Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Salmond wants Westminster to 'dance to a Scottish jig' as he targets 20 seats

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 21 April 2008
ALEX Salmond yesterday set the SNP the ambitious target of winning more than a third of Scotland's seats at the next general election, saying he wanted to make Westminster to "dance to a Scottish jig".
The First Minister believes the SNP could hold the balance of power at Westminster after the next election and he told his party to aim high and take 20 seats from both Labour and the Liberal Democrats.

Mr Salmond used a rousing speech to the SNP's spring conference in Edinburgh to stress his belief that the SNP could wield real influence in Westminster for the first time since 1979.

He said: "We are moving into a period where the balances of power can be fundamentally changed. Last year I charged the party to win 20 new seats in the new Scottish Parliament. Some said it couldn't be done. You did it; we are the government."

And he added: "Now I am charging the party to build a Scottish block of at least 20 MPs in the Westminster parliament, people ready, willing and able to defend our parliament and our people. If we can achieve that, then all the Westminster 'Noes' will suddenly becomes 'Yeses'. We can make Westminster dance to a Scottish jig."

Mr Salmond believes that there is likely to be a hung parliament following the next general election, with no party able to form an outright majority government.

In that scenario, an SNP block of 20 MPs – maybe even working with Plaid Cymru and possibly the Ulster Unionists to take the total to 30 or more – would have influence and would be able to extract policy commitments in return for keeping one of the bigger parties in power.

A spokesman for the First Minister stressed afterwards that the SNP was not looking for formal coalitions, but would be willing to trade support for policy commitments on an "issue by issue basis". The SNP has just six MPs at Westminster at the moment. It would need a swing of at least 14 or 15 per cent to take another 14 seats in 2010, which is when experts expect the next election to be called.

Angus Robertson, the SNP's chief election strategist, refused to name his target seats yesterday, but it is understood that Dundee West, Ochil and South Perthshire, Stirling, Argyll and Bute, and Edinburgh East are high on the SNP's most-wanted list.

But elections expert Professor John Curtice warned that Mr Salmond's 20-seat goal would be very hard to achieve.

He said: "The most recent poll which gave the SNP its best Westminster figures, by Market Research UK, put the SNP and Labour on even-stevens.

"But to get 20 seats, the SNP would need to be ahead, and Labour and the Liberal Democrats would need to be plummeting at the same time. It's a tall order."

Mr Salmond was cheered repeatedly by delegates in the small but packed hall at Heriot Watt University yesterday for his annual spring conference speech.

He stressed the achievements he said the SNP had delivered in its first year of government, from cutting the cost of prescriptions to abolishing tolls on the Forth and Tay bridges.

The First Minister defended his party's controversial local income tax plans, claiming it would be much fairer for more low-income Scots than the combination of the council tax and the Treasury's decision to cut the 10p tax rate.

He also answered Gordon Brown's argument that it was wrong to push for independence in an increasingly interdependent world.

Mr Salmond said: "The reality of the 21st century is that the processes of independence and interdependence are one and the same.

"As our world becomes ever more interconnected in terms of trade, international relations, the environment and security, the case for nations having a voice at global level becomes ever more compelling.

"It is by becoming independent that nations can maximise their influence in our interdependent world."

It was a bullish performance by a First Minister buoyed up by a year in government and ready to continue pounding opponents who have had trouble challenging the SNP in any meaningful way over the past 12 months.

It was a speech designed for the party activists, and the several hundred who came to Edinburgh clearly enjoyed it, giving Mr Salmond a tumultuous and sustained standing ovation after his 40-minute address.

Mr Salmond ended by warning the UK government not to bully the Scottish Government.

"The more that Westminster tries to lay down the law north of the Border in clearly devolved areas, to bully the Scottish Parliament, the greater the support there will be for independence and equality for Scotland," he said, to enthusiastic applause.

The SNP will seek to build on Mr Salmond's rhetoric by launching a major campaign offensive next month, even though there is not scheduled to be an election of any sort in Scotland before the 2009 European elections.

The Nationalists will send out nearly one million leaflets promoting the work of the Scottish Government and asking for feedback.

The aim is to build up the party's database ahead of the 2010 general election, allowing party strategists to target voters with as much precision and as much success as they did in the 2007 Scottish elections.

Pressure grows for commission to look at independence

WENDY Alexander is facing increasingly strident demands from inside the Labour movement for independence to be considered by the flagship commission that is reviewing the devolution settlement.

The Scottish Labour leader has championed the Scottish Constitutional Commission, and has been adamant it will not consider the possible merits of independence.

But now Steven Purcell, the Labour leader of Glasgow City Council, has admitted that his council will table submissions to both the commission and the rival "national conversation" on independence, set up by the Scottish Government.

It also emerged yesterday that the Public and Commercial Services Union will call this week at the Scottish Trades Union Congress in Inverness for the commission's remit to be widened to include independence.

The union's motion is particularly embarrassing for Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, who will address the conference later today and who has given his backing to the commission but is firmly opposed to it discussing independence.

Mr Purcell, who was on Ms Alexander's leadership campaign team, said it was "legitimate" to consider independence as part of a review of devolution. "Post-devolution Scotland will always have a debate about the parliament, about the future and, yes, it may possibly include independence," he said.

A Scottish Labour spokeswoman said: "The vast majority of Scots have constantly rejected independence, therefore the commission will focus on reviewing the settlement within a UK framework."


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 20 April 2008 9:08 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish independence
 
1

,

21/04/2008 00:02:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

,

21/04/2008 00:04:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
3

,

21/04/2008 00:08:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

,

21/04/2008 00:16:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

walter,

21/04/2008 00:35:29
It is a lot to ask, 14 the 20 Holyrood seats came from the Greens 5, Solidarity 6 and independents 3.
Only 6 seats came the others Labour 4 Lib/Dems 1 and Tories 1.
You never know but I don't think they will manage 14 seats from the Lib/Dems and Labour at Westminster.
6

Benedict Arnold,

Paris 21/04/2008 00:59:43
In the present fluid state of Scottish politics, the target of 20 Westminster seats set by Alex Salmond in his conference speech could conceivably turn out to be on the low side by the time of the next UK general election. He will no doubt have chosen that figure because that is his judgment of the matter.

At any rate, the language he has elected to use in connection with this target will cause no ripples in England. It will cause waves. The very idea of Scotland dictating to England as opposed to the usual arrangement should be enough to induce more English questioning of the present constitutional arrangements as well as a fair amount of apoplexy in the Home Counties. This would seem to be a desirable outcome in itself.

What has Scotland done to deserve such a first-rate leader?
7

,

21/04/2008 01:10:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
8

Senga Jean,

Scotland 21/04/2008 01:11:48
Well done cutty sark. Well done Alex Salmond. Scotland is getting better and better every day in every way.
9

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 21/04/2008 01:20:44
Don't ya just love snaphead poli sci perfessers like Curtice. We have them on our side too. 90% of the time they're dead wrong.
20 new seats sounds like a modest target. Go Alex go!!
10

,

21/04/2008 01:28:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
11

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

The Republic of Scotland 21/04/2008 03:16:02
The Union is over in all but name. Come the next election the Labour party will exisit in name only in Scotland. Under the leadership of Gordon Brown the party is disintegrating before our eyes.
I predict that the SNP will return over 40 MP's to Westminister, thus sealing the mandate for independance.
Oh what joy to be a scot in scotland.
12

Canada,

southampton 21/04/2008 04:13:40
The Pope adresses 200 nations at the UN. Every nation, third world country, banana republic is there, but Scotland is represented by a neighbour, not fit to sit with the big boys. Come on scotland, where's your pride?
13

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta; . CA.....a place in the Sun 21/04/2008 04:23:51
1
Angus Ogg,
2
---------------------------------------------
Dude .

Have u calmed down yet. Stress will do u in dude.

A Scottish Labour spokeswoman said: "The vast majority of Scots have constantly rejected independence, therefore the commission will focus on reviewing the settlement within a UK framework."

--------------------------------------------

If the above statement is true, and in the last election the majority of Scots voters DID NOT vote for SNP.

Then why all this rabble rousing "make Westminster dance to a Scottish jig". Sounds very premature like its make belief and may never happen.

As for the North Sea oil . The British Government will never let it go, and Scotland can do nothing about it whatever the outcome of independence or retaining the status quo.

Dudes get real , absolute independence for Scotland is wishful thinking. A dead duck, but a form of pseudo independence could work for the Scots under the rules of the EU .

All U are doing is trading Ur neighbor Westminster for the foreigner Brussels.

And Brussels is a giant bureaucracy where U tow the line or else.
Either the French or the Germans the two power brokers in the EU will dictate the YES and NO, to Ur requests, as a member.

I doubt if the Scots voters will buy into that dudes.

Happy Haggis Day

GC


14

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 21/04/2008 04:39:37
The target of 20 seats seems rather unambitious given the current running through Scottish politics.

The deafening silence of all three Unionist parties as the Treasury tries to short change Scotland has hurt them immeasurably.

They are all between a rock and a hard place. Any attempt to try an subvert SNP initiatives by Westminster will be viewed as an attack on Scotland. If they support SNP initiatives that bring in better programs than they have in England it will build more English resentment and cost that party English seats in the next election.

I think it maybe becoming increasingly aware for them that they are in a fight they can't win.

You can see it in the posts by Unionist supporters on this site, they don't even try to discuss issues anymore. They are on their last legs and they know it, all you get from them know is insults and sleen venting invective.

Union coming through, dead man walking.
15

Graeme,

Guangzhou 21/04/2008 05:02:23
# 20. I refer to your penultimate paragraph.

That’s because you windbags are in the minority and will remain there. The Scottish British majority has all but given up on your rants. You dreamers are blind so what’s the point in flogging a dead horse over and over again?


16

David MacVicar,

web 21/04/2008 05:31:14
a proud doonhamer

There is no basis that voters will vote in a GE in the same way as a Scottish election whereas there is evidence that voters vote differently and more towards the UK, London registered parties.

So its not a tall order to expect a 3% increase from the Scottish GE pattern of voting but it is a tall order to expect UK GE voting patterns that mirror the Scottish election. I don't think we should get ahead of ourselves here.

A number of factors need to be in play for the SNP to get such an outcome:
Labour in continued freefall - likely
Lib Dems in continued freefall - less likely
Tories looking certain to win - Likely but how will previous Labour voters react? They could be persuaded to prop up Labour as much as voting anything else.
Turnout: If Labour are doing very bad then turnout could be low - helping the SNP
Related stuff - low Labour finances - higher than average SNP funds. Motivated and numerous SNP canvassers compared to unmotivated and less numerous Labour ones.

2 very important areas imo will be:
How well the SNP are still doing in the SP.
New coverage - SNP news coverage in Scotland is likely to be far higher than before.

Even with all that, 20 seats is a difficult target.
My guess, somewhere in the middle between 12 and 20, so around 16.
17

Alan Reid,

NZ 21/04/2008 06:11:37
19 GalacticCannibal, What about East Timor? Did'nt Indonesia say that they would never give that up?
18

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 21/04/2008 06:26:02
20 seats? With Labour a complete shambles, this shows a real lack of ambition.
19

McX,

21/04/2008 06:42:19
A forty minute speech in Edinburgh and the Hootsman buys a photograph from PA, don't you employ photographers anymore, wasn't there a more unflattering one available? Jings the FM looks like a man impersonating a bumble bee about to take off.

"For the first time in our history we have not just a noble cause but a practical application – a record in government. Our positive and forward looking agenda for Scotland is about the people being in charge of their destiny, with the right to choose the nation's future. The SNP's referendum policy reflects and promotes the new politics. It is a progressive vision for a modern Scotland – a nation which governs itself wisely and fairly, and is also a good citizen of the world."
20

Mikey,

21/04/2008 07:00:08
I find it strange that supposed Scots are now complaining of a Scots party holding the balance of power in London. What the matter onanists, don't like democracy? Or do you only like it when an English party holds the BoP?

Like naughty children, the unionist onanists just don't know what they want!
21

Black & White Triumph,

greenhill road....soon 21/04/2008 07:01:30
#26 Excellent, mind if I borrow most of it, you did well in your exams by the erudition in your prose.

Scotland deserves independence as we can do it
22

McX,

21/04/2008 07:10:55
#28 B&W triumph...

It's the closing paragraph from Salmond's speech yesterday. Borrow away, buddie.
23

it has always been allan,

21/04/2008 07:38:44
I really wanted to know about John Prescott's bulima. must be a "good day to bury bad news"

Oops am I on the wrong page
24

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/04/2008 07:44:16
#22 "Labour in continued freefall - likely
Lib Dems in continued freefall - less likely"

You think? Both north and south of the border, the Lib Dems are currently polling at HALF of what they were a year ago. If anything, and if such a thing is even believable, they're in even MORE of a shambles than the Red Tories, and they don't have the cushion of a huge block of thick Rangers supporters ingrained for decades into voting the way of their faithers and their faither's faithers. If Labour are sliding down a slippery slope, the Lib Dems are falling off a cliff.
25

Iain fae Elgin,

21/04/2008 07:44:50
Independant Scotland.

Bankrupt within 20 years.



Sad but very possible.

(very personal opinion backed up by no figures, so don't go throwing anything at your monitors...)
26

SeriouslyAmused,

Ayr 21/04/2008 07:57:07
GalacticCannibal,Murrieta; . CA.....

Your argument is fallacious. You posit that the EU is an alternative to Westminster. Nonsense. We already ARE in the EU and it's Westminster that put us there in the first place. We would be removing an increasingly irrelevant tier of Government, ie the UK and replacing it with a Government closer to home and with powers to do what is necessary for this northern country of Britain rather than what is demanded by the more populated southern part of England.

Now, screw yer nut on, drop the dope and think for yourself man, not your usual: regurgitating nonsense you think is received wisdom.
27

conservative,

21/04/2008 07:58:09
es, roll on the next election when maybe we'll be rid of this wee nyaff and his destructive ideas. He's a great politician but a fool.
28

Richardinho,

21/04/2008 07:58:32
#33,34 Rather ignorant and pathetic remarks.
29

David MacVicar,

web 21/04/2008 07:59:44
Rev. S. Campbell

On reflection I think you are right. I was thinking about
Libdems compared to how they did in the SP election not how they did in the last GE.
I think they wont fall much further than their SP performance but I agree they have lost a lot of support since the GE and I dont see that recovering so I guess the LD have a lot to lose.
30

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News 21/04/2008 08:03:24
Most of Fife are rather hoping that the SNP take the Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath seat - certainly I'll be happy, and so will most of Westminster according to the latest news.

The longer that Gordon Brown is allowed to increase the UK payment deficit by his convoluted and ill thought-out squanderings, the longer it will take Scotland to claw back the payments currently being witheld.

It is time that Gordon Brown stopped playing the great world benefactor, and focused on matters closer to home.
31

,

21/04/2008 08:04:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
32

Richardinho,

21/04/2008 08:04:58
Salmond's strategy is a good one. Indeed even unionists should consider voting for the SNP as a Scottish block at Westminster could deliver serious concessions for Scotland.
33

Grahamski,

Falkirk 21/04/2008 08:12:37
Congratulations Mr Salmond, you have managed to encapsulate the wheedling and downright nasty side of nationalism in little more than a sentence. Make a democratically elected parliament dance to a minority party's view? An interesting and revealing insight into the cynical and opportunistic mindset of Mr Salmond, a man so far down the road to demagoguery I'm sure he's had his first fitting for a uniform.
The one upside is that the more confident the SNP become the more we will see their true colours. We will see the essentially nagative and bitter nature of their outlook, and their need to do our country down for their own political advantage.
34

jdships,

21/04/2008 08:13:20
The big problem if/when we get independance will be A S's ego.
Can he control it
Jury's out at presenet !
35

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 08:13:28
"..to defend our parliament and our people.."

Does He REALLY think we are under attack or is this just to rouse the gullible?
36

John S,

21/04/2008 08:14:53
#34 - There are a dozen small independent nations in trouble,from Iceland to Zimbabawe. (Note they are not members of the EU and have no oil ?)
That isn't bad because out of 195 countries who are members of the UN we have 81 who have a population less than 5.5 million.
In the EU - 11 of the 27 member countries have population of less than 5.5 million and in Europe 22 countries have a population of less than 5.5 million out of 47 countries.
Out of the 48 countries who have gained independence from Great Britain since WW2 none have asked to rejoin.
37

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 21/04/2008 08:15:55
#21

Thanks Graeme for making my point for me.
38

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 08:19:07
37. Really?

Where are the SNP's version of GERS? They should have been published months ago, why are the SG's accounts, OUR accounts, being hidden away?

Where is the evidence to back up Salmond's claims that Scotland will be one of the richest countries in the world if we were independent?

Where are the oil income figures that Salmond so heavily relies upon when he tells us we will all be rich if we became independent?

All we get from Salmond is rhetoric of how the 'big bad UK' is ripping us off....yet we see no evidence whatsoever to back it up.

It's just nationalism all over, isn't it. Wild claims with no evidence ever given!
39

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 21/04/2008 08:26:38
The union(small u) is a busted flush - finito.

As for comparing Scotland to ZIMBABWE...!!!
40

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 21/04/2008 08:28:25
#33,34,40

Thanks also for making my point at #20
41

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 08:29:37
47. Iceland's inflation is 10% and rising. It's interest rates are 13% and rising....Netherlands' tax take is 42% and climbing, inflation is rising fast but the government cannot control it with monetary measures as they are in the Euro....Belgium's debt is 160% of GDP....

(Out of those 48, how many have stronger economies than the UK?)
42

brownlie,

21/04/2008 08:29:50
42 Graham


Tremendous post.
"Making a democratically elected parliament dance to a minority party's view" - it is to be hoped that no-one from the nasty side point out that this is precisely what the Scottish Labour party (a minority party) is trying to do to the Scottish government (democratically elected) with a little help from their traditional allies the Tories and the Lib Dems. The name of the dance would appear to be a Commission/Review which neglects the democratically elected government's view. The rules that apply to the SNP obviously do not apply to us unionists.
43

Toast,

21/04/2008 08:33:58
I would have thought 30 seats was a much more realistic target,labour face a wipeout in Scotland,Brown is apparently getting a safe seat in England as his present one is anything but safe now.
44

brownlie,

21/04/2008 08:34:11
44 Highland

Good morning - your usual erudite post. I suppose Salmond might be thinking that the poorest in the land are under attack. Surely he must be aware that us unionists are the only ones the people of Scotland trust and look to for help when a budget targets the poor to benefit the rich.
45

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 21/04/2008 08:34:51
Re #48 : as I remember, the depoliticised version of GERS was promised for July this year.
46

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 08:38:22
55. "depoliticised version of GERS"?

Is that what they are calling it?

No spin there then.
47

Angoos,

Baku, Azerbaijan 21/04/2008 08:40:05
A Scottish Labour spokeswoman said: "The vast majority of Scots have constantly rejected independence, therefore the commission will focus on reviewing the settlement within a UK framework."

Have I missed some referendums whilst working overseas ?
48

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 08:47:36
58. Constant claims from the nats that 'small is beautiful' when there are many, many examples of small economies being vulnerable to world events.

Read 48 and provide answers.

(I only use one username, how many do you use again?)
49

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 21/04/2008 08:51:44
Re #56 : I don't know who "they" refers to, but the use of the word "depoliticised" was mine.
50

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 08:52:41
51

You really are a tool. You keep telling us how well the UK is doing globally and completely ignore reality.

2 trillion of personal debt.
First time buyers unable to get onto the housing ladder.
housing more expensive than anywhere in the world. More taxation than anywhere else in the world. Embroyeled in an International war on terrorism.
In fact when where we not embroyeled in a war somewhere??
Cars the most expensive in Europe if not the world.
Fuel costs most expensive in the world.
Even watching TV is more expensive in the UK than anywhere else.
Books more expensive in the UK than anywhere else in the world.
Utility bills more expensive in the UK than anywhere else in the world.

It isnt called rip off Britain for nothing.
51

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 21/04/2008 08:54:50
#51

"Out of those 48, how many have stronger economies than the UK?"

If you want to use current account deficit/surplus then Austria, Belguim, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Czech Republic, Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Ireland are all better off.

If you want to use Budget Deficit as percentage on GDP then everybody in the EU except Hungary is doing better.
52

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/04/2008 08:59:32
#42 "a democratically elected parliament"

That's dumb even by your standards. The Westminster parliament is currently under 100% Labour control, with an absolute majority, despite the fact that a two-thirds majority of voters voted AGAINST them at the last UK election. "Democratic" my balls.

As the SNP have so ably demonstrated, government from a minority vote in a REAL democracy - not the anachronicstic sham in Westminster - depends on, and takes account of the wishes of, minority parties. So securing a block of MPs and using it to achieve your aims is the very heart and soul of democracy.

After all, Scottish MPs could never achieve a majority in the House Of Commons, so by your logic the needs and wants of Scotland could never and should never be addressed by Westminster. That you, a Scot, should be advocating such a position shows just what a cowardly embarrassment to our nation you are.
53

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/04/2008 09:02:35
#61 Don't forget the shoddiest and most expensive public transport in the world...
54

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/04/2008 09:08:27
#59 ALL economies are vulnerable to world events, you witless buffoon. Or hadn't you noticed the collapse of Bear Sterns and Northern Rock, two huge banks in those noticeably large and powerful countries the USA and UK? Size is absolutely no protection against the parasitic greed of international finance.
55

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 09:11:20
64

Oh I am sure the list could easily be added to.
56

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 09:16:36
If the SNP cant do it this time with everything that is going wrong with Labour then they never will.
57

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 09:20:00
65

But none of them have our assets do they??
And you cant compare an Independent Scotland with Iceland you can compare the Orkneys or the Shetlands with Iceland. You compare Norway Sweden Finland and Demmark with Scotland.
Now try again but this time keep it realistic.
58

subrosa,

21/04/2008 09:20:53
# 65

I agree independence is no guarantee of success. Is the status quo successful? In what way does it benefit Scotland?

I expect you will give the usual unionist answers but to be a nation who is 'tied' to a union which treats this said nation as inferior is bad. Nations need to look after their own affairs and not be tied to the political needs of their greater parts.
59

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 09:21:45
65

Begging bowl?? are we back to the p*sh of being unable to stand on our own feet again?? I thought even the Tories admitted that was a load of sh*te??
60

John S,

21/04/2008 09:23:20
#65 - But they do not have - Scotland’s Energy Reserves:-
Oil: 62.4% of the EU’s proven reserves
Gas: 12.5% of the EU’s proven reserves
Coal: 69% of UK reserves and 8.3% of EU
Wind: 25% of EU’s potential (36GW)
Wave: 10% of EU’s potential (14GW)
Tidal: 25% of EU’s potential (7.5GW)

61

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 09:24:44
#20 KH

#21 proves your point!
62

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 09:27:26
#25 I think he said "at least" 20 seats, which of course is something completely different.
63

Media1,sa,

21/04/2008 09:27:32
Well done to the SNP and Alex Salmond on a totally brilliant first year.
64

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 09:29:33
#27 Mikey

A very good point.
65

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 09:31:53
Salmond: "As our world becomes ever more interconnected in terms of trade, international relations, the environment and security - the case for nations having a voice at a global level becomes ever more compelling."

Which is why the SNP proposes we withdraw from our place on the UN Security Council, on G8, in the 'Big Four' of the EU, from the management of the IMF and the World Bank....and become a small voice among the massed ranks of the world's small countries.

Genius.
66

brownlie,

21/04/2008 09:32:14
74 John

That may well be true but we unionists will be unrelenting in our attempts to thwart the nats from using these energy resources for the benefit of Scotland.
67

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 09:36:34
74. "Wind: 25% of EU’s potential (36GW)
Wave: 10% of EU’s potential (14GW)
Tidal: 25% of EU’s potential (7.5GW)"

Where is this written? How can Scotland have 25% of the entire European Union's wind potential? Are we the only country that has wind?
68

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 09:36:35
79

Scotland doesnt have a place in the G8 nor the EU nor the IMF nor the world bank in fact we dont have a place anywhere not even in the UK. We are an ethnic minority at the service of another much larger nation.
69

Alan B,

21/04/2008 09:38:42
Highland Mighty

"Netherlands' tax take is 42% and climbing, inflation is rising fast but the government cannot control it with monetary measures as they are in the Euro"

Taking ur statement to its logical conclusion. U are stating that scotland should have its own currency so that interest rates can be set at a level appropriate to the scottish economy.

Over the last 30yrs we have seen interest rates set for the uk at levels damaging to the scottish economy. In fact is was one of the senior guys in the bank of england that said that unemployment in scotland was a price worth paying to control inflation in the south. The inappropriate monetary policy is one of the reasons for scotland poor level of economic growth.

If you actually analysis the interest rate levels best suited for the scottish economy u would see that the euro rates are much closer to our needs that those set for sterling.

As for the remark about tax take rising in the Netherlands have u been asleep during Browns time as chancellor.
70

Angus Ogg,

21/04/2008 09:39:07
#1 The Fake Angus Ogg,

How did you fake that?

Your ID theft is very good. The ID you have posted under is EXACTLY the same as my ID. I always thought you fakers had to have a slightly different spelling to copy someone elses ID?

You are a very bad boy.
71

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 09:43:13
84

Not if they work for the Scotsman.
72

Angus Ogg,

21/04/2008 09:43:22
#19 Ganaptic Cammembert,

Canaptic Dude, #1 post is a fake ID. Very good fake though.

Sorry Dude, but you have your Independence. Well your country does. Sounds like you need your Independence too, a grown man still sponging off his Mum's money and won't get a job.

Is it the Bates Motel that your Mum owns ?

Happy Hitchcock Day Dude.
73

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 09:43:27
The EU consumes 3,000,000GW of electricity a year, why are the nats touting the POTENTIAL of producing 57.5GW (a tiny 0.001%!) as anything relevant?

"Follow the SNP and we might possibly produce 0.001% of the EU's electricity needs and potentially perhaps be rich! Maybe! No promises though."
74

brownlie,

21/04/2008 09:43:31
42 Highland

Because of geography and the nature of the terrain Scotland are in a unique position to catch the wind which is not as difficult as Donovan tried to have us believe.
75

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 09:44:37
#34 Rules. Yours is a completely pointless post. Why air your lack of self-confidence for all to see?
76

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 09:44:42
83. "In fact is was one of the senior guys in the bank of england that said that unemployment in scotland was a price worth paying to control inflation in the south."

Who said that and when?
77

Alan B,

21/04/2008 09:45:52
#79 Highland Mighty

" SNP proposes we withdraw ... from the 'Big Four' of the EU"

The snp simply believe we are not well represented by being a member of the UK within the EU. Even if one was to accept that there could be a theoretic benefit to being part of the big 4, one would also have to accept that it has not worked. The uk has isolated itsef over the last 50yrs in its relationship with the ec/eu, and made big arguments out of things with little appeal to scotland. Quite simply Londons interests are put first, and if that means selling out scotland so be it.

Can u actually come up with any advantages we have gained from being part of the uk within the eu (rather than advantages that u feel should accrue). We are not in the euro, we opted out of the social chapter (which scotland did not want) then opted back in again losing alot of political capital fighting something that we gave up anyway, we are alienated, and we have sold out industries like fishing.
78

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 09:46:05
#37 Add #36 to your list
79

Union is Best,

21/04/2008 09:46:58
90. Good work. We will have them in their place, Morris dancing with bells and knotted hankies, before lunch!
80

Colin Wilson,

21/04/2008 09:47:12
Re #79 : "Which is why the SNP proposes we withdraw from our place on the UN Security Council, on G8..."

Scotland doesn't have a place in those things. The idea that we do is just part of the UK's constitutional fiction.
81

Grahamski,

Falkirk 21/04/2008 09:47:34
63
Well aren't you a piece of work? How impressive you are, muscular christianity with a twist of nationalism. Wonderful, I loved your hectoring, wheedling, lying post. I particlulary chuckled at your personal attacks, very nationlist but not very christian?
To conclude with a suggestion that I am cowardly because I don't share your enthusiasm for nationalist politics says it all really.
82

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 09:49:26
#39 Citylocal fife

Alister Darling's imminent climb-down on the 10p tax rate will hopefully accelerate Brown's demise
83

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 09:49:55
87

Thats 57.5GW a day you tit. And where are you getting your figures from??? electricy consumtion is seasonal ie more in winter less in summer somewhere in between in Autumn. So you can hardly quantify it can you???
84

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 09:51:03
95

Still better than being a multi personality troll though eh??
85

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 09:52:12
#42 Grahamster

Unfortunately, your argument lacks credibility when you look at the share of the vote achieved by NuLab in the GE and the SNP in May 2007. Salmond has more of a mandate than Brown.
86

Union is Best,

21/04/2008 09:54:11
95. Well said. All true Christians would be campiagning at this time in support of Labour's doubling the tax on the lowest earners!
87

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 09:56:01
91. The social chapter was an expensive political gimmick that would have meant extensive new red tape on top of existing commercial, trading and employment legislation.

The euro has wreaked havoc with the economies of the eurozone countries which they are even now only starting to recover from. Germany, the powerhouse of the euro economy is a shadow of itself with high government debt, high taxes and high unemployment.

Why do the nats claim that the euro would be better for Scotland when it certainly hasn't shown many benefits to existing members?

As for being one of the Big Four, it is these countries that set the policies of the EU from trade to employment to the environment to transport.....if new policies have a negative effect on the four, then it will not become law.

The advantages of this include that the UK is now the second strongest economy in the EU, the second highest GDP per capita in the G7, the favourite-by-far destination for inward investment......[insert my 4-post list on the success of the UK economy here].
88

brownlie,

21/04/2008 09:56:12
95 Graham

My uncle Hector strongly objects to you using his name even if it is to attack the nats.
89

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 09:56:18
#48 HM

Independence is coming and your semi-hysterical rants are completely wasted.
90

John S,

21/04/2008 09:56:45
#81 - Scotland has an estimated potential of 36.5 GW of wind and 7.5 GW of tidal power, 25% of the estimated total capacity for the European Union and up to 14 GW of wave power potential, 10% of EU capacity.
Most wind turbines in the EU produce electricity at an average of 25% of their rated maximum power due to the intermittency of wind resources, but Scotland's wind regime provides average of 40% or higher on the west and northern coasts.
Source available on request.
91

Alan B,

21/04/2008 09:57:12
Highland Mighty:

In response to ur question about who in the bank of england said that higher unemployment in the north was a price worth paying to control inflation. (I had to google as i could not remember the name just the outcry at the time). It was Eddie George the head governor of the bank of england.

http://www.screenonline.org.uk/education/id/1272107/

there are also references to it here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/198833.stm

92

Grahamski,

Falkirk 21/04/2008 09:59:38
99
Oh behave, this is the real world.
100
Thank goodness you're here. Still by a mile the most amusing poster here. You're actually a nationalist and you don't actually believe whay yo say you're being sarcastic. Genius, you are the SNP's answer to William Hague - smug, smarmy and essentially a tory cheerleader...huzzah!
93

Union is Best,

21/04/2008 10:00:02
101. Well said, especially as the Euro zone has enjoyed lower interest rates than the UK for most of its existence. Germany is a great example, as it did not absord a large communist command economy and unify with it.

PS - when you say the UK is "the second strongest" economy in the EU, do you not think the fact the strongest is part of the Euro will undermine your first riff that the Euro has destroyed the economies of the countries which have it?

The Nats will never notice that that 6 small Euro zone countries have had double Scotland's average growth, so we are safe to peddle anything we want about the Euro! Onward Sterling (which has never suffered speculative collapse and fluctuation)!

94

AJ Fife,

21/04/2008 10:00:24
Terrific stuff from Scotland's first true leader. Mr Salmond's vision will become a reality and Broon will be history!

I think the last year in Scotland has been the best in 300+, despite the attempts by Westminster and Scottish unionists to pour scorn. They can't accept Scotland is heading towards a bright and exciting future, as an independent nation!
95

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 10:01:15
90

It was Eddie George and he in fact said unemployment in the North was a price worth paying in curbing inflation in the South.
96

Union is Best,

21/04/2008 10:02:09
106. Tsk tsk, United we Unionists stand in Unity! Now, I think we should bamboozle these Nats using Socialism to counter their Nationalism ala red Wendy - lets deploy a Labour policy pincer: I shall herald Labour's opposition to council house building in Scotland and you hit them with doubling tax on the low paid!
97

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 10:04:24
101

Every "independent" country in the EU has a vote not just the "big four" the big four only have one vote each same as everybody else.
Mind you thats still one more than Scotland has though eh??
98

Grahamski,

Falkirk 21/04/2008 10:04:24
83
You claimed the quote was about Scotland. That was a lie, wasn't it?
99

,

21/04/2008 10:04:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
100

Hebb,

21/04/2008 10:05:22
#42

"The one upside is that the more confident the SNP become the more we will see their true colours. We will see the essentially nagative and bitter nature of their outlook, and their need to do our country down for their own political advantage."

That last sentence is in fact the perfect description of the attitude of the unionist parties since the SNP election victory, encapsulated in Lab-Lib-Tory support for Westminster's planned theft of £400m of Scottish taxpayers' council tax benefit funds.
101

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 10:07:02
106

Dont like the taste of your own medicine then??
thats a kicker.
102

Union is Best,

21/04/2008 10:07:08
113. Highland, good work, but no trawling on the threads and propositioning Chavvy Nat trade for rough hook ups! Focus on the business at hand!

103

Publius,

London 21/04/2008 10:08:48
Most posts today are a long way from the original article.

I think that 20 seats is a realistic target, but, even if there is a hung Parliament, it won't give the SNP much leverage. Either Labour or the Tories will be the largest single party and will form the government.

The chances of all the other parties - main opposition, LibDems, SNP, Plaid Cymru, Ulster Unionists and the odd independent - all voting the same way on any issue are pretty remote. If they did, they would trigger a general election and the Tories would probably win outright.

if the Tories are the government, then with or without SNP votes, they will push through a few populist measures and go for another general election. Labour will be so demoralised that the Tories will win easily and won't need the SNP (or any other minor party) any more.

If Labour is the largest single party, it will still have lost a lot of votes and be demoralised. (Due to the electoral system the Tories will have won more votes than Labour - up to a million more voters - but fewer seats). If the SNP then props Labour up, it will be propping up a corpse. Labour won't be able to deliver anything the SNP wants.
104

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 10:08:51
113

Aye right just stick to doing what you do best and gob off with no substance.
105

John S,

21/04/2008 10:09:11
An independent Scotland would have 12-14 members of the EU parliament at present 7 being reduced to 6 in 2009.
106

Alan B,

21/04/2008 10:09:22
#101 Highland Mighty

"The social chapter was an expensive political gimmick that would have meant extensive new red tape on top of existing commercial, trading and employment legislation."

U missed my point. The tories opted out and used alot of political capital and then Blair took us in anyway. Scotland would have simply joined up and used the political capital for something that would have meant something. Again taking ur argument to it logical conclusion what u are arguing is england were right scotland was wrong so we were luck that england forced us to opt out. (until they voted differently a couple of yrs later and opted in).

The euro has not wrecked havok with Germany. German economic problems are to do with re-unification. Many of the problems arise when the the german chancellor over-ruled Karl Otto Poll (sorry about spelling) the head of the German central bank and did not adopt the 5:1 exhange rate with the east german currency and the mark. German economic problems pre-dates the euro anyway.

Lets face it none of the 3option of scotland having its own currency, using sterling, or the euro is perfect. A scottish currency would have the advantage of interest rates being best set for scotland. Being a member of a larger currency area has the advantages of removing currency fluxuations. the big problem with sterling which again u ignore as it does not fit in with ur political believe is that interest rates are too high over a long period of time. the euro does not have this disadvantage. Of course it would help if the uk would publish scottish inflation as then it would be a point of record.

I see u have not answered my question about what advantages have come scotlands way by being part of the eu but repeat why there should be advantages. Problem is theory and reality have worked out different.
107

brownlie,

21/04/2008 10:09:53
112 Graham


Quite right, Scotland is no longer in the North of the UK - it has been moved south to save MP's expenses and to enable strategic voting.
108

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 10:10:21
111. You clearly have no idea of the voting system in the EU. Every country has one vote, does it?

112. Come on, it's all lies with these nats. You know that!
109

David MacVicar,

web 21/04/2008 10:11:15
90 Highland Mighty:
"Who said that and when?"

It was Eddie George, Governor of the Bank of England from 1993 to 2003. You can look the rest up for yourself as it is difficult to educate unionists.

Suffice to say nothing has changed since.
The bank of England sets interest rates based solely on the financial status of the south. Post independence we would be tied to the pound sterling but BofE setting interest rates would be no different short term than it is now or has been since several decades!

Highland Mighty what exactly? Mighty ignorant is seems.
110

Union is Best,

21/04/2008 10:11:40
117. Publius - mmm, trying to lull us with reasonableness, but you miss the point that so many Unionist posters have tried to make! Salmond can set targets and aspirations for his party, but as a great number of Unionist posters have pointed out by declaring his target is impossible, seats granted to each party at an election is not up to the electorate, but up to us Unionists to decide based on what is best for the people.
111

Grahamski,

Falkirk 21/04/2008 10:12:11
114
Oh stop with the inane rhetoric - theft? Who do you think is impressed with this nonsense?
Why do the nationalists have to paint the Scots as so weak and feeble that they allow themselves to be robbed?
112

Arfur,

21/04/2008 10:12:47
Great first year by the SNP even if it was helped by those spluttering fools Labour.

HM - you are a liar, you post by at least 4 names not just the one. You also come on as another name to back up your own points. You are one sad individual.
113

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 10:13:19
119. Wrong, Foulkes says countries only have one vote each! More nat lies.

(Also, as there is a limit on 751 seats, Scottish membership would require a reduction for all small countries....which will no doubt go down well!)
114

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 10:13:40
127. Grow up, silly child.
115

Grahamski,

Falkirk 21/04/2008 10:14:22
124
Except Eddie George didn't say that. If you would take a moment to actually check out the links the quote had nothing to do with Scotland. Another example of nationalists making things up to suit their own bitter wee narrow obsessions.
116

Union is Best,

21/04/2008 10:14:29
121. Good save. When the governor of the Bank of ENgland said "unemployment in the North is a price worth paying" this did not include Scotland, as we had already re-banded "North" Sea Oil bearing acreage further south.

In future the "North" Sea will be termed the "Mid" Sea to avoid such confusions.
117

Logic fading,

21/04/2008 10:14:45
Mr Salmond said: "The reality of the 21st
century is that the processes of (1)
independence and interdependence are one
and the same."

Salmond also thinks the way to indepences (2)
is by dissolution of a Union.


Derived from (1)
Interdependence = Independence (3)

Dervive from (2)
Independence = good (4)

Substitute (3) into (4)

Interdependence = good.



It is obvious Salmond just hates the English, like a lot of irrational SNP folks. Either that or the only way he can ever gain power is by expoiting those that do in Scotland. Sad really.
118

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 10:15:03
123

I know Scotland doesnt have one unless you know different??
119

Union is Best,

21/04/2008 10:16:23
128. Highland mighty - "Also, as there is a limit on 751 seats, Scottish membership would require a reduction for all small countries....which will no doubt go down well!)"

- quite right, as the EU has increased from 12 to 27 members in a couple of decades with unanimous consent of all existing members, clearly it is against new members like Scotland joining.
120

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 10:16:58
133. Have you looked up the actual voting systems of the EU now? Was it the SNP that told you it was one vote per country?

Aren't you the idiot of the board! LOL!
121

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 10:17:52
128

You implied Scotland had a say in the G8, the EU, The world bank, the IMF and you call me a liar??
122

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 10:18:31
135

See 136 like I said what a tit.
123

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 10:19:14
Wow! There are so many nats on here who have no clue about the EU's voting system!

Quick, get to the SNP website and find out!
124

Grahamski,

21/04/2008 10:19:33
131
No master Hague, you obviously don't understand. Maybe you should just listen when the grown-ups are talking rather than butting in and making a fool of yourself. Now sit quietly and we'll call when we want to hear some of your hysterically funny and really really clever sarcasm. There's a good boy...
125

Alan B,

21/04/2008 10:19:34
#112 Grahamski "You claimed the quote was about Scotland. That was a lie, wasn't it?"

Do not be so pathetic. I have posted what i could find from the quote when Highland requested. The quote i think actually talked about the north (ie north of britain, which yes scotland is a big part of).

Now if u are going to comment actually say why u defend his comments.

The fact is he was correct. The bank of england should set interest rates to control inflation and if that means having higher intest rates that required for the north that is what should happen. However it shows 2 things.

1.the government should be implementing structural reform to reduce the differences between the north and the south. they will never do that for political considerations.

2. sterling is not necessarily good for the scottish economy. I do not think many economists would argue interest rates set for scotland would be better than that set for the euro. However that is not the full picture as u have to take into account how it would effect trade with the important english market.
126

Grahamski,

Falkirk 21/04/2008 10:21:54
138
Better stay away from the nat's website on Europe. They are not prone to consistency when it comes to Europe. Best not intrude on private grief...anyway, Wikipedia seems to be their favourite source. Very reliable too...
127

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 10:22:23
138

And yet you think Scotland has an influence in the world stage?? you even think Scotland has an influence in the UK??? Is that no the height of stupidy then??
128

Union is Best,

21/04/2008 10:23:23
136. Scotland does have a say at the G8. It was held at Gleneagles once, and the UK government sent Tayside police the bill. If picking up the tab is not the sign of the big man, I don't know what else is!
129

Grahamski,

Falkirk 21/04/2008 10:24:51
140
To deliberately misquote somebody to fall into line with your narrow parochial view of Britain is contemptable. You know fine well that the quote had nothing to do with England and Scotland per se, but you changed it and used it anyway. You got caught and don't like it. Tough, deal with it you pathetic liar.
130

A Voice From Scotland,

21/04/2008 10:24:59
Two unionist nutters left to howl, awoooooo awooooooo, it is a full moon after all.

Gramski/Highland nighty get of your knees and stop your sniveling and cringing, you are an embarrassment to humanity with your supine groveling and sycophantic fawning over the corpse of the corrupt fascist union.

You sound like the peasants on some Lairds estate, standing cap in hand to collect your weekly pennies and rewards. Yes Sir no Sir three bags full Sir. Here sir take my earnings and hand me back my pocket money Sir please Sir.

You are the stuff the union was made of. Pathetic frightened wee minded fearties running to open the gates for the Laird, quick run and hide here he comes.

More good press for Salmond, what an excellent well attended conference. Great to see so many brave well educated Scots in one of the countries top universities, exchanging visionary and forward thinking ideas, we will go from strength to strength.
131

John S,

21/04/2008 10:26:06
#123 - That is why all 27 countries in the EU have to ratify the Lisbon Treaty with one vote per country, it doesn't matter how big or small the country is (population) they still have a veto on this issue.
132

,

21/04/2008 10:26:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
133

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 10:26:32
145

Would the same apply to presenting misleading statistics???
134

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 10:26:43
142. It's "ANY influence..." or just "influence", and "height of stupidITy"

Just because you disagree, it really doesn't mean its wrong. In fact, that you disgaree pretty much proves it's right.
135

Union is Best,

21/04/2008 10:26:52
145 - see 144, he's behind you. Damn, and you were doing so well, calling people liars for saying Eddie George said that, now you are holed below the water line and a laughing stalk - Highland will advise how to deal with this.

Still, as we Unionists are happy to defend unemploymenmt in Scotland to curb overheating in the South East, so just pick yourself up and try to move on!
136

,

21/04/2008 10:27:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
137

A Voice From Scotland,

21/04/2008 10:27:39
IAN RANKIN

AUTHOR

I'm a lot more sanguine that I was before the election. There seems to be thought in the party, as well as ideas and individuals with personality. There hasn't been that much you can point to and they have been keeping the ship steady. Almost everybody I know who weren't SNP supporters says they are pleasantly surprised. That is partly due to the London parties shooting themselves in the foot. But they have had a lucky ride so far and I'm sure it won't last.
138

A Voice From Scotland,

21/04/2008 10:28:04
SIR TOM FARMER

ENTREPRENEUR

I was with someone earlier today who wasn't a supporter who told me that they were surprised by the SNP administration and admitted that they had proved him wrong. That sums up what would apply to so many people. There is a general feeling that things are happening for the better. There is a buzz about the place. People feel that there is a change taking place. I can't put a finger on it but there is a freshness of approach. There is a feel-good factor. People feel that in Alex Salmond there is a strong man who leads the party, and whether they agree with him or not they feel that at least we have a leader who is fighting Scotland's corner.
139

A Voice From Scotland,

21/04/2008 10:28:44
MICHAEL FRY

HISTORIAN

I was one of those who converted to the SNP, and I switched not without some misgivings because I thought it might all be a bit too left-wing. But we have got moderate, pragmatic sensible government. There have been a few tactical mistakes, like over Trump, but nothing too bad. I think Scots do not sleep more uneasily because of Alex Salmond. On the contrary, they sleep more securely.
140

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 10:29:19
#59 It could be argued that Scotland's economy is weathering the economic storm better than the UK as a whole. Sorry if this fact is inconvenient to your big-is-best theory.
141

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 10:29:19
147. Look up the voting system in the Council and the Parliament and then come back and tell me it's one vote per country.

148. Union Is Best is a NAT, you numpty! (It's nice to see that someone reads his posts though.)
142

Union is Best,

21/04/2008 10:29:25
147. Indeed, on alot of matters where Qualified Majority Voting does not apply all countries have effectively one vote and a veto. That Highland is unaware of this should not be used to ridicule him, as he was trying his best when he sneered at the notion of non-QMV votes in the EU.

143

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 10:30:25
150

The benefits of employing a spell checker eh??

Really so why dont you tell us when was the the last time Scotland got a government it voted for without the help from the South of England???
Do that then I will retract. Something which you seem incapable of doing.
144

Grahamski,

Falkirk 21/04/2008 10:30:55
151
Master Hague,
Again you misunderstand, best to keep quiet when the adults are talking. Haven't you got a nice colouring book to keep you occupied? There's a good boy, now shoosh or you'll be sent your room..
145

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 10:31:13
Ah, the SNP Political Commissar is here.

Everyone say "Good morning" to Voice from Scotland.
146

brownlie,

21/04/2008 10:32:04
141 Graham

Quite right - there is much confusion in the nat ranks regarding Europe. No such confusion in the mind of the voters who were promised a referendum in the Labour election manifesto and are still waiting.
147

Alan B,

21/04/2008 10:32:10
#145 Grahamski

Are u really trying to be stupid.

If u read what i was saying it was not a scotland v england thing as u claim. It was in context of an arguement about whether interest rates set by the bank of england for sterling were appropriate for scotland economy. This quote from the governor shows they are not necessarily and in practise we can see they have been set at too high a level over a period of time. I was arguing that that interest rates set by the euro would be much more inline with scotlands economic interests.

This link says the quote came from Newnight scotland
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/611241.stm

By ur immature insults i take it u have no economic knowledge to actually challenge what i have been saying.

148

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 10:32:56
161

So what are you then a professional troll or just a personal one??
149

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 10:33:30
#65 Rules

An example of the "cringe" at its very worst!
150

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 10:34:19
162

I suspect there is confusion all over the UK with regards to Europe. There is so much disinformation being put out by both Labour and the Tories.
151

Union is Best,

21/04/2008 10:34:29
160. Grahamski, nice try, but I think everyone could still read posts 145 and 144 where you denied Edddie George said unemployment in the North was a price worth paying to lower inflation in the SE and the quote was supplied...(ouch)

Personally I would be feeling like a prize pillock if that had happened to me, but Jackie says I am less prone to such bombastic and spectacular errors on here than you are!

if you are feeling like an idiot having been caught out by the Nats, ask HM how he deals with it - he is in a bit of bother on non QMV in the EU!
152

Porky,

Southern British EU Regions 21/04/2008 10:35:38
#35 Seriously/Amused
"rather than what is demanded by the more populated southern part of England"
Yes, you in Scotland are ignored, but it's not because they take notice of us in England. The trough swiller MPs have only one set of interests in mind - their own. I wish you independence soon, then we can break free of labour rule which has never had a majority in England. Home Rule for England - scrap the Union and the EU - is what most indigenous English want. Don't forget that it is us who are lumbered with most of the British citizens" who are not English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish
153

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 10:35:41
159. Q. The last time Scotland got a government it voted for without the help from the South of England?

A. 2005.
154

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 10:39:25
169

Aye right.
155

Publius,

London 21/04/2008 10:40:25
#125 Union is best

Not sure what point you are trying to make. I simply said that I thought 20 seats was a realistic target and then had a stab at the dynamics of Westminster as a hung parliament.
I am not much into futurology, but I don't think a hugh parliament is very likely. If there is a hung parliament, there will likely be a further general election within a year or so. In other words, a general election round about the same time as the next Holyrood election. Now that would be interesting ....
156

westcider,

Isle of Lewis 21/04/2008 10:41:51
Highland Midgie #44 #79 etc.
Be assured that Scotland's assets, although serious pocket money to Westminster, will be of a value equal to ten times that when put to use for the benefit of Scotland only. We will be better off, and by an eye watering margin.
157

,

21/04/2008 10:42:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
158

,

21/04/2008 10:43:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
159

Union is Best,

21/04/2008 10:43:46
172. I was reinforcing the point made by my many Unionist allies on here, that we will decide what is realistic or not for the number of MPs parties are to get!
160

Publius,

London 21/04/2008 10:45:13
What is all this stuff about the EU and Euro?

It is almost impossible what would be effects of an independent Scotland joining the Euro. There is no consensus yet about whether the Euro has been good for the 12 original members. In the last few weeks there has been speculation about either Italy or Spain or both leaving the Euro. Not very likely, but anything is possible

161

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 10:46:52
173

All of the arguments for independence have been made already several times on these blogs but they are ignored. Nobody has made a case for Scotland within the union yet all we get is negative spin and outright lies regarding possible independent scenarios from the cringe to the outright bizarre.
162

Union is Best,

21/04/2008 10:49:12
172. I was trolling the point made by my many Nationalist allies on here, that we will decide what is realistic or not for the number of MPs parties are to get!
163

Union is Best,

21/04/2008 10:49:53
179. Oooh fakey wars
164

A Voice From Scotland,

21/04/2008 10:49:56
TAM DALYELL

FORMER LABOUR MP

I think Alex Salmond is drawing enormous goodwill from his opposition at an early stage to the Iraq war and the action in Afghanistan. My view is that there has got to be a referendum but that there should be a question on whether or not you wish the Scottish Parliament to continue. My view is that if the Parliament continues then it is a motorway to independence because everyone in any parliament wants more power – even the Tories want it now in Scotland.
165

Pat Scot,

21/04/2008 10:50:14
There's some clever, simple stuff going on here.

Firstly, by setting an ambitious target, and presenting it as achievable, he enthuses his supporters.
Secondly, he keeps the old independence point open as something people want to talk about. It wouldn't surprise me if his supporters have specifically been told to use all opportunities to provoke discussion on the point (work, pub, discussion boards like this). A simple, cheap PR strategy. Clever.

On the target 20, I think he'll falter. He may have money behind him, but many voters would not trust SNP with their Westminster seat, especially if they're in power here. Labour's vote will drop, but there's just as much likelihood of the Liberals and maybe Tories gaining ground.

On the second point, that may be his undoing in the Westminster elections. Independence will be perceived as less important than foreign policy (War) and the economy.

Grant him this - he's tactically very good. He may be a lone star, and I'd struggle to name any in Holyrood who shine half as bright.
166

Hebb,

21/04/2008 10:50:33
#126

"Why do the nationalists have to paint the Scots as so weak and feeble that they allow themselves to be robbed?"

That's not what I said. This country is being denied the £400m our taxpayers have paid into the UK Treasury because Labour at Westminster wishes to prevent Scotland from introducing a fair system of local government taxation. Unionist parties north of the border are colluding in this shameful attack on Scotland's public service funding.

I think it's true to say that Scotland in the Union is enfeebled. This is precisely why this nation is moving steadily and inexorably towards the normality of Independence.
167

A Voice From Scotland,

21/04/2008 10:50:49
CORONATION STREET BETTYS HOTPOT.


Ingredients
4 large chicken pieces (leg with thigh portions)
1 ounce seasoned flour
2 ounces butter
1 1/2 lbs scraped tiny new potatoes
1 garlic clove , crushed
12 baby onions , peeled
4 slices streaky bacon , diced
4 stalks celery , sliced
4 ounces button mushrooms
salt and black pepper
1 pint chicken stock
1 teaspoon dried herbs
1 teaspoon paprika
1 bay leaf
chopped fresh parsley (to garnish)
Directions
1Set oven to 350*F or mark 4.
2Toss the chicken joints in the seasoned flour. Melt the butter

in a frying pan and brown the chicken until golden all over.
3Place the joints in a large caserole dish and add the potatoes.
4Put the garlic, onions, bacon celery and mushrooms in the pan

you browned the chicken in and cook for a few minutes. Add the

remaining flour and stir well. Add the stock gradually, stirring

constantly, until thickened. Add the herbs and paprika and check

seasoning.
5Pour over the chicken and potatoes.
6Add the bayleaf, cover and cook for 1 to 1 1/2 hours until the

meat is tender.
7Remove the bayleaf and garnish with the parsley.
8Serve with carrots.
168

A Voice From Scotland,

21/04/2008 10:51:57
JAMES MITCHELL

PROFESSOR OF POLITICS, STRATHCLYDE UNIVERSITY

The SNP has governed as it campaigned a year ago. It has been upbeat and positive, avoiding the bombast of the past. Its message has been constructive. Relations with London have been unremarkable other than in confounding critics who predicted endless battles with London. There have been skirmishes, but no more so than in any normal system of inter-governmental relations, nor even than relations between the old Scottish Office and the rest of Whitehall. Only the delusional and partisans interpret differences between Holyrood and Westminster as a game plan to foster conflict. Predictions of another election within months have also been confounded.

Minority government has limited the SNP's ability to implement its manifesto but less so than might have been expected. Minority government has rapidly taken on a Scandinavian feel – requiring majority-building in Parliament – and the SNP has taken to it with ease. Polls on independence fluctuate wildly and are fairly meaningless, not least because the prospect of a referendum seems distant. Ironically, it has taken an SNP Government to show how devolution should work.
169

Saul Tyre,

Germany 21/04/2008 10:53:31
I see that our resident Unionist posters Grahamski, Union is Best and Highland Mighty have not ccordinated their attacks on the SNP very well. The three of them seem mighty divided to me.
170

Alan B,

21/04/2008 10:54:42
Publius

"What is all this stuff about the EU and Euro?"

The discussion originated, with regard to Highland Mighty saying it was advantageous for scotland to be a member of the EU as part of the UK rather than scotland being a member on her own right.

Scotland being part of the uk cannot join the euro even if it is in scotlands economic interests to do so unless england decide to do so too.

One of the reasons for scotlands low economic growth can be put down to UK monetary policy. ie interest rates within the uk have been too high for the scottish economy. It is therefore important that we atleast look at the other options.

It is almost undeniable that euro interest rates would be better for the scottish economy than those of sterling.
171

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 10:55:39
#87 Highland Mighty

"The EU consumes 3,000,000GW of electricity a year"

This statement shows your lack of understanding. A GW is not a measure of energy consumption, it is a measure of electrical output at any given time and therefore to express it over a "year" is totally meaningless.

Go away and do some meaningful research.
172

­G­rahamski,

Falkirk 21/04/2008 10:56:34
186. Rubbish, we are perfectly coordinated. I am attacking the Nats from the left using Labour's doubling of tx on the lowest earners and Highland is using confusion!
173

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 10:57:52
186

UIB is not a unionist hes or she is a Nat.

113

Actually HM that is an interesting wee post if you can guarantee I wouldnt be so abusive in person then that implys you know who I am in which case you must work for the Scotsman. So if you know who I am and where I live why dont you pop down for a wee cup o tea and we can discuss anything you like in any way you like???
174

Alan Reid,

NZ 21/04/2008 10:59:48
DO not see why Scotland HAS to join the EU, Norway is not in it and it's doing just fine.
I think this is good though, well done Mr Salmond leading from the right.
175

­G­rahamski,

Falkirk 21/04/2008 11:00:17
188. Typical Nat idiot. A GW is German car. Quite sporty.
176

,

21/04/2008 11:00:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
177

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 11:01:36
#106 If you can't deal with the point just revert to "behave yourself" types of response, thereby totaaly ducking the issue as usual.
178

brownlie,

21/04/2008 11:03:09
186 Saul

Us unionists have a diversity of opinions and interests and despite being handicapped by Highland and Grahamski we will force the scottish electorate to vote us in again. Things can only get better as some nonentity once said.
179

­G­rahamski,

Falkirk 21/04/2008 11:03:10
195. I think you will find that vulnerable two year olds do not pay income tax, so Labour has not attacked them by doubling tax on the low paid.

Unlike the SNP's local income tax, which vulnerable 2 year olds will pay.
180

AJ Fife,

21/04/2008 11:07:07
200??
181

,

21/04/2008 11:08:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
182

Miss H,

21/04/2008 11:08:36
Twenty seats is achievable but will require a lot of work. Most activists are in the mood for it though so I think we will pull it off and maybe even exceed the target.

183

Saul Tyre,

Germany 21/04/2008 11:10:59
Your attacks don't look all that ccordinated to me. Union is Best has had to correct some of your posts and some of those sent by Highland Mighty. I can underatand your irritation but when you resort to calling one of your own team a 'Nat', it only demonstrates a severe lack of unity and this is nothing new given the different political backgrounds of Unionists.
184

Union is Best,

21/04/2008 11:13:29
It is advisable to take what you read here with a large pinch of salt.

That's all.
185

David MacVicar,

web 21/04/2008 11:14:55
130 Grahamski

Believe what you want. Maybe you think Scotlands Economy is the same as the SE of England?

Lets put it another way and bring it forward today. Do you think BofE interst rate settings has any real influence from Scotlands financial position?

Get real. Eddie was referring to the North as N England but the effect was the same and meant the same in Scotland and elsewhere. You know damn well that he meant focusing on success in the South as the price to pay elsewhere in the UK as a whole. The only question was how far North does North begin?

The only answer is that Scotland, unlike the North of England, can do something about it.
186

Publius,

London 21/04/2008 11:15:23
#187 Interesting point but remember that different parts of the Scottish economy would probably flourish best under different systems. Banking (Edinburgh) is probably best under sterling; Manufacturing, especially factories owned by overseas companies (Inverclyde, Central Belt) would probably be better with Euro; oil (Aberdeen) probably best going it alone like Norway.
And that is the calculation for now. Ten years on and the calculation would probably be different! It's all very speculative.
187

Publius,

London 21/04/2008 11:15:30
#187 Interesting point but remember that different parts of the Scottish economy would probably flourish best under different systems. Banking (Edinburgh) is probably best under sterling; Manufacturing, especially factories owned by overseas companies (Inverclyde, Central Belt) would probably be better with Euro; oil (Aberdeen) probably best going it alone like Norway.
And that is the calculation for now. Ten years on and the calculation would probably be different! It's all very speculative.
188

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 11:17:50
204

Dont tell us you work for the Scotsman as well??
189

Publius,

London 21/04/2008 11:22:01
#199 Your point is ridiculous. 2 year olds are not in employment. ... but the arguments about taxation are real and important. Many of them have been rehearsed on this board, but some new points have emerged over the weekend.
(1) 10 per cent row. Labour ministers who talk of 7 or 8 billion are enumerate. The real figure is between 700 million and 800 million.
(2) There is some speculation - Guardian - that if the government is defeated on this issue and the 42 day detention issue then Brown will resign.
(3) There is a lesson for the SNP in this. Don't meddle with taxation. Abandon LIT before it is too late.
190

European Scot,

21/04/2008 11:22:15
177 Publius

" It is almost impossible what would be effects of an independent Scotland joining the Euro. There is no consensus yet about whether the Euro has been good for the 12 original members. In the last few weeks there has been speculation about either Italy or Spain or both leaving the Euro. Not very likely, but anything is possible "

The Euro is a strong and more to the point stable currency.
Whilst the Dollar and Pound have dropped, the Euro relative to them has gone up, simply by maintaining its own value.
Witnessing the Dollar and the Pound fall in value to the Euro is no joke, especially when you are receiving payments from Scotland.
Last year I could buy one Euro for 67 pence.
Today it will cost around 79 pence.
Both rates would also be subject to a charge for commission.
For me and many others, the sooner Scotland is in the Euro the better.
Getting ripped off by exchange rates, and a fluctuating Pound is not exactly helpful.
Currently living in Spain, which has gained so much from being in the Euro, and which still enjoys low interest rates, it would be reasonable to state that it is unlikely Spain will be leaving the Euro anytime soon.
191

,

21/04/2008 11:22:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
192

roughrider,

Glasgow 21/04/2008 11:27:31
I see Broon stuff has went into anti SNP mode at the stuc conference.
Does he realise how stupid he sounds as he walks up and down the stage frothing at the mouth talking utter sh*te.
193

shivago8,

livingston 21/04/2008 11:28:23
We are on our way,strong words from our leader,the 300 years of union stagnation,stand still,hopeless road and rail net works second class citizens is about to change.
Alex stand fast in the faith and be strong.
Keep telling Westminster to listen to us,and not the other way.
Scotland the brave,
194

,

21/04/2008 11:28:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
195

brownlie,

21/04/2008 11:36:44
204 Union

The pinch will be de-salinated from the North Sea under our unionist plans to harvest Scotland's natural resources. Or do you mean the pinch felt by vulnerable (non-tax paying or voting) two year olds that we are determined to protect.
196

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 11:37:31
204. The only true thing you have ever written.
197

Phil the Flooter,

Perthshire 21/04/2008 11:38:28
# 28 'Jings the FM looks like a man impersonating a bumble bee about to take off.'

Quite agree with you, very funny pic-as a snapper myself I wouldnt have even bothered wiring that one in... But its hilarious anyway.
198

Raymond Thomas Brooke,

Leven England 21/04/2008 11:39:44
I posted yesterday that this is the way to independencefor Scotland, breakdown the hold that the money grabbing B....rs have at the moment force them into an English Parliament and thereafter independence for all four countries will follow.
199

Phil the Flooter,

Perthshire 21/04/2008 11:40:08
Oops should be #26
200

Alan B,

21/04/2008 11:42:12
Publius

It is all speculative to some degree as no-one can predict the future. But in making in any decision u have to use ur best judgement based on what has gone before and what is most likely to happen in the future.

It is also correct to say that from the 3 options available none are perfect.

Sterling has been too high for scotland for a long time. We would really need a government who would really challenge the north south divide to sort this out. When i was younger i felt it inevitable that a british government would do this. However i realise this was nieve and that this is unlikely to ever happen. Federalisation of england could help, but again it is not going to happen. The only thing that could really change the unevenness is the technologically revolution that been happening. (this is just a might).

Why do u say the euro would be inappropriate for edinburgh? There seems nothing specific to the euro that would make it so.

The big question is would big corporations that have big exposure to the european markets rather be within the euro.

The euro interest rates would be better for all scotland. The only disadvantage would be 1)transition from sterling 2)whether it damages trade with england.

The best situation would be if england would also join but we cannot and should not ignore making a decision for scotland benefit because england do not want to join.

I disagree with ur regional break down. Not sure why Aberdeen would be best having its own currency. U could argue than being an oil currency it could hurt the wider Aberdeen economy to have it own currency. This arguement was used in the late 70s about why scotland should not be independent.
201

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 11:42:56
194. I see a nat has hijacked my username again.

How it just highlights the empty void that is the nat argument that they have to pose as unionists instead.

How it just highlights the immaturity of the nat teenagers on here that they can't maintain sensible debate but instead resort to peurile games, insults, abuse and wild unsubstantiated claims (which reminds me, where is ranting-and-raging Jackie Priest today?).

Are there any nationalists that AREN'T neds?
202

Saul Tyre,

Germany 21/04/2008 11:43:00
#217 Temper, temper...
203

European Scot,

21/04/2008 11:45:05
215 The Spook in Leith

It was in answer to the post by Publius commenting on the question of an Independent Scotland joining the Euro.
He was questioning the value of the Euro and whether it had been good for the twelve original members.
As a Scot living for the moment in Spain I was replying to that.
I happen to believe in an Independent Scotland joining the Euro.
204

Saul Tyre,

Germany 21/04/2008 11:45:17
#194 Offering support for a change. I see my posts have had their effect.
205

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 11:46:47
210

I genuinely dont understand your concerns for LIT with respect to council tax. The SNP propose to abolish a hated tax for what is deemed by the majority to be fairer and you think its a vote loser??

Why?? If it adversely affects you personally then I can understand yer concerns but that wont affect the SNPs standing with the electorate.
206

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 11:47:54
221. You just keep saying that Euro interest rates would be better for Scotland, just because they are lower than UK rates.

The fact they apply to the euro nations struggling with high unemployment, high borrowing, high taxes, poor growth and high deficits is irrelevant.
207

langtonian,

scotus 21/04/2008 11:50:39
#39 CitylocalFife.-"INGRATE", With First Minister of the Scottish Executive, on one of his "cloud cuckoo in your dream's"fantasy prediction,s,vis-a-vis his "wishing well"from where he is to pluck some 20 additional seats;he would have to put on the back burner, his current stated promise to resign from his present Westminster seat,the alternative would be to declare before the next 2010/2011 election he would have to exit as as First Minister of the Scottish Executive.

As a well acknowledged "Jigger and Jouker" it is an impossibillity even for him, to be in two places at once,and a decision will have to be made prior to any Election.
208

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 11:52:41
188. Yep, "the year" bit was an error. If only there as an edit facility on here!

So back to the nat claim that with a POTENTIAL 57.5GW of renewable energy to contribute to Europe's 3,000,000GW demand (or 0.001%), how is that going to make us all rich again?
209

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 11:54:47
230

What black hole??
210

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 11:56:41
Foulkes, anything to retract after my post 169?
211

Publius,

London 21/04/2008 11:57:21
#221 Alan B

Alan. I agree this is very speculative. My reasoning is this:
(1) Banking benefits from its close connection to the City of London. The City has flourished because it is a sort of off-shore island or big Switzerland - not in dollar or Euroland. Leaving sterling would loosen this connection and the Edinburgh banks might move some operations to London.
(2) Overseas manufacturers see Europe as a single zone. They usually locate plants where costs are low - increasingly eastern Europe. Otherwise they prefer to locate in the Eurozone to minimise internal transaction costs as they move components etc from one European country to another.
(3) Oil. If Scotland had its own currency it would be a petro-currency, very strong indeed. Scotland would amass large foreign currency reserves enabling a big sovereign wealth fund from which to buy foreign assets. But a very strong currency would knock out large parts of manufacturing industry, because they would not be able to compete with manufacturing in other countries.
212

,

21/04/2008 12:01:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
213

Arfur,

21/04/2008 12:02:24
#234 - found it.




o



It was in Never Never Land.
214

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/04/2008 12:03:14
Making predictions about the next election which could be up to 3 years away is something of a lottery. There are a number of different issues that I think make it almost impossible to make any sort of accurate forecast.

* The performance of the SNP government - undoubtedly doing well at present but scope for a crisis to happen yet. First possibility could be next year's budget if Swinney does not get his sums right.

* The economy - things don't look good for Labour right now but if steps such as the effective nationalisation of mortgages through Treasury bonds steady the economy then Labour could come out on the credit side in a few years time.

* The Labour Party - Labour, despite being unpopular still did well at the last Scottish Election, only losing 4 seats overall. If the SNP are to make any headway it must be into Labour's core vote which does look decidedly shaky. That being said - the threat of a Tory government may coalesce the core vote.

* The Labour PM - if Brown continues to perform badly then a change of leadership could give us a whole new ball game. It would need not just the Blairite malcontents but some of the Brownies to get him to go - whether he would is another matter!! Having a new leader may not necessarily reinvigorate Labour - if they went for someone like Milliband then I believe it would be a huge mistake. The only one I can see who has some sort of substance and appeal (particularly working class credentials) would be Alan Johnson.

* The Tories - doing well at present but will increasingly find their policies (or lack of them) under scrutiny. Moreover, they have a habit of shooting themselves in the foot when it matters - Europe could be a possibility but also Cameron's own flirtation with more liberal social policies could cause ructions with the right-wingers.

* The Lib Dems - floundering in the polls yet always seem to outperform when it matters - I would not be surprised if the same happens again. They may
215

Alan B,

21/04/2008 12:07:00
#227 Highland Mighty

Do u understand monetary policy?

Deficits are fiscal policy. The uk has high deficits and the euro has a rule where debts are mean to be less than 3% a yr. UK has broken that under brown.

However that is really beside the point. Generally speaking interest rates should be set as low as possible consistent with low inflation. ie higher interest rates will slow the economy. Higher interest rates also mean the currency will be higher than it would otherwise be. although there are other factors at play.

The point is if the south east grows faster than scotland and that leads to higher interest rates then it means slower growth for scotland. We know scotland has suffered slow growh. As i point out the uk government does not publish scottish inflation rates but it is generally accepted scottish inflation would be considerably lower than the much faster growing south of england. Scotland therefore should really have lower interest rates.

The problem is compounded in the uk because of the housing market, in which again the south of england is the dominent player.

Therefore knowing sterling interest rates is not appropriate for scotland u have to look at the alternatives. An independent currency which would have the most appropriate rates, but have the disadvantage of increased costs becuase of currency transaction. Or the euro. The euro interest rates are better than sterling for scotland. ie they are lower and have consistently been lower. The also give the stability of a large currency. The big issue with leaving sterling is to work out the implication for trade with england.

note labour and the lib dems both support the euro (Jack McConnell said he supported it) but we are not in a position to join even if it were in scotland interests. There position seems to be "Yes", but not until england says "yes" also. Not a particularly credible position.
216

Arfur,

21/04/2008 12:07:08
222 Highland Mighty - 'How it just highlights the empty void that is the nat argument that they have to pose as unionists instead'

What about the empty void that is the volume of unionist posters? there are maybe 7 regular posers, of which you are about 3 of them.
217

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 12:10:14
239. What are you on about? I'm ALL of them. The whole world, even you, is a figment of my imagination.

Watch this, I'll get Foulkes to post another ill-informed effort......
218

Alan Reid,

NZ 21/04/2008 12:10:43
#190, utter crap. Scotland pays in well more than it get from England.
219

Lilly,

Elgin 21/04/2008 12:13:42
Highland Mighty,

Is it true?

Are you using the alias British Pride and others to back up your own arguments?

Please answer , yes or no, coz if U R, wouldn't you agree your credibility goes right out the window?

It's downright dishonest.
220

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 12:16:53
234. It's not a 'rebate'; it's Council Tax Benefit = social security stuff = UK Govt jobbie.

It's all p*sh, tosh and nonsense this as CTB will have to be transferred to Income Supplement when LIT comes in, hitting anyone with a salary who will be paying for the unemployed, the sicknote army and the rich.

And its about time THESE people were given a freebie.
221

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 12:17:52
242. For the Brazillionth time, I use one username.

And Jackie Priest (come on, did you really think 'she' was for real?!)
222

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 12:19:24
232

Like what??
223

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 12:20:08
241. Prove it.

Personally, I'm happy to accept we benefit from the UK. Everyone does outside the southern regions.

And it's not a matter of bruised pride for me as I certainly contribute my fair share (which is more than can be said for the students and ex-pats that make up the nationalist contingent).

Get over yourself, man.
224

Edward,

21/04/2008 12:20:49
#227 Highland Mighty
I see your still peddling your guff!
Can you not just accept that an Independent Scotland would do rather well in the World, or is that beyond your comprehension
Face facts, the Union with England that is called The United Kingdom is well and truly over. It wasnt popular 300 years ago and its still not popular
There is a lot more going for Scotland that most of the countries in Europe in respect of resources
The UK Treasury have been bleeding Scotland for the last 300 years, its the treasuries cash cow
Even today, the Labour government refuse to provide the £ 400 million in block grant, desite the fact that the money belongs to Scotland
the excuse being that its only for councils, except that its not
At every turn Labour have made every effort to undermine the Scottish Government since the SNP took over in May of 2007. Before May, the Labour and Libdem administration, weere largely just ignored and were dictated to as to what they should be doing (PFI/PPP, City Academies are examples). Even when Labour lost the election, they were in denial, then the Labour group in Holyrood had the embaressing spectacle of haveing being told that there new leader is Wendy Alexander, by Gordon Brown, no leader election no democracy!
Its time to cut loose and for Scotland to become indpendent with fully indpendent political parties
The cracks in Scottish Labour are getting wider
Wendy Alexander looked tired at the last FMQ's, obvuisly up all night getting her orders from Gordon. She looked fed up, which probably explains why she ran out of steam at FMQ's and just couldnt hack it. She will be resigning soon (my money is that she will step down after the english council elections)
225

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 12:21:30
234

A black hole is the difference in spending commitments to revenue raised not the difference in the revenue raised between 2 different tax systems didnt you know that??
226

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/04/2008 12:21:50
(continued)

* The Lib Dems - floundering in the polls yet always seem to outperform when it matters - I would not be surprised if the same happens again. They may also benefit from voters defecting from Labour.

* The Other Parties - there is no doubt that the SNP benefited from the weakness of the minority parties at the last election. I particular the lack of a strong party of the Trotskyite left meant that the SNP picked up many of the Labour protest votes. Sheridan's case has probably dented any hope of a revival of the far left's fortunes but the SNP may still not be best placed to pick up the protest votes. Some protest votes may go to the Lib Dems because they are NOT in government at all.

* Splitting of government - voters are increasingly adept at splitting their loyalties - some may like the idea of having different parties govern Holyrood and Westminster.
227

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 12:24:27
248. Prove it. Produce accounts that show that Scotland has paid more into the UK joint account than it has withdrawn.

I notice the nats are avoiding any acknowledgement that Salmond's Futures Trust is just PFI with ALL the risk and debt transferred from the private sector to the taxpayer....
228

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 12:25:08
249. A black hole is a collapsed star.

God, you're dim.

229

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 12:25:55
246

Prove it doesnt.
230

Alan B,

21/04/2008 12:28:04
Publius

I agree with pt 2 and 3. Pt 3 i was thinking along the same lines with the petro currency and think that is one reason for not having a separate scottish pound.

I am not convinced by Pt1.

"The City has flourished because it is a sort of off-shore island or big Switzerland - not in dollar or Euroland. Leaving sterling would loosen this connection and the Edinburgh banks might move some operations to London."

I do not think the city has flourish by being outside the euro or dollar. I think it has florished because of the regulatory regime and tax regimes (New York has had regulatory problems i believe). It has also had a government that is strongly behind the city. And an excellent skills base.

The question in relation to the city is how can scotland gets a bigger share. Can scotland niche itself better to take a bigger share. With technology mobility makes it easier to compete. I think many institutions may like to work within the euro for stability with a country that is english speaking. As for banks moving that really depends on the competitive climate. I think we can see our grip on these institution not particularly strong. Lower corporation taxes etc may help.

Glasgow has actually done quite well recently in redeployments out of the city.
231

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/04/2008 12:28:18
#231 Only caught up with this debate - technically there is a deficit until rebates are reallocated. Whilst it may be morally correct to do so whether they are is another matter.

The black hole that concerns me more is the gap between the Scottish government's actual speding and predicted spending - I still have serious doubts that Swinney will make his 2% efficiency savings target. If he doesn't then next year's budget will make this year's look like a stroll in the park.
232

Publius,

London 21/04/2008 12:30:02
#226 Foulkes

Good afternoon Foulkes.

My main concern about LIT is that in any major tax change there are winners and losers and the losers will always make more noise than the winners. The winners pocket their gains and stay quiet. The losers howl. (This year's income tax chang has more winners than losers but you wouldn't think so from the press and TV.) With LIT everyone who pays income tax and is not a householder will be a loser. And they will howl.

I am concerned too about some of the instrumentalities. Is LIT allowable under the Scotland Act? Can it be introduced in the time frame envisaged by Swinney? There will be a shortfall in revenue - how will this be dealt with? Will LIT need to be raised year by year? What happens if employment falls? Won't the very wealthy find ways of minimising their taxes? etc.

I guess my point is very simple. The Tories came unstuck with the poll tax - but there were winners. Labour is coming unstuck with the ten percent - but there are winners. The SNP is going down the same road.
233

Shaken,

21/04/2008 12:30:11
#246

Benfit from the UK?

Bombing Glasgow Aiport, ID cards, war in Iraq. Highest petrol prices in a developed EU country.

The most frightening programme on TV is Prime Ministers QT. To see these geritric duffers, moan, yell and dribble their way through important debates leaves me cold.

What exactly do we get from the UK Highland Mighty I assume you have a list lets hear it!
234

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 12:30:44
249

Not my expression it came from one of your unionist pals or even you with another of yer accounts.
Hard to tell these days.
235

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 12:31:03
253. Every publication of public accounts.

Of course you nats will say they are ALL rigged and fraudulent despite the small teensy-weensy fact that for a government to wilfully publish false accounts would cause chaos in the financial markets and would result in massive fines from Brussels.

Yep, consecutive UK governments of all parties since 1975, have deliberately filed false public accounts, risking political/economic/currency collapse and almost certain ejection from the EU.....just to spite the Scottish nationalist movement.

Yeah, that will be what's happening.
236

Shaken,

21/04/2008 12:33:06
#260

#246

Benefit from the UK?

Bombing Glasgow Aiport, ID cards, war in Iraq. Highest petrol prices in a developed EU country.

The most frightening programme on TV is Prime Ministers QT. To see these geriatric duffers, moan, yell and dribble their way through important debates leaves me cold.

What exactly do we get from the UK Highland Mighty I assume you have a list lets hear it!
237

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 12:35:33
257

"With LIT everyone who pays income tax and is not a householder will be a loser. And they will howl."

Very generalistic and so untrue.
The voters will have at least 3 years of council tax freezes to remember right up to election day as they see our neighbours down south suffering and complaining about the disparity as their council tax bills go up and up. I wonder if either Labour or the Tories will have the guts to remember to put in the council tax rebanding in their election manifestos??
Because it has to happen sooner or later.


238

Alan B,

21/04/2008 12:35:56
Highland Mighty

With regard to fiscal transfers. My understanding for a Newsnight UK program at the time of last yrs election showed that scotlands deficit is lower than that for the rest of the UK. Also some Oxford investigation into the postion show scotland roughly in balance, with London subidising the rest of the UK (London alos gets the most per head of popualation)

As i pointed out to ur before a treasury question to the tory treasury in the 90s showed that scotland had subsidised the rest of the UK to the tung of £27 billion (at early 90s prices) over the period more than a decade. Like England giving the US £270billion.

If say 20 billion of that was for 10yrs, that would make 2billion per yr. That was roughly worth scotland giving the rest of the UK 10p for every £ earned in income tax. (200million roughly raised from 1p in income tax).

Given that we were not exactly going through a good economic period that was a disaster.
239

Fairfax,

21/04/2008 12:40:04
Alan B (238): "The point is if the south east grows faster than scotland and that leads to higher interest rates then it means slower growth for scotland."

That's correct, but joining the Euro will not protect Scotland from this. The same phenomenon has also occurred in the EuroZone: Italy and Spain have both complained that German-dominated fiscal policy has meant slower growth for them. As Publius has rightly argued above, Sterling, Euro and the Pound Scot would each have advantages and disadvantages.
240

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/04/2008 12:40:36
#262 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,Edinburgh 21/04/2008 12:35:33

"The voters will have at least 3 years of council tax freezes to remember right up to election day"

That is assuming of course that Swinney has the resources to continue financing the freeze. Any failure to meet his efficiency savings target will further limit the resources he has.
241

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 12:42:32
260

And they have been caught doing it.
1970s McCrone report on oil revenues raised.
and the more recent immigration and unemployment figures.

From migration watch.

Migration Watch has calculated, using the Government's own formula, that immigration on the present scale will increase the housing requirement by one million over the next 25 years. Put another way, one in four new houses will be for immigrants.

Where on earth are we going to put all this housing?

The astonishing thing is that all this is happening without the British people being informed, let alone consulted. The Government simply declare that it is all for our economic benefit.

The Government repeatedly claim that immigrants contribute £2.5 billion more to the Exchequer than they cost. This is the keystone of its argument so we looked at it very closely. It turned out to be another 'dodgy dossier'.

The Government plucked an apparently useful fact from the depths of a long report, dropped all the caveats, and repeated it endlessly. Shades of Iraq and the 45-minute Weapons of Mass Destruction claim?

When we came to examine the report itself, we found that it cautioned at least six times that the results were uncertain, that some of the evidence was contradictory and that too much stress should not be placed on a particular figure.

Not only that, but they chose a year in which the public accounts were in surplus so everybody was contributing more than they took out.

But the real howler was that they overlooked the fact that immigration is now adding to our population so there are huge additional costs for the extra infrastructure required which the authors simply ignored. Such is the quality of the 'evidence' on which the Government relies.

And of course lets not forget the dodgy Iraq war dossier and the WMDs with the 45 miniute warning window.


242

Publius,

London 21/04/2008 12:42:34
#255 Alan B

Alan
Perhaps you're right about the banks and Edinburgh, but I wouldn't want to bet my shirt on it.

An interesting tangent. What do you make of Darling's creative accountancy. The 25 billion Treasury Bonds he created for Northern Rock are technically not Treaasury Bonds, but Northern Rock bonds, so they do not count as government debt. The 50 billion he is creating today are one year bonds, so that they do not count as government debt either. Would this be allowable if we were in the Euro?
243

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/04/2008 12:43:20
#264 Good point - switching from the pound to the Euro will mean that instead of London sneezing and us catching a cold it will be Frankfurt sneezing and us catching a pneumonia.
244

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/04/2008 12:43:22
#264 Good point - switching from the pound to the Euro will mean that instead of London sneezing and us catching a cold it will be Frankfurt sneezing and us catching a pneumonia.
245

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/04/2008 12:43:27
#264 Good point - switching from the pound to the Euro will mean that instead of London sneezing and us catching a cold it will be Frankfurt sneezing and us catching pneumonia.
246

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/04/2008 12:43:28
#264 Good point - switching from the pound to the Euro will mean that instead of London sneezing and us catching a cold it will be Frankfurt sneezing and us catching pneumonia.
247

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/04/2008 12:44:25
Don't know what happened there - looks like I've got the poster's equivalent of sneezing!!
248

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 12:45:06
265

Why wouldnt he have?? any more cuts in resourses to Scotland wont be seen by the voters as an SNP fault but a UK government fault and it will be Labour who will pay for any "shortfalls"
249

Arfur,

21/04/2008 12:48:41
#258 Shaken - there is nothing for him to list that would not be shot down in seconds.
250

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 12:50:25
254

Really?? then maybe you can be the first one on here to explain the phenomena that only occurs when our local tax revenue increases exponentially relative to inflation yet our services are still cut.
251

Alan B,

21/04/2008 12:50:28
#264 Fairfax

I have said from the outset that "Sterling, Euro and the Pound Scot would each have advantages and disadvantages". My argument is two fold

1)on balance i believe the euro is best for scotlands economy.
U correctly say "Euro will not protect Scotland from this." (higher interest rates than necessary). However if u look at the history of the euro and history of sterling interest rates u can see that euro interest rates are a better fit for scotland. That does not mean perfect and does not mean that every would be great just that it from an interest perspective it would be more suitable.

i think the euro gives the best balance of stability removing risks of currency fluctuations while deliverying a more appropriate interest rate.

While it has now been removed. Mirus was a political policy by the thatcher government that made the monetary postion in scotland alot worse. Subsiding the cost of credit that then had to be paid for by higher interest rates and to some extend higher currency value that comes from that.

2)the current situation means scottish parliament cannot choose the most appropriate for scotland
252

Alan B,

21/04/2008 12:52:49
#268 The Federalist

Can u try to justify ur remark.
253

malkster,

Scotland 21/04/2008 12:53:06
#272

Why is it being hampered, if the potential for profit is so great and westminster would end up with the money then why would they hamper it?
254

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 12:54:34
279

That will be a first.
255

Alan B,

21/04/2008 12:56:49
Publius

"Would this be allowable if we were in the Euro?"

Very good question. And i have no idea of the answer.

I am sure Brown can make sure that it fits in with his gold rule :).
256

Publius,

London 21/04/2008 12:57:22
#264 Fairfax

You make a good point about different growth rates within the Eurozone, but it is not easy to see why this is so. Since the Euro came in...
Portugal has grown very slowly but Spain very fast...why?
Spain and Ireland have grown very fast ... but have now slowed down to 2 per cent or less ...why?
Germany grew very slowly for a while but has now speeded up ... why? Italy has languished ... why?

The chances are that there are particular reasons in each case and that some have nothing very much to do with the Euro - education, infrastructure, planning regime etc.

We forget that within the dollar zone (USA) some places have very rapid growth, some slow growth and some are actually going backwards. The USA cushions these changes becuase it is very easy to move from one part of the USA to another - same language, same culture, similar education structure etc.

I was not in favour of joining the Euro at first but I am now coming round to the idea. It might impose more discipline on the Browns and Darlings of this world and stop them piling up debts.
257

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 12:57:42
Still waiting for explanations how covering our landscape with wind turbines and our beaches and estuaries with tidal/wave generators so we can produce 0.001% of Europe's electricity is going to make us all rich.

Still waiting for proof that the UK govt has been deliberately filing false economic reports to the markets and the EU for 30 years (conning EU and World Bank auditors in the process), risking political/economic/social collapse, massive EU fines and probable ejection from the EU....just to lie to the SNP. I can see how this is a realistic scenario but can anyone actually prove this has been happening?

275. Sorry, that was me again. Can't help it. I just love this character.
258

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/04/2008 13:01:17
#95 And right on cue, you abandon your ludicrous, contradiction-riddled position and resort to whining and abuse. The Westminster parliament is about as "democratic" as Zimbabwe. You have no answer, so reset to your default position of trolling. No wonder support for the Union is crumbling by the day when its proponents couldn't debate their way out of a wet paper bag that a cat's been chewing.
259

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 13:06:21
286. Excellent, sensible and realistic post.

"Westminster is as democratic as Zimbabwe."

Nope, nothing wild or psychotic about that comment.
260

Fairfax,

21/04/2008 13:07:19
Alan B (278): "However if u look at the history of the euro and history of sterling interest rates u can see that euro interest rates are a better fit for scotland."

I agree, but the Euro has only been an accounting currency since 1999 (physical since 2002), so much can change. There's also the added risk of the Euro's possible demise: you might be surprised by the strength of German irritation with the so-called ClubMed economies, together with German nostalgia for the Mark.
261

Alan B,

21/04/2008 13:09:20
Publius

"Germany grew very slowly for a while but has now speeded up ... why?"

German problems were due mainly to re-unification. Political decision were made rather than economic. ie when the german chancellor overruled the head of the german central bank to implement a 5:1 exchange rate. Germany should probably have delay euro membership until its problems were sorted.

I think many of the economic problems were due to too much polical considerations. Ireland should not have joined until it slowed from its very high unsustainable growth rates.

Spain did well and then voted in the socialist party after the bombing. There right of centre while good economically had alot of other baggage with the right associated to Franco etc.

Italy was going down hill long before the Euro.

Currency alone is not enough. It must be associated to good economic management.

262

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 13:10:10
287. Kindly direct us to your proof that the UK has deliberately hamstrung the development of renewable energy in Scotland when it would obviously benefit the entire country.
263

Alan B,

21/04/2008 13:16:42
Fairfax

"I agree, but the Euro has only been an accounting currency since 1999 (physical since 2002), so much can change"

Yes but interest rates in the ERM countries were lower than the UKs too. Much of this is to do with the housing market and was made far worse by mirus.

I do not think the euro will demise. I think much of the irritation is because government forced the issue without considering the economics. The rules were bent to allow countries to join.

I have always thought the euro should have been launched with Germany, France, Holland, Belgium (although it did not meet the debt criteria) and Luxebourgh. Let it settle and then add countries as they genuinely met economic criteria. ie it was too political a project. The lauch should have been delayed about 5 yrs to allow germany to come to terms with re-unification.

Greece lied about making the criteria. Portugual did not have a strong enough economy. Ireland had far to fast growth.



264

kimba,

21/04/2008 13:16:51
LOL, Salmond is a bit of a comedian,but he really needs to see a doctor,his obsession with westminster is getting out of hand.
265

kimba,

21/04/2008 13:20:02
LOL, Salmond is a bit of a comedian,but he really needs to see a doctor,his obsession with westminster is getting out of hand.
266

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/04/2008 13:20:19
#286 "The Westminster parliament is about as "democratic" as Zimbabwe"

The last time I checked people in this country were not being regularly beaten up or killed because of the way they voted.

I might not particularly agree with most politicians but I respect their right to say it. In this case I don't agree with your comment at all but respect your right to say it - Robert Mugabe and ZANU-PF wouldn't be as generous . . .
267

,

21/04/2008 13:21:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
268

Fairfax,

21/04/2008 13:22:18
Publius (284): "You make a good point about different growth rates within the Eurozone, but it is not easy to see why this is so."

I agree that the marked lack of convergence is surprising, and I really have no good answers to your further questions on particular disparities between growth rate, other than that it's evidence that convergence is much more difficult to achieve than the EuroZone had hoped. Euro bond spreads also reinforce this point.

"It might impose more discipline on the Browns and Darlings of this world and stop them piling up debts."

Sadly I don't think it would, although it might slow them down. After all, the ECB has also been trying to inject liquidity and shore up various banks -- I have no idea where, precisely, all of this appears on the EuroZone books.
269

,

21/04/2008 13:23:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
270

Alan B,

21/04/2008 13:23:32
To add about the euro: I think the rules were bent as re-unification meant Germany did not meet the debt criteria. West Germany had a 2% surplus but together the deficits were more than the 3% rule. This allowed Italy and others to get in that Germany would not have allowed if they had been in a stronger position.
271

,

21/04/2008 13:24:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
272

,

21/04/2008 13:25:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
273

,

21/04/2008 13:26:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
274

,

21/04/2008 13:27:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
275

Geoff,

sa 21/04/2008 13:27:21
18 Canada-"Scotland represented by a neighbour"-not true. You may as well say England or Wales or NI are represented by a neighbour/neighbours.

200 AJ Fife-howrya doin AJ? Congrats on the double ton!

On the subject, I think that like it or not, the Tories are going to win a comfortable overall majority and the chances of the SNP holding the balance of power,whilst not impossible, is unlikely.
276

Fairfax,

21/04/2008 13:27:31
Alan B (290): "German problems were due mainly to re-unification."

Certainly some were, but there are other fundamental problems. The enormous rise in Chinese manufacturing has been very bad for German industry, as has been the cost of their welfare state. In many ways, Germany has problems reminiscent of Britain's in the 1970s and 1980s, and these would have been present without reunification. It has begun to fix some of these problems recently.
277

,

21/04/2008 13:27:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
278

,

21/04/2008 13:28:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
279

,

21/04/2008 13:28:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
280

,

21/04/2008 13:28:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
281

,

21/04/2008 13:29:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
282

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/04/2008 13:30:26
#279 Sorry - missed your comment. The point I was making was not that the Euro would be worse than the pound but that we would be just swapping control of interest rates in London to Frankfurt. Ironically this is the one are where I might actually support the SNP if they were a truly independence party. One could argue that a single currency has never worked in this country never mind at a European level.

Why not have a Scottish Pound (or whatever you may call it)?

Why should the Scottish economy suffer through higher interest rates just to cool overheating in the South-east?
283

,

21/04/2008 13:34:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
284

,

21/04/2008 13:35:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
285

,

21/04/2008 13:35:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
286

,

21/04/2008 13:35:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
287

,

21/04/2008 13:36:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
288

Alan B,

21/04/2008 13:36:27
#305 Fairfax

I agree there were other fundamental problems for Germany. I disagree they were similar to the UK in the 70s and 80s as the UK was completely inefficent and massive debts and poor monetary policy.

West Germany if it had stayed that way, would have been a very rich country, with at the time of the euro launch a 2% surplus.

Yes there were challenges, because it was much more manufacturing orientated. But it is difficult to say how well or otherwise it would have coped with change.

Would it have sunk to the bottom as britain did before thatcher took the country and reformed it. Or would it have been a rich country that would have dealt with it problems in a more evolutionary manor.

Re-unification higher interest rates for a while (even though growth was slow) becuase of the inflationary impact. And a massive fiscal transfer.
289

,

21/04/2008 13:36:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
290

Fairfax,,

21/04/2008 13:37:52
This is fun LOL Lets fake some more onions LOL
291

Logic fading,

21/04/2008 13:39:40
Looks like ont of the SNP voters has had a breakdown when face with an indisptable fact that contradicts his political fantasy position.

I shouldn't laugh at this nutter, but what the hay, it's monday.

LOL
292

Grahamski,,

Falkirk 21/04/2008 13:42:02
320

we unionists fake the gnats so why cant they fake us LOL
293

SeríouslyAmused,

21/04/2008 13:43:06
I remember crying my eyes out when an SNP poster, my gay friend (and other moniker), got faked.

But it's good when it's the Unionists.

HAHAHA
294

,

21/04/2008 13:43:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
295

,

21/04/2008 13:44:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
296

Geoff,

sa 21/04/2008 13:44:35
Its a pitythat we have to put up with the adolescent antics of some who post on this forum. Surely something can be done to prevent the use of similar pen names to disrupt things. If the moderator sees a post that is clearly intended to play the fool(or Moron) then can that email not be barred from future participation or is all this the price of freedom of speech like the graffiti on the bridges of someof Irelands newly EU funded motorways?
What a piece of work is man
How infinite in reason....
297

SeríouslyAmused,

21/04/2008 13:44:37
Some anti-nationalists are humanitarians or humanists who pursue an idealist form of world community and self-identify as "world citizens" towards the ultimate goal of having all of humanity live in peace rather than perpetual conflict. This strain of anti-nationalism does not necessarily include being against the concept of separate countries, nation-states, or national boundaries. It includes at its forefront the idea that one must reject all forms of jingoism.
298

Grahamski,,

21/04/2008 13:45:32
322

LOL we unionists fake the gnats just to shout them down so we are the only voice .Great ploy from us LOL
299

SeríouslyAmused,

21/04/2008 13:46:15
Cost of penis piercing
Rates vary but you should expect to pay from $50 plus the jewelry.

How is a penis piercing done?
Penis piercing is a simple procedure. A needle punctures the skin, then the bar or ring is put through the opening made by it. The piercing can be through the foreskin, the skin on the shaft of the penis, the scrotum and the head of the penis. It must not pierce straight through the shaft of the penis as this could cause serious damage.
300

,

21/04/2008 13:46:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
301

,

21/04/2008 13:47:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
302

Geoff,

sa 21/04/2008 13:47:38
One shouldnt discount the possibility of a Tory-Labour coalition in the event of a hung Westminster Parliament. In reality, the rightward drifting NuLabour and the leftward slipping tories are pretty close to each other somewhere in that wishy washy middle ground!
303

,

21/04/2008 13:48:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
304

,

21/04/2008 13:49:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
305

,

21/04/2008 13:49:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
306

,

21/04/2008 13:50:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
307

,

21/04/2008 13:50:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
308

,

21/04/2008 13:50:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
309

Geoff,

sa 21/04/2008 13:50:39
330 Grahamski for example...
310

,

21/04/2008 13:50:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
311

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 13:51:03
#190 Oh for god's sake how do other countries manage. Have some pride in yourself and stop cringing.
312

,

21/04/2008 13:51:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
313

,

21/04/2008 13:51:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
314

,

21/04/2008 13:52:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
315

,

21/04/2008 13:52:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
316

,

21/04/2008 13:52:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
317

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 13:52:39
#193 Your ignorance is showing GWh is the correct unit. Another foot in mouth moment for you Grahamster?
318

,

21/04/2008 13:52:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
319

,

21/04/2008 13:53:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
320

,

21/04/2008 13:53:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
321

SeríouslyAmused,

21/04/2008 13:57:41
HAHAHAHA This is so funny.

Someone SNP pillock is pretending to be another poster who he disagrees with and is writing stuff about dogging.

HAHAHA

Keep up the good work every time you write dogging we win another vote for independence.
322

SeríouslyAmused,

21/04/2008 13:59:29
You just do not get this kind of witty banter from the other political parties!

Only an SNP pillock could come up with dogging and LOL together, that is a classic.

HAHAHAHAHA
323

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 14:01:48
#230 Well £450m is going to come from Westminster as part of the block grant from what is currently know as the Council Tax Rebate.

Next question.
324

,

21/04/2008 14:01:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
325

,

21/04/2008 14:04:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
326

,

21/04/2008 14:05:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
327

,

21/04/2008 14:07:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
328

,

21/04/2008 14:08:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
329

,

21/04/2008 14:10:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
330

Iain fae Elgin,

21/04/2008 14:13:22
"#33,34,40

Thanks also for making my point at #20"

Not really, I'm a Nationalist. Just worried for the future. Especially if people like you who jump to conclusions and reply with invective are to have anything to do with it.
331

,

21/04/2008 14:14:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
332

,

21/04/2008 14:17:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
333

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 14:17:59
#251 Read this Herald article "Scotching the Myth":

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/other/display.var.1804147.0.0.php

Then wind your neck in!
334

,

21/04/2008 14:19:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
335

,

21/04/2008 14:19:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
336

,

21/04/2008 14:20:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
337

,

21/04/2008 14:20:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
338

,

21/04/2008 14:21:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
339

,

21/04/2008 14:21:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
340

,

21/04/2008 14:21:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
341

,

21/04/2008 14:22:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
342

,

21/04/2008 14:22:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
343

,

21/04/2008 14:22:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
344

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 14:28:37
#293 kimba. Your obsession with Alex Salmond is getting out of hand! Delusional some would say!

ps: are you really as dim as you sound?
345

kimba,

21/04/2008 14:37:50
374. Pity your only redress is to insult,salmond is a non entity as far as the westminster government is concerned,if he thinks he has problems now wait until David Cameron takes over!
346

,

21/04/2008 14:47:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
347

Miss H,

21/04/2008 14:49:51
359
Transmission of renewable energy
18/04/2008

The development of clean, renewable energy in Scotland is being put at risk by the 'intolerable' electricity transmission charging regime, First Minister Alex Salmond has said following a meeting with representatives from the National Grid.

Mr Salmond pushed the 'unanswerable case' for a charging system which will support, rather than work against, the development of renewable and clean energy.

The FM said:

"Scotland is united against the National Grid's Electricity Transmission Charging Regime which works against the development of clean, renewable energy in Scotland.

"Last week, the Government, Scottish Power, Scottish and Southern Energy and the Scottish Renewables Forum presented our unanswerable case to OFGEM. It was a useful and constructive meeting with OFGEM responding positively to our detailed and robust case for change.

"Earlier today the National Grid told us that they accepted the whole system was due for fundamental review.

"There is no justification for charging a power station in Longannet £33 million when it would pay - not charge - an equivalent power station in London £13 million. Similarly, Peterhead would be charged £30 million while a power station in Seabank, in the southwest of England, would be paid £3.05 million.

"Yesterday I met with council leaders from the Highlands and Islands - the areas most discriminated against under this intolerable regime. They told me that charges of up to £80 per kilo watt have been quoted to developers in Orkney. Such extremes of charging can have no justification and similar examples were put to me from Shetlands and the Western Isles.

"These are just some of the points we pushed in our meeting with the National Grid today. Scotland is the most energy rich nation in Europe - with an unrivalled array of potentially cheap, renewable and low-carbon energy sources. We have the ability and skills to develop clean coal and carbon capture &
348

Miss H,

21/04/2008 14:50:23
These are just some of the points we pushed in our meeting with the National Grid today. Scotland is the most energy rich nation in Europe - with an unrivalled array of potentially cheap, renewable and low-carbon energy sources. We have the ability and skills to develop clean coal and carbon capture & storage technologies. UK and Europe need Scotland to help meet renewable and carbon reduction targets. Yet the existing transmission charging regime is nonsensical and counter-productive, working against the development of these resources.

"The National Grid's acknowledgement of the need for a review is significant progress and builds on our recent positive discussions with OFGEM. Both the National Grid and OFGEM have now listened and responded positively to our unanswerable case for change. We will continue pushing our case for Scotland until we have removed this unnecessary barrier to clean, renewable energy."
349

,

21/04/2008 14:50:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
350

Duncan in Edinburgh /,

21/04/2008 14:51:29
Why don't they just bar posting from the poster's IP address - it would at least stop the one arsehole who is screwing up this thread.
351

,

21/04/2008 14:54:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
352

,

21/04/2008 14:55:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
353

,

21/04/2008 14:57:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
354

,

21/04/2008 14:58:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
355

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 14:59:58
I can't believe that Alex samond has made such a crass comment. So he wants 20 SNP MPs to dictate to the other 620 or so even though they would not even form the majority of Scottish MPs. Whatever happened to democracy? This sort of approach is surely nothing short of arrogant, bombastic nationalism in one of its most odious incarnations.
356

,

21/04/2008 15:02:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
357

kimba,

21/04/2008 15:03:21
379. Good for the female condom,your point would be..........
358

,

21/04/2008 15:04:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
359

,

21/04/2008 15:05:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
360

,

21/04/2008 15:06:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
361

,

21/04/2008 15:08:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
362

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/04/2008 15:09:48
#386 Ugly George

I see nothing undemocratic about what Salmond is proposing. In a hung parliament, a small party regularly holds the balance of power. Take Holyrood for example: the Greens and Margo have gained concessions from the SNP Government in exchange for their support. Nothing at all wrong with it.
363

,

21/04/2008 15:11:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
364

,

21/04/2008 15:11:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
365

Shaken,

21/04/2008 15:13:05
#386

Salmond has framed a frightening picture that will encourage English independence. Whether he acheives the 20 seats is immaterial if it induces a national debate in England along the lines of 'we don't want Jocks having a say on our country'

Quite clever to make the South ask the same questions that we in the North are considering too..
366

,

21/04/2008 15:14:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
367

,

21/04/2008 15:14:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
368

westview,

Judging by what they do. 21/04/2008 15:19:22
Results so far----SNP doing great for the country-----Labour doing dreadfully bad . If in doubt go with the winning team, the SNP.
369

,

21/04/2008 15:21:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
370

Conan the Librarian™,

21/04/2008 15:22:12
386
396
We had many years of being ruled by a government which didn't have a mandate in Scotland.

Annoying isn't it?
371

,

21/04/2008 15:27:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
372

Louis Catorze,

21/04/2008 15:32:30
Quite a few 15 year olds on here today taking time out from looking up 'bum' and other naughty words in the dictionary.

That's one of the joys of free speech and an open public forum I suppose.
373

,

21/04/2008 15:38:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
374

,

21/04/2008 15:48:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
375

,

21/04/2008 15:49:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
376

Angus Ogg,

21/04/2008 15:49:59
#380,

Duncan, can they do that? I mean knock the obscenety posters, and ID thieves/fakers on the head from their IP addresses?

I had an exact copy fake poster under my name at #1, #152, #212, and #235.

Fortunately the I.T. Department/Site Administrator at The Scotsman is on the ball today. Though it must bore them a great deal having to moderate such banal garbage.

Just shows the truth in the AOL advert that posed the question "Is The Internet A Good Thing" with all the abusers and anonymous idiots with sex problems etc. The internet is certainly a double edged sword. When it's good it's great, but when its bad, it is the pits.
377

European Scot,

21/04/2008 15:53:20
Suffering the more extreme elements on the Unionists side is one thing, but having some little nerd deliberately messing up a site like this is quite enough.
What sort of individual finds this kind of disruption amusing.
Or is someone at GCHQ having a bad day ?
378

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/04/2008 15:54:29
396
I see your point.So the SNP tactic is to make themselves as awkward and obnoxious as possible so that the rest of the UK gets fed up with Scotland and tells them to get lost. Meanwhile The SNP will try to get as much as they can from the separation. Alex Salmond has obviously been getting lessons from Heather Mills
379

,

21/04/2008 15:55:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
380

Angus Ogg,

21/04/2008 16:01:47
#410

Well Spook, you won your bottle of whisky back, and with some style.

Had me going.

Though I couldn't understand why it was such a POLITE faker.

As for perfection, I couldn't tell the difference.
381

European Scot,

21/04/2008 16:05:35
410 Spook in Leith

I replied to ' your post' at 215, or did I ?
382

kimba,

21/04/2008 16:05:48
409. Well they will not get their independence any other way!
383

Masterpiece,

21/04/2008 16:08:00
Good for you Alex.

Looking forward to 40 seats and not just 20.

Buaidh gu Bas.
384

European Scot,

21/04/2008 16:10:27
413 Kimba

Don't you believe in Democracy then ?
Because that's how it will be done.
385

,

21/04/2008 16:11:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
386

kimba,

21/04/2008 16:18:03
415.It will be done through pi--ing off the English,and that my european friend is what we in England call a cop-out!
387

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 16:33:08
417. Unfortunately, Salmond's antics barely make it into English media so that's a wasted effort. Even Swinney ranting on about the prison money barely registers a 'tut' among the southerners.

He should just concentrate on promising peace and prosperity to everyone and hope no-one asks any questions (he's succeeded with the nats on this board so he's up and running).

Personally, I am happy with my lot and not falling for the anti-UK, anti-English guff that He is dishing out on a daily basis.
388

European Scot,

21/04/2008 16:35:57
417 Kimba

".It will be done through pi--ing off the English,and that my european friend is what we in England call a cop-out! "

Well having recently seen the English Democrats party political efforts for London Mayor, it would seem that some are pretty well in that state already.
Aside from appealing to Sun readers however, England has got a lot further to go to catch up with the ever growing numbers of supporters for Independence in Scotland.
These come from a much wider group of people, and tend to include a higher proportion from the better educated sections of Scottish society.
389

kimba,

21/04/2008 16:44:57
419.Not really,65% of English polled said they would vote for a independent England given the chance,as opposed to 31% of scots voting for scottish independence.
390

Highland Mighty,

21/04/2008 16:51:15
420. Really? I thought that was just that silly poll where the majority of Scots wanted independence.

I do find it strange that no-one is challenging Salmond on his many wild claims of a 'tartan nirvana' come independence. Maybe they are waiting for 2010 before they start discrediting Him.
391

European Scot,

21/04/2008 16:59:59
420 Kimba

The last poll in Scotland indicated 41% for, as opposed to 40% against, close, but showing a continuing trend which is ever increasing.
Certainly an encouraging poll in England, but it doesn't seem to be backed up with a well organised professional party, that is led by a strong personality.
Our own little Alex is supported by 75% of the people of Scotland.
If you can get someone to attract that kind of support in England, you're home and dry.
392

Publius,

London 21/04/2008 17:05:55
Calling Foulkes. Calling Foulkes. Calling Foulkes.

Hi, if you're still here, there's an excellent article on 'fiscal drag' in today's Times. Remember we were discussing this a couple of days ago. The url is
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article3784640.ece

Publius
393

Publius,

London 21/04/2008 17:14:11
#420; #422

Any idea that the English want England to be independent of Scotland is wishful thinking. There is no English equivalent of the SNP and there never will be.

Also it is quite likely that the SNP will get 20 or so MPs in the next Westminster Parliament, but very unlikely that they will have much influence.
394

pwd,

Hawick 21/04/2008 17:23:13
* 57
No, but use your brains.