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Big Brother is watching us – and he lives in the town hall

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Published Date: 28 April 2008
NEW spy laws are being used by Scottish councils to track people suspected of housing-benefit fraud, selling cigarettes to children and environmental-health offences.
Campaigners are now calling for a "root-and-branch review" into the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (Ripa), after the scale of its use by local authorities across the UK was revealed.

Ripa was introduced in 2000, primarily giving the polic
e, security services and HM Revenue and Customs wide powers to spy on people and their communications.

The main objectives of the Act were to help in the fight against crime and terrorism. But in 2002, the powers were controversially extended to councils, offering the opportunity to carry out surveillance.

An investigation has now revealed that councils have even used the Act to track dog-foulers and litterbugs, with some local authorities using the powers more than 100 times in the last 12 months.

Among the Scottish local authorities that confirmed using Ripa in the past year was Aberdeen City Council, which admitted covert surveillance on eight occasions to investigate benefit fraud, environmental-health and trading-standards issues.

The council did not specify which environmental-health offences were involved, but this can include flytipping, littering and noisy-neighbour disputes.

Glasgow City Council carried out physical surveillance 24 times in criminal investigations, over trading-standards offences and illegal money-lending.

Thirteen requests to access phone billing information – another power granted under the Act – were used in the same investigations.

In Perth, the Act was used to investigate whether cigarettes and fireworks were being sold to under-18s.

Earlier this month, it emerged that a family in Poole in Dorset had been covertly tracked for nearly three weeks to check if they lived in a school catchment area.

The investigation has also revealed that the law was used in at least seven cases to find out about people who let their dogs foul; a breach of planning law; an animal-welfare case; and an instance of littering.

The findings have fuelled the debate on the surveillance culture in Britain and whether councils are using Ripa – which has been dubbed "a snoopers' charter" – proportionately.

Privacy International director Simon Davies called for a "root- and-branch review" of Ripa and questioned the huge cost to the taxpayer of the council surveillance.

"There have to be hard limits on the scope of surveillance by local authorities who do not work within the spirit of the Act or indeed the letter," he said.

"Ripa put physical surveillance on a legal basis but that doesn't make it right or morally right – it just covers the backs of local authorities but at huge expense.

"Local authorities can be very petty and vindictive and they can become obsessed with issues like dog fouling and there can be a lack of judgment.

"There need to be measures in place to make sure they do not go overboard in regard to surveillance. In the case of dog-fouling, it's almost morally justifiable to bring these people to book but you have to ask the question is the response an overkill?

"There are better ways to achieve the objectives without using counter-terrorism laws.

"Peer pressure to make such things unacceptable works but takes longer."

Sir Simon Milton, chairman of the Local Government Association, called for a national debate to balance people's worries about crime and antisocial behaviour with their privacy.

"Councils are committed to putting local people first and will use every weapon in their arsenal to catch the rogue traders, doorstep criminals and scam artists who cheat the taxpayer and prey on the vulnerable and the elderly," he said.





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 27 April 2008 9:38 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Cassandra,

28/04/2008 00:56:09
Deny people the choice to behave well and you take away the incentive to be considerate and kind to strangers and the environment.

This is already becoming apparent in our society, in an erosion of the petty considerations that make interactions between strangers easier (like just saying 'please' and 'thank you') and the overweening sense of entitlement that (for example) lets schoolkids and chavs force elders into the gutter on a narrow pavement - and so on.

It would be funny if it wasn't so depressing that our elected servants are trying to legislate for social behaviour and criminalising minor misdemeanors. Should someone really get a criminal record (as happened last week) because he put too much waste in his dustbin?

No wonder we live in a compensation culture - nobody is expected to exercise personal responsibility.

There will soon be a law criminalising every minor lapse of judgement, and morality will bocome a thing of the past.
2

Guga II,

Rockall 28/04/2008 02:44:30
The RIPA Act is a snooper's charter and should be scrapped. There was enough exisiting legislation for those that genuinely needed investigative powers, like the police, Special Branch and MI5. Allowing local councils to act like spies is taking things too far; as is giving people criminal records because their wheelie bin lid is not closed properly.

Does the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party want to criminalise every last one of us; other than their own self-confessed law breakers like The Mouth of the South.
3

Boy Wonder,

28/04/2008 08:27:23
I hate politicians. They're worse criminals than many of the public ... yet WE'RE the ones they want the cameras fixed on 24/7.

Sort out Westminster and Holyrood first before the general public!
4

capy,

leith 28/04/2008 08:36:07
can anybody answer a simple question. why are our governments so scared of us?
5

Mallory,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 08:45:34
#5 Cos at the moment we can throw them out - wouldn't take much more though to suspend elections etc in the best interests of maintaining order and social cohesion.. if they keep looking they may find the 'evidence' they seek.
6

Mad Jock,

East Lothian 28/04/2008 09:06:37
Just what the hell did my father fight the last war for? The Nazis had a snooping culture, using the Gestapo to sneak around looking for minor infringements. Stalin was worse, with a culture of neighbour snooping on neighbour, and this was passed on to East Germany, where the Stasi perpetuated the Stalinist methods.
Too often we hear that "that would never happen in Britain". Well, it's starting to happen. The same mousy little jobsworths, who wouldn't hurt a fly, were the same men who started to pull the fingernails out of suspected "state criminals" 70 years ago.
How long before we hear the traffic warden using the standard excuse, "I was only obeying orders"?
I only have to remind people of the poor German geriatric who was physically and brutally hauled out of the Labour Party conference a few years ago for daring to raise his voice in protest.
We even have to be careful about what we write in these forums. Statements like "I think that Gordon Brown should be shot" could get me into very hot water. The statement would be taken completely out of context, reported in isolation and the Counter Terrorism Act used to arrest me and subject me to 42 days of questioning (if they get their way). It's just as well that I don't have children at a school outside my catchment area as well, or the pliers would have to come out!
7

Tommy Trout,

Alicante, Spain 28/04/2008 09:20:21
This article only gives a brief account of how many times this RIPA legislation has been abused. One of the English Sunday papers identified one English council that has used/abused it 144 times. The problem is too many lawyers in the government who's natural knee-jerk reaction is to want to draw up legislation to solve whatever they see as a problem. First step...ban lawyers from holding public office.
I have been against this type of legislation since the introduction of the detention of terrorist laws as I have lived in two "Police States" in the past and the last thing you want is to give the police (never mind local councils) too much power, because inevitably they will use it to their advantage. I know there are many who will say, if you have nothing to fear what are you worried about. Well remember that when your getting dragged into a lawyers office to be told you don't have to commit a crime, only "they" had to think you were considering one, and they could have you arrested. I've been there, and it's not pleasant.
Wake up Britain!!!
8

john z,

edinburgh 28/04/2008 09:24:13
These powers need scrapped. A council NEVER needs to use such powers, it is lazy lazy controlling government.

Do we really want the scallys in local councils able to at will tap phone/mobile lines, spy on people, and intercept post?? I mean, seriously, some of these people are just not pillars of society - and that's putting it nicely.

How long before my local council start using these powers to spy on people who object to them using these RIPA powers - in the name of 'security' of course??

We are in a new era in this country. Watch what you say, use a pay as you go telephone, and have several sims, use different modes of transport, and always encrypt your E-mails. As your internet is continually monitored, use a VPN, and anonymous proxy. Oh, and never forget, you are being filmed and watched every time you step out of your front door.

At present, this country is very close to former eastern Germany. Please people, make your voice heard at the ballot box, before it is too late, and the right to vote is removed. History shows it will happen, just a matter of time. Check your history books, and you will find this is EXACTLY what has happened time and again on the road to totalitarianism in many countries. People sat back and watched their right being taken away, bit by bit, until suddenly, it was too late, and they no longer were allowed to protest without becoming 'enemies of the state'.

Is this really what my relatives fought and died for in Germany??
9

Mike S,

28/04/2008 09:53:39
Who's watching Big Brother in the town hall? and I don't mean channel 4's programme.
10

,

28/04/2008 10:01:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
11

Jack fae Glasgow,

Glasgow 28/04/2008 10:11:04
Sir Simon Milton, chairman of the Local Government Association, called for a national debate to balance people's worries about crime and antisocial behaviour with their privacy.

"Councils are committed to putting local people first and will use every weapon in their arsenal to catch the rogue traders, doorstep criminals and scam artists who cheat the taxpayer and prey on the vulnerable and the elderly," he said.

Well, there we have it------it's WAR and they started it!
12

Mad Jock,

East Lothian 28/04/2008 10:16:56
I think that this sums it up best:

Poem by Martin Niemöller that was said to have been written in 1946.

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak out for me.
13

Mike S,

28/04/2008 10:23:32
#12 as you quoted "Councils are committed to putting local people first and will use every weapon in their arsenal to catch the rogue traders, doorstep criminals and scam artists who cheat the taxpayer and prey on the vulnerable and the elderly" What if the scam artists who cheat the elderly are the councils themselves?
14

Daibhidh,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 10:37:00
As someone who has used RIPA, I think concerns arem is-placed. Our society is full of dodger and scammer all of who cost the tax payer and society a great deal. These powers aren't simply used on a whim, authorisatino is requied from high-ranking management and clear codes of conducts are followed.

I'd far prerfer to know my council was tracking fly-tippers, social housing scammers, parents flouting ctachment areas, people dumping asbestos etc, than ditting with their hands tied while society's scum conned us all yet more...

If people can't behave within society, then we need powers to do something about it. Freedom and choice comes with responsiblity. Sadly everyone seems to want the freedom and choice, but claim no responsibility...
15

Daibhidh,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 10:37:44
#14 Mikey

"What if the scam artists who cheat the elderly are the councils themselves?" ...then they'll get done by the SPS Ombundsman...
16

Mikey,

28/04/2008 11:13:22
#13, Pastor Niemoller was dead weel before 1946, but I can see where you're coming from....
17

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 28/04/2008 11:16:29
Boy Wonder

I heartily agree with you. It is the POLITICIANS that should be surveilled because of their low reputation and sleazy carryings-on that hit the presses nearly every day.

The case of sex-addicted Lord Laidlaw is indicative of what depths men in power can devolve. Politicians are arrogant shysters and some of the female ones are no better.

Send them all to the Tower to cool their heels for a time at the "pleasure" of Her Britannic Majesty.

And to think that that woman has to endure weekly audiences with her prime ministers.

She should award herself the newly-minted "Order of Extreme Patience in Dealing With Stupid Politicians, Grand Cross To Bear".
18

Em,

28/04/2008 11:31:54
Daibhidh

You said "These powers aren't simply used on a whim"

What about the man who was slapped with a criminal record and a £225 fine simply for leaving the lid of his wheelie bin open 4 inches, proof that these powers ARE used on a whim.

There is something far wrong when you have council employees sneaking around with cameras trying to catch people out on such trivial matters, don't you think there are better things they could be doing with their time and our money.

http://www.artofthestate.co.uk/Banksy/banksy_brick_lane_dustbin_spy.htm
19

Tommy Trout,

Alicante, Spain 28/04/2008 12:12:29
#15 Daibhidh
Exactly what I mean in my previous comment. Who authorised you, and your kind, as police, judge and jury for everything you see as an infringement of your twisted sense of justice. You take the moral high ground on this matter, which is difficult to defend against, but bear in mind history is full of people who fully justified their actions in the process of subjigating other people who did not hold the same views as themselves. I only have to go go back to the recent Franco regime in Spain for examples.
And, please, please don't tell me it could never happen in the UK...it's happening now, your only too blind to recognize it, worse still you are condoning and supporting it.
20

Miss Pixie,

formerly of Dinleyhaughfoot Cottage, Roxburghshire 28/04/2008 12:14:14
The best way forward to instill proper social behavior is to begin with children and continue throughout their school years. Peer group pressure during these years works miracles!
21

Daibhidh,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 12:16:08
#19 Em

Firstly, it's as much MY money as it is yours...I pay tex too and therefore have as much of a right as anyone else in saying how it's spent...

That said, I agree that it probably wasn't a great use of the powers to catch someone out for having his wheelie bin open '4 inches' too much...however, these things are never as simple as they seem. It could be that he consistantly put too much in his bin and therefore cost the taxpayer in terms of us paying for unacceptable levels of rubbish to be processed...if rules are borken, they shoud be enforced...if not, why have them?!

It's also very easy for you to be pesemistic and point out one alleged misuse of the power, but how many countless times have the powers been used to good effecti n the public interest? Fall mroe than you'll know I'm afraid...

22

Daibhidh,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 12:20:25
#20 Mr Trout

Firstly, "Who authorised you, and your kind, as police, judge and jury for everything you see as an infringement of your twisted sense of justice."

Bizarely as this might sound to you, but I am authorised by various pieces of legislation to carry out my local government role. All of which give me leagal rights to access land and property and, under RIPA, monitor people (with correct authorisation) if requried. This allows me to carry out my public duty and raise prosecutions if required.

I am fully authorised, fully rained and fully monitored. Please do some research before mouthing off - you do yourselve an injustice...

And please don't try to compare events here over fly-tipping, illegal business and wheelie bin infringements with Franco's Spain. There are no similarities, despite what doom merchants like you may like to beleive. You only insult those of us with connection to Spain whose families had to live under those regimes.
23

Daibhidh,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 12:22:46
...oh, and it's not my 'twisted sense of justice'...it's council policy (adopted by elected me,bers) or government legislation...it's not something made up by me for a laugh...
24

should have gone to specsavers,

Thurso 28/04/2008 12:29:21
Mad Jock said:
> the poor German geriatric who was physically and
> brutally hauled out of the Labour Party conference a > few years ago for daring to raise his voice in

Yep, and Tony Blair, had the gall to say in response to the old mans protest "just be glad you live in a free country and you can!" *WHILE* the old man was being dragged away by flunkeys.
Tony Blair is probably getting along quite well with the politicians in the middle east... They probably admire him.
25

john z,

edinburgh 28/04/2008 12:33:40
#15

QUOTE : "If people can't behave within society, then we need powers to do something about it"

You actually sound like the east German stasi, can't you see that.

And frankly, in my opinion, most councillors are NOT the kind of people I would want spying on anybody, that is the job of the police and MI5.
26

john z,

edinburgh 28/04/2008 12:43:34
#23

I'm gonna call you out on your Franco comment. Anubody who suffered under Franco, would NEVER agree with your point of view. Go ask some real catalonians. Something which it is clear, you have no connection to. I think your claims are highly dubious to say the least. You probably don't even work for the council.
Can't you even see how brainwashed you are? Someone incorrectly fills their bin so you think you have the right to intercept their post, listen into all their private phone calls, and spy on them night and day. Who the hell do you and your ilk think you are?

I said it before, how long before people like you are sent to spy on those who object to the council using RIPA?
27

Tommy Trout,

Alicante, Spain 28/04/2008 13:16:57
#20 Daibhidh

I agree with you, the subject legislation is not of your making, but once again you seem more than happy to comply and implement orders..."I was just obeying orders",sound familiar? If you really want to understand where I'm coming from, give it a go living in a state controlled country. And why don't you get a real job if you really want to contribute to society and purse "criminals", join the police. While we're at it, I hope that when your filling in your fully authorized forms to spy on people you check your spelling.
28

Tommy Trout,

Alicante, Spain 28/04/2008 13:31:55
# 20 Daibhidh

Sorry, I forgot to ask. Does your employer know you are wasting tax payers money defending their Fourth Reich. Careful, they may take out a RIPA on you, but you being a strong defender of the faith I suspect you'll be writing up on yourself as we type!!!
29

Sassi,

28/04/2008 14:48:58
It's RIPSA in Scotland, not RIPA. Our local authority has received a Freedom of Information request recently asking how many times RIPA has been used - the answer is NONE, as per above, however, the request is being answered as if the (Scottish) requestor asked about RIPSA.
30

Cassandra,

28/04/2008 14:54:10
#23 Daibhidh - if you're really a council worker, why are you wasting our taxes spending time reading this and making comments?
31

,

28/04/2008 16:22:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
32

2Right,

On Location 28/04/2008 23:32:39
Try asking the Lord Advocate for pertinent documents for appeals in Scotland and see what the answer is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x11rHMJskY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebOQ8jhw-9g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqsMu0G-1rY

Dont be fooled by the videos though people are still asking for disclosure and being denied this, yet people within your coucil can spy on you.

A culture to hide their mistakes at all cost still exists within our legal establishment with Crown at the forefront


33

Motherwell Jambo,

Motherwell Gulag 29/04/2008 12:26:50
OK - as alluded to upstairs there exists RIPA and RIP(S)A, the former in its UK wide format and is used to listen in and record by police and 'spooks' etc. and is very necessary. RIPA and RIP(S)A in a local govt context is used for surveillance purposes and, believe it or not, it is difficult to obtain authorisation to undertake. The main thrust is twofold , to prevent or detect a crime and, just as importantly protect innocent bystanders from having their human rights infringed. Enforcing authorities have to provide evidence to someone very high up the tree that covert surveillance is appropriate and proportionate to what is expected to be uncovered. It is not a 'stasi charter'but an important law enforcement tool. I don't work for the police but can read the guidance documentation on-line. Get a grip!
34

Jessie Jones,

Scotland 30/04/2008 10:21:54
Hi,

A very misleading article I'm afraid... The RIPSA did not offer "the opportunity to carry out surveillance". The intention was to put in controls to ensure that any such surveillance was authorised and proportionate.

Clearly some issues have arisen (the bin example, although without full facts, it's difficult to comment), but these should be looked at individually, I do not believe it is a widespread problem.

I think a few people need to "take a chill pill" and stop making mountains out of molehills.

 

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