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Unlikely Holyrood alliance helps SNP squeeze home in budget vote

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Published Date: 24 January 2008
Concessions on police, the environment and cash for capital help win support of Tories, Greens and Margo
Margo MacDonald: Won extra money for Edinburgh council
Margo MacDonald: Won extra money for Edinburgh council
THE Scottish Government's historic first budget passed its initial parliamentary test last night – thanks to the co-operation of an unlikely alliance of Tories, Greens and Margo MacDonald.

In a knife-edge vote after a four-hour debate, the government won by 64 votes to 62, with the two Green MSPs abstaining.

All 47 SNP MSPs supported the budget, backed by the 16 Tories and Ms MacDonald, the independent who represents the Lothians.

However, in order to secure their support, John Swinney, the finance secretary, had to make a series of concessions.

He promised the Conservatives that he would look again at finding more money for extra police officers and at accelerating the introduction of a promised business-rate cut.

To assuage the Greens, he said the Scottish Government would in future insist on a "carbon" assessment of the next spending review and repeated it would not continue the £6 million fund to set up new airline routes to and from Scotland.

Mr Swinney also pledged to give more money to Edinburgh council to recognise the city's status as the capital, one of Ms MacDonald's key demands.

After a day of tension at Holyrood, the final vote saw Labour and the Lib Dems round on the Conservatives and their leader, Annabel Goldie, for supporting the SNP administration.

Tavish Scott, the Lib Dem finance spokesman, said: "The Tories deserve nothing but derision for having sold their votes to the SNP for a half-baked promise. Annabel Goldie's claim in last year's election campaign to be the only person standing between Scotland and nationalism now looks very hollow."

A clearly relieved Mr Swinney said the budget had crossed a "very, very important hurdle". But last night's vote is only the start of the process, and he will have to go back over the books to see if he can find the extra cash to fund what the Tories want on the police and business rates.

During the debate, Mr Swinney appeared to hint heavily that money for extra officers could be found, but he was more reticent on business rates. He told MSPs he was looking at the options but did "not want to raise expectations".

Derek Brownlee, the Tories' finance spokesman, said: "Our support is not indicative that we will support the budget in the final vote next week, but we will, as we have said for some months now, wait until we see the final make-up of the budget before we reach a decision."

The Federation of Small Businesses Scotland welcomed the budget – and the move on business rates. Andrew Watson, its spokesman, said: "This budget is good for business.

"This is the second time the full parliament has requested the Scottish Government to look again at the implementation of the small business bonus and comes on the back of a similar recommendation from the finance committee which scrutinised the detail of the bill.

"We are encouraged that the Scottish Parliament has – so far – understood the importance of the policy to the tens of thousands of small businesses."

• Tension over the vote heightened when Aileen Campbell, an SNP MSP, had been taken to hospital after an accident involving scalding soup. She was treated for burns, given a tetanus injection and returned to Holyrood to cast her vote.

Blushes, three little words and an uncomfortable position: Margo strikes again

WHAT a difference minority government makes to political relations, writes Peter Mac- Mahon. Five years ago, former SNP MSP Margo MacDonald had fallen out acrimoniously with her party and its then leader, John Swinney.

Yesterday, all was sweetness and light as the two indulged in parliamentary flirting over one of Ms MacDonald's pet projects: securing special funding for Edinburgh as the capital city.

During yesterday's debate, Ms MacDonald told Mr Swinney that all he had to say to her was "three little words".

Immediately, several Liberal Democrat MPS suggested they would be "I love you." Blushing slightly, the finance secretary declined to declare his undying affection for his one-time colleague but he did say three other little words: "Capital city supplement."

Ms MacDonald has long argued that because it has a parliament and a palace, Edinburgh deserves a special financial settlement befitting its status.

A canny operator, the woman who defied expectations by winning a seat as an independent in the last two elections used the power her one vote gives her over the minority administration to good use, in the interests of the city she represents.

Though Mr Swinney has yet to put a figure on the extra money, there was a twinkle in Ms MacDonald's eye last night.

Refusing to admit she had the government in an uncomfortable position, she said: "I will use any opportunity to make the case for the capital. I have always been one for a good bargain."



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 23 January 2008 11:58 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 24/01/2008 00:32:47
Thanks Annabel and Margo !
2

The Strategist,

24/01/2008 01:03:28
Isolating Labour and the LibDems is a brilliant tactical move.
3

Navvy,

24/01/2008 01:03:30
This is what Scotland needs - pragmatism not dogmatism

The LibDems sold their soul to Labour for no lasting benefit to either themselves or to Scotland.

The first new thinking in Scottish govenment for 50 years deserves a chance to see what it can achieve.
4

Alan B,

24/01/2008 01:08:31
The lib dems seem all over the place. They are generally regarded as similar to the snp in policy terms other than independence. Exactly why are they voting against the budget if the greens can find enough in it to support it.

The tory party in scotland are actually showing alot of maturity. A minority administration is probably the best way political parties can be held to account. But it requires adult politicians not child like immaturity. I think we all know that we cannot expect that from the labour party. Anyone who still supports that shower of cretins is either politically nieve, stupid or does not mind blatent corruption.
5

Scottish Cynic,

Prestonpans 24/01/2008 01:50:40
votes. Lets face it; this was a good day for the Nats, Tories and Margo. John Swinney and Bruce Crawford did well to get it through at all. It’s not a good day for the rest of Scotland though.

This is a right wing budget pass by a right wing alliance. It does not protect the most vulnerable in our society. We now have a truly Tory government in Holyrood, and after 10 years of government based on equality, we've regressed.

When the SNP speak of Social Justice, its lip service. Social Justice is not part of their mentality; they do not understand the concept.

At least Labour and the Lib Dems tried. They must have known after the Finance Committee that it would be difficult. The Greens simply rolled over.

Oh well just another three years and four months of Tory rule to go. Let the onslaught of criticism about this post commence.
6

Scottish Cynic,

Prestonpans 24/01/2008 01:51:01
Two votes. Lets face it; this was a good day for the Nats, Tories and Margo. John Swinney and Bruce Crawford did well to get it through at all. It’s not a good day for the rest of Scotland though.

This is a right wing budget pass by a right wing alliance. It does not protect the most vulnerable in our society. We now have a truly Tory government in Holyrood, and after 10 years of government based on equality, we've regressed.

When the SNP speak of Social Justice, its lip service. Social Justice is not part of their mentality; they do not understand the concept.

At least Labour and the Lib Dems tried. They must have known after the Finance Committee that it would be difficult. The Greens simply rolled over.

Oh well just another three years and four months of Tory rule to go. Let the onslaught of criticism about this post commence.
7

ed.,

in Edin 24/01/2008 02:06:13
The Greens abstained. What a cop out. They have gained nothing concrete, just a maybe on doing in the future what should be done now.

The Tories supported the budget for a promise that the SNP would look again at police recruitment, and would do what they were going to do anyway, but faster. Aye, right, some concession. If they don't recruit more police, then numbers will go down, reversing the increases of the last few years (unless they can persuade several hundred a year to stay on rather than retire - not likely). Annabel Goldie's claim to be the real opposition is laughable.

Margot can probably be satisfied that she brought home the bacon for her own area at the expense of the rest of the country. I dare say a few SNP supporters outside Edinburgh will not be too happy about that, but mostly they will be relieved that the "opposition" was bought off so cheaply.

The budget debate of course is about much bigger issues, not that you could tell that from the above article. Unfortunately, people tend not to get worked up about changes such as the SNP are making until they are personally affected by the consequences.
8

Richardinho,

24/01/2008 02:20:33
I don't like having to effectively give in to blackmail from margo Macdonald, but it is absolutely essential to get the budget through. Maybe Edinburgh does need extra money-who knows.

I don't accept this 'social justice' talk of one of the posters. It's simply ridiculous to imagine that the SNP or the Conservatives for that matter somehow are going to grind the most vulnerable in our society underfoot-or that Labour are their greatest champions for that matter.

This is a 'one nation' budget where no ideology has been allowed to overide the general welfare of the country. This reflects the general consensus within the parliament, and in the country at large.
9

calum,

24/01/2008 03:14:07
Margo bullies and threatens her way to her single strand agenda once again - Edinburgh. It is our capital, it deserves the status and resources to go with that but before it gets even more there should be at least a control on its waste and profligacy.
So, Margo, that'll be why you're so enthusiastic in your support for the TramLINE in Edinburgh, ....so that it will benefit all Scotland .........at a cost of £3/4 billion, an amount which could benefit more than just the political egos of Edinbugh, including your own. Why don't you support the upgrade of the A9, for example, which would benefit much more of Scotland? Or the A1? Or the Aberdeen bypass? Or the electrification of more railways? Or the reinstatement of the Waverley Route?
All of which are necessary for the local, regional and national development of our country which need the transport infrastructure to support a whole range of industries away from your beloved adopted city.
But no, you'd rather bellow fae the stairheid as usual.
10

blueguru,

US 24/01/2008 04:15:45
I find it supremely ironic that the Labour Party, after virtually ignoring minority and underprivileged interests in Scotland for the past 8 years are suddenly their champions. The electorate will not be fooled by such blatant and self-centered cynicism. Week after week we have had to endure the attrocious Bendy Wendy, trying to distract attention from her own very obvious shortcomings by focusing on those even more unfortunate than herself. No wonder Alex Salmond has such a grin on his face whenever she starts to speak. I've waited for a long time to witness the death of this monstrous party. May it be a long, slow and painful one. It couldn't happen to a nicer bunch.
11

Stuart505,

Dubai 24/01/2008 05:14:31
10: As ever, Labour move to the Left only in opposition, talk is easy. They had years to implement what they now weep over.

As for 5 Scottish Cynic, Right wing you say? Right wing? Which of the Social Justice policies brought forward in the very short period the SNP have been in minority power do you disagree with? Please do tell.
I have been a lifelong Labour supporter/voter and sometime member and Scottish Labour today bear no resemblance to the party I grew up with. The Labour party is far more to the right than the Executive. Trident, Iraq? What are you supporting here? Whatever it is it is not socialism.

There are none so blind.....
12

,

24/01/2008 05:42:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
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13

Transparent?,

Scotland 24/01/2008 07:28:23
It's not over until the fat lady sings!
14

conservative,

Fife 24/01/2008 07:49:05
So Edinburgh is to get more of our cash yet again. What a grand job the council are doing there. Shifting their population with its costly social requirements to outlying counties like Fife. Creating traffic schemes that discriminate against the workers it depends on and still managing to get their hand into our pockets. Instead of giving more and more to Edinburgh city we should be taxing it to pay for the havoc it creates elsewhere.
15

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 24/01/2008 08:01:31
This has shown that Labour is just as ineffective in opposition as they were in government.Good work by the SNP/Tories and Marvellous Margo.
16

Phil C,

24/01/2008 08:03:40
#4 AlanB

I completely agree that minority government, by consenting adults, is the best way forward. Labour have been despicable in opposition along with their Liberal puppy dogs. These erses object for the sake of it and have proved to be too immature for government- not that we needed further proof after years of selfish cronyisn and dishonest abuse of power! Unfortunately, lots of people in this country seem to support LibLab corruption and deception! They need to grow up too.
17

eric,

Lothian 24/01/2008 08:10:39
Pledged! Hilarious,
18

Duncan in Edinburgh,

24/01/2008 08:20:00
#15 Taxing Edinburgh you say? You mean like the £800 million in business rates collected in Edinburgh that has gone to the rest of the country? Is that what you mean?

If you don't like the way Fife is being developed as a commuter belt for Edinburgh complain to Fife council - it's their deliberate policy. Stops them having to do anything complex like support for economic growth.
19

paulr,

edinburgh 24/01/2008 08:24:31
The two Green MSPs abstaining, typical backstabbers, they dont have the guts to vote no, so they abstain.
20

inkster,

24/01/2008 08:25:11
One small step for Holyrood, one giant step for Scotland
21

paulr,

edinburgh 24/01/2008 08:30:54
If this budget and government are for the benefit of the whole of scotland, why did they allow this trams fiasco to go ahead?
They will benefit only a very small portion of the residents of edinburgh and will be of no benefit whatsoever to the rest of scotland. They are a total waste of public money and the people of edinburgh certainly dont want them.
22

Paco Luna,

Bo'ness 24/01/2008 08:46:00
22 I think you'll find that the executive did try to stop the trams project . It was the opposition that voted it through . Thats minority government for you - some you win some you lose . Make sure you direct your wrath at the right people though.
23

Montford's Jaicket,

Hanging around 24/01/2008 08:50:15
Good to see "concensus government" continuing with the agreement over the Budget. but what's with the "Embra's special cos it has a palace and a parly" bit? Kirkwall has 2 palaces (Bishop's and Earl's) so if the local cooncil were to rename itself "the Orkney Isles Parliament" would that qualify them for extra cash as well? My house is a palace (of sorts) and we have a parliament among the occupants. My chief of Finance (wife) and I would also like some extra from the public purse.
24

Montford's Jaicket,

Hanging around 24/01/2008 08:50:50
That's "consensus" of course...
25

Teamdroid,

24/01/2008 09:01:09
Yet again the Lib Dems make a fool of themselves. They didn't put forward a single amendment in committee, yet they vote against the Budget! If you're going to oppose something, at least pretend to have a principled basis on which you oppose it...
26

ddmc,

24/01/2008 09:01:16
#7 "Margot can probably be satisfied that she brought home the bacon for her own area at the expense of the rest of the country."

Isn't that what she's supposed to do, represent her constituents. Why should Edinburgh shoulder the additional costs for the parly ?, it's a scottish thing not just Edinburgh.

As for the labour claptrap about "the vunerable" what exactly did they do when in power for 8 years.

The SNP were against the trams, but as all the other parties ganged up on them on this issue rather than take a risk in the opening months of their installment opted to take a safer approach. If you've got a problem with the trams , blame Labour at both council & national level, they are the ones who rushed through the spending approval in the last days of their reign.

I don't even like the SNP that much but compared to labour they are a fresh breath of air, which was badly needed.

Labour, we'll fight cronyism & tough on the causes of cronyism, LOL
27

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 24/01/2008 09:10:24
This sums up Tavish Scott and the Libdems:

"Tavish Scott, the Lib Dem finance spokesman, said: "The Tories deserve nothing but derision for having sold their votes to the SNP for a half-baked promise. Annabel Goldie's claim in last year's election campaign to be the only person standing between Scotland and nationalism now looks very hollow."

He sees Tory support for the SNP budget as support for nationalism.

What a d1ck!!
28

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 24/01/2008 09:14:18
#5 Scottish Cynic

I would like to hear your views on how "socially just" it was of the Labour government at Westminster to deprive vulnerable groups in Scotland of almost £200m of lottery funding?

Also, the SNP budget is no less just than all the previous budgets at Holyrood.
29

,

24/01/2008 09:21:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
30

AJ Fife,

24/01/2008 09:22:38
More brilliant politics from the SNP!

Westminster should take note......this is how democracy is supposed to work - policy for the benefit of the people!
31

malkster,

Scotland 24/01/2008 09:28:21
#30

Lottery money was taken from all areas of the Uk to help with the Olympics not just Scotland. Lottery funding will be made available for Glasgow 2014 so at leat we will get some back. Th epeople whos should be moaning are the Welsh and the Cornish.
32

walter,

24/01/2008 09:38:28
#15
£805 million has been paid out by Edinburgh into the redistribution pool over the past decade. This represents almost 40 per cent of the total business tax raised of £2.2 billion.
Last year 06/07, £111 million went into the pool from Edinburgh and that is expected to be £125 million this year 07/08.
The figures have risen every year since 1996-7, when £56 million was paid into the pool from Edinburgh.
Glasgow is the only other city paying in any substantial amount but even they pay a lot less than Edinburgh, £66 million last year 06/07, £615 million from Glasgow out of a total raised there of £2.5 billion over the same period of time.
Just think of what Edinburgh could have done with that money, even if it had been paying the same as Glasgow there would be millions of taxes raised in Edinburgh being spent in Edinburgh.
What ever amount the government gives to Edinburgh it will be no where near what it collects for redistribution from Edinburgh.
33

1745,

Edinburgh 24/01/2008 09:46:40
# 15

We have not forgotten that Fife voted in the most loathed Prime Minister of ALL time, to the westminster gov.
34

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 24/01/2008 09:47:40
AM2 repeatedly used to voice his opinion that if the SNP came into power that they would continually pick fights with London.

In fact the opposite has happened - we had repeated childishness from Westminster.

And in this vote here the conservatives were mature enough to be willing to work with the SNP, but Labour and the Lib Dems simply have been childish in wanting to oppose because they are in a strop.

#28 - Yes Tavish Scott's comment shows the childishness of their position. It's not based on anything in the budget itself, or anything to help the Scottish people.
35

AJ Fife,

24/01/2008 09:53:08
1745,

Quite right, it's Fife's shame. However, the voters can make ammends at the next election! Mind you, Broon could murder his entire family and the Fife Labour sheep would still vote for the tube!
36

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 24/01/2008 09:53:57
#30 malkster,
Lottery funding will not be available for 2014, as the funding for 2012 has a built in over run until 2015.
The Woolich area will have £20 million to build the facitity and £8 million to knock it down.
37

megz,

glasgow 24/01/2008 10:01:46
it is hard to swallow all the rubbish labour are spouting about the vulnerable, where was that concern when 'scottish' labour mps voted away £184m of lottery fund cash to the olympics that would have otherwise gone to worthy causes and the vulnerable? What exactly have they done for the vulnerable over the last 8 years? The liberals are a joke, i have no idea how anyone could vote for them. All labour and liberals do is moan and snipe from the sidelines. What have they done that is actually consrtuctive? Atleast the tories, margo and the greens are trying to get something done.
38

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 24/01/2008 10:07:26
Can you not hear the grinding of the Labour and Liberal dentures ohh it sounds good!!

No 6. Well that's amazing that's almost verbatium copy from the labour party press release, define social justice no 6?

Are you saying that old folk, children , woman are going to get hurt and die? Because of the end to ring fencing?

Social justice for me is having the ability to work my way out of a council scheme using my own small talents to improve my life.

I managed that, social justice is not giving a group in society a welfare giro so that can sit on their colletive backsides.

39

Ayrshire Scot™,

24/01/2008 10:14:41
Am I the only one who's worried that we'll become polluted if we're seen to be in bed with the Tories? We were badly damaged for years by "Tartan Tory" jibes and I'd hate to see all Alex's good work in luring Govan and East Kilbride voters undone by all this.
40

AJ Fife,

24/01/2008 10:20:11
Ayrshire,

I think it says more about the Tories than the Scottish govt. The SNP are simply making the system work for them. The Scottish Tories would should their own Grannies if it meant their profile could be raised!
41

AJ Fife,

24/01/2008 10:21:31
Oops,
#41 - should, should be shoot of course!
42

Double oose,

24/01/2008 10:25:38
If Liberals and Labour got there way there
would be;
· No council tax freeze
· No reduction in Business Rates
· No reduction in Prescription charges
· No further construction on Edinburgh Trams
· No improvement to the M8
· No increased investment in the third sector and social enterprise
· No Saltire or Horizon prizes
· No additional investment in waiting times
· No bursaries for students following the abolition of the Graduate Endowment fee
· No MRSA screening
· No additional teacher training places
· No additional police recruitment
· No new Dental School in Aberdeen
· No increased investment in Sport Scotland and no initial funding for Commonwealth Games preparation
· No increase in the International Aid budget
· No Borders Railway, no Glasgow Airport Rail Link, No Edinburgh Airport Rail Link
· No Campbeltown-Ballycastle ferry service and No new ferries.
· No investment in waiting Times reduction
· No increased investment in primary care in deprived areas
· No increased wheelchair provision
· No new Children’s hospital at Southern General
· No improvements at Aberdeen Royal Infirmary, Raigmore, Borders General or Dumfries and Galloway R.I.
· No increased investment in Scotland’s Housing
· No payments for Kinship Carers
· No increase in Free Personal care payments for the elderly
· No investment in life sciences
· Cervical Cancer vaccination
· No increased nursery provision
· No new Fire and Rescue Communications system
No life sciences investment in Dundee
Road Projects including Central Scotland Motorway Network (M8, M80 and M74), the A90 Aberdeen Western Peripheral Route and improvement schemes on the A68, A75, A77, A9 and A96.  Continuing expenditure on the A876 Kincardine Bridge, A68 Dalkeith Bypass, A75 (three schemes), A830 Arisaig to Loch nan Uamh and A9 Ballinluig and support the continuing maintenance for two inherited Design, Build, Finance, Operate (DPFO) contracts with 30km of new motorway constructed on the A74(M) and
43

FM in Dundee,

24/01/2008 10:29:43
Hi Scottish Cynic

"This is a right wing budget pass by a right wing alliance. It does not protect the most vulnerable in our society. We now have a truly Tory government in Holyrood, and after 10 years of government based on equality, we've regressed."

With respect, you can't surely believe this?!? Your tongue must be very firmly in cheek?!?

I don't know what country you have been living in but I think it's safe to say that most of us weren't aware of this "government based on equality" that you fancifully suggest ruled over us. Indeed what I can remember is a Lib-Lab government that presided over 1 in 4 children and 1 in 5 pensioners living in poverty. A Lib-Lab executive that actually oversaw an increase in the wealth gap and a feeble growth in our economy with all the implications that has on opportunity and the living standards of our citizens. This SNP government has done more in 8 months to challenge inequality than the Labour Party managed in 8 years of unambitious and ineffective executive rule.

John Swinney's budget is built around the core objective of improving standards of living in Scotland, making Scotland a fairer more successful nation. It is a social democratic budget to its very core.

Talk of the SNP as a right wing party is laboured propaganda at its most transparent. It isn't the SNP that supported the illegal war in Iraq masterminded by a neo-conservative clique, it isn't the SNP that supported morning raids and detention centres, it isn't the SNP that supports the proliferation of nuclear weapons, it isn't the leader of the SNP who lauds Margaret Thatcher and talks of "British jobs for British people".

The tone of your post suggests that you are a Labour supporter. If you truly believe in the pursuit of Social Justice, if you truly are a Social Democrat then I respectfully suggest that you are supporting the wrong political party.
44

Ayrshire Scot.™,

24/01/2008 10:34:22
Vote Lib Dem next time!
45

G,

dndy 24/01/2008 10:36:15
So the tories can't count either or they don't care about the lack of money to support key services...difficult or could it be sheer political opportunism by the tories - what will the SNP have to give them to keep them sweet?
46

megz,

glasgow 24/01/2008 10:37:15
lol if there is such a thing as a wasted vote then it is a lib/dem vote.
47

subrosa,

24/01/2008 10:37:40
Slightly off topic but has anyone noticed the Daily Record is claiming we'll all pay £1000 for a BBC licence fee if we have a Scottish BBC. It's time this tripe in a Scottish newspaper was stopped but there are those who will believe it because, although he didn't give the actual figure, the story mentions Des Browne in a spat with Pete Wishart at Westminster yesterday. The Daily Record made the figure of £1000 up to suit their purposes.

I'm still waiting for the bill for £5000 through my door as promised by Labour last year. Where is it?
48

Ayrshire Scot™,

24/01/2008 10:41:09
#41 AJ: well done with the spin, but we both know that it just doesn’t look good. Why do you think we had a policy of not going into coalition with the Tories for many years? This policy was the result of many years of listening to the reaction we were getting on the doorstep.

#45: morning fakey!
49

weh,

24/01/2008 10:43:46
BREAKING NEWS! BBC SCANDAL!!

BBC keeping libdem Aberdeen byepass allegations UNDER WRAPS!!

IT MUST BE KEPT UNREPORTED AT ALL COSTS!!

INSTEAD, ALL PROMINENCE WILL BE GIVEN TO SNP TRUMP STORIES, EVEN THOUGH SNP HAVE BEEN EXONERATED!!
50

Miss H,

24/01/2008 10:45:02
Scottish Cynic is following the Labour line and we can expect that all the way through the next 4 years. They have nothing else to say so let's just get used to it.

The argument is easily enough rebutted. Whether it is in ensuring that public sector workers - NHS staff, police - are paid what they are due in contrast to Labour's duplicity down south. Whether it is in increasing payments for personal and nursing care after years when Labour refused to do that. Whether it is in removing the unfair tax on ill health that is prescription charges (which Labour support). In a whole range of areas which other people have listed it is clear what the SNP's social democratic credentials are.

A bit of friendly advice now to Scottish Cynic - the SNP will bring proposals to replace the regressive council tax with a local income tax based on ability to pay to parliament. Labour is going to look very stupid opposing that when they have been claiming that the SNP is a regressive party which supports the rich at the expense of the poor.
51

Ayrshire Scot™,

24/01/2008 10:49:01
Now Trump’s saying that Alex is an “amazing guy”! First we’re in with the Tories and now this: can it get any worse?
52

FM in Dundee,

24/01/2008 10:53:13
Ayrshire Scot!!!! :)

The Lib Dems weren't exactly the party I was thinking of!!! :)

During there 8 years as Labour's junior partner in the executive they managed to spectacularly demonstrate how desperately ineffective they were at delivering for Scotland's disadvantaged.

I really don't understand the Lib Dems. In the elections they seemed to agree with the SNP on quite a few issues, not least local taxation. However, when they had the opportunity to form a progressive left-of-centre majority government with the SNP they refused even to enter preliminary discussions as a matter of principle RE an independence referendum.
The fact that Lib Dem principles didn't stretch to shunning Labour for that party's support of the war in Iraq, or ID cards, or the renewal of Trident says all we need to know about Lib Dem principles.


53

Miss H,

24/01/2008 10:54:05
Alex is an amazing guy. And he can play the harmonium - did you know that? And juggle too.
54

AJ Fife,

24/01/2008 10:54:21
Ayrshire,

I know the Tories are the natural enemy, but what else can a minority govt do? As I said, it says more about Tories than anything else, and the main point is, Alex Salmond is making the unionist suckers dance to his tune!

Highly skilled politiking by Alex and the team!
55

It's Academic,

Hamilton 24/01/2008 10:55:00
Tavish Scott, the Lib Dem finance spokesman, said: "The Tories deserve nothing but derision for having sold their votes to the SNP for a half-baked promise". Well Tavish should know, his party sold their votes and their soul to Liebour from the opening of the executive/parliament and it appears they are still in thrall to Bendy Wendy and the rest of her motley crew. Whilst up until the last election I had never voted SNP and have no wish to see total independance at the moment only those with half a brain could vote for either labour ( who traditionally my family and self voted for)or Lib Dem. Given that I could not see myself voting Tory (even as a protest)it is clear that I shall be voting SNP for the forseeable future!
56

Frobnitz,

EDINBURGH 24/01/2008 10:57:11
Certainly in Edinburgh the council-tax freeze is a little misleading - they are off-setting this by increasing extra charges e.g. Residents parking permits by a huge amount
57

Farmernot,

oan ma traictor 24/01/2008 11:09:16
Lib Dems......spineless whingers who are totally out of their depth......Wendy....about as much use as a wet sponge in a monsoon.....roll on the next Holyrood Elections when both will be wiped oot and forgotten.
A minority government can work when there is give and take to reach a fair settlement......and well put #43 ....the Lab/Lib control freaks have had thir day so move over.
58

Ayrshire Scot™,

24/01/2008 11:09:36
#51 Miss H: you’ve found yet another nail in the coffin: how will the local income tax go down with households supported by 2 wage earners struggling to support a family on middle incomes? Bye bye to our Perth heartland then!

#55 AJ: yes, but you must admit that Alex should be steering well clear of embarrassments like Trump and the Tories. If you talked to people in the pub, you’d know that they’re beginning to sneer at us! It’s not too late to stop the rot from setting in.
59

weh,

24/01/2008 11:15:14
FM wrote:-

really don't understand the Lib Dems. In the elections they seemed to agree with the SNP on quite a few issues, not least local taxation. However, when they had the opportunity to form a progressive left-of-centre majority government with the SNP they refused even to enter preliminary discussions"

Reason being, FM, that Ming (remember him?) decreed that NO coalition would be permitted.

This is because Bean was Mings buddy, and they were going to do a UK coalition deal with each other at the next election!

Makes sense, doesn't it?
60

AJ Fife,

24/01/2008 11:22:00
Ayrshire,

When the lads doon the pub see the English getting a whalloping council tax hike, they'll stop the sneering!

Being a leader of a country means you have to fraternise with some dubious people like Trump and the Tories now and again, but as long as they dance to the SNP tune....
61

Earnst Blofeld,

24/01/2008 11:27:08
#59 Ayrshire: since when did you get out to visit a pub, you sad man!
62

Doh,

24/01/2008 11:27:25
#53 Aryshire

Let me help your understanding so that you can have more perspective on political affairs.

The LibDems didnt shun the Labour party in the Scottish Parliament for the war in Iraq, ID cards or the renewal of Trident since these issues were not the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament or directly the the Labour MSPs.

The principle there is the one of responsibility.

May I remind you that SNP have recently dropped their
"principle" of non-coperation with the Tory party and are now advocating tax-cuts and in return receiving the support of the Tory party. What principle is that exactly? Expediency?


The Lib Dems decided not to enter into discussions with the SNp to form an administration precisely becuase it was felt that there budget proposals were so unrealistic - espeically the proposal to drop student debt - now abandonded by the SNP themselves.

The LibDems have recently voted with the SNP to support studnet funding, were disappointed by the budget higher education and I am sure will continue to support moves to introduce Local Income Tax.

The parliamentary majorities will be built on individual issues not a complete programme - and I think the SNP ministers, if not their more stupid supporters on this board, realise that quite well.

So I feel the SNP accord with the Tories will be short lived if the SNP intend to keep their promise on Local Income Tax.
63

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 24/01/2008 11:29:47
The indigenous Tories must be very naive in the extreme if they seriously believe support for a Budget proposed by a Nationalist Government can benefit their party in Scotland?

Talk about turkeys voting for Christmas!

64

Earnst Blofeld,

24/01/2008 11:30:59
#62 AJ: what tune would that be then? The Ride of the Valkyries or “The Chicken Song”? One way or the other, I wouldn’t mention that you’re a staunch SNP man in your licensed internet café, Ayrshire!
65

Number 6,

Germany 24/01/2008 11:34:13
Thank God for that. With each passing day we see the difference between Labour's appaling inaction on every front and the dynamic go ahead performance of the SNP. By no means perfect but just sooooooooo much more competent than Labour ever were. They have been left dizzy , gasping for air in the SNP's slipsteam , and each day provides the Scottish people clear signs of the difference between them. Anonomous, and for most of the time silent on policy, they are hardly putting the case to the Scottish people that they should abandon the SNP and return to the socialist fold. Way too little and far far too late. BRILLIANT STUFF.
66

malkster,

Scotland 24/01/2008 11:37:40
The SNP cannot seem to make their mind up. They are socially right wing but their spout on foreign policy would see Scotland pursue a left wing isolationist agenda.
67

malkster,

Scotland 24/01/2008 11:38:25
#67

Must look good from germany.
68

Farmernot,

oan ma traictor 24/01/2008 11:40:17
#67 ......couldn't have put it better......well said !!!
69

Miss H,

24/01/2008 11:40:33
Bit of spinning from Doh.

The SNP has not dropped a ban on entering coalition government with the Tories at parliamentary level. The SNP policy remains that there will be no coalitions with the Tories either at Holyrood or Westminster. The SNP has relaxed a ban on coalition with Tories in local government, which reflects the reality of the outcome of STV where most councils are no longer under the control of one political party (and a good thing too).

The reason the Lib Dems gave for not entering a coalition with the SNP is that they are opposed to a referendum on independence. Not that they are opposed to independence - they are opposed to having a referendum on it.

It is correct to say that parliamentary majorities will be built on individual issues which the SNP and its supporters recognise perfectly well. If the budget is no passed however parliamentary business will effectively be shut down.

It is also correct to say that unless the Lib Dems do more over the next months and years to differentiate themselves from Labour they will pay a very high price at the ballot box in future elections.
70

Miss H,

24/01/2008 11:41:57
The SNP is neither socially right wing nor isolationist.

Think social democratic. Think Scandinavian and you will start to understand.
71

Ayrshire Scot™,

24/01/2008 11:42:09
#66 Earnst: you’d better not be implying that we’re all a load of Nazis by your “Valkyries” reference! I don’t have to go to the pub, by the way: I’m better supplied than your average Haddows in here.

#71 Miss H: just what are you on? You spin me round...etc etc
72

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 24/01/2008 11:50:48
#60
Actually AM2 I believe strongly in a referendum rather than nationalism per se. I am happy either way as long as people get to say what happens and not a political elite (whatever side they support).

Neither am I saying Labour shouldn't be critical of the SNP - they should! I'm merely pointing out that you claimed the SNP would continually pick fights - whereas it is Labour who have been doing this (which goes beyond simply being critical).

Also Tavish Scott's comments against the Tories is ridiculous and childish - and opens up the ignorance in the Lab/Lib thinking which is simply to fight & oppose the SNP, rather than being rational and doing what is best. The fact that he can make such a comment and not realise that he has exposed himself as a shallow buffon is interesting and shows how childishly ingrained their thinking is.

You painted the SNP as an 'anti-party' before the election. IMO it is the Lab/Libs who have lived up to your prediction.
73

Ayrshire Scot™,

24/01/2008 11:52:00
#72 Miss H: thank god you didn’t add “think National Socialist”! Those anti Scottish unionists don't need any encouragement, as we both know.
74

Miss H,

24/01/2008 11:56:30
59 It will go down perfectly well because families struggling to get by will pay less not more - as they would do under Labour. In any case the SNP understands what Labour has forgotten, that most people are essentially decent and wish to see taxation based on the ability to pay. To people like you who imagine that people decide every issue solely on the basis of 'what's in it for me' this may come as something of a shock. But most of us know that people base their political opinions not only on what is best for them in a narrow financial sense (though that is obviously a factor) but on what is best for their family, their community and their country as well.

Here is another newsflash for you - most people do not mind paying tax. What they object to is above inflation tax hikes particularly when they suspect that a lot of their money is wasted rather than spent on the front line services we all depend on. By freezing council tax, scrapping the needless and wasteful bureacracy of ring fencing, and establishing a completely new concordat with local government the SNP has made a giant stride forward in delivering more responsive, local and accountable services which is what the vast majority of people want to see.
75

Miss H,

24/01/2008 11:58:39
74 No it would be the same Scandinavians who have the highest quality of life and lowest rates of child poverty in the world. If you care about that sort of thing - which I suspect you don't.
76

Earnst Blofeld,

24/01/2008 11:58:46
#73 Ayrshire: I think we can all see for ourselves just how well your drinks cabinet is stocked. “In vino veritas” as the old expression goes! (That’s Latin for “the truth in wine” for the less educated/hardcore Nats among us!)
77

Miss H,

24/01/2008 12:00:22
By the way keep the nazi slurs coming. More please. Nothing could provide a better illustration of the current state of play - Labour still struggling to get a grip on the reality that they lost and clueles about how to attack the SNP.
78

Doh,

24/01/2008 12:01:33
#71 Miss H

I wasnt spinning I was expressing my opinion.

I hadnt realised that SNP cuddling up to the Tories did not extend to the Scottish Parliament. However that doesnt really matter if the SNP can forge deals with the Tories in informal votes like the budget deal we have just had - that must be of some concern to you surely? Or are you an SNP suit?

The LibDems do not support a referendum on independance, that was perhaps one reason for not entering into a coalition with the SNP but it was by no means the only one.

Another reason, which was nothing to do with the SNP,
was simply that it was felt that after 8 years in government it was better to allow for change of administration. A bit like Baldwin welcoming the formation of a Labour government - a bit before my time of course.

I do agree with your last paragraph though, I would like to see the LibDems be a bit more impartial between Labour and the SNP. I also dislike the petty sniping which I dont think develops a positive message.
Unless that changes I too am more than happy for the LibDems to be clobbered electorally.

Electoral setbacks often lead to change of leadership and direction - which might lead to more a rapprochment between the SNP and LibDems which would be no bad thing in my opinion.

If you have any objectivity at all - it should be the policies that matter not the parties and certainly not the personalities. PR helps to bring this about but it is obvious in the parliament there is still a lot antagonism and baggage being carried by politicans of all parties. That is life.
79

Ananurhing,

24/01/2008 12:04:48
Well done Annabel Goldie. Especially given the pressure she is under from westminster tories to oppose everything the SNP do. The petulant partisan spoiling tactics of the lablibdum coagullation are laid bare for all to see. A bunch of off message floaters needing flushed away.
Until they are seen to operate, solely in Scotland's interests, free from westminster's influence, they will always be seen as old union detritus. It'll bite you on the bum Wendy. I can see quality family time on your horizon. Et tu Brooney!
80

Miss H,

24/01/2008 12:05:04
Doh - what deal have we struck with the Tories? To implement our own policies from our own manifesto faster. Does that bother me? No.

81

Ayrshire Scot™,

24/01/2008 12:08:50
#77 Miss H: I do largely agree with you, it’s just that I have horrific memories of the reaction against the Tories once the effects of the poll tax began to set in! Just like our local income tax, that was initially introduced in Scotland alone and initially thought to be popular. Talking of the Tories, isn't our increasing affinity to them what this article is all about?

#79 Earnst: don’t worry, I stick to international beverages and avoid quintessentially English labels such as John Smith’s.
82

watcher4,

Edinburgh 24/01/2008 12:09:13
The so called Socialists that jumped ship must be cringing. Bad enough voting for the Nat Tories but siding with the real Tories.
83

,

24/01/2008 12:11:12
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84

Sedov,

Scotland 24/01/2008 12:22:49
A great victory for the tartan tories -the parties of big business. As I have always maintained -the SNP have natural allies in the Tories.Its not Labour and the Lib Dems who have been isolated -its the common people. Shame on you Margo - your deal will solve nothing -sit back and wait for the cuts because as sure as day follows night - they are coming!
85

Number 6,

Germany 24/01/2008 12:23:33
#69 It certainly does. What you don't realise is that many many ex-pats would love to return and live in Scotland. Unfortunately, the damage done by decades of LABOUR miss- management have left our country one of the most deprived, backward , violent and unhealthy societies in Europe. Harsh words I know and just as painful for me to say, as it is for fellow scots to hear, but that's the reality.
Under the SNP I see things slowly but surely changing for the better. No more running to London for permission or advice, Decisions being made by Scots for Scots in Scotland. I dream of the day we become independent, I will definetly return to live and work in the land I love. At the moment it is simply too dangerous and inefficient, compared to Germany , for me to contemplate returning on a permanent basis.
86

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/01/2008 12:25:17
AJ - stop chatting with one of my many fakies.....
87

AJ Fife,

24/01/2008 12:29:37
Ayrshire#89,

What fakey, I didnae see ony fakies!!! What's the difference this time?

It must feel good to make such an impression, that some eejit takes time to become a fakey!!:D
88

,

24/01/2008 12:30:45
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89

megz,

glasgow 24/01/2008 12:31:48
slightly off topic but apparently peter hain has resigned will labours house of cards come crashing down?
90

AJ Fife,

24/01/2008 12:34:25
Peter Hain resigns!!! Great, but what will it mean for the corrupt Wendy?
91

mr chips,

24/01/2008 12:36:42
Wendy is in a dizzy.
She will be in her wee contemplation pod wetting the floor.
92

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/01/2008 12:36:51
90. AJ - fakery using a hard space. Undetecable, but the "real me" has a space before Ayrshire (due to some moderation no doubt caused by AM2) - check the Kimba thread from the other day to the monikers above - mine is slightly to the right...but then again who cares that muc.
93

megz,

glasgow 24/01/2008 12:37:18
you would think a worse fate awaits her because he has already admitted breaking the law.
94

,

24/01/2008 12:40:15
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95

AJ Fife,

24/01/2008 12:42:52
Ayrshire,

Those fakers are a faking nuisance eh? I thought the discussion was a bit of a change for you, but the faker was still pretending to be an SNP man. What a faking eejit!

Good news about Hain (confirmed on the BBC), hopefully this will lead to wee wendy getting her jotters as well! Having said that, she's that bad a politician, she's great for the SNP....if you know what a mean!:)
96

,

24/01/2008 12:43:26
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97

AJ Fife,

24/01/2008 12:46:13
#100,

Very clever...you can hardly tell the difference!:)
98

Ananurhing,

24/01/2008 12:47:12
Michty me! I must have had a wee touch of the old clairvoyance about me at 82#. Wonder what the tumbling order will be. Wendy 2nd or 3rd?
Got to go get some cream from the chemist. My schadenfreudes are flaring up again!
99

South Ayrshire Sanny Hossack,

24/01/2008 12:49:31
1 day to Roberts birthday who would have sumed it up "what a parcel o rouges in an nation"
100

Miss H,

24/01/2008 13:10:37
93 Don't kid yourself Chairman and do your own work! unicef, eurostat, oecd - any of them will give you the same picture.

Then look at the various global competitiveness reports that are published and see what countries are always in the top ten.

Do it - if I am wrong you can come back and prove it. But I am not.

101

Kenny,,

Partick 24/01/2008 13:30:53
AM2,Glasgow,UK 24/01/2008 11:14:07
"Your mindset is quintessentially nationalist. To you, agreeing with the SNP is mature, responsible, forward-thinking, consensus politics – whereas disagreeing is childish, negative, stroppy, spiteful etc. That’s your essential frame of reference."

Whereas the reverse is your essential frame of referrence.
102

Shamus,

Glasgow 24/01/2008 13:33:05
Nice to see Margo clapping like an ape. A nice alliance between the Tories and the other Tories. The working classes may well be saying, eh, where did we go wrong!!
103

morris,

edinburgh 24/01/2008 13:50:42
5

You are about to elect a Tory government in Westminster, and its people like you who did this for 18 years including Thatcher and have learned absolutely zilch since then.The SNP are to the left of Nu Labour which bears no resemblance to the Labour Party and it could hardly he clearer than it is!

You sound like Harry Cairney. Thats not a compliment by the way !
You have no reason to critcise the SNP. As for your view on Labours record in office just watch the results as Labour lose hundreds of seats and may even face a contest for second place in England with the Liberals gaining some seats also.Most will fall to the Tories but it could be enough to leave Labour nowehere!
Anybody who would recommend voting for a party which cannot possibly win needs their head examined!
104

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/01/2008 13:51:38
110. Yes indeed. Iraq, new Trident, tuition fees, top up fees, means testing for the elderly, cabinet minister after cabinet minister resigning for sleaze and corrutpion - the working classes no doubt hanker for new Labour....
105

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire coast A nationalist not a racist. 24/01/2008 13:52:35
Ayrshire scot @40. We are not going to be branded tartan tories like we were by labour back in 1979. It would be better if we had a majority in parliament,and as we dont our MSPs have to work with other parties to get legislation through, as it is the budget has passed its first stage with a couple of tweeks to it, and if money is found for more police on the beat, that will be popular with most citizens and is hardly right wing stuff. If the budget is knocked back then the plans including the Edinburgh trams which the entire opposition voted for, and the council tax freeze. and all the other plans will be scrapped. and last years budget will be used. Labour and the fib dems know this, they know there is not enough cash to go round to meet all there demands and are playing politics with no regard for Scotland, do they really want to be seen as the ones who sabataged the trams and the council tax freeze ?. Im glad that incompetent Lab Lib are out of power.
106

Ananurhing,

24/01/2008 13:52:36
107# Chairman Gordon

I lived in Denmark for a few years. I worked there, and Norway, and Finland. All hugely impressive societies. The diffirential between our society and theirs will have narrowed since I was there, but not the mindset. Their politics were so sensible to the point of being boring. No bad housing, and no poverty. Both illegal! And when they do take issue with their politicians, they feel empowered to do so. No question.

What about Norway's sovereign wealth fund? Saved up from years of prudent management of oil revenues. Not pissed away in a desert war. Out performing many hedge funds, and making sure there is a future after oil, whilst delivering the highest standard of living the world has ever seen. Not bad for what was a peasant society 100 years ago.
It's you that should go there and have a look.
It would be an interesting exercise to send say 10 Scottish families over there for a few weeks, and bring 10 Scandinavian families over here, then record their respective observations. Would make a very interesting documentary.
Whilst I don't think we could emulate them, the gulf between our cultures would be revealing.
Scotland, Let's have a look at what you could have won!
107

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/01/2008 13:52:45
107. Strange, Norway has twice topped the UN standrad of living league...
108

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/01/2008 13:53:27
117 erm, that is a fakey at 40 Davie. He is as Ayrshire as was warm beer and cricket
109

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire coast 24/01/2008 13:59:51
120 fakey at 40, ah well, gave me the chance to make some points, can hootsman moderator not remove fakey and Engish voice ?
110

malkster,

Scotland 24/01/2008 14:07:55
#116

We are not getting a new trident just 3 new submarines.
111

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 24/01/2008 14:09:30
So much spin on trams above by SNP supporters.

The fact is that the opposition parties voted for it. The SNP executive could still have turned it down,but to buy Margos support, to stop a vote of no confidence early in their power, they passed it.

The Trams will be Edinburgh 2nd disgrace, they will damage historic buildings, create congestion, herald congestion charging and SNP allowed it through. The money spent should be written off and the half a billion left spent in a better way.
112

morris,

edinburgh 24/01/2008 14:10:12
92

Peter Hain has resigned but....................he says he will be exonerated. HE will!

The procedures which were required to investigate wrong doing were never completed according to the Herald,Wendy Hain and all the other Labour sleazy gravy trained sponges will all walk away ,effectively innocent even though WE KNOW THEY ARE GUILTY.If this proves to be correct ,dare we accept this? I say NO!
Labour have not only to be removed from office,they have to face investigation and custodial sentences where appropriate or the law is an ASS and the Electoral Commission must also be investigated with the same outcome if thats what is deemed necessary.You can have a verdict (like we have in Scotland) of Not Proven (because there was insufficient evidence),but you cannot have what is in effect a verdict of Not Proven when the evidence exists and confirms their guilt !Thats a miscarriage of justice and by design or intention .THERE IS NO JUSTICE IN EFFECT .
113

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 24/01/2008 14:13:22
#68 Malkster

Does it disturb you that you are unable to pigeon-hole them? Why is that so important to you?
114

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/01/2008 14:15:18
122 Oh good. Will the vulnerable 2 year olds and abused women that Wendy is so concerned about be able to go on day trips on these £30 billion WMD submarines? Or are New Labour priorities just sickening, right wing and hypocritical?
115

malkster,

Scotland 24/01/2008 14:22:26
#125

No it does not bother me at all, I simply disagree with lots of their policies.

#126
They are not cocsting £30 billion and I was merely pointing out that we are not replacing the trident system just building new submarines. By your arguement lets scrap all the armed forces and spend it all on domestic policies.
116

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 24/01/2008 14:26:43
#123 Graham You totally miss the subtle point. Salmond won a strategic victory over the trams. He will now sit back and watch the opposition parties squirm as the costs soar. Either way, he wins.
117

malkster,

Scotland 24/01/2008 14:27:35
127

Scotland is the most violent country in the world? Rubbish and even if it was how would this get better if we were independent?
118

malkster,

Scotland 24/01/2008 14:28:38
#129

You syccophants make me sick, he LOST over trams and I am gutted as it is one of the few things I agree with him about.
119

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 24/01/2008 14:29:29
#128, so what you are saying is that your post #68 was just p i s h then? Thought so.
120

Miss H,

24/01/2008 14:36:38
122 That is a bit disengenuous Malkster. Replacing the submarines is the first stage but the missiles and warheads will also have to be renewed. I am sure you know that the plan is for the UK to join the US programme to extend the life of the American-made D5 Trident missiles into the 2040s - seeing as how our 'independent' nuclear deterrent is actually American not British at all.....
121

megz,

glasgow 24/01/2008 14:36:53
when it comes to the trams the majority of people in edinburgh voted lib/lab/tory therefore you must conclude that the majority of people in edinburgh want the trams so you can really argue. If however those who voted for the lib/lab/tory and didn't want the trams well it is your own fault isn't it.
122

David MacVicar,

web 24/01/2008 14:37:26
107 Chairman Gordon,"I often wonder why people like you don't just go and live..."

You often wonder because, like your unionist friends, your concept of this country stretches only as far as what is capable while remaining subservient of another larger State. You therefore think if we want better acheivement or to admire other countries successes, Scots should just leave to get it (indeed many have, and is indicitive in itself of Union failure: why else have so many left?).

If you are open to all possibilites then the scope for success and failure is much greater but so are our options. The union for the most of the last century has been holding Scotland back. Some of the ways employed have been very serious indeed (to such an extent that we had to go to the UN to officially show the many democratic and human rights breaches perpetuated by thre UK Government contraventing internally acceptable norms - Scottish-UN committee for example. Unless - maybe you think refusing to acknowledge the signatures of 2 thirds of our electorate demanding home rule etc is a Union dividend?)

The UK is certainly not going to strive to attain many of the successes of Scandanavian countries since it goes completely against its policy to remain a 'Power' of some kind; with all its consequnces.

The UK needs Scotland much more than Scotland needs the UK (and I dont mean England). UK-lite would of course remain a world leading State in many areas, but politically, the political UK_lite state will not have the same clout.

So, we can and we will look at our neighbours for inspiration since the unionists ideas of aspiration in Scotland are so lacking and so compromising they are damaging.
123

Miss H,

24/01/2008 14:38:03
131

Losing the odd vote is a fact of life with minority government. However they did very sensibly ensure that any cost over-runs will not be passed on to the Scottish taxpayer.
124

malkster,

Scotland 24/01/2008 14:38:25
#133

The missiles and warheads both have a service life until 2040 it is the Submarines that need replaced. The Uk has complete control over our deterrent.
125

megz,

glasgow 24/01/2008 14:38:46
that should say 'cant really argue'
126

Miss H,

24/01/2008 14:41:25
107 Have you not done your homework yet? Where are those facts and figures?

127

malkster,

Scotland 24/01/2008 14:50:09
#139

Was that question for me?
128

David MacVicar,

web 24/01/2008 14:55:34
127 Jackie Priest,
You make many intersting observations but where the héll did "fact Scotland is the most violent country in the world" come out of?

I cant remember seeing any UN sites warning of these dangers to potential tourists? Unlike dozens of other countries I could think of in about 2 seconds.

As for the rest of the post, pretty much agree :)
129

David MacVicar,

web 24/01/2008 15:19:42
124 morris,

Hains case has at least been forwarded to the police.

Wendys case came to light much earlier,
its pretty much the same crime, just smaller scale,
she admitted breaking the law.

Her case has not been forwarded to the police AFAIK?
I guess part of the EC delay in Scotland is because of Hains case suddenly forcing them to actually go through a thorough investigation of some sort.
This 'methodology' leaked issue is partly a smokescreen imo.

The EC is looking in worse shape in Scotland as each day passes. Wendy will avoid prosecution and she will manage to just about hold onto her coronation crown, she is certainly not however an electable FM and neither is she an effective leader.

The dominoes are falling.
130

megz,

glasgow 24/01/2008 15:32:21
douglas alexander? the calamity kid you have to be joking.
131

Unimpressed one,

24/01/2008 15:46:32
#3 "To assuage the Greens, he said the Scottish Government would in future insist on a "carbon" assessment of the next spending review and repeated it would not continue the £6 million fund to set up new airline routes to and from Scotland." Just what Scotland needs right enough. Proof that we are stupid enough to buckle in to the eco-loons. What a bloody farce!
132

David MacVicar,

web 24/01/2008 16:03:14
151 clarry,
I mentioned yesterday on the Herald that Wendys major fault was getting the scale all wrong.

To become ministerial material you need to defraud in terms of hundeds of thousands, spoil peoples votes by hundreds of thousands, lose the personal details of millions, or squander public money to the tune of Billions.

She just dipped her toes in, and has a way to go yet in her ministerial apprenticeship.
133

Katty,

Bannockburn 24/01/2008 16:13:29

Chairman Gordon
Who are you trying to kid ..You worked with labour every chance you got, chums at the plumbs
Knocking every SNP suggestion aside to please your unionist cronies even when you knew the suggestions were right.
Well Gordy the Tartan idiots as you once called them are being listened to now. Neither Blue Green Red or yellow They are TARTAN A mix of all of these colours. Scots through and through Not British Red White and Blue. TARTAN What party it matters not, as long as they are TARTAN

And Parliament got the Budget through it's 1st stage thanks to clever people, in OUR parliament. The Margo girl, Tartan as they come and clever, The Tartan Tories who showed they can be clever too. sometimes.

You say you are qualified, you are qualified to do nothing, because you will not listen. If it is not a London thought, it is not worth paying attention to. So you think.

Your type has kept Scotland back for 300 years. BEGONE
GORDY. How about Sweden. lots of blonds there.
134

Florence,

Edinburgh 24/01/2008 16:32:23
53 FM: I think the Lib Dems had their instructions from Ming Campbell and Co. in London not to form a coalition with the Nats. Otherwise, what possible explanation can there be? It was quite astounding that they didn't and they were bound to know it would lead to oblivion in Scotland.
135

Sedov,

Scotland 24/01/2008 16:32:44
#154 Katty, bet you haven't got as much tartan things as I have. I have

Two tartan scarves
a tartan pillow
A tartan bedspread
a tartan bed ( not my wife)
a tartan doll piper
a tartan tea spoon
A tartan caddy
A tartan shirt
a tartan waistcoat
a jacket and a coat with tartan linings
3 tartan kilts
a tartan viynl table top
a tartan record cover ( alexander brothers)
A tartan ash tray
A tartan covered autograph book signed by Calum Kennedy

Thse items will all be buried along with me and the hopes and dreams of Scottish nationalism.
136

weh,

24/01/2008 16:34:36
Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Nicol Stephen said Mr Hain's resignation from the Cabinet left many serious questions still unanswered.

He added: "The storm clouds are gathering for Labour.

"Today's events clearly have serious consequences for the other Labour politicians who face accusations about inappropriate or illegal donations."



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA............

Aberdeen byepass, Nicol??

Stench of slease Nicol??

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
137

AJ Fife,

24/01/2008 16:57:40
Davesubsea,

It's more likely to be:

Dear Wendy,

Drap me in it and you're toast!

Yours sincerely

Gordon Brown
138

The Master,

24/01/2008 17:17:57
#157 Florence: the real reason that the Libs didn’t form a coalition with the Nats is that they calculated that they would never get back in with Labour if they did that (and, over the long term, Labour will be in office far more often than the Nats). I know that it is looking increasingly likely that the Nats will win the next election (and quite possibly even the one after that!), but it’s almost certain that they will eventually go the way of the former Lib-Lab coalition. I used to think the reason was the Nats’ insistence on promoting that independence agenda of theirs, but their leadership have become so adept at fudging it that I now think this couldn’t possibly have been the reason.

#158 Sedov: I have a tartan scarf, but that's it (and it's become a bit tatty over the years, a bit like the SNP's hopes of ever achieving separation!) Glad to hear that at least there's one unreconstructed commy idealist still on the go.
139

AM4,

Larne 24/01/2008 19:06:24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh1z6JqMPLc&feature=related

Enjoy!
140

J.M.,

Cupar 24/01/2008 19:11:54
The ridiculous Tavish Scott accuses the Conservatives of "selling their votes to the SNP". This must rank as the most hypocritical political posturing in recent Scottish history. In a desperate attempt to hang on to the appearance of importance the "Glib Dems" have been selling all pretence of principle to the Labour Party since the inception of the Scottish Parliament.

Tavish and crew are a sad joke!
141

Richardinho,

24/01/2008 19:14:29
'I don’t deny that Scotland could go it alone'

Exactly-so why not?
142

HEN BROON 5,

24/01/2008 19:18:48
112 Chairman Gordon,Bannockburn 24/01/2008 13:38:59
#109-
"I worked in Scottish local government for 22 years. After seeing how all these 'People's Parties' like Labour, the SNP and Liberals REALLY work behind closed doors, I'm qualified to make an assumption about independence not improving Scotland, because the same bunch of congenital wasters would be running it then as now.
I don't do 'pie-in-sky'."


Big claims from a security guard. As 154 Katty,Bannockburn 24/01/2008 16:13:29 said you are qualified for nothing, so keep on patrolling, the nation needs patrolmen to guard the empty factories your brand of politics created.

"I don't do 'pie-in-sky'." Utter rubbish people like you live on pies. In the sky on the floor you eat them any where you find them.

ALBA GU BRATH.
143

Conan the Librarian™,

24/01/2008 19:22:09
Not commenting on the Hain resignation AM2?

The only unionist with the instestinal fortitude to do so, so far is Nikostratos.

I'm sure I'll see you there.
144

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 24/01/2008 19:22:13
#170 AM2 writes:-

"Being part of Britain in no way diminishes Scotland’s nationhood. Rather it enhances it, in particular by magnifying our influence globally."


Who is exactly is the "our" whose influence is being magnified globally?
145

,

24/01/2008 19:29:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
146

,

24/01/2008 19:32:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
147

,

24/01/2008 19:37:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
148

Richardinho,

24/01/2008 19:39:10
'Because in our opinion, Scotland is better off in Britain, and indeed Britain is a better place for containing Scotland. It really is that simple!'

Your opinion is wrong. People and countries are always better off when they take control of their own affairs rather than trust other people to do it for them.
149

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA GU BRATH 24/01/2008 19:40:04
Alternative take





« Previous « PreviousNext » Next »
View GalleryKevon Williamson suggests democracy trumps patriotism

PETER MacMahon (Opinion, 22 January ) is stating the obvious when he writes that constitutional issues are at the centre of Scottish politics. However, his understanding of the changing political landscape leaves a lot to be desired. Peter claims that the SNP believes "that support for independence equates with patriotism". Then he scratches his head wondering why the SNP cannot comprehend "that one can be a Scottish patriot and not support independence".

This back-to-front analysis fails to understand that a large proportion – perhaps even the majority – of the people who now support Scottish independence may do so for democratic reasons rather than purely nationalistic or patriotic ones.

Independence will bring democracy closer to the Scottish people, thereby moving us closer to the ideal of face-to-face government. This is something that the remote autocratic government in London has never done. Independence would also break up the warmongering Orwellian state that Britain has become into four brand new democratic spaces, all of which have the potential to be filled by initiative, resourcefulness and imagination.

These are democratic reasons for independence, not purely patriotic ones. These two, often overlapping, rationales give much greater critical mass to the desire for independence than Peter realises.


ALBA GU BRATH........
150

HEN BROON 5,

24/01/2008 19:41:10
Sorry meant to link #181....
http://news.scotsman.com/politics/Alternative-take.3699702.jp#2400502
151

HEN BROON 5,

24/01/2008 19:43:10
179 Jwil,Lanarkshire 24/01/2008 19:37:20



A nice filleting job well done, that has seen it of ;o)
152

Nikostratos,

24/01/2008 19:44:51
#175 Conan the Librarian™,

Hold on with the 'unionist' label Conan everything seems to be going so t-ts up all over with the U.K economy and the Conservatives seemingly to be making a comeback.

That i am wondering if it is possible to support a 'Union' back under Tory hegemony............Having been through that veil of tears I don't in all honesty want to even give the Tory's another chance......If push comes to shove and the Tory's become the Government once again then i should have to consider Independence a serious option.......

My hope is that a revival of labour miraculously comes about.......

But at the end of the day I can never see me supporting a Conservative ruled United Kingdom it is just for me beyond my worst nightmare...........

153

Conan the Librarian™,

24/01/2008 20:34:10
184
Labour is a spent force Niko. And as for the Lib-Dems...

SNP is the only choice, until Independence, then you can vote for any party you want.

Evening Chairman.Thought of any more brutalist abominations to bulldoze:-)
154

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 24/01/2008 20:40:35
AMtwa did indeed let his mask slip when he wrote "our" at post no 174.

He'e obviously never seen the Great Escape.
155

Conan the Librarian™,

24/01/2008 20:43:53
188
The Royalist "we" perhaps?

And he does talk "we" on occasion;-)
156

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 24/01/2008 20:44:50
AMtwa, that was the moment when the Nazi authorities at the train station spoke to Gordon Jackson's character in English and he gave an auto response in same said language.
157

Conan the Librarian™,

24/01/2008 20:47:01
189 re 175
Only if it's Alex Salmond?
158

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 24/01/2008 20:49:25
I'm not much of a granpatician either, AMtwa but you always spoke for yourself before. Or are you the night shift?
159

Conan the Librarian™,

24/01/2008 20:53:30
192
Grammar?
"And indeed Britain is a better place for containing Scotland. It really is that simple!"

"Containing Scotland"

"To hold or keep within limits"

"Restrain: To halt the spread or development of"
160

quepasache,

Caracas 24/01/2008 21:01:36
Hey Godon and Am2. You are behaving like gringo losers. You are not as schizo as you appear. You are intelligent english gentlemen telling the truth - no nee d to get deperately abusive. You are not functionaires who ake th early retirement and get abused bu your wives.
161

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 24/01/2008 21:02:46
On topic, I'm glad to see the budget going through. The SNP has to deliver though. I shall keep my options open. Thought the voting was predictable.

Can't wait to see the moment Labour votes for an SNP motion - then I will know they have grown up.
162

Conan the Librarian™,

24/01/2008 21:17:39
192
Grammar?
"And indeed Britain is a better place for containing Scotland. It really is that simple!"

"Containing Scotland"

"To hold or keep within limits"

"Restrain: To halt the spread or development of"
163

Conan the Librarian™,

24/01/2008 21:21:06
What happened there?

I wrote a totally different post yet 195 appeared again.

(Wasn't intentional AM2)
164

Conan the Librarian™,

24/01/2008 21:23:31
Chairman, soon...

http://www.skakagrall.com/images/stj2.jpg
165

Conan the Librarian™,

24/01/2008 21:27:11
203
Aye that'll be it.

HeHe. Couldn't resist it AM2.
166

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 24/01/2008 21:27:14
Perhaps 'incorporating Scotland' might have been a better choice AM2, 'containing' infers 'contained, caged, restrained'.

Unless of course you were going for, 'Britain is a better place for containing extra vitamins and Scotland.'

Ho hum, anyhoo isn't it good to see the budget get through without essential services being ground to a halt.
167

Conan the Librarian™,

24/01/2008 21:30:32
209
Aye...It must go!
168

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 24/01/2008 21:44:49
#208
Feller, do you ever reply without that nasty wee edge?

My post was tongue in cheek.

Have your super powers of divination wilted somewhat?
169

Conan the Librarian™,

24/01/2008 21:46:17
211
Do you have a Bentley called Fido?
170

snecked,

Argyll 24/01/2008 21:50:11
Everybody is forgetting that someone in the Labour Party slyly changed the source of the illegal donation (because they knew it was illegal) thus trying to achieve a fraud.
I cannot understand why this wasn't immediately dealt with by the polis.
A whitewash of any sort will leave Windy Wendy as a real lame duck leader of Labour in the Scottish parliament. Oh joy!
171

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 24/01/2008 21:58:02
#219 The C11 is a thing of beauty, but can it turn into a gay disco dancing robot?

My old DS finally parted chassis and body on Dumbarton Road circa 1996...mope.
172

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 24/01/2008 22:01:01
Chairman, might I suggest you stop hanging around dark street corners in a hat, lighting your pipe and get into your Citroen and chase some Labour criminals?
173

Phil C,

24/01/2008 22:01:28
#180 Ridharderso

What a stupid perception!
174

Conan the Librarian™,

24/01/2008 22:02:29
Biker me.

A GL1000 was my shiny black zenith, though I loved a BSA C15.
175

Phil C,

24/01/2008 22:06:13
#223

What a stupid b'stard whoever said 'Because in our opinion, Scotland is better off in Britain, and indeed Britain is a better place for containing Scotland. It really is that simple!' is! Sorry Richardinho!!
176

Conan the Librarian™,

24/01/2008 22:06:35
...And my nadir was a Jawa 350.Loved and hated in equal measures.
177

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 24/01/2008 22:08:44
AMtwa tried it on me once about the difference between wrongdoing and guilty. This was in his defense of Wa Alexander. My Thesaurus listed both words together.

Now he tries to defend himself against containment.

He really should be more careful with what he writes.
178

Phil C,

24/01/2008 22:08:54
Anyone who tells everyone about their old car (and thinks they might be interested) is an erse!! Time for some lessons in life.
179

Phil C,

24/01/2008 22:11:52
#229 Jeez!, I might have known it was you (quelle surprise!!). Most people who don't agree agree with me are stupid!! It's been proved over many years.
180

Phil C,

24/01/2008 22:14:07
I'm not insulting anyone. You're a bit fierce tonight! I just don't think talking about old bangers is valid on threads like this. Go to the pub if you want that sort of thing.
181

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 24/01/2008 22:15:57
#231 Phil C, you sound like you like talking about erse, so let me tell you all about the DeTomaso Pantera I drove from Glasgow to Pisa. Are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin.

It all began on a cold wet Glasgow morning when a little Italian man walked into the showroom and in halting English explained that he'd been stopped speeding by the police and they wouldn't let him drive his car back to Italy......
182

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 24/01/2008 22:18:06
Chairman, I've got a Citroen Xantia. Not a Maigret one but a knight of the road. I won't tell you the speed I was doing but it took the reversed baseball caps in their souped up Escort on the A9 on a left hand bend at the end of a dual-carriageway. They were speeding up to stop me overtaking.

Bet your Citroen doesn't do 135mph with a tad to spare.
183

Conan the Librarian™,

24/01/2008 22:20:20
228
Lovely bike.Shoite brakes.

Was a greaser,long hair,beard,earring,leathers.My moniker WAS my actual nickname...
Remember talking to an American outside a pub one day.
"What do you do for a living?" Says he.
I reply.
"Hey I was only asking!" says he, and went off in the huff.
184

Phil C,

24/01/2008 22:20:59
#237 Oscar..

....and?
185

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 24/01/2008 22:22:57
Hmmmm? Wonder if the French would still be making cars if their government was in Berlin?
186

Phil C,

24/01/2008 22:23:03
#238 AMTOOMUCHTOSAY

Good night
187

Miss H,

24/01/2008 22:28:49
AM2 170 sometimes I really wonder about you. The EU is nothing like the UK and I am sure you know that perfectly well.

I don’t think that there are very many countries like the UK. In fact I do not think there are any exact parallels. You could make a kind of case for Spain or Belgium but there are more differences than similarities.

It is quite misleading to talk about federal unions as though that is the kind of set up that exists here. The UK does not have a federal system and is not likely to either , no matter that some people would like to see federalism as a half way house between the union and independence.

As for the other nationalist movements you list – well, I have been to conferences with some of these guys and they are actually nothing like the SNP. They belong to what I call the Europe of a thousand flags tradition. They are decentralists first and foremost rather than nationalists. I think you are right that some of them would actually like to see nation states disintegrate. The SNP is not like that. We don’t want to see nation states disintegrate – we want to be a nation state. We want to join the club, not close it down. That is the thing we are aiming at, had you not realised that?
188

Phil C,

24/01/2008 22:31:54
I've got a three year old VW Passat that needs a good clean. How f..king interesting is that??
189

Conan the Librarian™,

24/01/2008 22:36:38
250
"Apparently the best configuration you can buy is the 140bhp 2 litre turbodiesel allied to the double clutch DSG flappy paddle gearbox."

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.........
190

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 24/01/2008 22:37:17
Chairman. Loved the Maigret car ever sinse the TV programme. Seen the white one they use for weddings that you are talking about. (Me FK5 postcode)

I can afford a new car but cannot see any reason to get rid of my Xantia. I have had Peugots, a Renault and now the Citroen. S reg but only 74ooo on the clock. It's a dream to drive and the hydraulic suspension means it's hardly likely to be stolen in a hurry.
191

Miss H,

24/01/2008 22:39:02
I've got a zonecard.

I reckon Chairman Gordon at least would qualify for a free bus pass.
192

Phil C,

24/01/2008 22:44:59
#251 Teaboy Gordon

Some of us agree with Miss H that the likes of you and your car-hugging brethren talk pish most of the time. You've been bombarded with so much common sense and it still seems to bounce off you. No hope!!
193

Roberta Burns,

24/01/2008 22:46:45
231 Phil C,24/01/2008 22:08:54
Anyone who tells everyone about their old car (and thinks they might be interested) is an erse!! Time for some lessons in life.

Erse is the Irish Gaelic!!!!!!!
So, if I told you I had a wee Renault, you would call me an Irish language????? Time for some lessons in grammar
194

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 24/01/2008 22:47:02
Miss H. I get my bus pass in 16 months. Will probably still be doing 85 on the M9 (unless some asshole tries the funny biz) then.
195

Phil C,

24/01/2008 22:49:10
#259 Roberta

Irish grammar? Naa?
196

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 24/01/2008 22:50:11
Roberta @ 259. And your contribution to the topic at the top of the page is, eh?
197

Roberta Burns,

24/01/2008 23:06:54
The tartan tories have awakened from their long socialist sleep to show their true colours. Watch them go.
198

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 24/01/2008 23:16:35
264, Roberta.

Wow. That was some statement. Do you write scripts for Wendy Alexander?
199

Roberta Burns,

24/01/2008 23:26:01
On the contrary, I despise new labour and have enormous respect for Alex Salmond's political skills and his commitment. He got the SNP elected by appealing the average Scot, who are traditionally socialist. He has filled the gap left by the demise of labour. But, I do worry that if the SNPs traditional support keep demanding concession he will have no option but to go down the tory route.
200

Conan the Librarian™,

24/01/2008 23:40:29
266
So what Roberta.If it leads to Independence, fine.

After Independence we can vote for any shade of government WE want, not dependant on the SE of England.
201

Roberta Burns,

24/01/2008 23:46:15
Conan, I think you miss the point. If the SNP take on the tartan tory halter, there will be no independence. If Scots are capable of one thing, it's spotting a tory a mile away.
202

Roberta Burns,

25/01/2008 00:15:44
I also have traditionally favoured independence for more than 30 years, but voted Labour (real Labour) because the SNP were known as the Tartan Tories then. I would hate to see them acquiring the same tag now after all Alex's hard work. I just think the Trump debacle and hand-in-hand with the dreaded tories won't do them any good in the long term.
203

Conan the Librarian™,

25/01/2008 00:36:53
271
Perhaps you missed my point.
In an Independant Scotland we will have to cater to all shades of politics.
The Traditional Tories, will be replaced by a Conservative but not Unionist party.
The far left favour Independence.It's Broon's New Labour
that doesn't.
204

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 25/01/2008 10:40:20
# 3 et al - you cannot be serious - free care for the elderly, ending tuition fees, free dental and eye checks - you are so dishonest in your assessment of what happened during the first few years of devolution. The very fact there were successful policy initiatives since 1999 provided the platform for an SNP victory this time round assisted by the Labour partys internal incompetence and an unpopular Irag war - thats the fact of the matter.

This "unholy" alliance, perhaps demonstrating the Tartan Tory brigade has raised its ugly head again in the SNP, will not last. Sure Mr Swinney has made them a few pledges but we're already seeing what these add up to in terms of actual delivery. Intitiatives to reveiw this and review that is not action, simply hot air, so take a reality check all you foolish people who voted SNP on the 3rd May?

 

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