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MSP calling for probe into schools Scots language bias

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Published Date: 25 March 2008
FOR years, children speaking their Scots dialect have been told off by teachers for not using proper English. In the past, pupils were belted for saying words which they used regularly at home.
Now MSPs are considering research into whether pupils still face discrimination in school for speaking Scots.

SNP backbencher Bill Wilson hopes to persuade the Scottish Parliament's equal opportunities committee to commission a study amid fears of
a "negative attitude" to their native tongue can harm youngster's education.

The SNP election manifesto promised to promote awareness and use of Scots and the Scottish Government plans an audit of existing provision for Scots.

But Mr Wilson believes there is enough evidence of possible discrimination to justify research on the issue. He said Scotland had three native languages – English, Scots and Gaelic – and speakers of all three should have equal rights.

Mr Wilson, a list MSP for the West of Scotland, said he had been belted at school for saying "Aye".

He fears pupils who speak Scots could still suffer from a "generally negative attitude" and teachers "correcting" Scots without recognising it as a separate language.

He said there were benefits to children from learning Scots as well as English: "Research has shown it is much easier for children to learn a third language if they start off with two."

But he said a study at Letham Primary School, Livingston found teachers unconsciously took a negative attitude towards Scots. He said: "They took immediate steps to change things."

Recent figures from the Scottish Government showed 88 languages are spoken by children in Edinburgh schools with Polish the most common after English. But in Midlothian, Scots was listed as the most common after English.

Tory MSP Margaret Mitchell, convener of the equal opportunities committee, said looking at discrimination against Scots-speaking pupils would be considered with other proposals.

She said: "It will be up to the committee to prioritise and see what they want to do."

SOME USEFUL SCOTS SCHOOL PHRASES

Scots - English

Can a gang til the cludgie? – May I go to the toilet?

Bide fir iz – Wait for me

He's taen ma baa – He's taken my ball

A hae ae skelf i ma haun – I've a splinter in my hand

A cannae dae ma sums – I can't do my sums

www.scots-online.org






Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 25 March 2008 12:39 PM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scots language
 
1

unbiased,

In the snow 25/03/2008 12:24:42
....and what about Doric? No mention of that in the article!!!
2

Jaimeson,

25/03/2008 12:32:33
I've never heard anything so daft. I'm an Independence supporter but I think proper English must be used in education.
Next we'll have Aberdonians wanting to be taught in Doric, Glaswegians in Weegie, Londoners in Cockney, Birminghamers in Brum, and so on. There is/was a Scots Language but it is archaic. The form of Scots given as examples in the article is a local dialect not a language.
If folk want to get on in this world then they'd better learn to speak a good and understandable form of English. The rest of the world is.
3

DAVID,

Edinburgh 25/03/2008 13:08:26
Yes, we'll really help kids achieve their full potential and get a good job by encouraging them to speak like neds.

Great idea from an idiot list MSP with too much time on his hands. I think he should be more worried about why young people are too lazy to learn French, German, Arabic, Chinese etc, which would do more for our ecominc growth prospects.

4

Calum Crubag,

25/03/2008 13:22:06
#2 - really? Proper English? I know kids that are educated almost entirely in Gaelic and a result (go and check the science, Chomsky et al and the attainment of Gaelic medium kids), their English is all the better for it. Kids have no problem switching between tongues. The auld 'one language' is enough attitude holds kids back and doesn't make best use of our natural capacities.
5

Calum Crubag,

25/03/2008 13:23:44
#3 - kids too lazy? It's the parents at fault. Expose kids to languages and they pick them up. Again, see previous post re Gaelic medium. Better still, go and visit a Gaelic P1 class and see the kids picking it up.
6

Jaimeson,

25/03/2008 13:41:52
No problems with Gaelic. It is a separate language, albeit a dying one, not a dialect of Anglo Saxon. Some Scots need to rid themselves of this idea that 'proper' English is somehow England's language. While some of them do speak it down there, 'proper' English is the official language of America, Australia, New Zealand, (one of India's for God's sake), and of all educated people everywhere who speak English no matter what local dialect of English or of their own tongue that they speak at home.
7

Jenny MacArthur,

25/03/2008 13:42:32
Aren't we confusing Scots and Gaelic chaps? Gaelic has no tradition in Edinburgh at all so there's no reason to teach it. Anyway, very few people speak the Scots language nowadays. Most Scots speak a mixture of Scots and English to a varying extent. I agree that schools in this part of the world should teach Scots as a language, and also taught correct English as a language (that's useful for example for business or travel, and not just to England) and that the local language variant mixing the two should be normal classroom usage.

But kids who haven't learned to speak properly in any language should be trained to do so, which includes not tolerating incorrect or inappropriate speech in the wrong context.
8

Jingsitsme,

EDINBURGH 25/03/2008 13:47:02
tolerance and a happy medium without going to extremes.

More moaning should be about lack of English and usage by immigrant children. Many have been in UK for a while and can't speak it as their parents will not speak it at home nor allow them to do so either.
9

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 25/03/2008 13:55:43
It's all Greek to me.

Gaelic is a charming dialect and should be promoted to preserve the special and unique character of Scotland.
10

brettgallacher,

edinburgh 25/03/2008 13:58:54
gaelic has no place in edinburgh dont you mean the english banned it so us scots couldnt learn our own langauge i take it your one of these people who now think my daughter should only be taught urdu or mandarin
11

Gaelforce,

Hawaii 25/03/2008 14:07:11
Jaimeson
Proper english in america, pray tell which state, I now live in Hawaii but have lived in several states and never heard "proper english" spoken yet, Chinnese,Japannese,Phillopeno, and Spanish, and by the way a vast majority of people speaking those languages don't have any english, and Americans will tell you they don't speak English English but American English.Just in case you are wondering I am Scots born and bred and I speak English, Gaelic, German and Punjabi
12

Doh,

25/03/2008 14:16:35
Gonnae no wiste onyai mair monies ain tis soobjekt

Tak a lang louk ah tis yon ae blethers

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/scots/index.htm

lang mae yer lum reek
13

Doh,

25/03/2008 14:20:37
Och in wan ither thang

Skelp is weggie, oer ere we gang abbboot saying spale

Aye
14

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

25/03/2008 14:39:09
Eh?...Whit?...
15

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 25/03/2008 15:13:30
Away an bile yer heids !
16

Rob - Honest Toun,

25/03/2008 15:43:55
Maist Scots is bi-lingual an naebody's sayin English shuidnae be learned in the Scottish schuils. A body wad hae tae be gey donnert tae juist be able tae speak the ae language an naethin else.

Scots is recognised as a language bi the EU, British Government an the Scottish Government an for thaim that disnae ken, Doric is juist anither name for Scots in the nor-east o the country.

There mony kinds o English. Scottish Standard English is the kind learned in Scottish schuils an it hings on tae a lot o the Scots vowel soonds, Scots gremmar,Scots idiom an sentence structure. It's juist as different frae English English as American English is. The English words 'tide' an tied' hae twa different pronunciations in SSE but are baith pronounced the same in SE.

www.scots-tung.com
17

Zugspitze,

25/03/2008 16:20:51
Number 7,

The second line of your comment is preposterous. There are MANY languages taught in Edinburgh and the majority have NO link to Scotland at all. Gaelic is a traditional and interesting language and having it taught here is a a wonderful thing appreciated by a great many people in this city. By the way, it is also a CHOICE, not compulsory so I can't imagine why you would begrudge it.

As another person above mentioned, if you had the opportunity to view gaelic medioum classes you would see some of the most artistic, self-assured and capable children performing well beyond many of their counterparts in traditional english classes.
18

ElmoGal,

25/03/2008 16:26:53
EH???? Scots - English

Can a gang til the cludgie? – May I go to the toilet?
Bide fir iz – Wait for me
He's taen ma baa – He's taken my ball
A hae ae skelf i ma haun – I've a splinter in my hand
A cannae dae ma sums – I can't do my sums

Does anyone still use these phrases anywhere?? i have lived in edinburgh all my life - borne and bread - and i never used them but then agen i wasnt "corrected" for sayin Aye in skl either........
19

tomias,

Edinburgh 25/03/2008 17:03:41
Chomsky ? Great am pleased that name appeared- how about Ivor Cutler,another genius!!!
20

subrosa,

25/03/2008 17:18:14
This gets churned out a few times a year. I'll wait until I hear of Westminster telling the Geordies or the Cornish they must speak English at all times. Then perhaps I'll take it seriously.

A wee story. I had to move south when a teenager owing to my father's work. I just loved how his secretary spoke and found out she'd had elocution lessons when young. So, off I set clutching my 12/6 fee, to see this woman who was going to help me be 'posh'. A hour later I left her house, still clutching my 12/6 and feeling miserable. Her advice to me had been 'just slow down but don't lose your accent because it is one of the most valuable things to own and you'll always stand out in a crowd'. At that age I didn't want to stand out in a crowd.

But her advice has been oh so right. I've travelled with my work all over Europe, been called Dutch in Germany, been called Swiss in France, been called Spain in Italy but once everyone was told I was Scottish they never forgot it!

Teachers should teach children never to be embarrassed about their accent or speaking Scots with others who understand it. Language is about other people understanding what you say and it's dialects and accents which make it personal. I seldom understand what the Tyroleans say in German but we get there most of the time.
21

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 25/03/2008 17:26:26
If Horrible Cankers at #14 cannot understand some of the postings here and another poster who has lived in Edinburgh all his life - #18 - has neither heard nor used the Gaelic phrases cited in the article, then how are we mortals who speak and read English to understand.

#12 and #13 Doh

Translation please! YOu probably said something profound and insightful yet we aren't all graced with your Gaelic fluency so please suspend the suspence and tell us what the h*ll it is you have posted.
22

Hermitage,

Edinburgh 25/03/2008 18:36:22
Brought up in Morningside and educated at an independent school, I was taught 50 years ago that 'Scots' was a guttersnipe version of English.

I have since had no reason to change my mind.
23

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

25/03/2008 21:03:58
22...Timmy Chaz..'harumph'...clears throat..

12.. 'Please do not waste any more money on this subject,

Take a long look at this lot of speakers

Long may your chimney smoke (good health to you)'

and

13

'Oh yes and one other thing'

'Skelp is Weggie ('Slap' is Glaswegian)over here we go about saying 'Spale' (?)

Voila.
24

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 25/03/2008 21:47:34
re #3 : "Yes, we'll really help kids achieve their full potential and get a good job by encouraging them to speak like neds."

That is a disgraceful, offensive comment.

I'm getting married in June, and my fianceé and I have arranged with the Registrar to have the entire ceremony conducted in Scots, or the Doric as we call it in this area. She and I speak and write Scots to each other routinely, and we had a meeting (in Scots) with the Registrar yesterday to sort out some details of the script for the wedding.

Is all this just "speaking like neds"?

As far as good jobs are concerned, both of us are graduate professionals. I'm a software developer and my fianceé is an HR officer.

As far as "full potential" is concerned, as well as Scots and English, I can converse in French and Finnish and am working on Spanish and Russian, for all of which Scots is a great help in pronouncing properly.

Bigots such as "DAVID" should accept that this country has turned a corner, with no turning back.
25

Wee Jimmie,

Lothian 25/03/2008 22:58:21
Scots is not Doric never was never will be make up your mind, is it Scots or Doric.

Maybe you could put some of the lines on here so we can see what you are talking about
26

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 25/03/2008 23:23:17
Re #27 : the term "Doric" came into use (in the 18th century, I believe, when Edinburgh was "the Athens of the North") to mean Scots, from any region of the country.

Anyway, this will be my vow to my future wife:

"Nou, A’ll caw on this fowk here aboot us
Tae gie witness
That I, Lindsay Colin Wilson,
Tak you, Fiona-James Henderson,
For ma lawful wife,
Tae hae an tae haud,
Fae this day on."

and when I offer her the wedding ring, I'm going to say:

"For a seal tae ma vow A’ll gie ye this ring.
Lat it be a sign o wir mairrage.
Aw that A am, A’ll gie tae you;
An aw that A hae, A’ll share wi ye."

Are we satisfied now?
27

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 25/03/2008 23:50:35
Mr Wilson is correct. Teachers should be aware of the Scots language and should encourage natural verbal and written expression in Scots where appropriate.

If they are going to ask kids to speak in a certain manner for a certain task they should nonetheless be wary of stigmatising any Scots words as "bad English" or even worse punishing their use.

Scots is a distinct lanuage from English and its use should be actively encouraged in Scottish schools. It is a part of our common culture and should be shown some respect.
28

donald,

glasgow 26/03/2008 09:22:49
Britspeak should be banned in Scotland
29

Calum Crubag,

26/03/2008 12:51:39
#7 - Jenny MacArthur. You need to learn Edinburgh's history. You even have a Gaelic name. Take a look at many of Edinburgh's placenames which are Gaelic. Some of the traditions such as Beltane (a Gaelic word) on Calton (Gaelic: Calltainn) are from our Gaelic past. The Gaelic speaking King Malcome Ceannmor had his court in Edinburgh. Gaels have moved to Edinburgh for centuries and had their own churches. There's an old site on Johnstone Terrace. Donnchadh Ban is buried in Greyfriars. Gaelic insciptions are to be found on many war memorials. Etc, etc...

Why do people enjoy exhibiting their ignorance?
30

Calum Crubag,

26/03/2008 15:25:14
http://www.cli.org.uk/

 

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