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Salmond rebuts university job-cut accusations

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Published Date: 22 February 2008
By HAMISH MACDONELL
ALEX Salmond defended his higher education budget settlement yesterday, despite reports that one university has already started cutting staff because of a the squeeze from the Scottish Government.
The First Minister told MSPs universities were getting a bigger share of government cash than in the past but all were also being expected to look for efficiencies.

Mr Salmond was responding to a report in The Scotsman yesterday on staff cuts at D
undee University, with Sir Alan Langlands, the principal, warning that the Scottish Government's "poor" financial settlement was one factor in forcing him to find £3 million of savings.

Nicol Stephen, the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, seized on Sir Alan's remarks during First Minister's Questions to ask Mr Salmond who was responsible for the job cuts, the lecturers and staff or the First Minister.

Mr Stephen said: "Today Dundee University has confirmed significant job losses – more than 100 staff will be affected."

He demanded: "Is this an efficiency saving or a cut?

"And will the lecturers and students who suffer as a result be able to tell the difference?"

Mr Salmond told him the university had been looking to make efficiencies for some time, and claimed that process had started in February last year – when Mr Stephen was deputy first minister.

Mr Salmond added: "The university expect that at the end of this process of efficiency savings, as many people will be employed in the university as lecturers as there are at the present moment. That does not seem to me the story of an institution in decline.

"It seems an institution which is facing up to a difficult budgetary situation in a responsible manner looking to achieve excellence in higher education and university services in Scotland."

Mr Stephen insisted: "The truth is that Scottish universities are facing a record cash crisis. Never since the creation of this parliament has there been a real-terms cash cut in university funding until now."

Mr Salmond told Mr Stephen: "In the spending review period, expenditure on universities and higher education will increase in real terms.

"That will represent 3.18 per cent of total Scottish Government expenditure.

"In the spending review of 2002 and 2004 the figures stood at 3.13 per cent and 3.15 per cent. That would indicate to me university funding is rising as a percentage of the total Scottish budget."





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 February 2008 9:05 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

J J MAROONER,

22/02/2008 00:02:11
Paper and cracks come to mind.
2

Nikostratos,

22/02/2008 00:08:27
"The First Minister told MSPs universities were getting a bigger share of government cash than in the past but all were also being expected to look for efficiencies"

Thats what the bosses call doing more with less....See Alex is on the other side of the fence now with the Bosses.............Riding around on his limo forgeting about the ordinary people...........
3

Rasco,

22/02/2008 00:17:12
Alan langlands labour donar Nicol Wendys lapdog 5 Million population how many University's do we need.
4

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 22/02/2008 00:20:53
Langlands, that name rings a bell.....oh yes, he's the twunt who blatantly tried to use the University of Dundee to influence the election in the marginal Dundee West constituency. Charming man.
5

Nikostratos,

22/02/2008 00:28:20
#4 oscar

Back of the class for you my lad.........And none of that dyslexia nonsense either..............
6

Senga Jean,

22/02/2008 00:37:51
#4 the word is twonk and he is a disgrace. Thankfully the SNP Government have more dignity in this matter and stay faithful to Dundee and its institutions. There is an army of Unionists out there defending their "UK" jobs. Why do they not feel secure in dear old Scotland? They will be loved if they stay after Independence.
7

Jimmy the Pie,

22/02/2008 00:44:51
I see Wendy made a fool of herself again at yesterday's FMQ's. She should really do her homework.
Alex made short work of her again.
Just gets better every time!!
8

subrosa,

22/02/2008 01:28:43
St Andrews have just made Dundee look like small minded fools. (See other article re St Andrews). Time Dundee got on with doing constructive work to enhance their reputation globally instead of the labour/libdem placemen within it constantly bleating.

The St Andrews article makes Nicol Stephen look a fool - but then he is.
9

BrianHill,

Edinburgh 22/02/2008 01:34:48
Nicol Stephen and others who rant on about the poor funding from the Scottish Government should remember that it was their votes which took £500+million pounds out of the budget for the Trams.

I'm sure they and the good Mr Langlands can count. If Mr Langlands is playing politics here on behalf of the Labour Party we should be asking if he is fit to hold such an important position.

Among other things one of his major tasks is to maintain a steady ship at his university to allow the students a calm environment in which to study.

Also one would have hoped that a man of his academic stature would provide us with an alternative financial strategy in order for his university to get the funds it needs, i.e. where would the money come from?

Merely griping at the SNP smacks of a hidden agenda which he pursues at the expense of his students and of course the reputation of the university.
10

subrosa,

22/02/2008 01:38:07
# 9

Aye it's always Dundee Uni that complains isn't it? Nicol must have pals there. We never hear such negativity from Edinburgh, Stirling, Glasgow, Strathclyde etc do we?
11

Edward,

22/02/2008 01:46:16
Dundee University has become a joke under Labour donor and supporter Sir Alan Langlands
He of ex NHS chairman fame, then Patientline fame
What is it about Labour and there supporters that are given top jobs, only to cock them up!
Then Gordon Borwon had Langlands sign the 150 signature letter of support for the Union just before the May Elections.
Funny thing is that Sir Alan Langlands was a bit quite last year when they were making cuts at Dundee, but that was under the budget of the previous Labour/Libdem government. No you would think that would be a bit of a lesson on how to cut your cloth etc, but no, he ignores that and as the cash hasnt increased, he is threathening more cuts for the 2008/2009 fiscal year. Its a bit of a Dejavu thing with him as he was the same when in charges of the NHS and then Patientline. Why cant Dundee Uni attract inward investment from outside Scotland, like its near neighbour St Andrews? Thats something that Sir Alan Langlands just cant figure as his nose is never out the trough long enough
12

Murray in Canada,

Salt Spring Island 22/02/2008 02:25:05
If Langland and his sort took pay cuts [no such luck!] the problem would be lighter. But of course, silly me, they're the high heid yins, who remain at their lucrative posts [doing very little it seems - Langland appears to have mismanaged Dundee dreadfully] while the lowly lose their jobs.
13

James,

Dundee 22/02/2008 02:40:09
#2 Nimbostratus
'Riding around on his limo forgeting about the ordinary people...........'


Who - Sir Alan Langlands or Wenday Alexander?
14

Royster,

22/02/2008 06:27:40
#6. 'The army of unionists defending their 'UK' jobs'? Are you suffering from paranoia or have you been brainwashed? You do not appear to have much of a grip on reality.
15

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 22/02/2008 07:44:26
The Langland's - McConnell farrago from an inside perspective.

http://tinyurl.com/2rjzg3
16

brownlie,

Glasgow 22/02/2008 07:45:27
This is the usual fatuous and badly researched question from Nicol Stephens. It appears he has no interest in anything apart from being anti-SNP. He also appears to have a selective sense of smell when it comes to sleaze. His lack of comment on the NEWLab sleaze would suggest that he thinks that such conduct is acceptable by unionists. I wonder why?
17

1745,

Edinburgh 22/02/2008 08:16:55
Dundee uni has ever been a hot bed of Labour,it's tutors are dyed Red.
18

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 22/02/2008 08:20:13
If Scotland (and indeed the UK) is to have any longer term future in an ever more technological age, especially when the far east has taken most manufacturing jobs we had, then it is essential, (not just desirable), to increase the role and funding to our HE and FE sectors.

Beyond their rallying cry for so called "independence" the SNP simply lack any real vision in this respect and its clearly beginning to show in these job cuts alongside the recent announcement to "merge" the Macaulay Inst in Aberdeen with Scottish Crop Research Institute in Dundee. Its a travesty that will have areal long term down side thats for sure. At least Nicol Stephen as the Minister Business and Lifelong learning had the right approach but all his good work will be undone if the SNP get their way. So folks "arise now" and voice your disapproval?
19

Gdgy,

dundee 22/02/2008 08:25:36
The SNPites, now they are in government, decide we don't need higher education .......
Oh well I suppose you don't need to be educated to be thrawn to the SNP cause......
20

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 22/02/2008 08:25:59
Yet another seal clubbing at FMQs yesterday. Wendy's first question on SNP led Aberdeen Council was a gift to Alex. After that incorrect opening line the rest of her question was a waste of time. Does she suffer from ignorance or arrogance and who writes her questions ?
Nicol Stephen is just a joke now, he didn't seem to have considered that Alex would be ready to respond that Dundee Uni started this review under the previous administration when Nicol was deputy first minister.
21

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 22/02/2008 08:43:39
#7
Spot on Jim! Every FMQ's I have watched Salmond wipes the floor with Alexander and Stephen. Alexander has about as much wit as my springer spaniel, and he's been dead for over 6 years. She must have been practising that Mr Takeaway line the entire previous night. Anabelle Goldie, now there's grace and wit.
22

conservative,

Fife 22/02/2008 08:56:10
But getting down to brass tacks the universities are hugely overstaffed and could easily afford to lose some. I work at a well-known Scottish university. Lecturers frequently give only an hour or 2 - sometimes not that - lectures a dayplus a further hour or 2 per week marking scripts and many do no research work in their remaining time. The number of administrative staff is eye-watering and easily on a par with the NHS. Why do you think that university fees have rocketed? A bit of belt tightening has long been called for.
23

thinking,

Scotland 22/02/2008 09:04:12
Cut the useless courses and encourage the non-academic to study wherever there are courses that suit their abilities and interests. They will then succeed and there will be less of the dropouts and less waste of money.
There is nothing demeaning about being non-academic. It's no good trying to encourage all youngsters to be the same academically because they are not. Many highly successful (and happy and fulfilled) people did not go to university
24

J J MAROONER,

22/02/2008 09:04:34
24#

As was pointed out yesterday stop all the joke degrees - concentrate on the academically gifted.
25

Gothic Rose,

22/02/2008 09:12:14
Told you, "Things they are a changing."
26

Blarney,

Blackford 22/02/2008 09:20:26
Dundee Uni, the debt has been run up for years, the problem is they don't have their labour buddies in government anymore to bail them out. Time to make your business run efficiently or get someone who can.
Langland is an embarrassment to Dundee, he is the butt of constant jokes throughout the local population.
27

radical theologian,

California 22/02/2008 09:22:51
When will these universities stop looking to the government (= taxpayers) to fund their activities, and get into the real world where people have to pay for things?
28

Senga Jean,

22/02/2008 09:46:20
#14 Royster I appear to have touched a nerve. Read what was said twice and it might sink in. From Gordon Brown upwards!
29

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 22/02/2008 09:57:38
Well... the party political robots certainly are out in force today. I don't know anything about Mr Langlands, apart from rumours, above, that he is a labour supporter, which is entirely up to him. Perhaps someone out there will enlighten me as to the Great Crimes he has committed?

30

Miss H,

22/02/2008 09:59:12
20 Liberal for Life.

Alex Salmond made a very specific statement. He said that the SNP Government has allocated 3.18 per cent of total Scottish Government expenditure to universities and higher education. This compares with previous Labour/Lib Dem administrations which allocated 3.13 per cent and 3.15 per cent.

So the SNP Government is spending more than previous governments did. That's a statement of fact. They may not be spending much more but they have less of an increase in their budget to spread around than previous administrations did.

So two questions arise. Firsly, why did the Lib Dems not insist on an increase in spending on higher education when they were in a position to do so? Secondly, if they want to increase the share of spending that goes to universities now why did they not put in an amendment to the budget to that effect, demonstrating where spending should be cut elsewhere to fund it? The clue is in the question I think ....
31

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 22/02/2008 09:59:40
#25 thinking

That is true, but you will find that most 'highly successful people' did go to a university.
32

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 10:09:21
#32 Miss H, do you not find it somewhat embarrassing that, two days in a row, the arguments thrown at Labour in Westminster by the SNP have rebounded right back in the SNP's face?

Yesterday you had people on the Labour side calling the HE settlement a "cut" despite it being an increase, just as SNP people called the block grant a "cut" when in fact it was an increase.

Today we have Salmond saying that over the spending review period the growth will be larger than before, despite the fact that in this first year of the period the funding is a real-terms cut. But only a few weeks ago the self same argument from the chancellor that over the three years of the block grant settlement the increase was as predicted, even though in the first year it was slightly lower, was met with derision from the SNP.

In both cases, the SNP have actually been worse than Westminster. Even the first year of the block grant increase was a real-terms increase above inflation, whereas this years' HE increase is a real-terms cut.

I am not surprised, because this is how politics is done, but SNP supporters no longer have any justification for pointing to their man as a paragon of straight talking against the spin of others - he is using exactly the same spin to achieve exactly the same goals.

Cue a hundred voices raised in defence of Salmond because he is working "in the interests of real Scots"...
33

G,

dundee 22/02/2008 10:18:07
I have the answer - sack #24! He has the time to konw about everyone elses job - obvioulsy he isn't doing his own!!!

ANd #31 COME ON! Langlands has commited heresy! He has spoken against the true SNPite word.
He is also a traitor because he has spoken against the true SNPite word
He is also an abomination as he has expressed an opinion that countermands the expressed will and thoughts of Chairman Alex.....
34

Marvin the Martian,

22/02/2008 10:19:58
32 Miss H

3.18% is 0.03% higher than the previous administration.

In relative terms the SNP budget is 100.95% of the previous administrations budget.

If the Universities costs, through inflation and purchase of new technologies, are >= 101% of the previous year then they have received a cut.

Salmond and you are not being honest with anyone. To call the SNP's budget an increase is wrong.

Alex Salmond does not know the meaning of the word efficiency. Efficiency relates to goals, not costs, turning out a generation of students with adequate educations within budget is less effiecient than turning out internationally excellent graduates over budget.

There is no question that the SNP under Alex Salmond have not given higher education the priority it deserves.

Scotland cannot compete internationally with semi-skilled or unskilled work. If we want to maintain our lifestyles in an independent Scotland we will need to better England in high-skilled workers. The Universities told Alex Salmond what he needed to do to maintain competitiveness with England and he failed to deliver.

The man is more interested in trying to look good than be good. He has let Scotland down, again.
35

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 22/02/2008 10:20:28
#34

Indeed. Mr Salmond is one of the great spin-meisters, right up there with TB. He is perfectly capable of running spin-rings around his oposition (especially when they are of the calibre of Wendy Alexander - she is a joke, isn't she?). Personally, I find him untrustworthy.
36

The Answer,

Glasgow 22/02/2008 10:38:32
Marvin the Martian,22/02/2008 10:19:58
"Scotland cannot compete internationally with semi-skilled or unskilled work. If we want to maintain our lifestyles in an independent Scotland we will need to better England in high-skilled workers"

0.52% of Scotlands population qualified and became new undergraduates in 2007

0.59% of Englands population qualified and became new undergraduates in 2007

A difference of 14% in Englands favour, that gap can never be closed.
37

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 10:41:45
#38 I think we need a better definition of high-skilled workers than simply university graduates.
38

Marvin the Martian,

22/02/2008 10:50:58
39 Duncan

Are you being serious?

How many Engineers, Physicists, Chemists, Biologists, Architects, Surgeons do you know of that do not have a university degree?

These are highly skilled workers. Certainly they all need technicians which do not necessarily have degrees.

The SNP/Labour are going to churn out a generation of actuaries, economists, accountants, lawyers, sociologists, media and PR people. And Scotland/UK will fade away.

These politicians do not understand or reflect on reality. They deal in spreadsheets, speeches, arbitary numbers and false targets.

Higher education should have a purpose and a goal and have funding to meet those goals. Right now we are creating armies of plebs with BS qualifications who can not produce anything worth trading on the international markets.

Alex Salmond is typical of this. He thinks Scotland can trade "wisdom" and "advice" in politics, deal in financial services. He is a joke and I rest my case. We should be trading technologies and precision manufacturing.
39

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 10:58:55
#40 Yes I am entirely serious. I work in IT and fully half of the brightest, most effective, innovative and economically productive technical people in the field have no university degree.

It's a very blunt way of measuring stuff. As you rightly imply, there is also a whole range of people who do have university degrees who are in fact not very effective, innovative or economically productive.

That's why I think we need to be more careful as to how we define high-skilled workers, rather than just measuring the number who have made it through a university course.
40

,

22/02/2008 11:02:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
41

Marvin the Martian,

22/02/2008 11:09:09
42 Duncan

Ahhh okay, you're a pleb. You don't need a degree to succeed in plebbery such as "IT".

I was talking about highly-skilled workers.
42

Alan Reid,

NZ 22/02/2008 11:12:09
Meanwhile back at the ranch:
http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/35199
43

Fairfax,

22/02/2008 11:19:12
danielrober (41): "The life style of a professor is comparable to that of a city executive. Senior lectures have many advantages both finanical and holidays."

Almost all senior lecturers are paid between £40K and £50K (or low 50s) per year. The career peak for most professors is in the mid £50K region, although a small minority earns much more. All academics have freedom, in the sense that we're not 9-5 workers, but the long holidays simply don't exist: the students' holidays outside term-time is filled with scholarship, research, marking exams, refereeing papers, attending conferences, and writing books.

44

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 11:21:10
#44 Stop being silly. You evidently know precious little about IT. Some of the most highly skilled people in Scotland work in the field, and many of them have degrees in your precious physics, maths, chemistry and engineering. And there are also people like myself, with an honours degree in theoretical computer science from one of the world's leading Computer Science schools.

But I'm a pleb, apparently.
45

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 11:23:20
#46 You don;t have to have the whole summer off to be judged to have long holidays. Senior lecturers at most universities get at least 35 days a year. I know some who get 30 days plus public holidays, which means a total of around 40 days a year. That's a very decent package.
46

,

22/02/2008 11:41:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
47

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 22/02/2008 11:41:52
#33 said "That is true, but you will find that most 'highly successful people' did go to a university."
Bill Gates - Did first year then Quit
Richard Branson - Never Went.
I can go on and on. Universities now turn out mobs of undergraduates who end up in low paying jobs that you used to not need a degree to get. Meanwhile Plumbers and Electricians are in short supply and get payed a fortune. Or if you really want the big money become become a Stonemason, you will make more per hour than most Legal or Accounting Professionals.
48

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 11:43:34
#49 Haha. Yes, it does. :-)
49

subrosa,

22/02/2008 11:46:00
Why are we arguing about Dundee University? Langlands is a labour man through and through and he will cause trouble at the drop of a hat. His cuts started with the labour/libdem administration.

The people of Dundee have no respect for the man or his sidekicks and he is just an embarrassment. Langlands is aware of his reputation and the damage he is doing to Dundee as a whole but it doesn't trouble him.

If funding is so bad, why aren't we hearing from some of the other universities such as Edinburgh, Glasgow, Strathclyde etc? Answer is obvious really.

Maybe the article in the Herald about St Andrews will give him a bit of food for thought but doubt it. Well done to St Andrews which is showing what a Scottish Univeristy can do!
50

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 11:50:52
#52 You may have a point but you ruin it with a central falsehood. Langlands is not a Labour man at all. He is a unionist, certainly, but he has had close affiliations with Tory, Labour and Lib Dem initiatives over his career. You SNP folk really need to a) learn the difference between "unionist" and "Labour", and b) accept that most people consider politics to be about more than the question of independence.
51

kimba,

22/02/2008 11:53:25
Seems scotland is getting what it voted for,cuts and more cuts!
52

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 22/02/2008 11:55:54
#39 The Answer. Undergraduates work in call centres, sell real estate and work in minor administrative positions. The people who add the kind of value you talk about have higher degrees or more importantly entrepenuerial skills.
53

Tris,

22/02/2008 11:57:21


We have to be careful that we don't assume a university degree is the be all and end all. Useful though they may be to some.

Plumbers, electricians, joiners, brick layers... chefs, musicians,etc....can have very sucessful, fulfilling and lucrative careers without the benefits of a degree.

One of our problems is that, unlike many other countries we still take a rather snobbish vioew of "blue collar" education.

My brother left school at 16 having pretty much failed to get any qualifications at all. He worked in factories and garages. He now is a director of a large national company. I got a degree, and earn about sixth of what he does.

Brown wants 50% of people to get a degree. So there are targets everywhere to get people to go to uni, stay at uni, get a degree. In order to accommodate that there are some pretty weird degrees.... and then of course Tesco's and BT's Call Centres are chock with graduates, because there really aren't too many jobs for graduates. In the mean time we can't get a plumber or a slater for any amount of money.

Taking up another point raised above, I fail to understand why, week after week, Wenday and Nicol try to embarrass the first minister with idiotic, badly researched questions. They always end up looking stupid themselves.

I'm the most anti-Tory person I know, but I take my hat off to Anabel Goldie: she asks sensible questions, does it with a bit of wit, and for all her political views, comes over as a person who has grasped the idea of the type of government that proportional representation produces.

Finally, Dundee University is top heavy with managers, pen pushers, power-point presentation givers and bean counters. It is, for all that, badly managed. As others have said in their posts, you don't hear other universities in Scotland whining. Langlands is a disgrace. Why can't Dundee get itself a good management?
54

Marvin the Martian,

22/02/2008 12:01:04
Did someone just use Richard Branson as an example of a succesful person? Good grief.

The man is a thief which is the same as an entrepreneaur.

What Scotland needs to get through its thick skull is that money, economical contribution (Branson avoids this by staying abroad) aee not measures of success.

Every bone-head SNP member makes the same tired argument out of context.

Scotland is great, we invented the TV, the telephone, the pneumatic tyre and so on.

That is success. Making a lasting contribution. Failed physicists or failed engineers or failed chemists making an "IT" program for Northern Rock to rip people off is not success.

As I said before, we need to get back in touch with reality. Stop putting a lousy dollar sign on everything, ignore the love of a lousy buck and get back to proper success, as defined by reality.

This involves giving Science subject all the money we can spare. Inventing useful stuff, manufacturing it and selling it abroad. That is success.

Buying low-selling high is explotation and involves the win-lose relationship. The east is now better than us because it uses the win-win relationship in business and society. Small profit, good value, relevance of output.

55

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 22/02/2008 12:02:52
Tinman,
Sounds like you don't want to know this guys sins but here are some of them.
http://tinyurl.com/2rjzg3

This is typical Neu Leiber-style corruption. I look forward to your response..
56

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 12:03:03
#55 Just repeating something doesn't make it true.

I have worked with a lot of highly skilled, value-adding folk in my career, and I reiterate that fully half of them do not have a university degree. One of the things which is refreshing about working in small, entrepreneurial environments is that people are promoted on merit, rather than recruited on qualification.

A lot of bright, productive people have degrees, of that there is no doubt. But having a degree does not make you bright and productive, and not having one does not stop you from being bright and productive.
57

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 22/02/2008 12:05:36
#36 Marvin,
Comptete with England, so set the bar very low. Better to try and compete with Luxembourg or Denmark or even Ireland who are way ahead of England in GDP per capita.
58

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 22/02/2008 12:05:53
#36 Marvin,
Compete with England, so set the bar very low. Better to try and compete with Luxembourg or Denmark or even Ireland who are way ahead of England in GDP per capita.
59

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 22/02/2008 12:06:23
#50 Bule Kampung

I can certainly vouch for the earning power of an electrician, having just re-wired (eek). However, they didn't have degrees, I do, and I make considerably more than them.
60

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 12:07:21
#58 He was appointed Chief Exec of the NHS by the Tories in 1994, and relieved of his post by Labour in 2000. Please stop referring to him as a Labour stooge when he is clearly just a successful man.
61

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 22/02/2008 12:08:45
Kampong Highlander

What's happening down on Block 'M' by the way?
62

Marvin the Martian,

22/02/2008 12:10:45
60

Compete on GDP? Good grief, you are delusional, go and see a shrink, try and get back in touch with reality.

Cambridge developed the jet engine and internet last century, Oxford did some useful stuff too, and Imperial and King's college and even Bath.

Let's compete and make a success of Scotland in real terms. Not by fudging the figures in a false economy.

What did Ireland do last century? Get a bunch of fairweather friends to temporarily stop over to make a quick buck providing services nobody really needs to american consumers?
63

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 12:13:54
#65 I am fascinated by your continuing invective.

Pray tell, in what way did Cambridge "develop the internet"?
64

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 22/02/2008 12:19:39
#57 Marvin you are so out of touch with reality of the real world I can only assume you are a University Lecturer. "Buying low-selling high is explotation and involves the win-lose relationship. The east is now better than us because it uses the win-win relationship in business and society. Small profit, good value, relevance of output." I can assure as someone who has lived in Asia for the last 10 years that the capitalism practiced out here is much more cut throat than anything seen in the west. China floods Europe with shoes on very thin margins knowing that the European shoe industry is ready to topple. They even turn their sites on Africa flooding it with cheap shoddy crap to destroy any chance of Africa using its advantage in cheap labour to compete. All those wonderfull things Scotland invented TV's Telephone's Tires, they were never able to commercially exploit because Scottish Universities were turning out a load of useless moron's like yourself.
65

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 22/02/2008 12:23:01
Tin Man. Exactly the same as when you were last their. Somethings, thankfully, never change.
66

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 22/02/2008 12:25:38
#66 They did it when Al Gore was their as a Rhodes Scholar.
67

Marvin the Martian,

22/02/2008 12:25:43
Whoops! Cambridge, quite right, it was Oxford - I shouldn't rely on memory alone when composing.

I shall consider myself duly pedanted by someone trying to convince me pointless programs for pointless financial services is "success" of a civilisation.
68

Teamdroid,

22/02/2008 12:26:21
#63 Oh come on - tell us what happened to Mr Langlands, he of the million honorary degrees and fellowships, after he was "relieved" of his post as NHS England Chief Exec in 2000. Odd, that word - everywhere I've looked it says he resigned or retired. You make it sound like NuLab were unhappy with him.

Four months after he was "relieved" of this post, to be exact.
69

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 22/02/2008 12:26:37
KampungHighlander

:-) Send my regards to Suzie.
70

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 22/02/2008 12:28:06
#63 Duncan,
"#58 He was appointed Chief Exec of the NHS by the Tories in 1994, and relieved of his post by Labour in 2000. Please stop referring to him as a Labour stooge when he is clearly just a successful man."

1) He actually retired from his post in August 2000 before taking up his directorship in 'patientline' in 2001. Funny that eh?
2) I never referred to him as a Labour stooge. He is however as thick as theives with them.
3) Why do you feel the need to mislead and defend the indefensible?
71

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 12:29:40
#70 Haha, nice one.

#71 No, you're still not making much sense. What work done at Oxford do you consider to be the development of the internet?

And incidentally, I have made no argument about financial services. Perhaps you should check who you are responding to more carefully.
72

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 12:31:34
#74 I'm not defending him. I have never met him. But you and others persist in describing him as something that he is not, and it gets on my wick. Be honest, he has been a successful man under a range of governments, and he is entitled to express his educated opinion even if it conflicts with the sainted Alex.
73

Fairfax,

22/02/2008 12:43:09
danielrober (68): "If serious levels of investment are not made available this sector will follow the mines and shipyards."

Here in England we have fees. The university sector is generally doing extremely well here: Scots will therefore have somewhere to go if yours are emasculated.

"Let me ask you a question, who makes the most money at your university?

A, The book shops, selling course material.
B, The Student Union bar, selling beer."

I teach at Cambridge, where the college bars certainly do a good trade, but the bookshops don't seem to do badly either. The students, who are excellent, usually work hard. However, I have often seen excellent students, in mathematics at least, at Aberdeen, Dundee and Edinburgh.

It seems ironic that an English nationalist mathematician should be defending Scottish students!
74

,

22/02/2008 12:47:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
75

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 22/02/2008 12:48:51
#76,
A successful man? In the same way as Roman Abramovich sort of thing.

Imagine your family were in hospital and wanted to watch tv to escape the boredom. You were forced to use a personal 'patientline' tv because 'patientline' managed to get all communal tvs taken out of wards. The same with telephone calls were private mobiles were banned and ward phones removed forcing patients to use 'patientline' phones at exorbitant rates. He obviously used his previous position and Labour contacts to establish the monopoly that 'patientline' craved.

He resigned in 2004 and 'patientline' was disgraced.

After that he got a nice cushty number at the University where he controls appointments tightly - appointment which are Neu Leiber. He makes political interventions which have been pro-Labour and anti-SNP.

Neu Leiber won power in 1997 and Alan Langland became Sir Alan Langlands in 1998. Can you remember that Cash for honours fiasco?

The man is Neu Leiber and has their stench of corruption about him and to no small degree.

If you want to ignore reality that's up to you Duncan. If I were you though, I learn when to shut up.
76

MtnKat,

22/02/2008 12:51:51
Why is it that Langlands is the only one hissing and spitting about funding? Does that mean his is the only bastion of higher learning incapable of producing an operating budget and adhereing to it?
I would recommend a self audit. I have no doubt wasteful procedures have been in place for decades that continue due to the mindset "that's the way we have always..........".
Restructuring does not necessarily mean loss of jobs. Increased efficiency is always possible.
77

The west awake,

Argyll 22/02/2008 12:54:42
Liberal for Life

"Beyond their rallying cry for so called "independence" the SNP simply lack any real vision in this respect and its clearly beginning to show in these job cuts"

- Its showing so much that only one Labour supporting person at Dundee has criticised it, a person whose own credentials to complain seem baised at best and hypocrtical and worst. COSLA are lavishly praising the SNP for the Concordat, one Labour councillor even on record as saying "Thank God for the SNP". perhaps you would be so kind as to describe the "real vision" the Lab Dems have instead? - Clue - it's on page 5 of the Labour Manifesto.

"alongside the recent announcement to "merge" the Macaulay Inst in Aberdeen with Scottish Crop Research Institute in Dundee. Its a travesty that will have areal long term down side thats for sure."

- Scotland will win the World Cup thats for sure. I think you see where I'm going with such a remark.

"At least Nicol Stephen as the Minister Business and Lifelong learning had the right approach but all his good work will be undone if the SNP get their way."

- I do hope so.

"So folks "arise now" and voice your disapproval?"

- Sounds very like "Go back to your constituencies and prepare for Government". If my calculations are right, the Liberal faithful Steel addressed these memorable words to then should be preparing for retirement now.

The Liberals - If you really want to waste your vote.
78

Linda,

Edinburgh 22/02/2008 12:55:05
Langlands is a Labour stooge and see blatant electioneering in Dundee West
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2007/05/01/newsstory9642098t0.asp
79

Fairfax,

22/02/2008 12:55:10
Duncan in Edinburgh (66): "Pray tell, in what way did Cambridge "develop the internet"?"

I've never heard of this one, although lots of useful progress has evolved from the Cambridge computer science department. To give one example, Acorn, the creators of the BBC computer, was a Cambridge computer science start-up. Its descendant, ARM Ltd, is still based in Cambridge, and is extremely successful, designing the chips for almost all mobile phones and many other devices, including the iPod. Therefore, although Scotland lays claim to the phone via Alexander Graham Bell, the phone in most Scots pockets is the creation of an English company! More seriously, it's not an isolated example of university research generating successful start-ups; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_phenomenon
80

MtnKat,

22/02/2008 12:57:52
I cannot recall ever agreeing with Duncan, but I would be sunk without our IT staff. they are worth their weight in gold.
Yes, they probably do f**k off most of the day, probably because their area of expertise is childs play them. It's not childs play to most of us.
81

MtnKat,

22/02/2008 13:01:19
Fairfax
I think you will find that the "phone in most Scots pockets is the creation of" a Japanese company.
82

The Rebel MC,

22/02/2008 13:09:53
This is a direct consequence of the choice made by Scotland in relation to income contingent top up fees

South of the border English Universities are enjoying an additional 1.35 billion pounds from these fees as well additional funding from the taxpayer via the Higher Education Funding Council for England

In Scotland the universities asked for 135 million pounds and were given 30 million - it doesn't matter what % of the budget it comes to (and we are only talking about a 0.03% change here - which is going to be lost in rounding up or accounting variances) what matters is how much Scottish Universities say they need to continue to compete with England and the rest of the world

Look at the number of applications to Scottish Universities for 2008 1.5% increase year on year compared to a rise of some 7% for English Universities - why is that do you think?

Salmond is starving Scottish Universities of resources because there main source of income is the Scottish Executive's budget.
83

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 13:10:43
#78 Proof once more that those who cannot win an argument instead resort to ad hominem attack. How dull and predictable.
84

Boggle fey the Bog,

22/02/2008 13:12:46
#43 Ayrshire Rot Marcas Registrada,

As I Native born Scot who has travelled extensively throughout the world, I can honestly say that I have never heard of you!!!
It seems that you are a self appointed font of all thought for the Scottish people, as I honestly can't remember appointing my proxy to yourself, nor when I engaged in conversation with other fellows, they also appear not to have bestowed upon you this great, serious and estimable appointment.
It would appear that the only personage to appoint you as the 'the voice of Ayrshire, Scotland and the EU' is your own deranged, self deluding and inconsequential self.

Although I can empathise, or even sympathise with your assertion that the 'Unis are going down the plug hole' the next part of your statement is in words of the vernacular 'Pish'.

The demise of the Scottish education system has it's roots in Labour's chaotic thrust towards comprehensive schooling in the 60's and 70's.

I can recall in the mid 90's taking a class of 17 year olds in a well known College of Further Education, in the west of the country, my task was to impart knowledge of Statistical analysis and it's use with the Quality , Environmental, Health and Safety areas of the workplace, when I mentioned probability they were suitably dumbfounded, but to my surprise when I required them to perform some basic arithmetical tasks, that include division of 'big' numbers by 'big' numbers then calculating percentages only 2 students of a class of 26, could carry out the task within a 6 sigma certainty of achieving the correct answer, of the remainder, i.e. the other 24 students 18 were totally nonplussed, and 3 had a very good go at it and the remaining 3 at least attempted to find a solution to the problem I set them.

I have no reason to presume that the situation has changed any in regard to the ability of students to read, comprehend and then solve a basic arithmetic problem at this moment in time.

Further, under the old Scotv
85

Boggle fey the Bog,

22/02/2008 13:13:50
Continued from post #89

Further, under the old Scotvec/Scotec and University awards system, students actually had to prove that they were proficient in the subject that they were studying, whereas today the 'Pass' criteria is to demonstrate that they have a 'Knowledge of, or an 'Understanding of' the subject they are studying. This criteria is not proof of proficiency.
This does not produce 'highly skilled' , 'highly trained', and 'highly motivated' adults, but basically poorly trained, poorly motivated individuals who by and large are incapable of pursuing the 'career' they have chosen.

One of the basic principles of management is 'Work Smarter, not Harder or Longer', perhaps it's time Comrade Langland took this adage on board.

Might I suggest that in common with most Universities and Colleges of FE, that Dundee Uni is actually 'Overstaffed'!!!
86

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 22/02/2008 13:14:44
The internet was originally a way of transferring academic documents without needing to use snail mail. (the military origins is a myth although the military did pick it up from academia because it seemed that if one part of the net was taken out the net would still function). I'm can't remember if either end of Oxbridge was involved but may well have been.
87

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 13:15:09
#79 DO you deny that he is a successful man?

All I can see in your posting is sour grapes because someone in a position to be heard has made a statement with which you disagree. When Wendy does it you throw funding rows up, when Foulkes does it you throw all manner of personal abuse up, and when Langlands or anyone else who isn't "on message" as far as the SNP is concerned does it, you rake up more personal abuse.

I'm no fan of Patientline, I think their business model is disastrous, but Langlands was also a highly successful chief exec of the NHS, and before that held a range of other posts. Your attacks on him are based purely on your blind support for the SNP.
88

subrosa,

22/02/2008 13:16:37
# 53

You disappoint me Duncan. I thought you would have done some research before you replied to my post. Langlands is a well known labour supporter and spokesman. I know because I've witnessed his constant bashing of the SNP and Tories over the years. Also have a look at this link (and Craig is NOT an SNP supporter):
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2007/04/dundee_universi.html

Langlands contributes financially to labour's coffers (google it you'll find it easily). From the research I've done online, although brief, I haven't seen any contributions to the Tories or the Lib Dems.

So don't tell me how to support the political party of my choice. I always view politics from all sides and consider myself a fair commentator.

Before you comment on Dundee University come and live here - then you'll discover the damage this man is doing to the city's reputation all in the name of education. He's bringing a first class University to its knees - and I don't say that from a political standpoint, I say it as a Dundonian. He is greatly disliked by staff and community alike. Yes I realise Dundee is militant in its attitude (to do with its past) but for staff to be so determined to leave, not be sacked or made redundant, shows very poor management skills.

How can Dundee get rid of him? I don't know, but we've tried.

One thing he has done with his behaviour is politically hand over Dundee from labour to the SNP and still he won't shut up.
89

Fairfax,

22/02/2008 13:17:43
MtnKat (85): "Fairfax
I think you will find that the "phone in most Scots pockets is the creation of" a Japanese company."

I was referring to the CPU's design: that's ARM's creation, here in Cambridge. The manufacture isn't necessarily Japanese either: Nokia, the world's largest manufacturer of mobile phones, is a Finnish company.

Of course other companies are involved too: English company Vodafone is probably still the largest net provider in Scotland.
90

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 13:18:54
#91 Well you're wrong on a number of levels but there would be no point in correcting you. In any event, let me assure you that TCP/IP (that's the transfer control protocol/internet protocol), which forms the basis of what is called "the internet", was invented in the US.
91

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 22/02/2008 13:19:43
You really are a fool Duncan.
92

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 13:21:29
#93 Haha, Craig Murray is a smart and sensible fellow, who has made brave and necessary attacks on Labour and paid for them, but he is NOT a neutral commentator! Just because someone isn't an SNP supporter doesn't mean that they are even handed. Read what I said in #53 again - the world is not divided into SNP and others!
93

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 13:22:17
#96 see #87
94

kimba,

22/02/2008 13:22:29
Will alex be in government in 2 years time! I doubt it.
95

Fairfax,

22/02/2008 13:23:21
Duncan in Edinburgh (95): "TCP/IP (that's the transfer control protocol/internet protocol), which forms the basis of what is called "the internet", was invented in the US."

Most of the work was US-based, originating with DARPA, but not all. University College, London, also took part in the early work, cooperating with Stanford.
96

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 13:25:57
#100 AFAIK UCL was indeed involved in testing when academic institutions started to experiment with Arpanet type technologies, as were a range of other institutions outside the US. But I was responding to someone who claimed that "the internet" was developed in Oxford (or Cambridge), so I wanted to keep it simple.
97

subrosa,

22/02/2008 13:27:49
# 63

He was not relieved of his NHS post, he left in order to take over Dundee University. He was employed by Charles Clarke (then Education and Skills Secretary) in 2004 to head up a report on the Gateways into the Professions plus other government work.
He is an out and out labour supporter as I've already said.

Actually I couldn't care less who he supports as long as he gets out of Dundee Uni pronto and someone of the calibre of Michael Hamblin is put in the position.

Please get your facts right, I expect a better standard of argument from you.
98

subrosa,

22/02/2008 13:32:08
Sorry I should have said he was Patientline, the disgraceful rip-off of the sick, when he left the NHS in 2000 then of course Dundee Uni in 2004. Shows I can't multi-task today :)
99

,

22/02/2008 13:33:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
100

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 13:36:21
#102 And you gloss over the fact that before Labour came to power he was employed by the Tories.

Did they not realise at the time what an out-and-out Labour supporter he was?

Or are you in fact confusing someone who has been considered competent by various different governments for someone in the pocket of a single party?

It is your facts which appear to be somewhat heavily edited, not mine.
101

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 13:37:14
#104 Keep it up, you're being really persuasive. Tell me, at school were you known as a bully?
102

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

22/02/2008 13:40:27
Well I am Dundee grad (from a while back sadly) and while the teaching staff (including Profs) in the main were very good the management and in particular the central admin staff were dreadful - I can only hope they have improved. As for the uni, according to its latest report of the 3200 staff, only 700 do any teaching, another 600 are form research. Me thinks like so many institutions (I worked at another) they have slightly too much in the way of other staff, although I am not sure what ALC is.

On a different note, Dundee carries out some excellent research and has some very good teaching going on its various (now) colleges. Like many 60's uni's they often combine theory and practice very well, sadly though the UK being what it is little encouragement is given for institutions which improve, instead it is given to those who are already good. With the result that everything becomes somewhat easy to predict. If we had a system which placed as much emphasis on improvement as absolute scores then we would have many more good to excellent research based universities. This would grow their research base, thus also their ability to spin-outs and in the long term would probably lead to them becoming more self sufficient. Sadly though, those in power know where they want the money to go...

As for HE as a whole, their needs to be a radical re-think as to the nature of the subjects taught at university level. Many of the newer institutions provide excellent courses as well, but have been forced to create "interesting ones" to recruit more students in order to balance the books. While many of the older ones are teaching subjects of debatable use in the modern age, but which attract the right class of student :-)
103

subrosa,

22/02/2008 13:50:16
# 105

Yes I'm sure they did know his political stance but he was obviously the best man for that job in their view.

Will you get down off your political podium and look at what the man is doing in his present job please. He's in a position of respect and honour at the moment. He has misused his position by introducing his political views. Sadly he may have been an excellent Principal if he had done, as most people in his privileged position, kept quiet.

You have no comment about the fact that no other Scottish University is shouting about funding do you? Or that St Andrews is gaining more of a global reputation?

As for Craig Murray, like lots of us, he has his political leanings but he doesn't use his position to spread fear around a large community.

Langlands has/is doing nothing for Dundee University other than bringing its reputation down. Get in your car Duncan and spend an afternoon in Dundee asking about him - you'll not hear a positive word.
104

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 13:59:26
#108 Great, now we're talking about the issues instead of conducting a character assassination.

It's simply not true that no other university is shouting about funding. They all do so every year. Last year was the same, and so was the year before. A couple of years ago Edinburgh threatened to close various departments blaming Labour for mismanagement. It's the way these games are played.

Oh, and for you to suggest that Craig Murray doesn't use his position to spread his political opinions is pure denial. He has built a career out of it! That is what got him elected as rector for goodness sake.

I'll take you at your word that Langlands isn't popular in Dundee. Very few principals are universally liked. John Archer at HWU was a figure of ridicule until his early departure last year. Tim O'Shea at Edinburgh has effectively been isolated by the committees which really run the place. And Joan Stringer at Napier has more enemies in that institution than friends.

I wouldn't want to be a University Principal for any amount of money.
105

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 22/02/2008 14:17:15
Scotlands is no longer unique in offering free University education. In the last month Harvard, Yale Princeton, Stamford and the University of Pennsylvania have all announced that Students from Low and Middle Income families (below USD 180,000 in annual income)will now be able to attend for free. All this done without begging from the Public Purse. They rely on endowments from past graduates that they manage very effectively using hedge fund strategies developed by the failed Phsycists and Mathematicians that Matrin the Martian loves so much. I am not advocating this as the way forward for Scottish Universities but it might help if Universities looked for more sources of funding than just Goverment handouts.
106

Colin McDonald,

Walton-on-Thames 22/02/2008 14:34:25
#36 Marvin

"In relative terms the SNP budget is 100.95% of the previous administrations budget.

If the Universities costs, through inflation and purchase of new technologies, are >= 101% of the previous year then they have received a cut."

Just wondering what you mean by "in relative terms". Could you clarify please?

If, as it sounds, you mean you have made adjustments for the relative value of money between the two years, then inflation is already included. Therefore the universities have recieved 101% of the previous budget "in relative terms". Which is an increase, not a cut.

As for the purchase of new technologies - what nonsense! You realise that what you are saying is that if the unis choose to overspend their budget on new equipment, or anything else for that matter, that they have recieved a cut?? That is complete rubbish.
107

Fairfax,

22/02/2008 14:37:01
KampungHighlander (111): "Scotlands is no longer unique in offering free University education."

Let's remember here that the Parliamentary vote to end free tuition at English universities would not have been won without Scottish Labour MPs voting in Westminster for English tuition fees. To the SNP's credit, they did not vote on this issue.

"They rely on endowments from past graduates"

Endowments are an important part of their wealth, as are the extremely high fees from current students. This has consequences: for comparison, a full professor at Harvard earns some $200K per year, compared to typically half that at Cambridge, for example.
108

The Answer,

Glasgow 22/02/2008 14:38:19
The Rebel MC,22/02/2008 13:09:53
"South of the border English Universities are enjoying an additional 1.35 billion pounds from these fees as well additional funding from the taxpayer via the Higher Education Funding Council for England"

Public money to Scottish and English universities £7.8 billion

England £6.7 billion
Scotland £1.1 billion

Total new UK undergraduates 2007
307,000 England
27,218 Scotland

Top UP Fee's England

2007
309,000 students x £3000 = £927,000,000 (from students enrolled 2007)
278,000 students x £3000 = £834,000,000 (from students enrolled 2006)
301,000 students x £1,250 = £376,250,000 (from students enrolled 2005)

£2,137,250,000 Total top up fees collected by English universities 2007

Total income

£8.84 billion England
£1.1 billion Scotland

Scotland is well funded.
109

Fairfax,

22/02/2008 14:42:25
Here Today (107): "sadly though the UK being what it is little encouragement is given for institutions which improve, instead it is given to those who are already good."

That's simply not true. The RAE, for all its faults, has helped many institutions to grow in this way. To give only one example, Leicester University's mathematics department developed from near-stagnation in the early 1990s to a thriving 5-rated department now: one of its key professors was head-hunted by Edinburgh.

You're correct that success breeds success, but that's simply natural selection.
110

Miss H,

22/02/2008 14:57:31
Duncan. The SNP never said that the budget was a cut – they said it was the tightest financial settlement since devolution. We have had this argument before. Nevertheless even with the tightest financial settlement since devolution the SNP has managed to increase the proportion of the Scottish budget allocated to universities and higher education. Read what was said – Alex Salmond did not say that the growth would be larger than before, he said that the proportion of the budget allocated to HE funding is higher. This is what he said exactly: ‘Over the three years in total of the spending review period, expenditure on universities and higher education will increase in real terms. It will represent 3.18 per cent of total Scottish Government expenditure. In the spending reviews of 2002 and 2004, the figures stood at 3.13 per cent and 3.15 per cent.’ Either that is true or it is not. Which is it?

The fact is that Dundee university –as with other universities -is in a difficult budgetary situation. The Scottish Government is also in a difficult budgetary situation. They are having to make the best of it and so will Dundee University.

Dundee Uni can complain about it, point out that their spending is being squeezed – just as the SNP Government has pointed out that it’s spending is being squeezed – and then they should just get on with it and if they are wise get an interdict to stop Nicol Stephen talking about them because that man is a Jonah.

Incidentally I I thought Al Gore invented the internet…..

Only kidding.
111

Sanny,

22/02/2008 15:01:15
There was a time (before the Union Treaty) when England only had two universities- Cambridge and Oxford – whilst Scotland had five – Glasgow, Edinburgh, St Andrews and two in Aberdeen (Kings & Marischal). Scotland also had the most literate population in Europe. In England only the nobility were educated to any extent and the peasantry was illiterate. Since the Union there has been a steady deterioration in the quality of Scottish Education, which has accelerated over the last fifty years as our education system has been forced to match the inferior English tradition.

We have now arrived at a position where our Universities are no longer places of Academic Excellence but have become degree factories. Some of today’s degrees are little more than attendance certificates and not worth the paper they are written on. There are too many Comic Degrees in non-subjects with no serious academic content.

In addition to the overflow of degrees from our devalued Universities we have a dearth of technical qualifications, which are totally work orientated. I refer to the certificates once issued by Technical Colleges; the City & Guilds, ONC, HNC and the HND. These are the qualifications required by vast majority of the population who are the plumbers, electricians, gas-fitters, car mechanics, welders and yes - engineers, foremen and line managers. Most of these qualifications are gained whilst also working and thereby gaining practical skill in addition to technical knowledge (Not Obtainable at Any University). So Let’s keep the University places for those that require the higher level of academic input and that is a minority.

The bottom line is that we are spending huge sums on providing useless degrees to people who will stack shelves in supermarkets. Our Universities should be pruned down to provide the Academic level our country requires and not to provide sinecures for lazy academics. We need to determine the nations educational needs THEN decide on the funding requ
112

Fairfax,

22/02/2008 15:03:29
Duncan in Edinburgh (110): "John Archer at HWU was a figure of ridicule until his early departure last year."

Archer was equally loathed at Imperial College, London, his previous institution.

"Tim O'Shea at Edinburgh has effectively been isolated by the committees which really run the place."

O'Shea was extremely popular and effective at his previous institution (Birkbeck College, London). He doesn't seem particularly unpopular at Edinburgh, either, so I would say we're seeing university democracy at work via committees. VCs should be constitutional monarchs (like O'Shea at Edinburgh) rather than emulating CEOs (as Archer at HWU, or the execrable Sykes at Imperial College, London).
113

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 22/02/2008 15:17:39
#2 Pure gibberish !
114

Sanny,

22/02/2008 15:23:28
113 Fairfax
Quote
Let's remember here that the Parliamentary vote to end free tuition at English universities would not have been won without Scottish Labour MPs voting in Westminster for English tuition fees.
End Quote.

Not true! I think you need lessons in basic arithmetic. Labour has such a majority that the Scottish vote is irrelevant.

You obviously subscribe the idea that Scottish WMP’s should not vote on English matters do you carry this to its logical conclusion that Non-Scottish WMP’s should not vote on Scottish matters? Increasing segregation of Scottish – and Welsh or Irish – matters would lead us nicely to Independence. One final thought for those so concerned about the less than 10% effect of the Scottish vote would you agree that Scottish matters have been dominated for three hundred years by the 90% English vote?
115

Sanny,

Upwey 22/02/2008 15:25:46
119 connaughtboy
It's all he is capable of!!
116

,

22/02/2008 15:33:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
117

Fairfax,

22/02/2008 15:41:33
Sanny (120): "Not true! I think you need lessons in basic arithmetic. Labour has such a majority that the Scottish vote is irrelevant. "

The Government won the 2004 vote on the Higher Education Bill by 316 votes to 311, despite its then majority of 161 seats: see

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3434329.stm

On that occasion some 46 Scottish Labour MPs voted with the Government; see

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/scotland/3432767.stm

I'll leave you to compute 316-46; do post again if it's too difficult.

"You obviously subscribe the idea that Scottish WMP’s should not vote on English matters do you carry this to its logical conclusion that Non-Scottish WMP’s should not vote on Scottish matters?"

Yes. I'm not a Unionist.

118

Fairfax,

22/02/2008 15:56:11
Methalions (121): "Afternoon geeks. What does this mean and how come?

49204561742046726F6773"

It's ASCII. Anyone interested can convert via here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascii
119

Marvin the Martian,

22/02/2008 16:02:39
112 Colin McDonald

You are a moron and incapable of rational thought.

If a technology changes then it needs to be replaced. Simple as that, that costs money. You can't just teach people on obsolete machines ever to stay in budget you d!ckhead.

Get a fecking education you tool. What is the goal of education to teach planks like yourself that staying budget is the goal of higher education or to actually teach people how to use modern technology.

You have a history degree right?! No wait, you comment was soooo plankish you have no qualifications to speak of. Universities should be run like McDonalds franchises.

Plank.
120

subrosa,

22/02/2008 16:03:10
# 110

I'm aware that Scottish Universities shout every year regarding funding.

As for Langlands and Dundee University, in my many (and I mean many) years of connection with this university I've never heard of a Principal being spoken of with such negativity by locals. In fact, with the exception of one over the years, all have been highly regarded and their utterances given due respect.

This man must go. He is abusing his position as a person responsible for the higher education of our young (and more mature).
121

Fairfax,

22/02/2008 16:11:41
Sanny (117): "There was a time (before the Union Treaty) when England only had two universities- Cambridge and Oxford – whilst Scotland had five"

There were also English institutions which, whilst not universities, produced much useful research, such as Gresham College in London. There is also the important point that quality beats quantity.

"In England only the nobility were educated to any extent and the peasantry was illiterate."

Where do you get this? One of the key changes during Henry VIII's reign was the dominance of "new men", i.e. educated non-nobility. Surely even Scots have heard of Thomas More, for example?
122

Sgurr,

22/02/2008 16:25:30
Langlands must feel pretty flat having had one of Salmond's re-buttels land on him.
123

Iain Percival,

Den Haag 22/02/2008 16:45:42
Unfortunately Mr Salmond is no different from most if not all politicians; long on rhetoric and very short with the "readies". On the occasion of my son's graduation from the University of St. Andrews last November I listened to Salmond's party political broadcast, sorry speech, with growing disbelief. He painted a picture of a small country giving absolutely top priority to secondary and tertiary education, able to compete with the best globally and certainly south of the border. The speech was just waffle because we all know the true state of affairs. The Scottish universities are in a parlous financial state and yet will not be able to set fee levels to survive and / or compete globally - never mind across the border. The Scottish secondary school system (deemed by some as one of the best in the world) is now failing the ablest and best as apparently the teaching of Advanced Highers heads the way of the dodo. Come on Salmond - stop the babble and start ensuring (continued) delivery of quality education.
124

Talorthane,

22/02/2008 16:50:37
Here's an interesting by-election result.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/7259039.stm

SNP - 1,891 votes
Conservatives - 940 votes
Lib Dems - 229 votes
Labour - 97 votes

In percentage terms:

SNP - 60%
Con - 30%
Lib - 7%
Lab - 3%
125

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 16:54:18
#136 Interesting in the sense that it proves that a monkey with an SNP badge could have won up there? Or, don't tell me, in that it reflects the view of Scotland as a whole and demonstrates how successful the SNP government has been?

Pull the other one.
126

Doh,

22/02/2008 16:57:05
#136

What is interesting about this result?

Also what has it got to do with this story?

Seriously if you find this by-election interesting I suggest you get some more hobbies.

Did anyone watch "magnetic north" last night?

127

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/02/2008 17:02:02
137. What do you think of Labour's impressive 3% showing? Surely even a monkey could have got 4%?
128

Talorthane,

22/02/2008 17:06:32
#138 Doh

"Also what has it got to do with this story?"

I'm sorry Mr. Doh, I thought this was the politics section.
129

Doh,

22/02/2008 17:10:41
#139 Meths

yeh I would say so - but Jonathan Meades is maybe a bit of an aquired taste - the show was produced by
BBC Scotland - so full marks to them.
130

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/02/2008 17:13:54
#140 It's meaningless. But then, I would say that, wouldn't I.
131

Nikostratos,

22/02/2008 17:14:02
.


News
Politics
Talorthane.........

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics

Conservatives' 37%
Labour 34%
liberals 21%
others including the snp 9%



132

Doh,

22/02/2008 17:16:59
#141 Talor

Oh I see, council by-election, politics, got it.

My apologies for underplaying the signicance of this local result following the sad death of the sitting SNP councillor.

Knicker gripping stuff.
133

Nikostratos,

22/02/2008 17:17:11
Alistair Darling and the Government have won public backing for the nationalisation of Northern Rock as the legislation cleared its final parliamentary hurdles last night.

A special Populus poll forThe Times shows that half of the public backs nationalisation and supports Mr Darling remaining as Chancellor despite Conservative calls for his resignation
134

Nikostratos,

22/02/2008 17:17:58
#145

HE.HE.HE
135

Jimmy the Pie,

22/02/2008 17:21:00
147
Alistair Darling for Scottish New Labour Sleaze and Corruption leader??

What did you all think of Wendy's stunning performance at FMQ's yesterday???
136

The Master,

22/02/2008 17:21:42
#136: A result from the very heart of Tartan Tory country! Ooh!! This surely means that the SNP are going to sweep the boards in Scotland (with the Tories not far behind), come the general election! You Nutty Nats must be ecstatic! Get out on the town tonight and perform one of your Tartan Tory Tangoes in every pub along the way!
137

The Master,

22/02/2008 17:24:10
“The First Minister told MSPs universities were getting a bigger share of government cash than in the past but all were also being expected to look for efficiencies.”

That’s all very well, Alex, but its as against their English counterparts that the universities will be mentioned. Tuition fees would vastly increase their resources, as in England.

“Mr Salmond told him the university had been looking to make efficiencies for some time, and claimed that process had started in February last year – when Mr Stephen was deputy first minister.”

Well done, Alex: the standard excuse of an administration which hasn’t been in power for long. How much longer will this excuse be available, particularly if you’re able to win the next Holyrood election before the public at large tumbles to your complete lack of substance. However, no doubt the Nat Fanatics will applaud you to the rafters as usual: all they’ll be able to see is a clever piece of political chicanery which has completely outmanouvred Nicol Stephen. Deluded idealists or simply nutty? It’s a close call.
138

boudica,

Glasgow 22/02/2008 17:24:23
34 ..Spot on ..you took the words straight of my keyboard but you did it so elequently ..hehe
139

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/02/2008 17:25:00
143. Why is a real election meaningless?

140

Doh,

22/02/2008 17:34:06
#154

It is *very* significant.
Probably as significant as the Labour victory in the Kilsyth ward of North Lanarkshire Council.
I dont have the details as I am off out tonight - but hopefully Talorthane will post them as well.
A bit suprised Duncan didnt - his pager must be offline.
141

Miss H,

22/02/2008 17:35:29
151 Master. Hate to break it to you every party in Scotland is against top up fees. The Tories are also against top up fees south of the border and given that they are likely to form the next government of the UK I think you are backing the losing side in this debate.

In any case this is Scotland, not England. We don't have to do everything England does. What we need is have a higher education sector which takes students on the basis of the ability to learn, not the ability to pay, which is geared to the needs of our economy, not the UK economy. That may mean more courses in certain areas and fewer in others. It certainly means a greater requirement for efficiency. Every sector that gets shedloads of public money - and universities will be getting over £5billion from the Scottish Government over the next 3 years - needs to demonstrate that it is spending public money in an efficient way. Maybe if you were a taxpayer you would appreciate that.
142

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/02/2008 17:38:51
156. Miss H

i believe Labour's 2001 manifesto had an explicit statement against tuition and top up fees. Seems Labour were against them in their manifesto, before introducing them.
143

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/02/2008 17:39:48
155. Did the SNP get 3% of the vote in Kilsyth, or slightly more?
144

d.j.,

22/02/2008 17:43:36
156
Good on you.
At least one person who thinks that everything done in England does not need to be replicated in Scotland. Maybe, someday in the near to far distant future someone will come forward in Scotland who has ideas that fit into a mould that is not the same as in England. May we live to see the day.
145

Miss H,

22/02/2008 17:53:53
155 and 136 I think those results are interesting. Not who won them - they were always going to be won by the people that won them.

But look at what is happening to the Lib Dem vote. 17 votes in Kilsyth - they came last, well behind the Greens. Even in Kilsyth 17 votes is dire.

And not good in Highland ward either. The Tory vote seems to have held up OK and Labour did not bad considering I don't think they have never stood there before.

But the Lib Dems .. methinks they are in trouble.
146

Miss H,

22/02/2008 17:56:32
157 And the Tories voted against their introduction. Indeed there is only one reason that England has top up fees - because Scottish Labour MPs voted that way.

Cue quite justifiable cries of 'Shame'.
147

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/02/2008 18:04:45
161 Gaurdian Poll:

- SDP - 41%
- Others, including UK conservatives <1%

(German poll, I'll leave Niko to explain its relevance)

148

Andrew Allan,

22/02/2008 18:18:52
Whoever has been administering to the financial side of things at Dundee University should be shot, figuratively speaking that is, how is it possible you get more money and still need to make cuts of £3 million, and you are able to do so without touching your teaching staff. It is about are run using a task orientated management system, and cut down with the commitees to a bare minimum, this should cut the waste, and speed along any developments needed to improve facilities.
149

Doh,

22/02/2008 19:20:19

#155

Apparantly the SNP got 30.23% of the vote.

Not enough to win in what is "target seat" - i.e. one they might hope to win at the next General Election.
On the basis of that council by-election I think I would be willing to risk a pint that Labour hold on.

#162 Miss H

Wishful thinking on your part - I am sure you have heard the expression "paper candidates" - I dont think either of these by-elections have much significance on the LibDems chances of winning seats or indeed ontheir national popular vote.

However the speculation is tiresome and really the reserve of those that have nothing better to do.
When the next election comes I will be happy to accept it - the SNP supporters I doubt will be so happy when their policy of seperation is rejected once again.

How many Westminster MPs do you think the SNP will win 5 or do you thinks you night get into double figures?




150

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/02/2008 19:33:59
166. Sureley the Kilsyth ward is just a part (1/4?) of a "target" seat? And why not just await the result of the general election in that seat rather than arrogantly pre-suppose and predict the voters choice?

151

Nikostratos,

22/02/2008 19:37:44
Methalions

well who has got your vote.....PSOE Socialists or the Partido Popular



The latest opinion poll on voters intentions published on Friday by the CIS, Centre for Sociological Investigation, shows a further narrowing of the distance between the two main parties ahead of the general election on March 9.

The survey which relates to questions asked of 18,221 people across the country gives the PSOE Socialists 40.2% of the vote, while the Partido Popular is just 1.5% behind

#164 smarty pants

oh yeah right sure no problem..........

152

Miss H,

22/02/2008 19:45:53
166 I have been a paper candidate - but 17 votes is more like a cigarette paper candidate. Even if they didn't put out a single leaflet (and the Lib Dems usually put out about 19 in a by-election) they should have got more votes than that. So aside from the dreadfully low support it shows that their organisation is in a shambles.

I think the SNP will win between 15 - 20 seats in the general election.

I would put money on the Lib Dems coming a cropper at both the euro and general election.
153

Doh,

22/02/2008 19:55:23
#169 MissH

If the LibDems put out 19 leaflets and got 17 votes I would say that was a bit of a result.

Instead of telling us how much a cropper the LibDems will come at the next election - why dont you tell us your prediction for the SNP result - I did ask if you thought you would win between 5 and 10 seats - only.

BTW what have the euro elections to do with anything -I guess the libDems will hold their seat - but really who cares - you seem to have an unhealthy obsession!

It doesnt look as if the SNP are about to win Kilsyth -I think that is a safe bet since I have had no takers.

Its not quite time.


154

The Strategist,

22/02/2008 20:09:10
#117 Sanny

Read this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7256209.stm

155

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/02/2008 20:23:43
170. How very unionist of you to predict the mind-set, thinking and voting choice of the Scottish electorate years before an election and in absence of knowledge of factors that will sway peoples' choices.
156

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 22/02/2008 20:41:43
Yet another SNP victory.

Poor Labour 97 votes out of an eligible electorate of 7,282

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/7259039.stm
157

Reckless,

Corrupt EU 22/02/2008 21:30:34
"There will not be a blueprint for a federal Europe" - Edward Heath, as Prime Minister, House of Commons, 25th February 1970

Presenter (Peter Sissons): "the single currency; a United States of Europe; was that in your mind when you took Britain in?" Edward Heath: "Of course, yes" [BBC Question Time 1st November 1991]

http://www.eurofaq.freeuk.com/eurofaq.html#210
158

Miss H,

22/02/2008 21:32:08
170 I did say how many I think we will win.

Doh.

Kilsyth is a ward not a seat For Westminster it is part of the Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintillock East constituency.
159

subrosa,

23/02/2008 00:49:32
# 134

So you don't think your son received a quality degree because of the lack of funding at St Andrews? That's what your comment amounts to. St Andrews is known world-wide and it will always be so. It has good management which encourages inward investment (didn't you read yesterday's article).

Sir, I have to agree with Alex Salmond about the standard of our higher education in the top universities. Sadly the best technical colleges in the UK have been made universities and have lost their status and struggle along offering poor quality degrees in lots of cases, just in order to get bums on seats.

Our school system has gone into decline because of years of neglect by the labour party. They rode on the back of its reputation from the 50s without investing decent money into staffing or buildings.

Changes will not happen overnight but let's give the new Scottish government the benefit of the doubt that they will happen. If they don't then they know full well that they will pay at the ballot box.
160

Murray in Canada,

Salt Spring Island 23/02/2008 01:38:12
How exactly did Langland get that job? What's his salary? How long is he in it for? [There must be some term to it.] It'd be worth it to give him a Lords seat and let him stagnate there.
161

laoban,

borders 23/02/2008 04:32:09

Leadership is a constant balancing of both shot term and long term decisions. One might ask the question differently: for a country the size of Scotland..just how many universities are really needed...maybe a solution would be to consolidate to a few really great places...and save a significant amount of redundant back office costs.
162

mr angry,

ayrshire 23/02/2008 07:57:21
#36 Marvin , were you using Martian mathematics to do your counting. An increase from 3.15% to 3.18% is in actual fact an overall increase of 0.95% , which in any persons language proves Alex Salmonds statement. You are very obviously a labour supporter and use figures a la Wendy.
163

Jimmy the Pie,

23/02/2008 08:38:22
Big shortage of political stories today?
Oh well not to worry.
The Sunday Post will soon be out with some more cutting edge stories.
Does anyone buy Scotsman 'premium content'??
164

Brian M,

Edinburgh 23/02/2008 09:03:07
such a shortage of political stories that they include the non-political theft charge of Sheridan's wife.
165

Talorthane,

Lennoxtown 23/02/2008 09:41:49
166 Doh

"However the speculation is tiresome and really the reserve of those that have nothing better to do."

"When the next election comes I will be happy to accept it - the SNP supporters I doubt will be so happy when their policy of seperation is rejected once again."

Surely your predication of the independence referendum is also speculation.

Have you nothing better to do either?
166

George Coutts,

Iceland 24/02/2008 16:49:18
Get this and choke. Universities are famous for taking on overseas students. This in turn means the University needs more cash to cover the over expansion.
Cut back and Educate home grown talent and not overload until hand outs are needed.
The hard fact is that LESSONING UNIVERSITIES WILL NOT HINDER THE SCOTS. jUST MAKE IT LEANER AND MEANER!!!!!!!
167

Phillip,

25/02/2008 23:14:17
Get rid of the non-teaching parasites who bloat Uni staffs and you won't have to worry about budgets.

And if Labour wanted more money for HE, they should have forced through the useless Tram.

 

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