

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 12/03/2009 10:36:50
#4, DaveK

Thanks Dave. Nothing else of consequence to add then?
6

Hilary,

Edinburgh 12/03/2009 10:44:07
Calman can't discuss federalism as it has implications for Wales, NI and England - and they are unlikley to accept being told what to do by Calman or the Nat. Conversation....

Calman also made no bones about being set up to strengthen the Union, it was explicit. Still, George Reid and otehrs still saw the sense in meeting it to talk further powers, and now the Scottish Govt. has too.

Interesting that the FM can find time to meet the Wales Holtham Commission on extending powers (but not discussing independence for Wales), but not the equivalent for Scotland....

7

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 12/03/2009 10:58:42
#6 Hilary,

Any further devolving of powers to Scotland will have implications for England. Just as David Cameron's decision to stop Scots MPs voting on England only issues will have implications for devolution (since it will necessitate decisions over what constitutes an England only issue). Calman has, in fact, met in England and sought views from people there because it was recognised that there would be implications beyond Scotland. Federalism may be a way of strengthening the union and an option that, in the longer term, may work considerably better than placing a minimum on change, as Calman seems set to do (and, arguably, was set up to do).

I suspect that Calman will not be received well and, with David Cameron in power at Westminster, we will run into another set of constitutional questions that the Scottish public will wish to see resolved. It will be interesting to see where Labour line up then. Calman may offer to little to stave off support either for the SNP or Independence.



8

Hilary,

Edinburgh 12/03/2009 11:35:58
Gregor:

You may be right, but I suspect Tory involvement in Calman is their first real attempt to get a handle on what devolution actually means.

And it woudl simply be polutically unthinkable for an entirely Scottish group to propose an overall Federal settlment for the UK. Taking evidence in England (and Wales) is one thing, but suggesting a complete overhaul of the UK is quite another.

At least by consulting down there they are trying to minismise the same accusations of Scotland getting special treatment in 1999 with no consultation.
9

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 12/03/2009 13:04:36
#8 Hilary,

You're right that it wouldn't be down to Scotland to decide the federal structure of the UK, should there be such a thing. The assembly option offered recently in England was voted down, for much the same reasons (I believe) as the devolution referendum in Scotland in the 70s. It was decided not to give any of the assemblies any real political teeth, and yet both Scotland and Wales look set to win further powers, even in spite of Calman. I think if I lived in the north of England I'd be a bit miffed. Why is it good enough for Scotland, Wales, even London, but not anyone else?

From my standpoint, however, Scotland is in a different position politically. There are three options open to us: independence, federalism, or the status quo (and endless tinkering with the devolution settlement). The Calman Commission won't, in my opinion, resolve the basic issues that voters in Scotland are concerened with: amongst them taxation, energy, certain economic issues, and foreign policy. To that end, I think independence is a viable option, since I don't see why the electorate in Scotland should set aside their aspirations for increased decision-making simply because the debate in England hasn't caught up and, in fact, has been aimed primarily at not having that debate and undermining it where possible.
10

The west awake,

Argyll 12/03/2009 13:09:03
How difficult is it to understand Lib policy and strategy?
They want Frederalism, which is way beyond what would be tolerated by Labour or the Tories, - so what do they do? They join Calman, with its built-in Labour/Tory minimal change majority!
How in Gods name do they reckon that to be the best way to achieve Federalism? And they are apparently now "frustrated" by a lack of progress they are experiencing with Calman? - Oh really?
Is it just me or would Calman not represent the LEAST likely way to go about getting Federalism?
In doing so they reject dealing with the SNP, who have pretty much promised them that Federalism could be included in a referendum choice list. A referendum being asking the people what they want incidentally - which last I heard was something the Libs were quite keen on?
Now, mark you, even though this is hard for a Nat to say, this at a time when I reckon in such a referendum Federalism would probably win.
Would any Lib out there please try and explain how the Libs have arrived at this seemingly bizarre state of affairs.
Oh, and while they're at it;
"If you are in coalition, you have to feel you can work with your partners day-to-day, but it also helps if you feel you're heading in the same direction."
- Just confirm that in all their years with Labour they did indeed feel that Labour and them were "heading in the right direction". A wee issue called Iraq springs to mind, among many, many others.

- I'm just about giving up even trying to understand these people!
11

The Tin Man,

12/03/2009 13:35:14
The Lib Dems struggle with the idea of independence, whilst the SNP struggle with the idea of pretty much anything, as meaningful policy-making has proven to be beyond their ability.
12

The west awake,

Argyll 12/03/2009 13:47:25
Tin
"the SNP struggle with the idea of pretty much anything"

- The SNP stand for Independence for Scotland. I understand that, the man in the street understands that.
It explains our past, our present and our future. It explains the rational behind our policy decisions and strategies. It explains why we are working within the current UK devolved structure, - as a means to acheive it. For Unionists its an "obsession" or a "distraction" etc, for us it's unity of purpose and a clear, understandable goal.
While I agree with you that the Libs struggle with the idea of Independence, could you - no doubt a Labour supporter - sum up what New Labour stands for as easily?
13

The Tin Man,

12/03/2009 14:03:59
12

"The SNP stand for Independence for Scotland."

Exactly my point. The worst economic downturn in living memory? Banking melt-down? Hundreds of thousands made unemployed?

Oh, "The SNP stand for Independence for Scotland."

Great. You voted-in a completely ineffective double-chinned banker because "The SNP stand for Independence for Scotland." Naughty little egotist.
14

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 12/03/2009 14:24:27
There is no mystery, for Gordon Brown has made it clear, he will support anything the Calman commission comes up with 'if' he agrees with it.

For once he speaks the truth, it's a pity he didn't say what the situation will be if he doesn't agree, that's if he is still around, but I think we can take it from what he didn't say, that if he is still around, doesn't agree with it's ideas, then they will get short shrift.

I also believe however that, the powers that be, at Westminster, at that time, will come up with minimalist
proposals for change, which they will trumpet, with
the help of their pals in the media, as a great deal for Scotland, their members in Scotland will of course agree.

Westminster might well say that is going to assume control over all matters pertaining to nucleor energy,

If the report comes out while Gordon is still in charge, then I think they will also say that as it has now been shown (in their eyes), that financial problems like funding for the new Forth crossing can be worked out between both governments, then there is no need for Scotland to get borrowing powers, but they might revisit the idea some time in the future.

Therby keeping it as a future election pledge, that is only to be used in emergencys, like devolution.

It's interesting that none of the unionist party's Scottish branches have told us what they will do if Calman doesn't agree with their submissions, but then I expect there still waiting to be told by their head offices.
15

The west awake,

Argyll 12/03/2009 15:03:36
Tin Yin
I congratulate you, as requested, on a succinct description of Labour - ie an attack on the SNP. That pretty much sums up Labour in Scotland.

Your informed comment then leads on, naturally, to that aspect of nationalist policy which you find particularly difficult, ie that of Salmonds previous employment with RBS and the fact he has a double chin.
Your coup de grace is to then utterly destroy my argument by repeating exactly what I said.

I must say there is a tiny glimmer of actual debate in your assertion (if I am reading it right) that instead of focussing on the Independence debate, the SNP should be focussing on Labours recession.
Firstly, I believe there is a story in this paper about the talks held recently between Salmond and Murphy about...the economy, and that even Labour - never ones to pass up a swipe at the SNP - are describing them as positive.
Secondly, can even you imagine the cacophony of wailing (no doubt led by you) about "broken promises" which would follow any announcement the SNP were postponing the referendum?
Thirdly, Independence is the SNPs answer to Labours recession, as it is our vision of how we best serve Scotland overall. To repeat, you view it as a weakness, I see it as a strength.
What is Labours vision? ... - Oh sorry, we've covered that.

16

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 12/03/2009 15:44:12
#11 Tin Man, #15 The west awake

What was last weekend's Labour conference other than a NatBash? I endured Gordon Brown's speech, Jim Murphy's, and Iain Gray's, and the only applause they really got was when 'slamming' the Nats. Where were the new policies that would move Labour from a party of opposition to a viable alternative to the SNP? PPP/PFI? Council Tax 2? And where do they stand on curbing our drink culture? Where are Labour's initiatives? A responsible opposition turns itself into a viable alternative to the government; Labour, on the other hand, wage a war of attrition so that they can return us to policies they held before the election that are long by their sell by date. The site of Iain Gray on Politics Now the other week saying we'll do something, we just don't know what it is yet - but wait and see, it'll be great, you'll all love it, was farcical. If Labour want to be taken seriously they should oppose where opposition is merited; at the moment, they oppose because they feel the need to reject EVERYTHING that the SNP put forward.
17

Eve,

Scotland 12/03/2009 15:55:42


#13 The Tin Man: Unemployment is far form somthing new the risk is always there. I've been unemployed a few times in my life, it's not an easy time but it's something that happens regardless of wither their a reasion going on.

I really find it incredably difficult to belive that job hunting will be more difficult in an independent Scotland. I fact I think independence has potencial to create and develop more jobs in Scotland. After all the union is famous for puting Scotland down by keeping secreets or telling lies and closing industries in Scotland over elsewhere.
18

Eve,

Scotland 12/03/2009 16:07:04
"It's interesting that none of the unionist party's Scottish branches have told us what they will do if Calman doesn't agree with their submissions, but then I expect there still waiting to be told by their head offices."

Spooky How transpartent they have become in reasent years. I wonder wither it's the internet or develoution which has helped high light what pupets quailties and skills they use on daily basies. Such a shame some of them are really smart and have some really good ideas BUT ignore their own thoughts to please thoes in Westminster.

19

Jenny C,

Edinburgh 12/03/2009 17:01:55
#10 "How difficult is it to understand Lib policy and strategy?"

I presume that you've noticed the westminster and scottish libs both trying to be more tory friendly, with their tax cutting policies etc.

There current policy of joining the unionist instead of the nats, probably has more to do with them seeing the tories as the biggest threat to marginal lib dem westminster seats at the next general election. Also seem to be heading cameron's way if the next westminster parliament is hung.

Joining the nats now won't do them much favour in the seats they need to win/defend in southern england next year. Though after that election i wouldn't be surprised if they supported a multi-option referendum at the last minute.
20

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 12/03/2009 17:19:53
This all happened 9-months ago?

 

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