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Civil servants are paid thousands to travel to work after jobs relocation

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Published Date:
23 January 2007
Pubic workers relocated receive extra cash for travel to new workplaces Transport Scotland is paying £2,000 a week for travel for 57 staff Scottish Public Pensions Agency estimated to spend £92,000 extra on travel in 5 years

Key quote

"Although a number of staff will receive excess fares initially, this figure is likely to fall off significantly well before the cut-off period is reached. In the longer term, the social and economic benefits will justify the cost." Scottish Executive spokeswoman

HUNDREDS of civil servants are being paid extra to travel to work under the Executive's flagship relocation policy, it was revealed yesterday.

More than 3,000 workers have been relocated under the controversial scheme to move public-sector jobs out of the capital.

Under civil-service rules, however, they are entitled to receive extra cash for the excess cost in travelling to new locations for work.

Yesterday, it was revealed Transport Scotland, which has been moved from Edinburgh to Glasgow, was spending £2,000 a week on fares for 57 of its 250 staff to commute. Audit Scotland has estimated the Scottish Public Pensions Agency, which moved from Edinburgh to Galashiels, will spend more than £92,000 in excess fares over five years.

The Executive was unable to calculate the cost to some 30 other agencies forced to move, but it is expected to run to hundreds of thousands of pounds.

Civil servants whose commutes have increased because of moves are also taking advantage of flexible hours to include travelling time as part of the working day.

The Executive allows people to include working during the commute as long as they fulfil contracted hours and line managers agree.

Transport Scotland admitted this was a common phenomenon, with staff able to include time spent making phone calls or sending e-mails on the train as part of the working day.

Donna Reynolds, an employment lawyer with CCW, said employers who forced workers to relocate had to take travel into consideration and allow a degree of flexibility for the extra time spent commuting.

The Public Services and Commercial Union, which represents civil servants, said flexible working hours and excess fares were to be expected for relocation.

However, the union has called for a moratorium on all relocations, following concerns that workers are being forced to move against their will.

Audit Scotland, the public-spending watchdog, which has questioned the value for money of relocation, called on the Executive to provide figures on the cost of excess fares to assess the true cost of the official relocation policy.

A spokesman said: "There could well be a high cost of excess fares and we would like to see that looked for and monitored."

Fergus Ewing, the SNP MSP, said it was impossible to support the policy when specific costs could not be given.

The Scottish Executive said the number of workers being paid excess fares was in the low hundreds, as most relocations were too far away to commute, or were within a small distance.

A spokeswoman added: "Although a number of staff will receive excess fares initially, this figure is likely to fall off significantly well before the cut-off period is reached. In the longer term, the social and economic benefits will justify the cost."

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1

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

23/01/2007 01:13:58

Quote: Civil servants are paid thousands to travel to work after jobs relocation..................The whole thing was a farce from start to finish.....they are great at spending other peoples money on stupidity

2

Scaramouche,

23/01/2007 01:15:31

More wasted public money!

3

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta , California 23/01/2007 01:34:44

#1 & #2

How come you two show up on every thread?

Are you holographs that are programmed from fuzzy logic, controlled by the Scotsman?

Or you have nothing better to do with your time?

GC

4

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

23/01/2007 01:50:13

Comment@3 Galactic Cannibal, we live for commentators like you and your stimulating chat :)

5

,

23/01/2007 03:26:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

Mallory,

23/01/2007 05:20:01

Good point Archie (5) - over the HMCE.

7

Guga,

Rockall 23/01/2007 07:14:45

#5 Archie. Agreed. What other job allows you to include your travelling time as part of your working hours, as well as getting travelling expenses. The whole thing is a joke.

8

Son of Gramsci,

Embra 23/01/2007 07:15:24

#5 Archie
The point that the Transport Scotland workers are folk who were told that the jobs they were doing were suddenly moving from Edinburgh to Glasgow. This is clearly a disruption to their lives, and in compensation some of their travel time can be counted as work time - if they actually work on the train. This would clearly not be the case for a new worker who lived in Edinburgh and willingly applied for a job in Glasgow. It only applies to those folk who had their jobs move under them. And yes, hours worked on the train are just normal working hours, and taxable as such.

Incidentally, I believe that it is common practice for travel time, eg to a meeting, to count as working time. If I go to an essential two hour meeting in London, and travel for six or more hours to get there and back, it would be pretty unfair if my employer said that I had only worked for two hours that day.

9

RCG,

23/01/2007 07:17:52

All part of the same public sector cabal that is costing us millions year on year: Ill thought out PC idea -inept ministers - useless senior managers - labour controlled trade unions ( they are "good" at some things) -complacent opposition MSPs (until the damage has been done) - our money. It goes on and on.

But we need to call a halt to this, and much, much more.

10

Mapper,

Midlothian 23/01/2007 07:36:36

Who are these "Pubic workers" and why do they need to travel to new workplaces? (First bullet point)

11

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 23/01/2007 07:41:08

Typical public sector not living in the real world. Some reports on this yesterday said that some people were working as little as four hours per day with the rest of their day made up of travelling time! Also that travel expenses would be paid for five years.

Try getting away with that in the private sector.

12

Alfred Fresco,

out watching 23/01/2007 07:42:24

you might find that the SE has an arranagement whereby they pay the tax on this - and other things.

13

Martin 2,

Edinburgh 23/01/2007 07:43:32

I would not have a go at the "Civil Servants" - more likely public sector admin workers on salaries below most private sector levels. If you had a 3 hour round trip because of a change in politician's policy then if you could work some of this on a train then you would do it - this policy harms families and should be abandoned. It is the policy that is at fault not the people.

14

RCG,

23/01/2007 07:54:55

The biggest public sector jobs relocation the Scottish Executve could have committed to would have been to have put the Scottish Parliamet building anywhere but edinburgh - stirling woud have been my choice. This at a stroke could have said something real about relocation, and as all the jobs had still to be filled cost us nothing. Indeed it would have saved us money as we would have got good quality people for less anywhere outside central edinburgh.

And it woud not just have ben the 1000 plus parliament jobs either because the parliament would have acted as a magnet for thousands more, private sector, media, voluntary, lobbying organisatiosn etc. But this did not happen because the last thing senior mandirims wanted was to inconvenience themselves by going to Glasgow or elsewhere. It would disprupt their school run etc.

And remember how they literally fixed things for the temporary home to be in Edinburgh not Glasgow, despite Glasgow wining the initial bidding process hands down.

The ultimate result was the Holyrrood building and a huge missed opportunity. Instead we now have had a series of half baked and expensive piecemeal relocations iof marginal agencies such as Transport Scotland and Scottish Natural Heritage which have affected less senior grades, inconvenienced, demotivated them them and cost us all a fortune, and for not a lot of gain. And so rubbish are the senor mandirins they cant even manage the relocation without throwing loads of our money at it.

There you have it. Modern Scotland. The illusion of relocation costing us loads when we could have done it better for less than nothing if only the civil servantst had told the truth and the politicians made them. But a 10 year old child could have told you without a single consultant or award winning architect that a fancy buidling in central edinburg would be the most expensive way to do it, and also work 100% against your own jobs dispersal policy. But our experts told us it w

15

1745,

Edinburgh 23/01/2007 08:01:21

Can someone explain to me the reasoning behind moving jobs out of Edinburgh?
Is the over proportionate number of West Coast MSP's a factor??
Let's have a brand new Scottish Parliament next time NOT a bunch of idiots who could cetainly not hold down a job in the private sector.

16

WBB,

Perth, WA 23/01/2007 08:25:08

Reasons could include to promote regeneration in another part of the country, taking departments out knowing that any jobs created in the future would hopefully be filled by the locals in the new location, to ensure a location that costs less to run in the long run, the reduction in volumes of people having to fight through the congestion to get to a central location etc.

It could even be, and this is cynical, to get a hold of the land in central Edinburgh to sell via a consortium that make a fat profit. Tish tish surely if must be for a genuine reason.

17

Old Roy,

Black Isle 23/01/2007 08:26:04

Five per cent of the public sector are among the hardest working people in Scotland, they have to be as the rest do damn all.
Further, I want the same pay and conditions as the public sector including early retirement and an index linked pension, I am helping to pay for this so why not me.

18

paulr,

23/01/2007 08:31:58

"Civil service rules"
that about says it all!!

19

Hadtosay,

City. 23/01/2007 08:32:00

And the reason for the relocations is because Jack McConnell wants to get the people of the West’s votes! So all the SE workers that cannot relocate lose out on jobs, and have to find a job elsewhere. Who wants a 45 Year old policy worker!!!! Put Jack McConnell into Google and see who he is really working for – not the City..

20

rpb,

Up North 23/01/2007 08:32:32

17. The jobs were moved for a number of reasons, primarily that ' the WHOLE of Scotland should share in the benefits(?) of devolution.'

However, that only means moving out Edinburgh jobs; not the 1000s employed in say, the west of Scotland.

Jack McConnell in a lecture to Edinburgh Chamber of Commerce justified this by explaining that Edinburgh's economy was being hampered by public sector jobs, therefore they should be moved elsewhere.
However, he did not use the same logic to explain that it was therefore bad for Glasgow to have public sector jobs.

For the whole of Scotland to benefit means basically millions of pounds being used to ship 1000s of jobs 40 miles west at the whole of Scotland's expense.

I understand that this has helped fill up Glasgow's empty office space.

I can only conclude that Glasgow's economy is in dire straits therefore all efforts are being made at Scotland's taxpayers' expense to ship as many jobs as possible to the labour heartlands, as there is also the fear of losing power to the SNP.

Have Labour in all this hype about the benefits allowed the displaced families to have a voice? I think not. But their votes would seem to count for less than the political gains of forced job relocation.

21

Massive,

Edinburgh 23/01/2007 08:33:51

As a Civil Servant of 33 years standing, I'm fed up being slagged off as someone who gets paid for doing nothing. All I see are headlines about civil servants and tax inspectors getting big salaries and big bonuses - if only!!
I certainly don't get any big bonuses or a fat salary. Our beloved lords and masters told us this year that we were to come into line with the private sector, so we were not to be given any time off to have a Christmas lunch. They, unfortunately, forgot that private sector staff get other benefits like; a staff party or lunch paid for by the compny; a Christmas bonus if you make good profits for them; a discount on your purchases if you work in a store. What do we get - zilch.
Now, to add insult to injury, they are relocating offices, so that staff have to travel long distances just to keep their job. They are getting rid of 12,500 staff by 2008 and another 12.500 by 2011 (in my department alone) and all the small local offices will close.There will be no fat redundancy packages, only approved early retirement for those over fifty. If you don't want to or can't move to the job they tell you to take, the alternative is "byebye".
I currently look after several offices scattered around Scotland and am expected to provide excellant support to very demoralised staff and customers. At the same time, I'm being told that I am likely to lose my job and will have to apply for another one or be forced to take whatever they offer me.
Not much of a reward for all these years of service. No, being a civil servant is not a cushie ride for which you get over paid.

22

Steve99,

Sitting on the loo 23/01/2007 08:46:18

I frequently (to my wife's annoyance) take business reports to the loo to read. Peace and quiet (?) is ideal for catching up on some of the crap you need to go through.

I am sure the civil servants' union could make a case for adding this time to their working day, on top of the train journey. How long per day though?

Answers to Jack McConnell please on a sheet or 2 of toilet paper please. Used? The choice is yours.

23

Captain Fantastic,

Glasgow, UK 23/01/2007 08:48:24

#5 I'm going to the the south-west of England tomorrow to do a small job for a client. It will take me best part of a day to drive there, stay overnight, do the job - estimated five hours, then drive back to Glasgow. So I should only charge my client five hours? I don't think so. Two days plus expenses. If my employer (hypothetical, since I'm my own boss) forced me to move to another part of the country, then I too would be looking for some compensation. But work on the train between Glasgow and Edinburgh at peak time? (if you can get a seat) - pull the other one!

24

Steve99,

It is just a way of cheating the tax man! 23/01/2007 08:53:05

The story is one of tax fiddling.

Work in Edinbuirgh, asked to move to Glasgow? 'But it will cost me more to travel there every day'. We can't pay you to travel to 'your place of business'.

OK, why not count it as working time? I will carry my mobile with me at all times!

I hope they have to record EVERY bit of work they do in transit, so Gordon Browns hoodlums can check it out, just as they do with car business mileage.

Even better, this approach will create another 5000 civil service jobs.

It is what is known as a win - win. Oh, except for us poor fools who have to pay for it.

25

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/01/2007 08:58:09

Hang on, it's not as if it's actually your money they are getting paid. It's a budget we recieve from Westminster gained through UK wide taxation, EU subs and revenue from whatever resources.

What would you rather have? That money sitting in the hands of the Executive who would then sqaunder it on studies to see if there is a link between poverty and child abuse (i.e. re-inventing the wheel) or would you rather that the money is given to workers who then give it to rail and bus comapnies who then give it to employees, contractors and suppliers who then give it to petrol stations, supermarkets and corners shops and generally make the wheels of commerce slowly turn?

Come on now, see the bigger picture and stop griping. I know plenty of private sector workers and self employed that either charge thier clients travel time/expenses or get a paid for company car.

26

WBB,

Perth, WA 23/01/2007 09:01:44

# 23
"so we were not to be given any time off to have a Christmas lunch"

The inferenece there is that previously you were given time off for Christmas lunches. Ok so that is 33 years x 3 hours, (2 for the lunch and 30 minutes travelling time each way to the venue), ok so that's 99 hours you are due the public purse. I could keep going but it would be too easy to score more direct hits.

Stop whinging and get on with it. You are one of the lucky ones. Full time employment for 33 years. You should visit a coal mining, fishing or steel town and see the devastation mate. There are people in Scotland still reeling from the effects of long term unemployment in these areas. Put on top of that some poor soul on a single income etc etc etc....

Nah whats the point. Your fed up of being slagged off? You want to get a life.

27

Moobsy,

The Gravy Train 23/01/2007 09:04:10

Are Transport Scotland the people responsible for the utter chaos created in and around edinburgh and the Lothians with the latest outbreak of blocking off roads with traffic cones under the guise that roadworks might appear there one day?

Only in the public sector could you get away with this nonsense. If my employer moved location I'd be told I could continue to work with the company in the new location, at the same salary, for the same hours and if I didin't like it I could find a new employer.

Could someone tell me where to pop my CV off to for one of these cushy little numbers?

28

M & S loyal,

Lochwinnoch 23/01/2007 09:06:00

Makes a change from civil servants being paid thousands for doing nothing.

29

Hadtosay,

City. 23/01/2007 09:09:15

Good point Dave From Barra - #27.

30

Antonine Plato,

Glasgow 23/01/2007 09:12:58

http://platosway.blogspot.com

Another blow is struck for the government's army of part timers!

I wouldn't mind things like this if they weren't already a bunch of part timers anyway.

I've always thought that public services should be provided during hours when the public can access them.

I love it when you see that the local parking ticket office hours are 9-12 and 2-4. Between that and flexitime, it must be a rough old life for these people!

31

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/01/2007 09:13:18

When Tesco closed their depot in Dundee, they offered all their employees the opportuinity to be employed in another Tescos and they would cover the cost of transportation.

32

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/01/2007 09:14:28

What would you rather the Executive do with the money then? I refer you to #27.

33

Citylocal Fife,

North of the bridge and right of(f) Jack McConnell 23/01/2007 09:17:54

I think this applies to more sectors than most people imagine. I am sure that 'bank' nursing staff who are peripatetic by the very nature of their employment, start their clock when they leave their house, and don't stop it until they return. Many of them spend 3 hours a day travelling, for which they are (rightly) fully paid.

I have no problem with this, however I am not impressed with 'Jack' and his tinkering, which in the main, is the root cause of these sorts of problems, and in the instance above is bleeding the NHS of funds through abysmal planning.

It's all kick and rush, tax and squander. We need a new government with clear policies and the ability to do joined up thinking. I wonder what package of relocation 'funding' Jack will get commencing May 04th, as he'll certainly be on the move then.

34

Privateman,

East Lothian 23/01/2007 09:19:40

Small point Moobsy #29, if your employer said that to you and you could not or were not prepared to move, you'd be entitled to a claim for redundancy. So if your employer sacked you, that would be unfair dismissal. It's all not Dickensian employment law in the private sector and featherbedding in the public sector.

35

S Hamilton,

Embra 23/01/2007 09:39:36

Despite all the anti civil servant ranting going on here, it's actually reasonably normal practice as it has applied to me in both public and private sector over the years. It's also been in most public sector employees contracts since year dot, and has been used ever since.

When I worked in Westminster, some of my staff were transferred to Bristol. And their transport costs were paid for the first 2 years, to allow them time to sell their houses, buy new houses, allow their partners time to find new jobs, look for new schools for their kids etc etc etc. Again, that was part of the UK governments 'dispersal' plans.

Most of them were admin staff earning shockingly low wages, and I never begrudged them a penny. Oddly, the senior civil servants found a 'business reason' for remaining in London, as they had to be 'close to Ministers'. Wonder how many in the Exec pulled that one.

36

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/01/2007 09:42:30

I don't hear much gripe about the cost of relocating the armed forces nor police officers. As it happens, the civil service is just another arm of the "services" and the employer (in the case, the Executive) reserves the right to move staff at thier discretion. That means the staff, at any given time, could be told to relocate to some other area of Scotland, away from friends, family and other social activities they were previously engaged in.

In order to compensate these people for having no location security or permanancy, the Executive pay out. Speaking as a former bootneck who wasshifted all over the UK and beyond, to get a little extra "sub" helps with the general upheaval of relocating to another palce, time and time again.

Give these people a break.

37

Gordon,

Edinburgh 23/01/2007 09:42:47

This shows Labour's green credentials.

What it doesn't show is that the new locations are so much cheaper than Edinburgh, the extra travel only slightly dents the savings on office rent.

38

God Bless you Mary Poppins,

23/01/2007 09:50:51

Galashiels need the work, lets face it.

I can understand paying travel expenses short term but paying it as work time will only encourage people to stay rather than work going to locals.

This is an old and tested ploy (See Abbey/Scottish Provident move to GLasgow).

The whole idea is to make people redundant by putting the stress of travel on them, and filing the remaining post with cheaper, local alternatives.

Or at least , that SHOULD be the plan..

39

Gordon,

Edinburgh 23/01/2007 09:58:53

#42 - I wonder if NCR offere their staff the same deal?

40

Elidor,

23/01/2007 10:00:58

#22 rpb

Not sure what you mean by

"However, that only means moving out Edinburgh jobs; not the 1000s employed in say, the west of Scotland."

The Scottish Executive/Scottish Office has never employed 1000s in the West of Scotland. These jobs have always been concentrated in Edinburgh with a few offices located elsewhere, hence the reason for the relocation. A good idea badly implemented.

One reason I can think of for the policy being criticised above would be that the staff involved would have experience and knowledge, and paying them off would have meant taking on a huge number of inexperienced staff. No department can run effectively under those circumstances. It just doesn't work. Also, if these staff weren't prepared to relocate, paying them off would cost a huge amount and you would still be left with the problem of re-staffin the department.

Once solution to these problems is privatisation, but only once this happens do people realise the quality of the service they have lost. Civil Service departments generally perform well when benchmarked against private outfits, and that's why wholesale privatisation of the service never took off. Companies know they wouldn't be able to deliver the same service on budget. Mind you, Group 4 and Securicor have been a roaring success...

41

.,

23/01/2007 10:02:47

#5 Archie, you don't know a job in the known universe where travelling can't be charged?

What about audit? It's common practice in this industry to charge travel time to clients.
There you go, now you're a little better informed.


Won't serve you well on here though, it's more likely that the commentators know nothing about what they're talking about.
Much like the journalists that write the stories actually.

42

God Bless you Mary Poppins,

23/01/2007 10:05:43

5

45

Plumbers. They charge for everything.

43

stmonan,

23/01/2007 10:07:59

I don't like to see public money wasted but if my employer decided to move me between Glasgow and Edinburgh for no obvious reason, I would not expect that to increase my expense or extend my working day.

But I'd be interested to see if Transport Scotland still thinks our public transport is anything other than a joke after a few months of the Waverley-Queen Street commute. Serves them right.....

44

Rob me blind,

23/01/2007 10:12:16

Why has this come as a surprise this has always been the case as is the point of maintaining their current salary even if the job they are doing disappears. All these factors should have been costed into to the overall cost of any relocation and if it hasnt then that is a newsworthy item.

45

.,

23/01/2007 10:12:34

#44, I don't think it serves too well comparing the public sector to private, as generally the public sector operates where the private sector doesn't as it's not profitable.

You can try, but if you want to look at healthcare, then you'll find that the private hospitals are more cost effective as they don't have to pay to train their staff, the public sector does that for them.
They can also choose to neglect the sickest (and therefore most expensive) patients.
If you look at Edinburgh, the Murrayfield Hospital makes use of NHS intensive care facilities.
All the public sector bashers can ask themselves this...
If you're sick enough to require emergency surgery, where would you rather be, the hospital where you are a 50 yard dash along the corridor to ICU, or the one a 5 minute ambulance ride away? (Aside from the fact that a private hospital wouldn't touch emegency surgery in the first place!)

The private sector has the luxury of cherry picking the most cost effective options, the public sector doesn't.
If the public sector is wasting so much money, why doesn't the private sector step in and make a killing?

46

Blindscout,

Fife 23/01/2007 10:13:39

Don't forget that "excess travel expenses" due to re-location is only paid for a limited time, to give the employee time to find new accomodation in the new location. If on purchasing, the new property costs more, he/she can then claim "excess rent" to make up the difference, again, for a limited time.

One was expected to move to a similar size home, but then there are 3 bedroom houses and 3 bedroom houses, and then the area liven in could also improve, ie moving nearer the city centre from the countryside, or viki-verky, to improve ones 'lifestyle'.

It was common for staff who had to move, to move to a larger more expensive property, and have the additional 'rent' or mortgage payments paid for them, albeit for 5 years, when hopefuly their wages would increase to cover the additional costs.

47

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/01/2007 10:13:43

NCR is an American company and therefore American working regulations are applied.

48

Paddi,

23/01/2007 10:14:43

This is a fine example of the gravy train at work. All aboard for the public sector freeloaders.

25% of all employment here is via the public sector, we need less and more wealth generation not paper pushers.

49

Jockyw,

23/01/2007 10:16:22

We saw this coming - Are we surprised at this public sectors waste of good money that should be put to better use.

It makes paying for a terrible service questionable.

50

Jimmy Deuchars,

Glasgow 23/01/2007 10:16:31

It is amazing how the governments cosr cutting exercices never affects them.

51

Duncan,

Scotland free of bigots and onions. 23/01/2007 10:23:11

The bureaucrats in this country are holding us to ransom. They and their political masters are worse than benefits scroungers. They are nasty greedy vindictive and the last bastion of restrictive practise.
The civil service should be privatised these bloody Humphreys have had it to good for to long.

52

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/01/2007 10:23:34

What better use of this money is there than circulating it back into the economy? I refer you to #27.

53

.,

23/01/2007 10:30:04

#51,
Dave, are you suggesting that NCR is operating contrary to UK and EU law?
Utter nonsense.

54

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/01/2007 10:32:00

./

NCR is American soil. Yes they operate contrary. It is evident by the stooshie in the news.

My brother used to work for them, the contract was an American styled employment contract.

55

Paddi,

23/01/2007 10:40:20

DfB, any economist knows that this is a zero sum game. Create wealth and the economy grows at a faster rate than simply having 1970's socialist economics foisted upon us, where the state props things up. It doesn’t work, either here nor in Russia nor in China, the only place it works is in N Korea which is the way this country will go if we continue to crowd out private initiatives at the expense of public servants who create NOTHING.

I have to pick you up also on point 51, irrespective of ownership a company trading in the UK has to abide by UK employment laws and not laws of the owners country. It may well be a US style contract but it still has to comply with our laws not solely there’s.

56

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/01/2007 10:48:38

Paddi

I am not disagreeing that we need wealth creation but I will argue I'd rather see the Executives money go toward the people/workers than mindless projects, quangos and steering groups.

As for the emplyoment laws. I can assure you the Americans will ride rough shod with their employers and my brother has already been caught out by them. It was too expensive to hire a solicitor to fight the cause and by the time "UK" employment laws and tribunerals were willing to look at it, they had scarpered (an American company in Greenock).

Silicon valley has gone t*ts up and left some very unhappy people. Several electronic factories in and around Fife have scarpered too. In the main, American owned companies.

57

RCG,

23/01/2007 10:51:38

Dave from barra, re your post#27 and subsequenst posts.

What is your point - because the Executive is inherently inefficient and wasteful we should give up complaining?

I agree with others, including some civil servants themselves, that our target shoud not be people on 30k a year of less making the most of the additional benefits on offer - they never asked to be relocated. And what would we all do in the same circumstances? The problem is the senior mandirins and their complacent political masters.

But dont be so defensive civil servants ( I was one once). You all know the level of inefficiency out there. Help us expose it and we wouldn;t mind giving you a good pay rise in return for some genuine output and efficiency.

And many civil servants do work hard but even some of them achieve in output terms almost nothing, because of the system and the tasks they are set - covering up other people's errors or involved in some useless survey or pilot project which just tells us what we already know, etc. Liberate yourselves and Scotland with it.

58

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/01/2007 10:57:00

Yes RCG, ok. Sure son.

If you haven't got the point yet, stop reading.

How do you know the Executive in inefficient and wasteful? Can you cite some examples?

59

TheGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 23/01/2007 10:57:57

'Civil servants whose commutes have increased because of moves are also taking advantage of flexible hours to include travelling time as part of the working day'
This is a disgrace. This could never happen in the private sector but yet again our civil servants show they are true masters at taking the p1ss.
If my firm had to relocate (for whatever reason), I'd either have to like it or lump it. I'd get no fares paid and I 'd certainly not be allowed to include any travelling time as part of my working day.
I despise these molly coddled spongers - they are no better than our long term benefit claimants.

60

Rogerwilco,

23/01/2007 11:04:43

Our badly needed civil servants are entitled to this recompense, after all they do a great job of keeping all you pleps happy with your free handouts every week ( dole, sickness benefit, disabled living allowance etc)
Just be grateful that they are doing such a sterling job on your behalf.

61

Robin,

23/01/2007 11:08:14

There are at least 2 relevant points to this matter.
1.
These civil sevants were asked to relocate, - they did not ask, - so I agree that some form of allowance for travel be paid.
But only for a limited period!!
2.
Travel to and from your place of work is NOT a non-taxable expense.
So who's picking up the tax for this travel money????

62

Robin,

23/01/2007 11:13:10

64,
'pleps' are we.
What a load of rubbish you spout.
Getting benefits from them is like getting blood from a stone.
I have personal experience as well, - not dole or sickness money but disability living allowance, and was made to feel like a CRIMINAL by these parasites.
You would think that it was their money.
I worked all my life and paid my dues and now I am treated like muck.
Get f...... real.

63

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/01/2007 11:18:29

It is only for a limited period Robin. 5 years is the maximum allowable.

Good comments though.

64

Scotswahey,

23/01/2007 11:28:35

Fair enough to compensate workers for out of pocket expenses e.g. rail fares or whatever for a limited period - I work for a privatised utility and we get it over 3 years simply because it used to exist when we, like the civil service were a fat, overmanned orgainsation which existed mainly for the benefit of the many people employed there.

To claim that whilst on the train these employees are working is a nonsense. Its to minimise disruption and sweeten the pill.

I think anyone out there who is or knows a civil servant cuold rightfully be pssed off at their terms and conditions. They bang on about having private sector benefits e.g. company cars whilst retaining civil service levels of performance which are widely accepted to be lower than the private sector.

The exec will continue to court these people as they keep the lefties in power in order to protect their cushy numbers and cracking pensions.

Or perhaps its a ploy to make the trains look better utilised. e.g. - wee Joke "how do we get more bums on seats on public transport" !! Consultant - "move the jobs of people who live in Edinburgh to Glesga "" That should do the trick" !

65

RCG,

23/01/2007 11:45:16

Dave from Barra#62

You ask me "How do you know the Executive in inefficient and wasteful? Can you cite some examples?" Yes lots - try the dozen or so links to stories of this very nature on the top right hand side of this web page for starters. So why do I need to give you more when you appear to be illiterate?

Do you even read newspapers or just waste everybody else's time posting drivel to these forums?

66

ACM,

Glasgow 23/01/2007 11:47:03

So much for trying to reduce carbon emissions. Even travelling by the most efficient means still requires energy to transport them and therefore increased carbon emissions whether from the production of electricityor the burnignof fossil fuels.

67

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/01/2007 11:55:31

RCG

You still haven't given any examples. Moronic small brained person.

68

Billy,

Germany 23/01/2007 12:04:33

I hope the English civil service goes bonkers when they hear this . And what of "Mr Great Economy", Gordon Brown
himself, does anyone think he approves of this measure. The only positive aspect is that our southern neighbours must be sick to the back teeth
at the amont of money going up in smoke under this "Commite for Scottish affairs" we call the executive( Stop sniggering at the back), we will be heading for independence , wether we like it or not,
before we bankrupt the whole of the UK.

69

RCG,

23/01/2007 12:20:56

Dave from Barra#71

I will try again, but will keep it brief as you have obviously have difficulty with reading, followig web hyperlinks, using search engines and also with civil discourse:

£2bn or a teachers pay settlement, with by their own inspectors’ admission of no measurable results

£700 million on the new consultants’ contact with no measurable results, indeed a public admission “we paid to much” by the Chief Executive of the NHS in Scotland - only yesterday

A Scottish Executive staff survey ( leaked yesterday) which show two thirds of Scottish Executive staff thought the Executive wasted money

6 Years in the Civil Service in Scotland, ending last year, where I saw it all and more

£500 million on a parliament building - a parliament project only in theory all lead by Executive appointed officials and consultants.

Need I go on?

What is your point? is it just that you just a slow learner?

70

Paddi,

23/01/2007 12:27:54

#73 HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA, well said

71

MadJockMacMad,

Edinburgh 23/01/2007 12:33:30

This is a non story
When jobs are relocated, it is common practice in private as well as the public sector to provide some form of assistance to staff being relocated.
This assistance is taxable and liable to nation insurance contributions.
Remember, these people didn't ask for their jobs to be moved, that was a politcal decision.

72

Scotty,

Edinburgh 23/01/2007 12:34:05

I work for the SE.
However, before that I worked for a DWP agency in Brighton. Our office was closed as a 'money saving excercise and staff relocated to Chichester, an hour away.
We were paid travel and given travelling time (2hrs per day @ min £10 and hour) for two years.

The cost of this was over £100,000

The office closure savings...£82,000.

Make sense of that, if you will

tbh, the SE is one of the most efficent govt depts, but that's not saying much.

73

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/01/2007 12:34:58

Well RCG/moronic small brained person

If, after all my commentingm you still haven't got my point, then perhaps the £2billion spent on teachers was actually wasted on your own education (I'm assuming you are around 10).

Like I said before, what's wrong with dishing out this money to the people/workers for them to put into the economy themselves by way of buying goods and services instead of the Executive hoarding or sqaundering the money?

Paddi

You are a class A numtpy.

74

RAVIS,

the borders 23/01/2007 12:37:47

sorry but i have never heard such crap as the rubbish people are spouting here. I have the misfortune to be a civil servant, have been for the better part of ten years - and only because i cant find other work.

the point is this - many people seem to like to make out that civil servants are there merely to earn huge amounts of money for doing next to nothing. this is simply not the case. as a middle administrator on a benefit, which at least 25% of the posters probably recieve, i am expected to process benefit work, cover a helpline, assist senior managers making decisions - all for a whopping 14.5k a year. my wages tend to increase by about 35 quid a month once a year, which is meant to take into account all inflation rises and provide me with a reason for staying. my wife, who works in the nhs as an administrator, has not had a payrise for the past five years. we have essentially seen a drop in our wages of 14%. we get no fringe benefits, any flexi time has to be made up, so in reality few civil servants can take much advantage of this. we have decrepit computer systems, worthless management and are continually pushed neaer the door. frankly, those that slag off civil servants may as well slag off the local newsagent, becuase on the earning scale we are about equal.

75

Paddi,

23/01/2007 12:43:46

your problem dfb is that, like most bullies you love to dish it out, yet when you're on the receiving end you throw the toys out the pram.

Just keep quiet and take it like the wee man you are.

76

Booby Action,

23/01/2007 12:46:41

It's a good idea, gets people in the right place for the right job.

Where would our parliment be if the MSP's could not get travel expenses ???

77

Marlene,

Stevenage/ Ex Dundee 23/01/2007 12:47:58

Who is to be held accountable for this gross waste of taxpayers money? Why are we sitting around discussing it on a website when we should be demanding that heads roll. This is our money they are squandering, and will continue to squander until they are made to be responsible to us.

I can think of many lovely ways to spend my money instead of paying tax!!!! So if it is not needed pay it back.

78

Heather B,

23/01/2007 12:48:05

It's unbelievable that some people are being paid money that is entitled to them. When will Tony Blair or John Reid stop worrying about this terrorism nonsense and fly around the country with a big stick beating those responsible?

Mmm? When? I doubt we'll see that happening.

79

Scotswahey,

23/01/2007 12:48:06

Sorry Dave from Barra - you normally make a lot of sense but you appear to be loosing this arguement.

Surely by pumping money into the NHS, cooncils and at teachers the following repercussions arise....

Above RPI awards to these groups affects not only them but others who seek similar pay increases thereby driving inflation up through wage pull dynamics.

The costs of provision of these services is forever higher than it needs be therefore depriving other areas such as tax cuts, investment in advertsing campaigns (oops) or other worthwhile causes.

High wages in the public service deprives the wealth creating private sector which pays for it all of the intellect it desreves and needs to flourish.

You are more intelligent than this - let it go.

80

RCG,

23/01/2007 13:06:23

Dave from Barra#76

I surrender to your intellect. I am indeed only 10 years old with a very small brain and now have to go back to school after my diner. But more than a match for you.

I’ll leave it to others to humanely finish you off.

And most people I have met from Barra to date have been nice. I pity them having to live on the same island as you. Are you so anal in the pub?

81

FedUpTaxPayer,

23/01/2007 13:06:51

Who could possibly have foreseen that this would be another exercise in wasting cash... After all, this government have been so good at getting good value (both national and in Scotland) ... Scottish parliament building, olympics, consultant salaries, NHS reforms, care for the elderly... all far more expensive than originally estimated.

I wonder if they have they actually delivered anything on time, on budget...

82

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/01/2007 13:15:12

RCG

No no, you are right. I apologies. The SE should make savings wherever possible and return the cash back to the treasurer at the end of the financial year and the reciprocating amount be deducted from next years budget.

And under no circumstances should they actually divi out the money to anybody in Scotland by way of excess fares, relocation expenses and payrises. The same should also be done for the armed services and police to make extar savings.

After all, only 1 in three people in Scotland are employed by way of public money.

83

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/01/2007 13:18:49

RCG

As a small additional. Most people I have met from your neck of the woods have been arseholes. I know you haven't stated where you are from but as you represent them, I can only assume that they are like you. As for others to finish me off humanely? Aye sure, there are as many for as against here.

84

JimboMan,

Edinburgh 23/01/2007 13:20:56

It's hard to believe how stupid the Labour led Scottish Executive are, its time they were dumped and a someone else given a shot that can govern Scotland with some common sense.

Stop the stupid job relocation policy now!!!!!!!!!!!!

85

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/01/2007 13:23:15

Scotwahay

Point taken. I'm leaving it alone now. ;-)

86

John21,

Northampton 23/01/2007 13:32:45

The Public Sector is paid from taxes raised in a variety of ways but mainly through taxation of Companies and individuals directly and indirectly.

The larger the Public Sector then the more taxes have to be gathered.

A company like NCR has to factor in taxation to the cost of its products which are sold worldwide. So if taxes are higher the manufacturing location is less attractive though this is not the only factor.
NCR will pay corporation tax, VAT and pay wages that, after the deduction of income tax, are sufficient to attract and retain the quality of workforce it requires. If income tax was not so high then lower wages could be paid but the employee would be no worse off.

The Public Sector nearly always operates as a monopoly supplier. Consumers cannot go to alternative providers of services. The Public Sector has no need to be efficient because people cannot take their business elsewhere. Nor can the Public Sector go bust the way an inefficient private company would.

It is easy for the politicians and Civil Servants to cry crocodile tears for the workers at NCR but the money that they waste through feather bedding the bloated Public Sector and their general largesse means that Scotland and the other parts of the UK become more and more uncompetitive.
Countless other things like in Scotland paying £148 million per annum for Legal Aid are breaking the Camel's back.

87

RCG,

23/01/2007 13:39:29

Dave for Barra#88

I am from Falkirk, Scotland.

I think I at last see the point you are trying to make. You fear that by being efficient the Scottish Executive would save money and we'd have to give it all back to the treasury. Maybe you should start a campaign for them to waste even more, and we'd get more treasury money, pump priming the economy through enhanced consumer spending in the process. What a briliant idea. You shoud patent it - I think though it's called Keynsianism, RIP circa 1965.

I have a devious alternative plan. The Executive could spend the moeny saved by efficiencies and cutting perks on improving services, restoring student grants, fully funding personal care for the elderly, increasing central support to councils to help them cut council tax. Probablya few more ideas as well.....

So I hope your fears have been answered.

And, by the way, most people I meet, in Falkirk, the mainlaind and the islands are not assholes. Just a few, normally in cyberpace where annonimoty allows them to be rude and stupid without too much damage being done.

Better go now, my P4 teacher is getting annoyed

88

BillyB,

23/01/2007 13:49:48

Great stuff RGC. I havn't laughed as much for ages.

I go to Barra every year and the people there are fine. I think the dave guy is an imposter from morningside.

89

James Donald,

Edinburgh 23/01/2007 13:50:32

Latest news for Civil Service bashers (yes striker will be docked a days pay);
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6290679.stm

90

DLD,

gorgie 23/01/2007 14:02:58

i'm a civil sevant and i dont get paid travel time unless its on the weekend. i agree that senior civil servants get paid far too much but the average joe like me gets crap money. the only thing this job is good for is the holidays! I'm not going on strike next week either. will the government listen? i doubt it

91

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/01/2007 14:17:39

Finally RCG you are getting my point. Thank goodness!

Very good of you to suggest that the SE pump even more money into all the things they have already pumped money into, glad you are now on my side and the side of the 1 in 3 public service staff in Scotland dependant on public money as the private sector has been ground down and continues to come to a halt i.e. silicon valley, NRC etc which have also benefited from massive public subsidies from the SE.

Phew, thought I had lost you there.

BTY most folks I have met from Falkirk were complete nutters but that was during my army days but I did call them my comrades during active service and they were tanacious and brave to the point foolhardy.

BillyB, nope I'm a Barrach born and bred but if I was to live anywhere in Edinburgh, I'd choose Comley bank rather than Morningside.

92

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/01/2007 14:44:51

1. 250,000 Jobs Created in Scotland
Over the past 20 years, 250,000 jobs have been created in Scotland, according to a report (based on official data) produced by the Bank of Scotland's economic department. But there have been major shifts in the nature of employment over that period, with the number working in business services (such as information technology and accountancy) rising by over 100,000, but with a decline in those working in manufacturing. Over 80% of Scottish employees are in the service industries, with major falls in manufacturing (down by 43%), mining (falling 34%) and agriculture (decreasing by 9%). Financial services have seen the number of staff rising by 65%, over the last 20 years.

http://www.rampantscotland.com/let050910.htm

93

john the lad,

canada 23/01/2007 14:54:05

And you people think you can survive with these same politicians running a free Scotland. They should have been offerd to move with the job or be bought out.
It seems that the monkeys are running the zoo

94

Kiwiabroad,

Mid East 23/01/2007 15:09:24

DFB /RCG - you boys both belong in the playground!
Pleas stop it now you naughty, naughty boys....

Yes, CS are poorly paid (except the higher ups) and yet they still manage to provide good service. They might be pushing it with their travel time but generally the CS is still one of the top public services in the world with little or no corruption to speak of.

I would say that poster No 77 is more typical of the hard working, poorly rewarded public servants. Good on you RAVIS for sticking it, hang in there.

95

Moder8,

Scotland 23/01/2007 15:40:41

Another of Jokes bright ideas has backfired. He did not think through the true cost of his relocation mission. We as usual will have to pick up the tab.
How long will the productive worker - one that makes goods to sell - be able to support the cost of this "government" with its top heavy and increasing non productive work force.
It's interesting to note Joke got rid of Wendy and Susan who were seen as a threat because of their effrontery to question him ( I know Wendy is back but with a different remit)

96

citizen taxpayer,

scotland 23/01/2007 15:59:49

A total waste of tax payers money.

Why are they paying pen pushers to travel to Glasgow. Its not as if its an unreasonable or long commute and there's no reason at all for the civil service to pay relocation expenses over and above other organisations.

They love to spend tax payers money on waste in the public sector. Its about time the MP's spent a little more time and attention on the size of the public sector in Scotland.

Heck its full to over flowing and carry on like this and Scotland will be bankrupt!

97

citizen taxpayer,

scotland 23/01/2007 16:09:01

"As a Civil Servant of 33 years standing, I'm fed up being slagged off as someone who gets paid for doing nothing. All I see are headlines about civil servants and tax inspectors getting big salaries and big bonuses - if only!!
I certainly don't get any big bonuses or a fat salary."

Wake up and smell the coffee. You've had a comfortable job with total security and the best pension scheme possible for 33 years.

Tell me where you would get that in the private sector.

Your salaries are comparable with the private sector.

For the past 5 years your % increases have been considerably higher.

You are unaffected by huge change and the challenges of market and a short hop from Edinburgh to Glasgow won't kill anyone.

If you don't like it there shut up moaning and go get a real job!

98

James Donald,

Edinburgh 23/01/2007 16:42:20

#103. citizen taxpayer - your sweeping generalisations do not ring true to many who work in the Civil Service. If things are so tough in the private sector why are these talented people not clamouring to get on the Civil Service fast track?

99

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 23/01/2007 17:41:37

Godamm Dave! You've just been having one of those days today!

Anyways, we've had civil servants ever since there was civils in an number. They are a necessary to account for everything and lets be honest and as somebody has said before, we are probably the world leaders in civil service (and judging by comments from abroad too). Without them, this country would turn to chaos.

I for one don't grudge a "wee bung" to these people who did NOT ask to relocate to Glasgow and it's also taxable. I'm sure, if you aksed any of them, civil service would not have been a first career choice.

100

Donner K,

23/01/2007 18:50:25

For heaven's sake these poor, underpaid, overworked people have a job for life - regardless of their performance - and many of them automatically get an "honour" thrown in along the way. If they don't want to relocate, they simply ask for a transfer to a different department. Do the police, armed forces, banks and millions of other employees have the same security and choice?

Fine, if a particular civil servant is especially diligent in his/her job, it makes sense to offer an incentive to relocate but for the vast majority it is a waste of money and defies common sense.

If they owed any loyalty to their position, they would accept and appreciate the simple economic need to spread the bounty around the rest of the country.

101

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 23/01/2007 18:53:38

#16, RCG. Before I read the rest of the posts I'd better reply to yours.

I've written countless letters to the Scotsman about the relocations that have gone west to the other end of the M8 as being politically motivated. Asset stripping Edinburgh to boost the Labour heartland. For no other reason.

OK, it's taken the departure of Brillo Pad to make the Hootsman begin writing comments about this but it is happening.

Fact. Edinburgh is the capital of Scotland. Fact. The parliament sits there. Fact. Glasgow is not the capital of Scotland. Fact. Glasgow has over 50% of the relocation jobs when Glasgow does not have 50% of the population. Fact. Glasgow was built up as Scotland's major city by the union. Fact. the only people who like Glasgow are weegies. Fact. Glasgow is a drain on Scottish resources. Fact. Glasgow always needs more money because it cannot manage its economy.

Fact. The parliament only sat in Glasgow as a Labour party sop when the CoS took the Mound back for their annual blah. Fact. Glasgow has an imperialistic attitude with Scotland. Fact. Everyone else knows this and despises it.

102

IanS,

Livingston 23/01/2007 18:57:59

Not sure what all the fuss is about. Happens in the private sector all the time. Company I used to work for transferred all jobs through to Glasgow those that lived in Edinburgh got travel expenses and travel time counted as work time for a period of time (and no they didn't have laptops and mobiles to actually do any work with!).

103

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 23/01/2007 19:07:32

Ken M

A mighty comment but your fact that Glasgow doesn't have 50% of th populaion is correct, at 3 million in Glasgow and greater Glasgow it has almost 75% of the population,

Rulesbutnotrulers

Thanks for backing up the UK Civil Service. I don't work for them but I have little to grumble about. However, Senior Civil Servants I do hav problem with and thier political masters. The guy on the front line does a thankless job so let them have thier wee bung.

104

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 23/01/2007 19:11:02

Having flicked back to RCG at#16, I am reminded of a certain Media 1.

This is surely a Hootsman plant.

105

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 23/01/2007 19:14:18

110, Angus. Wherever did you get those figures? City of Glasgow's population is around 600,000 nowadays. As for the surrounding urbanised areas, you may have noticed that they are increasingly referring to themselves autonomously.

106

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 23/01/2007 19:31:27

In the 1960s large-scale relocation to new towns in the suburban area of the city, and many boundary changes, the current population of the City of Glasgow alone is now just 685,090 and 1,749,154[2] in the immediate Metropolitan area of the city. With Glasgow and the Metropolitan area and the West central Scotland population combined the figure is about half of scotlands population, this region is all within 22 miles of Glasgow city centre.

www.Wikipedia.com.

Half of 5 milion is 2.5 million. I did state Glasgow and Greater Glasgow meaning the 22 mile radius of the centre. I don't dispute your figures at all Ken M as they are roughly correct for Glasgow city alone.

107

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 23/01/2007 19:35:59

110, Angus. Have you not heard the rumblings of wanting to get rid of the local authorities and the police force regions? Can you guess what would happen. Strathclydula would arise at dusk and declare itself as the biggest in a one size take all contest (their rules) and centralise the new unitary police force in, you got it, Glasgow. Then it would be the Fire Service and then it would be everything. And all because biggest is best.

Well, it doesn't work that way.

108

Scooby,

Alicante Spain 23/01/2007 19:37:12

A look at whether the staff need to go to work or work from home would also be a good idea. If they are sat poking a keyboard all day, that can be done anywhere.
I was in the civil service, (technical), I was in charge of an operation where my staff could have done 90% of there work on a home PC , I suggested this to my management and they thought I was crazy, of course I realised they were only looking after their own positions.

109

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 23/01/2007 19:38:57

Sorry Ken M I should have mentioned that the figures above used are from 2001 cencus. Scotlands population has risen over the last 3 years so it'll be a bit over 2.5 million. As an incidental, I wasn't to know that the regions outside the city refer to themselves as autonomous. Must be very hard to do so when it's complete buildings, roads and concrete for the entire area!

110

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 23/01/2007 19:39:54

How many of the relocated jobs have been allocated to the areas outwith the Glasgow city boundary?

111

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 23/01/2007 19:40:55

But I take on what you say of course!

Did you know that the Uists wish to break away from the Lewis and Harris district and be autonomous?

112

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 23/01/2007 19:44:22

116, Angus. There are demarcation signs between local authorities in prominent positions on the routes I travel by road, which is more than can be said about Stenhousemuir and Larbert.

113

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 23/01/2007 19:45:56

Angus, I do not want to break away from Glasgow. I only want Glasgow to be a part of Scotland instead of trying to take it over.

114

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 23/01/2007 19:49:14

I've never noticed Galsgow trying to take over Scotland! Maybe it's a good thing that the power house is in Edinburgh then!

Sorry mate, can't say I noticed the demarcations between local authorities, I usually arrive in Glasgow by plane or at night asleep!

So what are the local authorities in the west then?

115

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 23/01/2007 19:51:35

118. I did not know that but there has to be a reason. Too much centralisation perhaps.

116

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 23/01/2007 19:57:28

I was pulling your leg mate! But in spirit perhaps they do!

117

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 23/01/2007 20:03:07

121, Angus. Don't mean to be rude but try wikipedia. I'm not long back from Balmore tonight, near Bishopbriggs.
Both got G postcodes.

I'm a Land Surveyor and you notice the signs but the names don't mean very much. It's one of the Bundartonshires or Dumbartonshires. Then there's the Lanarkshires and the Renfrewshires. Bit like the clans, eh?

118

thesmallerhalf,

West Lothian 23/01/2007 20:07:16

It is not just the public sector that indulges in such payments. The company I work for, a transnational, pays 10s of thousands annually year for precisely the same thing. When does it end? When new recruits replace existing staff. So it could go for years yet.

119

Unbending Atheist,

23/01/2007 20:15:30

Has the Executive thought about Cumnock or Auchinleck as good places to relocate people to? It's really nice in Ayrshire. The metropolitan types would appreciate the pastoral change of scene...

120

Mart on Skye,

23/01/2007 20:16:59

It's so easy to criticise Civil Servants from a position of ignorance.
Generally in like for like positions compared to the private sector civil servants are paid less.

Contrary to popular belief their jobs are not cushy and unstressed. Every Government wants to get more done for less money. Over the last ten to fifteen years many budgets have been frozen or only increased a little yet the work load because of government demands has increased.

There is a high level of integrity in our civil service that you won't find anywhere else in the world.

All in all they are a pretty good bunch but as anywhere there are few in the higher positions who are not up to the task.

The 'benefits' these civil servants are receiving will be for a limited time only unless the Scottish Executive are using different rules.

121

eric,

Lothian 23/01/2007 20:18:09

Edinburgh is a small capital city ,And no matter how hard we try to be Like Glasgow we cant ,More Folk from Glasgow voted for the Parliament to be in Edinburgh than Folk from Edinburgh ,
Edinburgh as nice as it is ,It doent have the feel or appearance of a city,being from Edinburgh I hope that never Changes,
Glasgow has a Brilliant Park N ride Underground system And all the arts Are in Glasgow And Brilliant shops etc.We should stop winging and just be ourselves.

122

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 23/01/2007 20:22:07

Cheers Ken M! Will do.

123

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 23/01/2007 20:22:47

eric

Spot on pal!

124

JayJay,

Glasgow 23/01/2007 20:58:07

What a lively debate!
Of course, we can grumble about Parliaments, teachers pay, consultants salaries, staff on juggling courses, Scottish Enterprise directors admitting they had no idea how their budget worked, absurd pension arrangements, percentage of staff taking sickies etc but this is to undermine those working in a system that by definition simply does not work.
Someone above from Barra pretty much encapsulated the problem. The underlying, driving ethos of the public sector is "spend it or lose it". When you combine that with political masters who spend all their waking hours coming up with madcap schemes with grossly underestimated budgets (especially on capital projects) then lack the honour to take the blame for the ensuing shambles, preferring to pass that on to some underling - well I think you can understand why we could take our senior politicians/civil servants to the annual "pissing money against a wall world cup" with a fair old chance of winning the thing!
Prudence and efficiency need to be rewarded not penalised....spend it or lose it needs to be replaced by keep what you save and spend it on something useful. Regrettably even dear old Mrs Thatch lacked the cahones to mess with the insanity of public sector finance. In this case, it is broke, and we sure as heck need to fix it...but no-one dares! If we do not nip this in the bud, we stand a good chance of the public sector swallowing an ever increasing slug of the national budget.

125

Duncan,

Scotland where the world is my lobster :>) 23/01/2007 22:20:54

111 KEN

Once you have seen them a few times it is so obvious. The rhetoric is all exactly the same, and so to the mental age. You will also notice other trolls popping up with names like, pud nyc, and then never seen again because they forget.
You really do despair at the antics, it just shows how utterly pathetic and bereft of any cohesive argument the unionist drones are, it must be a horrible feeling being a known unionist, like having a weeping boil on the end of your nose. Or a Marxist!

126

The Wizard,

OZ 23/01/2007 23:06:53

I worked for the Govt for nearly twenty years. This is what we got.
Seventeen and a half % loading on your holiday pay
(obviously cost more to go on holiday than stay at home)
Three months paid long service leave every seven years plus your normal months annual leave-you did not get loading on the three months.
Two travel days added to your leave if you live more that 200 miles from the city.
Three "short day's" leave a year to travel to the city for medical reasons or meet family at the airport etc.
Those in private industry only got long service leave every 10 or 15 years.
We had staff Xmas parties --all goodies supplied.
More parties when long serving employee left.
Morning and afternoon tea(tea/coffee, scones, biscuits etc)
As the years rolled bye and we all got on the 'www'
I found I was spending my time attending meetings and producing huge amounts of paperwork that nobody read--it got filed in huge storage areas.
I had less and less time to do the job I enjoyed. I resigned.

127

donmclean,

East Kilbride 24/01/2007 00:55:13

128 : Eric, did you have a vote as to where your Parliament should be? You seem to have more information than we have! What voting took place?
Is that not the crux of the matter. We did not have a say in where, our centre of Government should be, this is why we're involved in this debate.

128

BillyB,

24/01/2007 00:59:41

A bit late in the day, but Ken M (#111), to respond to you: FACT - i said that thought Stirling would have been the best location for the Scottish parliament, so why are you banging on with your anti-Glasgow tirade? All I did say is that a 10 year old child could have worked out that putting the parliament on a new site in central edinburgh would likely be the most expensive of outcomes. FACT - it was.

So what is your point, other than illustrating mine, namely that establishment edinburgh types just could not concieve of a parliament based outside their city, as if they had some god given right to it? And i have no particular bias against edinburgh - I work there and have lived there recently, but it is the most expensive and atypical place in Scotland, "A Garrison city" I think the nats call it, with some historical and current justification. Full of people who voted "No, No" but still expected the goodioes hosting the parliament brings them.

I could go on but my basic point is that MSPs never even asked the question. If they had and the evidence and their judgement concluded that our new parliament building should be in edinburgh, so be it. But it was just assumed it had to be.

And why do you suggest, just beause I disagree with you I am a "hootsman plant". They can barely afford to pay upfront journos - plants posting after midnight would bust them. I am entitled to my view, you, yours - even though I have incontrovertable evidence you are a CIA agent!

All the best - RGC

129

donmclean,

East Kilbride 24/01/2007 01:05:25

Jay Jay,
Why don't you put yourelf up for election ?
You've got to have more commonsense, to cut through the political mire, than the puerile politicians,
who currently spend our money i.e. £10,000 to bring
a photographer from New York, £ 2 grand a photo + expenses, nice work if you can get it ?

130

Bozo,

NSW Australia 24/01/2007 03:12:51

I must thank Santa for those wonderfull new tools he gave me.
1. That special screwdriver that will tighten any
screw regardless of what condition the HEAD is in.
2. That special spanner that will fit any type of NUT.

Words fail me to describe grown men that act/behave like this.

131

expat in the sun,

Fuerteventura 24/01/2007 11:21:47

A few years ago I was unfortunate enough to be unemployed. I lived in Edinburgh - I got an interview for a job in Glasgow. When I applied for a travel allowance from the Jobcentre to attend this interview - I was told that the rules did not allow this as Glasgow was considered a normal commute. So if unemployed can't get a travel allowance to get from Edinburgh - Glasgow - then why the hell should well paid civil servanets get this???

132

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 24/01/2007 14:55:19

#128, Eric. Exacly, re the arts. All the arts are in Glasgow. Performing arts as well. And the media.

Check out todays Hootsman re the monopoly of the supermarkets to get a smell of my rants against Glasgow. It is a monopoly which uses its size to get more. At least there are 4 "BIG" supermarket chains being moaned about.

Even the smallest pea brain can surely see the writing put on the wall by the Labour executive - backed up by the pea-brained Lib Dems- that they will concentate all the power in Glasgow.

A return to regions (as has been muttered by some) will see 50% of the population governed from Glasgow again. Christ, the Monopolies Commission would ban that. Then they would unify the police forces (in Glasgow) and so on ad nauseum.

BE warned.

133

Joe90,

erehwon 24/01/2007 15:59:42

No 19 'Old Roy'. What makes you think that Civil Servants have index linked pensions? And on what do you base your figures of 95% civil servants 'do damn all'. Is this the usual crap spouted by people who want more from the government purse or facilities and get p*ssed off with civil servants when they tell them it's not on? For your information, Maggie Thatcher, unilaterally, removed the civil service pension index link in the eighties, in spite of agreements with the unions that civil servants would receive generally lower salaries and lower pay increases annually because of the so-called generous index linked pensions they would receive in the future.
I am in receipt of a full government pension, but because of the loss of the index link, any government employee with the same length of service as I had and with the same grade, retiring today, receives a pension more than 50% higher than mine. In due course, no doubt, he will feel the same when he sees someone retiring in 10 years or so! Index linking is a myth!!
As for civil servants who do not pull their weight, like any organisation there are good employees and there are bad employees and the whole range in between. I gave nearly forty years of my life to the diplomatic service, working - and I mean working - in countries like Burma, Zaire (now the Republic of Congo), China et al. From working 24 hours a day in Turkey during the Cuban crisis and the Cyprus crisis, to being on call 24 hours per day as consul, responding to such pleas in the middle of the night as 'Mr Consul, I have forgotten where I parked my car' to dealing with people in gaol for smuggling drugs, or dealing with people who have been arrested by local security services for no reason at all AND getting them freed and on their way, to dealing with people arrested in the backwoods of Zaire for murder, witchcraft, cannibalism, etc, etc. Don't talk to me about a bad civil service. I earned my pension and our civil and diplomati


 

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