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1

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 27/08/2008 00:06:13
Where does he stand on the 10% oil fund? Joe Grimmond, a Shetland MP, ensured that Shetland got a good deal. Will Mr. Scott, as a Shetland MSP who no doubt like his predecessor desires to be First Minister, deny the rest of Scotland a fair deal?

When are the Lib Dems going to start pushing their beliefs, such as belief in a Local Income Tax, which they have been all but silent on in recent months? Surely, with some negotiation with the SNP, this could have been delivered by now. So why have they been so reticent?

As for the multi-option referendum: the SNP have suggested in the past that they are open to the idea. But if it happens the Lib Dems will have to put forward their case, of what they stand for (not just that they dislike the SNP). I thought they stood for federalism but the F word is rarely used by the Lib Dems these days and they have certainly expended no energy on arguing its merits. What, then, are the merits of federalism? And are the Lib Dems even able to deliver on this issue?
2

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 27/08/2008 00:10:35
"The leadership result was announced at Murrayfield Stadium in Edinburgh"

In a VERY small function room I would imagine
3

Conan the Librarian™,

27/08/2008 00:18:05
1
Good points Gregor.I too seem to remember the libs wanting a Federal UK.

With an enthusiastic John Cleese pointing at whiteboards on a video.

4

Conan the Librarian™,

27/08/2008 00:22:12
3
Evening Col.

I'm losing patience with someone.
5

Resolutions,

27/08/2008 00:29:38
Good points Gregor.

Unless they start standing up for their ideals and beliefs, oblivion will follow rapidly.

Is it too late and is this the guy to do it?

Very doubtful.
6

Conan the Librarian™,

27/08/2008 00:31:09
7
You are a fourth columnist by the way.

I hope he was trying to be funny.
7

Conan the Librarian™,

27/08/2008 00:37:44
Aye. The Scotsman.
8

Conan the Librarian™,

27/08/2008 00:42:39
14
Meet a Scotsman in a bar?

But please go on Col.
9

Senga Jean,

27/08/2008 01:21:41
Well they are under starters orders and they are off And Tavish Scott is leading by a nose.....Oh Dear a crocodile appears from no where and with tears in its eyes squeeks "That's the way to do it" But he steels himself before he is rumbled "Oh No" he falls at the first fence....gosh is that the time? G'nite All.
10

Wisnaeme,

27/08/2008 02:01:03

Ach so.

Just a consideration then?

A maybe aaaaaaaye or maybe a nnnnnnnnno.

A sometime, maybe, never, he11 will freeze over first, suggestive digestive for mass public consumption..,

and for the gullible.

Still in touch with establishment 'Mingin' then.
.

11

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 27/08/2008 02:16:48
Actually it's a two horse race. And this looser it totally irrelevant. Wake me up when it's over.
12

Brian Hill,

27/08/2008 02:18:58
"........it was something he was prepared to consider???"

No Mr Scott, it's something you, like every other MSP who values his job will support wholeheartedly because by the time 2010 comes around the people of this country will be demanding a referendum on the Independence and not you or anyone else will even think about defying it or even attempt to amend the question.

But it's good to see you are finally getting the message.
13

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 27/08/2008 02:23:07
The lib dems returning to thier beliefs, what beliefs, all they know about is to BELEIVE IN WHEN THEY WILL CHANGE THIER MINDS. They are in fourth position now and will be squeezed off the Political Map before 2009.Irrelevance comes to mind!!!!Good luck tavish, you are going to need it.
14

Traquir , Alba,

27/08/2008 04:08:56
"A spokesman for the First Minister congratulated Mr Scott on his election, but then compared his confusing stance on a referendum with that of the former Labour leader Wendy Alexander"

So a major U-Turn out of the gate :

"Tavish Scott, the hard-line referendum opponent"

From Ming Campbell
"So long as an independence referendum was at the heart of Alex Salmond’s position, I think people who had been elected, as the MSPs were, on a quite different platform, would want to think twice before any coalition. One of the reasons I’ve declared for Tavish Scott is that I think he’s got clear views about these matters."

see - tinyurl.com/5epmdr

It would appear the U-Turns on referednums
is not the only similarity that Tavish has
with Wendy.

"Another to take advantage of the system was transport minister Tavish Scott who, having bought a £380,000 family home in Edinburgh, charged the public purse £1000 a month in mortgage interest. He had previously claimed rent on a flat owned by his sister, which he subsequently bought and then sold on for a profit of £38,000."

see - tinyurl.com/6d2q3s

Highly negative attacks on the SNP, U-Turns,
stretching the rules on Expenses all
sounds very déjà vu -
have the liberals elected a male version of
Wendy ? I wonder who the liberal version
of Jackie Baillie will be :)
15

Linda,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 06:43:37
And does Tavish agree with Liberal Peers Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer and Dick Taverne that the £2.4 million donation the Lib Dems received from a wanted man is tainted and should be returned?

From The Times Online 27 October 2005
The Times today revealed that Michael Brown faces up to five years in jail after skipping probation in Florida seven years ago while owning money to a court. He has been accused of bouncing 12 cheques worth more than $7,300. He said that he was "truly shocked" to learn that he was regarded as an absconder on court papers.
There is no precedent for a British political party keeping major funding from a donor who was a wanted man when the gift was made.
Michael Brown is a tax exile who gave the Lib Dems £2.4 million through a company which did not trade in the UK which is against Electoral Commission rules.

Google… Michael Brown £2.4 million donation for the full story
16

Jock ex 45Cdo RM,

THORNHILL 27/08/2008 07:00:36
Tavish, go with the flow. Be a big player even in opposition within a self managed country. We, and I include you, can help steer this country of ours away from international tension and conflict. Look and admire Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands and I could go on. Be brave with a broad outlook.
17

Jim boy,

dunedin 27/08/2008 07:01:46
Tavish states 'but I believe it should be a strengthened Scotland within the UK.'

So, if it needs to be strengthened, there obviously was a problem before. What was the problem?

18

Tynietiger,

27/08/2008 07:04:54
AS we can't comment on the British Nationalist letters I would like to say what about those narrow Welsh Nationalist athletes and spectators who on BBC TV last night flew the Welsh Dragon in defiance of Team GBs (Gordon Brown's) master race project.

I wonder if our supine athletes and spectators will fly the Saltire this evening?
19

Boy Wonder,

27/08/2008 07:36:44
I see the Libdumbs have elected another Ginger to lead them. Haven't past flirtations with redheads not warned them enough??
20

LEAL,

27/08/2008 07:40:40
31
I think a fairer way would be to hold a referendum on
1) independence
2)union
If the Scottish people decide to stay within the union,but express a clear desire for more powers/federalism,a referendum should be held on that issue.It must be remembered that the Scottish people have the right to choose whether to stay in the union or not,but they have no right to dictate to the rest of the union how the union is to be federated.The people of the whole UK will have to want a federal UK and vote for it in a UK wide referendum.I cant see any real demand for federation in middle England,where this will be decided.
21

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 27/08/2008 07:46:51
Why hasn't Salmond backed Abkhasia's and South Ossetia's fight for independence?
22

Climate change is a fraud,

27/08/2008 07:48:50
The SNP and Libs both support the EU, so independence really means Scotland becoming an insignificant state of the EU.

VOTE UKIP for real independence. Independence fromt the EU Soviet!

VOTE UKIP in Glenrothes.
23

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 27/08/2008 08:13:36
I think that Tavish Scott is experiencing displacement since his description of the SNP government(arrogant,misguided and dishonest) is how many people have percieved the Liberal Democrats in recent times.Anecdotal evidence indicates that is even how some of their members view them.

However,the real disapointment is that Scott views rhetoric,innuendo and slogans as the way forward.When will opposition parties put the electorate before their narrow political gain? The SNP government are a minority government of a parliment with very limited powers.They only control a small proportion of Scotlands money and they are also confronted by a very aggressive Labour administration in London,that puts party politics before the interests of the Scottish electorate.The SNP government are popular because they are doing a good job within very tight constraints. However, no administration in Edinburgh could possibly achieve all of the aspirations of their electorate since they do not have access to most of the countries wealth,unlike fully independant governments.

A mature opposition would be honest enough to acknowledge those constraints and work with the governing party to overcome the barriers to delivering what the electorate want.Instead of waiting for the government to fail,they should be focused on helping to solve the problems faced by the Scottish government.Otherwise,they are putting party politics before the needs of the electorate.That is why Tavish Scotts rhetoric,as reported in this newspaper,is so diapointing.However,I think he will find,as Labour has,that an incresingly sophisticated electorate,wont buy this anymore.
24

jdships,

27/08/2008 08:14:00
Sorry Tavish
Lib/Dems = Irrelevance = wasted vote at an election .
25

Tom R,

27/08/2008 08:27:17
In electing Tavish Scott the Lib Dems have elected the most unionist of the three candidates, whatever his pretence about "considering" a referendum on independence.

All we need now is for the most unionist of the three Labour leadership candidates,Iain Gray, to be elected and the SNP will face two party leaders whose defining posture is one of subservience to their party leaders in London.

The SNP will find it very easy in such a situation to point out which party can pursue Scotland's genuine interests best.
26

,

27/08/2008 08:27:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
27

Mikey,

27/08/2008 08:30:32
The question in the referendum is easy.

"Do you want the Scottish government to renegotiate the terms of the Act of Union?"

Yes
No

And for lib Dums,

Mibbe.....
28

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 27/08/2008 08:46:21
Please answer my question at 34.
29

Senga Jean,

27/08/2008 08:50:24
#44 Have you stopped fiddling while Rome burns? Answer YES or NO!
30

Linda,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 08:55:15
W u Merchant

Why has Tavish Scott and Gordon Brown not supported Russia and decreed that the red white and blue flag be flown at all times.
31

Sile,

Planet Earth 27/08/2008 08:58:23
30# Don't show your ignorance laddie it was the Olympic committee and China that decreed only Flags that represented the teams to be flown, as much as it sticks in your throat it was TEAM GB so only the Jack was allowed, you can fly as many saltires as you like but the contestants were there as reps for the UK, get over it, just be proud of their achievment..
32

Kick the pig party,

27/08/2008 08:59:17
Tavish is guy who hates the SNP, stormed off in the huff during the coalition forming talks and bitterly misses his ministerial car. The man was focussed on keeping his party neither liberal nor democratic when opposing a referendum in 2010. Has he finally seen sense? Has he realised that it's going to happen and his small, increasingly irelevant party should try to be on the right side of the argument when it comes?
I can't help thinking that he and his party will continue in their insignificance in Scottish politics. I look forward to the results of the 2011 Holyrood poll when the Greens beat the LibDems into 5th place. Unless the Libdems come out in complete support of the proposed referendum question that is what will happen to them. I suspect we'll hear more excuses about the wording of the question. Exciting times watching a party die...
33

brownlie,

27/08/2008 08:59:53
44 WUM

What is your interest in Abkhasia and South Assetia? Have they got weapons of mass destruction which could decimate the UK in 45 minutes?
34

Darien,

Panama 27/08/2008 09:01:47
Tavish was totally against Independence and refused to go into coalition with the SNP because of their commitment to a referendum. Now he is ok about a referendum? Looks as if he sees the way the wind is blowing after Glasgow East, soon Glenrothes etc. Aye, some politicians would sell their grannies to keep a place at the trough, and in that respect FibDums are just like New Labour.
35

brownlie,

27/08/2008 09:12:50
Is this the party that publicly were against the Iraq invasion but, in Scotland, stayed in coalition with the party that instigated the invasion?

They could have taken a significant, and popular, stance if they had refused to carry on the coalition but privileges overcame principles and ministerial cars more important that human lives.
36

adl333,

Linlithgow 27/08/2008 09:21:24
Politician in WANTS MORE POWER FOR SELF IN FUTURE SHOCK!!

U-Turn by Lavish Tavish just as he gets closer to the trough! More power, more expenses.

I'm sure that this wasnt what the poor misguided people voted for in the 1999 (land of milk & honey) devolution referendum (independence or the expensive politicians & bureaucracy).

You can always trust a LibDem - to do whatever is in their own self-interest, whichever way the wind is blowing that day.

Any process that allows these charlatans to influence the majority in a hung parliament is fundamentally flawed.
37

Alan B,

27/08/2008 09:21:56
Really cannot understand the lib dems. Scotland could really do with a rejuvinated lib dems but they seem intend on electral suicide. It is almost like watching the uk tories after getting beaten in 97.

It is a shame. With labour so inherently corrupt and the tories still struggling to recover after their anti scottish period in the 80s, scotland does need some alternative parties.
38

Alan B,

27/08/2008 09:29:45
#brownlie

It might have taken longer than 45 minutes but Brown managed to decimate the UK anyway. Brown the chancellor of mass destruction.
39

Alan B,

27/08/2008 09:34:16
Does anyone think the unionist new tactic against independence is to appoint the worst leaders to their parties. We have seen wendy now we will have one of the three stooges. And now we have scott.

Do the unionist parties want scotland to look at these people and then reject independence as our party leaders are so incompetent.

The biggest flaw in this plan is they have not worked out Brown is leading labour in westminster and has brought new meaning to incompetence.
40

Marian,

27/08/2008 09:42:09
It appears that the opposition parties at Holyrood are obsessed with going up the blind alley of trying to "land one on Alex Salmond" rather than working constructively with the SNP Government to look after the interests and priorities of Scots.
41

Darien,

Panama 27/08/2008 09:51:34
Norway, a small oil-rich nation, and still discovering loads of the black gold (see article below, published today). A State-owned oil company too, keeps all the cash in house as it were. Tavish knows what an oil fund has done for Shetland. He if anyone should realise what it can do for Scotland. Does he really see benefits in Westmonster squandering all our resources on illegal wars, nuclear weapons, dodgy international deals, and fancy financial tricks in the City like Northern Crock? Naw, c'mon Tavish, take your LibDem mates into the warm waters of Independence. Do it now. You could be Scotland's Foreign Minister in a SNP-LibDem coalition! - something you could never be at UK level - not even Ming the Minger ever achieved anything like it. C'mon, go for it. Do it soon, before its too late for you and your party. Your party needs a big push and this could be it. Feel the way the wind is blawin!

"StatoilHydro finds biggest oilfield off Norway in a decade

STATOILHYDRO has discovered the largest oil field off Norway for almost a decade which will be developed in the next five years, writes Martyn Wingrove in Stavanger.

The state-run company now thinks it has more than 200m barrels of oil reserves in the Dagny-Ermintrude oil field and this is enough for StatoilHydro to consider a stand alone project.

StatoilHydro head of Norwegian exploration Tim Dodson said the North Sea field is the largest discovery in Norway since Italian firm Eni drilled into the Goliat structure in the Barents Sea in 2000.

The structure is north of StatoilHydro’s Sleipner gas production platforms, but because it is oil, there is no pipeline to transport stabilised crude to a terminal, so shuttle tankers will be needed in any development solution.

Mr Dodson said it is too early to choose a development solution, but oil field developments in this area involve floating production storage and offloading vessels and jack-up platforms and storage vessels.

“With 200m barrels a
42

cataibh,

Over the Struie 27/08/2008 10:01:32
No 51 you have got it in one. Well done
43

Doh,

27/08/2008 10:08:07
"But after he was elected leader yesterday, Mr Scott softened his stance on a referendum, saying it was something he was prepared to consider."

Well if he had said that during the leadership election campaign I might of even voted for him.

Anyway he should be thinking about the popularity of the SNP. That is not his job.

His priority should be to promote LibDem policies and not just to slag the SNP. Labour will do that.
44

Doh,

27/08/2008 10:14:36
#57 AlanB

Time will tell - but Tavish will be a good leader of the LibDems - *if* he learns from last years mistakes -we will make gains at the next election.

Reports of our death are greatly exaggerated.


45

tassiestag,

rosebery 27/08/2008 10:15:45
cut oot a'this c..p........rebuild hadrians wall.and ca'it "sandys dyke" .....scotlands independent,an'thats it.
46

Morbo,

27/08/2008 10:19:28
They've elected the guy who wants to tax us out of our cars. Chances of them getting my vote - zero.
47

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 10:31:11
57 Alan B
It's hard to see a meaningful role for the LibDems in Scotland. In rather old fashioned terms, Labour in Scotland (depending on new leader) appear to be be placing themselves to the left of the SNP and the Tories to the right. There doesn't seem to be any space for the LibDems to occupy.
48

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 27/08/2008 10:41:15
#68 Ugly George

If only we could understand what they're for it would help! For years now I've tried to understand the Lib Dems but end up confused at their stance if you could call it that. In recent times this seems to be to cosy up to the party in power to gain ministerial Mondeos whilst avoiding any awkward issues like independence etc.

49

donald,

glasgow 27/08/2008 10:52:20
"New Lib Dem leader will CONSIDER backing vote on independence" And he accused Alex of dithering?
50

Darien,

Panama 27/08/2008 10:53:10
#68 Labour are still there in Scotland, they will not disappear completely, unfortunately. But both LibDems and Tories are also struggling badly in Scotland - operating on their own is fruitless and their only destination at the moment is moving closer to oblivion. The only real hope for either of the latter two (in Scotland that is) is to ally with the SNP, who are on a roll. My feeling is that either the Scottish Tories or the LibDems will move a lot closer to the SNP very soon, probably after Glenrothes. The one who moves first will have most to gain. In my view that will be the LibDems as they are more pragmatic and maybe a bit less UK-sentimentalist (or UK-fundamentalist?) than the Tories.
51

Darien,

Panama 27/08/2008 10:57:15
#70 "At least now we know, that the SNP intend to pay for shiny bridges by nationalising the oil and gas industry."

Not exactly what I said, was it. You should get a job with the meejah.
52

wattie>x 1,

PLYMOUTH 27/08/2008 11:01:56
How considerate Tavish?

Can't help but notice he has the usual hallmark of most modern day politician; the sham mocking grin!

Not as convincing as Comrade Stalin Brown's famous grin!

There is no shortage off oil ANY WHERE!

There only is, when those who control it, DECIDE when and where in order to suit their own financial greed and power clout!
53

morris,

edinburgh 27/08/2008 11:02:34
48
Sile,
Planet Earth 27/08/2008 08:58:23

So if the team represents the United Kingdom................................why is it called Great Britain?

Maybe you should get on top of it!
54

morris,

edinburgh 27/08/2008 11:06:30
63
Doh,
27/08/2008 10:08:07

He did NOT soften his stance as you put it.Either you agree with democracy or you dont !

He either (1)backs the peoples right to a referendum or (2)like his predecessor fears the outcome.

Since its not 1 it must be 2.

NOT DEMOCRATIC!
55

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 11:07:12
61 Darien
If you are going to quote Norway and its oil fund you have to lok at the whole picture. Norway has put money into an oil fund but it has also funded its expenditure with very high taxation:
VAT at 25% including VAT on food
Income tax starting at 28%

The recent CPPR study from Glasgow University showed that over the last 5 years Scotland's "geographical share" of North Sea revenues did not even cover the deficit in the Scottish budget let alone leave anything for an oil fund. The annual deficit ranged from £1.8billion to 5.4billion

It might be better this year as the price of oil has risen but then production is falling so the medium/long term situation is not promising.

56

morris,

edinburgh 27/08/2008 11:26:51
52
The Spook in Leith,
27/08/2008 09:03:41

WELL SAID!

The Liberal Party had a deal(unnoficially) for the early years with the SNP (although the SNP was very much still emerging from its infancy) where the SNP did not contest Liberal held seats on an unnoficial understanding that they would back any call for Home Rule.That quickly became an empty and broken assumption many moons ago.The Libs have now gone full circle and oppose that we even measure what the people think!
VOTE LIB DEM SOD THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND!
You are correct .Far from trusting them we should remove them from the equation.
They represent people who sit on the fence.
Their pretendy federal solution is a non starter,since it is a system presumably where Scotland would retain her taxes including oil revenues or its a complete sham.
Westmonster will NEVER agree to a system where Scotland keeps her taxes.
Thats why they want SCOTLAND!

People who sit on fences tend to get it right up them!
Their vote should soon reflect this starting at Glenrothes .

Bye Tavish!
57

morris,

edinburgh 27/08/2008 11:29:05
78
Ugly George,
Edinburgh 27/08/2008 11:07:12

You also have to take avergae earnings into account in Norway .They are considerably higher as I understand it,and Norway has one of the highest standards of living anywhere in the world.That can only be possible with high earnings!
58

,

27/08/2008 11:29:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
59

Darien,

Panama 27/08/2008 11:29:59
#74 & #78; Unionist/aka British Nationalist propoganda troops oot in force today! Sorry to upset you chaps, but bring it on, as the fat lady once sang.

By the way, Norway had over 90 competitors compared with Scotland's 19 at the olympics and enjoys sports facilities/infras which make Scotland look like what it is, less developed/mezzagiorno. I expect you would call that yer Union Dividend? (New Zealand had 180 competitors, almost 10 times as many as 'we canne dae it oorsels' Scotland forming a very very wee part of the Team GB!). Get the cringe?
60

Doh,

27/08/2008 11:30:03
#77 morris

I suggest you read the article with more care.

BTW there is nothing undemocratic about being oppossed to a referendum. If the SNP gain a majority of the seats they can have a referendum for all I care.

Why not have a referendum on something I support, like LIT? Why not? Are you saying the SNP are undemocratic?
Grow up.

It seems to me Tavish is listening to what was said during the leadership campaign and we will all see how he acts in the coming few years.
61

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 11:39:50
82 Darien
I notice that just beacause I question your analysis with some facts you categorise me as "British Nationalist Propagenda Troops"

What I don't notice is any meaningful response to the facts I pointed out.

I can only assume that, as you can't sustain a proper, cohesive argument or analysis you just resort to throwing tired cliched insults.
62

morris,

edinburgh 27/08/2008 11:41:37
83 Doh
Nicol Stephen made your party position absolutely clear when he said on a Radio Forth phone in:

" I know of no instance in history where any party has supported the use of a referendum,unless they knew in advance the outcome and agreed with it"
Im reasonably confident that my wording here is fairly accurate.You are maybe quite happy to hold a referendum and I salute you for that,but the LIB DEM party is not!

Mike Rumbles should have been the man,and they will rue the decision for a long long time.

This is only my opinion but its one I hear increasingly more and more. I will be very surprised if the LIberal vote does not collapse at Glenrothes .
I am biased I agree. I am also giving my honest opinion!



63

brownlie,

27/08/2008 11:45:19
Note the Saltires in the photograph. Could this be a subliminal message to the SNP?

81 Alan Reid

"I am proud to be Scottish" - Surely Chris Hoy is not the poster by that name on the Herald site? On second thoughts, it can't be, Chris Hoy's comments made sense.
64

Darien,

Panama 27/08/2008 11:50:57
#84 Why should I answer your point when you don't address mine? Anyway, as I've been to Norway a great deal over the last 10 years I know firsthand that that nation is an excellent role model for an independent Scotland and you know zip about Norway. All you have is googled stats - a trol AM2 strategy. Care to comment on my Union Dividend examples shown below (could add the spiralling cost of London Olympics, London Underground, London this, London that etc)?

"Tavish knows what an oil fund has done for Shetland. He if anyone should realise what it can do for Scotland. Does he really see benefits in Westmonster squandering all our resources on illegal wars, nuclear weapons, dodgy international deals, and fancy financial tricks in the City like Northern Crock?"
65

brownlie,

27/08/2008 12:00:41
70 Daniel

Are you really suggesting that Norway is a backward country, i.e. living in the past, by having a state-owned oil company which benefits it's economy instead of following the British example of selling it off cheaply??
66

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 12:03:53
87 Darien
You raised the issue of an oil fund and I replied, (not with as you stated googled stats but with evidence produced by a research body showing that that was not feasible) so I did address your point and you just responded with cliched labels. You did not address the point but merely sought to digress onto other areas ("Union Dividend etc. which I had not mentioned) and hurl more insults.

So this is your debating strategy - if you can't answer, hurl insults and then if you still can't answer change the topic. By the way I have been to Norway as well so you can't even be accurate in your insults.
67

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/08/2008 12:08:29
I just love the Saltires Tavish!

Does this mark a subliminal shift towards the SNP with whom you share many core policies?
68

sonofhamish,

edinburgh 27/08/2008 12:18:02
Yes it should happen, and when it fails as it will, then maybe we can get on with more important things and it will certainly wipe the grin of the mug that is Salmon.

People will say whatever in a poll on this issue but when it comes to putting an x in a box that could have an enormous impact on their wellbeing most people will stick with the status quo. Thats what happens in Quebec and its what will happen here.

Think of all the layoffs in the public sector, in defense, and the huge uncertainty that will hang over Scotlands finances for years especially if they are put under control of failed ex bank economist like Salmon. And we all know by now how good banks like RBS are at economics...
69

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/08/2008 12:18:06
#34 If the people of Abkhasia and South Ossetia desire it, then I think Salmond should back them.

I take it that you don't?
70

G,

dundy 27/08/2008 12:25:31
Whether or not Tavish would consider supporting a referendum is unimportant, whether the SNP will supply such a thing is....
WHY the delay?
71

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 12:29:47
94 Peter
Surely it's time to leave Chris Hoy alone. He went to the Olympics, did exceptionally well and now finds himself being dragged back and forwards in an essentially political debate. That is not fair on him.
72

malcolmcean,

27/08/2008 12:46:45
Georgeperson writes: "94 Peter
Surely it's time to leave Chris Hoy alone. He went to the Olympics, did exceptionally well and now finds himself being dragged back and forwards in an essentially political debate. That is not fair on him."



I think that Chris Hoy's comments are marvellous. Not because I agree with them (either the narrative of his comments in the Scotsman over the past two days; or his actual beliefs articulated above), but because they have made both the Daily Record and the Scotsman look totally ridiculous.

I can honestly say that I love to see tabloids having their faces rubbed firmly in the mud. The Scotsman and the Daily Record richly desrve this very public humilialtion.
73

European Scot,

27/08/2008 12:52:52
94 Peter Baleares

"So after being nailed to the Saltaire by the Scotsmans regular Natz`s ........."

Natz's ?

Not a question of spelling this time Peter, much more a matter of good taste.
74

malcolmcean,

27/08/2008 12:53:37
Incidentally, the Daily Record's historical revisionism of today is part and parcel of a realisation of a trend they have been made aware of in the past year.

Previously, when the Recod made a wildy partisan statement which had been ribbished, they would have totally ignored trying to correct it. But, quite recently, they have had focus grouops reveal to them that their readership is now majority made up of people increasingly unreceptive to their hardline editorial stance against the SNP and Scottish independence.

This has not stopped them from trying to manipulate the readership when they think they can, but it has forced them into positions they do not want to be in - today's volte face a good example.
75

brownlie,

27/08/2008 13:12:09
93 danielrober

I do not think nationalists can take lectures on a good education or being intellectual from some-one who posted the following:

"Due to instics, history and a good education i find nationalists limited in aspects and intelectual freedom"

I presume you mean
instics - instincts
i - I
intelectual - intellectual

You still have not answered my question as to whether Norway is back-ward or living in the past in having a state-owned oil industry.

Do you think the exorbitant profits made by the industry in this country is better off in the pockets of the few than benefitting the many?
76

brownlie,

27/08/2008 13:20:59
94 Peter

Have a look at the Hoy welcome under news!!!

Why do you suppose that is??
77

Darien,

Panama 27/08/2008 13:27:23
#93 said: "Due to insticts, history and a good education i find nationalists limited in aspects and intelectual freedom."

We are all nationalists if we believe in our nation. If you believe in the British nation, therefore you are a British Nationalist. You might call yourself a British Unionist, but that is exactly the same thing. As a British Nationalist (or Unionist), by implication you also believe that Scotland has a lesser place in the 'national' heirarchy. Scotland becomes no more than a region of the British State, as it is now, perhaps even with a puppet devolved government, as was the case until May 2007. My friend, if you "find nationalists limited in aspects and intelectual freedom" you are also referring to yourself, and to your fellow British Nationalists/Unionists, and to other people who believe in their nation everywhere.
78

brownlie,

27/08/2008 13:38:34
105 danielrober

As far as this site is concerned everything is black and white. The world is made more complex by irrelevant, irrational and tangential comments with little or no bearing on the subject in hand.

108 Peter

Sorry, I still cannot see your comment. Was it up to your usual high standard?



79

European Scot,

27/08/2008 13:40:04
103 Peter Baleares

" Good afternoon Sir, I take it you have not followed the story over the last few days then, a Scot on Scot blitz. Sad.

Natz ?? I did not make that one up sir, you must have seen it many times......OK, detention again it is.... "

Good afternoon to you too.
Yes I have been watching the events, and commenting on them.
Chris Hoy spoke sense, he didn't actually rubbish the idea of a Scottish Olympics team in the future, just that current facilities and funding weren't up to it, which is fair enough.
The problem is more about the way he was reported, and the spin put on it by newspapers like this one.
They have done him as much damage, as any extremist comments from the Nationalist side.
Yes I have seen that abbreviation before, but usually coming from 'educationally challenging' sources, you don't really merit being in the same 'class' !
Anyway, regarding detention, I think it's still a bit hot to inflict that on you.
Although there are signs of a cooling breeze at long last.
Perhaps I should keep that ruler handy !
It's lunch time, back later.
80

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/08/2008 13:43:06
"TRIPLE gold medal hero Chris Hoy last night said he'd be proud to be part of a Scottish Olympic team.

The Edinburgh cyclist rubbished reports that he thought the idea was "ridiculous".

Speaking exclusively to the Record, he told of his pride in his home country.

And he said he believes Scotland could form a world-class team - with the right investment in sports.

Chris was given a hero's welcome when he landed back in Britain on Monday after winning three golds in Beijing.

But the 32-year-old said: "I feel a bit upset that I have been quoted as saying the idea of a Scottish Olympic team is ridiculous.

"If and when a Scottish team was put together, I would be delighted to represent Scotland in the Olympic Games."

81

brownlie,

27/08/2008 14:02:21
112 danielrober

I'm sure readers of your posts are trying to figure out your logic and failing miserably.
82

Embra Don,

27/08/2008 14:08:10
38 Suomi,

Thank you for a thoughtful and intelligent contribution.

Compare and contrast with #35 from the Flat Earth Society
83

Alan B,

27/08/2008 14:10:53
#Doh

"His priority should be to promote LibDem policies and not just to slag the SNP. "

Problem is Tavish failed to do that during the leadership campaign. During leadership campaigns are when potential leaders get airtime to define what they are about.

Scott just seems to want to hide what he believes (blair style without the smarm). He seems to want to hedge his bets so that he is not committed to anything.

During the tv interviews i saw Rumbles was clear on what he stood for say in terms of sp tax responsibilities. Scott by comparison was woolly. It was almost not to rule anything out or anything in. Personally I want to hear what he really believes. What policies he thinks would address the issues.

He tended to focus on current economic issues but gave me no idea what his long term economic strategy would be. Clegg is moving the lib dems rightish in terms of tax advocating lower taxation, a reversal of the previous lib dem position. Where does Scott sit?

A party like the lib dems really need to give people a reason to vote for it. Rather than hoping it might get votes from people disenchanted with other parties.
84

Embra Don,

27/08/2008 14:18:12
95 G, dundy
Delay? You mean why are they sticking to the timetable promised by the manifesto?

The SNP knew that it would take a term of government to dispel generations of unionist lies that we are not fit to govern ourselves - that the sky would fall in on us if we tried.
Well - the sky does appear to be falling in on Labour, but otherwise it's still there for the rest of us.
Still saltire blue and looking good.
85

Alan B,

27/08/2008 14:20:01
#Doh

"there is nothing undemocratic about being opposed to a referendum"

I think many people would disagree.

Putting aside party differences and party politics, democracy is about the will of the people. Democracy is about testing public opinion and trying to ensure that the will of the people prevail.

We live in a liberal democracy. As i see that it is a balance between the rights of the individual and the will of the majority.

Part of the problem with parliamentary democracy is that it is not perfect and direct democracy like referendums can ensure the will of people is not overriden by political parties who think they know better than the people and implement policies that go against the will of the majority of the people. ie electral dictatorship. Too often justified by our politicians as we are told that is parliamentary democracy.

You talk about a referendum on LIT. I would support that type of thing and the direct democracy in the US, where referendum questions can be attached to elections.
86

Alan B,

27/08/2008 14:23:38
#danielrober

Daniel you say you are pro-eu. Do you support the euro for scotland? Do you support the euro only if england joins too? Would you support an independent economic assessment of the advantages and disadvantages of the euro to the scottish economy? Do you accept that sterling has been damaging to scotlands economic interests in the last 30 odd years becuase the higher interest rates necessary to control south east inflation suffocates scottish (and north of england) economic growth?
87

Alan B,

27/08/2008 14:32:42
#68 Ugly George

While I understand where you are coming from I do not see labour currently repositioning themselves to the left or the tories in scotland to the right.

Lets face it take out the constitutional question and there is not that much between any of the parties ideologically.

That may change if labour devolve themselves from london. And the tories in power at westmisnter start moving the uk towards a lower tax country from the high tax situation we have currently.

We would probably see bigger differences between the parties if tax was devoled as most of the differences are reflected in a parties tax policies.

With PR at the scottish parliament that leave room for more parties. It creates the situations where parties can rise from the ashes and fall like the ssp.

There is alot to play for in scottish politics as few parties are giving anyone a reason to vote for them.

Constitutionally the lib dems should be offering a clear alternative.
88

Publius,

London 27/08/2008 14:38:54
Back to the original story. If the SNP really wants a referendum in 2010, Holyrood will have to approve it soon.
To get Holyrood approval the SNP will need the support of at least one other party. It won't help them to get LibDem support when an anonymous spokesman of the First Minister rubbishes the new LibDem leader ("We had Wobbly Wendy, and now we have Twisting Tavish.") before a bill is even introduced into Parliament.
Leaving aside the point that personal abuse is not consistent with the SNP's policy of seeking a consensus, the insult may be calculated.
Perhaps the SNP's leadership does not want a referendum in 2010 because it thinks it would lose, so it wants the bill to fail at Holyrood. It can then blame the other parties. Insulting the LibDems' new leader is a good way to start.
89

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/08/2008 14:40:43
It's true, there is nothing undemocratic about being opposed to a referendum, so long as he doesn't let his personal views prevent the people of Scotland having a right to vote in one.
90

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/08/2008 14:43:26
#121 publius

Are you really saying that you regard the following as insults?

"We had Wobbly Wendy, and now we have Twisting Tavish."

Seems like mild teasing to me!
91

Doh,

27/08/2008 14:47:55
#115

As it happens I disagree with Tavish that the SNP will necessarily be less popular in 2010.
Looks to me like a two-term administration.

My point is that Tavish should not make frustrating the SNP his top priority - he cant influence that very much anyway. His priority, as leader of the libdums, is to promote LibDem policies - like LIT, or abolishing student tutition fees.

#117

If democracy is the will of the majority then
liberalism is how that majority treats the minority, or indeed the individual.

The SNP can call for a referendum any time they want, I suspect it would be the begining of the end of their honeymoon. Hence Alex delays until 2010 or maybe sometime never like the Welsh nationalists.
92

,

27/08/2008 14:55:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
93

Mirrorman ,

27/08/2008 15:10:57
#116 Hen Broon: you're a fine one to talk about abuse! Sayonara, sucker!
94

Alan B,

27/08/2008 15:18:32
#Doh

The lib dems have been the most consistent pro european party, and support the euro. Do you? Should the lib dems not be pushing scottish euro membership while we are still part of the uk (could see NI doing that). That could go hand in hand with devolving the "majority of the basket of taxes which could include oil" that Tavish said on tv.

"abolishing student tutition fees" is that not happening anyway.

The lib dems need more policies than LIT (is Clegg not dropping lit?)

95

Alan B,

27/08/2008 15:33:23
#Doh

"Hence Alex delays until 2010 or maybe sometime never like the Welsh nationalists"

I think they were waiting firstly to let people see the wheels would not fall off. And also to let the inevitiable implosion of labour. It is difficult to see labour as really leading scotland now as they are so bad. But scotland has tended to vote for them no matter what.

In many ways i think the want to build momentum. Having one of the few ever scottish pms was alway going to make things difficult. I think few would have predicted brown would be so unpopular so quickly.

If i was an snp strategist you would want brown out the picture after having lost a genral election. There would simply be no top labour scots left at westmister. No cook, reid or smith etc.

The tories running the uk from westminster will make things very difficult for labour tactically and could easily encourage support for independence as many still loath them in scotland. The tories are unlikely to have more that a handful of seats.

Who will labour attack the tories or the snp. It is one thing backing labour in westminster even when brown is doing silly things, but another backing the tories in westminster.

After another general election labour will be even more financially desperate.

A referendum now would be brown versus salmond. A referendum after brown has been defeated would be Salmond vs ?. (Grey, Milliband, Cameron).

Also what happens with Calman would have an effect. If Calman offers little what will happen? Will the lib dems be up in arms? It will be difficult for the lib dems to argue that the scottish parliament is far to weak (steel commission) but they are not going to be able to do anything about it.

If Calman offers alot? Salmond will welcome it as a step in the right direction and say that it shows that the sp was far too weak all along and he has somewhat been vindicated. Labour only considering it after losing.

If i were him i would be trying to get Calman
96

Alan B,

27/08/2008 15:33:44
cont..

If i were him i would be trying to get Calman implemented first before a referendum (particularly if it offers considerable tax devolution). A 3 way referendum will not work (ie transferable votes). And can you really offer people Calman without a referendum, at a referendum.

My feeling is the tories might try to cut a deal with him which they would be silly to reject. Substantially more powers for sp (ie fiscal autonomy) in return for postponing a referendum.

97

kimba,

27/08/2008 15:46:28
129. Why on gods green earth should the tories even consider "cutting a deal" with such a obnoxious individual such as salmond!
98

Darien,

27/08/2008 16:11:08
#130 Kimba "Why on gods green earth should the tories even consider "cutting a deal" with such a obnoxious individual such as salmond!"

That's not very Christian, is it? (I assume you are a Christian, as you believe the earth is God's). I'm sure Alex has forgiven the Tories for what they did over 17 years to Scotland (not sure if the rest of us Scots have though). It may take a bit more time to forgive those ever so rightous sons of the Manse Broon and Alexander though.

If you are a LibDem, which fence do you sit on?
99

kimba,

27/08/2008 16:21:49
131. Sorry you feel that way, you do know the next UK government will be tory,and Cameron has stated he will do"anything and everything"to keep the union together,and if "that means troops on the streets of scotland,so be it",chow!
100

,

27/08/2008 16:38:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
101

Doh,

27/08/2008 16:41:52
#128 Alan

I am in favour of the Euro but as for joining the Euro without England that would be big mistake wether we were independant or still a part of the UK. I doubt RBS and big biz would regard it with any enthusiasm.

I support federalism and fiscal autonomy and dont think the LibDems should compromise these policies to please Calman, Labour or the Tories. The tent just isnt big enough.

But I am only a member of the keyboard "clattering classes" I am not leader.
102

Publius,

London 27/08/2008 16:45:51
#123 connaughtboy

It might have been mild teasing if it wasn't an anonymous spokesman. As it is it makes it just that bit less likely that the Lib Dems will support an SNP bill for a referendum.
103

Publius,

London 27/08/2008 16:48:34
#132 Kimba

Did Cameron really threaten to put troops on the streets?
104

Alan B,

27/08/2008 16:55:43
#Doh

Firstly regarding the euro surely it is better to atleast have an independent economic assessment on it effect on the scottish economy.

That assessment may come out in favour of doing what england does. ie only joining if england does. Or it might not. But surely we should atleast be asking the question.

Why would RBS necessarily be against scotland joining the euro. Remeber the ex chairman was quite open to (or supported) scotland being independent. As such i am sure he would be well aware of the advantages/disadvantages of the euro as it would be the most likely course of action if scotland became independent.

Big business may actually favour the euro. In england the issue is driven by the political rather than the economic. Many companies might consider have a scottish base as access to the single market. You may find many english companies rellocate to scotland for that reason.

Remember browns economic performance has been masked by huge public spending and a consumer boom based on huge personal credit. It is not export and/or investment lead growth.

One of the things that apparently helped the irish economy (along with a lot of other things) was breaking the link the sterling and joining the euro.

105

Alan B,

27/08/2008 17:03:43
#137 danielrober

Sorry you have confused me abit. Would you support scotland joining the euro (inside or outside the uk). ie should scotland join while still being part of the uk (could see NI doing that).

We all know England for political reasons will not join (or will atleast resist it for a long while). But no matter whether scotland is in the uk or out we should be asking whether it is in scotland economic interests to join.

Some like Doh support the euro but only if england joins too. While i agree it would be better for scotland if the whole uk were to join, i still believe we should not wait for england.

"Which part of the energy sector has caught the eye of the SNP and Alec.S for nationalisation?"

No idea sorry.
106

Alan B,

27/08/2008 17:05:14
#138

sorry should have been

"One of the things that apparently helped the irish economy (along with a lot of other things) was breaking the link the sterling and joining the erm."
107

Peeablo,

UKSSR 27/08/2008 17:14:19
Lavish Tavish? Where do you stand?
108

The Master,

27/08/2008 17:24:01
#144 Hoots: may I offer you a quotation on our wee pal kimba:

Hamlet, I:5. I am but mad north-northwest: when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw.
109

Doh,

27/08/2008 17:24:28

Trading with a common currency makes sense.
We do most of our trade with England.
RBS really does a lot of trade in England.

Another former chairman of RBS was Lord Young, a Tory.
Maybe it was him that convinced Thatcher to sign the Mastricht Treaty.

I notice David Cameron has not said he would repeal the Lisbon Treaty.

The Tories just like playing to the gallery and are just hoping for buggins turn.

David Cameron is Tony Blair in a blue rosette.
Spin-tastic.
110

gus1940,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 17:30:25
Now bring on the 3 Stooges for their leadership election.
111

Masterpiece,

27/08/2008 17:55:19
It is very difficult to accept anything the Lib Dems say and all you need to do is look at their record when in coalition with the Labour Party.

I can't see how they would be able to change and still have credibility in such a short period of time on the Independence referendum. Not possible.
112

brownlie,

27/08/2008 18:24:13
Mirrorman

When was the last time you had a good look at yourself?
113

Mirrorman ,

27/08/2008 18:38:10
#155: it was when I poured some Gordon's in my eyes!
114

kimba,

27/08/2008 19:21:38
136. Cameron said he would do "Anything and Everything" to keep the union together,he also went on to say; "I don't want to be prime minister of England,i want to be prime minister of the UK all of it,including Scotland.what do you think!
115

,

27/08/2008 19:28:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
116

kimba,

27/08/2008 19:42:15
161. ouch! you're as sharp as a butter knife.
117

Traquir , Alba,

27/08/2008 20:08:42
Wow, Tavish Scott really is the new Wendy even she
was not as fast as doing U-Turns -

"Tavish Scott, the hard-line referendum opponent"
see - tinyurl.com/5epmdr

Today's Scotsman
"New Lib Dem leader will consider backing vote on independence"

Later Today - BBC
"Scott plays down referendum issue"
"Scotland's new Liberal Democrat leader has played down talk of his party supporting a multi-option referendum on independence."
see - tinyurl.com/6mrgrc

Well if nothing else the LibDems may end
up being good entertainment value, sorely
missed since Bendy Wendy resigned and
Jackie Baille went silent.
118

Traquir , Alba,

27/08/2008 20:17:56
I see the Kimba troll is having another one of her
bigoted outings on a Scottish Newspaper.

A little more background for those unaware of
the Kimba troll.

Kimba:"I am a member of the English Democrats,but unlike the snp we do not want to distroy the uk,just get fair play for the people of England."

Well that does explain a lot. Here is a little
education for most people who have never heard
of the uber-fringe group that is the
English Democrats :

. The English Democrats London Mayoral candidate
was Matt O’Connor.
. Matt O'Connor drops out of the race at
last minute as he
"accuses English Democrats of BNP link
after quitting race for Mayor"
"O’Connor says he had uncovered a ‘menacing
far-right underbelly’ to the party at the
11th hour. "
http://tinyurl.com/5w7ond
. There slogan is "Putting England First" -
hmm - not "Putting Britain First" ?
. There astounding level of grass level
support is demonstrated by
"They recently polled an astonishing
eight votes in a by-election - two
less than signed the nomination paper."
http://tinyurl.com/66cuxz

Also when she gets really annoyed I have been told
she looks something like this - tinyurl.com/yjyyqw

Beware, and do not approach to close.
119

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 27/08/2008 20:26:39
-- As such a small nation like Scotland simply can not function with its own currancy.

Yet Norway, Iceland, New Zealand function fine?
120

Alan B,

27/08/2008 20:41:24
#danielrober

Not sure how you think I am picking a fight. Was just interested what you think of Scotland joining the euro.

To some extent the whole question of independence is about having the powers to make choices. The currency we use and it effect on the economy is one of these major choices.

If it was becuase I was directing my point to yourself it was only because you are more likely to give a thoughtful reply.

121

,

27/08/2008 21:21:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
122

Yeah1,

27/08/2008 23:52:28
#169

"The posters like 'Traquir , Alba' have one issue and one point of view, I'm right your wrong."

Quite right, Traquir is revealing himself as more of a liability and embarassment to the nationalist cause with every post.

An example - he is quite happy to accept quotes from a newspaper when those quotes are in tune with own his beliefs, but when those quotes are opposed to what he believes he dismisses them and states that they are a 'mistake'.

He was perfectly happy to accept Chris Hoy's quotes in the Daily Record in an article today, but he refused to believe Chris Hoy's quotes in the same newspaper yesterday.

You cannot pick and choose quotes from the same source which you want to believe based on whether they are along the lines of what you personally believe - that sort of behaviour completely destroys any credibility your argument may have.

There are plenty of intelligent unblinkered nationalists on these boards, unfortunately Traquir is not one of them.
123

John PM,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 23:55:17
He's done a Wendy on this already and now says he doesn't want one because he might lose it. No doubt he got a call from London! So much for considering.

The Lib Dems in the past supported the Claim of Right and were held in some affection. Since their change to unionism at all costs and their opposition to giving the Scots a choice they have went in to freefall in the opinion polls. What a shame, not.
124

Darien,

Panama 28/08/2008 00:27:04
#177 is correct. There is a direct correlation with the FibDum decline and their Unionist/British Nationalist fundamentalism demonstrated last year after the SNP won power at Holyrood. FibDum problem is that they have to be seen to be BritNat and anti-Scottish Independence because of the high ratio of English nationals living in their borders and Northern Isles constituencies. Pity that.

 

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