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New schools curriculum is branded 'not good enough'

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Published Date: 10 July 2009
PRESSURE was last night growing on the Scottish Government after a leading education figure joined mounting criticism of the new curriculum due in schools next year.
Critics warned education secretary Fiona Hyslop that the Curriculum for Excellence was in "disarray" and demanded action before more children ended up struggling to read and write.

Keir Bloomer, a member of the team that created the Curriculum for
Excellence, described it as "not good enough". The former council leader and director of education was particularly critical of the literacy element, calling it "complete nonsense".

Although he stressed he was still supportive of the system as "the only game in town", he said it would have too little impact on the way teachers worked.

The document described literacy as "the set of skills which allows an individual to engage fully in society and in learning, through the different forms of language, and the range of texts, which society values and finds useful". He said: "No it's not. It's about how to read and write. This sort of crap does not take us any further forward."

Teachers have previously warned they will ballot on industrial action unless the government gives "explicit guidance" and pumps more cash into the new curriculum.

Members of the Scottish Secondary Teachers' Association (SSTA), at their annual conference in Peebles in May, also demanded that the introduction of the Curriculum for Excellence be delayed until books and coursework are created.

The new system has already been delayed by a year, until 2010, after fears from the profession that there was not enough time to implement it properly.

Scotland's biggest teaching union, the EIS, also warned, at its annual conference last month, that more investment, both financial and of time, was needed.

Conservative schools spokeswoman Liz Smith backed the former teacher's remarks.

She said: "Keir Bloomer is only echoing what every parent and teacher in Scotland already knows, namely that Alex Salmond's SNP has failed to deliver when it comes to improving basic standards in our schools.

"We have been warning for some time that teachers are not being given clear direction as to how to carry out the core aims of the curriculum. The entire structure behind implementing the curriculum is in disarray."

She demanded more rigorous testing of the "three Rs" and warned that the Scottish Government must act "before it is too late".

Some headteachers at Scotland's prestigious independent schools have warned that they will not introduce the Curriculum for Excellence until it is ready.

Critics have claimed it is too "woolly" and vague and said parents will feel their children are being used as guinea pigs.

However, state school heads will have little choice in whether to adopt the system or not.

Rhona Brankin, Labour education spokeswoman, described the literacy section of the curriculum as "complete gobbledegook".

Labour is so concerned about the inability of school-leavers to read and write sufficiently well that it has set up its own literacy commission to investigate the issue.

Ms Brankin said: "It is a scandal that a fifth of pupils leave school without being able to read properly. This government has underfunded the curriculum changes and a lack of leadership from the education minister is clearly denting confidence in the reforms."

Teachers have also balked at plans to introduce literacy and numeracy tests for all pupils to take in third or fourth year, before they leave secondary school.

They say that is too late to help correct any problems youngsters have with such key skills.

A spokesman for the Scottish Government described the new curriculum as the "biggest reform of our education system in a generation", and said Scotland already performed well on the world education stage.

He said the new system would give teachers the opportunity to reflect modern society in the classroom.

"Education will be provided suited to the needs of individual pupils in a modern world, with teachers provided with the freedom to develop quality teaching and learning approaches within their own schools," he added.

"Keir Bloomer is an important educational thinker, and we will always listen with interest to his views," he said. "However, the new curriculum has been developed in partnership with teachers who are currently working in the classroom and who will be responsible for delivering these reforms for the benefit of Scotland's children."

Guidance on literacy in the new curriculum suggests teachers use modern ways of communicating, such as text messaging, e-mails and social networking websites to help children become literate in the 21st century.

Read Keir Bloomer's analysis here

JOINED UP THINKING

CURRICULUM for Excellence is the new school curriculum brought in to replace the previous system know as the 5-14 Guidance.

Its aims are summarised in the "four capacities" it hopes pupils will achieve: successful learners, confident individuals, responsible citizens and effective contributors.

It covers a wider range of ages, from 3-18, in a bid to co-ordinate learning better from nursery right through to final exams.

The new system is intended to be a more joined-up system with teachers working together across subjects.

For example it could mean if pupils are studying Ancient Egypt in history, they could use the pyramids to study angles in maths.





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  • Last Updated: 10 July 2009 12:21 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Teaching
 
1

Gorach,

Oban 10/07/2009 00:08:22
MORE SCIENCE
MORE SCOTTISH HISTORY
MORE GAELIC

2

GW,

Peterhead 10/07/2009 00:11:22
The original document "A Curriculum for Excellence" was published in November 2004, and the SNP picked up on the development when they came to power in 2007. Difficult, therefore, for Labour or Liberal Democrats to attack the proposals.

If the reforms do run into problems in the future due to spending cuts, Labour will also have difficulty attacking that as the cuts will be down to the Labour government in London!
3

Fifi la Bonbon,

10/07/2009 00:40:56
GW, you have made a masterful political analysis. The Nationalist Party stands a good chance of escaping blame for this disaster. A true success!

Pity about our illiterate children, right, but the important thing is that Mister Salmond will be able to avoid any blame.
4

Fifi la Bonbon,

10/07/2009 00:55:04
Personally speaking, I think they should bring Latin and Greek to all the secondaty schools.

amo amas amat amamus amatis amant.

sum es est sumus estis sunt.

puella puella puellam puellae puellae puella
puellae puellae puellas puellarum puellis puellis.

Ecce Romani de familia Romana est. Tu occurris patri nomine Cornelio, Senatori Romano, matri nomine Aureliae, filio nomine Marco, filiae nomine Corneliae et puero nomine Sexto, qui est non filius Corneli, sed amicus Marci. In parte prima libri, habitant in villa rustica sed sunt Romani.
5

Alan B,

10/07/2009 01:06:14
After all that waffle the scotsman journalist could not convey what the critisms of the new curriculum actually are.

We have the unions saying they wanted more time so it was delayed by a year. Now they seem to say they want more time. That just seems like taking the pee.

Why also should teachers even think of striking. They are paid by us to teach and we choose the government who will decide on educational policy.

The whole thing smells of unions playing silly games.

At the end of the day if we take literacy as mentioned in the article. What actually is going to change in the way primary school literacy is taught. Anything?

The journalist would have been better going to journalist school as the article is just drivel and so uninformative.
6

Alan B,

10/07/2009 01:09:19
"Keir Bloomer, a member of the team that created the Curriculum for Excellence, described it as "not good enough"

Although he stressed he was still supportive of the system as "the only game in town", he said it would have too little impact on the way teachers worked."

Surely that is the problem. Why on earth should fundamentally change the way teachers work. It is ridiculous when we get someone so removed from teaching telling professional teachers how to teach.

Let teachers get on with their jobs. It is not rocket science.
7

redcliffe62,

10/07/2009 04:30:02
when i was at school we had good teachers and bad teachers. the good ones tended to be in the subjects i did better at, although not exclusively.
what did anooy me was the very poor teachers thought they had a job for life and could not be removed.
if teachers were given a critical analysis by students and tested accordingly, and new teachers came in when poor teachers were removed i would see that as a benefit, although the EIS would no doubt disagree.
therefore, simply saying thetecahers union disagrees does not per se make the chnages a bad idea. it merely confirms that some people do not wnat change, and are happy to accept the status quo. which parents and students alike should not accept.
the students who refuse to study, muck about and leave school after 11 years semi literate have themselves to blame. they need to be taken out of the mainstream as they slow up the learning skills of those who genuinely wnat to improve themselves.
we should accept that some kids want to make school life hard for other students by their disobedient behaviour instead of pandering to their needs.
i remember we had "gumby" classes for the kids who surprised the teachers if they even turned up to do basic arithmetic and attempted to do joined up writing.
so give them a second chance, even a third chance via remedial classes, but if they continue to muck about then spend the money on those who want to do better.
i used to part time (and voluntarily) teach retarded children, so i can tell when children do not have the capacity to learn, whilst others merely want to distrupt at a time when their hormones are going rampant. i have great sympathy in one area, less in the other.
not politically correct, but there you go.
and there were not that many remedial kids in schools in singapore, china, japan and south korea, where learning and trying to be better through hard work and education were virtues extolled from the family to get on in life, so kids had to knuckle down witho
8

,

10/07/2009 05:35:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

Soosider,

Glasgow 10/07/2009 06:19:08
In its own way this article epitomises what has been wrong with education in Scotland for decades. It is full of politicians attempting to make short term political advantage, sound bite journalism. Reading the actual article by Keir Bloomer shows he is thoughtful and positive, with much constructive critisism. It is worth a read http://tinyurl.com/nwly9r.
Surely what we can agree is that for any child after a minimum of 11 years education to be unable to read, write or count is unacceptable. As Keir Bloomer says in his article " ...Many have produced "visions" or mission statements committing them to far-reaching change but none has yet made the breakthrough. Curriculum for Excellence is Scotland's educational vision. After nearly five years, how far have we progressed in putting it into practice?"
10

Herry Oaksters,

10/07/2009 06:28:21
1.
Made a fool of yourself with that silly but typical snide remark.
Read 3 to enlighten your ignorant brain.
11

donald,

glasgow 10/07/2009 06:33:14
Bloomers was a full time EIS rep, who regularly sold his members out and is/was a member of the Lib Dummies and still anti SNP.

His comments are about as impartial and useful as the Hootsmon or the EBC.
12

buzzer,

Aberdeen 10/07/2009 08:11:58
10# Soosider, the best post I have read in ages.

I get very angry at politicians paarticularly the inept Rhona Brankin playing petty politics for her own self gain with my young daughter's future.
I dont mind the government being criticised but this name calling from Labour really does not add to the debate. If we have to overhaul our education system then of course there will be some who disagree at the rate of change etc but sooner or later we must start to sort out the failures of the last decades.
13

JayJay,

Right here 10/07/2009 08:13:41
Rhona Brankin could perhaps have a chat with some of her colleagues - who after all have been running the bulk of the country at a local level for several generations - rather than launching yet another "commission". Especially when most of us have a pretty good idea why the education system is heading in a backwards direction at a rate of knots.
In fact, we could probably do with a whole lot less of politicians faffing around with education every three years, then earnestly wondering why the whole system is a mess.
Here's a few pointers for them. Lack of discipline in schools; ridiculous pre-occupation with league tables; poor leadership in individual schools; pressure on head teachers NOT to exclude bad apples; mad social theorising passing for educational policy; a crazed belief in a one-size fits all approach. Oh the list is endless, but perhaps politicians could just round up a group of front line staff and ask them what they should do. I feel pretty sure Rhona's head would explode if she had to listen to the typical day of a teacher in a poorly performing school.
14

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 10/07/2009 08:14:20
'The document described literacy as "the set of skills which allows an individual to engage fully in society and in learning, through the different forms of language, and the range of texts, which society values and finds useful".'

This is more like a corporate mission statement which is where half this drivel comes from - management-speak. From a child's perspective, it's being taught how to read and write - all the other guff comes later when they have more intellectual capacity to understand. If I had £10 for every piece of nonsense that comes out of the left-wing socialist trendy educationalists to plague ordinary teachers I would be a very rich man.

Look at the facts - around 25-30% of children arriving at secondary school are not up to scratch on literacy and numeracy. That is wholly unacceptable and no doubt there will be nother heap of waffle to justify it and more trendy courses for head teachers.

Just cut the rubbish and teach the kids for goodness' sakes! This may involve some a) repetition b) hard work c) exclusion of numpties or filtering out. Not rocket science indeed.
15

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 10/07/2009 08:29:35
Keir Bloomer said "NO COUNTRY in the world has a school curriculum genuinely fit for purpose in the 21st century."
16

Scotland Needs YOU,

Glasgow 10/07/2009 08:43:10
There are 10,800 (1 year ago the number was 8,853) schoolchildren in Glasgow who have English as a second language, a seventh of the total school population. There are 102 different languages spoken at home by the offspring of immigrants. The most common after English, are Punjabi, Urdu and Arabic, Chinese Mandarin, Polish, Cantonese, Swahili, Kurdish and Thai, French, German, Spanish and Italian. Into this mix have come unprecedented numbers of asylum seeker and refugee families, many of whose children arrive at school unable to speak, read, or write English. At the start of the school term last summer, 25 children - none of whom spoke English - turned up at a Govanhill, Glasgow primary. There can be 37 children in one week arriving in schools across the city. We not only have pupils who don’t have English but don't have any education, in particular girls from Afghanistan who have not been allowed access to education.

How can any teacher even begin to control or teach children who can’t even communicate in English. Get these non-speaking, non-writing, non-reading of English out of mainstream education, reduce the class sizes, and give our teachers a chance to teach.

Don’t criticize our schoolteachers. Reprimand the likes of Glasgow’s city councillors who proudly informed us that they had placed more than 100 Roma children who could not speak, read or write English into our schools.
17

Audrey Halliday,

10/07/2009 09:03:16
Does Scotland have Ministers, MSP’s and a civil service that are up to the job?

In the past couple of days we read that “new” Curriculum for Excellence is in disarray. Additionally we have Sir John Elvidge appointing two new directors whose job will be to run the departments in charge of climate change and education, yet I read that neither of them that have experience in either field and that the landscape destroying Beauly to Denny mega pylon power line should be approved.

Is there a pattern of profligacy and an absurd amount of ill thought out and hugely over budget plans in the past few years? That’s in addition to the proposed blot on the landscape steel horrorliths that will devalue the beauty of our countryside, a landscape that has been globally touted as one of our top assets during this Homecoming year.

I won’t even mention the cost of Parliament building.

I remember being taught in school that overspending and underperforming were silly things to do.
18

frank mcbride,

lusitania 10/07/2009 09:14:05
#17, Scotland needs................

It certainly doesn't need the small-minded, bigotted attitude exhibited in your comment.
19

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 10/07/2009 09:15:06
This is part of the legacy inheritied from the last Executive.

It takes time to undo the harm already done.
20

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 10/07/2009 09:17:07
19 Framk

You are totally out of order with your comment. #17 was stating facts. Unless we understand the challenge facing us we can never cater for the needs of the children, Roma or otherwise!
21

albanman,

Edinburgh 10/07/2009 09:17:21
No.15: You are quite right in saying that the blurb sounds like some corporate mission statement, but it is the kind of education-speak that we teachers have to put up with all the time. Those who compose such documents don't believe in using 20 words when they can use 40 or more. One has to seriously wonder when they were last in a regular classroom.

Our school, like many others, has had several meetings regarding the CfE and our constant complaint is that so many things are just vague, education-speak. Other things we found to be ridiculous such as the testing for numercacy and literacy just before pupils can leave school; problems in these areas need to be caught well before this stage. One of the good things which the CfE encourages is cross-curricular cooperation, but good schools do that already.
22

Queen D,

10/07/2009 09:23:30
For shame Mr McBride!
There is a demented teacher telling you how it is and you come out with a sniffy piece of drivel.
There are major difficulties in our schools caused by the policy of inclusion and the influx of non English speaking kids.
The good part of that is the children learn quickly but it still takes time and lots of extra staff to accomplish the task.
Ultimately they will add a great deal to Scotland but initially there are problems.Yes , the problems can be overcome but money and time are heavily involved.
23

albanman,

Edinburgh 10/07/2009 09:25:24
No. 19 Frank: I'm not sure how the comment from No.17 is bigotted and small minded. I think you have totally missed the point.

Why place children who don't speak adequate English into classes without first providing them with the ability to understand what is being taught? Such a practice, as appears to be happening in Glasgow, is unfair to all concerned. Our school has a Polish lad whose parents don't speak English; he receives 1 hour of English instruction per week - totally insufficient, but it's all down to a lack of financial resources. The reality is we need many more ESL teachers.
24

Scotland Needs YOU,

Glasgow 10/07/2009 09:25:39
19 .... frank mcbride,lusitania

And Scotland’s children certainly don’t need the small-minded, bigoted, uncaring, attitude expressed in your empty comment.

21.... connaughtboy,stonehaven

Thanks, ideas and action are needed. The teachers and councillors can’t speak out about the problem - frank and his ilk are just waiting to play their stupid, played out wee racist card.
25

Bletherinskyte,

at the back of the class 10/07/2009 09:33:45
#6 Where does the article mention striking?

Despite being largely in favour of CfE, teachers are rightly concerned about the implementation and the lack of guidance.

"Let teachers get on with their jobs. It is not rocket science."

Yes it is! As well as biology, maths, language, French, German, PE.............................

If you are really interested in CfE - go and have a look at it

http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/curriculumforexcellence/index.asp

26

TheDisplacedGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 10/07/2009 09:37:34
From the 'story' -
"Labour is so concerned about the inability of school-leavers to read and write sufficiently well that it has set up its own literacy commission to investigate the issue."

Ms Brankin said: "It is a scandal that a fifth of pupils leave school without being able to read properly. "

Well, 50 years of Labour control of education in Scotland has brought us to this. THey now attempt to blame the SNP who have been in power for 2 years... How can they be to blame for the failing 16 year olds who have been edyookaited the labour way?

#3, GW. Good facts, good post.
27

Bletherinskyte,

10/07/2009 10:20:32
#27
How true.

I wonder why they didn't set up their commission earlier? When they were in power might have been a good time.
28

Iain Mac,

10/07/2009 10:30:57
27 and 28 - This curriculum was a LABOUR IDEA! It was initiated under the Labour/LibDem administration. Rhona Brankin is a liar and hypocrite.

As to Keir Bloomer - he was a member of the group that designed this. I wonder what his linguistic qualifications are? Why does he say nothing about the oracy aspect of the CfE? Oracy as well as literacy is one thing many other countries do well.

Typical negative doom and gloom from the Hootsmon. But, i'm really angry at Labour trying to score points from something they created.
29

,

10/07/2009 10:46:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
30

frank mcbride,

lusitania 10/07/2009 10:50:58
#21, Connaughtboy.

The people, on this thread, who are out of order are those who fail to acknowledge the fact that it is the whole education system that is broken; immigrant children are an easy target, but they are not the cause.

The cause of the horrendous problems facing teachers lies in the past "educational reforms" promoted by, would you believe, yes! the very same Mr. Blommer who is now complaining.

Teachers are their own worst enemy as they have accepted changes, in practice, which they knew were wrong and would be ultimately damaging. Functional illiteracy is not, simply, the province of immigrants but of the indigenous population.

Before blaming this on immigration, perhaps we should consider why a goodly number of our teachers have literacy and/or numeracy problems.
31

Bletherinskyte,

On the heidie's carpet 10/07/2009 10:54:46
#29

"Rhona Brankin is a liar and hypocrite."

Maybe Rhona Brankin was off school on the day they covered hypocrisy. Or does she counts herself in the (alledged) 20% who leave school unable to read properly?

No, on second thoughts I think you might be right.
32

frank mcbride,

lusitania 10/07/2009 10:57:14
#25, Scotland needs...............

I don't need to as you do it more that adequately, yourself.
33

McNic,

a sunny wee ayrshire village 10/07/2009 10:57:42
With 1 kid in High School and 2 in Primary I have heard nothing but good reports from any teachers we have spoken to about the Curriculum For Excellence, if anything there all seem to be fully behind it!
34

Scotland Needs YOU,

Glasgow 10/07/2009 11:31:55
33 frank mcbride,lusitania

Thank you .... you bow to my superior intellect.
35

TheUnionisBritish,

10/07/2009 11:43:27
this relevant article caught my eye

http://tinyurl.com/lgle9w


36

Lys Alf,

Scotland 10/07/2009 12:09:15
The new curriculum is the Emperor's New Clothes!
37

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/07/2009 12:32:35
If it wasn't for the immigrant children in Glasgow (many of them children of asylum seekers) even more schools would be closing than are at the moment due to falling school rolls.

I doubt that would be particularly popular with the teachers, and indeed parents of pupils, in the schools affected.

Glasgow has only been able to absorb immigrants because its own population has been in decline, particularly the young.

Them's the facts.
38

radge dug,

10/07/2009 12:47:11
#17 - Scotland needs...

Check the stats. The kids in Scotland with the best attainment are the Asian and Chinese kids along with our homegrown Gaelic medium kids. Why? Because they all speak 2 or more languages.

Bilingual kids are streets ahead of their monolingual peers. As to teachers, most welcome diversity. Kids can easily absorb 3 or 4 languages in childhood, given the exposure. Doubt it? Check out Professor Sorace's research at Edin Uni. Or, even better, go to a Gaelic medium school and check the kids - most who come to P1 with no Gaelic speaking it fluently after a year or two, and functionally fluent after only a few months.

Bigots don't usually like checking the evidence though.
39

radge dug,

10/07/2009 12:49:01
Btw... if Keir Bloomer helped design a curriculum which he says if flawed then will he pay back his wages? Sounds like shoddy work to me. I think this guy's got a bee in his bonnet.
40

radge dug,

10/07/2009 12:49:54
And, why are the Scotsman not questioning Bloomer's integrity on this? Where has proper journalism gone? Is it easier just to print the press release?
41

Blue Tooner,

10/07/2009 12:50:00
So the CoE hopes to produce "successful learners, confident individuals, responsible citizens and effective contributors."

Isn't that what education has always aimed to do? So what's new? How many working hours and how much money has been spent on all this? Another total waste of time and public money. Over crowding is the big problem. New schools and more teachers, that's where the cash should be spent.
42

The Saltire,

10/07/2009 12:50:09
This article looks like it wants to attack the SNP but hasnt worked out quite how. Its looks like the author was trying to find an angle while writing it and finished it before he found one.
This piece of literary tripe is laughable its neither one thing nor another. It has no point nor focus.
The editor must have given one of the cleaners a go at making up some anti SNP rhetoric between dusting the keyboard and washing the mouse.
43

Miss H,

10/07/2009 13:09:17
I think we can all agree that there is far too much jargony nonsense in education and not enough attention to the basics.

But who is responsible for that? Who comes up with all the visions and the mission statements? Education professionals - including teachers. Not politicians. Politicians have steered education policy in the direction the educational professionals have wanted it to go in. In many ways they have been too hands-off.
At the end of the day education is a public service, like the health service or any other service delivered by local authorities. A lot of public money goes into it but the outcomes are not really good enough.

44

Miss H,

10/07/2009 13:21:45
I agree that Glasgow City Council aren't spending nearly enough on schools. But the idea that having bilingual learners is a Bad Thing is incredibly short sighted. Potentially this gives Glasgow a huge comparative advantage over other locations. English may be the lingua franca of the world but there is no doubt that it helps to have people who speak other languages when trying to secure contracts in other countries. Given the inadequacy of langauge teaching among native English speakers we should be putting a lot more resources into teaching bilingual busines skills. It could help to turn the whole Glasgow economy around.
45

Gruntfuttock,

10/07/2009 13:24:37
A spokesman for the Scottish Government.........and said Scotland already performed well on the world education stage.

This was true 30 years ago but is not true now. This type of glib complacency gets as nowhere except perhaps eventual third world status in education. Wake up Scotland your future is being flushed down the pan by a group of narrow-minded zealots who wish to curb serious intellectual pursuit. Perhaps even the Taliban would preferable to this lot.
46

response,

Syd 10/07/2009 13:26:59
suffer the children God's gift to us then we put them through a wringer
47

The Saltire,

10/07/2009 13:38:00
46

Which future the one inside or outside of the union? if as you say our education has been deteriorating for the last 30 years then it seems it aint safe within the union to me. That of course is about the same period we have been under consecutive Tory policy and dogma.
Conservatism means education for those who can afford it.
Conservatism means good health for those who can afford it.
Conservatism means good privatised utilities for those who can afford them.
Conservatism means good transportation for those who can afford to travel on them.
Conservatism means good housing for those who can afford the price to pay for their homes.
Conservatism means tough on crime and criminals unless you have the power influence and money to live above the law.
Conservatism means going to war in order to support right wing dogma internationally.
Ach well you get the idea.
We go independent or we remain trapped under Conservative dogma perpetually and we can kiss any idea of a reasonable education system for all ta ta.
48

Selgovae,

10/07/2009 14:50:14
#9

You forgot to mention that many Japanese kids (50% ?) also attend private after-school classes (juku), so presumably the school system isn't meeting all needs. Also, many Japanese employers complain that "kids today" don't have the right attitude, lack manners, can't write properly, think only of themselves, etc. Maybe it's not so different.
49

Jimmy Le Pie,

10/07/2009 14:59:39
#36 Theunionisfinished,

Excellent link!
50

Jimmy Le Pie,

10/07/2009 16:41:09
#51

You speaking from experience, oh wise one???
51

Scotland Needs YOU,

Glasgow 10/07/2009 17:19:31
38 Observer, Glasgow

‘‘If it wasn't for the immigrant children in Glasgow (many of them children of asylum seekers)’’ our children could and would be educated better in smaller classes and classes where only English is spoken. No need to close schools - same number of schoolrooms - less pupils. - which cancels out your supposed animosity from the teachers and parents.

Glasgow has been forced to ‘‘absorb’’ immigrants ever since Glasgow City Council accepted a two hundred and fifty million pound pay off from the Home Office to ‘‘absorb’’ thousands of asylum seekers into the city. This opened up the doors to transporters to bring their thousands of immigrants, Roma etc., to Glasgow because Glasgow councillors let it be known that they will accept all into Glasgow (without asking the people of Glasgow).

‘‘Them's the facts.’’
52

Scotland Needs YOU,

Glasgow 10/07/2009 17:22:16
39 - radge dug

The article isn’t about ‘‘The kids in Scotland with the best attainment’’ its about, amongst other problems, the kids in Scotland who are under achieving - the kids who are being deprived of teaching time whilst time is being spent on non-English speaking children.

Kids don’t have to ‘‘absorb 3 or 4 languages in childhood’’, there are other subjects to be absorbed. I am all for children learning another language, especially Gaelic, but learn outside normal school times.

And your departing insult of ‘‘Bigots don't usually like checking the evidence though’’ Sad that you had to resort to a cheap insult in an attempt to add credibility tour comment.
53

Miss H,

10/07/2009 17:35:24
53 Rubbish - the big jump in bilingual learners in Glasgow has come from EU migration from the accession states.

What you are not considering is this - at the moment eastern Europe is playing catch-up with the west but as soon as their economies start to grow it's a big potential market - comopanies employing people who speak the lingo will have a comparative advantage.
54

Electric Hermit,

10/07/2009 18:00:29
1
Javier Bardem

"Yes it is all slowly unravelling for the SNP."

Like the author of this latest piece of anti-SNP propaganda, you are quick with the glib phrases but very short on constructive criticism or meaningful suggestions.

Butt out, dummy! Education is far too important to be used as a political football by numpties like you.

55

Electric Hermit,

10/07/2009 18:12:47
19
frank mcbride

"It certainly doesn't need the small-minded, bigotted attitude exhibited in your comment."

I have to disagree with you here. The general point made by Scotland Needs YOU (#17) is perfectly legitimate. Inclusiveness should always be our aim, but education is too important for practicalities to be subordinated to even the noblest ideal.

We have a duty to educate ALL the children in Scotland. And if this can best be achieved by teaching those who have little or no English separately, then so be it.

The only thing that I would add to this is that the separation must be as minimal as possible. The non-English speaker should be integrated with other pupils at all times and for all purposes other than where their lack of English dictates otherwise. And the aim must always be to have them fully integrated into mainstream education at the very earliest opportunity.

The other point is, of course, that adequate funding MUST be provided. Giving non-English speakers the skills they require is not something that can be achieved within existing budgets. Additional, ring-fenced funding must be provided. It will be expensive. But what more worthwhile investment is there than educating our young people?


56

Electric Hermit,

10/07/2009 18:22:40
The document described literacy as "the set of skills which allows an individual to engage fully in society and in learning, through the different forms of language, and the range of texts, which society values and finds useful". He said: "No it's not. It's about how to read and write. This sort of cr*p does not take us any further forward."

------------

What an excellent definition of literacy. And what a narrow-minded, shallow-thinking buffoon Keir Bloomer is to describe it in the terms he does.

The ability to read a label and write your own name may be all that is required if we are aiming to turn out generations of supermarket shelf-fillers. But genuine literacy is far more than this.

Genuine literacy is not, as Bloomer so foolishly asserts, about "how to read and write". It is about access. Access to information. Access to culture. Access to broader education. It is about having the tools to be a fully functioning member of civilised society.

Go to the back of the class, Bloomer!

57

Masterpiece,

10/07/2009 18:28:14
54
I am for all children learning English but should they not do that in their own time afterall do their parents not speak English at home and it would save us all a lot of money if they shouldered their responsibilities.
They did bring them into this world surely it is up to them to teach them this foreign colonial language if they are so hot on English.
58

Electric Hermit,

10/07/2009 18:30:30
5
Fifi la Bonbon

You should learn the Latin for, "excrement of a male bovine animal".

59

Electric Hermit,

10/07/2009 18:32:16
59
Masterpiece

"I am for all children learning English but should they not do that in their own time..."

What other aspects of education do you think our schools should not be responsible for?

60

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/07/2009 18:44:15
53 You are not really making a lot of sense. There is no Council in the land that sees school rolls fall and just reduces class sizes, but keeps the same number of schools and the same number of teachers. That's not a realistic scenario. The asylum seeker families moved into empty houses which nobody else wanted, and their children have helped keep some schools open. And as other posters have pointed out having multi-lingual pupils isn't really a problem in the long term, it can be a benefit, and support is put in for schools which need it - which isn't all of them.

And the people of Glasgow have had opportunities to make their views known by voting out the Councillors who brought in the asylum seekers - well, they voted out some of them, but they replaced them with SNP Councillors who support housing the asylum seekers too.
61

Electric Hermit,

10/07/2009 18:55:16
54
Scotland Needs YOU

While I agreed with your general point (#17) about separate classes for non-English speakers as a PRACTICAL measure, your xenophobic rhetoric is anathema to me.

Scotland is the great country it is largely due to the contributions made by countless incomers over the centuries. Our culture is enriched by the blending in of facets from myriad other cultures. Scotland is a multi-cultural society in the truest sense of that term. And those of us who cherish our land would have it no other way.

62

SECESSION NOW,

10/07/2009 19:22:47
56
Electric Hermit,
10/07/2009 18:00:29


Like the North end of a South bound skunk his reek is unmistakable.
63

Scotland Needs YOU,

Glasgow 10/07/2009 21:25:35
62 Observer

To see school rolls fall resulting in reduced class sizes and keeping the same number of schools and the same number of teachers would be a wonderful opportunity to put into practice the government’s failed agenda, ie, classes to contain no more than 18 pupils ....

quote: THE position is very straightforward, according to Scotland's largest teaching union. Reducing class sizes, says the Educational Institute of Scotland (EIS), will improve educational attainment by allowing teachers to spend more time with individual pupils. On top of that, the union argues, cutting the number of pupils in a classroom will also see a reduction in indiscipline, a problem regularly highlighted by teachers and parents alike. :unquote.

It is very much a realistic scenario. Problem is, Glasgow City Council will not spend enough of its (our) cash on our own children.

‘‘having multi-lingual pupils isn't really a problem in the long term’’ ....

What about the long term problem and damage to our own children whose education is held back due to non English speakers in the classroom.

‘‘and support is put in for schools which need it’’ ....

‘‘Support’’ such as the wasted and unnecessary finance of translators.

True, the people of Glasgow voted out Labour numpties and replaced them with SNP numpties, just as the people of Scotland and Britain will vote out the Brown numpties and replace them with more of Salmond’s numpties and Cameron’s numpties - and the wars will go on and our soldiers will continue to be killed, even though most people do not agree (I think) with the war. In other words, we do not have much choice - asylum seekers are here whether we want them or not.
64

Scotland Needs YOU,

Glasgow 10/07/2009 21:28:12
62 Observer
‘‘The asylum seeker families moved into empty houses which nobody else wanted, and their children have helped keep some schools open.’’


At the time of the asylum seekers being brought to Glasgow there were reports of ‘seven thousand Glasgow pre-war homes, inhabited by Glaswegians which were unsanitary and riddled with damp and rot.’ There were also reports of thousands of homeless people in Glasgow. There is a vast housing problem in Glasgow and these houses should have been made available to our own people - not doled out as free furnished. free heated accommodation to thousands of dispersed asylum seekers.

The children of asylum seekers have helped keep some schools open (at cost) and help impede our children’s education.
65

Electric Hermit,

10/07/2009 21:36:15
65
Scotland Needs YOU

"...such as the wasted and unnecessary finance of translators."

Are you claiming that translators are employed when there is nothing to translate?

Do you have evidence of this?

66

Electric Hermit,

10/07/2009 21:41:40
66
Scotland Needs YOU

"...these houses should have been made available to our own people..."

All social housing us allocated according to need.

"The children of asylum seekers have helped keep some schools open (at cost) and help impede our children’s education."

It would be pleasing to think your concern was for the welfare of the children. But that is self-evidently not the case. Anyone who would deny a child an education out of xenophobic hatred has to rank among the lowest of the low.

67

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/07/2009 21:54:16
Scotland needs you - Blockem?

I understand exactly what you are saying. I disagree with it but I understand it. But I don't think you understand the prevailing circumstances at the time. The Housing Department had no money, nada, not a bean. It's all changed now but at the time (and I was there) it was desperate. It was an opportunity to get empty houses let that we couldn't give away. It was revenue, and revenue that paid for repairs and maintenance for other tenants.

I think you are genuinely concerned about the working class people of Glasgow (and I totally respect that) and you think resources should be directed towards them. And you are completely right about that. I couldn't agree with you more. But the asylum seekers didn't take anything away from them - because they weren't going to get it.

The working class are treated like shlt in my view, but lets blame the Government for that - not people who are just wanting to escape persecution and make a better life.
68

Scotland Needs YOU,

G 11/07/2009 01:43:17
67 Electric Hermit,

*THE cost of translators for the schools in Glasgow has soared to more than £950,000 in a year. Services in dozens of languages for city schools and nurseries rose by £65,000 last year - up 14%. But the new figures, in response to a Freedom of Information request, could be much higher.Education bosses were unable to give a cost for school interpreters which largely employ private interpreter firms when needed on an ad-hoc basis. A Glasgow Translation and Interpreting Service is run by the city's social work department and provides most of the work for the education department.

*source, Evening Times, Publication date 29/05/08
69

Scotland Needs YOU,

Glasgow 11/07/2009 01:44:44
68 Electric Hermit

The needs of my own people in my city and my country come first - before any asylum seeker or immigrant.

The education and needs of our (yours?) children in my city and my country come first - before the children of any asylum seeker or immigrant.

Anyone (you) who would educate the children of immigrants to the detriment of one of their ‘own children ‘‘has to rank among the lowest of the low’’.

Have a taste of your own foul rhetoric - do you like it?
70

Scotland Needs YOU,

Glasgow 11/07/2009 01:52:52
69 Observer

I know you understand what my agenda is.

I understand GCC is always low on funds - that’s why they did the £250,000,000 Home Office deal - short term funding.

The empty houses were upgraded, furnished, decorated and made available, heat free of charge to the asylum seekers. The £250,000,000 should have been got and used for our own people. If part of the £250,000,000 was used to the benefit of non-asylum tenants (I don’t believe it was) then that was not part of the HO deal - but, our ‘‘working class are treated like s**t‘‘.

The asylum seekers took £250,000,000 from Glasgow’s own and £££billions from Britain’s own. This is our money and should have been spent on our own people - but, our ‘‘working class are treated like s**t’’.

OUR working class are just wanting to escape persecution (from being ‘‘treated like s**t’’) and make a better life for themselves and their kids.

Obscene that there are too many of our own people who choose to put asylum seekers and immigrants ahead of our own people and treat our working class like s**t.

{you}
71

Observer,,

Glasgow 11/07/2009 08:07:53
I think your view is very simplistic. You seem to think it's a struggle between the asylum seekers (who know all about being persecuted) and the indigenous working class. It isn't. We all have a lot more in common than you think.
72

Iain Mac,

11/07/2009 11:26:03
Scotland needs you - your post about languages shows how out of touch you are. GO and visit a Gaelic unit - the kids don't 'learn' Gaelic they pick it up by doing.

Kids 'learn' best by living the language - thus Gaelic medium kids learn everything IN Gaelic. The same with French - if can do a PE lesson IN French they pick it up as a real language.

Again, immigrant kids are usually of huge benefit to schools. They tend to have better behaviour, better cognitive skills due to bilingualism and of course they add their own experience to knowledge of our world.
73

Electric Hermit,

11/07/2009 12:02:25
70
Scotland Needs YOU

Your claim was that the expenditure on translators was "wasted and unnecessary". Rather than producing evidence to support this contention you have shown it to be a lie.

74

Electric Hermit,

11/07/2009 12:06:04
71
Scotland Needs YOU

"Anyone (you) who would educate the children of immigrants to the detriment of one of their ‘own children..."

Not being a xenophobic bigot, to me, they are all just children. Children who need an education. If they are in my country, my country has a responsibility to provide that education.

The Scotland that you and your ilk want to create is not my country.

75

ddeaston,

Falkirk 11/07/2009 12:32:05
Lets stick to the story and not let it be hijacked!

I am pleased that the new Curriculum for Excellence has finally been criticised. The vast majority of teachers are against the radical changes being made and whilst unions are asking for more time they should actually be asking for it to scrapped.

I wonder how many of those who have voiced their opinions actually know what the implications of ACfE actually are, since Fiona Hyslop has done a poor job and making it clear to the public/parents what actually WILL happen this time next year. The destruction of Scottish education

76

Bletherinskyte,

11/07/2009 12:44:42
"The vast majority of teachers are against the radical changes being made"

Really? How many teachers have you spoken to?

By the way the "A" was dropped long ago.
77

Electric Hermit,

11/07/2009 12:54:22
77
ddeaston

Maybe they should rename it, "A Curriculum for Disaster".

Or maybe not.

http://tiny.pl/hhmxw

78

Electric Hermit,

11/07/2009 12:58:45
77
ddeaston

"I wonder how many of those who have voiced their opinions actually know what the implications of ACfE actually are..."

Why don't you help us out by listing what you consider to be the three most adverse implications - explaining why you think they will lead to the "destruction of Scottish education".

79

ddeaston,

Falkirk 11/07/2009 16:29:37
No 78 thank you for your sarcastic comment, really constructive.

As a teacher who works in a school with another 125 teachers and have a good few friends who are teachers I think I have spoken to a lot. Whilst I admit that there are teachers who may support the changes, it would appear that they are in the minority.

However I would suggest that most teachers are in support of the four capacities linked to CfE

Some major concers would be:

* Pupils will normally study common courses during s1,2 & 3 before they make subject choices for study in S4. This will will mean that they will only have 1 year of study before sitting the new exam at the end of S4.

* Some current research shows that pupils become bored in S2 and are ready to make their subject choices. How will they cope with this being carried on for another year? Studying subjects that they know they do not want to take. Indeed some schools, in recent years, have been allowing all pupils to make their subject choices at the end of S1 sitting standard grade exams at the end of S3. This allows for a greater depth of learning to take place over a 2 year Higher.

* There is the potential for every school in scotland to approach CfE in different ways. Will this cause problems for pupils who have to move schools?

* As of yet schools have no idea what the new one year S4 exams are going to look like. Create courses now that will develop into an as yet unknown.

* Will a 1 year S4 course prepare pupils for sitting the 'gold standard' higher?

I know this is more than three No 77 but I will stop here although I could go on.

Some people may think these are not problems but in my mind they are.
80

Electric Hermit,

11/07/2009 16:44:30
81
ddeaston

"This will will mean that they will only have 1 year of study before sitting the new exam at the end of S4."

Assuming that their studies in S1, S2 and S3 do NOT constitute preparation for said exam. Which seems, shall we say, counter-intuitive.

"...pupils become bored in S2..."

Teachers not doing their job, then.

"This allows for a greater depth of learning..."

Breadth is at least as important as depth.

"There is the potential for every school in scotland to approach CfE in different ways. Will this cause problems for pupils who have to move schools?"

Why assume that it would? Schools already have to cope with the natural diversity of pupils' abilities, personalities etc. If they are able to do this for students who arrive on one day, why not for students who arrive the next day - or the next week...

(BTW - You claim to be a teacher, and yet you spell Scotland without a capital!)

"As of yet schools have no idea what the new one year S4 exams are going to look like. Create courses now that will develop into an as yet unknown."

Come off it! It's not as if the new curriculum involves a whole new set of subjects that have never been taught before.

"Will a 1 year S4 course prepare pupils for sitting the 'gold standard' higher?"

Depends on how it's taught and the aptitude of the pupil, I suppose. Much as now.

And education is about more than exams. An important point you seem to have failed to take on board.


81

Scotland Needs YOU,

Glasgow 11/07/2009 19:04:04
73
Observer,

It is a struggle between ‘‘asylum seekers’’ and the ‘‘indigenous working class.’’ It’s a struggle which should never have happened. Why should our people struggle for a decent living and have our wages siphoned to provide for a load of foreign freeloaders.
You are not so naive as to be conned that they are fleeing persecution, blah, blah, yawn, yawn. What’s your answer to the hundreds of thousands who have been through our legal courts and found that they have no legal or moral right to be in Britain and stick two fingers up at our laws and refuse point blank to GO!

We have nothing in common with asylum seekers. We have our own home-grown freeloaders (every country has) - they are our people - that’s what we have in common with them. We may not like it - but, ‘‘Them's the facts.’’
82

Scotland Needs YOU,

Glasgow 11/07/2009 19:05:04
74
Iain Mac,

‘‘absorbing’’ / ‘‘learning’’ / ‘‘picking up’’ / brainwashing - it’s all a process of the mind, commonly referred to as learning.

And the usual garbage - how superior immigrant kids are to our own kids - what harm have the Scots inflicted on you?
83

Scotland Needs YOU,

Glasgow 11/07/2009 19:06:04
70
Electric Hermit

I am claiming that the money spent on translators for non-English speaking immigrant is wasted and unnecessary - in other words, don’t waste our money on immigrant children - spend our money on the education of our own children. That clear enough for you?
84

Scotland Needs YOU,

Glasgow 11/07/2009 19:07:55
71
Electric Hermit

Not being a self-loathing failure, to me, my children are paramount - children who need an education. They ARE my country, my country has a responsibility to provide that education - Scotland has no such responsibility to the children of immigrants.

The Scotland that you and your ilk want to create is not my country and thankfully never will be.
85

Electric Hermit,

11/07/2009 19:09:39
83
Scotland Needs YOU

As someone who has been part of the "indigenous working class" for a number of decades now, I utterly and categorically reject your xenophobic attitude as totally unrepresentative of the nation and people I call my own.

86

Electric Hermit,

11/07/2009 19:11:11
85
Scotland Needs YOU

"That clear enough for you?"

Your vile bitterness and mindless hatred is all too clear. What a sad case you are.

87

Electric Hermit,

11/07/2009 19:12:33
86
Scotland Needs YOU

"Not being a self-loathing failure..."

You truly are a pitiful creature.

88

Bletherinskyte,

11/07/2009 19:30:44
#81

So, from talking to fewer than half of one percent of teachers in Scotland and from only one sector, you feel able to make the sweeping statement.

"The vast majority of teachers are against the radical changes"

Sarcasm? If you are going to criticise, at least get the terminology correct.
89

Scotland Needs YOU,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 09:40:32
Electric Hermit,

‘‘dummy / narrow-minded, shallow-thinking buffoon Keir Bloomer is / excrement of a male bovine animal. / your xenophobic rhetoric is anathema to me. / xenophobic hatred / the lowest of the low. / lie / xenophobic attitude / Your vile bitterness and mindless hatred is all too clear. What a sad case you are / You truly are a pitiful creature’’.

All the above insults are from your comments on this thread. All aimed at posters who did not agree with your views.

If someone expresses a view which is at odds with your own, why must the other person be a dummy, narrow-minded, the lowest, sad case, pitiful creature.
Perhaps you feel that the other is of such low intelligence and character that they are incapable of holding any view whatsoever and therefore must be gagged.

When someone belittles another person it usually indicates a lack of confidence. For whatever reason, the belittler is intimidated by the person they are belittling. Keep in mind that belittling isn't a full fledged cut-down. It is merely attempting to take a person down a few pegs, often to the belittler's level. Low self esteem and lack of confidence in the belittler plays a huge role in all of this.
90

Electric Hermit,

12/07/2009 10:58:33
91
Scotland Needs YOU

Stop whining and try addressing the topic.

91

Scotland Needs YOU,

Glasgow 12/07/2009 19:20:55
92
Electric Hermit.

Add ‘‘whining’’ to your list of insults.

I have previously addressed the topic, at 17 10/07/2009 08:43:10 ....

‘‘There are 10,800 (1 year ago the number was 8,853) schoolchildren in Glasgow who have English as a second language, a seventh of the total school population. There are 102 different languages spoken at home by the offspring of immigrants. The most common after English, are Punjabi, Urdu and Arabic, Chinese Mandarin, Polish, Cantonese, Swahili, Kurdish and Thai, French, German, Spanish and Italian. Into this mix have come unprecedented numbers of asylum seeker and refugee families, many of whose children arrive at school unable to speak, read, or write English. At the start of the school term last summer, 25 children - none of whom spoke English - turned up at a Govanhill, Glasgow primary. There can be 37 children in one week arriving in schools across the city. We not only have pupils who don’t have English but don't have any education, in particular girls from Afghanistan who have not been allowed access to education. How can any teacher even begin to control or teach children who can’t even communicate in English. Get these non-speaking, non-writing, non-reading of English out of mainstream education, reduce the class sizes, and give our teachers a chance to teach. Don’t criticize our schoolteachers. Reprimand the likes of Glasgow’s city councillors who proudly informed us that they had placed more than 100 Roma children who could not speak, read or write English into our schools.’’

Do you not remember? You were in part agreement with my comment (57). Thank you for granting me the opportunity to repeat my comment - you have your usefulness.

Goodbye.
92

Phil C,

28/07/2009 08:51:38
Just bl**dy teach, preferably from the same schoolbook.

 

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