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Salmond's economic elite target red tape

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"We have gathered some of the best minds"
Published Date:
22 September 2007
SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT EDITOR
A BLUEPRINT for simplifying Scotland's bureaucratic planning system is to be drawn up by the First Minister's new council of economic advisers, which met for the first time yesterday.
An investigation into planning emerged as a key early priority for the high-powered team of economists and business leaders appointed by Alex Salmond to advise him on growing Scotland's economy.

Mr Salmond yesterday hailed the all-day gathering in Edinburgh as "inspiring".

The First Minister said the council would have a key role to play in informing the Scottish Government's pledge to raise growth rates north of the Border to those in the UK as a whole.

Sources close to council last night said that the nine of the 11-member body who attended had spent most of the day studying facts about Scotland's economy, including labour force participation, productivity and population.

However, the meeting also had a special presentation by Jim Mackinnon, the Scottish Government's Chief Planner, who outlined the current issues over planning which many in the business world believe holds up economic development.

Last night a source close to the process said: "This was very much a first meeting with a long look at the statistics and thoughts on what kinds of information will be required in the future.

"Planning was an important part of that and it is something they are sure to return to soon."

Speaking after the meeting Mr Salmond said: "My belief that we have gathered some of the best minds to focus on achieving greater economic success for Scotland has been confirmed by the dynamic exchange of ideas that has taken place today."

The council is chaired by former Royal Bank of Scotland chief executive and chairman Sir George Mathewson, who backed the SNP in the Holyrood election campaign.

Yesterday it was confirmed that the council will have quarterly meetings, with minutes to be published two weeks later.

Mr Salmond said that publication would "keep everyone with an interest in improving Scotland's economic performance informed of the areas under discussion".

The council will also publish an annual report, providing an expert commentary on the Scottish economy.

Speaking before the meeting, Sir George said he hoped the new body would provide the best possible advice.

In a radio interview, he said: "I would hope that we are able to provide, from a very wide range of experience and background, the best economic advice possible to the First Minister.

"It is not by any means our job to make decisions, that's for the politicians, but we would hope to be able to think and consider the economic issues that face Scotland and try and suggest some ways forward."

He said that in recent years the Scottish economy had underperformed in relation to the rest of the UK

, adding it was "possible" to have a growth rate equal to the UK's within four years, but that he was "not prepared to say at this point in time how we would do it".

Derek Brownlee, the Conservative finance spokesman, said: "The council is made up of some very respected figures in the world of economics and there is a real opportunity here to deliver some fresh, new ideas for Scotland.

"However, the new minority government must be receptive to fresh thinking that might not necessarily fit in with the SNP's independence agenda."

Nicol Stephen, the Liberal Democrat leader, called for the council to be allowed to consider the forthcoming spending review, which will allocate £90 billion of public money over three years.

A Scottish Government spokesman said that the role of the council was "to advise on growing the economy". Ministers were accountable to parliament for spending decisions and budget process.

COUNCIL OF ADVISERS


Jennifer Steedman
Head of analytical service, Scottish Government

Prof John Kay
Fellow of St John's College, Oxford

Crawford Beveridge
Executive vice-president and chairman of Sun Microsystems in Europe, Middle East and Africa

Robert Smith
Chairman of Weir Group and Scottish & Southern Energy. Chairs the Smith Group.

Jennifer Erickson
Special adviser to the First Minister

Prof Alex Kemp
Professor of petroleum economics at the University of Aberdeen

Alex Salmond
First Minister

Sir George Mathewson
Chief executive and then chairman of the Royal Bank of Scotland

Prof Frances Ruane
Director of Ireland's Economic and Social Research Institute

Jim McColl
Chairman and chief executive of Clyde Blowers.

Prof James Mirrlees
Professor emeritus at Cambridge University and professor-at-large at the Chinese University, Hong Kong

John Swinney
Cabinet Secretary for finance and sustainable growth

Andrew Goudie
Chief economic adviser to the Scottish Government

Prof Andrew Hughes Hallett
Professor of economics and public policy at George Mason University in the US and visiting Professor of Economics at St Andrews University

Two members of the team were not at yesterday's meeting:

Finn Kydland
Henley Professor of Economics at the University of California, Santa Barbara

Frances Cairncross
Rector of Exeter College, Oxford

Page 1 of 1

 
1

Everyman,

21/09/2007 23:20:21

"Sources close to council last night said that the nine of the 11-member body who attended had spent most of the day studying facts about Scotland's economy, including labour force participation, productivity and population."

This sounds ominous, facts and data should be studied before meeting so that it can be productive.

Given the meeting was to reduce red tape, this is rather sad that it was badly run.

This appears to be more pointless drivel from Alex Salmond regretably. As has been noted by others before, he seems to be setting up a group of 'names' to give him the answers he wants. I can see his beedy eyes popping out his head as he influences the group as they interpret the facts for the first time on the day.

2

,

21/09/2007 23:27:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
3

The Strategist,

21/09/2007 23:39:41

1

Nonsense.... Providing an up to date report of a situation is a given at any form of strategy type meeting. I should know because I've run dozens of them.

As to your silly little comment that Alex Salmond has set up a group of "names" to get the answers he wants is insulting to those who have agreed to become members of this group. Each I would suggest is very much their own man or woman.

4

george alexander,

north lanarkshire 21/09/2007 23:46:40

Post number 1 is the usual troll like garbage that so infests this place.

Take this for example:
"This sounds ominous, facts and data should be studied before meeting so that it can be productive.

Given the meeting was to reduce red tape, this is rather sad that it was badly run. "

Unadulterated meaningless tripe from a knucklehead with absolutely no idea how the meeting was run nor the dynamic within. How does this fool know what was studied and by whom prior to this meeting?

"planning emerged as a key early priority".....the key word here is EMERGED. The meeting was to determine priorities and what information would be needed in future.

5

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta , CA 22/09/2007 00:33:19

Who ever took this wide angle shot , did not use a NIKON wide angle lens.

It rates a 3 out of a 1 to 10 for quality and definition.


Next time try harder

GC

my hobbies .
(photography , surfing, travel and reading). and not in that order.

6

Everyman,

22/09/2007 00:34:30

#4

"How does this fool know what was studied and by whom prior to this meeting?"

I know because a source close to the council reported that in the article. And that is also what I was discussing, as I am perfectly entitled to do so.

I suggest you are an obnoxious and rude individual who has not read the terms for posting on this forum and shows a rather distasteful disregard for rights to freedom of speech and expression.

It is quite clear that "facts" are data and that the purpose of the group is to provide information not data. It stands to reason the data should be interpreted for the first time free from political influence.

It is very worrying Alex Salmond is steering the group, he is therefore giving himself advice. Waste of time.

7

Everyman,

22/09/2007 00:38:21

#3

You will please note that man of the men there supported the SNPs campaign. Therefore, it stands to reason the SNP is just setting up an internal yes man to give the illusion to the uneducated and unarticulate that it was somehow an independant decision.

This group is dominated by the SNP, it is in no way giving independent and impartial advice to Scotland. There is a blatant conflict of interest.

8

Guga II,

Rockall 22/09/2007 00:53:50

#5 Galactic Cannonball. Where have you been hiding? We've been missing your insightful comments.

9

Guga II,

Rockall 22/09/2007 00:54:32

Did I spell the "sight" bit correctly?

10

Guga II,

Rockall 22/09/2007 00:57:38

Back to the topic. A good place to start would certainly be to get rid of red tape. the country is drowning in red tape, and smothering on multiple forms, especially in relation to EC rules and regulations.

Getting rid of as much of that as possible would save the country, and individual businessmen, a fortune.

Let's have a bonfire of red tape and forms, to be followed by a raging inferno of Quangos.

11

Navvy,

22/09/2007 01:21:30

This looks like a very useful attempt at a broader and morinspired look at policies which could set Scotland on a better economic road. The committee includes people from the real world, RBS and Weirs for example

12

kofk,

the world 22/09/2007 03:23:43

midwinter has only been employed to stifle snp aspirations,his ilinformed spinning turbulant nonsense is a usual nonentity, and an insult to people who are making the effort to try and make this country better,
i think there for i am,
why do some people believe its wrong to have independent thoughts for Scotland?

13

kofk,

the world 22/09/2007 04:09:53

could i remind everybody , that nobodys data base has hold of the future, am2 is history, thank goodness

14

Gregorf,

22/09/2007 04:36:51

The only stats that were ever relevant to the Labour party were those that kept Scotland poor and largely ignorant.

The reason that many of the above participants have excelled is because they are some of the best inquisitive minds there are. They did not excel because they were yes men. It just shows how ignorant some unionists are that they believe Professors of Oxford and Cambridge are yes men.

15

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA 22/09/2007 04:41:13

8. Guga II, Rockall

I have not been hiding,

I went on trip with friends to Chongquip City, to see Three Georges Dam, on the Yantgze River.

These Chinese cities all have one thing in common, pollution and humidity.
But great scenery outside this city.

And the TGD dam makes the US Hoover dam look like a Tonka toy.

We had a problem with out Chinese "F' Visa's. And Chinese customs agents are very suspicious.

You cannot argue with them, but our interpreter saved our as*es.

Tip , never use the word Democracy to them...

I maybe moving to the East coast to The Village (Greenwich Village) , my mother owns a property there.

No more CHINA for me after this last trip,

GC

16

kofk,

the world 22/09/2007 04:57:50

steady, im sure they can all think for themselves,
were all jock tamsons bairns, once they realise things can actually get better by doing things properly they will understand.

17

kofk,

the world 22/09/2007 05:08:23

good reason for all the worlds nations supporting the u. n.

18

Richardinho,

22/09/2007 05:31:18

notice that minutes are to be published in a couple of weeks.
This was another labour scare that they weren't going to be.

19

A.Mackenzie.,

USA 22/09/2007 05:45:35

StAndrews day should be changed to June 24.

20

Alan Reid,

NZ 22/09/2007 05:53:43

Another good move by the SNP.
It's pity the last Scottish Goverment did not have the same vision. But hang on, London was calling the shots, sorry I keep forgetting.
Everyman you are rather sad.

21

James,

Dundee 22/09/2007 06:00:56

#1 Instead......

Lets have a commmitee staffed by Social workers, teachers and fluffed up Lab Cooncillors, minutes rubber stamped by some junior Whitehall minion, and filed under 'chippy Jocks'.

Oh yes, that's what we've had for the last n+1 years (where n=numpty Labour MSPs).

Perfectly good arrangement, which delivered mediocrity and stagnation, at best.

22

Frank O,

22/09/2007 06:30:30

cutting red tape? It took 12 advisers to come up with that one idea?

When I saw that picture, the song from Monty Python and the Holy Grail, "We're knights of the round table!..." came to mind

23

AMNo2tiredofmoaningtothemoderator,

22/09/2007 07:25:53

On first perusing the article I was pleased that the Tories and Lib Dems had seen fit to comment, nay praise the appointments and hoped to influence them in their deliberations.

What perturbed me, was that there appeared to be no comment from Labour on this august forum of superior minds. Never mind my fears were unfounded as #1 seems to be every-Labour-spokes-man. With his instant attack, suggesting incompetence and malevalence.

To allay your fears 'everyman', each one of those present will have left the meeting with tasks assigned, and work to do before they return to the National Museum of Scotland in three months time.

Not all committees, need work as laboriously as Labour appointed ones.

24

Richardinho,

22/09/2007 07:26:07

'A successful and sustainable economy is based upon targets for national self reliance and the full and appropriate use of all its resources. Red tape has little to do with that. '

Red tape has EVERYTHING to do with that. Time and time again we hear businesses saying that one of the greatest difficulties they face is red tape.

The main problem I envisage however is that whilst red tape is the easiest thing to create, it's very hard to get rid of.

25

Linda,

22/09/2007 07:36:00

Scotsman in Crisis .. no leading anti SNP story to-day. I am told that several folk wrote complaining about MSP shareholding stories but none printed in letters column.

26

Riley Hamish,

edina 22/09/2007 07:39:08

#1 and 6 EVERYMAN
What a load of tosh Sir.
How anyone can object to a government trying to harness the brains and goodwill of its more successful people for the common good is quite astonishing. Astonishing that is until you realise that itsa VERY thinly disguised attack on Alex Salmond personally............and ironically coming from one who bemoans the "personal" attacks here on himself.
Get A Life Sir !!

27

James, Edinburgh,

22/09/2007 08:28:22

Interesting remarks from James Mackinnon regarding planning. I'd like to see more about his deliberations. Did he, for example, touch upon the excercise which has been going on for about five years to "Modernise the Planning System"? That has reached whilte paper stage and should be statute by November 2008. Or has it all been a waste of time and we will go though another costly excercise?

28

Bandit,

at my pc .... obviously 22/09/2007 08:30:50

Ahhhhh Red Tape! The stuff that stops you doing what you want!

Like ...... Building houses on old landfill sites, dumping chemicals in the river, polluting the air, poisoning your kebab, killing employees at work ..... I could go on!!!

The people who suffer most of the real red tape are the poor souls that people here like to slag off ... Council Workers, NHS staff, Police!

29

Fat Freddys Cat,

22/09/2007 08:31:21

CRAWFORD BEVERIDGE
Executive vice-president and chairman of Sun Microsystems in Europe, the Middle East and Africa. From 1991 to 2000, he was chief executive of Scottish Enterprise. Another who backed the SNP during the Holyrood election.

FRANCES CAIRNCROSS
The rector of Exeter College, Oxford University. Worked for 20 years on the Economist magazine. Chaired the Economic and Social Research Council for six years. Highly regarded daughter of a Keynsian economist.

ANDREW HUGHES HALLETT
Professor of economics and public policy at George Mason University in the US and visiting Professor of Economics at St Andrews University. A heavyweight economist in favour of fiscal autonomy and seen as close to SNP.

JOHN KAY
A fellow of St John's College, Oxford, and former as director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Was a professor the London Business School and Oxford University. Currently a visiting professor at the London School of Economics.

ALEX KEMP
Highly respected Professor of Petroleum Economics at the University of Aberdeen. A leading energy and taxation expert who has advised the World Bank. Has expanded his research to renewable energy and carbon capture.

FINN KYDLAND
The Henley Professor of Economics at the University of California, Santa Barbara, he was awarded the Nobel Prize for his work in dynamic macroeconomics. Provides a strong link with Scandinavian and US economic studies.

SIR GEORGE MATHEWSON
Chief executive and then chairman of the Royal Bank of Scotland, which has become one of the biggest banks in the world. Spent six years as the chief executive of the Scottish Development Agency. Spoke out publicly for the SNP in The Scotsman during the election.

JIM McCOLL
Chairman and chief Executive of Clyde Blowers, a company transformed under his leadership into a portfolio of global engineering firms. Chairman of the Welfare to Work Forum in Scotland which has helped 15,000 yo

30

Fat Freddys Cat,

22/09/2007 08:32:31

Seems like a politically unbiased group of some of the keenest business and economic minds available...

31

watcher4,

East Lothian 22/09/2007 08:33:33

Salmond was having a wee debate as to how he is to get out of this 3% local income tax. Pity his brain isnt as big as his mouth.

32

Fat Freddys Cat,

22/09/2007 08:33:37

From and online blog---
================

Arthur ‘the bleak’ Midwinter, former advisor to the Finance Committee has made a bit of an odd attack on First Minister Alex Salmond. Yesterday’s Scotsman carried a report on the appointment of the Council of Economic advisors.

Those appointed carry serious weight in academic circles and the business community – not to mention that two of them are Nobel laureates in economics. In Peter McMahon report for the Scotsman it says that Salmond “said the members [of the economic council], who will not be paid, include some ‘remarkable people’ and deliberately represented a ‘wide spectrum of economic opinion independent of party politics’.”

And how did Midwinter react to this initiative? He said "This is a waste of public money…Hopefully, Mr Salmond will soon stop the gesture politics and make a statement on matters for which he has responsibility,"

So why did former Labour councillor Arthur Midwinter react in this way? Perhaps he didn`t recognise the talents of the economists appointed or appreciate that since they are giving their time freely that their scope to waste money is limited. After all Midwinter is not himself an economist.

I should perhaps qualify pointing out that Midwinter is a former Labour councillor by pointing out he has long been closer politically to the Conservatives and derided Tom McCabe during the election campaign. This was possibly not a sensible move should he have wished to continue on a budget adviser to the Finance Committee – McCabe is the new convener.

33

David MacVicar,

web 22/09/2007 08:35:25

"However, the new minority government must be receptive to fresh thinking that might not necessarily fit in with the SNP's independence agenda."

It is becoming quite sad and somewhat comical that elements of all the unionist parties assume everything the SNP does has an independence agenda.

This group has a remit for comments within devolution and is focused on improving the Scottish economy as is. It has nothing to do with Constitutional issues.

What is not a surpise is that after 50 years of Labour it has taken just 4 Months for an SNP Government to take their good idea (the knights of the round table ;) ) together to generate further "fresh, new ideas for Scotland".

One thing that is unclear to me though is what the role of Jim Mather (Enterprise minister) might be and how he will be appraised of events.

34

Olav,

Gdynia 22/09/2007 08:36:13

Planning red tape is a great place to start. It takes 10 years to get any new major infras project going in Scotland and innovative people are starting to give up on important initiatives because of that.

35

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News Room 22/09/2007 08:39:00

Salmond is yet again sticking to his manifesto and must be congratulated for it. Scotland is indeed crippled by red tape - which is not to be confused with necessary legislation!

Much of the red tape is a form of 'Business Prevention', and our children are being raised in a 'canny do that - it's against the rules' culture.

It stifles growth and ambition, and is disastrous for any econonomy. We need to ditch red tape to re-assume our position as inventors and entrepreneurs, and re-instil a 'can do' attitude to our people.

Yours etc


Angus Whitton

36

qche,

caracas 22/09/2007 08:40:38

Non story allowing some pro-unionist party goon stirring on #1...

Scots Government have amazing coverage, even in Caracas I can see FM questions. Amazing.

He, Nicol who looked like a frightened pullet, and Wendy like a black scottie who just had a sharp tap on the nose and Mrs Goldie looked like a posh version of your Ma Broon.

Amazing.

37

Martyk,

SUSSEX 22/09/2007 08:52:58

why have the Irish guy on board? Can there never be a discussion on Scotlands economy without Ireland being involved or mentioned?

38

Senga Jean,

Scotland 22/09/2007 09:01:32

Alex Salmond is like a breath of fresh air. He is not bound by the need to suck up to a boss in Westminster. I think his ideas are brilliant. Scotland can only get better now that the SNP have a toe hold on the levers of power....now if we had allowed them to grasp the problem properly what differences they could make. I hear whingers saying they are not doing this and that but they forget we did not give them a big enough vote to allow all they wish.

39

Transparent?,

Scotland 22/09/2007 09:06:47

Boy oh boy, is Salmond going to enjoy what he does best - pick other people's brains and spend other people's money in the process - and all for what?

40

Miss Jean Brodie,

22/09/2007 09:10:41

‘growing Scotland's economy’ a key phrase that substitutes the true meaning and eventual effect of this bunch ‘destroying Scotland’s natural environment’

Empty warehouses, offices, buildings, unused roads, canals, waterways, disused rail structures anyone ? There’s plenty of them !

More groups, to just generally screw the world up - commitees - they are like a cancer eating away at the natural survival of all life !

41

Fat Freddys Cat,

22/09/2007 09:18:58

@41

possibly one of the most inane comments ever to appear on these forums...

..."pick other people's brains"...
Is there a world leader (outside of a few despots) who doesn't consult with advisers?

..."spend other people's money"...
not sure exactly what you mean here, but the advisors themselves are unpaid and yes, there will be implications as to where your tax money may be spent or more importantly saved. I for one am happy to listen to 11 of the finest economic and business minds around to make sure my money is *well* spent creating an economy that thrives.

..."and all for what?"
so that the scottish government can be assisted in creating an economy that is fit for purpose and benefits Scotland as a country...

42

Andra, Dundee,

22/09/2007 09:20:14

"Cut red tape" and "update planning rules"
2 Items straight out of the Conservative manifesto.
Looks like this talking shop is a way of pinching ideas that have been around for ages and claiming the credit.

I agree with #1 Everyman - it sounds like nobody read their notes prior to the meeting so they had to cover all the data - wasting the time of anybody who had done their homework - I hate meetings like that. But then they are doing it all for nothing so I suppose you get what you pay for.

Hopefully the quality of following debate was better than on this forum, before they had a big lunch and went home.

43

Boggle fey the Bog,

22/09/2007 09:21:15

#24
Obviously not a very talented 'economist'
Pray tell me how you would solve the 'employment gap'?
Putting it simply , How do you fit 1.65 million jobless people into 662,700 vacancies?

Do you suggest we should follow Maggie Broons idea of 'creating' 500,000 jobs, as that seems to be all that the 'Unionists' have to offer. (which still leaves over 600,000 unemployed persons, and all this making the assumption that the unemployed people will have the necessary skills to fill the vacancies)

Or do you agree that it would be better to see where our system of 'Checks and Balances' (such as Planning Legislation, can be 'tweaked' or indeed altered to encourage inward investment to this Great Country of ours to bring sustainable employment opportunities to our hoodwinked and downtrodden citizens, thereby creating a fair and just society.

Or are you just another 'Orwellian Clone'? Who unstintingly believes everything the Ministry of Propaganda and it's official and unofficial organs tell you.

The First Minister's Council of Advisor are all relatively 'well known' in their particular fields of activity, and indeed some are 'World Class' players, and what's more this 'committee' is not costing the 'Taxpayer' a penny in 'wages' as they are providing their services FREE., that is without taking any wages, salary or remuneration for doing the job.
Now that seems quite cost effective to me, but then again I'm not an 'economist' so what do I know?

44

livilion,

livingston 22/09/2007 09:29:11

#35. David MacVicar

Jim Mather is Minister for Enterprise, Energy & Tourism in the Department for Finance & Sustainable Growth.
We might expect that he will be briefed by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance & Sustainable Growth John Swinney.


I notice that the Chair is Sir George Mathewson, former Chief executive and then chairman of RBS, and not either of the two politicians.

45

unbiased,

in the hoose 22/09/2007 09:29:41

#24:
"Get them off their arses and into worthwhile jobs so they become producers rather than consumers."

I stay at home with no job - does this make me consumer rather than a producer? I retired due to ill health after working more that 40 years - paid my taxes and national insurance, brought up my family, never had social housing, paid into a private pension and have never had a penny in "Social" (other than family allowance) in my life. Think before you post you self-righteous little nerd!

46

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 22/09/2007 09:36:08

Until they come up with hard and fast plans it is difficult to make any sort of comment.

That being said - I don't envy them - we have had governments of all colour promising to cut red tape but they rarely find they are able to.

47

Upbeat,

22/09/2007 09:39:06

Gathering so much intellect into one place every three months should be entertaining at the very least. (Albeit a costly tutorial for Holyrood. )

Interestingly , to judge from the brief detail given here, it appears that not so many of the academics have much first hand experience of Scotland. So we must trust that those that have this expertise will address this deficiency.

Good luck to them. At the very least a certain former economist to the RBS is likely to find himself very much out of his depth in such intellectual, and highly successful company. He might learn something ...who knows ? Cheap at twice the price ?

48

ochone, ochone,

sauchie, clack's 22/09/2007 09:52:29

People with differing political ideals will of course differ in their points of view, but anyone who wants to see just why Scotland has suffered at the hands of the Unionists over the years and also why it is vital we free ourselves from their warped thinking, should read and if necessary re-read their posts on hear today.

Those that are not just shear spite are so dumb as to be dangerous!

49

livilion,

livingston 22/09/2007 09:53:19

39. Martyk, SUSSEX

Blooming liberty isn't it?

I see they've also got some Englishmen onboard as well, it seems we can't have a discussion about the economy of Scotland without Ireland or England being mentioned, or Oil.

It seems we can't have a discussion about the Scottish economy without mentioning Ireland, England, Oil or international business leaders.

It seems we can't have a discussion about Scottish economics without mentioning Ireland, England, Oil, international business leaders or aquisition of Scottish assets by other countries, no-one expected the Spanish aquisition of our national energy utilities, no-one expects a Spanish Aquisition their chief weapon is surprise, surprise and...

And now for something completely different...

50

Andean Bogtrotter,

22/09/2007 10:05:01

I am glad to see that Professor James Merrlees is on the committee. As Westminster refuses to collect (or disseminate?) separate information on the Scottish economy in major fields like tax income (allocating by the location of the head office rather than the point of production), Professor Mirrlee's work in the field of economic modelling in situations where information is incomplete will be very apposite.

51

livilion,

livingston 22/09/2007 10:06:37

49. Not A Unionist or Nationalist

I believe the term used by these economic experts is 'constraints'
ie constraints on growth, one element of which may be government red tape.
Other constaints on the economy might be the skills gap, or manpower shortages.

Peter McMahon might have an issue understanding the concept of this term so substitutes one which he finds fits his own ideas ie red tape.

When we consider that previous Scottish adminstrations have been run by lawyers and secondary school teachers it may be no bad thing to invite real economic experts in to give advice.

When you also take into account what these individuals usually expect in the way of renumeration for their time, this free advice has been an excellent piece of business conducted by the new Scottish First Minister, regardless of the eventual outcome.

52

Nikostratos,

22/09/2007 10:10:06

I am as most 'Normal' people (VOTERS) completely 'underwhelmed with this latest in a long (boring) line of S.N.P rag week type stunts.

And from the S.N.P book of political twaddle this statement.

"adding it was "possible" to have a growth rate equal to the UK's within four years, but that he was "not prepared to say at this point in time how we would do it".

Well they would wouldn't they............

53

AMNo2tiredofmoaningtothemoderator,

22/09/2007 10:27:58

#55 Nikostratus, so are we to just accept that our economy dawdles behind and do as Labour in Scotland have done these past ten years and do nothing?

54

Everyman,

22/09/2007 10:37:25

I find it depressing that those who apparantly favour the SNPs decision to form this group are so obnoxious and ill manerred.

It is also interesting the venue, is that meeting room in the independence part of the museum? I bet it is.

Why waste tax payers money on renting that, we paid £650,000,000 plus to provide a perfectly adequate building at holyrood where I'm sure there are lots of free and functional rooms the First Minister is allowed to book.

Substance over form with the SNP every time. The presence of Irish adviser there worrying, why are there no English or Welsh advisers on the team, if it is not more posturing without mandate from Alex Salmond.

The 'red tape' business moan about is sex/disability/political discriminiation etc. I am not surprised to see that the obnoxious commentators cannot understand that. 'Red tape' is a good thing in many ways.

55

livilion,

livingston 22/09/2007 10:53:19

#50. Upbeat
""..it appears that not so many of the academics have much first hand experience of Scotland..""

Aye right enough only,
Salmond, Swinney, Jennifer Steedman, Crawford Beveridge , Robert Smith, Jennifer Erickson , Prof Alex Kemp, Sir George Mathewson, Jim McColl , Andrew Goudie and Prof Andrew Hughes Hallett have any first hand experience of Scotland's economy.

This leaves these 'lightweights' with probably only limited first hand experience of the Scottish economy:

Finn Kydland (Norwegian)
Henley Professor of Economics at the University of California, Santa Barbara

Prof Frances Ruane (Irish)
Director of Ireland's Economic and Social Research Institute

Frances Cairncross (English)
Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh and Rector of Exeter College, Oxford

John Kay (English)
Visiting professor at the London School of Economics.
Fellow of St John's College, Oxford. Former professor of the London Business School and Oxford University.
Former director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies.

At least these sixteen should be able to count a bit better than Peter MacMahon who it would appear has numeracy issues with numbers greater than ten.

""..Sources close to council last night said that the nine of the 11-member body..""

:-)

56

AMNo2tiredofmoaningtothemoderator,

22/09/2007 10:59:10

#57 If it weren't for the appalling spelling mistakes I'd have taken you for MIA AM2. Although it has to be said, even his own particular brand of 'soor grapes' rarely dips to your level.

57

livilion,

livingston 22/09/2007 11:06:27

59. karinm
Let him rant.

He posts such obvious tosh it's hardly worth the effort rebutting him.

The recent report on why Labour in Scotland lost the May election said it was primarily because of their negative attitude to everything Scottish.


I suggest you let him carry on his good work for the cause of Scottish independence.

58

Fat Freddys Cat,

22/09/2007 11:06:33

@57
"The 'red tape' business moan about is sex/disability/political discriminiation etc. I am not surprised to see that the obnoxious commentators cannot understand that. 'Red tape' is a good thing in many ways."

hmmmm, let me see.... oh yes, heres an example of just how labour will use sex/discrimination to better their own ends -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7006231.stm

59

Andra, Dundee,

22/09/2007 11:07:13

#51 ochone, ochone
Exactly how has Scotland suffered at the hands of the Unionist? You are talking twaddle and the sooner this "reason" for Scotland lagging is dropped the sooner we will get to the real roots of the problem. We have been in the Union for 300 years and we have a GDP per head just a few % short of the UK average. I don't have the figures but a expect there were many years when we had a GDP above the UK average.
I wonder if it is just the last 50 years of socialism that has dragged us down - nothing to do with the Union at all. In fact things may have been very much worse had it not been for the Union.
Scotland used to be the most enterprising outward looking region of the Union, however Socialism has scuppered that. We need to shake of the chains and get back on our feet - and the Union and the EU provide the perfect environment for progress.
Both Ireland and England - the targets we seem to set ourselves - have a much more liberal outlook.

60

Everyman,

22/09/2007 11:07:25

#59 and # 60

It is sad that you are so obnixious. I am entitled to discuss the article.

The fact that it is a "good thing" as you claim is still conjecture as well.

They reported they could get growth up but did not yet now how, the groups own press releases are conjecture.

This is hot air from the SNP and If I were a betting, I'd bet I am proved right.

#59

Of course the meeting room at the museam was rented and of course it was paid for by the tax payer, if it was paid for by the SNP as you suggest then the group has an immediate further bar to impartiality in that the SNP are funding it.

# 59 Please tell us who funded the meeting if I am wrong?

61

Everyman,

22/09/2007 11:10:04

# 62

That is not very inteligent, is it?

We are discussing the broader red tape business wants removed to increase productivity, not your own trivial and isolated poltical rants.

America is the most productive country in the world, it has no employment rights. There is no logeal obligation to give paid holiday for example, this is the red tape business wants removed.

62

Everyman,

22/09/2007 11:13:32

# 61

Critical thought is the greatest leap in human inteligence. It still today provides the best framework for advances in science and most other fields.

Is the SNP policy to abolish critical thought? You have to be kidding man, you want a non-thinking patriotic country like America where any criticism is branded unpatriotic and a crime virtually?

I suggest it for everyone's good if critical thought remains alive and well in our society.

The society in which the non-thinking plebs that the SNP are creating dominate is one not worth thinking about.

63

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 11:15:56

Meanwhile Wendy Alexander met with Bleak Midwinter at Pauline McNeil's flat for a chicken chow mein.

64

HMFC,

22/09/2007 11:16:43

Elite? Well one of them is to be accurate.

Other than Jim McColl the rest are hardly elite.

65

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 11:18:59

66 Everyman

The SNP is in favour of critical thought. If one does pop into your head, in place of your predictable sterile unionits nay-saying, do please let us all here be the first to know. I am sure we will warmly congratulate and encourage you.

66

Andra, Dundee,

22/09/2007 11:19:59

#67 AyrshireScot
You hit on a valid point - all politicians use advisers - however the SNP are the first to put a positive spin on the activity rather than the outcome.

67

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 11:20:49

52 - Livilion - LOL, excellent.

68

HMFC,

22/09/2007 11:20:53

#66 Everyman

Is not just the case that anyone who is a failure needs to blame someone and not themselves.

The Union, Education, Parents, Your dug - all great excuses for failure.

69

Fat Freddys Cat,

22/09/2007 11:22:11

@66

Everyman,
one small point you seem to have missed -

Intelligent and well thought out criticisms, together with positive ideas for change would always be encouraged...

however,

your posts on this thread are 'limited in intelligence, poorly thought out and provide a negative slating rather than constructive criticism'

*that* is why you (and Labour) lost the election in May. Some unionists acknowledge that fact and a recent survey confirmed it - perhaps you've not bee keeping up? (understandably it would appear).

70

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 11:22:30

70 - Andra

the outcome for Wendy of her first chinese take-away, was, as someone else has described them The Cabbage Patch Dolls and her disastrous performance at FMQs. Perhaps she would be best 'advised' to get some better advisers?

71

Everyman,

22/09/2007 11:24:10

#69 AyrshireScot

It is dissapointing that most of the SNP supporters on here are as obnoxious and petulant as yourself.

To attack the author repeatedly rather than address the subject matter is a phallacy.

I have made my points clearly enough to be understood and have just had a tirade of unsubstantiated and unconctructive abuse from smarty pants SNP supporters who clearly find there own arguments sophisticated and clever but in reality are fit for the playground.

It is dissapointing the Scotsman don't start removing obnoxious phallacy from these boards and the users so those who want to can have some discussion of the matter in hand.

72

Florence,

Edinburgh 22/09/2007 11:24:42

Thank goodness that the members of this council are not career politicians who have nothing to offer except years of local West of Scotland council politics - and you know the calibre of that!

73

livilion,

livingston 22/09/2007 11:29:11

66. Everyman

Rant on puddin, your 'critical thought' is just what the doctor ordered.

In this country as it is in democracies the world over it is your right to make a chorus of yourself in print.

Fire away pal, none so blind and all that.

74

Fat Freddys Cat,

22/09/2007 11:32:02

@75

at post 66 you stated -
"I suggest it for everyone's good if critical thought remains alive and well in our society."

at post 75 you further go on to say -
"It is dissapointing the Scotsman don't start removing obnoxious phallacy from these boards and the users"


so which is it to be?
Free speech or not?

You very, *very* clearly are an imbecile and possiby simply a troll... I certainly wont be wasting any more time on your rather confusing and child-like comments.

75

Everyman,

22/09/2007 11:32:59

#73 Fat Freddy

You haven't said anything there.

Please tell me why I am wrong, if you genuinely think so that is?

You seem to just be being obnoxious and petulant. I have not offered myself as a Labour cupporter, an SNP supporter, Liberal, Tory or otherwise.

It is almost as though the grass roots SNP muck populate these boards to sabotage discussion, it's utterly distasteful. I blame the police for confiscating their buckfast and moving them on from street corners. Now they have to go online to harrass innocent citizens who are just going about their business.

76

livilion,

livingston 22/09/2007 11:33:25

75. Everyman
Tit!

77

BMeister,

22/09/2007 11:34:12

#64 Everyman
I see nothing obnixious or even obnoxious in either post #59 or #60 unless either you feel being likened to AM2 is insulting, although given your anti-SNP viewpoint I don't think so, or you consider anyone who disagrees with you to be offensive.

'and If I were a betting' - I think you are indeed, abetting AM2 by filling in for him while he's away this morning.

78

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 11:34:56

75 Everyman

do try and hide your dissappointment.

You state "to attack another author repeatedly" - I only criticsed the sterility of your postings. You then call me obnoxious and petulant. Just to make you happy and prove your point, my wee despondent correspondent:

Your use of "phallacy" and "in hand" in your last paragraph is telling. I assume you are typing one handed. It is just a pity that posters like you cannot summon an iota of original thought in place of your negative, sheepish bleating on this thread. There, does that count as repeatedly abusing you?

79

Everyman,

22/09/2007 11:37:22

#78 Fat freddy

I am going to have just ignore you.

You have nothing to offer this debate, even the small minded points you try and make are pathetic and hardly worthy of comment. But as this is the last time, I will.

Critical thought, this debunks an idea.

Obnoxious phallacy, this attacks an author NOT an idea.

This noticeboard is for discussion of ideas and petulant smarty pants diatribe.

So it is obvious you are comparing apples and oranges there because you lack the inteligence or maturity to engage in grown up discussion of the article.

80

Unrepentant Dinosaur,

Scotland 22/09/2007 11:37:57

Dear Everyman (#57)

Sorry to hear you are depressed by all these rude, obnoxious SNP supporters. Is it not a terrible thing when people are so incapable of seeing any good that present a totally biased and inaccurate view of the world?

You said, "we paid £650,000,000 plus to provide a perfectly adequate building at Holyrood"

And who made us pay all that for an "adequate" building? At that price I'd have expected Holyrood Palace in the 21st century form.

It does seem rather macabre that supporters of a party that have wasted money in alarming amounts e.g. 50 grand for a plumbing job in N. Lanarks. that should have cost a couple of hundred, PPP projects that have cost the tax payer at least four times more than a government building project with capital borrowing and the much vaunted building in Holyrood to name but a few, should suddenly get holier than thou over efforts to cut red tape, increase economic growth and ultimately save the tax payer money.

I can only assume your cynicism is based on the performance of the Labour party over ten years on the basis that if it were possible they would have done it.

A more critical eye might simply accept that were not up to the job. Their incompetence is now a matter of record. If after ten years the SNP have done no better in what even the most biased anti-SNP observer would have to concede were less than favourable circumstances (maybe not), then perhaps you might have a reasonably sound argument.

Personally I would rather have "substance over form" every time instead of sound bites, jargon and humbug.

Hope you don't feel I have been impolite or too tendentious.

Best Regards
Unrepentant Dinosaur

81

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 11:40:44

84 Everyman

#78 Fat freddy

I am going to have just ignore you....by writing 5 paragraphs to you,,,lol

82

Everyman,

22/09/2007 11:41:07

#83

You took that point out of context.

SNPs think themselve sophisticated and clever.

You have proven my point, taking something out of context is just smarty pants diatribe and blatantly stupid and petulant, although clearly you think otherwise. You are a tragedy.

I will add you to my ignore list, I have no wish to waste time on chavs who lack the maturity to engage in discussion.

83

Everyman,

22/09/2007 11:42:15

#87 Ayrshire Scot

You are nothing more than a troll. I will just ignore you as well.

I think I will log bag in later and see if any grown ups are on to discuss this articale.

84

BMeister,

22/09/2007 11:44:00

At least AM2 puts forward a viewpoint rather than just slating the SNP and using the word obnoxious in every post.

If you were AM2 you would now say something like 'Aha - not every post, I think you'll find it's only 87.4% of posts' and then quote that 2006 survey at me.

'I have not offered myself as a Labour cupporter, an SNP supporter, Liberal, Tory or otherwise. '
No - but you have shown yourself to be very anti-SNP and certainly not above using obnoxious insults yourself.

If you genuinely want to enagage in debate then try to be more constructive.

85

Neil Thomas,

South Lanarkshire 22/09/2007 11:44:37

#41 Transparent.....as in "Glaucoma" transparent...or "Cataract" transparent.

You post mince.

86

BMeister,

22/09/2007 11:44:43

Sorry, I was speaking to Everyman in post #91

87

livilion,

livingston 22/09/2007 11:45:10

84. Everyman
Can I suggest, as you don't seem to be getting the point of 'Phallacy' and 'in hand', that you look up the meanings of the words 'Phallus' and 'fallacy'.

So it is obvious you are comparing apples and oranges there because you lack the inteligence, maturity or dictionary to engage in grown up discussion of the article, smelly knickers.

88

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 11:49:09

89 Everyman "You are nothing more than a troll. I will just ignore you as well. " again, the tactic of ignoring someone by writing to them, a cunning unionist feint and surprise move.

"I think I will log bag in later" .... and then, as if by magic, up pops AM2

89

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 11:49:34

99 AM2

you have ommitted the word "mince" from #99. Please correct the error

90

The laird.,

leadhills 22/09/2007 11:49:50

this group of special advisors have offered there services free to help the nation of scotland, more than can be said of the chancer midwinter unless ofcoarse he is only excepting his propaganga and lies allowance, loony lanarkshire labour and glasgow are up to there eyes in red tape an employee requiring a black bin liner requires to fill in a form first before they receive the bag and if for any reason they require 2, bin liners they have to fill in a second form when asked if they can fill in one form and copy the first form thus making 2, seperate forms this was refused as both forms have to be completed seperately so much for the unionist ideoligy so the moral of the story is do everything differently from the way the labour uniionists would do it another thing the labour cartel to cover there lies is most of the time they do not take minutes at all to try and cover there lies unfortuneately most of there supporters dont know have of what is going on apart from the clique and the gravy train brigade.

91

,

22/09/2007 11:53:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 987468, Article id was mapped to record!
92

,

22/09/2007 11:53:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 987469, Article id was mapped to record!
93

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 11:54:31

103 Karin

careful, the Nationalist Cyber Defence Forces are only ever a log out away.....

94

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 11:57:27

106 Neil

if you are on his ignore list he will still write to you. He says he will ignore you just to lure you into a sense of security before blind-siding you with a bucket load of banal, stale mince.

Ps - you told me off before for using "mince" and here you are at it above. Damned cheek

95

Rodster,

Glasgow 22/09/2007 12:00:13

I just cannot understand why Unionists continue to ridicule and rubbish any and all SNP Government initiatives and policies.
Critical debate is a good and healthy thing ,however blind faith in a system that has most ceretainly run its course and not been the most beneficial to our country is sick.
These very able and eminent people giving their expertise to our nation should be lauded from all people in Scotland .
We are very fortunate to have such able people helping us hopefully improve the common weal.
Yet the unionists in denial keep attacking because their beloved Labour Party was democratically defeated in May.
I swear if the SNP government suggested healthy diet and excercise for the nation these nerds would find some way of rubbishing the idea.
By all means hold different political views but do it with reason and sense not just blind hatred .

96

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 12:03:01

110 - AM2

I do engage in constructive debate. On the other thread yesterday, where your weak unionist argumentation was gutted and filleted comprehensively, you took the huff and went away.

On the EU thread when your error re. Borg's retraction quote was pointed out, you willfully refused to accept fact and apologies. When you are big enough to accept a defeat and apologise for your error I will debate constructively with you.

You discredit yourself quite well enough without help from me.

PS - I think a wee bit of Winged Messengers "spew, spew all over you" from yesterday is still on you, and its wiped off onto your posting there.

97

Col. Blimp IV*,

22/09/2007 12:11:32

#110. AM2, Glasgow - " What real motivation would the SNP Executive have to actually raise Scotland's growth rate? Wouldn't it give ammunition to their opponents? Couldn't they then point, quite reasonably, to how the mechanics of the current devolution settlement were sufficient"

Makes you wonder why in 300yrs worth of Scotland being ruled by Vichy-style administrators - THEY NEVER THOUGHT OF DOING THAT?

98

BMeister,

22/09/2007 12:14:37

#110 - AM2
Hooray, someone making points rather than name calling. I thought I was being quite complimentary to you before.

I hope this group including some of the best business/economic minds we have can come up with some good ideas and initiatives to improve our country (I mean Scotland, let's not get into the what is a country debate).

Will Salmond try and steer the agenda - he may well do, he is a politician after all and this is not a judicial review. Everyone has their own agenda, including all the members of this panel, I'll be interested to see what theoutput is.

What motivation do the SNP have to raise Scotland's growth rate? Leaving aside the basic considerations of wanting to do what they are there for and wanting to improve their own country i.e. from a purely political point of view the SNP were voted in due to the optimism they created ( see yesterday's report and yourn own comments) so now they have to try and move the country forwar to fulfill this. Can their opponents use it to try and claim that the current powers are sufficient? They can but I think it creates an even stronger argument along the lines of - 'look what we did with the limited powers we have now, imagine what we could do if we had more.'

99

Andean Bogtrotter,

22/09/2007 12:17:53

#75 Everyman:

"Fallacy" please not "phallacy"!

I am not sure what "phallacy" might mean but it could be a collective noun for a group of "phalli" ie a bunch of (unionist?) pricks!

100

Neil Thomas,

South Lanarkshire 22/09/2007 12:21:35

Ayrshire Scot

"Ps - you told me off before for using "mince" and here you are at it above. Damned cheek"

Moi? Neil Thomas? Never. You must be confusing me with some anagram or other.

;-)

101

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 12:23:36

120 AM2

at no point in yesterday's debate did I thrown insults at you, other than at the start (wee sheep, and that was written more in affectionation that insult :-) ). I was subjected to far worse by that cyber-fiend melgibson but did not let it put me off the substantive arguments.

On Borg, you accused myself and Miss H of inventing the quote, and twisting it, when we both stated it word for word accurately. Apologise for the charge of invention of the quote!

102

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 12:24:24

123 Aye, I must have been drinking the meths again

103

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 12:27:19

124 - meant affection btw, or maybe affectation

104

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 12:30:35

118 Col B

a fascinating point you make. It does indeed make you wonder why the Unionist London types hadn't thought, that if economic sucess was the way to keep Scotland in the Union, why they have never thought to try it out, or reduce poverty, or stop treating Scotland as a dump for nuclear waste and WMD. Maybe it hadn't crossed their minds?

105

Nikostratos,

22/09/2007 12:35:28

#112 Rodster

"Blind faith" and that from a 'Nationalist' Drone with no 'Independent' thought or belief over than the S.N.P dogma which he has been spoon fed.

"able and eminent people " they may be but are these experts 'Independent' of mind and not just Nationalist cyphers.

You can find "Able and Eminent" generals but if they are fighting for the enemy. Would you put your trust in them will they be loyal to their comrades rather than their nation ?

What would you lot of S.N.P apologists do if one or more of these experts were to say the best way forward economically would be for Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom.

I can Imagine your posts and none of them would be praising their much vaunted expertise. That's the 'Nub of the argument' these are handpicked experts who follow the S.N.P Dogma or they would not be on the council or anywhere near it.

106

HMFC,

22/09/2007 12:35:55

127 Ayrshire Scot

a fascinating point you make. It does indeed make you wonder why the SNP Ayrshire types hadn't thought, that sucess or lack of it is by their own making.


Maybe it hadn't crossed their minds?

107

melgibson@snp.org.uk,

22/09/2007 12:36:44

G'day my fellow scotchmen

I would like to take this opportunity to summise the Scotch and the Tartan traitors point of view on here from the posts thus far.

First let us refresh our memories with the traitors arguments:

- That this is spin, as the group has already announced that it is going to happen without knowing how.
- That the group cannot possibly provide impartial advice to the First Minister as the First Minister is in fact steering the group
- That the group comprises a majority who are in favour of the SNP's independence agenda and will not therefore be impartial to the benefits of the economic benefits of staying in the Union.
- That the location of the meeting was bizarre, as there are many meeting room in the Parliament for Scotch business.

This is typical of the treasonaitors, they use so called facts and analysis to support the points the are making, we true bravehearts all know that this is little more constructive debate and discussion.

Let us now turn to the more weighty Scotch arguments.

- We know these critics are just unionist trolls, even though there is no basis for presumption of political motivation of the authors.
- Spelling is bad
- We have never liked AM2
- Labour spent a lot of money on a building so why not throw good money after bad and not use it.
- We know independence is best, so we don't even need impartiality from an economic think tank.
- Alex Salmond will be making the decision so he is right to steer the group that provides his balances and check to eliminate the 'red tape' that otherwise might make his future decisions harder.
- The SNP agenda is the only correct one so why bother entertaining any other though.

Scotchmen 1 - 0 Treasonaitors.

That is obvious from cleverigent analysis of debate at half time.

108

melgibson2@snp.org.uk,

22/09/2007 12:38:34

G'day my fellow scotchmen

I would like to take this opportunity to summise the Scotch and the Tartan traitors point of view on here from the posts thus far.

First let us refresh our memories with the traitors arguments:

- That this is spin, as the group has already announced that it is going to happen without knowing how.
- That the group cannot possibly provide impartial advice to the First Minister as the First Minister is in fact steering the group
- That the group comprises a majority who are in favour of the SNP's independence agenda and will not therefore be impartial to the benefits of the economic benefits of staying in the Union.
- That the location of the meeting was bizarre, as there are many meeting room in the Parliament for Scotch business.

This is typical of the treasonaitors, they use so called facts and analysis to support the points the are making, we true bravehearts all know that this is little more constructive debate and discussion.

Let us now turn to the more weighty Scotch arguments.

- We know these critics are just unionist trolls, even though there is no basis for presumption of political motivation of the authors.
- Spelling is bad
- We have never liked AM2
- Labour spent a lot of money on a building so why not throw good money after bad and not use it.
- We know independence is best, so we don't even need impartiality from an economic think tank.
- Alex Salmond will be making the decision so he is right to steer the group that provides his balances and check to eliminate the 'red tape' that otherwise might make his future decisions harder.
- The SNP agenda is the only correct one so why bother entertaining any other though.

Scotchmen 1 - 0 Treasonaitors.

That is obvious from cleverigent analysis of debate at half time.

109

HMFC,

22/09/2007 12:39:50

130 Until people stop blaming everything and everyone but themselves we will be stuck in this stop go merry go round.

The So Negative Party need to wake up to this.

110

HMFC,

22/09/2007 12:42:53

#133 Thanks youv'e made my day.

111

Andra, Dundee,

22/09/2007 12:46:27

#128 karinm
The Union has provided Scotland with sustained growth for at least a decade. Are you trying to argue the Independence will somehow protect is from negative impacts from the World wide economy? Maybe you propose isolation - like Cuba?
Which currency? The one that is causing the unsustainable boom in Ireland?
What justification do you have for the English market becoming less important for us (wishful thinking?).

I stated previously that we have only started to lag England since Socialism took over in Scotland. I wish to add that Nationalism may be taking our eye off the ball as well - your proclamations of doom and gloom are a self full-filling prophecy.

112

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 22/09/2007 12:46:39

#133

What is a Scotchman?

113

Upbeat,

22/09/2007 12:46:45

58 Livilion

If you wish to pick up on points made by others it is advisable to read what they wrote, not what you imagine they wrote.

At # 50 I said ....." it appears that not so many of the academics have much first hand experience of Scotland. So we must trust that those that have this expertise will address this deficiency."

You copied and pasted ..... "it appears that not so many of the academics have much first hand experience of Scotland."

You then implied that : Salmond, Swinney, Jennifer Steedman, Crawford Beveridge , Robert Smith, Jennifer Erickson, Sir George Mathewson, Jim McColl , Andrew Goudie were all academics.

While they migh be very " chuffed" by your assertion , I am sure they are honest enough to know that the term "academics" applies to the following defined group : 'Academics or academic staff are the people who teach and undertake research at the University.'
Those on your list with the exception of Prof Halford Hewitt do not.

The point was well made in #50 . Your rushing to the defence of what you imagined might be an attack on our Scottish Government was wonderful ... but misguided !

114

Nikostratos,

22/09/2007 12:51:08

#133 melgibson2@snp.org.uk

Well you happy with your own analysis and like all S.N.P Drones give yourself a good score..will the electorate agree...


looks like the U.K will have even more oil now...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/oil/story/0,,2174615,00.html
"Britain is preparing territorial claims on tens of thousands of square miles of the Atlantic Ocean floor around the Falklands, Ascension Island and Rockall in the hope of annexing potentially lucrative gas, mineral and oil fields, the Guardian has learned."

115

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 12:51:09

137 AM2

stop, your cracking me up. Gosh, I had no idea my adjectives were so prolix with colour. You misrepresent, however. The only ones aimed at you were:

"fragile grip on reality" - this only after you had taken the huff
"crystal bollxxks" in reference to your clairvoyant predictions of Scottish collapse post independence
"organ grinder" - Mona was the monkey so this hardly counts
"mendacious and petty" - in reference to your failure to apologise for charge of inventing Borg "out of context" quote - this still stands
"garlic to a vampire" - was a metaphorical reference to your aversion to any positive statement about Scotland's future, was not a direct reference to you, but a metaphor for the arguments, so can scarecly be classed as an insult

I note your failure to comment on melgibsons characterisation of me as a wan$%r, s£$te, knob, prick, etc. All part of the rough and tumble of debate.

116

Rodster,

Glasgow 22/09/2007 12:51:58

#131Nikosrtatos
As I said in my earlier posts if the SNP government suggested healthy lifestyle you and your ilk would find some way of rubbishing it.
You accept all the Labour think tanks as gospel but are not willing to even give this body of people a chance to try and improve our lot.
What is it about self determination that scares you so much?
I have no idea of your employment or circumstances but why don't you send me your salary cheque each month and I will tell you exactly how much you can spend ,what clothes you can buy how much you can spend on accomodation,food etc
You seem to feel the need to have someone else make all the decisions in life for you .
Personally I prefer the thought of standing on my own two feet for better or worse.

117

BMeister,

22/09/2007 12:55:48

Come on AM2 - I answered your questions with my viewpoint but you're not debating or responding because you're too busy arguing with AyrshireScot etc. about who called who what name. That's about the level of debate my children aged 8 and 6 involve themselves in.
I can't believe that someone as entrenched in their view as yourself has no answer or are you too busy with the AM2, RNOT, AM2, RNOT, AM2, RNOT type of discussion?

118

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 12:59:55

137 AM2

if you want constructive debate, I suggest you be less one-sided and hypocritical in your bleating complaints about insyults. What about Niko there with "SNP drones" a phrase you yourself have used.

Until you stop distasteful diversions and one-sided complaint about level of debate there is the danger of a wee bit inadvertent colourful language being used.

119

Queen D,

Glasgow 22/09/2007 13:01:55

Delighted that this group has got together,a fine group if I may say so.
It seems to have been put together with some thought and I wish them well in their endeavours.
All governments have advisers,I think the labour party under T.Blair had more than any other preceding govrnments,but I'm sure some know all out there will correct me if I'm wrong!
Good on them that they are giving their time and expertise for the good of Scotland and not to line their own pockets!!

120

ochone, ochone,

Sauchie,clack's 22/09/2007 13:03:45

Andra fae Dundee, sorry for the delay I've only just got back to my computer.

Twaddle eh, Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think it is just my faulty imagination at work when you consider, Area's of depravation such as some of our 'great' housing estates, the general state of health in Scotland, the under performance of the Scottish economy, or all those schools which are in such a poor state of affairs, that so many of them are having to be replaced at the same time, ppi's, Iraq, the handling of the McCrone report, and the failure to even run an election properly, there are so many more examples of what we have to and continue to suffer at all levels from various unionist, governments, executives and councils, but these will do to begin with.

You then admit that Scotland has been dragged down, you then go from wondering if socialism is to blame to stating that it is definately responsible for Scotland no longer being the most enterprising part of the union!

That would be the socialism we got from voting in British elections wouldnt it?

You also state that things would have been very much worse without the union, isin't that the same type of blinkered reading of history that nationilists are accused of?

By the way, when I last checked Ireland wasn't part of the union and they don't seem to mind, the fools!

121

Andra, Dundee,

22/09/2007 13:04:49

#143 karinm
Well the SNP are keen to quote that Labour have been in power in Scotland for 50 years - so I would suggest that this coincides with main 50 years in the last 300 that we have lagged England in GDP growth.
Where have you been (/ are you) not to have noticed this? Socialism is where problems are solved by spending taxpayers money rather than making tough decisions. Scotland used to be the enterprise powerhouse of the Union - now it is the Socialist backwater - this is not the fault of the Union - it is entirely the fault of the Scottish people.
Stop blaming others and get on with making the place where you live a better place. Forget about borders, they are distracting you from the real issues.

122

BMeister,

East Lothian 22/09/2007 13:09:06

#152, cheers, I'm departing too and will look this evening, off down the beach i think, far too nice a day to be in.

123

MtnKat,

22/09/2007 13:24:34

#133muckgoonson
Fancy that, the most brilliant minds on the planet are those you refer to:
"That the group comprises a majority who are in favour of the SNP's independence agenda".
Seems to give credence to the SNP's agenda I'd say.

124

Riley Hamish,

edina 22/09/2007 13:31:22

EVERYMAN
If you care to check, I think you'll be forced to agree that while I oppose your views, I have made no personal attacks on you.
What a pity that you are unable to make similar claim in respect of opponents.
This advice will doubtless fall on deaf ears but, if I were you(perish the thought), I think I'd quit posting as of now, before you become a total laughing stock ....
......Hmmm, ...........perhaps I should have written much earlier !!

125

melgibson2@snp.org.uk,

22/09/2007 13:36:47

#159 G'day Scotch tribesmon MtnKat

I certainly agree, that those esteemed gentleman support the SNP does indeed give a certain credence to the policies and ideology of the SNP. But, alas, on the intelectual level you are perhaps failing to place my criticism in context.

Let me start by saying there is a time and a place for everything, and the time and a place to give credence to the SNP is when campaigning, as these gentleman did.

The time and a place for impartial advice to the Scotch people, and that is the function of government, is when advising the government.

I think perhaps you are judging me by your own standards, I am not saying these men are not credible or cleverigent or in fact succesful.

I am saying they are bias, and there is never a time and place for bias within the realms of objectivity.

Please also note, there are many successful cleverigent Scotchmen and bravehearts who support opposing parties, they too have credence.

I hope this clears up my criticism, it is not of the SNP or in fact the esteemed gentlemen to which you refer, my complaint is the context in which they are placed versus the necessary objectivity they need to provide ALL of Scotchland with.

126

Fat Freddys Cat,

22/09/2007 13:54:35

I've never seen melgibson on these forums before (I spend less time here than I used to) so can anyone fill me in on why he contiually refers to 'scotch' people etc?

Is it a deliberate wind-up or is he simply lacking any tact, knowledge or both?

For your info Mel (although I'm sure you *fully* understand why you use the term) 'Scotch' is a drink and when used to describe the Scots people is generally accepted as insulting these days... it went out of fashion some several hundred years ago.

127

Perry,

Paisley 22/09/2007 13:56:06

Why don't we give the above amount of energy when we see what comes out of the work?

128

MtnKat,

22/09/2007 14:04:15

#161
Are you suggesting that these people with impeccable credentials are without ethics? Why would they even consider offering advice that would tarnish their credibility?
It boggles the mind that you think they would be willing to throw away a lifetime of effort and achievement. What would motivate them to do that?

129

MtnKat,

22/09/2007 14:10:52

INTERNATIONAL ADVERT:
Minority government seeking to replace council of eminent economists with council of equal or higher qualifications. Applicants must be opposed to said governments agenda.

130

mona,

22/09/2007 14:25:42

156. absolutely correct, aportioning blame is the easy option.

131

Neil Thomas,

South Lanarkshire 22/09/2007 14:35:16

#141 Upbeat

That's as may be, but www.academicsltd.co.uk is a web site specifically for teacher recruitment.

...but I suppose that's just academic.

132

Dunnie,

Canada 22/09/2007 15:47:21

I belSalmond's efforts to reduce "red tape" should be applauded and supported.

Regardless of your politics, a more efficient government should not only be the responsibility of the elected but the right of the electors.

Many a good man and woman has gone down this road before . . . so I must say I'm a bit pessimistic. Red tape is the manna and mantra of the bureaucracy.

However, I say keep an open mind and a sharp eye.

133

Dunnie,

Canada 22/09/2007 15:48:31

Sorry, second word in previous posting should have been "believe".

BTW - where the hell is Methallions?

134

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 15:57:39

171 - Dunnie

how are you. I think he is posing under an anagram - try Neil Thomas...

135

Andra, Dundee,

22/09/2007 16:00:17

#163 karinm
What was negative about what I said?
I suggest we stop blaming others (i.e. London labour / England / The Union) and start working on fixing things that need fixed. For example getting people off Social Security and back to work; attract people to come and live here by providing good housing (adjustment to planning rules required); Invest in infrastructure (e.g. Edinburgh trams).
The "economic council" are supposed to come up with answer - but we already have most of the answers - focus on our up and coming industries - e.g. the financial sector; the education and research; i.t. programing.

136

MacIan,

22/09/2007 16:04:19

We seem to be overburdened with polemic in these posts, as usual.

I suppose this means there is a 'conversation'.

I have noticed that there is a change of tack in some of the official unionist posters. Instead of deriding the notion of a free Scotland as a fiction of the absurd, and grossly exaggerating the problems of independence, - they have started to LOVE UKania, patriotism here we come.

This is a HUGE shift, and obviously a much discussed subject around the planning department table. But is is high risk at the End of Empire, where the original components of the former Empire still exist.

The End of Empires is always a disruptive time; if the centre (for us- London) is threatened, as it was in 1974, then expect anything from lies and deceit to possible military intervention, as McCrone put it.

If the centre is not threatened, - London is now and independent City State - then a peaceful breakup of the components of Empire is likely. And with Europe calling even more so.

Clearly being honest and open about the economics of free Scotland will destroy that aspect of the unionist position. Their defense must then become highly emotion,- a BELIEF in 'Britain' (even though the English have never given it a second thought), a BELIEF in the glories of the recent past (Glory days of Empire - watch for TV specials); Keeping UKania together WE ARE ALL ONE etc.etc.

In other words, the unionist defence of themselves is going to boil down to love of Britain, a belief that it actually exists, and a dismissal that Scotland cannot and should not exist.

137

Dunnie,

Canada 22/09/2007 16:08:10

#174 - Ayrshire laddie - just fine thanks but someone or something at the Hootsman is definitely playing silly buggers with my postings and e-mail delivery. I see you are in top form, as usual.

On that note, Col B did you get my messages re. your Uncle's visit to Calgary?

Methallions- you clever old dog, you!

I wondered the other night when a posting under the moniker ," Neil Thomas ", asked: " Where's Dunnie?"

Glad to know that you are not AWOL nor MIA.

I think we should nickname you "Dylan"

138

Faye,

22/09/2007 16:10:58

Simplyfying and reducing rights of the people?

Will it be a clear path for corporate 'dictatorships' to run rough shod with their wind developments all over the Scottish countryside, ignoring the people of Scotland, their views and soon to be their much diluted rights?

139

Faye,

22/09/2007 16:13:56

Note for all:

What is missing from the list?

Representation by a member of the public who has experienced the current planning system.

140

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 16:29:18

What's the difference between Alex and Wendy when it comes to expert advice?

Alex gets a think tank. Wendy gets a thick plank.

Only in my opinion of course

141

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 16:44:28

Labour (Scotland) are after the bandits who stole their thunder.

Wendy is recruiting a passe to catch up with them.

142

Andra, Dundee,

22/09/2007 16:50:27

#176 MacIan,
I don't think this debate has anything to do with Empire; although I admit there is an element of the argument being driven from each side by the secret objectives of each. Tommy Sheridan once said that he was not a Nationalist but he believed that Nationalism would give a greater opportunity for Socialism - i.e. he had more chance of getting what he wanted through fragmented UK.
In the same way, I am not hugely swayed either way by the economic arguments, although I believe that Seperation in itself will make no difference.
However I believe strongly in the need for a strong representation in the World and I believe this would be absent after fragmentation (i.e. a weaker England would hold less sway and Scotland would hold no sway at all).
I think we will be in a dangerous world for generations to come and a weak and fragmented Europe would make no contribution to the progress of freedom around the world. By contrast I believe the UK can potentially play a large role and I would like Scotland, myself, Gordon Brown etc all to play a part. We have much more opportunity to influence UK policy from within than without.
Of course if you believe that the UK is a pot of evil in the world (i.e. will always do nasty things like Iraq - if that is what you believe) then you may prefer a weaker fragmented UK.

143

Andra, Dundee,

22/09/2007 16:52:33

#178 karinm
#189 is my reply to you as well

144

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 16:55:20

Methalions, 188, this computer does not allow me the luxury of adding the accent to the last e.

145

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 17:00:23

189, Andra. Have you never considered that Scotland represents itself quite well when it is represented?

146

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 17:13:19

194. Dear dear. It was a play on words. Passe means over the hill. Think Arthur Midwinter.

147

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 17:14:50

194. Get it yet?

148

mona,

22/09/2007 17:22:59

178. Think you need too take stock of what you are saying, would you say jamie and andy murrey are proud scots, the answer is yes,ofcourse,well news flash, they are also proud to play davis cup tennis for Great Britain. There are people who will fight for what is scotlands rights but within the union.

149

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 17:27:16

197. Knew what you were up to. Just went along with it.

I do understand your mood swings. Seen them before.

150

MacIan,

22/09/2007 17:30:30

Andra, Dundee:

I've just realised there is another unionist platform - it's all sh**te and it doesn't matter.

151

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 17:32:08

198 - Fight for Scotland's right, but only within the Union? Well, thats might gracious and generous of you. Honestly, I think some of fellow country men and women just don't know their place, what with their lofty ambitions to have the same rights as any other nation. Well, happily for us and sadly for you, there are far more people who will fight for Scotland's right to exit the union.

152

morris,

Edinburgh 22/09/2007 17:32:10

7

If many of these eminent people supported the SNP it enhances the SNP case !

Your automatic assumption that this has been rigged is ridiculous.These people did not get where they are because they dance to whatever tune is being played!

The opposite is true .They agree with the SNP and achievement suggests its because they know what they are talking about, which would also explain your opposition!

153

morris,

Edinburgh 22/09/2007 17:35:00

33
Yours couldn't possibly be!

154

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 17:35:33

Methalions, my mother was born in Motherwell and she had mood swings. Never figured out if that was because she was born in Motherwell or she was my mother. I believe I can induce mood swings in people - but I'm damned if I'll apologise for being me. Too many Scots do that for themselves already.

155

Baillie Guthrie,

22/09/2007 17:35:49

A council of intelligent and diligent experts in their respective fields. Unpaid. What a breath of fresh air.

Bring back the Town Councils, County Councils and Provosts. Dismantle Ted Heath's Regional local government reforms.

A Scots Pound (we don't need groats and bawbees unfortunately)

Common sense prevails at last.

I can sleep at night knowing the country is in safe hands.

156

howyoudoingboy;,

22/09/2007 17:38:57

Jock Tamson

I imagined i saw Jock tamson..but it can't be so he threw his dummy out of his pram the other night and rushed of to the courier...That's what he said i heard him me self unless he was being "economical with the actualite"...umm

157

Alan B,

22/09/2007 17:39:28

The critisisms of this economic meeting seem to lack any intelligence and are politically motivated. It would seem to be a good idea, as was browns decision to allow an independent monetary policy group to set interest rates, reversing on of the poorest parts of britains economics policy (monetary policy) post war.

If u are going to make sensible critisisms it would surely be better to wait until the minutes of the meetings are printed. It would also be better to wait for a few such meeting to see if this group come up with good and specific ideas.

The issues to address would probably be things like:
-how do u get more start ups.
-how do u make them more successful and likely to succeed.
-how can we set an environment to growth both small and medium enterprises
-how could we make scotland a more desirable location of companies to locate in for high skilled jobs
-how do we improve our skill base.
(considering what previous governments have said it always amazes me how difficult it is to try to improve your skills, skills training always seems aim at those at the low level and seldom for those within work to improve themselves)
-does scotland transport infrasture causing problems
(i would say our lack of direct flights means that business would be mad to locate in scotland where international travel is involved)
-is the uk competition policy adaquate for scotland. eg take over policy etc
-what industries should we focus and niche ourselves in
-should we join the euro
-should the tax system be altered to improve our competitiveness.
-how can we better compete and niche ourselves to take a bigger share of financial market in relation to the city.

there is many more type of things.
-i would ask why glasgow had to compete with english cities for the mega casino. surely if it was desirable we should have just done it.
-do we really need so much paper work for small businesse

158

Andra, Dundee,

22/09/2007 17:40:06

#193 karinm
'Thatcher riding rough shod over Scotland'; 'London Labour'; etc - they are all SNP rhetoric.
Can you give me a glimpse of how you think Scotland would be now had Thatcher not rolled back the years of Socialist malaise? Would we be digging expensive coal; building subsidised ships; working a 3 day week; rationing electricity ? The Thatcher years were tough but the only alternative would have been to delay dastardly day; extend their pain; and prolong the misery (look at France and Germany now! - we are miles ahead).
I believe we have a bright future in Scotland because of the Thatcher liberalisation. The Tories are still a dirty word in this country - but I believe our lagging behind England will only cease when Scotland gets back to it's liberal thinking. The one massive hole in Scottish politics is a right of centre opposition / party of government (this is Ireland secret). The SNP and Labour are equally useless for our hopes of economic progress.

159

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 17:43:19

210 - Just a good job for Thatcher she had >£150 billion in oil revenues to pay for the mass unemployment resultant from, and to subsidise, her economic policy, without which the UK would of course have been a bankrupt state and the Thatcher economic miracle revealed as the a mirage, bankrolled by Scottish oil.

160

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 17:44:44

208, Dowdedoda? Are you suffering short term memory loss? I said that was not going to stop posting.

Remember? If you can't, I am sure AMtwa can drag up my post from last night.

161

Dunnie,

canada 22/09/2007 17:44:44

206 - Jock -

Mood swings? PMS? Post Marital Scotland?

Mood swings do sometimes lead to exits from "Unions".

162

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 17:48:52

212, Dunnie, I'll go for Post Marital. Had the t-shirt.

The rhythm method of contraception also leads to a union being broken. But in that instance it is before its usefulness has come to an end.

163

Andra, Dundee,

22/09/2007 17:48:59

#203 AyrshireScot
You seem deluded - mosts Scots share my vision for a successful Scotland within a strong UK and a liberal EU.
How can it be logical to come out of our political / economic / monetary Union with the UK; but yet stay in our Union with the EU. Both Unions largely serve the same purpose so it is stupid to argue against one and for the other at the same time.
I can only assume that Nationalists are blinkered by some sort of romance for the past.
We live in a great country and you are a thorn on our side.

164

howyoudoingboy;,

22/09/2007 17:51:25

#209 Alan B

I have a suspicion reading your post a large chunk of the of S.N.P will not exactly chime with the beliefs and values which you espouse.

165

,

22/09/2007 17:53:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 988223, Article id was mapped to record!
166

Dunnie,

canada 22/09/2007 17:53:48

215 - Crikey, Jock! Rhythm method? Next thing you'll be mentioning is chastity belts!

167

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 17:53:55

213 - Jock, you were clear, Howdedoodee just has a selective memory, like AM2.

216 - your own logic kippers your argument. Scotland in the EU would be exactly the same free trade union with the UK. It makes sense because we could control our own economy, stop the UK dumping WMD in our country, not send Scots to die in ruining Iraq, represent ourselves, stop the Uk trying to dump nucelar waste in our country and look after our own affairs.

A thorn in your side? I am afraid it the unionists who have, since May and the resurgent SNP and its brilliant start in government, had a thistle up their arses, and you don't appear to be liking it.

168

howyoudoingboy;,

22/09/2007 17:54:17

#213 Jock Tamson

you're probably right about AM2...I have very poor short term memory..especially when drunk.....

169

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 17:57:35

216 - PS, does it no fill you with Scottish pride to be in an SNP city?

170

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 17:59:51

219, Dunnie, never had a chastity belt. Mummy wanted me to wear one to primary school but she gave up when the surgical appliance shop pointed out the obvious flaw in the design when applied to males.

171

Dunnie,

canada 22/09/2007 18:02:31

226 - Jock - belts on others; not you!

172

Baillie Guthrie,

22/09/2007 18:02:31

How are we miles ahead of France and Germany please Andra 210.

I dare say they were quite glad they didn't have Frau/Madame Thatcher killing off their manufacturing industry.

I'm afraid that when the run on the pound starts it will be France and Germany who will have to extend a helping hand into the security of the Euro.

173

morris,

Edinburgh 22/09/2007 18:12:10

216

The assumption that membership of one, and not the other, is in some way illogical ,is the most idiotic notion possible!

Whether we are members (or not ),depends upon whether we benefit from inclusion(or not).

They are two different organisations ,and it shows !One is a membership, where small nations have a say at the top table, whilst still reflecting their size, but small nations can work together (collectively)to the mutual benefit of each one of a similar size,whereas we have an imperialist economic rip off from Westminster and the McCrone Report proves it beyond possible doubt, and any decisions taken are those which suit Westminster but hardly even consider , let alone benefit Scotland !
The only thing wrong here is that people still need this explained to them !
It could not be clearer than it is !

174

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 18:17:30

On topic and on a more serious note, I wonder what the communication frequency is between the members of the "round table". I can actually see this whole idea being positive. As Faye pointed out, where is the member of the public on the board?

That would be a nice appointment.

175

morris,

Edinburgh 22/09/2007 18:28:46

210
Since Scotland has been in this Union
since 1707 and Labour and Tory are the only parties to have governed Scotland in living memory,its physically impossible for it
to be anybody elses fault but these two Unionist parties.The SNP being in a minority devolved set up for a handful of months could not possibly be the reason !

Amazing how the Tory party (according to you) are reponsible for the few things that went well,but completely foreign to any of the numerous screw ups!

What you are saying is laughable!

The reason the Tories were removed was because they were anti Scotland,and Labour will soon follow suit.
The Liberal Democrats are just pointless in Scotland ,representing the people who recognise the failure of the other two Unionist parties,but have no idea what to do about it, or are for reasons which vary ,nwilling to do whats obvious and terminate the Union.

176

Andra, Dundee,

22/09/2007 18:33:10

#220 AyrshireScot
But we'd lose the harmonised tax system with the rest of the UK (the one that means you can't escape Scottish taxes by living / working / basing your business in England). Not that would be a bad thing for me - I could probably escape paying much tax.
My worry is that we would lurch to the left and could not control our economy since the calibre of civil servants and politicians that we would attract would be less than we have currently with the UK. You must admit that there are very few in Holyrood who have the ability required to get a job in the UK cabinet.
As for Nuclear waste – I doubt the UK’s waste will come here – but I ask you where will our waste go? And what about our share of the waste from Nuclear weapons. This topic is of no concern to me – it is simply scare mongering. I’m more concerned about having to sit in the dark with a rug on my knees on a night with no wind, and hoping not too many old folk die of cold when the Russians switch the gas off. Hopefully England would come to our aid with some Nuclear power (if we’ve not severed the national grid).
And I’m not concerned about your arguments on Iraq (refer to my post #189). Our boys are doing an essential job in Afghanistan and we’ll have to wait for a few years to see if the situation in Iraq progresses. I’m also enthusiastic now for Gordon Brown making some progress in Africa where the Scots are well respected.
The world is moving on, young folk in Scotland have a positive outlook and are less concerned with Independence. You guys will gradually be replaced by modern progressives with less parochial interest independence.

177

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 18:40:10

232 Andra - you said "My worry is that we would lurch to the left "
We would "lurch" wherever way the Scottish population voted. That's democracy - given we are now governed by the left of centre SNP and have been governed by the (claimed) left of centre Labour/ Lib dems, why is this so scary?

"As for Nuclear waste – I doubt the UK’s waste will come here " - you perhaps forget the two major attempts by the UK to dump nuclear waste, not just from the UK, but also from US, Germany and Japan in Scotland in the past 30 years - once in Ayrshire and once in the Highlands under the auspices of Nirex.

178

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 18:44:47

232, Andra Dundee. What is your definition of less parochial independence - independence in the UK?

179

Andra, Dundee,

22/09/2007 18:49:16

#231 morris
At fault for what exactly????
Scotland is a healthy prosperous constituent of the UK. Our GDP is only marginally behind the UK average and would be above the UK average were it not for London.
You are a victim of SNP brainwashing. There doom and gloom mongering is a self fullfilling prophecy in your head.
(PS you really pissed me off by saying the Tories are anti Scottish - there are many Tories in Scotland and they are as proud of Scotland and their culture as ANYBODY. That comment is Neanderthal.)

180

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 18:57:00

235 Andra - at fault for what?

1/10 children in Scotland living in severe poverty. Pensioners dying of hypothermia in the most energy rich country in Europe. Trident WMD on the Clyde. Scots soldiers dying for the ruination of Iraq. Life expectancy in areas of Glasgow below that in Iraq or Beirut. At fault for what? This is what would have been the richest country in Europe if it had controlled its oil wealth through the 70s-90s and yet it is an underperforming area of relatively high poverty, low growth and the only developed country with net population decline for decades? At fault for what? The appauling squandering of economic and human potential of Scotland.
As for Tories being pro-Scottish, yes, you (tories) did try out the poll-tax here first, devastate the steel and fishing industries, and drive Scotland backward while swallowing £150 billion in oil revenues. Tory love for Scotland really is tough love.

181

Alan B,

22/09/2007 18:58:52

#235 It is not the scottish tories that are anti scottish but an element of the tories in england. i would say there is an element even an element within their ranks that looks less than favourably upon much of the north of england.

The Thatcher period managed to create mass unemployment in the north of britain while a loads of money culture in the south. To many it was a move away from the one nation conservatism.

One of the big problems within the thatcher era was to even try to address the north south divide. And as such i would say the were somewhat anti scottish.

182

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 22/09/2007 19:14:39

Where is the AM2 division to tell us that we are too poor , too stupid and too imbecilic to run our own country?

His database shows that the GDP of Outer Mongolia in 2001, outperforms that of an independent Scotland in 2010 , as projected by Sir Lord Foulkes Midwinter, that well known non-economist with the abacus short of a few balls.

We need the insight of these forward thinking sages to deter us from the path of separation, divorce and isolation.

We deserve no more than poverty, squalor, despair and servility.

Please bring more weapons of mass destruction to our shores. Please invade more countries, and kill more millions of innocent civilians.

These policies bring jobs to our grateful drones, both in the military as cannon fodder, and to those who manufacture the inadequate arms and equipment supplied.

We are so grateful!

183

Bruce P,

Edinburgh 22/09/2007 19:14:40

I can see this being another publicity stunt from the SNP. They've generated more publicity than Madeleine McCann's parents have. It took all those people to come up with the idea that red tape costs money? Oooooooo! Let's see how many it takes to realize that our oil is running out and that we still haven't spent £1bn of our budget this year.
It's blatent that there is not a single member of the SP who is as politically minded or as smart as one in Westminster. That's why I never listen to what they have to say. It's all overly spinned, honeymood rubbish that a 10 yr old (considering the state of education these days) could come up with.
The north-south divide is vertainly a big problem in the UK. This is because the south of England has more people, more affluence and more productivity than the north. We just need a few Russian billionaires to buy Rangers & Celtic and shop at Pringle. If we look back to the days of empire we can see that it was manufacturing and heavy industry that played the key role in the north. Now that's all moved to China we need to think about services. As a country only needs one financial centre, and ours is London we need to think of something different. But we must remember that the state of the Scottish economy today is better than a chunk of Europe, and that the UK is Europe's fastest growing economy. Under Labour we have seen a huge investment in time and energy in kick-starting the economy again. There are a few problems yes, as we have seen with Northern Rock when something goes wrong it can go horribly wrong, and it's ironic that a northern company is the one suffering, but that aside Scotland just needs more ways of spending the money.
I think Scotland would be a lot richer without the Scottish Parliament. After all, the eyesore that it is cost £300m and government costs money. The SNP and their Parliament are part of the problem - Government = Red Tape. They are part of the problem they are trying to solve.

184

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 22/09/2007 19:15:50

#133 Best post of the day.

#145 Humour by-pass of the day.

185

Kirkton Johnny,

22/09/2007 19:24:44

Tastless reference of the day -239

186

Andra, Dundee,

22/09/2007 19:30:17

#234 Jock Tamson
Nationalism is the lowest form of politics. It is based on the assumption that everybody other than you own people are against you. It's the politics of old - we don't hate the Germans anymore; the Japs are no longer out to get us; we're even almost mates withe Russians; so why you think the English are out to get you is a complete mystery to me. The reality is that all of the people of the UK have common interests - there are very few things where compromise can not give a net gain for everybody. Young people in particular are not interested in the blame game anymore.

The idea that the North South divide was a political policy is complete nonsense. The reality is the the North was more heavily dependent on heavy industry and this is the industry that has been hardest hit by the development of lower wage economies. The south (and Edinburgh) are more involved in the the Financial sector and this has seen growth. The key is to replace the older low wage industries in the North with newer higher value industries. It is not a conspiracy - yet many people can't seed the wood for the trees.

187

Andra, Dundee,

22/09/2007 19:40:08

#236 AyrshireScot
So you are trying to tell me that poverty only exists in Glasgow because of the Union - why then does it exist in Liverpool, London and Dublin as well?? All you do is blame blame blame. Why has the poverty, population decline, poor health, etc only got bad after the arrival of Oil? You are grasping at straws. Your arguments have no foundation.

188

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 19:40:28

Andra. On the one hand you seem to fear a shift to the left. On the other hand you seem to fear a shift to the right. Are you for not shifting?

189

Baillie Guthrie,

22/09/2007 19:46:17

Andra Dundee. I wish you would stop talking about the reality of this and the reality of that. What do you know? Nationalism actually has served the Japanese very well since the second world war. They are masters of heavy industry and high technology. Commerce is war mate. Grow up.

I have asked you a question and so has Ayrshire Scot . You never answer. That is the reality.

190

The central scrutinizer,

o 22/09/2007 19:49:18

Cut this Red tape now,that's what i say.

191

Andra, Dundee,

22/09/2007 19:51:59

Grand - so you all accept my arguments that domestically not much would change with independence - so at least we've made some progress today.
But we Scots (me and Gordon Brown) need England's money to pay off the debts in the third world.
We mainly need to stick together to work on the Worlds problems - individually we can't do much but by working together we can make a difference.

192

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 19:53:28

karinm, if he does it in the middle of the dance floor I hope uses the rhythm method.

Being broad minded, I would cheer and not insist he was flung out. Call me old fashioned if you wish.

193

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 19:54:49

karinm. Zip up your dooda, put it away.....

194

The central scrutinizer,

o 22/09/2007 19:55:29

258 karinm
don't answer your own questions

195

Andra, Dundee,

22/09/2007 19:55:57

Sorry too many questions. The French and Germans are still trying to sort out their out of date Agriculture, never mind their heavy industry. And they have a lot less money saved for there pensions than us. The French have now just elected their Maggie Thatcher but he's got a big job in front of him.

196

The central scrutinizer,

o 22/09/2007 19:59:19

266 is your string being pulled again?

197

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 20:02:19

Before ---:
After :-

198

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 20:09:54

karinm. No. It's too near the water in the pan.

199

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 20:14:31

O
~~~~~~ooh
O

o
ah-------------
o

200

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 20:16:24

dammit, the os moved to the other side. Better leave the graphics to Methalions.

201

livilion,

livingston 22/09/2007 20:21:13

141. Upbeat

>>>the term "academics" applies to the following defined group : 'Academics or academic staff are the people who teach and undertake research at the University.'
Those on your list with the exception of Prof Halford Hewitt do not.<<<

No it doesn't,
Hamilton Academy eg has never been a university.

Main Entry: acad·e·my
Function: noun
Pronunciation: &-'ka-d&-me
Inflected Form(s): plural -mies
Etymology: Latin academia, from Greek Akademeia, from Akademeia, gymnasium where Plato taught, from Akademos Attic mythological hero
1 a : a school usually above the elementary level ; especially : a private high school b : a high school or college in which special subjects or skills are taught c : higher education -- used with the <the functions of the academy in modern society>
2 capitalized a : the school for advanced education founded by Plato b : the philosophical doctrines associated with Plato's Academy
3 : a society of learned persons organized to advance art, science, or literature
##########################
4 : a body of established opinion widely accepted as authoritative in a particular field
##########################

Main Entry: 1ac·a·dem·ic
Function: noun
Pronunciation: "a-k&-'de-mik
1 : a member of an institution of learning
********************************
2 : one who is academic in background, outlook, or methods
********************************
3 plural : academic subjects

Your assertion was that few of these 'academics'( the article itself makes no use of this term) has any experience of Scottish economics. You called them academics. As these are a group widely accepted as authoritative in a particular field I agree that they are indeed academics.
That few of them have first hand experience of the Scottish economy, I disagree.

>>>Good luck to the

202

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 20:27:12

Is this a pen I see before me?

203

Dunnie,

Canada 22/09/2007 20:29:32

Jock and karinm - get a room.

karinm- with respect, you are fast approaching verbal dump stage and reaching "Ilsa of the Scotsman Posting" status.

204

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 20:29:45

Fleming actually invented penis ill ane. The modern name is just an anglicisation.

205

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 20:30:30

Sorry, Dunnie.

206

morris,

Edinurgh 22/09/2007 20:32:26

235

The Conservatitive party are only just registering on the scale in Scotland because of PR and devolution,both of which the Tory party opposed.Thats not opinion,thats recorded in history at elections.Dont tell me that elections are not a test of public opinion !
Its particularly rich coming from Dundee! The first city in Scotland to return an all SNP representation at any level of government.
The Tory party are long dead in Dundee and pretty well everywhere north of the border and everybody knows it!Denying election results is an excersise in futility.

207

Dunnie,

Canada 22/09/2007 20:32:34

285 - Jock - that's a good boy.

208

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 20:34:14

Sorry, I was wrong. Alexander Fleming actually invented a cure for "Penis, ill ane".

Jockipedia.

209

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 20:39:00

And he put the umbrella companies out of business

210

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 20:44:16

289, Methalions. I'll remember that. Had my silly moment until the next one.

Being a big kid has it's moments.

Now, on topic, is there seriously anything wrong with the think tank?

211

livilion,

livingston 22/09/2007 20:45:14

131. Nikostratos
Why the nay saying?
Why should it hurt to ask for advice on how to grow our economy?
What exactly do we have to lose?

These are hard headed professionals who are being given a problem to solve:
Here are your tools, here is your problem.

Come up with solutions on how to grow the Scottish economy with the devolved responsibilties available.

You have four years, beginning five months ago.
Your first report must be presented in fourteen days time.

Sorry to be way behind on thread but the ISP is playing up tonight.

212

Col. Blimp IV*,

22/09/2007 20:47:14

#290. Jock Tamson

I thought that was a phallus iee!

213

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 20:50:15

Colonel, Sah! I thought it had gone away, ah!

214

Col. Blimp IV*,

22/09/2007 20:51:33

Jock

"Now, on topic, is there seriously anything wrong with the think tank?"

Rhyming Slang = Cultural Imperialism.

Albeit low grade and non malignant.

215

Dunnie,

Canada 22/09/2007 20:53:25

291 - karinm - if you don't know, then the comment kinda loses its edge.

293 - Meths - be a good boy now and don't encourage Jock. He's been rather naughty.

216

Dunnie,

Canada 22/09/2007 20:54:56

Meths - put the licor 33 away - now.

217

Dunnie,

Canada 22/09/2007 20:56:27

#299 - Col - maybe third message is the lucky one - did you get my message re. your uncle's trip to Calgary?

218

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 20:57:13

296, karinm, the SNP are maybe just beginning to get their hands on the kind of information which lets us know how much money is coming into and going out of Scotland but I doubt very much if they are being allowed to see the true picture.

But this collective of brains is the best thing we have seen since devolution, in my opinion.

219

livilion,

livingston 22/09/2007 20:57:36

230. Jock Tamson
Why members of the public?
Why not just have a dozen or taxi drivers?
They have the answer to everything, granted no two of them are the same but we could have a BBC phone in to decide which to choose.

220

Col. Blimp IV*,

22/09/2007 20:58:11

#304. Methalions

Oh aye - Prince Albert

Surely that is a fallacy?

221

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 21:00:02

Oh, 303, Dunnie. Punishment! Yes please. Know any horny tarts who would do that? If you do, I'll give you AMtwa's address.

222

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/09/2007 21:02:56

308, Livilion, because a member of the public would be able to give the opinion of the elector. Or non voter, as it may just so happen.

223

Col. Blimp IV*,

22/09/2007 21:03:20

Dunnie

Yes thanks, he will be taking a camera or two, it's a hobby of his and he likes to leave his surplus stuff behind for his grand-kids.

They won't be short of gloves scarfs and ski-masks when he goes home this time.

224

Col. Blimp IV*,

22/09/2007 21:14:46

#308. livilion

"Why not just have a dozen taxi drivers?"

One of them is an SNP councillor in Edinburgh, according to one of the papers, he drives around in a black-cab with a dirty great union jack painted on the side.

Norrrie Work - hang your head in shame.

225

Conan the Librarian,

22/09/2007 21:16:26

#301
Nice truck Methelions.
Do something else...go on....you know you want to.

226

Dunnie,

Canada 22/09/2007 21:20:24

310 - Jock - he would bore them to death - his death.

227

Dunnie,

Canada 22/09/2007 21:21:50

315 - MacShimmey - your last sentence would have been more than sufficient.

228

Conan the Librarian,

22/09/2007 21:22:48

#307
Jock
Spot on!
I just got online two weeks ago,been looking at this website and it is great.
Not the Scotsman but the posters!

229

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 21:38:17

317 - Dunnie - you are such a stickler for brevity? We have all been on the lash clearly

230

livilion,

livingston 22/09/2007 21:39:59

246. Andra, Dundee

You ask why poverty got bad in the UK after the arrival of oil?

It was always bad, since WWI the UK economy existed on handouts to survive.

There was no money to invest in modernising plant or to develop our technological advantages to the market place.
It was always the standing joke that the UK invented everything and never had anything to show for it.

In Scotland if the public had not been duped it could still be the Clyde building cruiseships and liners like QE2 today instead of Germany, France, and Italy.

We would've had the money to develop jet aircraft like concord or the harrier jump jet to the next generation instead of dumping them because the Chancellor of the day had more pressing priorities, like paying out dole money.

Projects like the BP hydrogen and carbon capture powerstation at Peterhead would be being built and recovering the carbon output of 400,000 cars a year, not put off because of red tape from the Scotland Office


Remember the advent of Monaterism, Reganomics, Thatcherism, 'there's no such thing as society', the destruction of UK manufacturing industry and heavy engineering to ensure a Tory government would never be brought down by their unions like Ted Heath's was?

John Pilger recently released a documentry on the USA's activities in Latin America.
As I watched it a chill went up my spine when I saw how similar it was to our experience here in the UK with Thatcherism/Blairism and Oil.
http://warondemocracy.net/

231

Dunnie,

Canada 22/09/2007 21:45:06

319 - Ayrshire laddie - sorry for the compulsive editorialising - but as a freelance writer and communications consultant, I can't help myself.

Good night to all. Must be off to a neighbourhood BBQ - don't have to drive!!

if you must -be safe. Cheers.

232

livilion,

livingston 22/09/2007 21:49:24

311. Jock Tamson,
Just for information Jock, does the Bank of England have members of the public as non-voting directors to advise of public opinion on fiscal policy such as say interest rates, or baling out mortgage lenders who find themselves in shtook?

If so how are these individuals selected, is it on eg ability, availabilty, neutrality club membership, or politics?

233

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 21:58:48

323 - Dunnie, was only joking. Didn't know you were a writer. Hope your BBQ is fun. TG Night.

234

The central scrutinizer,

o 22/09/2007 22:04:01

fly free

235

,

22/09/2007 22:23:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 988870, Article id was mapped to record!
236

Col. Blimp IV*,

22/09/2007 22:26:10

#246. Andra, Dundee

The Nationalism that you refer to is the Jingoistic Imperialist kind that built your British Empire, how altruistic of you to eschew it, now it has outlived it's usefulness.

It bears no resemblance whatever to the nationalism of the SNP and never having met CASEY PURVIS, I'm not sure that I know anyone who thinks the English are out to get us.

The English are no impediment to the future prosperity of the Scots, it is the Empire's Klingons.

237

AyrshireScot,

22/09/2007 22:46:18

346 Karin news just in

Conservative
41.2%
Labour
4.1%
Lib-Dem
1.0%
SNP
53.6%
Other
0.0%
AM2 -
But AM2 may be right, online polls not the most reliable. I am now knackered, having attempted a brief rebuttal to your sophistic arguments on the other thread! This constructive debate is tiring. Can I not just go back to the name calling?

238

,

22/09/2007 22:47:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 988912, Article id was mapped to record!
239

Col. Blimp IV*,

22/09/2007 22:59:43

#333. AM2, Glasgow ...............
...."Too true. Yesterday's analysis of May voting patterns found the following."

OVER 60s:
36% SNP
29% Labour

UNDER 30s:
37% Labour
24% SNP

Is the absence of your customary link a trap?

If so......You got me!

Only 29% of the undead voting Labour flies in the face of everything I ever leaned in 30yrs of canvassing.

240

Col. Blimp IV*,

22/09/2007 23:09:50

"I've voted Labour a' ma day's son an' so did ma faither, a ken thit they're crap, bit ye canae chienge the habit o' a lifetime."

Somebody actually said that to me.

241

49th State,

Highlander Heritage Room 22/09/2007 23:35:17

THe Scots have a socialist economy!

242

Winged Messenger,

23/09/2007 00:10:52

#357
I'd imagine that the percentage of under 30s who actually vote is far lower than over 30s, so these stats are pretty negligible anyway.

Plus, as we all know, people get wiser as they grow older. These young innocents will learn in time what is good for them.

243

PiedraSanta,

Alba gu bragh 23/09/2007 00:19:53

358. Karinm: you betcha - a lot of intelligent and energetic people have been hard at work. I love it.

244

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA 23/09/2007 00:47:12

84. Everyman /

Oh My DOG u sound like an extreme pompus a*s

Critical Thought is but one component of THOUGHT.

Thought was and is the great leap forward in human intelligence.

Yet Pres. Bush used intelligence information and caused a great leap backwards for America..

GC

245

Dunnie,

Canada 23/09/2007 00:49:27

karinm - I admire your zeal - but please, either combine your thoughts into one concise and hopefully, coherent statement or take some ridolin.
Postings #352-356 for example. Struth!

246

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA 23/09/2007 00:50:22

357. Col. Blimp IV*
Sir,

do you live on a desert island in the Southern Ocean.

Just curious , has a coco nut fallen on your head.

GC

247

Dunnie,

Canada 23/09/2007 00:54:08

#327 - Ayrshire laddie - no worries. Neighbourhood BBQ was magic. Once the snow flies,we all tend to turn into hermits. Good to have a laugh over a bevvie or two.

Cheers, Dunnie.

248

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 23/09/2007 04:35:54

We are now seeing real Scottish People making real DECISIONS for Scotland, and not the unionist party members (I wish to have promotion minister)poloticians who were only looking after their pay cheques. Let,s move forward!

249

Riley Hamish,

edina 23/09/2007 07:31:53

KARINM
You need to get out more Hen !!

250

coby,

scotland 23/09/2007 11:39:41

eh!

251

coby,

scotland 23/09/2007 11:49:25

WELL DONE TO THE S.N.P IN USING THE RECENT THATCHER/BROWN MEETING IN THERE FUTURE ADS.THIS WILL OBVIOUSLEY BE A TRIBUTE TO DEAR MAGGIE FOR HER GREAT IDEA IN BRINGING IN THE DE-REGULATION OF THE TRANSPORT INDUSTRY ALLOWING THE S.N.P DONOR BRIAN SOUTER TO RAKE IN HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF POUNDS OF {ENGLISH} TAX-PAYERS MONEY THAT HE THEN GAVE TO A PARTY THAT WANTS TO BREAK UP THE UK ? ISNT IT FUNNY HOW 1 WEEK SOUTER BACKS THE S.N.P WEEKS LATER MATHEWSON COMES ON BOARD . THEN GO TO THE STAGECOACH WEBSITE TO READ THAT MATHEWSON IS A NON EXCEC DIRECTOR OF SOUTERS COMPANY . TALK ABOUT JOBS FOR THE BOYS CLIQUE..

252

Walter Ego,

Durness 23/09/2007 14:09:00

367

Come on, Scotindy - no procrastination, no prevarication - what about the Council Tax freeze?

253

Home again,

Fraserburgh 23/09/2007 17:27:10

WOW: a HEAVY list of national and international economic thinkers have been gathered to assist the SNP. Congratulations to Alex Salmond and his crew for gathering together such a group.
Why if the SNP goes on like this, pretty soon Scotland will have what it hasn't had for centuries - a real SENSE of ITSELF!

254

Graham Simpson,

Vancouver Canada 23/09/2007 17:52:52

#31 FFC...thank you for doing the Scotsman's job in providing a mini bio on each of the council members.

The insights to the economies of Scandinavia, the US Ireland, Europe, Middle East, Africa, Hongkong and yes...even England... from those council members with connections there... will be potentially very useful.

Good to see Scotland's government reaching out to the world rather than waiting on permission to act from party apparatchiks in Whitehall.

255

livilion,

livingston 23/09/2007 18:11:22

369. Rain Man annoyer of bus queues.

haw pal, you awriight?
ah mean you awright?

You looking at me, ah'm just sayin you awright?


 

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