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Alexander makes fresh call for vote on independence

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Published Date: 22 June 2008
WENDY Alexander has repeated her support for a referendum on Scottish independence, declaring yesterday that the vote would happen and should happen soon.
Just a month after the issue caused a rift with Gordon Brown, the Scots Labour leader told an audience on Radio 4's Any Questions that "we're going to have a referendum". She then called on First Minister Alex Salmond to "get on with it" by bringing forward the date of the referendum from 2010 – the date he has currently set.

Alexander's spokesman last night insisted that she was merely restating her position. But her declaration that the referendum is "going" to happen prompted claims by the SNP that Alexander had now guaranteed her support for a vote – and prompted further warnings that the strategy has not been backed by the Prime Minister.

Alexander was addressing the question during a round-table debate on the BBC's flagship politics programme.

"I don't think it is in Scotland's interests to have this continuing uncertainty. We're going to have a referendum – get on – let the people of Scotland speak," she said. "Ultimately, whether you remain part of the sovereign state is a matter for the people."

In a message to Salmond, she added: "We shouldn't be leaving it until the last few months (of the Scottish Parliament's four-year term] – get on with it."

Alexander has told friends her support is aimed at preventing Salmond from being able to accuse Labour of preventing Scots from having their say on independence. She feared that, had Labour continued to oppose the vote, Salmond would have used their position to gain further support for the SNP in the 2011 Scottish elections.

But the policy does not have the backing of large sections of the party. One insider said last night: "There is a sense of frustration when she does this because it is bad for her more than anyone else. She should stop shooting herself in the foot, assuming she has any feet left. The Labour Party can't decide on this without putting it to the membership."

Another critic said: "There is still a hope that she will go sooner rather than later, and this will just add to that feeling. We need a professional leader in charge, and she isn't it."

Alexander's latest comments received a cool response from Downing Street yesterday. "This is a matter for Wendy Alexander. There is nothing new in these latest comments," said a spokesman.

Previously, enterprise spokesman Iain Gray had ruled out Labour voting for the SNP's current bill as it stands unless the wording of the proposed referendum question is changed. Under the SNP's proposals, voters would be asked to agree or disagree that "the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the government of the UK so that Scotland becomes an independent state".

A spokesman for Alexander said: "They will not vote for any question, but the principle remains – that Labour believes that the Scottish people should have the opportunity to decide on the question of whether the country becomes a separate state, with a fair question put to them. Her position has not changed on that."

However, the SNP insisted last night that Alexander's comments locked her in to backing a referendum bill.

SNP MSP Kenny Gibson said: "By reviving her call for an independence referendum, Wendy Alexander has backed Labour into a constitutional corner – while also exposing how the party is disintegrating in Scotland and across the UK. In Scotland, she has left Labour with no real choice but to back the Scottish Government's planned referendum bill in 2010."

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1

Angus Ogg,

21/06/2008 23:44:50

Hen, yer needles stuck.

Try and come up with an original idea?

Labour's been caught regurgitating the same announcements repeatedly.

Time, after time, after time.

Spin, after spin, after spin.

Yer tired, detested, and time is running out.

It's time.

Time for yer P45 Dear.
2

yoric,

22/06/2008 00:25:46
It's a pity that Labour aren't as keen on people having a referendum on the EU treaty.

It won't matter who runs Scotland in 10 years time, because all the decisions of any importance will be made in Brussels.
3

,

22/06/2008 00:29:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

,

22/06/2008 00:30:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 22/06/2008 00:30:57

No Wendy a referendum when the government calls it please remember you are in opposition .

As an ex slave said to his old Massa during the American Civil war

THE BOTTOM RAIL IS ON THE TOP NOW
6

Paddi,

22/06/2008 00:42:47
Where she been? talking about rolling out her umpteenth relaunch no doubt. You got to try harder than this.......
7

Conan the Librarian™,

22/06/2008 00:57:52
4
Indeed.

That wide mouth...
8

Senga Jean,

22/06/2008 01:00:20
Andrew Marr said it beautifully. The Union is like two pizza slices drawing apart with only melted cheese making the connection. Scotland why do you suffer this indignity? Independence is the only answer!
9

Traquir , Alba,

22/06/2008 01:03:24
So another U-Turn for Alexander - how many
is that now, and really cares what she
says. A topic like GERS is of much more
relevance than a politician who has
been disgraced to such a level even
The Telegraph calls her "Scotland's, the UK's the World's, the Universe's Most Inept Political
Leader" - see tinyurl.com/3llxyq

Just in case any of you guys were unable to
find the Sunday Herald story on GERS here
is a link to it - tinyurl.com/5nzsv3

It is 11th ranking in the business section.
The Sunday Herald really needs to review
their system that ranks the priorities
of stories - there appears to be something
badly amiss here. Even purely on economic
grounds (i.e. foot traffic for advertising)
it makes sense to put stories which
are high interest &
high relevance to Scotland
in a high position in the rankings.

Of course there may be some other agenda
here that causes GERS to be hidden at
a low level away from the main headlines
which have such stellar stories as the
following taking precedence :

. More incompetence from Wendy and team -
so nothing new there.
. The importance of local food labeling
. Royal Highlight Show bun fight with BAA
. Fixing leaking pipes.
. Tory candidate calls racist Rhodesian
leader ‘a hero’

I wonder if the main Scottish newspapers will
be willing to be open on what the processes
are within their corporate structure
by which the crucial placement, of
their stories is determined. It does not
appear to be based on economic reasons
(which is something that should be near
and dear to them), it does not appear
to be in terms of stories that are most
important to Scotland, so just what
are the criteria ?

For Scotland on Sunday I am not sure where
they have hidden their coverage of
the important topic of GERS ?
10

Leerie the Lamplighter,

22/06/2008 01:09:32
#7 is one sad puppy.

We all know what makes his keyboard sticky.
11

subrosa,

22/06/2008 01:21:17
Did anyone hear Any Questions? Wendy Alexander was completely out of her depth and her answers were hesitant and drawled.

By comparison Nicola Sturgeon was professional and direct.

Why they had to have 2 MPs I don't know. Surely one Lib/dem MP could have been on the panel? Of course there's only one Tory MP and I expect he was busy with local fetes and things.
12

brian mcc,

the arctic 22/06/2008 01:45:55
reverse psychology

She wants a referendum now because it would be defeated. If the vote is cast next year or 2010, passage is probable.

London needs to see a psychiatrist.
13

Edward,

22/06/2008 02:52:26
#13 Subrosa
I listened to 'Any Questions' Found Wendy completely out of her depth. She was asked repeatedly by Jonathan Dimbleby , if she had spoken with Gordon Brown or had agrrement from Gordon Brown regarding her call for a referendum. She just ignored the question and ploughed on repeating ad nauseum that the SNP should not wait that the delay was causing damage. What I did find telling was her remark that it was not good that the referendum was going to be after the next General election. Nicola Sturgeon pointed out to her that Gordon Brown had dithered on the General Election and that there could have been one the end of last year.
Wendy's remarks imply that Labour are wanting to force the referendum before the next General Election for there own purposes
14

Beth Boyle,

22/06/2008 04:04:37
She is calling Salmond's bluff because he doesn't have the votes! You go girl!
15

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 22/06/2008 04:39:16
Freedom!Independence! but not just yet Lord not just yet.
16

Richardinho,

22/06/2008 06:09:22
This is the Labour party that wont hold a referendum on the European constitution AT ALL (despite having promised one), refuse to take part in a By-election for what seem the most childish and petty of party political reasons, AND didn't get behind Wendy the last time she raised this!
17

Jimmy the Pie,

22/06/2008 06:31:01
I wonder if Red Wendy had her infamous e-mails which might clear her of the 'backhanders from Jersey businessman' scandal.

Will we ever get sight of them???
18

Calum10,

Dundee 22/06/2008 07:21:05
Quote: "We're going to have a referendum" - Wendy Alexander.

Labour can't backtrack on this statement.

A referendum on Scotish independence is now only TWO YEARS away.

How do Unionists like those bananas?
19

James,

Dundee 22/06/2008 07:52:00
Please go agent Wendy, but not until after 2010.

Labour in 4-cheese stuffed-crust meltdown
20

David MacVicar,

web 22/06/2008 07:54:48
UK Deficit widened to £4.3bn in April.
Source: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=199

At the end of December 2007 general government debt was £618.8 billion, equivalent to 43.8 per cent of GDP.
Yearly deficit: Provisional estimates show that for the calendar year 2007 the UK recorded a government deficit of £39.4 billion.
21

Roy,

22/06/2008 08:34:57
"She should stop shooting herself in the foot, assuming she has any feet left."

Maybe nae feet, but she sure has a gob on her.
22

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 22/06/2008 08:59:05
With the Labour government about to end in tears, and the prospect of the Tories being returned with a massive majority in England, Ms. Alexander knows only too well of the significance of the proposed Referendum in 2010.

It casts a giant shadow of foreboding over the Labour Party in Scotland, which along with the other minority opposition parties, will undoubtedly suffer a further haemorrhaging of Unionist Votes to the SNP!
23

Cadgers,

Perht 22/06/2008 09:00:38
""the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the government of the UK so that Scotland becomes an independent state"."...I thought we, Scotland that is, are a country. Am I wrong?
24

john z,

edinburgh 22/06/2008 09:55:21
Wendy, Wendy, Wendy, what are you on about now?? Hmm??

Here's a tip. Next FMQ's, take a wee look over your shoulder, and you'll suddenly realise that big lassie ballie is after your job. Fake posh accent as well.
25

john z,

edinburgh 22/06/2008 09:59:16
Anyway, tell the folks in No.10, Scotland is getting a referendum. Does anyone think she consulted Brown?? Thought not.

Either way, it's up to the democratically elected Government of Scotland (and not the opposition) when a referendum is held (as was previously explained to daft Wendy). At present, they have it on the statute books for 2010. Nice to know Labour fully support it.
26

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 22/06/2008 10:19:16
Seems Wendy Alexander is running out of ideas and new arguments. We all know the SNP ain't what they paint themselves to be and the longer they are in charge it will become even more apart they are a one trick horse that even wee fat Eck salmon wouldn't back with his ain money when it came to the real crunch time. Like oil the SNP game has a finite life so get your head into gear all you gNAT supporters cause the game plan is starting to come apart at the seams for sure.
27

b.allan,

alba 22/06/2008 10:28:41
ah, the gobby clown is back..she's been so quiet lately i was wondering if she was in the jail...thanks for your opinion Wendy, like we care.
28

Rodster,

Glasgow 22/06/2008 10:30:56
Wendy , sweetheart , old saying for you , ensure brain is in gear before engaging the gub!!
Broon will be sending some of his cronies to slap you around.
The only referendum question the Liebour Party want is
"Do you voting fodder daft Scottish twits wish to remain the toy thing and gravy train providers of us Quisling Scots in Westminster Aye or Yes please vote"
29

Grant,

Scotland 22/06/2008 10:32:59
#30

No, sorry I think you're a wee bit confused there. Mixed signals and everything. It's the Union that has a rapidly diminishing and finite shelf-life. Our friends in England are also starting to get the measure of Scottish Unionism and don't like what they see, and they may well be the catalyst for putting United Kingdom out of its misery. So Unionists, get your head into gear. The Union is starting to fray at the seams. Time's up.
30

Publius,

Girvan 22/06/2008 10:33:03
I listened to the Any Questions programme yesterday. Wendy Alexander is supposed to be an educated woman but she sounded like an incoherent harridan. Nicola Sturgeon wasn't much better. She's secretary for health but she hadn't got a clue about hospital infections or what to do about them. I can't even remember the name of the LidDem. The only panellist who seemed to know what he was talking about was Dominic Grieve and he's an English Tory.
31

frank mcbride,

lusitania 22/06/2008 10:40:46
Why are NuLabour getting themselves into such a tizzy?

The SNP stated, clearly, before, and during, the 2007 General Election that they proposed to have a Referendum in 2010.

NuLabour, and the others Unionist Parties, agreed that it would only happen over their dead bodies.

Now after NuLab meltdown, in Sept/Oct. 2007, we have a call for AN IMMEDIATE REFERENDUM. Why is this I wonder??? Could it by cynicism, borne out of desperation???

As Nicol Stephen would say, I smell the sleaze that comes from fear.
32

Angus Ogg,

22/06/2008 10:47:24
#4 Patrick McG.,

You own me a new keyboard.

Read your comment when taking a sip of coffee and burst out laughing. Keyboard now Coffeeboard

I take it you are being ironic?

The picture of anyone being scared of the pantomime dames, Bendy, or Jackie The Hutt is hillarious.

Well done Number 6. You make folk smile.
33

Daveunderwater,

Bennachie 22/06/2008 11:00:02
Poor Wendy, unfortunately whilst Paw Broon is pulling the strings she must obey Westminster's orders.
34

Daveunderwater,

Bennachie 22/06/2008 11:02:44
Published Date:
25 May 2008
By Eddie Barnes
Political Editor
LABOUR has issued a stern message that it will block the SNP's plans for an independence referendum, after one of its senior figures ruled out supporting the proposed bill.
Enterprise spokesman Iain Gray told a conference last week that the wording of the question which Alex Salmond wants to put to Scots was "unacceptable" to Labour.

Poor Paisley Puppet
35

Daveunderwater,

Bennachie 22/06/2008 11:04:27
Published Date: 11 May 2008
By Eddie Barnes
Political Editor
WENDY Alexander was ridiculed by her political opponents last night after she was ordered by Gordon Brown to "close down" any further discussion of an independence referendum in Scotland.
In emergency talks on Friday following the Scottish leader's astonishing call for a referendum, the Prime Minister told Alexander the issue should be ditched.

Scotland on Sunday can reveal the Prime Minister told Alexander twice in the past few days that he did not support her proposal to force an referendum on Scotland, to "call the SNP's bluff".

Marionette Mooth Muffled
36

Publius,

Girvan 22/06/2008 11:05:34
# 6 Marky Bhoy

"No Wendy a referendum when the government calls it please remember you are in opposition"

Wrong. Referendum when Parliament agrees to one. The SNP forms the government but it is only the largest minority among several minorities. Also its manifesto did not promise a referendum in 2010. It said a 'likely date of 2010'. If the SNP really does believe that the Scots are suffering under the English yoke, it should want to free us as soon as possible, so why not 2009? But perhaps the SNP does not believe its own propaganda. Perhaps they're just a bunch of politicians on the make like all the others.
37

,

22/06/2008 11:06:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

subrosa,

22/06/2008 11:06:30
# 30. Liberal for Life

Thank you. Best laugh I've had all weekend.
39

Daveunderwater,

Bennachie 22/06/2008 11:08:02
Published Date:
25 May 2008
By Eddie Barnes
Political Editor
LABOUR has issued a stern message that it will block the SNP's plans for an independence referendum, after one of its senior figures ruled out supporting the proposed bill.
Enterprise spokesman Iain Gray told a conference last week that the wording of the question which Alex Salmond wants to put to Scots was "unacceptable" to Labour.

Poor Paisley Puppet
40

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 11:08:03
Aye absolutely and from now on the SNP should timetable all of their policies for Labours convenience. How on earth do they expect to govern without Labour pulling their strings.
Wendy is after all the rightfully unelected First Minister by default of being leader of the Labour party in Scotland.
41

Citylocal Fife,

Fife News 22/06/2008 11:08:28
We have already achieved our first step towards independence, by freeing ourselves from the confinements and shackles of 'the clones of Blair'.

We have also successfully rid ourselves of one incompetent leader in the Scottish Labour party, I'm glad to see Wendy stepping up to take Joke's place!

I wish her a happy retirement or transfer to Westminster!
42

subrosa,

22/06/2008 11:09:40
# 34

I entirely disagree with you about Nicola Sturgeon's performance on Any Questions. She was articulate and knowledgeable about c.difficile. This superbug holds particular interest for her as her grandmother contracted it shortly before she died. I'm a severe critic of politicians talking about c.diff as I am a survivor of this bug myself so I know when someone is talking sense and when someone is talking garbage.
43

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 11:09:48
40

So by your logic the SNP cant call the referendum timetable but its ok for the opposition parties to call it? whats the point of winning an election then?
44

Daveunderwater,

22/06/2008 11:09:58
One in four Labour members quit party

Published Date: 16 March 2008
By Eddie Barnes
Political Editor

SCOTTISH Labour has lost nearly a quarter of its membership since the start of the war in Iraq, and looks set to be overtaken by the SNP as the country's biggest party.

New figures, to be released this week, show the former dominant force in Scottish politics now has just 18,000 fully paid-up members, compared to the list of 23,000 in 2002.

Membership has slumped by nearly half since the high point in the mid-Nineties when, on the cusp of power and led by a popular Tony Blair, the party had more than 30,000 signed-up members.

However, the latest drop in Labour's figures means the SNP could soon become the largest mass membership party in the country.

Doomed, Doomed and Dumbed
45

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 11:15:14
40

Why didnt Gordon Brown call an election when he took over the Labour party leadership?
46

John S,

22/06/2008 11:21:38
Wendy, an election or referendum which will come first ?
Wendy "we're going to have a referendum". 20 June 2008
Wendy said if the SNP don't get the LIT Bill through parliament she will put a vote of no confidence in the government so they will have to go to the people-Mar 29, 2008
47

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/06/2008 11:23:11
50. How odd - the SNP manifesto clearly states it would introduce a referendum bill in 2010. Weird that they have "delayed" the year 2010 for political reasons - what will they do next, postpone Monday?

Strangely Labours 1997 manifesto promised a referendum on voting reform and one on the Euro. Their 2005 referendum promised a referendum on the EU constitutional treaty - I missed all three.
48

Daveunderwater,

Bennachie 22/06/2008 11:25:21
The Calman commission lacks the confidence to take a similar risk. It only seeks to engage with those who already agree with it and is threatened by any alternative view. This is an institution that belongs in the past. Even the royal commissions of old would have minority reports from dissenting members. The composition of Calman, crowded with establishment figures carefully selected for their loyalty to the status quo, makes that impossible. So tightly controlled was its selection process that George Reid, the highly respected former presiding officer of the parliament, was ruled out because he is a nationalist.

Calman is neither open nor inclusive - how could it be? It has a three monkeys remit. It cannot allow itself to hear, see or discuss the future favoured by a significant proportion of the population.

But given its origins, is anyone surprised?
49

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/06/2008 11:27:29
40. Why don't Labour at Westminster bring it on? Why don't the Lib Dems? Why do Unionists keep mouthing off about a referendum instead of introducing one?
50

Daveunderwater,

b 22/06/2008 11:28:52
52

We can't have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty so there is no chance of a referendum on independence.

It's all about OIL
51

Daveunderwater,

Bennachie 22/06/2008 11:32:55
Westminster's unreasonable behaviour now encompasses threatening to withhold council tax benefit, trying to block local income tax, refusing to apply Barnett consequentials properly to prison spending and Olympic regeneration funding in London, and demanding payment from Tayside and Fife constabularies for security at the G8 and St Andrews summits.

The more that Westminster tries to lay down the law north of the border in clearly devolved areas, the greater the support there will be for independence and equality for Scotland. Bullies always get their comeuppance, and the reaction to this behaviour from London will be no different.

Whoever is running London Labour's campaign of aggression against the Scottish government, one thing is clear - it isn't anyone based in Scotland, or with a scintilla of understanding of Scotland.

Ten years on from the height of new Labour's power under Tony Blair, this latest campaign is a sad effort at control freakery. Unfortunately for them, it is all freakery and no control.

The new Labour project in Scotland is in its death throes. With a dithering leadership in London and an incoherent approach in Scotland, Labour is trying and failing to exert the iron grip it once had and took for granted - and it is totally uncomprehending of the loss of power and the new political reality it finds itself in.
52

Daveunderwater,

Bennachie 22/06/2008 11:40:01
SOARING oil prices would give an independent Scotland a £4.4 billion budget surplus, making it one of Europe's richest countries, according to a new study.

The surplus would allow Alex Salmond to maintain existing levels of public spending, while cutting corporation tax from 28% to 12.5%, reducing income tax by 5p in the pound and still having £2 billion every year to invest in a Norwegian-style oil fund to safeguard Scotland against a future decline in North Sea oil revenue.

The study, based on Treasury oil revenue forecasts and official spending figures, has calculated that, without money from the taxation of oil and gas, an independent Scotland would have an underlying deficit of £7.8billion. But when £12.2billion of oil and gas revenues are included, Scotland would have a surplus of more than £4billion.

The findings are likely to be seized on by Salmond to claim in a referendum campaign that an independent Scotland would be one of the wealthiest nations in Europe.

This would create problems for Wendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader, who has indicated that she supports a vote on separation.
53

Daveunderwater,

Bennachie 22/06/2008 11:43:59
'If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.'
Josef Goebbels. Hitler’s propaganda chief.
54

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 11:44:42
50

Why are you pretending your not a unionist? are you ashamed to be linked with this union I know I am.
The SNP clearly stated before the last election when they intended to hold a referendum if they won the election in their manifesto.
How many times has that little fact got to be pointed out to you before it sinks in?
Wendy not only wants to highjack the timetable but she wants to form the question as well and from the opposition benches why on earth should the SNP go along with that? for what possible reason should the SNP in government allow their manifesto policies to be controlled by the Labour party in opposition?
Would it make sense to you if they did?

55

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 11:48:27
40

London Labour were elected on a 35% minority vote so who should be dictating policy to them?
The Tories?
56

cataibh,

Over the Struie 22/06/2008 12:05:59
I have waited patiently for over fifty years for independence another two years does not upset me.
57

European Unionist,

Edinburgh 22/06/2008 12:12:46
The latest and improved GERS statistics are precisely the sort of evidence that the electorate needs to have before it if it is to be asked in a referendum whether Scotland should become an independent state. Time is now needed for these particular figures to be reflected upon, together with figures for the following year when they eventually become available, so that the people can give mature consideration to the question of whether the demonstrable practicality of Scottish independence within the European Union should lead them to select that as their preferred constitutional option.

Other relevant factors should be subject to equally mature consideration in due course, such as the prospect of evolving EU foreign-affairs and defence-structure responsibilities, which will no doubt eventually reveal to us that as the 21st century unfolds a small EU member state such as independent Scotland will not be burdened with a requirement to provide its own separate diplomatic representation all over the globe or indeed its own army, navy and air force.

The unseemly rush to an independence referendum now apparently earnestly desired by Scottish Labour would mean that much of the emerging pertinent information needed by the electorate could not be adequately taken into account. This might suit the Brit nats, but it would deny the Scottish electorate the opportunity to appreciate fully just how practicable and desirable independent Scottish membership of the European Union could be.

The Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland statistics for 2006/7, which show that Scotland is fiscally viable as an independent state, are a welcome contribution to the debate on whether British unionism, which arguably had something to commend it in the eighteenth century, should now be replaced in Scotland by a European unionism which recognizes Scotland's need and Scotland's right to be fully and appropriately represented in the supranational entity which is most important to us
58

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 12:14:20
63

Why didnt Gordon Brown hold an election when he took over from Blair? was he waiting for Alex Salmond to give him the go ahead do you think?
Are Labour waiting for the SNP to give them a date to hold a referendum on Europe?
59

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 12:15:17
65

And you think Gers are not party political then?
60

subrosa,

22/06/2008 12:15:56
This is just Wendy Alexander wanting to look like she cares. 'Bring it on'. Aye right. She's hoping that when the result does come then she can bleat 'I tried to force them to do one earlier to save all you lovely people the worry, stress and insecurity'. Who'll be listening? Nobody except perhaps Jackie Baillie.
61

Stuntman Mike,

22/06/2008 12:25:46
I've read the article and I fail to see how Wendy has locked herself into backing a referendum bill come what may, as the Nats' spin machine insists.

As Wendy's spokesman has made clear, there's no way she'll back the Nats' confusing legalese question. As far as I'm concerned, the Nats' question could have been invented by Mugabe himself (and I know that it's so worded for legal reasons, before you all start on me!)
62

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 12:27:49

Wendy says:
"I don't think it is in Scotland's interests to have this continuing uncertainty. We're going to have a referendum – get on – let the people of Scotland speak," she said."

What uncertainty? There will be a referendum on Independence in 2010 for certain! she is the one confusing the issue and causing the uncertainty by trying to change the timing and the question.
63

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 12:29:17
70

You mean it could have been worded by Mugabe after taking legal advice?
64

John S,

22/06/2008 12:35:49
Why doesn't Wendy propose a vote of no confidence in the Scottish Government if she is sure she will win ?
She knows she cannot propose a referendum to the SP, that is up to the present Scottish Government to decide when to put the proposal before the SP.
65

Stuntman Mike,

22/06/2008 12:39:42
#72: if the Nats' question is the only one that the lawyers will sanction, then quite frankly Salmond should drop the whole idea and leave Westminster to set a question (if they're so minded!)

I repeat: the Nats' question is an affront to democracy in this country and any result based on this question would have all the credibility of a poll in a banana republic. End of!
66

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 12:45:21
76

So its ok for the Westminster government to derive a question with or without legal advice but its not ok for the Scottish government to derive a question with legal advice?
And that is what passes for democracy in your wee mind is it?
67

Stuntman Mike,

22/06/2008 12:49:13
#77: you obviously don't know what you're talking about here. The SP can legally only hold a consultative referendum, hence the question. Westminster has complete control over constitutional questions and so can ask whatever question it wants. That's the legal position.
68

Publius,

Girvan 22/06/2008 12:54:16
#46 subrosa
You're missing the point. Nicola Sturgeon may not like hospital bugs (no-one does) but she seemed unaware of how to deal with them or when her civil servants found out about the outbreak. This makes her an inappropriate person to be a minister.

#47 MisterN
You're missing the point too. No party has an overall majority in the Scottish Parliament or is ever likely to. Labour is in denial. The SNP is trying to rule as though it does not need parliamentary approval for its actions. All parties have to learn that major legislation, such a referendum, can only pass with with the agreement of at least two parties.
69

brownlie,

22/06/2008 12:55:16
70 Stuntman

I see you live up to your name. Your somersault in the last paragraph was spectacular - nonsensical, but spectacular!
70

Stuntman Mike,

22/06/2008 12:57:42
#80: maybe I'm not tuned into Nat logic (god help me!) but what nonsensical somersault would that be, pray tell!
71

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 22/06/2008 13:01:09
I think the problem which is exascerbated by the bias in the press is that there a lack of maturity in the debate about independence.

All my life I've wanted independence but I know that people want a good debate on the subject. The fact that we are denied an informed debate is an argument against the union.

If unionists do not understand that they have to raise the standard they will lose.

It is now time for the Libs and the Tories to explain why Labour is backing a referedum but they are denying people that right.

Bring on 2010!
72

brownlie,

22/06/2008 13:03:12
81 Stuntman

You say that the question is legal and compare it with Mugable. Are you really suggesting that it is legal to murder your political opponents?
73

Stuntman Mike,

22/06/2008 13:06:34
#83 brownlie: the question may be legal, but it's doing no service to democracy if it just confuses the public at large. The Mugabe comparison reflects the attempt to confuse and nothing more.
74

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 13:09:44
78

So how does the question of control over constitutional questions get raised within a democracy then?
75

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 13:10:36
84

The question doesnt confuse me what do you find confusing about it?
76

brownlie,

22/06/2008 13:11:28
84 Stuntman

How arrogant to assume that you understand the question but the "public at large" would be confused.

Any comparison between Mugabe and current Scottish politicians, even those who accept illegal donations, is quite reprehensible.
77

Stuntman Mike,

22/06/2008 13:12:24
#86: it produces significantly higher support than any other question in opinion polls, so the public out there are all too obviously confused by it. This isn't rocket science!
78

Daveunderwater,

22/06/2008 13:13:16
http://vote-about.com/UK/gordon-brown/poll.php?ref=Brown+Dump+28
79

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 13:14:47
88

Are you a troll?
80

Stuntman Mike,

22/06/2008 13:18:14
#90: no. I'm an Edinburgh citizen with something to say and intent on Edinburgh regaining its Nat free zone status asap!
81

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 13:19:37
91

Na only a troll would post that comment at 88.
82

Stuntman Mike,

22/06/2008 13:22:38
#92: you're deflecting because my response at #88 is unanswerable. How does saying it like it is make me a troll? Have you seen me suggesting that the SNP should be outlawed or something, because that's what I would post if I were really a troll! Get out of your ivory tower and enter the real world!
83

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/06/2008 13:23:23
74. ­c­rap, I can write it
84

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 13:28:15
93

First off your comment at 88 is not in the form of a question therefore there is no answer required it is simply an opinion.
And secondly it doesnt make a bit of sense maybe you would like to clarify it with something that does?
85

Stuntman Mike,

22/06/2008 13:30:32
#95: why doesn't it make sense? There's a Nat friendly question and a "unionist" friendly question and I don't see how democracy in this country is being served by this. Enough of your sophistry already!
86

John S,

22/06/2008 13:33:01
#84:Straight forward question - Do you want the provisions of the Scotland Act 1978 to be put into effect ? yes or no.
Now the confused part at least 40% of the eligible electorate voted "yes" for the Act to be put into effect and that provision wasn't included on the ballot paper.
Now the result was Yes - 51.6%:No - 48.4% again straight forward but no instead 62.7% of those who voted would have to vote yes for the provisions to be put into effect.
The question the SNP is proposing to ask is straight forward when compared to what the Scottish voters were asked in 1979.
87

ThomasP,

22/06/2008 13:57:29
98 AM2,Scotland,UK

The SNP proposal is the only LEGAL way for the Scottish Government to ask the question without the support of Westminister.

Everyone in Scotland should know about this vote on Independence, everyone should know what the SNP stand for and I have full confidence that the Scots will understand that this is a vote to stay Politically linked to London.
88

ThomasP,

22/06/2008 14:20:39
100 AM2,Scotland,UK

Attempt would imply that the Scottish Gov would try to get Independence but may not be successful.

In otherwords the United KIngdom Gov may try harder to ensure Scotland stays within the United Kingdom and go against the will of the people.

At the end of the day the Unionists do claim to have a majority for the Union why should they be afraid of loosing 10% of the vote? Because according to the Unionists only 1 third support Independence?

Unless they are underestimating the support for Independence so the little points like the wording DO matter?
89

ThomasP,

22/06/2008 14:25:20
Also,

Why did they write "UK" instead of the positive, human connotations of "United Kingdom"?

Why not just "British Government"?

Scotland would leave the United Kingdom. Britain only consists of Scotland, England and Wales but we would also leave the Political Union with Northern Ireland.

Hence, written on your password 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland'
90

ThomasP,

22/06/2008 14:28:29
103 AM2,Scotland,UK

Again, attempt only aplies that they would try. However if a majority voted for Independence then they would expect the Government to get Independence.

Your new paragraph neglects Northern Ireland. Britain does not consist of Northern Ireland.

"AND THE REMAINDER OF BRITAIN BECOME TWO SEPARATE STATES."

And Northern Ireland?


91

,

22/06/2008 14:29:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
92

ThomasP,

22/06/2008 14:33:08
105 AM2,Scotland,UK

And if the talks would fail then should Britain have a mandate to Govern Scotland despite a majority not wanting to be apart of Britain?

Personally if the Unionists are wanting to change the wording then they must be desperate for votes.

It shows that the arguments for the Union is not strong enough that they must have it their way.
93

subrosa,

22/06/2008 14:37:09
# 79 Publius

No I'm not missing the point. I responded directly to your comments. Labour are fully aware they are on a hide into nothing with their allegations that the Health Secretary had information and lies about it. But of course they can't break out of their mould of 'repeat a lie often enough and people will believe it'.

Unfortunately such behaviour is now seen for what it is - scaremongering and pathetic.

If the foul-mouthed MSP Jackie Baillie was so concerned about the outbreak in a hospital in her constituency, why didn't she take immediate action? She must have read the newspaper which informed Nicola Sturgeon. Surely she made it a matter of urgency to find out what was happening as her constituents representative?

No, what she did was make it a political issue. Such dreadful superbugs should not be a political issue - these problems are a matter of public health and should be treated as such by every politician.
94

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 22/06/2008 15:11:15
#50 "Just listen to SNP excuses for delaying this referendum!

What do we want? Independence!
When do we want it? Er, not just now, pal, eh?"


Allow me to rephrase that for you in a slightly less embarrassingly stupid manner:

"What do we want? Independence!
When do we want it? As soon as possible, therefore we'll hold the vote when we think we have the best chance of winning it, because we're not f*cking stupid."
95

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 15:15:16
96

How is the question NAT friendly? its clear and to the point what else do you need? a Loaded Labour derived question without even a mention of an Independence option?
96

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 15:18:08
98

Are you suggesting that nothing should be done anywhere if there is an opposite view?
97

ThomasP,

22/06/2008 15:18:42
@111

The SNP do not have an excuse for not holding a vote on Independence now.

However, since they were voted into power on their manifesto promise that includes that they would propose a Bill in 2010 on a referendum then why should they break it?
98

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 22/06/2008 15:18:45
AM2

This is where you're hiding.

I think the Sunday Herald posters are waiting for a response after your assertions were shot down. A link to help you....

http://www.sundayherald.com/business/businessnews/display.var.2356681.0.opening_up_the_books_on_the_true_state_of_scottish_finances.php
99

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 15:22:12
100

Did Tony Blair tell us he was going to "attempt" to win the wars in Afganistan and Iraq?
Is the UK government telling us that they are "attempting" to win the war on terror?
Are they telling us they are "attempting" to raise our taxes?
Are they telling us they are "attempting" to run the country?
Do you ever tell us youre going to "attempt" a proper arguement?
100

Florence,

Edinburgh 22/06/2008 15:28:11
91 STUNTMENT: Up the creek without a paddle, then?
101

Florence,

Edinburgh 22/06/2008 15:28:55
Error re 91 - should read STUNTMAN
102

Edward,

22/06/2008 16:17:55
#1087 AM"
as ever pathtic
You need reminding that:
1. Westminster is the seat of the United Kingdom Government
2. The United Kingdom consists solely of England and Scotland, these are the TWO Kingdoms that are currently United to form a union, which has been in exitance since 1707
Wales is NOT a kingdom but a Princepality of England
Northern Ireland is NOT a Kingdom, it is a province of the United Kingdom

The Referendum question is spot on and legal in which it states 'The Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an Independent State'
Its not ambigious its clear!
Once Independence is acheived, the sitting Scottish MP's will be required to resign and leave Westminster. The remaining members of Westminster will then formulate a new Parliament for England and Northern Ireland. (Technically Northern Ireland could remain with England or could feasably join Scotland as Northern Irelands position is post act of union)
The suggestion that negotiations between the Scottish Government and who ever is the UK Government of the day will not be as difficult as some make out. If the referendum gives an unqualified yes to negototaition, then it would be a foolish attempt by the English to be awkeward as the eyes of the world would be watching to see how the so called cradle of democracy performs.
One interesting point to ponder is who would represent the 'UK Government' after all by the very nature, no Scottish MP could participate on behald of the UK Government, but would be expected to assist and advise the Scottish Government, after all we are talking about the will of the people for the people by the people and a peoples self determination
103

The wilkman,

Isle of Skye 22/06/2008 16:26:03
"""""
47
MisterN,
Scotland 22/06/2008 11:09:48
40

So by your logic the SNP cant call the referendum timetable but its ok for the opposition parties to call it? whats the point of winning an election then?
"""""""

If the SNP had "won the election" then it could dictate the timetable of course. But they didn't win it, no party won it. All sides in this discussion are having a job getting their heads round the consequences of PR - probably no party will ever again "win the election" in Holyrood. All decisions will be made by coalitions (long-term or momentary) of parties.

Ergo, if the SNP won't let a referendum be held till just before the next Holyrood election then the Unionist parties will probably vote it down on the grounds that there might as well be a new election first and that the referendum can be held after it (and that Labour won't oppose it then).

If you listen to what Wendy is actually saying it's that she doesn't think this referendum should be left to near the end of this Holyrood parliamentary term.
104

Traquir , Alba,

22/06/2008 16:29:36
So the Unionistas think this U-turn on a series
of U-turns are the tactics of a political genius.
I guess they also thought that when Gordon
Brown prepared the entire country
for a general election then bottled out
when he thought he would lose was
another act of genius. Would you
believe it a politician wanting to hold
an election when it most likely he will
win :)

The SNP has simply (with no u-turns)
repeated that its aim is to keep its manifesto
promise to present a referendum to
the Scottish parliament in 2010.

So the elected Scottish Government
wants to hold an election at the time
of their choosing as outlined in their
manifesto. Would the chances of
a yes vote be better in two years time
with the following events unfolding:

. Much more educational information is
being made available to the Scottish
people such as another two
years of GERS surplus reports and
the Scottish people learn,
apparently not via the Scottish papers
though, how much Scottish oil is
still in the ground and just how long
it will last, and just how it could
be used to benefit Scotland first and
foremost.
. Another two years of the Labour circus
with it's unprecedented unpopularity figures,
massively declining membership and
potentially complete bankruptcy.
. The high likelihood that within two
years Scotland will have another
Conservative Government imposed on it.

Yep, I think a yes vote will be much
more likely in 2010 and if the Unionistas
were not completely sycophantic hypocrites
they would admit it to.
Perhaps, just perhaps this is why Wendy and
the Unionistas are ordering the
Scottish Government to have the
referendum as earlier as possible :)
It has nothing to do with putting
the Scottish people first and foremost, but
rather it is just cheap and somewhat
colonial political maneuvering.
I am sure the whole herd of Unionistas
are in a headless chicken style blind panic
that their dream of the Union being a
sacrosanct en
105

Traquir , Alba,

22/06/2008 16:30:01
cont.

Yep, I think a yes vote will be much
more likely in 2010 and if the Unionistas
were not completely sycophantic hypocrites
they would admit it to.
Perhaps, just perhaps this is why Wendy and
the Unionistas are ordering the
Scottish Government to have the
referendum as earlier as possible :)
It has nothing to do with putting
the Scottish people first and foremost, but
rather it is just cheap and somewhat
colonial political maneuvering.
I am sure the whole herd of Unionistas
are in a headless chicken style blind panic
that their dream of the Union being a
sacrosanct entity whose destiny is to
shine in perpetuity is exposed as a
complete sham.

Saor Alba
106

Nikostratos,

22/06/2008 16:36:21
#122

There i was daydreaming "of the Union being a
sacrosanct entity whose destiny is to shine in perpetuity" being really, really happy.
And then i read your post still what with those blinkers and watching the rest of the unionist herd..I am sure everything will be alright in the end...
107

willyam7,

south lanarkshire. 22/06/2008 16:54:56
for wendy the gob,
its unfair to cose this uncertainty hear so why dont we just make it 2, referendum,s 2, for the price of 1, lisbon treaty springs to mine after all it is a blue labour manifesto promiseor is this just another lie and false promise the people of scotland expect both referendums the S,N,P, have promises theres in 2010 when is blue labour going to deliver there promised lisbon treaty manifesto promise.
108

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 22/06/2008 17:01:37
I'm sure the last thintg Al Gordi wants to hear is he word "referendum" again following the Irish vote.

You can just visualise him clenching his fists and scowling even more than usual. He'll no doubt be saying to Wendy, "What is it about the word 'no' that you don't understand?".
109

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 17:11:33
120

Silly me I thought the SNP formed a government within the Scottish Parliament imagine that?
Well that could happen then again maybe it wont sounds a bit like wishful thinking to me in place of fact again. That certainly shows your unionist credentials.
And who cares what Wendy wants or thinks? she isnt First Minister so the decision isnt hers to make.
110

Jimmy the Pie,

22/06/2008 17:16:37
I see there is a book about Glasgow Council receiving rave reviews. Its called Halls Of Infamy, and blows the lid on some more New Labour Sleaze sleaze!!
There is a small article in this site but, surprise, surprise we can't comment on it!!

Will the Hootsmon serialise it???

Bound to be a better buy than Cherie or Vomit Prescott's offerings.

It's online so I'll just away and see if I can find it.
111

Mike555,

22/06/2008 17:21:53
Why won't rubber lips Wendy shout about the really important referendum we should have had regarding the Lisbon treaty.

Also, when you look behind Wendy at the to$$ers sitting behind her in parliament it's no surprise Scottish Liebor are bereft of ideas.
112

Traquir , Alba,

22/06/2008 17:25:45
127 Jimmy the Pie

Excellent link for the Halls Of Infamy.
Scotland has been defacto a one party
state for over 50 years with Labour which
is unprecedented in Western Europe. I am sure
this will just be the tip of whole pile of
manure of corruption.
113

Jimmy the Pie,

22/06/2008 17:33:02
As soon as anyone threatens legal action, you know there is truth to the story.

I can't find it yet online but boy am I going to try!!!

I do hope the Polis take a close look at the whole rotten corrupt circus that is Glasgow Council.

Red Wendy will no doubt blame the SNP!!!! ;-)
114

Jimmy the Pie,

22/06/2008 17:43:53
Halls of Infamy by James MacDonald.

Can anyone tell where I can buy a copy of this book??

Could be a bestseller with the right publicity!!
115

The wilkman,

Isle of Skye 22/06/2008 18:06:11
""""""
126
MisterN,
Scotland 22/06/2008 17:11:33
120

Silly me I thought the SNP formed a government within the Scottish Parliament imagine that?
Well that could happen then again maybe it wont sounds a bit like wishful thinking to me in place of fact again. That certainly shows your unionist credentials.
And who cares what Wendy wants or thinks? she isnt First Minister so the decision isnt hers to make.
""""""

Yes, it is silly you, I'm afraid. The SNP form a minority government. They can only get measures through with the support or aquiescence of several MSPs who are not SNP members. Therefore, if Labour or the Tories or the Lib Dems or at least some of them don't go along with it there won't be a referendum in 2010.

Alex is well aware of that. His calculation is that having a referendum voted down just before a Holyrood election will get the SNP more votes (maybe enough to win a vote on a referendum after the election even). This is tactical calculation. Wendy's tactical calculation is that by demanding one now (on the grounds that there's no need for one just before a Holyrood election) she takes some of the wind out of those sails.

It's politics. Alex is better at it. And, the Labour Party is led by a hopeless case who has his own reasons for not going along with Wendy's strategy. This "Wendy's made another U-turn" stuff is just tactical too - Wendy and Alex and their backers are 'spinning', trying to get the public to see things their way.

As for "my Unionist credentials", grow up. I've voted SNP or Green in most elections for many years, and always thought that Scotland could be independent and that I'd like to see it tried. But being pro-independence doesn't mean that one has to lose the ability to think straight!
116

lulach mac gille coemgain,

22/06/2008 19:00:34
I merely make this comment to aid the Scotsman publications with a statistical overview of the potential outcome . . .

Now or Then - I will vote for Independence !
117

Nikostratos,

22/06/2008 19:17:28
#131 Jimmy the #####

Just bend over and look up your ar#e Jimmy it'll be up there Oh and by the way the little pea sized thing next to it that'll be your brain.....
118

Jimmy the Pie,

22/06/2008 19:35:18
#134 Niko

Do you never tire of coming onto these forums and being continually and utterly humiliated?

You must have a fairly thick skin or are just thick.

Never mind, with an SNP government in power, you can rest assured that there will always be first class psychiatric care avilable for you.

Get well soon. ;-)

119

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 22/06/2008 19:42:21
#100 YOU SAID: "Anyway, Scottish "Government"? That wording has no legal validity."

Would you please provide the thinking behind that latest piece of Brit Nat fantasy?

Can you tell us which law prevents this validity in Brit Nat land?

Can you please answer my question from Friday. I know you have seen it so please be good enough to furnish a reply when you, "check back."

52
HEN BROON 5,
ALBA being held back by the UK 20/06/2008 19:03:06
AM2 I would appreciate your opinion on the censoring on this forum. In particular any criticism of your self/ kimba/ Highland Mighty/ and one or two others. Why is it that these posts criticising you and the other monikers are removed and the poster moderated?

I notice that the blue printed box saying reason for removal has been taken away. Do you not think it would be a good idea for the person removing posts to give the reason for it?

Someone did at some time.

Do you not think that giving a reason for removal would help people in there comments and help to dispel the widely held opinion that this forum and the dead tree copy is nothing more than a unionist mouth piece?

I would really appreciate an answer instead of just having this post taken down.
120

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 22/06/2008 19:43:16
Ah excellent timing I await my reply AM2.
121

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 22/06/2008 19:46:12
http://tinyurl.com/5nzsv3



LOL!!!!!!!CAUGHT AGAIN
122

,

22/06/2008 19:51:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
123

Jimmy the Pie,

22/06/2008 20:02:39
#142 Traquir.

Superb. Thanks very much for the link. My printer is on the first of 50 copies. Just hope the ink lasts!!!

I've saved it and distributed to all my Nat friends.
There's a lot of mileage in this one!!!

tinyurl.com/5mwsmv
124

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/06/2008 20:04:56
143. AM2

the explanation is that GERs had previously, innaccurately, included English justice expenditure, Dounreay decommissioning costs and other items as "Scottish" expenditure and underestimated Scottish revenues.....now these have been corrected by government economists, their is a current account surplus, even assuming the same low % of north sea oil revenues...
125

Traquir , Alba,

22/06/2008 20:06:43

143 AM2, Scotland

Hello again sir, I thought you had gone off
to bed since you disappeared from the Sunday
Herald thread on GERS - see tinyurl.com/6qbnbv

You do realize this not a GERS thread, do try
and keep on topic or you will be censored :)
126

Jimmy the Pie,

22/06/2008 20:06:48
AM2

Will you be staying in Scotland after independence??

There could be a job for you as National Statistician!
127

Traquir , Alba,

22/06/2008 20:10:39
149 AM2,Scotland

We just think so alike - scary :)
128

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/06/2008 20:16:04
151. Top gear? Reverse gear perhaps
129

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 22/06/2008 20:19:12
You said that Scottish Government has no legal validity, I asked you to give me a reference to the legal document or law that prevents us from calling our government Scottish. Officialy the title is Scottish Goverment made so by the law of Scotland. If we have acted illegaly then surely we will be brought to account in the highest courts of Europe or even the UN. These fine people who gave us devolution. Scotland has a government and it is SNP, swallow it, even you cannot spin that one.


You have been foraging into the Herald again what a masochist you are. Skewered filleted smoked and boxed once more. No wonder you only appear there, when ordered to do so.

Why on earth do you imagine that any thing you post has any credibility when the article on the Sunday Herald is produced by Jim and Margaret Cuthbert who are a statistician and economist respectively, who work in research and consultancy. You on the other hand are an anonymous unionist aparatchik, who as far as I am concerned has not one qualification other than a deftness with Ctrl. C and Ctrl. V. And selective recall.

You are consistently skewered and humiliated on here and every forum you appear on for your blatant Unionist propaganda and rhetoric, which has become a paranoid obsession. You are not only driving reasonable people from these forums but also into the ranks of the Scottish Independence brigades, usually the SNP or Greens. The figures on membership confirm that. For that you do make me very happy thank you.


ALBA GU BRATH.
130

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 22/06/2008 20:40:20
#155. Was for AM2 who is apparently fantasising over oil burning macho machines. Nuff said.
131

WL,

livingston 22/06/2008 21:02:09
Why this sudden hurry for a referendum on Scottish independence by Wendy of the Unionist Labour Party? When this Unionist Labour Party was in power in Holyrood they did not do anything about it; that was their chance.
132

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 21:09:48
132

ability to Think straight? or to think wishfully? do you actually know the difference? a referendum is comming before or after the next election makes no difference what matters is the result.
The SNP got a budget through on their minority and several of their election promises I think they know well enough how to play the minority government role better than the opposition dont you?
All Labour the Libs and the Tories have to do to ensure an SNP victory is to be themselves.
Now thats what you call thinking straight have a go.
133

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 21:15:53
141

Never mind the Scotland act its the act of union which entitles the Scottish government to call itself the Scottish government and not the Scottish executive. It was the act of union which merged the Scottish Parliament with Westminster. Now the Parliaments are no longer merged then the party in control of the no longer merged Scottish Parliament is of course the Scottish Government of that Parliament or is it not the Scottish Parliament at all?
134

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 21:17:21
139

GERS is always subject to political interference it can in no way describe itself as independent from party politics.
135

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 21:19:12
158

See 160. Another one who tries to pass off wishfull thinking as facts.
136

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 23:27:05
163

No if they were still merged they would still be in Westminster and not in both Westminster and Edinburgh.
Devolved powers still means a seperation of the union of Parliaments otherwise where do you send the devolved powers to?
137

john z,

edinburgh 22/06/2008 23:39:04
No.40, Publius

I'm sorry, you have made the same mistake Wendy did. In the Scottish Parliament, last year the Government tabled their draft referendum proposals. Under Parliamentary rules, no other party or group can introduce legislation on the same issue, that has already been previously introduced even in draft form by the government. The SNP introduced the legislation, and there is b@gger all labour can do about it. That's what being in opposition means.

This means, the referendum will happen when the government decides, and Wendy can shout and scream and stamp her feet, but sadly she cannot change this. The daft girlie wendy is an utter clown.

Incidentally, she was told this last time around. Doh!
138

john z,

edinburgh 22/06/2008 23:45:22
Oh and for all the dimwits, it is the prerogative of the ruling executive to call itself Scottish Government if it so wishes, just as is done at Westminster. Comments otherwise on this board are just piffle.
139

MisterN,

Scotland 23/06/2008 10:07:03
172

The Scottish Parliament has reopened after 300 years did you no see the ceremony? its the same Parliament which closed in 1707 and merged with Westminster.
That particular merger has now been reversed and the Scottish Government has been reformed within its original parliament.
To suggest anything else would mean that the act of union is not a union of equal nations at all but an act of annexation and we both know that cant be true dont we?
140

Brianwci,

Edinburgh 23/06/2008 11:48:30
I just love all these arguments between nats and unionists. It's a bit like holiday makers squabling on a faraway beach about whose towels were on which deckchairs without realising an on coming tsunami will make their arguments completely meaningless.

The tsunami in this case being the rising price of oil. Yes we've been here before and oil prices have sunk back to more manageable levels, but this is totally different and it's all to Scotland's advantage and to the unionist's disadvantage.

Oil will never again fall below $100 a barrel, indeed, we will all be very lucky if it levels out between $130 and $150 a barrel.

Why? Supply and demand. Demand has never been higher thanks to the industrialisation of China and india not to mention Vietnam and to a lesser extent other Asian countries.

And this will remain the case for decades to come until other sources of power are in place to completely replace oil and gas.

Oil and gas revenues will produce at minimum 50% more than Scotland currently needs at present. This will be self evident by 2010. The referendum will produce a YES vote, negotiations will lead to independence.

AM2, Highland mighty et al will have to move onto another topic.....actually, we all will.
141

Brian M,

Edinburgh 23/06/2008 12:28:37
Labour are sinking fast
142

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 23/06/2008 14:12:39
Bendy said:

"In a message to Salmond, she added: "We shouldn't be leaving it until the last few months (of the Scottish Parliament's four-year term] – get on with it."

Why not?
143

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 23/06/2008 14:13:20
Are the last few months just for putting on the holiday head?
144

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 23/06/2008 14:15:34
By spouting this nonsense, Wendy is doing herself and her party a major disservice credibility wise. Who is advising her?

It is clear that she can't deliver her side of this bluff without consent from Paw Broon.
145

Talorthane,

23/06/2008 14:40:17
"Alexander has told friends her support is aimed at preventing Salmond from being able to accuse Labour of preventing Scots from having their say on independence. She feared that, had Labour continued to oppose the vote, Salmond would have used their position to gain further support for the SNP in the 2011 Scottish elections."

Now, this is presented as if it is an insight into Wendy Alexander's strategic mind. As if she had looked beyond the tactics of the SNP, identified risks that were not obvious to those who would question her tactics, and had then taken a course of action that was unforeseen, courageous or even brilliant.

However, we must ask how she worked all of this out, if we are to credit her with such genius.

How did she work this out?

Because Alex Salmond told her and everyone else in the country that this is what would happen!
146

,

23/06/2008 15:26:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
147

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 23/06/2008 16:25:31
She just needs to get her back to front jacket on again and have her meds then go into the soft room for a wee play at bouncing off the walls. Where is this guy Simon Pia? IS he advising her or has he already quit? If he is advising her is she listening and if she is why does she not just tell him to consider another career?

I think I'd vote for the Monster Raving Loony Party or Miss Great Britain long before my x would go down against Wendy's name.
148

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 23/06/2008 18:30:07
#158. Such predictable petulance. Equal to the petulance displayed by Blair who has yet to congratulate Alex Salmond on forming the Scottish Goverment, after his magnificent and historic victory in May 07. And also his manic depressive successor, the Toom Tabbard Broon, who took a month to swallow his gorge and speak to him.

If this act of pettiness and childish malevolence had been perpetrated against any other nation it would have sparked international condemnation and outrage.

Thank God we shall soon be free of the Brit Nat fascists.

ALBA GU BRATH.
149

Highland Mighty,

23/06/2008 22:33:41
183. Still clinging to your ridiculous fantasy that this 'independence' is going to happen?

Your beloved Leader has just humiliated all the nats and their claims in this GERS. Remeber, this report was signed off by both Him and the inept Swinney!:
1. "Scotland subsidises the UK" - WRONG! Holyrood receives an extra £10bn a year on top of taxes collected = a third of the total budget!
2. Scotland subsidises London - WRONG!
3. Scotland is financially worse off in the UK - WRONG!
4. 'The Great Deception' is an "accurate analysis" (LOL!) - WRONG! This amateur blog 'proved' a Scottish surplus when it has always been a multi-billion deficit.
5. Scotland is not getting its fair share of oil proceeds - WRONG! Even with all our share, Holyrood STILL falls billions short.
6. Scotland produces 95% of UK oil - WRONG! Now proven to be 83%. Again, this report was signed off by Salmond/Swinney.

All discredited and blown away! Every single nationalist lie superbly exposed by none other than Salmond Himself!

Then there's:
1. ZERO change in support for independence ("25%" a year ago, "19%/25%" in the last poll, Salmond admitting its a "quarter of the population")
2. ZERO interest in the national conversation (only 1% of the population have even looked at it, less than 0.001% have bothered to post anything!)
3. ZERO interest in any of the petitions....

And the big beautiful cherry on the icing: Salmond making himself look totally ridiculous claiming a small 'surplus'......by simply ignoring BILLIONS in spending!

The SNP and the nationalists' credibility atomised by Salmond himself. (I just love saying that!)

This is a fun week!
150

MisterN,

Scotland 23/06/2008 22:46:07
184

And all of it according to the unionist fed watered and nutured so called press.
Give it a rest you convince nobody you have already established you are willing to troll any rubbish given to you by the opposition. You should have been a bit more subjective in your previous postings now you only sound like a joke a bad one at that.
Same tripe different day.
I will believe it when I hear it from Salmond himself and not second hand from the Labour spin machine.
151

Highland Mighty,

23/06/2008 23:53:25
185. "I will believe it when I hear it from Salmond himself"

My source? GERS - signed off by both Salmond and Swinney.

(Quite why you only believe one of Holyrood's more prolific liars.......)
152

,

24/06/2008 21:08:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
153

that effin wee nyaff Davie,

EU 25/06/2008 18:19:58
@Highland Mighty
Why the quotation marks round "independence" ?
And why "ridiculous fantasy" ?
These are your opinions but you state them as fact.
I for one happen to believe that Scotland will be an independent state quite soon.
Norway was under the Swedes for 2 centuries, but in the end got rid of them. Mind you, I shouldn't compare the Scots to the Norwegians. The latter have infinitely more guts and self-esteem. Even though there's a lot of Norwegian genes in the Scots. Don't know what went wrong there. Well, actually I do have opinions on this but I'd best keep them to myself.
Many of the comments posted here and on like forums are irrelevant balderdash and piffle. As if anybody cared who said what, and what idiots the others are made out to be, and what ulterior motives the posters attribute to this or that politician. What matters is solely whether there is a majority who want independence.


 

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