"Because my God is not an interventionist God that comes in and stops things from happening or makes things happen that would not normally happen."

Then where do her beliefs stem from? The god she believes in is certainly not the god described in the Bible or the jealous god I was taught to fear. I would have more respect for her if she publicly ripped out the pages of the bible that contravene her beliefs and told us it was wrong.

#1, too right! The Bible is full of God coming in and stopping things or making things happen...what part of "God is Almighty" doesn't she get? Ms. Kesting seems lukewarm in her faith. "The hope of people...are the signs of a loving, caring God." Quite New-agey, putting her faith in people....if we really didn't need God, wouldn't we by now have made our Utopia that everyone's been daydreaming about since the first human? One can only hope Rev. Kesting will really and truly find God through this job.

She seems to speak of a God that appears to be a gestalt being drawn from the collective workings of human minds in concert with each other. A God that depends on the human being for its existence.

This is certainly not the jealous and vengeful terror of the Old Testament that is Yaweh. Nor the Jehovah of the Christians. Then again, it is not any other of the myriad gods humans have created in their fabulous mythologies and stories the world over.

No, she describes a God the psuchologists are comfortable with. A deity who exists in the minds of the believers, who needs them to work together to exert any influence. Which makes us like a hive of insects with a group mind, where the strongest can direct the collective. Interesting, isn't it?

I note she says nothing about Jesus in the article ... and that is the single definition that differentiates Christians from other belief systems. Indeed, it provides their names, doesn't it?

I wonder why that was??

If you don't believe the path you are on is the right path how can you lead others? I am an elder in the Prebyterian Church USA and I get quite frustrated at times at our leaders. If not now, when is the time to take a stand for Christ? If your life is not Christ centered why not just become a Unitarian? Our God is a Jealous God. He expects us to follow his word not dabble in New Age nice.

It think it is very refreshing to hear this. The old rehotoric you expect has lead to dwindling numbers, and that includes me, but it's it's honest dialgue like this that might make a change and gte people back to thinking again. The way I was brought up was in an environment of fear, this lady sounds compasionate, and honest, you got my vote.

"Because my God is not an interventionist God that comes in and stops things from happening or makes things happen that would not normally happen."

So all those who pray for a loved one or world peace are wasting their time?

#3 well put - the collective delusion is to ensnare the gullible and have them believe the absurd so that they can then go on and commit the atrocities we see littered in their wakes.

At least this silly society we live in supplies her with an easy living but the automatic respect they used to enjoy has gone. They'll never recover it.

I see priests of all religions as nothing more than living fossils. Some appear more fossilized than others (observe the Muslims and Jews and how they live today). They are living echoes of the past. Christian priests fall over themselves trying to keep up with the changes and abandon huge swathes of their 'sacred laws' at the drop of a hat. They pick and choose from their nasty little books to validate anything they want. Luckily though their world of Limbo has been closed. Where do all the unchristened children go now by god?
What was it that Jesus was claimed to have said: 'the blind will lead the blind into the pit'? Absolutely, and they drag the rest of us screaming and kicking with them!

I read the bible again last year just to be sure I was not missing anything. The Free Church of Scotland is a difficult cult to shake off.

The God she describes is not mentioned in the bible. "Because my God is not an interventionist God that comes in and stops things from happening or makes things happen that would not normally happen."

Why pray? Why worship? Why Bother?

The more education and sense filters into the faithfull the less they can reconcile their beliefs with the reality of the world. The bible is full of terrible acts of barbarism from God and his peoples. Has God had a new labour spin doctor make over.

He cannot change his position of his laws surely! If it was a sin punishable by death and now it is ok. Who was the man who overuled GOD.

Man created God in his own image. It happened all over the world by many peoples and cultures. Some good, some barbaric(Islam) but a total waste of time and resources.

Made up stories by people in the dark ages to scare you into submission. Look at the history of the Catholic church. My GOD do they have alot to Confess.

There is no God. You are not going to Heaven(with or without virgins) and No, I am not going to Hell either. We live. We die and that is all we can be sure of. Why is it not enough for some.

Open your eyes. This is your life. Use it wisely and positively. There is no need to Bow to anyone or anything.

Doubts, despair, woolly theology. The modern face of Christian leadership in Scotland?

Listening to her description of Christian faith: why does she bother? And along the way, whatever happened to eternity?

The whole point of Christianity is that it turns on Jesus Christ, conspicuous in her comments by His absence.

Some of my favourite contradictions in the bible.

To Kill or not to Kill

1 Samuel 15:2-3
Thus saith the Lord of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare him not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Or
Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17
Thou shalt not kill.

Exodus 23:7
The innocent and righteous slay thou not.

Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20
Do not kill.

Matthew 19:18
Thou shalt do no murder.

Abraham has how many Sons?

Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham when he was tried, offered up Isaac, ... his only begotten son.

Genesis 22:2
Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, ... and offer him there for a burnt offering.

Or
Galatians 4:22
Abraham had two sons; the one by a bond-woman, and the other by a free woman.
Genesis 25:1-2
Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

In whose name is baptism to be performed?

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Or
Acts 8:16
They were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

How should nonbelievers be treated? Kill them.

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone

Maybe she has doubts as she has bothered to read the bible thoroughly and realised that it is total nonsense from beginning to end.

393 specific contradictoray statements is a little bit shabby for an all powerfull God.


But my favourite is the number of people God kills in the good book 2,270,971+ see below for references and running total.

SAB, Brick Testament Number Killed Cumulative Total

Lot's wife for looking back Gen.19:26,
BT 1 1 Er who was "wicked in the sight of the Lord" Gen.38:7, BT 1 2
Onan for spilling his seed Gen.38:10, BT 1 3
Pharaoh and 600 chariot captains (plus his entire army) Ex.14:8-26 601+ 604+
For dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf Ex.32:27-28, 35, BT 3000 3604+
Aaron's sons for offering strange fire before the Lord Lev.10:1-3, Num.3:4, 26:61, BT 2 3606+
A blasphemer Lev.24:10-23, BT 1 3607+
A man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath Num.15:32-36, BT 1 3608+
Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families) Num.16:27, BT 12+ 3620+
Burned to death for offering incense Num.16:35, 26:10, BT 250 3870+
For complaining Num.16:49, BT 14,700 18,570+
For "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab" Num.25:9, BT 24,000 42,570+
Midianite massacre (32,000 virgins were kept alive) Num.31:1-35, BT 90,000+ 132,570+
God tells Joshua to stoned to death Achan (and his family) for taking the accursed thing. Joshua 7:10-12, 24-26, BT 5+ 132,575+
God tells Joshua to attack Ai and do what he did to Jericho (kill everyone). Joshua 8:1-25, BT 12,000 144,575+
Joshua kills 5 kings and hangs their dead bodies on trees Joshua 10:24-26, BT 5 144,580+
God delivered Canaanites and Perizzites Judges 1:4, BT 10,000 154,580+
Ehud delivers a message from God: a knife into the king's belly Jg.3:15-22, BT 1 154,581+
God delivered Moabites Jg.3:28-29, BT 10,000 164,581+
God forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other. Jg.7:2-22, 8:10, BT 120,000 284,581+
The Spirit of the Lord comes on Samson Jg.14:19, BT 30 284,61

2,270,971+

The Spirit of the Lord comes mightily on Samson Jg.15:14-15, BT 1000 285,611+
Samson's God-assisted act of terrorism Jg.16:27-30, BT 3000 288,611+
"The Lord smote Benjamin" Jg.20:35-37, BT 25,100 313,711+
More Benjamites Jg.20:44-46 25,000 338,711+
For looking into the ark of the Lord 1 Sam.6:19 50,070 388,781+
God delivered Philistines 1 Sam.14:12 20 388,801+
Samuel (at God's command) hacks Agag to death 1 Sam.15:32-33 1 388,802+
"The Lord smote Nabal." 1 Sam.25:38 1 388,803+
Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling 2 Sam.6:6-7, 1 Chr.13:9-10 1 388,804+
David and Bathsheba's baby boy 2 Sam.12:14-18 1 388,805+
Seven sons of Saul hung up before the Lord 2 Sam.21:6-9 7 388,812+
From plague as punishment for David's census (men only; probably 200,000 if including women and children) 2 Sam.24:13, 1 Chr.21:7 70,000+ 458,812+
A prophet for believing another prophet's lie 1 Kg.13:1-24 1 458,813+
God delivers the Syrians into the Israelites' hands 1 Kg.20:28-29 100,000 558,813+
God makes a wall fall on Syrian soldiers 1 Kg.20:30 27,000 585,813+
God sent a lion to eat a man for not killing a prophet 1 Kg.20:35-36 1 585,814+
Ahaziah is killed for talking to the wrong god. 2 Kg.1:2-4, 17, 2 Chr.22:7-9 1 585,815+
Burned to death by God 2 Kg.1:9-12 102 585,917+
God sends two bears to kill children for making fun of Elisha's bald head 2 Kg.2:23-24 42 585,959+
Trampled to death for disbelieving Elijah 2 Kg.7:17-20 1 585,960+
Jezebel 2 Kg.9:33-37 1 585,961+
God sent lions to kill "some" foreigners 2 Kg.17:25-26 3+ 585,964+
Sleeping Assyrian soldiers 2 Kg.19:35, 2 Chr.32:21, Is.37:36 185,000 770,964+
Saul 1 Chr.10:14 1 770,965+
God delivers Israel into the hands of Judah 2 Chr.13:15-17 500,000 1,270,965+
Jeroboam 2 Chr.13:20 1 1,270,966+
"The Lord smote the Ethiopians." 2 Chr.14:9-14 1,000,000 2,270,966+
God kills Jehoram by making his bowels fall out 2 Chr.21:14-19 1 2,270,967+
Ezekiel's wife Ezek.24:15-18

#13-#14 Jeeze Jock ... you've gotta lotta time on your hands, eh??

4 turgid, verbose and unconvincing rants from Jock McTamson - who is it that's really preaching to the converted here? Yawn! Won't bother even responding further - like everyone else!

This is apparently a very nice lady - well organized, persuasive, charitable - who has been installed as the titular head of what has become a theistic social club. And why not? When churches preached absolute doctrine some accepted and lived it as best as they could, and others grew discouraged at their own human weeakness and left. With droves leaving, the income of the ministers began to shrink, leaving clergy having to decide between calling and income. Income won.

There is a place in Scotish society for this brand of "religion." It allows like-minded Scots to gather, and socialize, meet potential spouses and develop some allegiance to something higher than themselves. This is not, however, the worship of God.

God has, at divers times and in divers places manifested himself and his will to his children - inviting them to become more than just loving humans. For those who make themselves "chosen" through adherance to His word, He promises blessings both in life and in Eternity. But He forces no man to heaven.

So for those who need more than a social club the search begins for that religion which, as one theologian declared, requires all things of His people. My best wishes for those engaged in such a search. My you find the truth, and may the truth find you.

This God I know IS an interventionist God. He DOES reveal Himself to His children. He DOES guide them to ways that bring true happiness. He DOES answer their prayers with more than peaceful feelings. He DOES rebuke the destroyer for their sakes. And, through the atonement of His Holy Son, Jesus, He DOES forgive their sins, and prepares them for a life hereafter that holds the greatest possible promise.

I hope you find Him.

12 Jock MacTamson 2
It’s hard gettiong that message sacroos Jock as so many religious people doné actually strudy the Bible or ‘pick-out’the odd good bit.
We had a discussion about the falsehood and violence in the Bible (almost ended now) in Scotsman forum
http://news.scotsman.com/politics/Blair-received-into-Catholic-Church.3617088.jp
From about post #370 on - (earlier ones are Catholic Vs Protestant)

Copy this in to you browser for a quick smile:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KiAvmzcZbg

16 Strict Ivan Jellicoe
Jock has raised an important issue - the Bible is not the ‘Good Book’ that it’s claimed to be.
Why waste time being rude?

Bring back the moderates such as John Knox we need his ilk NOW, This wishy washy claptrap is exactly what the enemy needs to see being propulgated ............. otherwise in the richt near future we will be forgoing our bacon butties, bending double five times a day, wearing bed sheets, but on the positive side, the wife wilnae be allowed oot unless she is happit up and wi yersel. fur me a wull miss the buttie mair that seeing the wifes fizzog ooot an aboot :-)

Robbie 2 that youtube is below your intelect, I am dissappointed.

21 The Fly Fifer
Apologies FF if I offended. It was not meant to be ‘blasphemous’. The singer could have been anyone - it was just the shock ending that was somewhat humorous.

thank you Robbie, accepted of course, I did find that it was blasphemous, and distastful, but opinion is mine alone.

23 The Fly Fifer

How about this FF - not religious more on American’s general knowledge. Now I don’t want to upset Americans but it is quite amusing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVbobdL3yi0&feature=related

17
Walt.
You sound like a reasonable man.

Not.

And your American churches aren't "theistic social clubs"?

Or do you have your own one?

Duh!I just seen Utah in yer moniker.LOL.

As I WELCOME INWARD INVESTMENT TO OUR WEE SMALL COUNTRY I WOULD NEVER SUGGEST THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST. BETTER HAVING JOBS AND PRETEND GOD EXISTS LEST WE OFFEND, THE NUTTERS.

Before abandoning belief in "interventionist God" entirely, perhaps Rev Kesting's moribund faith convictions could be bolstered by, and perhaps also closed-minded anti-Christian bigots could benefit from: THE TWILIGHT OF ATHEISM, by former atheist Alister McGrath (professor/scientist, Oxford); and/or selections from former atheist Lee Strobel (i.e., THE CASE FOR A CREATOR, THE CASE FOR CHRIST; A JOURNALIST'S PERSONAL INVESTIGATION OF THE EVIDENCE FOR JESUS); and/or maybe Dinesh Desouza's WHAT'S SO GREAT ABOUT CHRISTIANITY. Might also be useful to peruse: www.existence-of-god.com; www.everystudent.com.

PS for Jock (#12), et al. The original Hebrew sometimes rendered (imprecisely) "Thou shalt not kill" is actually and correctly rendered/translated: "Thou shalt not murder." The wise sages of most cultures, and revelation, have minds capable of drawing distinctions between say, premeditated murder versus a police officer shooting and fatally wounding a would-be murderer to prevent a murder, or a military force being used to stop a Hitler, etc. It might be noted further that, revelation comes from a Mind capable of, and is comprehensible primarily to minds capable of, holding paradoxical truths in tension. That doesn't mean all human minds are capable of being addressed; it would, for example, exclude the deliberately obtuse....

Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs:
A) They are at your door to recruit you for enslavement to their watchtower corporation,they will say that "we are just here to share a message from the Bible" this is deception right off.

B) The 'message' is their false Gospel that Jesus is ruling in heaven already since 1914.The problem with this is it's not just a cute fairy tale,Jesus warned of the false prophets who would claim "..look he is here in the wilderness,or see here he is at the temple"

C) Their anti-blood transfusion ban has killed hundreds if not thousands

D) once they recruit you they will "love bomb" you in cult fashion to also recruit your family & friends or cut them off. There are many more dangers,Jehovah's Witnesses got a bad rap for good and valid reasons.

99% of the world has rejected the teachings of the Watchtower Jehovah’s Witnesses, the darker truth is they are a destructive and oppressive organization.
--
Danny Haszard Jehovah's Witness X 33 years http://www.freeminds.org

#4 ... why not just become a Unitarian?

Yes, why not.

I did when I was 5 years old and was told Jesus had two fathers.