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Scottish budget may be cut under a Tory government

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Published Date: 15 May 2009
SCOTLAND'S funding could be slashed under a future Conservative government, shadow chancellor George Osborne strongly hinted yesterday.
In his speech to delegates at the Scottish Tory party conference in Perth he said Scotland will have to take its share of the pain and suggested the Barnett formula may be effectively scrapped.

While Tory leader David Cameron has recently promised to keep the Barnett formula as it is currently based, on population numbers, Mr Osborne made it clear in the future it would be based on need.

"Every need of every part of the UK must be fairly assessed," he said.

This could mean a massive reduction in the Scottish block grant.

He blamed Labour's "age of irresponsibility" and warned that it would mean an "age of austerity" in the years to come.

He promised that cuts would not hit front-line services, adding that quangos would be looked at.

"If someone wants to pay the head of a UK quango more than the prime minister of the day gets paid, then they will have to come and justify it to the chancellor of the day," he said.

"I will not balance the budget on the backs of those who work on the front line of our public services."

He also took a swipe at UK Labour ministers and SNP Scottish ministers for failing to talk to one another. He promised better communication with the Scottish Parliament and pledged he would send a Treasury minister to talk to MSPs when they present their first budget.

"This is so we can engage in a dialogue across a committee room, instead of a shouting match across an entire country," he said.

Labour claimed that the speech proved that Scotland's public services would be in trouble if the Tories win the next election and condemned Mr Osborne for calling investment in public services "a tragedy".

Labour MP Anne McGuire said: "Nurses, doctors, teachers across the UK deliver a first-class service, and for the Tory shadow chancellor to claim that increased spending on hospitals, and schools is a tragedy is very telling.

"To hear Mr Osborne's apparent relish in cutting money from public services was chilling."

Tory delegates also heard that a future Conservative government will replace Trident. Mr Cameron had recently said the £20 billion Trident replacement would have to be reviewed.

However, shadow defence secretary Liam Fox said yesterday that "a submarine based nuclear deterrent will be replaced". However, he avoided using the word Trident.

In the home of the Black Watch regiment he condemned the UK government for sending soldiers ill-prepared and equipped to Afghanistan and Iraq. He also attacked cuts in defence spending but did not commit the Tories to building the two new aircraft carriers. Instead all defence spending will be part of a strategic defence review.

The uncertainty is bad news for ship builders on the Clyde where part of the aircraft carriers will be built.

Both Mr Osborne and Mr Fox, who have not been in the front line of criticism over expenses, apologised for the behaviour of MPs including some of their colleagues.

Mr Osborne said Mr Cameron was the only person who had shown any leadership in trying to clean up politics.

Goldie wants new mums to get weekly home help

MOTHERS should receive a minimum of six hours a week support until their child is five, Scottish Conservative leader Annabel Goldie said yesterday.

She wants home helps to provide support to families to mend the country's "broken society".

Although the party has no mandate in Holyrood, she said it would work to push through such a policy. She did not reveal the potential cost. At the party's conference in Perth Ms Goldie said:

"This broken society is pervasive. We would encourage parental responsibility and we would end the culture of long-term dependency.

"Children deserve a decent start in life, so a guaranteed level of support will be offered to mothers before their baby is born and in the first two weeks of a baby's life we guarantee a minimum of six hours' help in the home. This level of support will last until the child is five." Ms Goldie hopes the policy will go through at the next budget.

Dr Dean Marshall, chairman of the BMA Scottish GP Committee, said: "Health visitors are an integral part of the primary care team working with GPs providing essential care for new mums and children.

"BMA Scotland welcomes the Scottish Conservative announcement on giving children the best start in life."




Page 1 of 1

 
1

danbob,

15/05/2009 00:19:25
It looks like Cameron will pick up where Thatcher left off.
2

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 15/05/2009 00:45:36
Say good-night Annabel, your career just got a lot murkier. What's next, abolishing the wearing of tartan again?
How to win friends and influence people with two elections looming.
3

Columba doing the Rumba,

15/05/2009 00:45:45
God bless the Union dividend.
4

hoblar,

15/05/2009 00:55:03
Don't send our taxes, raised in Scotland to Westminster in the first place.

Then. whether unionist labour oe unionist tory, (the difference being red or blue pants, and I am colourblind) then they CAN'T dock OUR money! Put OUR money where we want it put to suit ourselves and save our expenses by NOT sending to the British Treasury.

Vote for that and then westminster can't shaft us when they make a mess of the uk economy.


5

hoblar,

15/05/2009 00:58:28
"The Scottish budget is BOUND to be cut after the next UK General Election, whoever wins, perhaps by as much as £6bn -or 20% of the present Holyrood dole."

Aye.

Thanks to the rubbishness of the uk system of government.

Let's not send our hard earned cash to England then, there is really no need to do so, keep it here and remove the middlemen who can't work out expence claims let alone run an economy.
6

,

15/05/2009 00:58:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

Forward not Back,

15/05/2009 01:29:56
Quite right for the Tories to highlight that public spending across the UK needs to be cut, for the simple reason that the UK needs to avoid defaulting on sovereign debt.

For Labour to parrot about "public investment" is rubbish - yes, they spent more but they have created a "non-jobocracy" of pen pushers and enforcers rather than anything worthwhile. Is that "public investment"?

As for the Nats, I would respect their position more if they were honest and said that an independent Scotland would not be wealthier overnight as they imply. It could be in future but there would be some necessary austerity on Independence Day, not least because Scotland would have to take up its share of UK debt.
8

Iainbroch,

15/05/2009 01:30:01
Ah the promised Union Dividend! Um is that not what Labour are doing anyway? So Labour Tory no difference.

Actually there is - The Tories are at least being honest about reaming us where as Labour always lie about it.
9

hoblar,

15/05/2009 01:38:59
I don't need to google Hume (or Scotus) to know that sending my taxes to westminster from Scotland means that once out of my hands, the economic mishaps (and they are a plenty) that are down to westminster's shortcomings, will be see my taxes deducted accordingly...so I say:

"Keep our tax revenue raised in Scotland.....in Scotland.

Cut out the middleman.

You should stick to your anti SNP kindergarten nihilism mate, you fail miserably to get close to having voters queuing to vote Labour right enough.

But then failure is what you are about judging by your woeful efforts and snide take at commentary on Scottish politic when the union isn't involved, and that will be thankfully less often each time an inhabitant of Scotland gets to vote.

Ta and

















Slainte
10

Edward,

15/05/2009 02:18:02
Its time to put an end to the Union
Its finished! Independence Now
11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 15/05/2009 02:21:57

Does anyone think that the "Tory's" can Win-Over Scotland ever again, is more to the Point!
It could be a 'could-be', since the sleaze of the "expense's" scenario, but somehow I do not think so!
A Nice thought for change, but I fear Labour will not be shifted, and certainly not by an Independent Scotland, after all the new legislation's that the SNP have imposed on our majority of the voting public.

12

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 15/05/2009 02:26:30


If you want to Win an Election, do not 'stab-in-the-back', the ones that feed you!

A Moral that some could do with Learning!



13

Steve A.,

15/05/2009 02:39:21

The onion is dead and with Mr 7% leading labour into electoral oblivion I'm looking forward to the day when the Scottish people don't have to listen to the utter garbage that the onionists spew forth!

The onionists are all running in the same direction ...straight towards an electoral cliff.....I say !

KEEP GOING ........KEEP GOING..........KEEP GOING :)
14

!Ya basta!,

15/05/2009 02:54:56
This is of no suprrise.

To those of you too young to remeber the Tories of the 80's, listen to the old boys and gals who will tell you the Tories will be far worse than Labour. It's true.

In fact, as the financial crisis and expenses row both show, the whole business-politcal class (who are really different parts of the same thing) are in varying degrees corrupt. They also vary from those that think they are doing the right things but are in fact misguided in believing in the current "system", to those that know the system benefits the few over the many and are keen to keep it that way.

History will laugh in the face of the arrogance of the neo-cons who believe history has already ended. Our 19th century institutions are crumbling, and good riddance to them though, they served us well for a long time.

Ideas for social progress for the future are now going to come from outwith the West, which will make it harder for us to deal with unless we can rewind to a time before the Enlightenment project and rediscover some old and long lost truths from our past about structures for social organsiation and bottom-up power.

The 21st century will be a challenge for the West as it is forced to live by some of its own dictums and thereby discover their true unpalatable nature.

It's time to sacrifice a few sacred cows such as parliamentary democracy (which is a sham) and neo-liberalism. The vast majority hate the idea of revolution for obvious reasons but it seems to me we are moving towards it unless we change.

The broad dictum, "evolve or die", stolen by the Neo-cons and applied to suit their narrow economic fundamentalism, is an undertow that is getting stronger.




15

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 15/05/2009 03:19:29

Analogy!

When I was 18, and by Law allowed to vote, it was exciting to be able to vote, so I did vote.
Current affairs were important to me, as they are now, but after the age of 40, Voting is not as important, and the thought to be be bothered to vote, is less important, as in "well I will not change anything", why bother to vote?
I will not be voting for any elections now, (I don't think)
This being the case, our Majority of Voters are our youngest ones, and what have the SNP done?

Yes attacked them in every way Possible!

"No Smoking", "No Drinking", "Super Taxing of Chocholate"

The List goes on, one thing for sure, the SNP will not go on!, if this is the attitude!

Mark my Words!, the Majority of our voters, who are in the age group of 18-40, will have had enough, of the Nanny State, telling them how to lead their lives, and what they can do, and cant do!

This will = Independent Scotland, is a 'Fairy-Tail'



16

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 15/05/2009 03:23:11



Do Not respct the ones that feed you, this is what it will lead to!




17

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 15/05/2009 03:34:52


The SNP Will not take power of Scotland, and this is the fact!, on the other hand the "Tory's" may be a could be!

And with that!, Mark my Words, What I say will come to pass!



18

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 15/05/2009 03:41:36

On my last note, my disgust!, is the attacking of our young, no more, no less!

"Vote for us Please!", but if you want to have a wine, we will, 'cut-off-your-tail'!

What logic is that?



19

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 15/05/2009 03:47:39


"You will suffer for the Few, because you are the Many!"

What Logic is That!?


20

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 15/05/2009 03:50:28



Hence,...
..."The Many", that may of voted SNP, become the "Few!"




21

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 15/05/2009 03:53:40



AND! That my friends, will be the "Logic!"


22

Steve A.,

15/05/2009 04:22:23
25
Charles

Scraping barrels is a most illogical pastime and that's not a maybe....could be !
23

urchin,

15/05/2009 04:22:26
One does not need a crystal ball to see who will be the future Government of England,it will be the Tories,and if one expects a progressive social Government they will be sadly let down.This Tory gang are the idolisers of the Thatcher years and her way of doing things.And poor old Scotland will be feeling the full on onslaught of these right wing ideologes.
24

W Smith,

Middle East 15/05/2009 05:56:54
Cuts will only affect the spongers in Scotland's Public Sector.

GOOD.

For the Scots in the private sector it won't make much difference.

Mr Cameron needs to cut corporation tax ASAP.
25

urchin,

15/05/2009 06:17:43
28 Tax cuts will be a headline banner for the Tories come this election, nothing new in that.Serve the interest of those who seek self interest and hang the rest.
The interest of the few in isolation from the many only causes social unrest and division.The Scottish people should have control of their own taxes and financial future in stead of going cap in hand for a hand out from a Parliament that has in the past done very little to the betterment of the Scottish people.
26

FTH22inarow,

15/05/2009 07:00:33
Scorched earth policy towards Scotland again, we should dump England now!
27

Media at One,

15/05/2009 07:01:08
I tend to agree with the Tory point of view - This will not mean disaster for Scotland, but quite the opposite -
28

FTH22inarow,

15/05/2009 07:02:31
27 I thought imbeciles would have been a better choice of words rather than ideologies, jeeze even the USA has woken up to these idiots.
29

FTH22inarow,

15/05/2009 07:13:42
34 why we should give a ertha kitt about England I just don't understand, we have never voted Tory in over 50 years in Scotland, and yet been Run by them for 30 odd years of it against our will, democracy my a**e
30

Pattester,

Galashiels 15/05/2009 07:40:13
If this is how the Tories are thinking then it's time we split away from the greedy Bast---- in London and go it alone, but rather that just live of the taxes raised in Scotland start charging the English for all the electricty, gas and oil that we send down to them daily we would be able to live like MP's with second homes and big expence claims if that were the case.
31

hibbyspurs,

15/05/2009 08:17:05
Good grief, the amount of posters on this site who live in cloud cuckoo land are unreal....

NEWS FLASH.....

Labour have bankrupted this country after 12 years of total mismanagement of our economy.

The conservative party tells us that Scotland like the rest of the UK will have to share the burden of repaying the eyewatering amount of national debt Labour has committed this country to.

Make no mistake you dewy eyed nationalists that either in or out of the union Scotland will still have to pay its fair share of current UK national debt back along with England, Wales & Northern Ireland.

As for tha Labour luvvies on here who now point to the dreaded spectre of the Tories cutting spending on public services, you all convienetly forget that if it wasnt for the mess Labour have got us into they wouldn't need to tell us it's going to be hard & painful for years to come but hey ho when it is you'll blame the nasty tory monsters for cutting public spending even though it's Labours fault (as usual)

However, the biggest most unbelieveable thing about this thread is the hypicrosy on it. All the time posters bleat on about how politicians never tell it like it is and duck the questions.... Well here are politicians telling you truthfully how it's goiong to be probably knowing that these statements wont be PR friendly and you slam them for being truthful about the god awful mess we're all in!!!

All becuase you try and hide behind "England's the big bad nasty brother, which the tory party is based on".....

Basically, Get over it, remove the great big chips off you shoulders which are an embarresment to so many realistic Scots & get a life eh?
32

,

15/05/2009 08:23:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
33

smokey joe 1,

15/05/2009 08:31:48
36.
Enlighten your thick head by veiwing Diomhair.
Ignorance is no excuse for posting rubbish.
34

hibbyspurs,

15/05/2009 08:39:19
37 & 38

Truth hurts eh boys?

Ohhhh & 37, your right you can express any view you wish and this I have no problem with, however I do have a problem with people who make their opinions through totally blinkered eyes & who just deride & decry another point of view without even being remotely open to it in the first place.

as for joe at #38.....

Thick head? Dont think so my learned friend..... Master of politics and economics actually.....
35

Chris Price,

Sidcup 15/05/2009 08:46:02
The Barnett formula was always an anachronism and paid by an English electorate made guilty by mention of unnamed deeds against the Scotch. Given the mess this SCOTTISH government has made of the economy, this is payback for the English. Like it or lump it, the Scotch deserve it. McBroon and McEyebrows are your kinsmen. YOU keep them - we don't want them.
36

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 15/05/2009 08:51:17
39

Yes, sometimes the truth hurts. However, in your case there is no truth.

Master of politics and economics actually.....my @rse is what you meant, eh? People who declare such qualifications etc usually have none at all and are called blowhards.

Dave from Barra - PhD, Mphil, MSc, BSc, HND, ESP, CAT, DOG, WAG
37

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/05/2009 09:00:45
39 You have already been told that the roots of this particular recession lie with Margaret Thatcher and her greed is good mentality. Who financialised the country whilst destroying manufacturing industry, and who ushered in the era of the property and share owning democracy ? Who sold off the family silver and used Scotland's oil money for a mess of pottage ? The Tories did. Labour just followed in their wake. You might be daft enough not to realise that, but most of us older hands do. That's why we're voting SNP.
38

hibbyspurs,

15/05/2009 09:01:46
I'm sorry but I was reviewing the posts on this thread and was coming to the conclusion that perhaps I had been a little harsh in my post at #36 on many posters.

Then I "refreshed" and read post #40......

What planet are you on Chris?

This SCOTTISH government (as you put it) was legally elected by the entire UK and when Tony Blair stood down as leader of that party his replacement was put in place by the mechanisms widely accepted for the appointing of party leaders & as now leader of the party in Westminister with the most ELECTED MP'S he rightly took his place as PM.

Your argument that it is Scotlands fault for the current economic problems is ridiculous beyond belief. You make this assertion simply because the PM & Chancellor are sitting Scottish MP'S?

What garbage, if England had not returned Labour MP's which helped to give them their current majority then Brown & Darling would not pbe in the position they are in.

It is people like you who drive a lot of otherwise reasonable people to want an Independent Scotland.

I think most on here realise I'm a unionist, however comments like yours are enough to make even such a staunch unionist as I nauseous.
39

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/05/2009 09:05:47
The return of the Tories: James Clappison, MP for Hermsmere, formerly Cecil Parkinson's seat, claimed a tital of £102,241 in second home expenses - despite the fact that he ownes 24 of them. This man is - unbelievably - the Shadow Minister and spokesman for Work and Pensions.

Yes, the same DWP which administers benefits for the countries poor and unemployed. Whom the Tories have no problem stigmatising as scroungers and parasites.

That's the Tories for you, hypocrites all.
40

hibbyspurs,

15/05/2009 09:06:44
#41

Believe what you like mate - Perhaps it was a little "indulgent" of me to disclose my "credentails", however they are true and I do not like being referred to as a "thick head" as I worked very hard for my qualification.

However I am not attempting to put myself in a position of "I know more than/ am better than you" & I accept your point.

For reference to the sort of post I was getting at in my original post I would hold post #40 up as a shining example.
41

WL,

Livingston 15/05/2009 09:17:23
At least they tell us before the election. We don't need the Conservative & Unionist Party in Scotland!
42

hibbyspurs,

15/05/2009 09:19:19
#42

I dont have an issue with what your saying here and agree tha Margret Thatcher's government did cut public spending and scaled down industry but the early 80's were hard times were they not (I was still very young then)?

Cuts had to be made at this time and yes I would agree that Scotland did seem to suffer out of proportion (going on what I've read & anecdotal evidence).

I fully agree that labour have robbed the country blin since 1997 especially with the sale of the countries gold reserves.

However my point is that people need to realise that what the tories are currently saying is true, hard times await after Labours glut of spending and IF they form the next government (in Westminster) they will need to cut public spending and most likely people working in the public sector will lose jobs as they try to balance the UK's books. Much like Thatcher had to do between 1979 & 1983?????????

It may surprise you to know that I've been impressed with the SNP in minority government at Holyrood, so much so that at the last Scottish election my list vote went to the Conservative party whilst my Constiuency vote went the way of the SNP in an attempt to assist in the removal of the sitting Labour MSP, I know have an SNP MSP.

I have admired the willingness of the SNP to work with the other parties (they've had to) but let me ask you.... Which party has given the SNP the support it's needed when it's needed it to push things through by getting concessions from them? The Conservative party.

Surely this shows the tories are prepared to work with the SNP for a better Scotland? Unlike LAbour who just sit and b1tch from the sidelines.
43

hibbyspurs,

15/05/2009 09:24:15
my post at #47 is a little contradicatory... The paragraph:

"It may surprise you to know that I've been impressed with the SNP in minority government at Holyrood, so much so that at the last Scottish election my list vote went to the Conservative party whilst my Constiuency vote went the way of the SNP in an attempt to assist in the removal of the sitting Labour MSP, I know have an SNP MSP."

This makes no logical sense, what I meant was that I am glad I helped to give the SNP a chance of minority government in Scotland by voting for them in my constituency seat in the first place and that I have been impressed since they have been in government in Scotland.

I retract the original paragraph as a wee bit silly!
44

smokey joe 1,

15/05/2009 09:27:03
40.
"Given the mess this SCOTTISH government has made of the economy, this is payback time for the English".

Please tell, how have the Scottish gvmnt made a mess of an economy they have no power over?
BTW Brown is north Bitish and is not welcome in Scotland.
45

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/05/2009 09:28:20
47 any government is going to have to raise taxes and slash spending. We all know that. My point is that the Tories try and claim moral authority over fiscal matters by blaming Labour for the current state of affairs. Yes, they are to blame, but so are the Tories in equal measure.

And when we talk about cutting jobs in the public sector (which actually means reducing services) let's remember it wasn't the public sector that got us into this mess. Taxes will rise and services will be slashed to pay for the banking bail out. The roots of that crisis definitely lie with the Tories.
46

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 15/05/2009 09:30:14
The Scottish budget has been cut under the SNP Scottish Government. Ask the Councils.
47

urchin,

15/05/2009 09:32:05
No matter your political persuasion,if Scotland has to have its belt tightened at least be it at a Scots hand, rather than a lip service outsider.
48

The Strategist,

15/05/2009 09:38:18
I see that the London crossrail project is going ahead at a cost of £15bn. Why isn't it being cut?
49

John1,

Stirling 15/05/2009 09:41:07
The incoherence level on this thread is the worst I have ever encountered, and that's saying something. Heaven help Scotland if any of these people are involved in its government. Fortunately this is unlikely.
50

hibbyspurs,

15/05/2009 09:41:35
#50

I agree with large parts of your post there apart from the bit where (again) you blame the tories for the banking crisis.

I'm not going to disagree that the Tories were all for deregulation, however Broon took it far too far.

He gave the BofE the power to adjust interest rates independently of the government & this was good (IMO).

However what he did next was just totally off the scope.... He created the FSA & deprived the BofE the power to control & regulate the financial sector, instead he left a tothless lion in charge of it.

He changed the rules for the better then took the real referee off the playing field which resulted in chaos 7/8 years later.

Had the BofE been left to regulate the financial sector, RBS, HBos, NR et all would in all likelyhood never have come close to collapse.

I therefore disagree that the banking crisis is in any real way the former tory governments fault.

BTW, this is much better, at least it's a reasonable debate? Perhaps it's just the "night owls" who post between 00:00 and 07:00 who post most of the gibberish on here?
51

hibbyspurs,

15/05/2009 09:43:17
#52

You mean Like Gordon Brown & Alistair Darling?
52

Liz,

Edinburgh 15/05/2009 09:50:10
Gordon Brown has made such a horlicks of the UK economy that whoever wins the next election is going to have to do some hefty cutting back of public spending across the whole UK. The comparisons with the end of the last Labour adminstration are interesting.

I read a figure that to cover the Governments recent borrowing we either need to cut back public spending by 20% or raise income tax by 8p in the pound (or the equivalents in 'stealth taxes').

At least with the Tories we may see a return to a real and productive economy rather than taxing everyone to excess to pay for an ever increasing number of 'non jobs' in a bloated public sector. We need a real economy not one based on borrowing and debt.

Hopefully they will cut back on the levels of benefits which currently allow those who do not work to have standards of living very much higher than some of us poor sods who still do.
53

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/05/2009 09:51:51
55 Yes OK concensus can break out. Brown took the deregulation process started by the Tories and accelerated it in a way that the Tories never dreamed of. The way that he accelerated a lot of their other policies like PFI etc. Well, the buck has stopped and it's stopped on Labours watch.

I can't, however, see the Tories being much better. Although I reckon if the Scottish Tories were to break with the Westminster Party they would actually get a lot more votes.
54

Liz,

Edinburgh 15/05/2009 09:57:23
#50
"And when we talk about cutting jobs in the public sector (which actually means reducing services) "

No it doesnt. Maybe it will lead to a more efficient system. Labour have thrown money at the NHS and education for example over the past few years and all we seem to have created is a swarm of administration and petty management focused on hitting 'targets' that do not seem to have achieved anything.
After the money that has been spent one might expect a slightly better return than we have seen recently. Kids are still leaving school unable to read and write and patients are still treated like (or worse than) cattle in hospitals.

Just have a look at the Guardian society jobs section and have a look at some of the eye wateringly high salaries for jobs for which we have at best questionable need.
55

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/05/2009 09:57:51
57 the Government's recent rise in borrowing was to cover the banking bail outs. It wasn't to service the traditional public sector. And running an economy based on borrowing and debt wasn't the fault of the public sector either, although public services will pay the price.

If we are to see a return to a real and productive economy we are going to have to do something about supporting manufacturing industry, hardly a Tory virtue is it ? They slashed and burned manufacturing industry in favour of a financialised economy.

I have no doubt that the Tories will cut back on benefits. Especially in a time of rising unemployment. They have previous for that, and of course it won't affect them personally will it.
56

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/05/2009 10:01:50
59 why would I search the Guardian ? Search the Scottish papers. That's where we live.

I agree that there are a lot of non jobs in the public sector. They are management jobs. They were created due to the Tory (yes them again) mantra which believed that private sector working poractices would improve public sector performance. And so they brought in a load of box tickers and internal markets etc etc to make that happen.

Didn't work.

But don't expect the Tories to admit that. They will give us more of the same.
57

Liz,

Edinburgh 15/05/2009 10:11:46
#61
But you talk like Labour have just taken over?! They have been in power for 12 years if anything we now have even more of these box ticking jobs than we ever did as Labour uses them to claim they have met one of their many spurious targets. Yet record numbers of children are leaving school now without the basics - if so much money was being spent efficiently how is this possible?

Also if you are looking for a job one might think you would look in all the available places. There are plenty of Scottish jobs in the Guardian so I am not sure what your point is - we don't all just read the Daily Record.
58

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 15/05/2009 10:14:26
Why doesn't the Scotsman also have a headline:

Scottish Budget IS BEING CUT under a Labour Government.

"Mr Osborne made it clear in the future it would be based on need. Every need of every part of the UK must be fairly assessed"

Aye, but some parts of the UK will be more fairly assessed than others.

How can we expect any fairness from a Westminster Government that will have only one or two Scottish MPs.
59

Liz,

Edinburgh 15/05/2009 10:15:00
#60
The Governments borrowing is mostly to cover the banking mess but much this was down to an almost crinimal lack of responsibility and control showed by Mr Brown. The FSA and Vince Cable (amongst others) warned him about the dangers of the increasingly unstable housing market and over borrowing by millions but Brown ignored it - presumably he believed his own 'no more boom and bust' rhetoric.

The amount spent and the relative lack of 'return' on this investment when related to education and the NHS is another issue entirely. There are many who suggest we have not seen an improvement comparable with the extra money spent - so what was the point?!
60

Liz,

Edinburgh 15/05/2009 10:16:05
#63
Well given how badly many Scottish MPs have done recently maybe it will be an improvement.
61

TWC,

exLabour 15/05/2009 10:16:21
Well that's Labour and Tory outfor me. They need to show respect for Holyrood; it's not the £500 million, it's the fact that they are inflicting this from Westminster.

If there is a saving then the Scottish parliament(Labour, Tory, SNP etc)should decide those savings and hand any agreed savings back.
62

Pattester,

Galashiels 15/05/2009 10:17:41
The English would not accept half of the things we have to put up with here in Scotland for example the roads/rail infrastructure and "A" class road up here is a two lane roadway the English side of the border it would be duel carriageway or motorway, the railways or better still what railways we have a main railway line to Edinburgh, Glasgow & Aberdeen and very very little in between, England on the other hand they have railway all over the place to small villages where hardly anyone lives or uses them. Again you just have to look at the television side of things when they are doing any type of competitions/game show or competitors participation involving Scotland Ireland Wales & England they have one place represented in Scotland Ireland & Wales and usually five or six in England and that’s fares I don’t think so. So why the hell do the people of Scotland have to subsidise the English with everything as I said before in my previous blog Electricity (the national grid) Gas (north sea) Oil (north sea) if they want it make them pay for it and treat the Scots, Welsh & Irish with respect and not like something they trod on.
63

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 15/05/2009 10:17:48
"If someone wants to pay the head of a UK quango more than the prime minister of the day gets paid...."

In some cases the head of the Quango is provide more honest and reliable service to the people of the UK than the Prime Minister.
64

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/05/2009 10:24:09
62 I don't know if you've noticed it Liz but we have devolution (most public sector functions are devolved). There is considerable variance North and South of the border in how the public sector functions. That process has been accelerated since the SNP became the Govt. I think if you want a snapshot of Scottish public sector jobs looking at a Scottish paper is a good place to start.

64 and your point is caller ? I am no apologist for Labour - independence can't come quick enough for me. But - I don't accept the faux political orthodoxy being put about by the Tories that this recession is all Labour's fault. It isn't. Both parties are culpable.
65

Corrennie,

15/05/2009 10:32:48
Cue endless Scottish whingeing.
66

Noxious,

Edinburgh 15/05/2009 10:38:31
Typical Hootsman reporting - Scottish budget may be cut under a Tory government. Yes it may, as may everybody else's budget, because they will have to deal with the financial disaster they inherit from New Labour. I can't remember New Labour coming out anywhere to state definitively that the Scottish budget will not be cut in the extremely unlikely event that they win the next election.
67

Noxious,

Edinburgh 15/05/2009 10:45:14
Labour claimed that the speech proved that Scotland's public services would be in trouble if the Tories win the next election.

...mmm, I'm sure I read that they were not going to target front line services, but appear to want to get rid of some of the multitude of quangos that have sprung up under this government. Seems to me the people in trouble will be the unelected and overpaid hangers on and buddies who sit on these quangos. Just wondering, do quango members get to claim expenses? I'd like to see those!
68

hibbyspurs,

15/05/2009 10:48:43
Would people please accept or even understand that when it comes to the Westminster government deciding how much to give each area of the UK the fairest way to do it surely by population?

Therefore if we accept this then if the Scottish Government recieves say £6bn to spend one year it would only seem fair that Greater London should recieve £12bn as there are twice the number of people living there?

It's not just as simple as that and there will always be percieved bias or inequalities one way or another
and you most certainly cant please all of the people all of the time.

I actually think that 2010 can really lead to a new era of British politics. I believe that an independent Scotland is a long way off although not necessrily a "pipe dream", however I think that from what we've seen from the Tories & SNP working together "were possible) in Scotland we could see much the same from the Westminster tories in government working with the SNP in Scotland to generate the best possible deal for Scotland within the Union.

Unlike the current Westminster government who just want to berate & belittle the legally elected administration of Scotland.

I can see a result next year in Scotland were Labour are "taken to pieces" by the SNP and the tories will pick up some of their former seats from Labour as well and could even topple "Darling" in Edinburgh Central (that would make my day).......

This could lead to a unique situation for Scotland where a strong SNP prescence in Westminster and a tory government which is prepared to work with them on issues concerning Scotland will actually be very good for Scotland.

I'm not asking SNP supporters to vote Tory, what I am suggesting is that perhaps Goldie had a point yesterday when she asked Scots to judge them "on the present?".... I dont think theres much wrong with that but we would all need to see how such a tory government would help Scotland over the duration of a parliment.
69

ecosseman,

FACTS NOT PROPAGANDA 15/05/2009 11:03:39

WAKE UP LONDON,WE DO NOT WANT (YOUR?) MONEY.

GIVE SCOTLAND NOTHING AND SCOTLAND WILL GIVE YOU NOTHING IN RETURN.

THAT SOUNDS FAIR,DOES IT NOT.

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!
70

The Strategist,

15/05/2009 11:03:48
#73

There is some merit in what you say but I'm afraid that despite Ms Goldie's pleas to the contrary the Tories have not really changed at all. Witness their support for part privatising Royal Mail.
71

TWC,

exLabour 15/05/2009 11:05:11
73 hibbyspurs,

The best way is for each of us to collect our own taxes and revenues and contribute to the centre. That however means we get control of our own moneys and avoiding that is paramount to union parties and that is the real cause of all the Union problems

72

hibbyspurs,

15/05/2009 11:44:02
#75 - Sadly for Ms Goldie it will be actions that speak louder than words so the tories will hve to earn their votes (as it should be) rather than just mopping up labours collapse in Scotland. Surely thats no bad thing though?

#76 - Defo an idea with merit I agree but it's making it work that will cause the problems and further problems may be caused in such a system if in say Scotland we're paying 23p per £ in income tax and in England their paying only 21p..... A lot of punters may just try and shift their bums into England.

Or even still I work in Scotland for a company whos head office is in England & my tax office is Southampton!!! It's not a simple as it maybe at first looks and would turn into a very complex system I think, however this type ot autonomous system is not without merit as I say, and could eventually be the way forward.

73

Serbo,

15/05/2009 11:56:11
How much has the race relation industries cost the tax payers since the labour party came into power.
Interpreters and translators another big burden on the
tax payers,dont think nationalists or unionists would
miss these financial terrorists,tax eating scum.


74

Geoff,

sa 15/05/2009 12:13:09
This is going to be a real vote winner for the Tories in Scotland.
75

TWC,

exLabour 15/05/2009 12:15:48
77 hibbyspurs,

I paid my taxes in England all y working life and so too do most of my friends. That's why Gers is never accurate.

BTW is it posssible to change where Ipay my taxes?
76

,

15/05/2009 12:19:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
77

Tartan Viking,

15/05/2009 12:23:47
"Scottish budget may be cut under a Tory government" says Osbourne.

Izzatrite?


What a foolish statement to come out with at a time when people are seriously (very seriously actually) considering switching their vote away from LyingBastard party. Are any of these politicians capable of joined-up thinking?
78

European Scot,

15/05/2009 12:38:54
80 Geoff

"This is going to be a real vote winner for the Tories in Scotland."

Afternoon Geoff, how you doing ?
This is either a nice little touch of irony from you, or extreme optimism.
The way this is all playing out, the longer term prospects for the SNP, and Independence are looking even better.
79

The west awake,

Argyll 15/05/2009 12:44:45
Jackie - "It's only when nations don't govern themselves that things get messy, as they are now in the UK."

Although I agree with most of what you say, this wouldn't explain how Scotland was, until recent times, relatively happily part of the UK. Although the SNP has been around for a long time, I am old enought to remember when most people were uninterested in their message.

The question of why Scotland appears to be heading toward Independence is fascinating, but not as simple as you make out.
80

Serbo,

15/05/2009 12:47:02
Hoblar

How much of our taxes being wasted on international aid
to africa and other unfixable problems around the world.


81

Brianwci,

15/05/2009 13:05:48
#7 hoblar: "Don't send our taxes, raised in Scotland to Westminster in the first place."

Got it in one hoblar. Utterly foolhardy to send money one place only to have SOME of it returned....minus a very large HANDLING fee of course.

Better to 'opt in' to pay an agreed fee for defence or whatever other joint service we feel would be beneficial to both Scotland and England.

Apart from anything else, the less money THEY have at their disposal the better. The temptation to 'nest build' is too great.
82

Brianwci,

15/05/2009 13:13:26
As for Cameron and co cutting Scotland's budget.

Of course he WILL. He needs to show England they did the right thing returning the Tories to power and that THEY, the Tories, are capable of putting all of London Labour's mistakes right.

That will cost money Scotland will suffer more than most to provide that money....

.........unless of course we have the sense to vote FOR INDEPENDENCE at the Referendum or indeed at the actual General Election......

...Cameron gets England and Wales, Salmond gets Scotland, Scotland gets rich. Excellent idea!!.
83

bluehead,

edinburgh 15/05/2009 13:19:29
here we go again!when the labour mob are wiped out at the next election the Tories will have a field day chopping Scotland's budget to pieces,and once again it will be the joe mug citizens of Scotland who will be the ones to pay the ultimate price
therefore it is essential to give all the small parties our votes to keep the Tory mob under control,or else they will prove to be worse than labour ,that is,of course, if that is possible
the state politics is in at the moment makes dysenterey
smell like sweet lavender
84

Sumlogic,

No Doubt 15/05/2009 13:33:43
Stark choice for ALL (well aside from bankers and MP’s who have well feathered nests by now) now in almost bankrupt Britain.

Keep Labore and their spending and borrowing and unsustainable posturing, Vote lib Dems (waste of time in with the trouble facing Britain now)....Vote in the Tories who will slash and burn everything they can get their hands on, including the Scottish funding mechanics...Yes that really MEANS increased Council TAX and strikes and service cuts!

You get nothing for nothing and as it stands people need a reality check anyway, free this and that, ‘NO SUCH THING’.

The NHS and the rest of the state monstrosities are financial black holes, it matters not how much money goes in, it gets sucked away as more people simply throw their health away with gay abandon, hoping that the FREE NHS to mop things up for them,

Same with the druggies...don’t like work? Don’t like your current life? Cant face the harsh reality that life can be really hard work sometimes?...answer, turn to drugs and alcohol and let the nanny state take over your life for you...essentially get high and take a free ride!

TIME for change, bring on the Tories, let Scotland finally see how much they’re going to be shafted and let them Vote with their feet towards Independence, one that will have ‘similar hardships’ to what the Tories will level, however one that everyone can at least feel part of and one that has hope finally for a better future!

The UK as we know it is dead, time for a new beginning!
85

Sumlogic,

4 Years 15/05/2009 13:43:59
For Years the Westminster governments have scared the Scots into submission with the threat that with Independence we would have poor services and financial woes...Well the state the UK is in and with the Tories on they’re way into power, with the inevitable CUTS looming, we are going to have all that anyway now.

I'd rather suffer it under my own Scottish Flag than under continued domination by an obviously corrupt Westminster political system!

Time for SNP and proper change!
86

hibbyspurs,

15/05/2009 13:55:13
#88

It's post like yours that really infuriate me at times.

No matter who wins an election or if Scotland became a fully independent state this afternoon our budget for infrastructure, public secotr etc. etc. etc. ... would have to be cut to balance the hideous national debt the whole of the UK is suffering from.

Instead you use this as an argument to deride a party that isnt even the UK government at present and hasnt been so for over a decade.

George Osbourne is to be credited for making a statement he knows no one will like but at least he's not lying straight to your face now is he?

Your assertion is that the Conservative party is effectively racist, in that it is totally anti Scottish.

Do you have any evedience that backs this accusation up of the modern day Conservative party?

Has Cameron said "I hate the jocks me" when I havent been paying attention? Has Goldie said "you'd better watch out cause the English tories are coming to get you when they get in"?

And London Labour's mistakes cost the whole of the UK not just England so the next government tory or otherwise will have to do their level best to put the whole thing right & that will involve working closely with the devolved assembly's/ parliments in Britain. I believe Cameron has already said as much?

Your accusations at the tories favouring England because they have more seats down there is at best political hysteria and at worst verging on racist.
87

hibbyspurs,

15/05/2009 14:03:05
#89, I alluded to just the point you make in an earlier post and agree that if there is a large tory majority from down south it will be good for Scotland for the SNP to have a good voice at Westminster so that they can assure the best deal for Scotland from within the union.

A conservative administration will not want to be seen to be fighting with a belligernt SNP adminstration in Holyrood and it's MP's in Westminster. Far from it, David Cameron and any goverment of his will ideally llok to follow the lead alread set for him by the Scottish Conservative party by working closely with the SNP to ensure that Scotland moves forward and plays it's part in bringing the basket case British economy back from the brink.

I think a great many will be surprised by a Cameron governments attitude towards the SNP & Scotland because whilst their views on the union are complete opposites both realise that by working together were possible Scotland can help to lead Britain pout of this recession.

This has already been shown to great effect by Goldie & Salmond at Holyrood.

I just wish some of the more fanatical SNP supporters could see this at times and actually see the reality of the situation.
88

Rob7,

England 15/05/2009 14:04:27
GREAT! About time Scotland stopped acting like MP's. Brown etc should be 'send homward where they belong'
89

hibbyspurs,

15/05/2009 14:05:16
by the way, before you all jump down my throat... I used the term "belligernet" because a Westminster administration that constantly fights or bickers with Holyrood (like now) will just make the SNP belligerent towards them.

I wasn't saying the Holyrood administration was belligerent int the first place.
90

hibbyspurs,

15/05/2009 14:06:47
#95

Yes Yes.... and it's people like you that make a lot of Scots want independence....

Ohhhhhh and the line your looking for is "Sent them homeward tae think again".....

Tube.
91

Rob7,

England 15/05/2009 14:09:44
Sorry #97

I forgot you cant speak English

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeee
92

go boil ur heid,

15/05/2009 14:17:54
no19 but wasn't it cancer mc connell that brought in the smoking ban, whereas before i could walk the streets with very little smoke inhallation, but now i'm on at least 40 a days.
93

TWC,

exLabour 15/05/2009 14:19:52
98 Rob7,

People like you give Englishmen a bad name around Europe.
But Rob they see it as an English thing... we know it isn't but it shows how some of you bring down the rest.
94

TWC,

exLabour 15/05/2009 14:20:09
100 yeah
95

TWC,

exLabour 15/05/2009 14:20:21
drat
96

Rob7,

England 15/05/2009 14:23:47
#100 cool, but one thig you should know at least I am not Scotish and for that I thank GOD every day
97

frank mcbride,

lusitania 15/05/2009 14:27:21
hibbyspurs.

You are correct, the Tory Party is not racist.

However, the fact remains that, just like NuLabour, it is London-centric and, as such, will predicate its policies on the needs of that region.

The belief that London and the SE can sustain the UK is deeply flawed and breeds resentment not only in Scotland but also in other areas of the UK.

My belief is that for the better weal of the people of Scotland, and as a consequence of it, the people of the other areas of the UK, Independence is the best option as it will radically change the political thinking, and aspirations, of the peoples of the constituent nations.
98

Geoff,

sa 15/05/2009 14:31:02
84 European Scot-Good day to you squire-hope you are well. It was the ironic option ES. One should be honest to voters about one's intentions but this seems to me to be real shooting in foot stuff! I am constantly amazed at how politicians from all sides say things without thinking first. I know it is a little hackneyed, but the phrase"How to tell someone to **** off so that they will thank you and enjoy the trip" comes to mind!

97 hibbyspurs-such ignoramous comment such as that at 95 can be encountered both sides of the border- I am sure many of these are deliberately provocative-Rob7 is probably a ScotNat and vice versa some of the more rabid anti English comments. I focus on what i believe and ignore extreme remarks. I think it was one of the McWhirters who remarked at the time of coming to power of the SNP admin that there would be great opportunities for mischief making to further agendas!

By the way gentlemen, thought you would like to know that the old country is alive and well here-this weekend hosts the Fort Nottingham Highland gathering here in Kwazulu Natal complete with all the usual massed pipe bands,dancing and highland games.
If you are in the neighbourhood...
99

Liz,

Edinburgh 15/05/2009 14:32:08
#104
"as it will radically change the political thinking, and aspirations, of the peoples of the constituent nations."
I agree, if anything Independence would be a boost to the Scottish Tories as they would be freed from the assuption that they are in someway out to get Scotland. Scotland will need to take a big step to the Right if it is to thrive in the world economy. Socialism is not the answer to the question, we requre business to create some real wealth in the economy.
100

hibbyspurs,

15/05/2009 14:32:41
#103 - DOnt worry mate, we thank god your not as well.

101

hibbyspurs,

15/05/2009 14:37:08
#104

I do see the point entirely and the south and souh east is very much the tory "heartlands".

However as I said earlier whilst this may or may not cause bias do you not agree that if an area of the country has a populace of say 5m and another a populace of 10m is it not only right & fair that that area recieves double the amount of money for it's infrastructure etc?

In fact to be fair in most cases a demographic area with twice the people living in it may require more than double as it's infrastructure requirements are much more complex anyway?

I'm not for a second suggesting that people shouldnt shout to get the best deal they can because they mos certainly should, I'm just asking for people to take the chips off their shoulders because one are gets more than another without looking at the reasons why London has more money thrown at it by any westminster government than Scotland.
102

Geoff,

sa 15/05/2009 14:37:53
On the subject of the Tories, the reality is that the Tory Party of 2009 is not only very different from that of Mag Thatch but is ideologically very similar to NuLab. Whether through a cynical desire for power or from a genuine realisation of their mistaken paths past, the Conservatives have moved left and NuLab lurched right and hey-guess what-they are sitting on the same plot! Disillusioned Labour voters need look no further than the formidable Annabel G for their new home!
103

Geoff,

sa 15/05/2009 14:41:03
103 Rob7-You say you are not "Scotish" ??!

You are certainly not Scottish either!
Nor indeed a Scot!
104

hibbyspurs,

15/05/2009 14:43:52
#109

Your not a million miles out there. The hardline right or left politics of the 70's 80's are gone for ever and both the main political parties realise that elections are won and lost in the middle ground.

We all want a free NHS, we all want to know someone will help us if we end up out of work, we all want to pay as little tax as possible, we all just want as nice and comfy a life as possible and as free from the threat of crime, war, depravation as it can be.

Having said all that Labour have gone from Left wing to centre right, whilst the tories have moved from right wing to centre right, I know I'd rather vote for a tory with a blue rosette than a wannabe tory with a red one!!!!! Least I know I aint kidding myself then.
105

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 15/05/2009 15:05:07
hibbyspurs,15/05/2009 14:37:08

"if an area of the country has a populace of say 5m and another a populace of 10m is it not only right & fair that that area recieves double the amount of money for it's infrastructure etc?"

Scotland,
population 5.1 million - 78 772 square kilometres

England
population 51 million - 130,395 square kilometres

Scotland has one tenth of England's population but is nearly two thirds its size.

You are correct

"infrastructure requirements are much more complex"
106

Geoff,

sa 15/05/2009 15:07:17
111 hibbyspurs-I echo the comments of an earlier post-its nice to have some fresh comment on these forums-I hope you will become a regular!. I am a Unionist but hey, some of my best friends here are Scots Nats-have been trying for two years now to convince them of the error of their ways-its an uphill struggle but one can but persevere! :)
107

frank mcbride,

lusitania 15/05/2009 15:17:40
#108, hibbyspurs.

The argument you make verges on the ludicrous.

In your view the larger the population the greater need. This is a self-fulfilling needs assessment and, as such, generates its own particular priorities.

What is does not take into account, however, is that it starves other areas of funding, the further from the fulcrum the less needs are met, because the centre grows and grows and demands more and more of the cake.

The consequence of this is, the further you move from the centre the worse the infrastructure. This lack of infrastructure inhibits economic growth and development which, in turn, leads to a lower standard of living with its resultant social ills of lower wages, smaller manufacturing base and poorer health, to mention a few.

Scotland, and indeed many of the other areas of the UK, suffer because of the London & SE bias. This is why I say that the people of Scotland need Independence; we are ill served by the present arrangement, and no Unionist Party is willing to change it.

As was proclaimed in 1820 (Scottish Weavers' Rebellion): "Scotland free, or a desert".
108

Geoff,

sa 15/05/2009 15:18:29
114 EPH-the point is that racist generalisations about the "English" or "Scottish" make absolutely no sense. There is no monolith of behaviour or indeed anything that aggregates the ENglish or Scottish and about which one can conclude that for example "the English are..."
In the Island of Britain there are 55 million people ALL of whom are different!
109

Geoff,

sa 15/05/2009 15:20:16
115 frank Mcride-a case for decentralisation but not necessarily independence.
110

Geomac 1,

Scotland 15/05/2009 15:35:46
What's all the fuss about? We all know that government spending will have to reduce over the next few years - both in Scotland and in the rest of the UK.
Why is it that rather than facing up to facts, the Scotsman and the contributors to this blog make this into an anti Tory and Scotland vs England issue??
Tax revenues are reducing and public expenditure is running out of control - including in Scotland. So we took advantage of the good time and must play a part in the bad times - we are not immune north of the border!!
111

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

Edin 15/05/2009 15:36:05
The independent Scotland will have to put up with Martin, Brown and Darling, and when the rotund Salamander fails to win an election,Brown and Darling will be ready to take over!
It will be fun. But who pays Martin's expenses in independent Scotand £4000 for taxifare to get family groceries and chauffeur driven stretch limousine fitted with drinks minibar for him to go and watch Celtic home fixtures!?
112

frank mcbride,

lusitania 15/05/2009 15:41:41
#117, geoff.

Decentralisation is being tried and, although achieving some more appropriate governance, it's not working.
113

frank mcbride,

lusitania 15/05/2009 15:44:29
#119, Jack.

Don't worry! We'll nominate them to the House of Lords before we leave. They are, after all, London residents.
114

The Vital Spark,

15/05/2009 15:59:25
"Every need of every part of the UK must be fairly assessed"

Should really read

"Every need of every part of the UK must be fairly assessed by an England imposed Tory Government, an England dominated House of Commons and an England dominated and unelected House of Lords"

Of course perhaps we can rely on the wisdom of Margaret
Thatcher that Scotland will of course despite
all of this be treated fairly.

"we English who are marvellous people are really very generous to Scotland"

It would appear within this Union Scotland is little
more that a charity/needs case which will have
to go to begging to England continually. The Scottish people have got to regain their self-respect and confidence and rule our own nation, this current setup is completely degrading.

115

Geoff,

sa 15/05/2009 16:10:35
118 geomac1-good post and spot on BUT my earlier remarks about McWhirter's prediction and the "not what you say but how you say it" are pertinent here. Osborne gives ammunition to those seeking to break up the Union with his remarks. I would have said it differently or not at all.
116

Geoff,

sa 15/05/2009 16:16:20
100 TWC-well done for the ton by the way but watch out for that "Meths" fellow lurking in the shadows if you have your eye on the double century!!!
117

Geomac 1,

Scotland 15/05/2009 16:16:27
#123 - thanks Geoff. I agree that it's not what you say, it's the way that you say it.
All our ever increasing numbers of politicians (and their associated bureaucracies) need a strong injection of reality as do those who believe that an independent Scotland can afford a public sector costing just less than 50% of so called "GDP".
An independent Scotland would struggle to pay publis sector pension liabilities let alone anything else
118

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 15/05/2009 16:20:17
"SCOTLAND'S funding could be slashed under a future Conservative government"

"Scotland will have to take its share of the pain"

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, along comes another "Dividend of the Union".
119

TWC,

exLabour 15/05/2009 16:24:15
119 Jack and the Bean Stalk
Martin will be out to grass Brown will never come back and Darling is an englishman.
120

Geoff,

sa 15/05/2009 16:25:30
126 Joburg Jock-who do you fancy in the Bulls -Sharks game Jock?
121

Geoff,

sa 15/05/2009 16:26:40
127 TWC-wonder if Gordon brown says "Hello darling!"
122

TWC,

exLabour 15/05/2009 16:29:32
129 Geoff

I say Darling which house are we living in this week?
123

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 15/05/2009 16:29:57
Without, Francois Steyn the Sharks might struggle but I still fancy the Sharks.
124

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 15/05/2009 16:35:05
"SCOTLAND'S funding could be slashed under a future Conservative government"

"Scotland will have to take its share of the pain"

With this type of "Union Dividend" the financial advisors should be sacked and completely new portfolio should be sought - id est - Independence.

125

Geoff,

sa 15/05/2009 16:38:47
131 Jock -agree although your man Steyn is a little eratic. Should be a great game!
126

,

15/05/2009 16:45:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
127

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 15/05/2009 16:45:56
131 Geoff - Steyn is indeed eratic but it is his willingness to try and gain any advantage out of any situation as he sees it for the team. Sometimes he fails but he has won more games for the Sharks than he has lost with his positive attitude.

He is young and his future looks more than promising.
128

Bigwull,

edinburgh 15/05/2009 16:48:44
119 hopefully they will be in a cushy little number in the city of london plotting our downfall. or in a jail cell
129

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 15/05/2009 16:53:01
131 Geoff - I am talking about Steyn, although it sounds like an analogy on the SNP and Scotland.
130

Geoff,

sa 15/05/2009 17:01:37
134 TS1 Traquir-evening Traquir-nice to hear from you to. As I have said before much of what you say is well reasoned and difficult to argue with but my hope is that your aspirations and those of the SNP could be largely realised without destroying the UK.
May be a bridge too far-from either side!
135 Jock-yes he has a great future. Pity the sharks lost the plot since they came back from down under. On paper a brilliant side-pity Stef terreblanche cant play fitba-that missed clearance almost certainly cost us our place in the semis!
Off to dinner-catch u guys later

131

Tris,

15/05/2009 17:18:03
Seems to me if you vote Labour you get cuts and if you vote Tory you'll get cuts.

Best thing is not to vote for either of them then.

Only a moron would vote for less money for your country from the Imperial master, while they continue to waste what they get on Olympics and Crossrail and all these other things that will make London better.

Sickening.

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Jo'Burg Jock,

15/05/2009 17:35:19
Geoff,sa 15/05/2009 17:01:37

Terreblanche is, for me, presently the best full back in the world.

It wasn't his missed kick last week that put the Sharks in their present predicament. It was the results against the Reds and the Cheetahs.

Anyway, Enjoy dinner Geoff.
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15/05/2009 17:37:16
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Brianwci,

15/05/2009 18:04:34
George Osborne said: Scotland will have to take its share of the pain.....

What he didn't say is:....because today London is getting a £16 BILLION addition to its rail network.

Good to see that Scotland's Oil and Gas revenues, (not to mention whisky, tourism etc) are being put to good use.

I'm proud to say that SCOTTISH money helped to build the M25, the Channel Tunnel, high speed rail links to the tunnel and the upgrading of Waterloo AND St Pancras as terminals for the Tunnel trains.

Were I to mention every major London development since Oil we'd be here all day.

There can't be too many people left who want to maintain this system where Scotland gets poorer while London spends our Oil Revenues.

(One THIRD of Scots breadline poor Dec 1st 2008
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7750728.stm)

That's why we must VOTE SNP from here on in.
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Sam.B.O.,

Edinburgh 15/05/2009 18:10:28
From BBC website

Norway's oil wealth will allow the government to implement the country's most expansive national budget in 30 years, it explained.

The country is a major exporter of oil and has used oil revenues to protect itself against the global downturn.

Speaks for itself
136

Brianwci,

15/05/2009 18:10:44
THAT QUOTE IS WORTH PRINTING AGAIN:

One THIRD of Scots breadline poor Dec 1st 2008
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7750728.stm

That's a BBC report.

Oil came on stream 31 years ago and this is what we get.



137

Brianwci,

15/05/2009 18:13:42
#143. excellent post Sam.B.O. if you can provide the url others can use it and of course the url backs up what's being said.
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15/05/2009 18:18:22
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Desmo,

Lumphinnans 15/05/2009 18:19:19
Like others I am heartened by the quality of debate on this thread today.

One question for you, young hibbyspurs.

Re. your post #43

Why is it unreasonable to want Independence ?

Isn`t that state of affairs a bit more prevalent in the world than being the smaller partner of an unequal union ?
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Sam.B.O.,

Edinburgh 15/05/2009 18:20:15
Cheers Brianwci - HERE IT IS PLUS REST OF QUOTE BELOW - NOTE PENSION FUND !!!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8051871.stm


Other European countries have forecast much bigger economic contractions.

"We have acted quickly and strongly," said finance minister Kristin Halvorsen.

Despite the increase in spending, the government still expects to have a surplus of 237bn kroner ($36bn; £24bn) this year.

This money will go into the country's Government Pension Fund, the world's second-largest sovereign wealth fund.
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15/05/2009 18:20:29
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15/05/2009 18:36:44
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Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 15/05/2009 18:37:07
Jackie Priestess,15/05/2009 18:27:39

You beat me to it

jean pull is one of these unfortunate unionists who cannot deal in reality.

He is one of the following:-

a) George Foulkwit

B) A raving loony

c) Both
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15/05/2009 19:01:33
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Alan B,

15/05/2009 19:05:36
#Gene Pool

You seem not to have noticed that it is labour party that is so repugnant.

The snp want the best for scotland. You may agree with their vision or not. You cannot say the same about labour who are all about self interest.

If the tories do make cuts to public spending it will be caused by one reason. Labours irresponsible management of the economy and simply spending far too much in the good economic times landing the uk with unbelievable debt levels.

The tories historically do not tend to cut public spending they tend to increase public spending levels at a lower rate to labour. Even thatcher for all the talk did not cut public spending. (labour are the only party to ever cut nhs spending in real terms).

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Alan B,

15/05/2009 19:10:29
#153 Gene Pool

That makes not sense.

The snp want scotland not to be lumbered by either the tories or labour. the snp want scotland free to choose its own political leaders and parties and not be lumbered by englands choice.

The snp want scotland to have fiscal autonomy so scotland is free to run its own economic policies and decide its own tax and spending levels.

Lets face it the snp view both labour and tories running scotland from westminster as appalling with both having failed scotland badly and both having little interest in improving scotland.
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15/05/2009 19:12:47
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The Vital Spark,

15/05/2009 19:19:04
I notice there is yet another poll with a massive Tory lead and interestingly there is a sub-poll with very strong SNP results. The Tory lead is now 41% with Labour at 22% only 3% ahead of the LibDems.

I wonder if the Scotsman will in the interests of fair
play report on this sub-poll since it is at least
bigger that the 164 sample they used to trumpet
a supposed Labour lead back in January.

http://news.scotsman.com/politics/Labour-overtakes-SNP-in-Westminster.4862590.jp

The latest sub-poll is 174 so 10 more that what
The Scotsman and Labour apparently deem significant.
The results are :

Westminster:
38% SNP
27% Lab
15% Con
14% LD
3% Green

European:
40% SNP
21% Lab
14% LD
13% Con
4% Green
4% UKIP

http://www.northtoleith.com/2009/05/bigger-than-most.html

I await fair and balanced reporting from The Scotsman
including the two full Scottish polls over the last
few weeks that showed massive SNP leads but apparently
were not significant enough for the Scotsman to report
on yet.

23rd April 2009

"SNP surges ahead"

"latest YouGov poll finds the SNP ahead of Labour on voting intentions in the first-past-the-post and regional list categories, and at Westminster."

see- tinyurl.com/dbe7br

3rd May 2009 - TNS Poll Result

"Sunday Herald poll results this weekend (somewhat bizarrely buried at the bottom of page 15) have the SNP ahead of Labour by a stonking 12% in the constituency vote and 10% in the regional vote. A remarkable increase from the party's wafer-thin victory in 2007."

see - tinyurl.com/dxkhcp
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15/05/2009 19:19:22
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15/05/2009 19:21:06
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Desmo,

Lumphinnans 15/05/2009 19:21:28
My sentiments exactly, Jackie.

I just posted my gratitude for a rare, insightful, mature dicussion, then went to have dinner.

I come back to find that, seconds after my comment, normal service has been resumed from the sub-terranean at post#149.

Such a shame.
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15/05/2009 19:23:20
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15/05/2009 19:24:10
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15/05/2009 19:28:06
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15/05/2009 19:29:34
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15/05/2009 19:32:01
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Alan B,

15/05/2009 19:46:24
#Gene Pool

Your argument does not make sense.

"Otherwise, why are you lot always talking down your opposition, instead of talking yourselves up?"

The snp talk up independence and the advantages to scotland of independence. You can agree with that or not.

Labour are the party of negativity. They run silly scare stories about independence which they do not believe themselves. Why have they failed to make any credible argument for the union? Why do they not try?

Partly it is do with labour knowing negative campaigning can work. Partly as it is browns way. That is why mcconnell waas annoyed with brown at the last scottish election.

And largely as labour do not really have a good story to sell to scotland regarding the union.


We will see what the tories do if elected. But you have ignored the point i raised that labour are the only party to ever have cut nhs spending and the other point that the tories did not cut public spending during the rigors of thatcher.

Choosing between the tories and labour at westminster is about choosing between 2 poor options.

The tories are south of england orientated, but are not as clueless as labour. It is abit like choosing between dummer and dummer. Or corrupt and corrupter.

If i were a unionist i would go for the lib dems. With the tories as a poor 2nd choice. Do not like the racist element of that party, there upper class twits, their anti europeaness, and south orientation. But i cannot stand labour as i think there are the worst of the lost by a distance.

The pretent to want to help the vulnerable but it is a lie. They are ok in the short term but alway bankrupt the country as they sell principle out for power.

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Alan B,

15/05/2009 19:54:59
#Gene Pool

I can understand you supporting the union but to support labour a party full of incompetence and corruption seems devoid of any logic.

As for your bnp remarks.

Remember it was labour under brown campaigning under the bnp slogan of the racist - british jobs for british workers.
161

GOODBYE LONDON LABOUR,

Aberdeen 15/05/2009 20:16:34
THE UNION IS DYING.
Goodbye the destroyers of Scotland.
162

FerryPort,

15/05/2009 20:20:27
I had the pleasure to have met Robbie the Pict in a delightful Ullapool harbourside pub.
It was a lovely evening.
163

Tris,

15/05/2009 21:40:33
#19 Charles... you appear to have a very low opinion of youth in Scotland if you think all they care about is drinking and smoking and eating chocolate.

Look around you and see what some young people are doing with their lives.

The smoking ban came from a Labour government in both Scotland and England, and the recommendations for minimum pricing on alcohol came from Chief medical officers in both countries.

But Mr Brown was scared stiff to upset anyone by taking doctors' advice and putting up the price of drink. He seems to care more about popularity than doing the right thing. Fortunately for the health of our alcoholc youth (which is a small but growing and dangerous proportion of them) the SNP cares more about doing the right thing.

God save us from any more of this daft sleazy incompetent bunch of fools that make up the British cabinet (you know, the ones who all seem to have made silly mistakes when adding up their expenses). I honestly wouldn't leave them in charge of the office tea fund for fear they'd either steal it or make a mistake with it.
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15/05/2009 23:24:53
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frank mcbride,

lusitania 15/05/2009 23:46:16
Gene Pool,

I've just received a text from His Lordship Ffoulkes asking me to ask you to refrain from trying to take his title, of "the most insane political commentator in Scotland", from him.

He will, however, he says, recommend you to Gordon as his chief advisor if you so desist.
166

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15/05/2009 23:50:04
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