Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Salmond under pressure over Local Income Tax Bill

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 03 September 2008
By David Maddox
ALEX Salmond, the First Minister, was last night challenged to clarify his position on three flagship policies relating to climate change, replacing the council tax and building new schools and hospitals.
The call from opposition parties came ahead of the Scottish Government's legislative programme being announced by Mr Salmond this morning.

Much of the pressure is coming from the Scottish Conservatives and Greens, the two parties the SNP relied o
n to get their budget through parliament.

The Tories want ministers to put forward a bill on the local income tax, amid widespread speculation that LIT will be dropped because of almost universal opposition from organisations across Scotland.

"Whatever else he does, Alex Salmond needs to clear up what his government is going to do on the discredited local income tax plans," said Derek Brownlee, the Tories' finance spokesman.

"Will he publish the LIT Bill, as he said he would, or will he ditch it?"

Meanwhile, the Green MSP Patrick Harvie has demanded the long-awaited climate change bill is finally brought forward.

And Labour is pushing for news about starting the Scottish Futures Trust (SFT), the organisation that the Scottish Government intends to use to fund vital infrastructure projects. John Swinney, the finance secretary, had said he would set up an arms-length SFT company over the summer recess, but nothing has happened.

Cathy Jamieson, a candidate for the Scottish Labour leadership, said: "While the SNP prevaricates on the SFT, schools are not being built, hospitals are not being improved and Fifers are still waiting for news of how the second crossing of the Forth will be paid for."



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 02 September 2008 11:49 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

Senga Jean,

03/09/2008 00:06:54
Simple really. Let Westminster release the money due. A budget is still the same whether parts of it are called something else. The same size of pot is required to cover the same expenditure. Labour are just making mischief for the ordinary people of Scotland. LIT is not rocket science!
2

ThomasP,

03/09/2008 00:13:35
Wait till the Tories are in power, the SNP will gain alot of the seats in Scotland then we can have LIT.
3

,

03/09/2008 00:14:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

8/10 Cats,

03/09/2008 00:19:25
Or maybe instead Alex Slamond and the SNP could clarify their positions on reserved matters and foreign policy?

ANYTHING but things they actually promised to do.

The SNP promised to clarify their position on things they CAN'T do. Could they just talk about that some more? This being in power thing could backfire on them if they are asked to work properly.


How about ancient chess pieces? Could we bicker about that? Or a tartan week in NY with a photo in national geographic, OH god Scottish politic is booooring, the SNP want to play international grandstanding and professional agitators some more.
5

ThomasP,

03/09/2008 00:29:31
#4

Troll.
6

8/10 Cats,

03/09/2008 00:34:34
5

Nonsense. The SNP actually released last week they did have time to offer opinions and clarifications on the Scottish Government's positions on reserved matters.

Why don't they have time to do that for the work they should be doing?

The SNP are as bad as Labour. Unable to work unsupervised and to dead lines while prioritising resources. They are like spotty teengagers with saturday jobs.

Apart from promoting sausages and cycling around like idiots. That is them pretending to be celebrities. But as for work, forget it. They are our leaders not our civil servants.
7

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/09/2008 00:36:12


Everything still nicely on track for the SNP and increasing their support in the polls. Lovely.More polce on the streets, new schools, scrapping parking fees,4.5 million extension to the A9 and that was only in 2 days. No wonder people all over Scotland are starting to talk of independence.
8

muppetfinder,

03/09/2008 00:40:30
"widespread speculation that LIT will be dropped " only MADdox is speculating since most people want LIT only rich journalists and snout in the trough oposition MSPs don't
9

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/09/2008 00:43:11
8 out of 10 trolls prefer the unionist whiiiiiiiinge.
10

walter,

03/09/2008 00:50:54
#1
From the SNPs manifesto.
We know from the most recent UK budget that the Comprehensive Spending Review will
allocate an additional £1.8 billion to the Scottish block. We will use this additional resource
to invest in the frontline with a particular focus on health, education and tackling crime.
The Scottish budget process for 2007-08 is well under way and there is only limited room for
manoeuvre. However, with anticipated underspends of £200 million and a Scottish reserve
of unallocated money worth some £800 million, there is a pool of potential available resources
of £1 billion for next year. This provides the flexibility to allow us to deliver on new policy
priorities.

An additional £1.8 billion allocated on top of what the previuos previous block grant was plus £200 million from the underspend of the last block grant plus £800 million from the Scottish reserve that they have claimed totals £2.8 billion.
Yet you are trying to claim Westminster have not given them the same as they gave Labour.

11

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/09/2008 00:51:08
While Salmond is having the tough erm time of being asked a question on LIT..the UK is the ONLY country of the G7 to fall into recession with the UK pound also hitting an all time low against the euro yesterday

Now there is real UK progress fro the Prime Minsiter and the UK eh 8/10.
12

Eddie Tait,

London 03/09/2008 01:18:09
Is it really necessary to overhaul Council Tax system when we should be investing more in road, air and rail infrastructure?
Aye,
Eddie
Founder
Scotsin.com - Scottish Business and People Network
13

Edward,

03/09/2008 01:28:22
Simon Pia must be back from his hols, as he is coming out with this drivel breifing for David Maddox.
14

karinxxx,

03/09/2008 04:09:06
another boring lets kick lit article by the scotsman.

anyone actually wanting to find out what you would probably pay under lit should use this calculator form.

http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/AF3int/an/default.aspx/RenderForm/?F.Name=EVYys4iyhHj

i did it and found i would pay less.
15

Royster,

03/09/2008 04:41:13
#1. Yes, very simple in your hoppity bunny world. However, in order to get council tax rebate you need to pay council tax. This isn't some dodgy third world country where money is moved haphazardly from one account to another.
16

democracy,

Scottish Borders 03/09/2008 04:41:15
8/10 Cats, Oh dear, more tantrums from the wee SNP hater who wants his beloved Unionist party back in power, but actually doesn't really know why!

Your party is NOT in power in Scotland for a good reason, you would do well to remember that!
17

democracy,

Scottish Borders 03/09/2008 04:52:11
Here we go again, wanting to stop The SNP government from improving on the injustice of the insidious council tax to help the Scottish people but of course have NO answers themselves other than keeping the unfair ever increasing council tax, as is!

No wonder the rest of you are not wanted anymore!!
18

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 03/09/2008 05:00:59
8/10 cats, don't let the facts get in the way of your truth! you sound a bit like a proffesional politican?
when the new labour ship finally sinks in november, and it will, gordon will resign just before christmas! an early general election in may 2009! this is the end of true blue labour party! less than a year to 40+ snp mp's going to westminster! let the games commence!
19

Royster,

03/09/2008 05:35:17
Looks like the SNP has peaked. The trend now is gradually down.
20

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/09/2008 06:11:45
19:

yes down the road to inependence and no more union..great.
21

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 03/09/2008 07:23:42
#19 You know, if you keep saying it and saying it and saying it, maybe one day the polls will back you up instead of proving the exact opposite like they keep stubbornly doing. But I wouldn't hold your breath.
22

The Tin Man,

03/09/2008 07:31:44
Independence has very little to do with LIT, the SFT, and climate change. Independence is an issue of ethnicity. If a region feels suffciently ethnically homogeneous, and sufficiently 'different' from the rest of a country, then so be it.

The opposition party's are quite rightly asking the government what their plans are on these major issues. That is part of their job.
23

westcider,

Isle of Lewis 03/09/2008 07:39:22
Today we learn that the Scottish economy is NOT in recession, yesterday we learned that there is a huge investment being pumped into Scotland's renewables industry,and later we will find out the government's legislative programme for the year ahead.All good positive stuff, so it doesn't suit Mr Oyster and 8/10ths of a poossy. Shame.
24

Alan Reid,

NZ 03/09/2008 07:41:26
"Salmond under pressure over Local Income Tax Bill"
Eh, no Mr Salmond is under NO pressure, a sure sign he and the SNP are leading the country well, and the people know it.
25

Linda,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 08:10:19
We have had no alternatives to Local Income Tax from the critics of Local Income Tax only wooley proposals to have more rebates which highlights the inherent unfairness of the Council Tax which increased by 60% under the previous Labour administration.
26

Grahamski,

Falkirk 03/09/2008 08:13:18
25
The majority of people in Scotland are in favour of a local tax which is less than they are paying now. You think? This quite frankly is becoming boring. Like particularly dull students the nationalist posters on here parrot the government propaganda by rote, failing to explain how all the independent experts are wrong and Mr Swinney is right. 3% LIT will not deliver our services. Think at least 4.5%. Fact.
27

Grahamski,

Falkirk 03/09/2008 08:16:00
26
Linda,
How does having a tax rebate highlight an inherent unfairness?
Or are you just spouting government propaganda without thinking about what you are actually saying?
28

shivago8,

livingston 03/09/2008 08:47:52
3.4.6. cats,You need to change your treatment,the present drugs you are on seemingly have the wrong effect and have a depressing attitude on you.

Try the convential treatments
29

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/09/2008 08:59:09
My one piece of advice to the Scottish Government is to scrap the costly and useless policy of reducing class sizes.
30

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/09/2008 09:03:38
#19 royster

In your little dream-world royster.

I do sense your despair though. trolling is always a sure sign of this!
31

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 09:13:36
The LIT may well be the rock on which the minority Nationalist Government founders?
32

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/09/2008 09:14:23
The LIT will be brought forward. I predict that the Libdems will support it and it will win a vote in the parliament with the minor parties either supporting it or abstaining.

The LIT will prove popular to the electorate and will be a great campaigning issue for the SNP in the Glenrothes by-election.

Let's just remind ourselves of the Labour policy.

Q: What will you do with the Council Tax system?

A: We will reform it!

Q: In what way will you reform it?

A: Ehhh... Dunno

Q: But surely you must have a policy on this, surely you must have thought this through?

A: Let's be very, very clear on this...(botton lip begins to quiver)
33

The Tin Man,

03/09/2008 09:21:42
#38 connaughtboy

So you do not believe in any form of personal property taxation, whatsoever, and you think that is should all be lumped onto income tax, and that is should be collected and divvied-up from the centre?
34

Publius,

London 03/09/2008 09:37:22
Tories are right about one thing. LIT will need to be approved during 2008/09, if it is to come in in 2011.

Same is true about referendum bill. It will be need approval soon if there is to be a referendum in 2010.

So far the SNP government has governed by relying on executive power. From now on it will need parliamentary approval for most of the things it says it will do. This is where the going gets sticky.
35

Publius,

London 03/09/2008 09:40:28
#31 connaughtboy

Could be you're right. There's not a lot of evidence linking class size with children's learning performance.

Another way of saving money would be to cut back on cleaning and make the children clean their own classrooms as they do in most Asian countries. This is good training for life. And Japanese schools are a lot cleaner than than Scottish schools.
36

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

03/09/2008 09:42:01
LIT may be superficially attractive but fails particularly on the keys issues of accountability and efficiency. There is no link between actual taxation and expenditure because local councils won't actually set the LIT rate.

Local Councils will have absolutely no incentive to cut local expenditure. It eliminates any motivation for fiscal prudence and effective local government. The critical financial relationship between electors and local government would vanish. In reality we would be burdened in perpetuity with the present high levels of local expenditure. Even if a local council managed to achieve efficiency savings there would be no mechanism of repatriating said savings to taxpayers.
37

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

03/09/2008 09:43:43
I should add that I don't particularly support the retention of Council tax either.

It at the very least needs reforming if not replaced.

Certainly an argument could be made to bring in more directed assistance for groups such as pensioners who have been worst affected by Council Tax. A case could also be made for more frequent, independent revaluations. It would be far better than the nonsense of basing bands on notional 1991 values.

Personally though I would rather have a complete rethink over local taxation and there are definitely more radical alternatives out there such a local sales tax or a local wealth tax.

Whatever system is put in place must, in my opinion, strengthen not lessen the accountability role of local taxation. However it is because the financial and functional relationship between central, Scottish and local government is so intertwined that accountability is a real problem.

In truth, since and before devolution, Scottish and central government has habitually managed its own expenditure by forcing local government to take on Scottish and central government responsibilities. Consequently, many Scottish Councils have had to raise Council tax year after year to cope with these increased financial pressures.

It is this deep-seated dilemma that must be dealt with if any logical system for local government finances is to be created. The functions and finances of local government must be divorced from those of the Scottish and central Governments.

One could argue that the problem is not Council Tax per se but much more fundamental and deep-rooted problems.
38

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/09/2008 09:44:06
#35 TTM

I believe in taxing those who can afford to pay. Property value has no direct correlation with income and Council Tax is therefore regressive.

Whether I believe in no taxation on personal property ie 2nd or 3rd homes? I'm open to ideas on that.
39

Grahamski,

Falkirk 03/09/2008 10:26:26
40
You seem to think that only 2nd or 3rd homes should qualify as 'personal property', why not simply tax property?
Most tax experts agree that the fairest and most effective way to collect taxes is to employ as wide a net as possible. This should include wealth, income and property.
The SNP's LIT policy was fine as an election bribe however it does not bear scrutiny. The rest of parliament should abstain and allow the nats to make a complete and utter mess of this.
Pathetic and irresponsible gesture politics.
40

Grahamski,

Falkirk 03/09/2008 10:28:08
Talking of pathetic posturing what do you make of our FM refusing to congratulate Team GB?
He couldn't quite bring himself to say well done to all of Britain's lads and lassies. What a bitter wee saddo.
41

Alan B,

03/09/2008 10:38:04
#connaughtboy

"I believe in taxing those who can afford to pay. Property value has no direct correlation with income and Council Tax is therefore regressive."

There tends to be a link between property value and wealth.

With LIT you have to be careful not to overload income tax. Tax on incomes is not exactly low. The overall movement to indirect taxation has allowed the uk economy to be high tax while not necessarily undermining economic performance.

Tax on income already is one of the major sources of taxation. 20% income tax plus 11% (i think have not checked lately) National Insurance. There is also the 10%(ish) National insurance employee tax. Meaning on basic rate payers incomes are already hit by something like 41% tax. Add on to that pension contributions say 7% (sometimes lower and sometimes higher), and we effectively have a tax plus pensions of something nearing 50% of earned income.
42

Conan the Librarian™,

03/09/2008 10:44:34
30
shivago8

8/10 is just a sausage troll.
43

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

03/09/2008 10:49:23
28 Grahamski,Falkirk 03/09/2008 08:16:00
By the fgact tyat you have to give rebates in the first place Dippy!!!!
44

Ananurhing,

03/09/2008 10:49:35
Talking of pathetic posturing, just seen Hamish MacDonnell on BBC news.
Apparently Scottish society is up in arms against LIT, and Salmond is powerless in Holyrood.

The arch unionists are getting quite desperate. Their squirming is increasingly looking like a failing rear gaurd action in retreat.
45

Miss H,

03/09/2008 10:52:34
Why does the Scotsman get things so wrong? There was no widespread speculation that LIT would be dropped and it hasn't been.
46

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

03/09/2008 10:56:21
37 Publius,London 03/09/2008 09:40:28

Aye and send them doon the pits oan the weekend, awa and bile yer can ya Twerp!!!

And aye there is plenty of proof that small class sizes lead to better performance from pupils, to the extent that you will find that not many 'Private Schools' have class sizes with more that 18 pupils in!!!
47

Miss H,

03/09/2008 10:56:43
39 You are completely correct when you say that since and before devolution, Scottish and central government has habitually managed its own expenditure by forcing local government to take on Scottish and central government responsibilities. Consequently, many Scottish Councils have had to raise Council tax year after year to cope with these increased financial pressures.

But you should also acknowledge that the SNP Government has pulled back from that by ending ring fencing and allowing local authorities to decide their own spending priorities within the context of the concordat agreed with COSLA.
48

Miss H,

03/09/2008 10:58:59
38 Also you make the point that 'Local Councils will have absolutely no incentive to cut local expenditure'.

They do have an incentive to become more efficient because they now keep the efficiency savings they make rather than having them clawed back by central government.
49

Alan B,

03/09/2008 11:03:33
#Rabbies Wee Bruthir

I am not against smaller class sizes but what exact proof exists that it makes in itself a big difference to childrens educational performance.

Also is it all class sizes or just for certain age groups.

Are you better with a larger class size plus a teaching assistant?

Are you not better having a larger class size and additional (remedial teachers) for more one to one teaching with kids with educational difficulties.

One of the biggest areas i could see smaller class sizes helping is for class room disipline. As such is discipline in class rooms maybe not the real issue rather than class sizes.
50

Alan B,

03/09/2008 11:06:55
#50 Miss H

The problem with that view is in traditional terms one party the tories would go and say will give you lower taxation and labour will give you higher. Now councils will just be about saying we will be more efficient.

They do not really have the opportunity to say we do not actually want to be spending this money in the first place.

Having said that in practical terms as so much funding comes from central government (about 80% i believe), then it become slightly irrelevant.
51

Ananurhing,

03/09/2008 11:11:12
I was talking with a wealthy Italian from Rome the other day. He told me he had decided to buy a property on Deeside, until he came across this thing called council tax.
He understood the concept, but couldn't get his head around the enormity of it.
He walked away from the deal solely because of this. Not that he couldn't afford it. He simply couldn't understand or justify it being so high.
Interesting how our European social democrat neighbours regard us.
52

Salmond Rushdie,

03/09/2008 11:15:19
Question to Alex Salmond:

Under independence, would the 3p LIT rate proposed by the SNP stay the same or would it change given the Scottish Block Grant/Council Tax Rebate would be abolished?

Me thinks 3p is way off the mark and the SNP need to stop thinking the the Scottish electorate are naive. We are not all gullible.
53

Grahamski,

Falkirk 03/09/2008 11:17:20
53
Strange you mention your conversation with a wealthy Italian because I was talking to an impoverished Pole the other day and he said he couldn't understand the idea of the wealthy not being taxed on their property. He said he understood the concept of LIT but couldn't get his head around how stupid the SNP had been about this. Funny old world, eh.
Look out for further conversations with our European cousins...
54

Miss H,

03/09/2008 11:17:27
52 I think that is what people want.

If you look at surveys, opinion polls and indeed voting patterns there is no evidence that people want to significantly reduce the level of personal taxation they pay. People are angry about council tax because it has risen far in excess of inflation. That's why the SNP is proposing a cut in the overall amount to be raised by local taxation but without reducing the amount that local authorities have at their disposal. Because there is no evidence that a majority of people want the services that are provided locally to be reduced - but they do want local services that are more efficient, responsive and accountable. By reducing ring fencing and giving councils greater freedom to deliver services as they see fit, rather than having to tick every box imposed on them by central government, that should happen. And I don't think we will see councils behaving in traditional left/right stereotypical ways because a) most of them are in no overall control and b) those traditional positions are increasingly meaningless anyway.
55

Miss H,

03/09/2008 11:20:44
54 Under independence the whole tax system would change I imagine. There would be no logic in keeping such a complex and labyrinthine structure as the UK tax and benefits systems in an independent Scotland surely. It would depend on who was in government whether a LIT would remain in place and whether it would remain set at 3p.
56

Alan B,

03/09/2008 11:21:36
#Salmond Rushdie

In practical terms that is abit of a silly question.

The level of any tax in the future depends on government polices and the performance of the economy.

If Scotland votes in after independence a high spending/tax government then taxes over all would rise. Which ones depends on the government.

If scotland votes in a lower tax/spending government then taxes would be less. (Yes that can lead to higher spending in the medium to longer term if lower tax improves the growth rate).

The real things that determines tax revenue is economic growth. A scottish economy that grew faster would allow more spending while if we continue with our current slow rate then we would have big deficits. (oil prices will also play a part in scotland fiscal position).
57

Salmond Rushdie,

03/09/2008 11:23:28
#53

Presumably your wealthy Italian friend from Rome earns his income outside of Scotland. So under Salmond's LIT proposal, he buy his Deeside house, use Council and not pay a penny of local taxation under the LIT mechanism. No wonder he didn't like Council Tax. He must be longing for LIT. Your friend is either tight or a parasite...
58

Alan B,

03/09/2008 11:26:30
#56 Miss H

The real evidence is the ballot box.

Also when you create a tax structure you do not do so because at one point in time opinion polls say that people do not want a tax cut. If opinion polls change then what you would have to change the tax system.

Also is that opinion polls in all areas. The idea of local democracy being that some areas may want different things. ie some may want less tax and some more public services.

As I say I think the arguement of local control of tax is abit irrelevent when so much money comes from central government anyway.
59

Salmond Rushdie,

03/09/2008 11:27:36
A typical SNP response, no solid financial justification - all if's but's and maybe's. I for one, believe we are justified to ask Salmond what his tax proposals are on independence. That includes PAYE, local taxation, corporation tax. Will it stay the same, go up, come down or does he not actually know at this stage?
60

Ananurhing,

03/09/2008 11:28:20
#55

Aye but the difference is my experience was real. Not contrived made up nonsense like yours.

Funny that, I've got Polish neighbours nearby. And they are equally scunnered and mystified by their council tax bill.
61

Alan B,

03/09/2008 11:32:06
#61 Salmond Rushdie

I agree you can ask Salmond what his policies would be. But that is a different thing of asking him to commit to what other parties would do in power, what future scottish electrates would vote for.

But turn that question round. Until Brown government spending in the uk was only know one yr to the next. Now Brown issues spending plans for 3 yrs. Should he not issue for 10yrs. Why are the uk government estimates of growth sometimes wrong and why are importantly their tax revenue projections wrong.

So you want answers from AS that the UK government could not give within the current uk structure.

Just look at the way Browns deficits projections have been so wrong. Even changing every few months.
62

Alan B,

03/09/2008 11:35:41
#Salmond Rushdie

The snp as far as I know have said the will have a 20% corporation tax. So they have already answered that one.

Why could labour fail to say before it was elected what it would do with taxation. Why did they say they would not raise income tax but soon as elected raised taxes on income.

Why did the tories say they would not raise taxes in the 90s and then do so in power? With them it was economic mismangemnt.
63

Salmond Rushdie,

03/09/2008 11:38:40
#63

I don't understand your point. I'm not referring to 'other parties', I'm referring to the SNP. Are you saying Salmond does not need to tell the Scottish electorate what his fiscal plan is as First Minister in advance of the referendum? It is only the SNP who are pushing for a referendum.
64

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/09/2008 11:39:06
Should we also not be told of the plans of the Labour Party, Tories and Lib Dems under independence?

Could be a hung parliament post-independence..surely they all have made provision for this?

65

Ananurhing,

03/09/2008 11:43:38
#59 Salmond Rushdie

I agree with you that LIT would present a problem in this kind of situation. I don't think my friend had a problem with paying for local services. His reaction was to the scale of the cost.
I asked him what he would expect to pay for the same services at home, and he reckoned around 300 euros p.a.

None of this is my opinion, so don't take the h*mp with me or my Italian friend. My comments are merely observational, and I'm sharing them with you.
66

Salmond Rushdie,

03/09/2008 11:50:02
#69

mmmmmm - I don't honestly believe that local taxation in Italy is a 10th of what it is in Scotland for the same level of public services. Your Italian friend is telling porkies somewhere in this.
67

Alan B,

03/09/2008 11:51:52
#Salmond Rushdie

You asked what the rate of LIT and other taxs would be after independence.

My point was that it would be determined by a number of factors. Are you talking about the short period after independence or over a reasonable period after independence.

If independence happens then the snp could say what they propose but that may not necessarily happen if they do not get re-elected or do not have powers to push through their budget in parliament.

It will also be determined by the state of the economy and finances at the time of independence.

What will the state of the uk economy be in 2yrs time. That is what many people are discussing and predicting different outcomes.

The snp have said 3% lit and there is no reason that should not be the rate after independence as lets face it most of government expenditure comes from central government.

I notice you did not answer my question as to why the UK parties find it so difficult to commit to tax and spending plans in advance. The tories will only say they will cut taxes as it share the procedes of economic growth and also admits it will be limited by the complete mess brown has made of britains fiscal position.

It will make sense for Salmond to put more meat on the bone about what he would do after independence but that really would be in 2010 his proposed yr of referendum. He would be daft to predict the state of the economy then and what brown may or may not do, with the fiscal position between these dates.
68

Alan B,

03/09/2008 11:53:08
The Italian economy is a complete mess.
69

Alan B,

03/09/2008 11:59:31
#Salmond Rushdie

Did know a Scottish director based in London, of a major company, that sold her house in scotland. The reason she gave was due to paying for council tax while not being their much. ie it was a scottish base. Do not know whether that was the real reason or not, as 2nd homes get discounts. Although she did take a post in the US soon after so maybe it would not have been a 2nd property if she sold the London place or just needed the cash.

I am not suggesting that is a good reason for basing any local council tax but just something that your posts made me think about.
70

Alan B,

03/09/2008 12:05:07
#Hawkeye the Noo

The other guy who replaced Berlusconi (Prodi if i remember correctly) did not make a good fist of it either. Berlusconi also inherited a mess first time round.

Italy were doing well a long while ago when it overtook the UK to be 3rd biggest economy in ec (uk is not 2nd). Continuous change of government did not help.

The were complaining about the state of the economy in the north when i was there afew yrs ago (about 4). Unemployment and job prospects were not great. Salaries did not seem to be that high either in the north. Milan also looks like a complete mess in places. Graffity everywhere when you come out the train station.
71

Ananurhing,

03/09/2008 12:06:03
#72 Alan B
Yes I know it is.

#70 Salmond
Not sure how income tax works in Italy, but I can assure you property tax is a fraction of what it is here.
Wages tend to be much lower too.
72

Salmond Rushdie,

03/09/2008 12:12:58
#75

Highland Council reduced the discount for 2nd home owners from 50% to 10%. Personally, I think 2nd home owners should pay 100% of local taxation. The council cannot employ staff on a temporary basis to supply services as and when the rich 2nd home owners decide to use their property. The cost of the public services is the same whether you use and property or not.
73

Gtj,

03/09/2008 12:13:47
Maybe should have waited a few hours before putting up this story.
74

Alan B,

03/09/2008 12:25:09
#Salmond Rushdie

She was around Stirling I think. But as I said it may not have been the real reason that I was told. Or could have been one of many factors.

While I do not necessarily disagree with your point about paying the full rate on a 2nd property, I do not agree with your logic that

"The cost of the public services is the same whether you use and property or not"

Council tax goes towards many things like education. If you are contributing to education budgets through your first property, then should you also be contributing through a 2nd property aswell.

The reason for charging more for a 2nd home is to prevent a shortage in housing. Preventing house prices being pushed up too high, particularly by wealthy urban workers wanting a place in the country. And then pricing out people that live in these rural areas.

On the other hand, with the example I gave you, I was justing thinking of it from the perspective that it is good to keep a link with scotland and some of its high fliers in positions of corporate power.
75

Grahamski,

03/09/2008 12:28:22
68
Hawkeye,
you said:
'Since he is against the existence of Great Britain, and the existence of a team GB, it would be rather odd and even hypocritical of him to show support for a team that represents a political arrangement that he is against'
Presumably you will want to condemn Nicola Sturgeon for her gross hypocrisy when she congratulated Team GB on behalf of the SNP then?
Either wee Eck is a bitter and twisted wee saddo or oor Nic is a terrible hypocrite. Care to say which one it is?
76

Miss H,

03/09/2008 12:32:08
81 What are you havering on about?

I would have no problem congratulating team GB on doing well. I also support an independent team Scotland in the Olympics.

There is no conflict there.
77

Miss H,

03/09/2008 12:40:41
60 yes agreed the real evidence is in the ballot box. There is no support for tax cutting parties. That is why there are no mainsteam parties committed to massive tax cuts - just as there are no mainstream parties committed to massive tax hikes.

The tax structure is not based on the level of taxation. It is based on how tax is levied. Agreed that the current structure even inclusing a LIT is far from ideal but reforming the entire structure is not within the competence of devolved government. So LIT is a sticking plaster solution to the problem of council tax rising so steeply over the past decade - the real reason for that being as poster 39 pointed out:

'In truth, since and before devolution, Scottish and central government has habitually managed its own expenditure by forcing local government to take on Scottish and central government responsibilities. Consequently, many Scottish Councils have had to raise Council tax year after year to cope with these increased financial pressures.'

That is spot on. Effectively previous Lab/Lib executives did raise tax to pay for their policies but they forced local authorities to do it rather than take responsibility centrally. It is that cycle that the SNP is trying to break as much as breaking the cycle of constant above inflation increases.
78

Grahamski,

Falkirk 03/09/2008 12:40:46
82
Miss H,
When Mr Salmond was invited to extend his congratulations to team GB in parliament today he declined to do so. Sad wee bitter man.
79

Grahamski,

Falkirk 03/09/2008 12:44:24
84
Hawkeye,
From the Scotsman:
Sturgeon said today: ".... and I am sure that all of Scotland will join me in congratulating the very successful Team GB..."
80

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/09/2008 12:45:04
Poor David Maddox owning himself again:

'The Tories want ministers to put forward a bill on the local income tax, amid widespread speculation that LIT will be dropped because of almost universal opposition from organisations across Scotland'

Nope, Alex Salmond said today that they are going ahead with the bill as promised David so missed tha one AGIAN.

Anyone get the feeling wee David is a bit like the journalistic equivalent of Tiny Tim.
81

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

03/09/2008 13:16:44
"#49 Miss H,03/09/2008 10:56:43

But you should also acknowledge that the SNP Government has pulled back from that by ending ring fencing and allowing local authorities to decide their own spending priorities within the context of the concordat agreed with COSLA."

Ring-fencing may not exist but councils still have a legal obligation to provide particular services foisted upon them by the Scottish and Westminster government. The more that this happens the more that councils have to spend on statutory services - whether or not there is a financial ring-fence placed is somewhat irrelevent - these services have to be provided whether the council wants to or not.
82

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

03/09/2008 13:19:56
"#50 Miss H,03/09/2008 10:58:59
38 Also you make the point that 'Local Councils will have absolutely no incentive to cut local expenditure'.

They do have an incentive to become more efficient because they now keep the efficiency savings they make rather than having them clawed back by central government."

Under present and past local taxation systems any savings were efectively passed onto council tax-payers. If the rate is set nationally then how on earth can any efficiency savings be passed on to council tax-payers? All that can happen is that the efficiency savings are spent by the council on other expanded services - where's the democracy in that?
83

Miss H,

03/09/2008 13:21:27
86 You are talking rot.

What both you and, with respect, Hawkeye are failing to do is to distinguish between congratulating the athletes in team GB and supporting the position of Scotland as part of team GB.

As I said earlier I would have no problem congratulating team GB and neither did Nicola Sturgeon and neither would Alex Salmond. I don't believe for one minute he would refuse to congratulate athletes on their individual performances because he is not that stupid.

However he, like all Scottish nationalists, supports an independent Scotland team in the Olympics. And of course he is against a GB football team. As is the SFA and the Tartan Army. If you want to label them bitter and twisted wee saddos be my guest but don't expect much support from anyone else!
84

Miss H,

03/09/2008 13:23:51
91 Of course councils have to provide statutory services. If you are arguing that councils should not provide statutory services you are effectively arguing against local government providing services like education, policing, social work, roads, cleansing and so on which must by their very nature be based on statute.
85

Miss H,

03/09/2008 13:25:17
92 What???? Ansolute rubbish. Under past arrangements 'efficiency savings' were simply top sliced from council budgets by central government and retained for a rainy day!
86

Grahamski,

Falkirk 03/09/2008 13:25:24
93
I would hope that our FM would do the decent thing and (like his deputy) extend his congratulations to all of Team GB. When invited to do so in parliament today by Ms Goldie he failed to do so. Sad bitter wee man.
87

Salmond Rushdie,

03/09/2008 13:33:06
#90

It is amazing how much abuse gets thrown around these independence discussions. At the end of the day, it just breeds contempt - on both sides.

I personnaly believe, and I understand the polls still show, that the majority of Scots, if asked the question, would favour greater devolved powers for Scotland over outright independence. To date, Salmond constantly informs us that everything within the current set up in Scotland is broken and needs improved. However, he has hardly explained how he precisely intends to fix these supposed faults. A lot of bluster and sabre-rattling but very little hard proposals. Plus the proposals that have come forward are open to question. Not so much with each overall proposition but rather on whether the SNP have a full understanding of the actual financial outcomes.

If at a referendum, the Scottish public are asked whether they would favour increased devolution over full indpendence, I feel the majority will always vote for that. If however that question is not asked and it is simply and Yes/No vote, things could turn out differently.

Finally, don't assume everyone in Scotland is either pro or anti independence. The majority are neither, are dissatisfied with the current state of affairs but hesitant/unconvinced that the SNP will actually change that much. Therein lies the SNP's problem going forward but also their opportunity to swing the vote.
88

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

03/09/2008 13:40:00
#94 The problem with some statutory services is that local councils are not actually the best organisations to deliver those services. Moreover, having spoken to one local government finance officer, my understanding is that the proportion of council expenditure spent on statutory services is increasing year by year - often beyond the ring-fenced limits ie the ring-fence limit given is nowhere near the level that is actually required to provide the statutory service.

#95 I think you misunderstand my point - councils who do become more efficient need to spend less in real terms in the long run. For example, a council freezing its budget is actually spending less than the previous year due to inflation. Therefore any gains in the long run should filter through to local taxpayers through lower real terms tax levels ie the proportion of their income paid in local taxes should be less in real terms.
89

Publius,

London 03/09/2008 14:17:02
Some interesting comments today about local property taxation being lower in some European countries than in Scotland. The reason is that local councils in Scotland are required to deliver national services to standards and pay levels set by central government. Education, social services and major policing should all be delivered directly by the Scottish government and paid for out of national taxation. This would greatly reduce the impact of local taxes.
There would also be efficiency savings by getting rid of 32 education departments, 32 social services departments and half a dozen police authorities with their prima donna chiefe constables.
90

Grahamski,

Falkirk 03/09/2008 14:19:01
100
So critics of the government are now obnoxious and ruining Scotland are they? Makes a change from being a traitor but the intolerance and pettiness of the pro-government cybernats is quite startling.
They behave like government thugs spouting lies and propaganda and accusing any opponent of treachery or corruption, how very Mugabe-esque of them....
91

,

03/09/2008 14:21:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
92

Publius,

London 03/09/2008 14:23:35
#48 Rabbies Wee Bruthir

You are wrong full stop. Japanese children in every age group are better at Japanese and Maths than Scottish children are at English and Maths. Japanse class sizes are typically 40 to 50 children. And Japanese children clean their own schools. This is seen as good training for life.
93

Grahamski,

Falkirk 03/09/2008 14:27:25
106
Hawkeye,
You are quite entitled to your outlandish views about Team GB. We live in a free country and if you want to behave in a boorish and petulant way then that's up entirely to you.
As FM, Mr Salmond is duty bound to behave in a more dignified and respectful way. He shames us and our parliament with this petty and pathetic behaviour.
94

Grahamski,

Falkirk 03/09/2008 14:30:01
108
No I can't see the irony but don't you get fed up pumping out the same old government lies day after day?
95

Publius,

London 03/09/2008 14:33:24
#105 Bird of Prey, Will watch what i say

I don't know where trains come into this. I drive to Girvan most weekends.

I have no idea who AM2 is (he seems to have quietened down lately) but I suspect he is a front for the Scottish Labour Party, like Miss H is a front for the SNP.

96

Ananurhing,

03/09/2008 14:38:11
Interesting that in contrast to Maddox here, and MacDonnell on TV, Angus MacLeod of the Times was on BBC talking of how popular the idea of LIT is with the electorate.
Another London reporter talked of a win win situation for the SNP. Popular policy being thwarted by the other parties if LIT doesn't go through.
Once again we have to rely on London based media for the nearest we get to impartial reporting.
97

Publius,

London 03/09/2008 14:40:47
#110 The Spook in Leith

Try http://web-japan.org/kidsweb/explore/schools/index.html
98

Alan B,

03/09/2008 14:54:01
#103 Publius

Completely agree with you that national services like education should be run by the scottish government and parliament rather than by local councils.

To me local councils should really be about local issues without national government involvement.
99

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

03/09/2008 15:18:29
#121 Agreed as well.
100

Miss H,

03/09/2008 15:27:43
Publius/Alan B/Federalist

Agreed 32 local authorities is too much but I find the argument that schools should all be run by central government quite amazing.

You actually think it would be more efficient to have civil servants in Edinburgh run schools from Lerwick to Kelso than to have them run locally to suit local needs. A uniform policy approach that applies whether pupils live in Thurso or Drumchapel?

You can't be serious.

101

Miss H,

03/09/2008 15:34:04
107 But we are not Japanese.

A better comparison for Scotland would surely be Finland - which beats Japan in the PISA scores.

A fully comprehensive system, no selection and average class sizes in the early years of 12.

http://www.oecd.org/document/28/0,3343,en_2649_34487_34010524_1_1_1_1,00.html

102

Alan B,

03/09/2008 15:39:37
#Miss H

The way I see it, schools should be managed largely by themselves. Central government should fund these schools directly, based on some formula ie number of pupils taking account other factors.

I see little point in central government giving money to councils, who then have to implement policies of central government, whether they believe in them or not. It is just a lay of beaucracy that i do not think is necessary.

I would have no problem with councillor and msp being on local school boards, but manangement of school should be by the schools management accountable for their performance to the government.

Schools should not really have different educational policies per council.

It would also mean that central government is clearly accountable for education. Rather than the situation where central government are dependent on councils to deliver but still make promises to the electrate that it is going to deliver better education.

Take reduced class sizes. That may well be a good policy. But it is a central government policy not a local government policy. You then have the issue that local government may or may not deliver that.



103

Salmond Rushdie,

03/09/2008 15:41:34
#113

That is one of the funniest things I've read in a while - a belter - 'Tibetan monk fish and flame grilled monkey pot noodles'
104

Miss H,

03/09/2008 15:44:22
98 Yes there has been a tendency to underfund statutory services - not arguing with that. But if you take the case of free personal care as an example (and that is probably the one that has caused councils most grief) the SNP Government has been very open, they have had it reviewed and ministers have been upfront about how much additional money is going to be needed to continue to fund it.

As regards councils freezing spending and filtering it back to taxpayers - yes that could happen once LIT is established. But it will be established at a flat rate in the first instance.

105

Miss H,

03/09/2008 15:57:57
125 Central government does fund schools - well about 80% of schools.

Councils do not have to implement central government policies.

They can vary how they do things and there is a lot of variation. For example look at the story from Monday's paper about West Dunbartonshire council tackling illiteracy:

http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/otherfeatures/display.var.2438240.0.New_ways_to_teach_the_write_stuff.php

What you are arguing for would make such things impossible.

It would also make the initiative undertaken in Glasgow with the Commonwealth Games apprenticeships impossible.

You would not be able to roll out these kinds of initiatives nationally but individual schools would never be able to do them either.

You mentioned class sizes as a case in point. Councils should deliver on that as it is part of the concordat but you do have councils which have said that they will not, like Glasgow. It's up to voters to pass a verdict on that. But if you take away the power of education managers to deliver services which they see as being appropriate to local needs you will diminish the quality of education for all.
106

denrobocop,

Glasgow 03/09/2008 16:31:25
Genuine Question. Can anybody provide a link which shows what percentage of my £1500 Council Tax in Glasgow goes towards Council worker pension scheme.

I was quite surprised with Unisons support for the Council Tax. If the percentages mentioned above are remotely accurate, there is no way that could survive a LIT.
107

Alan B,

03/09/2008 17:00:59
#Miss H

What I was meaning central government would directly fund schools not fund them via local government.

Local initiatives would be via the school rather than council. ie headmasters etc would be responsible for dealing with say literacy issues. Professional educators ie teachers would be responsible for initiatives and teaching within the overall management by the head.

I understand what you are saying about the "concordat" just do not think that is the best approach.

"But if you take away the power of education managers to deliver services which they see as being appropriate to local needs you will diminish the quality of education for all. "

I see it the opposite way. By giving power to professional educators ie teachers and heads and removing politicians then that would improve education.

Who is better to have an educational iniative the school or the council?

How many times do teachers and heads think that if councils and other authorities butted out they could get on with their job. Many teachers do not like alot of the beaucracy brought in by labour.

108

Miss H,

03/09/2008 17:20:51
130 That's a recipe for competition between schools which would inevitably end up in ghettoisation.

Publius mentioned Japanese education earlier on and I countered with Finland.

One of the brilliant things about Finnish education is that the gap between the best performing pupils and the worst performing pupils is around 5%. That os because it is completely comprehensive with no competition and no selection. Schools are managed by municipalities.

We are not that far away from the Finnish system just now. Why change things when there is no proof that it will actually improve education? We should learn a) from what works and b) from what can be most easily delivered. Any reforms based on a wholescale redrawing of the whole education system will cause massive disruption which would not be worth it when there is no evidence it would prove effective.
109

Alan B,

03/09/2008 17:45:54
#Miss H

I never mentioned selection. I would happily have a situation were you go to your local school.

I just think it is better to allow school with professionals to run the education of their school rather than local politicians or/and those in educational authorities.

I am talking about how your fund education how schools are managed.

(Also about the role for local government.)

Many teachers think labour have introduced too much beaucracy. Are they right? Has teaching become too prescriptive?

An example of things i have heard not sure what exactly happening at the moment but part of Mcrone meant teachers had to stay in school till 5pm. Rather than treating them like professionals and allowing them to go when school is finished and then do any preparation work later in the evening as they wish. different poeple like doing things differently.

Another example i heard from a teacher, was over reports for kids. When i was at school many moons ago report cards were short and to the point. Now they are required to write a report more than one A4 page. They end up spending alot of time trying to reword a similar report (using pc wording) to say the same thing over and over again. Most of what can be said quite easily in less than 100 words.

110

Alan B,

03/09/2008 17:56:23
#Miss H

The biggest problems i see are.

When kids move to secondary they get lost in significantly bigger schools. Although it seems the move by labour atleast was to have bigger and bigger schools including even primaries.

The next problem is you have far too many subjects with far too many teachers (unless it has changed). Meaning for the first 2 yrs you have little relationship with your teacher.

I did teacher for a very short time (1yr) many many yrs ago in london. While i know that is a different system, as a teacher you had pupils for 1 hr a week or a fornight with say 25 in a class. You had 4 classes for the first 3 yrs, so 300 pupils plus another 60 odd from other yrs. It was just silly. How could you remember that many names quickly and if a pupil is off you do not see them for a month.

If you know you do not like a subject and you are not going to take ograde (yes i am that old that standard grades were only coming in when i was leaving), then why bother. Standard grades did nothing to effect that. Still do not understand the workability of standard grades where a teacher is meant to teach to 3 different levels with pupils doing 2 exames (foundation, general and credit).

Standard grade with credit level may have sort the big jump between ograde and higher.

(Would also say some of the subjects in England around 1990 were superior to scotlands. ie business studies and it, which were poor in scotland or non existent.)

111

Proximaking,

Aberdeen 03/09/2008 17:57:03
So if LIT comes in what's to stop me setting up a company in England and not pay any tax whatsoever to the Scottish exchequer? Nothing at all from what I can see. It's a no-brainer that this one can't work. Provided I rent a doss house down South and call that myu home or say I live with a friend and pay her cheap English council tax for her Salmond can't touch a penny of my money and I save 3p in the pound, say £4k per year. Well worth doing. Of course the mugs who work as staff for private companies or local authorities in Scotland, and there are a lot of them, won't be able to avoid the tax and so taxes will have to rise again to cover the losses from people like me, and there are a lot of us. And of course teachers should have to stay in school up to 5pm, and they should have to look after kids until then as well, they can do their "homework" in class then where we pay teachers not to do it at the moment. I'm a professional and I stay in the office until 5pm like 99% of the planet excluding teachers for some archaic reason.
112

Miss H,

03/09/2008 17:59:37
132 Yes Labour introduced too much bureacracy but that is an argument against Labour not against the structure of Scottish education.

You are saying that you are against selection but if all schools opted out of local authority management and became grant maintained that is what would happen as we have seen down south. Although many schools have now opted back into local authority control.

It would not be possible to say that every child had to go to their local school. You will always have placement requests because of various reasons and that has to be managed by someone. It can't be managed by each individual school.

There may be many problems with McCrone but the teachers signed up to it and it is a national not a local agreement so taking schools out of local authority control would make no difference.
113

Alan B,

03/09/2008 18:01:06
#Proximaking

Why would you have to set the business up in england and not scotland?

Your theory would also not work as you would have to prove that the place your are living is not your primary address. And then you would still pay council tax on it as a second home.
114

Miss H,

03/09/2008 18:02:00
134 There is no such thing as a Scottish Exchequer. If you think the costs of setting up a business in England would be worth the while in order to avoid paying LIT that's your choice but you would have to move there as well.
115

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/09/2008 23:35:53
#42 Grahamster

Off topic.

Should you not be on the sports thread????
116

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/09/2008 23:37:57
#43 Alan said:

"There tends to be a link between property value and wealth."

Tends to be?

That's a bit weak Alan!

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
RSS Feed of this article's comments
Delivery formats: RSS, Atom, Javascript & Email
 
  

 
 

More Politics

More Politics >>

More Scottish National Party

More Scottish National Party >>

Features

Paperboy Paperboy Customised news
Scottish Business Briefing Scottish Business Briefing ...Sign up today
Scotsman Hotels Scotsman Hotels

Featured Advertising



Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.