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Glenrothes by-election: Activists flood in as SNP and Labour bid to sway undecided

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Published Date: 03 November 2008
LABOUR and the SNP are preparing to bring activists into Glenrothes from across the country over the next three days in a last-ditch attempt to sway the knife-edge by-election in their favour.
The Nationalists put 1,200 activists into the constituency over the weekend to campaign on behalf of Peter Grant, the SNP candidate.

Party managers had hoped for 1,000 volunteers, but the extra helpers meant they could leaflet the entire constituency in a single four-hour push over the weekend.

Alex Salmond then increased the pressure on Labour by insisting the SNP would win Thursday's contest.

He said: "I don't anticipate we shall win by a landslide. But you ask me the question, 'Do I think we will win?' The answer is ,'Yes, I do'."

The First Minister argued that the Nationalists had better organisation on the ground.

Labour hit back, however, with John Park, the party's campaign coordinator, warning Mr Salmond that voters would not be taken in by his pre-election "bluster".

Mr Park said: "People don't like being told by politicians how they're going to vote in advance. It's typical of the First Minister that he takes people's votes for granted and he obviously thinks this is in the bag. It isn't, and the people of Fife are not going to be fooled by bluster."

Labour is also expected to bring in MPs, MSPs and councillors from around the country for the last few days, while Sarah Brown, the Prime Minister's wife, visited yesterday.

A Labour spokesman said: "She's just quietly been talking to people on the doors and getting on with it."

Labour has also started to target the record of the SNP-led Fife Council, focusing on charges for pensioners and fears over the introduction of a local income tax.

Lindsay Roy, Labour's candidate, said: "Local people are worried about what local income tax will mean for them. With so many people opposed to their plans, the SNP should have the humility to scrap them.

"At this difficult economic time, the last thing anyone needs is a new tax."

Meanwhile, the Nationalists are going into the final few days of the campaign concentrating on post office closures.

There have been unconfirmed reports that the UK government is about to award the contract for the Post Office card account to PayPoint, a decision which could deprive post offices of 20 per cent of their business and drive many to closure.

The SNP claims five post offices have already closed in the Glenrothes constituency and has accused the UK Labour government of delaying the decision on the Post Office card account until after the Glenrothes poll.

Mr Grant said yesterday: "People in Glenrothes can show their determination to keep the Post Office open with a vote for the SNP in this by-election."

The contest in Glenrothes was triggered by the death of Labour MP John MacDougall, who had a majority of 10,664 at the last election.

Bookmakers William Hill has Labour and the SNP as joint favourites to win, on 5/6.


Cleverest children 'grow up to be Green'

THE brightest children go on to vote Liberal Democrat or Green, according to a survey.

The study by Edinburgh University researchers has found that childhood intelligence is linked to voting preferences and political involvement in adulthood.

The study – which looked at voting patterns in the 2001 general election – found that those with higher IQ ratings were more likely to vote Lib-Dem or Green in an election.

The survey – including cognitive tests at ages five and ten – was followed up with a study of voting habits at 34. Those who voted Green had an average IQ of 108.3, with Lib-Dem voters just behind at 108.2.

Conservative and Labour voters were further behind – with scores of 103.7 and 103.0 respectively, while voters for Welsh nationalist Plaid Cymru scored an average of 102.5. Scottish National Party voters had an average IQ of 102.2. The research also showed that British National Party voters had the lowest average intelligence – scoring just 98.4. Non-voters were found to have an average IQ of 99.7.

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1

Rufus T. Fireball,

Grampian 03/11/2008 00:05:21
Glenrothes : Internal Minutes Show Scottish Labour in Disarray

Highlights from the leaked document include:

Cllr Iain Chrichton “The Gordon Brown photo with Thatcher was a big mistake.”

Cllr Alex Rowley - election agent to Gordon Brown “The party in Fife is not geared up for modern campaigning.”

Oh dear - link here

http://www.order-order.com/2008/11/glenrothes-internal-minutes-show.html
2

Rufus T. Firefly,

03/11/2008 00:07:28
Spot the odd one out:

• Sunday Herald: “Support for independence in decline”

• Press Association: “Financial crisis dents independence”

• Politics.co.uk: “Scottish independence support shows fall”

• SNP press release: “SNP welcome independence poll figures”
3

Rufus T. Firefly,

03/11/2008 00:09:39
Salmond must be spitting blood that Lewis Hamilton is not Scottish.

Imagine the photo opportunities missed.

It would have made a better photo than being pictured standing next to a giant pie.

4

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03/11/2008 00:09:46
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5

Castaway™ ,

03/11/2008 00:10:55
Latest opinion poll (Oct) from TNS System Three.
TNS Polls: Using the same format as the SNP is proposing to put in a referendum which is to ask the Scots whether they agree or disagree that the administration should "negotiate a settlement with the government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state".
Oct 2008:agree 35%:not agree 43%:DK 22%
Jun 2008:agree 39%:not agree 41%:DK 21%
Mar 2008:agree 41%:not agree 40%:DK 19%
Nov 2007:agree 40%:not agree 44%:DK 16%
Aug 2007:agree 35%:not agree 50%:DK 15%
Avg-agree 38%:not agree 43.5%:DK 18.5%
DK=Don't know, who have shown a steady increase.
6

subrosa,

03/11/2008 00:13:46
Another labour press release. Another photo of the labour candidate.

What a sad state of affairs that our so called media cannot be fair and unbiased in their political articles.
7

Conan the Librarian™,

03/11/2008 00:14:21
2
You are the odd one.

Out.
8

Rufus T. Fireball,

Grampian 03/11/2008 00:15:51
THE Labour Government has been accused of deliberately delaying announcing a decision that will lead to the closure of 700 of Scotland's 1,120 Post Offices to avoid bad publicity in the run-up to the Glenrothes by-election.


No they wouldnt do that would they?
9

Rufus T. Firefly,

03/11/2008 00:21:01
Hey Rufus, Did you see Lewis Hamilton last night?

What a performance.

Makes you proud to be British.
10

Conan the Librarian™,

03/11/2008 00:22:42
9
Thought you were Freedonian.
11

Steve,

Bo'ness 03/11/2008 00:25:07
"A study" shows that SNP voters are thick!?

Good grief. This paper is absolutely pathetic.
12

Castaway™ ,

03/11/2008 00:26:25
House of Commons debates - Scottish Labour constituency MPs.
Our Scottish Labour MPs are looking out for Scotland.Yeh! Yeh!
13 December 2005...... is so annoyed that ...... party colleagues at Holyrood could reject planning applications for new nuclear power stations that ....... wants the Scotland Act re-opened so that the relevant powers can be taken away from the Scottish Parliament.
2 May 2007.Attacked the SNP in Westminster yesterday, asking Tony Blair: "Do you share my concern that it [cannabis] can lead to mental health problems? Does he [Mr Blair] know how to grow dope - plant a Scottish nationalist?"
23 May 2007 Did not proportional representation give Germany Adolf Hitler? To a lesser degree, we have been given the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond). Can that be a good example?
21 Jun 2007-To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what assessment he has made of the likelihood of securing a majority in the International Whaling Commission for a complete ban on commercial whaling; (2) what measures to protect whales were agreed at the recent International Whaling Commission meeting.
3 Apr 2008- He’s a horror-tell him to bog off!
I am sure a SNP MP would be different putting Scotlands interests first.
13

Rufus T. Firefly,

03/11/2008 00:33:59
Support for independence in decline

SUPPORT FOR independence has slumped in the wake of the global financial crisis, with barely one-third of voters now backing the SNP's key policy, according to a new opinion poll.

With the UK tipping into recession, and on the eve of a crucial by-election, support for withdrawal from the union has fallen by four percentage points in just three months.

An SNP spokesman said: "This is a very encouraging poll, which confirms that support for independence and equality for Scotland is extremely strong.

You can always rely on an SNP spokesman for a little bit misrepresentation!!!!!!

14

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03/11/2008 00:35:31
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Castaway™ ,

03/11/2008 00:36:16
#1-This is the full article -The Sunday Post-2 Nov 2008
Activists expose Labour disarray
http://www.sundaypost.com/news2.htm

Cllr Iain Chrichton “The Gordon Brown photo with Thatcher was a big mistake.” Here is my favourite photo,now smile:::http://tinyurl.com/5lxd78


16

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 03/11/2008 00:40:55
I notice that on the ITV news tonight Gordon Brown didn't miss the photo opportunity presented by the Lewis Hamilton news, (to whom very well done), pictured as he was at number 10 beside a union flag whilst giving his verdict.

Of course it's all right when your Prime Minister!
17

Fifi la Bonbon,

03/11/2008 00:45:23
The only poll that counts is the poll on the day.

However, there is growing evidence that the Labour Party in Scotland has recognised in the light of the Glasgow East by-election and indeed the Glenrothes one that it needs to shape up and overcome its complacency. And at the rate of improvement being shown, the prospects are looking good.
18

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03/11/2008 01:05:09
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jimboo,

glenrothes constituency 03/11/2008 01:05:55
Out delivering leaflets for the SSP today in Methil, people so scunnered they are throwing them back out the door, met some nice SNP people and told them they might lose as they chose the wrong candidate, met some nice labour people and told them they might lose as they chose the wrong candidate, both front runners core vote holding up well,too close to call.
20

Wisnaeme,

03/11/2008 01:08:16


Hmmm, it's not just announcements on Post office closures that New Labour are being less than transparent on.

What about them much heralded and much delayed aircr..

Oops, can't mention that.

Dear New Labour, I wonder if you would care to comment on the delay concerning announcements on new defence contracts and jobs concerning floating platforms for flying thingawayjigs for the use of.

That's better. Just asking by the way.
.
21

jimboo,

glenrothes constituency 03/11/2008 01:10:24
#19 throwing all partys leaflets out the door not just ours, if you include the post office delivery Ive had over 30, the dogs a nervous wreck as he thinks the postmans working a 12 hour shift in our street, great lumps out the door, distracts him from the fireworks though.
22

Willie Macleod,

Wick 03/11/2008 01:19:01
New Labour was a party and is a party within party that is no different from Millitent Tenendcy in the the Eighties. It has fund raised and organised itself as a separate party against its grassroot members in the Constituencies.
23

Fifi la Bonbon,

03/11/2008 01:23:16
Very profound, Willie. You probably put a lot of thought into that and I for one hope to hear more from you.
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03/11/2008 01:23:33
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Matt there,

Somewhere 03/11/2008 01:25:49
What's that, Mr John Park?

Sarah Brown was walking the streets and no Labour Party Spokesperson (sic) threatened to have anyone shot?

It was a joke, you are saying? Whilst at the very same time the Met are being questioned as to why they blasted the life out of an innocent Brazilian? Great taste in jokes you and your colleagues have, Mr Park...
26

jimboo,

03/11/2008 01:28:01
#24 the moment the Labour campaign manager banjoed Chick Young the battle was lost.
27

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/11/2008 01:40:41
#2 Rufus

That is a cut and paste from AM2's site.

Are you him or are you just parroting him?
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03/11/2008 01:44:40
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Brian Hill,

03/11/2008 01:48:47
# 29. I see the SNP's Traquir is being impersonated again. Just another example of Unionist's dirty tricks team at work
30

,

03/11/2008 01:50:26
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/11/2008 01:52:06
#31 In your self-delusional dreams !
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03/11/2008 01:52:42
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,

03/11/2008 01:55:18
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Willie Macleod,

Wick 03/11/2008 01:55:29
#23 Good Morning Fifi AS a Labour activist and party member since 1981 and held positions Wick Chair vice chair Consituency vice chair membership Caithness Sutherland and Easter Ross CLP
35

,

03/11/2008 01:56:56
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/11/2008 01:57:21
#35 As I said, in your dreams !
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03/11/2008 01:59:44
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03/11/2008 02:01:35
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03/11/2008 02:03:42
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/11/2008 02:25:23
#35 Please read the following, printed in today's Herald. It appears that you have failed in your quest to have comments removed from the site.

"UPDATED COMMENTS POLICY
We recognise that users may wish to discuss and debate the content we publish. We aim to provide this service in a safe and inclusive manner that encourages intelligent, considered contributions and lively interaction.

From today the following changes to our comments service will apply:

1. The user comments facility will open at 07:30 and close at 24:00 each day.
2. Comment threads will be closed at 24:00 each day, or at our discretion

We remind all users that by registering with this site you have agreed to our Terms and Conditions.

We encourage you to familiarise yourself with your responsibilities as members of this on-line community."
41

,

03/11/2008 02:26:48
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/11/2008 02:30:42
Further to #43, I have asked the Herald editor for reasons for the change in policy.
43

Fifi la Bonbon,

03/11/2008 02:31:25
Willie, I wasn't trying to be unpleasant.
44

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03/11/2008 02:33:26
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/11/2008 02:34:34
Back to the article:

"Party managers had hoped for 1,000 volunteers, but the extra helpers meant they could leaflet the entire constituency in a single four-hour push over the weekend."

Now that's impressive. Labour must be wetting themselves.
46

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/11/2008 02:38:45
#47 I have no problem with the new comments policy either. It tends to be abusive Unionists like yourself who post throughout the night anyway, so it's your loss.

The fact that you failed in your quest is enough for me.
47

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03/11/2008 02:38:55
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/11/2008 02:42:27
I see that the bookie odds are moving in favour of the SNP again. I predict a majority of 2,000 in Glenrothes. The Labour campaign has been so full of negativity, they deserve everything coming to them !
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03/11/2008 02:45:53
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03/11/2008 02:47:50
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Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 02:51:44
Alex Salmond is embarassing himself yet again by declaring a victory before the vote.

The SNP mindset knows no shame, remember what a banana Mason looked jumped around like a caged animal. The British wouldn't behave like that, it's dignified politics not the x-factor.
52

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/11/2008 02:53:48
"There have been unconfirmed reports that the UK government is about to award the contract for the Post Office card account to PayPoint, a decision which could deprive post offices of 20 per cent of their business and drive many to closure."

This is a scandal! Labour will be punished by the voters of Glenrothes for the way they have acted. This will hit the elderly particularly hard.
53

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/11/2008 02:57:14
I have to say that the post office closures is an own goal for Labour and a great hot issue to use against them in the final few days of the campaign.

They seem to have a self destruct button which they can't help pressing.

But, hey, I ain't complaining !
54

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03/11/2008 02:57:58
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03/11/2008 03:02:32
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/11/2008 03:02:49
"Alex Salmond then increased the pressure on Labour by insisting the SNP would win Thursday's contest."

And it seems to have been successful, just as it was in Glasgow East. Salmond is a master tactician!
57

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/11/2008 03:06:36
I predict some defections from Labour to the SNP over the coming months based on the following:


"Activists expose Labour disarray

By Campbell Gunn

SECRET minutes of a Fife Labour Party “away day” show the party in disarray as they planned the Glenrothes by-election.

The minutes, obtained by The Sunday Post, show Labour activists admitted the party in Fife wasn’t geared up for modern campaigning.

The admission is revealed in the minutes of an away day for Fife activists in August, in the wake of the Glasgow East by-election, which Labour lost to the SNP.

The revelations are a major blow to the party on the eve of Thursday’s Glenrothes poll where they defend a 10,600 majority.

Expect defeat

Senior party insiders admit they now expect to lose the seat, which is adjacent to the Prime Minister’s Kirkcaldy constituency.

In the hand-written minutes, Gordon Brown’s election agent Alex Rowley admitted, “The party in Fife is not geared for modern campaigning.

“Across Fife there is a 5.5 per cent swing to the SNP, who work hard to identify their support and get them out. They hold masses of data on SNP support.

“Their organisation compared to Dunfermline and West Fife Labour Party is much better.

People had voted SNP but we had them as Labour voters. The SNP info was more reliable.”

Labour activist Judy Hamilton claimed the party had lost touch. She said there was no attraction for young people and the party’s ethos was that of the south of England.”

Leadership lacking

Another activist, Tom Adams, said the party had no management structure. “Leadership in Scotland is lacking in the party,” he claimed.

Labour Councillor Ian Crichton admitted the SNP had momentum. He said, “We’re getting rid of incapacity benefit — why? The Gordon Brown photo with Thatcher was a big mistake. Gordon Brown should stay more Gordon Brown than presidential.”
58

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03/11/2008 03:06:50
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/11/2008 03:09:20
#61 Traquir, I refer you to my post #43.

The vermin has failed in his mission to have all comments removed from the Herald.
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03/11/2008 03:09:44
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/11/2008 03:14:00
#63 The Labour canvassers are in the doldrums as they see this seat slipping away from them. They are just not geared up for this type of campaign, organisationally or intellectually.
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03/11/2008 03:20:05
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madabbot,

far away 03/11/2008 03:20:17
Still no one to explain why it costs those elderly in care with 18,000 pounds or more ; 700 quid a week to stay in a sub standard care home run by Fife council;

When the same Fife Council will only pay 420 quid to one operated by the nasty private companies in Fife.

They also want to spend 40,000,000 to bring Fife council homes up to standard
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03/11/2008 03:21:12
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03/11/2008 03:25:03
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03/11/2008 03:25:24
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03/11/2008 03:31:19
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03/11/2008 03:31:53
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03/11/2008 03:40:29
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Thomas1,

// 03/11/2008 03:41:13
Five tips to get a flat stomach-
don't vote for labour.
And if your IQ is below 100 then you should seriously think about voting for the BNP.
71

TommyKaye,

UK 03/11/2008 04:16:42
Brown warned on Iceland six months ago

Gordon Brown was warned that Iceland's banks had serious problems in April - six months before they crashed, it was claimed last night.

Oh dear Gordon why didnt you tell all those who had money saved with Icleandic banks - will there be an enquiry about this I wonder?
72

TommyKaye,

UK 03/11/2008 04:20:42
Gordon Brown flies to Scotland - lecture the Glenrothes electorate that Oil is not a resource to run an economy on so dont listen to the SNP.

Gordon gets on a plane flies to the OIL RICH GULF STATES AND BEGS FOR MONEY -

Charlatan and hypocryte typical Labour liar

Tough on crime tough on the causes of crime

Education Education Education

IRAQ IRAQ IRAQ

Gordon Brown was at the HEART OF ALL LABOUR DECISIONS

Now the UK plc is bankrupt and he is smiling and joking as he flies around OIL RICH GULF STATES BEGGING FOR A BAILOUT

73

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03/11/2008 04:27:20
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03/11/2008 04:32:43
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03/11/2008 04:35:45
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glassbenmhor,

03/11/2008 06:17:59
Tell me Hamish MacDonell,

What way do you think the former MP's family will be voting,

after John was told by his old pal Des Browne to "*uck off" when he asked for rightful compensation for another of the MOD's asbestos atrocities?????
77

tommy M,

Scotland 03/11/2008 06:20:22
Great photo - now even the bairns are running away from labour as fast as their wee legs will carry them!
78

glassbenmhor,

03/11/2008 06:22:56
And Hamish,while we are on the subject,Where is the accounts for that old time Liebour scumbag David Marshal and the half million in Taxpayers cash,maybe you could get of your red rosetted *rse and do what your payed for in investigative journilism on behalf of the Scottish electorate?????
79

glassbenmhor,

03/11/2008 06:32:35
The BNP, Christ,

give me a break, their only function in life is exercise for young 'Bobbies'

as they beat the living *uck out of them in the back of a Police Transit Van,
quite right too!!!

Every sane person wants there demise asap., well they had better think sharp about immigrating and they can take their -' MI5 pay-rolled union jack wearing half Irish skinheads' with them. Independence will be more than just between a rock and a hard place.
80

glassbenmhor,

03/11/2008 06:44:11
Traquir, you eloquent *astard,

congratulations for your informative posts,

I hear you over your points on miners health and pensions, it is gut-wrenching to hear these unionist squirrels with their tongues sharped upon Labours backside chattering their Unionist drivel on these forms while we hear of the genuine misery of ordinary folks.
It is truly disgusting to think Labour are supposed to be Socialist, but slinking along instead, the Wolf in Sheep's clothing issuing forth Crocodile tears at every turn!
81

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03/11/2008 06:49:41
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glassbenmhor,

03/11/2008 06:52:00
AIRCRAFT CARRIERS!!!!!
AIRCRAFT CARRIERS, I hear you say,

Bye Christ if so much as a single Fifer gets to make a single weld--------

I"LL EAT MY HAT!!

That my friends will be for a French or Italian yard to which the major shareholder will be Cherie Blair or one of her pall's,

with any luck that announcement or should I say 'Leak' to the press will not be planned until after Gordon Brown losses his deposit in 09'.
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03/11/2008 06:57:39
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03/11/2008 07:09:56
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Dave Gordon.,

http://www.oddpolitics.com 03/11/2008 07:12:57
Odds on Labour are slipping again, at least with one bookie, which has them on 6/4, and the nationalists on 8/15
86

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 07:44:58
A coy of the article in the Sunday Post for all you poor wee Unionists. Read em and weep


SECRET minutes of a Fife Labour Party “away day” show the party in disarray as they planned the Glenrothes by-election.

The minutes, obtained by The Sunday Post, show Labour activists admitted the party in Fife wasn’t geared up for modern campaigning.

The admission is revealed in the minutes of an away day for Fife activists in August, in the wake of the Glasgow East by-election, which Labour lost to the SNP.

The revelations are a major blow to the party on the eve of Thursday’s Glenrothes poll where they defend a 10,600 majority.

Expect defeat

Senior party insiders admit they now expect to lose the seat, which is adjacent to the Prime Minister’s Kirkcaldy constituency.

In the hand-written minutes, Gordon Brown’s election agent Alex Rowley admitted, “The party in Fife is not geared for modern campaigning.

“Across Fife there is a 5.5 per cent swing to the SNP, who work hard to identify their support and get them out. They hold masses of data on SNP support.

“Their organisation compared to Dunfermline and West Fife Labour Party is much better.

People had voted SNP but we had them as Labour voters. The SNP info was more reliable.”

Labour activist Judy Hamilton claimed the party had lost touch. She said there was no attraction for young people and the party’s ethos was that of the south of England.”

Leadership lacking

Another activist, Tom Adams, said the party had no management structure. “Leadership in Scotland is lacking in the party,” he claimed.

Labour Councillor Ian Crichton admitted the SNP had momentum. He said, “We’re getting rid of incapacity benefit — why? The Gordon Brown photo with Thatcher was a big mistake. Gordon Brown should stay more Gordon Brown than presidential.”

A spokesman for the Labour Party denied the minutes have any bearing on the campaign.

“It does not relate to the by-election,” he said. “That was the
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03/11/2008 07:47:25
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03/11/2008 07:51:14
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A Better Way,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 07:57:57
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha, and all that from supposed low IQ Nats.

The London owned New Labour Party is that concerned they intend to drag MP's ,MSP's and Councillors from all parts of the UK because they dont have any supporters who would volunteer.

The SNP have had 4,200 Scottish Patriots out there looking after the Scottish People, who get told Lies, Lies, Lies, and more damned Lies from Londons New Labour Party.

Send more honest Scots Patriots to Westminster to represent the Folk of Glenrothes Vote SNP because you know we fight for the Scottish Nation, not a few London New Labour MP's who retire multi millionaires at the Scottish Nations expense.

Our Scottish Patriots go to London as MP's, but judge their success as being when they dont have to go there ever again. Scotland is no longer a stepping stone to London. Our MP's will be Scots who serve in a fully Independant Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh.
90

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 08:06:38
"The contest in Glenrothes was triggered by the death of Labour MP John MacDougall, who had a majority of 10,664 at the last election."

AND WE KNOW WHAT LONDON NEW LABOUR TOLD POOR MRS MACDOUGALL, ON HER REQUEST FOR COMPENSATION, BECAUSE HER MAN WAS KILLED BY ASBESTOS WORKING IN ROSYTH ON THE NAVY SHIPS.

AND BROWN HAD THE NERVE TO PUT HIS ARM AROUND HIS FRIENDS WIDOW. THE MAN WOULD SELL HIS HERITAGE TO STAY PRIME MINISTER. HE IS THE SHAME OF SCOTLAND.
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03/11/2008 08:07:01
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A Better Way,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 08:21:30
It looks like New Labours mouthpiece, the BBC has decided to remove any stories involving the SNP.

They have one about Murphy the traitor going to Iceland to ask for the 46 million pounds the Councils have lost in the Banking Fiasco

They have the older story of Brown declaring he will fight for every vote even though he is withdrawing INCAPACITY BENEFITS for Scots. He certainly hates Scotland for daring to demand their fair share.

The People of Scotland should tip their hats to any London New Labour Politician or else he will sell our Bank of Scotland to an English Bank, even though authorities have told them it would lessen competition between banks. That means you will get screwed by the Banks even more. For Christ sake Vote SNP so we can get rid of the London Government.
93

,

03/11/2008 08:23:08
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94

Finnzz,

03/11/2008 08:26:41
Looks like the Hootsman is already practising its own form of censorship.

Several Scottish Local Authorities have lost money following the advice of a UK government approved financial advisor, Sector Treasury Services Ltd who advised, IN SEPTEMBER, that investments into Icelandic Bank Landsbanki, was a good bet.

You couldn't make it up..
95

Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 08:31:43
Glenrothes people tend to be clients of the state. The SNP recognise this and are promising them free money that they have stolen off of decent, well-educated middle-class people. That will win them many votes.

Because over two thirds of Fifers are either unemployed or working for the cooncil it makes them easy targets for the SNP.

Problem with the SNP is that they will decimate Scotland's middle-classes and turn our country into a 3rd world has been like Ireland.
96

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 03/11/2008 08:33:55
annouced this morning, no more bank of scotland, if the merger(takeover) goes ahead the organisation will be called , lyods banking group, brown, murphy, gray and friends you are a disgrace to your country. when independence comes you lot will never stay down south as you will never live this down, shame on you and labour party.
97

Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 08:36:21
Why are the SNP voters moaning about the carriers being manufactured abroad?

I agree it's a disgrace, but the SNP want to be neutral in all wars and don't believe in countries having big militaries? Why don't they just admit that, instead of pretending? Ahhh, they like to lie for political gain like Labour. Gotcha.
98

Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 08:39:03
Isn't Halifax (BOS) slap bang in the middle of England? Hardly Scottish at all, the institution has been British since the last merger, BOS was already dead.
99

Michael,

03/11/2008 08:46:53
Here's a link to a scan of the hilarious Labour Away Day minutes. You can read all the drivel, the havering for yourself. My favourite comment on the web site is the one about the minutes looking the written version of speaking in tongues.

http://www.order-order.com/2008/11/glenrothes-internal-minutes-show.html
100

,

03/11/2008 08:51:12
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,

03/11/2008 08:53:42
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,

03/11/2008 08:55:49
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103

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 03/11/2008 09:04:36
Cleverest children 'grow up to be Green'...

Just shows they might be clever in an intelligence sense but thick as mince in common sense terms. All that "science" must go to their heads.

In the week that Gordo begs from Arabs and shakes hands with reformed terrorists we can dispel any notions of high IQ or common sense there too and hope for a good thrashing at Glenrothes.
104

,

03/11/2008 09:36:52
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105

Finnzz,

03/11/2008 09:41:33
#104

Yup, the source is Private Eye #1221. The article says

"In its September credit-ratings bulletin, Sector reclassified Landsbanki under 'negative outlook' for long-term deposits, but advised that the bank was a good bet for 'short-term maturities'"

106

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03/11/2008 09:41:37
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107

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/11/2008 09:42:01
107 Angry#

Brown is a terrorist; a financial one who has managed to ruin an economy and decomate Scottish banks single handed.

Now on the creep talking up the importance of oil and begging for Saudis to invest in the UK. Wonder if he will be taking a hard line on ther human rights record?
108

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/11/2008 09:43:35
110 Kimba#

You mean the Cumbrian's have not yet invented the round wheel?
109

Doh,

03/11/2008 09:46:16


No more boom and bust.
110

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03/11/2008 09:47:58
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111

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/11/2008 09:48:38
Labour are in severe trouble in Scotland and really if they cannot win this by-election after the PM personally campaigning and sending up the wife (bet she just loves it there compared to covent garden) then it looks very very bad for them.

They had their excuses in Glasgow East but this is a different scenario and if Brown can't win in his own back yard and coming on the back of a 'positive' press for him they are finished here and 'dawn saff'.

112

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/11/2008 09:52:09
I still think Mr Roy would make a fantastic Fagan in Oilver.
113

Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 09:56:29
115 Nevsky

An SNP voter referring to a back yard? That is American, back garden if you please, sir.

All these so called "Scots" in the SNP rushing around high fiving each other and calling each other dude, guys and dolls. Enough to make one puke.

Garden, chaps, lads, ladies, lasses. It's no wonder these barbarians want to abuse and destroy Britain, they think they are American.
114

Miss H,

03/11/2008 10:02:16
117 Some of us are American. So what? The SNP is for everyone in Scotland. Don't be so parochial.
115

Edward,

03/11/2008 10:02:19
I wonder how the ex Miners feel as regards Gordon Brown
After all it was Maggie Thatcher that heaped praise on Gordon. It was Gordon Brown that Thatcher was very good and so much so invited her round for tea and photo shoot at Number 10 (not many ex Miners get that opportunity!). Rumour has it, that that is to be repeated.
So the burning question is this. Is Gordon Brown still a true socialist? or has he converted Maggie Thatcher?
Or is the reality is that Gordon is no more a socialist that Norman Tebbit!
Never mind though fully expect the ex Miners to carry on voting Labour, after all they allways have
116

,

03/11/2008 10:02:22
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117

Farky,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 10:07:08
Rufus T. Firefly,

I THINK YOU ARE AN IDIOT!
If you honestly think all your exeptionally rude remarks about our FM are productive for the party you support, you are probably mistaken.
118

The Tin Man,

03/11/2008 10:10:26
I can see that all the SNP sycophants are running scared, now.

The SNP are going down the tubes - Obama WILL win the bye-election.
119

brownlie,

03/11/2008 10:10:45
116 nevsky

With Gordon as Bill Sykes and Mandelson as the Artful Dodger.
120

Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 10:12:27
118 Miss H

The SNP is not for everyone in Scotland. They dislike the Brits and actively make attempts to ethnically clean this ethnicity from Scottish culture.

For example, airbrushing out Union Flags from photographs of important civic buildings. Can you imagine if they airbrushed out a turban or Islam from Scottish Executive websites for not being Scottish enough? There would be outrage.

So really, you musn't say the SNP are for everyone in Scotland, they are not for the British who make up the vast majority of the indigenous population.
121

brownlie,

03/11/2008 10:12:28
122 The Tin Man

An improvement on your usual postings but still incomprehensible.
122

The Tin Man,

03/11/2008 10:17:13
#126 Brownlie

If he can win the Grand Prix, I am sure he can win at Glenrothes.
123

Calum10,

03/11/2008 10:17:18
The news is that there will swinging cuts in jobs at HBOS in Scotland. Both Lloyds and HBOS have agreed to over £1.5 billion cuts.

Unions bosses in Scotland now fear that thousands of jobs will go in Edinburgh across branches in Scotland.

Where is the Scotsman on this? Aren't they supposed to fighting to safeguard the Bank of Scotland and jobs in Edinburgh with a high profile campaign.

It looks like the Scotsman have been bought or frightened off. Not a whimper about this annoucement on massive job cuts now facing many of its readers.

The Scotsman has betrayed the Scottish banking sector.
124

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/11/2008 10:17:25
125 Viva#

Airbrushing the 'butchers apron' is not quite on the same scale as the British state trying to eradicate thecotland, forcing it's people to emigrate, wiping out the Gaelic language, divided a nation and re-written Scottish as British history.

They didn't succeed!
125

Miss H,

03/11/2008 10:18:19
122 I think the SNP will win the by-election for the same reason that Obama will win the election in the States. Better data.

Also the Labour campaign has gone into negativity overdrive.

They are circulating leaflets saying things like Fife Council has stopped helping disabled people. There’s also an interview with a woman on one leaflet who claimed she phoned up the council to speak to Peter Grant and she was told he’s not interested in the area that she lives in (Levenmouth) he’s only interested in Glenrothes. So they are trying to play one locality off against another, as well as painting Peter Grant as Vlad the Impaler.

My feeling is that it will backfire on them. Voters are not stupid, whatever Labour may think. Labour's claims have now passed the stage where they have any credibility.
126

Miss H,

03/11/2008 10:21:22
125 Sorry I should have made it clear that the SNP is for all people living in Scotland.

If you are a union jack flag sorry I gave the wrong impression there. And congratulations on developing consciousness. That must be something of a breakthrough for a piece of cloth.
127

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03/11/2008 10:23:03
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128

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

03/11/2008 10:27:37
126 posts and very little of consequence - and loopy lia is back - Teeside's very own Glenda Slagg.

This by-election does not feel like Glasgow East where almost everyone, their cat and dog, thought that the SNP would win comfortably. In the run up to that by-election the SNP and their supporters here were a lot more triumphalistic than with this election.

I still it is too close to call - recounts on the night I feel with a thousand or so votes in it.
129

The Tin Man,

03/11/2008 10:27:57
#130 Miss H

Sounds a lot better than the usual drivel that the Labour party puts through the letter-box.
130

,

03/11/2008 10:29:34
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131

brownlie,

03/11/2008 10:30:12
127 Tin Man

I like your can-do attitude. Positivity must be a strange concept for you.
132

Miss H,

03/11/2008 10:30:14
135 For the SNP - yes, much better.
133

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

03/11/2008 10:31:48
#130 One issue in this campaign is how Peter Grant has been overshadowed by Salmond. At least in Glasgow East we heard from John Mason. I know that might make sense because Brown raising the ante but I just wonder how much voters are going to be switched off because the leaders have been fighting this by-election and not the candidates?
134

Miss H,

03/11/2008 10:32:01
134 Slightly dodgy memory there - in point of fact everyone except the SNP thought that Labour would hold Glasgow East! That's what the polls said and what the bookies said as well.

Glenrothes is different to Glasgow East for a number of reasons so it is more difficult to call.
135

Marian,

03/11/2008 10:32:17
New Labour are spinning like mad every day now to try and influence the outcome of the Glenrothes By-election.
Thye have have taken to heart these words from Josef Goebbels. Hitler’s propaganda chief:- “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

Their internal polling is telling them that they are going to lose Glenrothes to the SNP.

They have already gone as far as analysing their own failures.

See http://www.scribd.co
m/doc/7698602/Labour
-Cllr-Minutes for the details of what a shambles the Fife Labour constituency party members think the once proud Labour party has become under first Blair and now Brown's "New" Labour branding.

New Labour is in terminal decline and there's nothing they can do but spin and spin to try and delay the inevitable demise of their political party.
136

Miss H,

03/11/2008 10:33:11
140 In the media campaign perhaps because the media want Alex. But on the ground Peter Grant has been round many thousands of doors.
137

brownlie,

03/11/2008 10:36:00
144 spook

lol!
138

Rodster,

Glasgow 03/11/2008 10:36:22
I hope the good people of Glenrothes remember it was Gordon Brown that decided Mrs Thatcher is to have a British State Funeral.
up there with the likes of Churchill and the Duke of Wellington.
Makes you proud to be British huh??
where's the spew bucket????
139

PaulW,

Borders 03/11/2008 10:38:18
#99 - Ireland's GDP per capita is higher than ours (as is Iceland's) and both will oprobably be so even after the recessions in all three countries (UK included).

#11 - An IQ above 100 means SNP voters (more than 102)are a good bit above average intelligence. Hence if the North Briton was trying to imply SNP voters are thick, the last laugh is on them. Given this, I am guessing the IQ of some writing for the paper could be questionable?
140

brownlie,

03/11/2008 10:39:31
146 Rodster

Are they going to wait until she's dead first or is there still some justice in the world?
141

Rodster,

Glasgow 03/11/2008 10:42:59
149~ brownlie alas ...
however the longer she is with us and Brown keeps having her round to Chequers for tea and biscuits the better
142

brownlie,

03/11/2008 10:46:59
150 The Spook

I think it was the comment before (not literally. First time I laughed since Saturday when my bet on Annan went down!
143

PaulW,

Borders 03/11/2008 10:48:34
#150 - Spook in leith. I used to think so too. However, they can't be that smart, given their circulation keeps falling (I am a former customer myself) when there are 650,000-750,000 SNP voters out there.

I am not asking for them to become an SNP paper, but do want impartiality and objectivity when I buy a paper. When will they wake up and drop this bias in favour of Labour?
144

brownlie,

03/11/2008 10:52:41
154 PAUL

"When will they wake up and drop this bias in favour of Labour?"

Perhaps after Thursday but certainly not before then.
145

Miss H,

03/11/2008 10:56:07
137 Most 'Scots' and 'Brits' are ethnically identical you silly woman.

Take your nasty racial obsession and pack it away neatly with your union jack. Both belong in the dustbin of history.
146

Ananurhing,

03/11/2008 10:58:17
#154 PaulW

I posted this on another thread. Seems quite fitting here too.

"We all know how fond our politicians and journalists are of back slapping ceremonies and awards. We should have a new annual award, voted for by the public. For the most insincere, cringeworthy, sycophantic display of "Unblushing subservience" from the Scottish political press.
The award should be called a "Hamish", or a "Hambo".

"And this years Hambo nominations are......."

To stand and rail against the "Unblushing subservience"
of the established press, was the Hootsman's founding mission statement! WTF happened?"
147

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03/11/2008 11:03:57
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148

PaulW,

Borders 03/11/2008 11:06:02
#159 - The Spook in Leith - Nice one: I am glad someone has a use for it!

#158 - Ananurhing - excellent idea. Trouble is, we might take a few years to work our way through nominating and awarding to the backlog of those deserving a Hambo, but I can live with that.

Surely there must be potential to offer a lifetime achievement hambo to a few, such as the "Hambo" himself, not to mention Glen Campbell and Gary Robertson at the beeb and Douglas Fraser, coincidently, now at the Beeb. They are all so deserving.

149

Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 11:06:44
157 Miss H

You seem to think that is okay for Governements, well ALL Governments that have SNP in the title, to actively attack the culture and ethnicity of their citizens if it is inconvenient for them to let that culture thrive.

This is exactly parrallel to how the BNP, the SNP's sister party, would behave. Just because the SNP hate Britishness, it does not give them the right to abuse their position and attack citizens' rights to freedom of assembly and freedom of expression.

Like many a BNP party member, you cannot even bring yourself to acknowledge that the SNP's attack on the Union Flag represents something that is wicked and intolerant of others.
150

PaulW,

Borders 03/11/2008 11:08:00
Either 160 is a spoof or living proof that Labour are now even faking studies on their supporters' IQs. We should be told.
151

Number 6,

Germany 03/11/2008 11:08:02
It's galling that Liebour even have the audacity to fight this seat, given their record of greed corruption and incompitence.

Pathetic attempts to re-brand Brown as mister compitent, Mr Leader, have been so base they would not fool America's finest red-necks.

Brown's bringing someone as repulsive, corrupt and discredited as Mandleson back to the top trough, shows Liebour's contempt for the public and brings his sanity into question yet again.

Voting Liebour or it's equally corrupt partners the Tories really is a no brainer. I doubt the majority of the people of Glenrothes are that foolish.

Enough really is enough, especially with Cameron admitting Scotland can survive on it's own.
152

Rodster,

Glasgow 03/11/2008 11:08:17
Thank you Lia your fear of the inevitability of independence comes through in your postings.
It gives me great heart as a Nationalist to read yuor comments and fortifies me to get myself back to Glenrothes one more time before Thursday .
again a thousand thanks
153

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

03/11/2008 11:08:25
#157 I would ignore lia and Viva - they are clearly trolls here on a wind-up.
154

Rodster,

Glasgow 03/11/2008 11:10:34
Ditto my last comment to Viva Victoria
155

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

03/11/2008 11:10:42
#152 I did not say that they would not win - but that the result would be tight - I still stand by that.
156

brownlie,

03/11/2008 11:11:08
156 The Spook in the sun

Actually I had a bet on Spartans to win 3 -1 but I'm reliably informed that one of the strikers(?) missed an open goal. Actually, if you manage to beat Elgin we'll have something more in common than the Waitrose bag!

157

Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 11:12:25
167 The federalist

Thanks for that. However, I'm not on the wind-up. When the SNP attack Britishness illegally, then I think that it is fair game to raise that as an issue.

I quite agree Lia's comments re 1940s Germany were quite innapropriate. Even more offensive than Miss H and her repeatedly support for Government initiatives designed at illegal suppression of openly expressing Britishness amongst the population of Scotland.
158

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03/11/2008 11:15:11
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159

Ananurhing,

03/11/2008 11:15:37
#164PaulW

Lia is Teesides answer to that daft wee burd on little Britain. "But yeah, but no, but maybes"

Who are we today Lia. Your Mum? Your Sister? Your boyfriend with the tatooed head? Or your Scottish Dad, who hates Scots?

"The sins of the Father shall be visited upon the child"
160

brownlie,

03/11/2008 11:21:16
171 VV

I don't recall posters on here attacking the British. I recall posters attacking the UK Government but not the British population.

I think posters object to Gordon Brown trying to force Britishness on people who, in the main, are not particularly interested - including the vast majority of our English friends.
161

Not a socialist,

03/11/2008 11:34:09
#91 sm 7531/2
Come on, everyone is allowed their opinion here. Just because they don't agree with your nationalist opinion doesn't make them a Labour 'cyber troll' plotting with the Labour candidate any more than you are an SNP 'cyber troll' plotting with the SNP candidate.

How about engaging with arguements rather than resorting to name calling?!
162

Ananurhing,

03/11/2008 11:36:19
#179 Spook

Likewise for the English nation, who see themselves primarily as English. And quite rightly so. Like Damon Hill yesterday proclaiming Lewis Hamilton as the first English champion for years. Gaunyirsel Cecil!

The English nation has much to be proud of, and has brought many good things to the world. They should rejoice and reconnect with that. I love English culture, and many things that are quintessentialy English.

Unfortunately Gordon Broon in drag as Brittania isn't one of them.
163

Not a socialist,

03/11/2008 11:40:18
I agree, this reporting on the findings of Edinburgh Uni's study is quite dodgy. No mention of the size of sample and suggesting that SNP, Tory and Labour supporters have a low IQ when they are reported as being over 100 - just silly. Labour and SNP attract a large number of voters and so must have quite a large number of very intelligent supporters to be able to pull the average over 100.

Still put a wee smile on my face that Lib Dem supporters were thought to be amongst the most intelligent though.
164

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/11/2008 11:42:39
#125 There is no such thing as "Brits". That is just a figment of your imagination.
165

santa cova,

03/11/2008 11:42:51
Maybe the Scottish labour party should introduce David Murray of (the most sectarian club in Europe)fame, into the equation.Murray could smear the good people of Genrothes as being sectarian,thus creating division and a split vote.
166

santa cova,

03/11/2008 11:47:41
#125 You are absolutely correct. In Scottish terms the word unionist means....One who is very insecure and is in need of constant hand outs and the shoulder of a big sister or brother to cry on.Why dont you just grow up!
167

Ananurhing,

03/11/2008 11:49:03
#186 Spook

Me too. Toodle pip old fruit!!
168

,

03/11/2008 11:52:00
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169

,

03/11/2008 11:52:51
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170

Not a socialist,

03/11/2008 11:53:07
180 & Spook
I think you can have more than one identity and that multi-culturalism can work in Scotland and Britain as a whole as long as we focus on shared values such as tolerance and freedom of speach.

I primarily see myself as Scottish but secondary to that I also see myself as British.
171

Ananurhing,

03/11/2008 11:54:03
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/1/20081103/ten-cowell-eyes-political-move-c60bd6d.html

Re things England should be proud of! This isn't one of them either. God help us!!!!!
172

brownlie,

03/11/2008 11:57:25
193 Are aware that there is an "r" missing from the end of your name. Is this deliberate?

What is an SNP tatoo?
173

brusque,

03/11/2008 12:02:53
Has there been any mention in this, or any other Scottish Newspaper, about the Toxic Waste from the Olympic site being dumped in Scotland?

I would have thought that would be major news.
174

Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 12:03:11
194 McKellerator

You seem to have just put words in my mouth for some inexplicable reason, only thus far known to yourself.

What I am saying is that the SNP are quite wrong to air brush out the union flags in photographs of British civic infrastructure built in Scotland.

Quite what that has to do with English children's relationship with the current British Prime minister is unclear to me. Although Brown is not ramming Britishness down any children's throats, I wish he was, maybe Britain wouldn't have 1,338 schools were English isn't the prominent language spoken.
175

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/11/2008 12:03:59
#171 "illegally"?

What are you on about?
176

brusque,

03/11/2008 12:04:51
I wonder if the people of Falkirk have heard about this?

"It has emerged today that contractors working for the Olympic Development Authority have made an approach to the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency (SEPA) for permission to dump a quarter of a million tons of toxic waste soil in central Scotland.

The soil, contaminated by oil and diesel, has been excavated from the site of the London Olympics and is now ready to roll 350 miles northwards to a site thought to be near Falkirk, should SEPA give the nod.""
177

TWC,

Ayrshire 03/11/2008 12:05:01
What some of the New Labour posters don't realise is that some of us see the only objective worth attaining is the removal of New Labour who have usurped the party for the purpose of satisfying middle England.
Scotland has been ignored by them until SNP gave them a bloody nose.
Now they are doomed in Scotland at the next GE
178

Number 6,

Germany 03/11/2008 12:11:30
171 Victoria.. "Britishness?". And just what is that exactly. How will you and your fellow "Brits" be celebrating "Britishness day", that's if it ever see's the light.

I can only assume you are a member of the Scottish unionist party... am I correct ?.
179

Number 6,

Germany 03/11/2008 12:12:21
171 Victoria.. "Britishness?". And just what is that exactly. How will you and your fellow "Brits" be celebrating "Britishness day", that's if it ever see's the light.

I can only assume you are a member of the Scottish unionist party... am I correct ?.
180

arc of insolvency,

03/11/2008 12:15:52
Time to vote the SNP out of Glenrothes for their councils failing there and the Scottish government failure to deliver manifesto pledges(student loans, nursery care).
181

Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 12:15:54
You can say that again.
182

Number 6,

Germany 03/11/2008 12:16:56
So good he posted it twice.(OOPS).
183

arc of insolvency,

03/11/2008 12:18:49
connaughtboy I'm Scottish and British so your the figment of imagination.

Good to see the SNP blinkered bigoted approach continue, what a proud party you are!!!!!
184

Number 6,

Germany 03/11/2008 12:20:23
Time to sweep Liebour out of every council in Scotland. No more of their incompitence and corruption.
Lets go for clean Scotland centric goverment.
185

,

03/11/2008 12:20:26
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186

Marga,

Fife 03/11/2008 12:25:47
Calum: re. Scotsman's goind quiet on HBOS, see article in Sunday Herald.

Lloyds TSB deny taking ‘slash and burn’ approac
Gloves come off as English bank threatens to sue The ScotsmanBy Ian Fraser

Lloyds TSB on Friday threatened to sue the Scotsman newspaper after it ran a front-page story quoting Eric Daniels, its chief executive, as saying he was "indifferent" to the 300-year heritage of the Bank of Scotland.

The bank demanded that the newspaper publish a front-page correction.
187

Not a socialist,

03/11/2008 12:27:05
213 - well said!
188

Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 12:28:33
213 McKellarator

You appear to be putting more words in my mouth. I wish you wouldn't, you come across as immature, amnipulative and small-minded which discourages any response at all.

I think that when we all speak, teach and learn in English it costs less, is far more inclusive and produces a generation with a superior education. I would say this is true in any country. The French teach in French, Germans in German and the British should teach in English.

Your cheap shots and typical Nationalist use of base and vulgar rhetoric is a tiring bore.
189

Miss H,

03/11/2008 12:29:34


Who cares if people class themselves as Scottish, British, Double Dutch or Gallifrean?

It doesn’t matter in the slightest. There are 5 million Scots and all have their own identity. What matters is voting for a party that puts Scotland first and there is only one party that does that.

Supporters of independence – do not get dragged into nasty debates about identity/race.

This is a deliberate ploy to try and distract us from delivering real self-determination for all the people of Scotland, who will define themselves as they see fit.

People are not flags – flags don’t matter. People do.
190

Ewan M,

03/11/2008 12:33:42
Miss H exactly and for the last 35 years people have voted to stay in the UK, so you can stop detracting from the real issue in Scotland and dump Independence.

As for flags the SNP use them as if it's their party symbol!!!!
191

Marga,

Fife 03/11/2008 12:39:26
See story in this paper - can we participate, or is it just a sop to make us feel we really have a say? I have my doubts. However:

MPs to quiz banking system bosses

Commons Treasury Committee are to grill Darling, King and Turner over their handling of the banking crisis.

BUT see this:

"Unusually, the committee has invited members of the public to submit questions which they would like to see put to the authorities about the bail-out."

No timescale or dates or anything given, but does anyone want to have a go? See below:

http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_committees/treasury_committee.cfm

Committee announces inquiry into the Banking Crisis and seeks questions from the public - see Press Notice, 14 Oct 2008 for details

Treasury Committee: Press Notice

14 October 2008: For Immediate Release

TREASURY COMMITTEE INVITES QUESTIONS FROM THE PUBLIC TO PUT TO THE CHANCELLOR ON THE BANKING CRISIS

Following the unprecedented financial intervention announced by the Chancellor over recent days, the Treasury Committee today announces it will undertake an urgent inquiry into the banking crisis.

John McFall, Chairman of the Committee said:

“This inquiry will take a fundamental look at the causes of the present banking crisis, the current responsibilities of the banks and the Government to the taxpayer, and the future shape of the financial and regulatory landscape.”

Given the public concern about the stability of the UK banking system and commitment of such a large sum inherent in the Chancellor’s proposals, the Committee is asking members of the public to send in questions they would like to see put to the following witnesses, who the Committee has invited to appear as soon as possible.

Witnesses:

The Rt. Hon. Alistair Darling MP, Chancellor of the Exchequer
Mervyn King, Governor of the Bank of England
Lord Adair Turner, Chairman, Financial Services Authority

Questions should be emailed to the following address:

bankingcr
192

,

03/11/2008 12:39:48
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193

Miss H,

03/11/2008 12:40:44
218 You are making a really risky argument there. If your argument is that because the SNP has not won a majority of seats in an election the Scottish people have voted against independence.

Think of the corollary. If the SNP wins a majority of seats at the Westminster election, which is a possibility, by your logic we will then be able to declare independence.

194

Marga,

Fife 03/11/2008 12:41:15
Continued:

Questions should be emailed to the following address:

bankingcrisis@parliament.uk

The date of the hearing will be announced in due course.

John McFall, Chairman of the Committee said:

“Taxpayers are naturally very concerned about the scale of this investment. The Committee hopes that by providing people with the chance to have us put their questions to those in charge, we can provide a constructive way of engaging the public on a matter of such deep concern to the whole country.”

FURTHER INFORMATION ON SUBMITTING QUESTIONS

Questions can be submitted up to 48 hours before the hearing, which will be announced at a later date. The Committee regrets it cannot accept any other form of submission apart from email to the following address:

bankingcrisis@parliament.uk

Submissions should take the form of questions rather than statements and should be no longer than 100 words. If you wish to remain anonymous, please state clearly at the beginning of the email.

The Committee regrets that not all questions submitted can be guaranteed to be asked.

Full written submissions of evidence for the inquiry will be solicited at a later date.
195

Jocknroll,

Dunfermline 03/11/2008 12:46:18
Two points:

1. Listen to the SNP's interview at www.vrn1287.com and ask yourself if this guy actually wants to be an MP.

2. I'm surprised none of the papers have picked up on the story of the boy who approached someone from one of the political parties in the Kingdom Shopping Centre two weeks ago to ask if Gordon Brown or Alex Salmond would be making an appearance during the election because he had questions for them. The boy, who is autistic and has a degree in politics, was met with a responses of "what's it got to do with you?" and "who are you?" from the gentleman concerned. The party person then reported the boy to the police who then turned up at his parents house with an e-Fit of the "terrorist". The party activist concerned should be done for wasting police time and sacked from his party. Do these people want our votes?
196

Alba Abú,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 12:48:30
218 There are many insecure people in Scotland who wish to remain under English rule,you being one of them.
Therefore, it should come as no surprise to any of us when in most countries of the civilised world, Scotland is looked upon as being a non entity and simply described as being part of England. I have heard it myself in many contries being called England. The people of the USA and further afield use the word England in relation to the island of Britain. Are you happy with an English identity! Are you happy to be born in one country and have the identity of another foisted on you? If you are, then all I can offer you is my sympathy!I have great respect for England and the English people but I stop short of being called English.
197

The Tin Man,

03/11/2008 12:49:56
#217 Miss H

The SNP are an ethnic-patriotic independence party. Their main aim is to change flags, all else is an aside. But you wrote:

"Who cares if people class themselves as Scottish, British, Double Dutch or Gallifrean?

It doesn’t matter in the slightest. There are 5 million Scots and all have their own identity. What matters is voting for a party that puts Scotland first and there is only one party that does that.

Supporters of independence – do not get dragged into nasty debates about identity/race.

This is a deliberate ploy to try and distract us from delivering real self-determination for all the people of Scotland, who will define themselves as they see fit.

People are not flags – flags don’t matter."
198

The Tin Man,

03/11/2008 12:51:28
Miss H

You contradicted yourself twice in four paragraphs.
199

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03/11/2008 12:54:58
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200

Alba Abú,

03/11/2008 12:55:31
#221 Miss H .... Good post!
201

Alba Abú,

03/11/2008 12:55:36
#221 Miss H .... Good post!
202

Alba Abú,

03/11/2008 12:56:49
And posting twice by me proves it!
203

James.com,

03/11/2008 12:59:39
The dependency culture should ensure another Labour "Fix".
204

Miss H,

03/11/2008 13:01:58
225 A particularly potty point.

The SNP's aim is independence - what does that mean? It means that all powers currently exercised by Westminster in Scotland will transfer to the Scottish Parliament. That all powers exercised by the UK Government will transfer to the Scottish Government. That the responsibility for raising and spending revenues will transfer from the Whitehall Exchequer to a Scottish Exchequer. That all decisions will be made in Scotland and not in Westminster.

That's what independence means. It has nothing to do with ethnicity, nothing to do with flags.

I appreciate that there are people with an emotional attachment to the union jack, rule britannia and what-not. Fine, I don't care. Fly the union jack wherever you like. Paint your house like the union jack. It doesn't matter because flags are only symbols I am interested in the reality of where political power lies.
205

TWC,

Ayrshire 03/11/2008 13:03:32
Thin Man what are New Labours Westminster policies for Scotland then?
I see you attack the Nats and that ok I'll join you but they at least put their policies in writing.
Vote anybody BUT Labour.
206

Miss H,

03/11/2008 13:06:13
223 That is a shocker I am guessing it was Labour.

SNP rooms are at the High Street at Markinch.

Doubt the guy will be able to meet Alex, too late in the campaign for that, but if he goes along he will certainly be able to meet MPs, MSPs and probably at least one MEP and ask his questions. And he might meet Alex, it all depends on where he is and what he is doing.
207

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 13:06:14
Is the young boy in the picture in this story saying to his mum:

"Found this old guy wandering about confused and bewildered. Asked me if I would vote for him or something....."
208

Scotfree,

Erskine 03/11/2008 13:09:34
It is becoming apparent that the main reasons for appointing Murphy as Scottish Colonial Secretary is that, apart from his willingness to be a fauning lapdog to master Brown he was one choice, even more short sighted and stupid than Brown, suitable for a cabinet post. In short measure he has managed to upset more governments, than most could achieve in an entire career, with his stupid outbursts.(That this is matched by an ignorance of basic commercial confidentiallity is hardly surprising)
From The Times today…
“THE Icelandic government has appealed to Labour ministers to stop using its financial problems to undermine the case for Scottish independence.
Geir Haarde, the Icelandic prime minister, is said to be “incensed” by the comments.
Ministers have avoided becoming directly involved to avoid inflaming the situation. However Cameron Buchanan, Iceland’s honourary consul to Scotland, said suggestions that its banking crisis implied small countries could not manage their financial affairs were “objectionable”.
“Politicians are using Iceland’s predicament for their own political ends rather than for the benefit of the Scottish and Icelandic people,” he said.
Yesterday it emerged that the Norwegian government is also angry with Labour. Ambassador Bjarne Lindstrom said it was wrong to imply, as Labour has done, that comments by Norwegian foreign minister Jonas Gahr Store highlighting the differences between Scotland and Norway undermined the case for Scottish independence.

The UK is plunging into recession, and Gordon Brown is rushing through the takeover of HBOS regardless of the cost to Scotland.
“By contrast, the International Monetary Fund predicted that Norway, Finland and Sweden will all see their economies keep on growing this year and next.”

The cost to Scotland of fraudster Brown’s raid on HBOS alone is estimated to be 30 000 jobs, mostly in Scotland. In addition it is estimated that Browns interference in the pensions market has cost every
209

Not a socialist,

03/11/2008 13:10:42
217 Miss H
Identity can be discussed without discussing independence or unionism. However, I don't really see how independence can be discussed without at least a reference to identity - does the arguement for independence not relate, in part, to a percieved difference between Scotland and England and Wales?
210

Scotfree,

Erskine 03/11/2008 13:10:50
(cont)
The cost to Scotland of fraudster Brown’s raid on HBOS alone is estimated to be 30 000 jobs, mostly in Scotland. In addition it is estimated that Browns interference in the pensions market has cost every pension in the private sector over 17 000 pounds, his bungling approach to the recent crisis has, in addition, led the British economy to now being one of the smallest in Europe behind France, and Italy and a minnow compared to Germany. Without Scotland’s oil England would be nowhere with Browns “beg, borrow and bankrupt” approach to economics.
211

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 13:11:53
# 223. re autistic politics grad. I am sure that even at this late stage of the campaign Alex Salmond would be delighted to chat to this young man. Ask at the Markinch HQ.
212

Tom R,

03/11/2008 13:13:38
The irredeemably biased Hamish Macdonell managed to find the only bookmakers who didn't have the SNP as favourites to win Glenrothes-

"Bookmakers William Hill has Labour and the SNP as joint favourites to win, on 5/6."

Well, Hamish, here is the latest betting from William Hill: SNP 4/6; Labour 11/10 Others 100/1. All bookmakers now have SNP as favourites.

Hamish, quit your desperate and pathetic spin on behalf of Labour!
213

brownlie,

03/11/2008 13:14:34
216 Viva Victoria

Can you see the anomaly in your posting?

"This is true in any country. The French teach in French, the Germans in German and the British should teach in English".
214

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03/11/2008 13:17:46
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215

The Tin Man,

03/11/2008 13:19:41
#232 Miss H

"That's what independence means. It has nothing to do with ethnicity, nothing to do with flags."

Potty?

Sorry, but you are wrong. Ethnicity is the basis of the entity called 'Scotland'. Without ethnicity, there would not be a SNP. Unlike most of the other partys, ethnicity is the bedrock for everything the SNP stand for. I can't see how anyone could claim different.

Independence is entirely to do with flags and ethnicity. No-one is seriously saying us Scots would be richer or poorer. The core of the matter is that we would form an ethnic goup with our own flag. TThere is not that much more to it.
216

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 13:20:42
# 236 Scotfree The fact that britain knew about Iceland's troubles 6 months ago is another indicator that London Labour were more than delighted to allow Iceland to go to the wall to break Salmond's highly successful Arc of Prosperity argument.

Clearly the needs of the London Labour Party came before Iceland or the thousands of UK individuals and councils who would lose money if Icelandic banks fell.

Poor old London Labour hasn't quite cottoned onto the Internet Age yet. Guys, you can't get away with anything these days.

You might be able to control the press but not the net.
217

Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 13:26:29
216 Brownlie

No, there is no anomoly there. The Americans teach in English, the Australians teach in English, New Zealand teach in English, Canadians teach in English and in French.

Do you know what an anomoly is? I guess like most SNP voters you are so parochial as to not be able to think about anything beyong the edge of your cooncil estate before posting.

And on that note, I think i'll toddle off for the time being. And SNP voter trying to emphasise the need for Independence because there is no such language as British.

LOL! Would we speack Scottish in an independent Scotland? Or change our countries name to Gaelicland? Hehe, where do the SNP get there inteligensia from?
218

Ananurhing,

03/11/2008 13:26:41
#240 Tom R

What do we know? Apparently as supporters of independence we have a lower than average IQ according to Hamish. Not only that, we damn our children to the same fate! Only in the Hootsman would you get this guff attached to an election article!

Unblushing subservience indeed!!!
219

Ananurhing,

03/11/2008 13:32:26
#242 McKellarator

Yabyooty!!!!! Makes it's own sauce!!!!
220

,

03/11/2008 13:33:09
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,

03/11/2008 13:35:47
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Rodster,

Glasgow 03/11/2008 13:36:01
3
Jocknroll,
Dunfermline 03/11/2008 12:46:18
Two points:

1. Listen to the SNP's interview at www.vrn1287.com and ask yourself if this guy actually wants to be an MP.

thanks for the link only a Unionist would be stupid enough to give this as a criticism of A Nationalist .
If you listened instead of immediately condemning you would hear a truthful honest man full of integrity. ( I know this is alien to Unionists)
I hope everyone listens to him and the tom tabbard Labour placeman .
Glenrothes do your duty for Scotland
223

John S,

03/11/2008 13:39:13
#242.The McKellarator:That was good news - Trump's £1bn golf resort approved.
224

Ananurhing,

03/11/2008 13:39:41
#245 Victoria

"inteligensia"? Strange how you and Lia,Kimba,Kimba's Mum, Liz the 1st,etc. all misspell the same word the same way. Or am I just being amnipulative?
225

Publius,

London 03/11/2008 13:41:31
#251 John S
Dinna fret yerself. Trumpville will never been finished. It may not even get started.
226

Not a socialist,

03/11/2008 13:43:42
250 Rodster
Why is honesty and integrity "alien to Unionists"?

That's a very insulting and ignorant view you have there.
227

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03/11/2008 13:44:48
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brownlie,

03/11/2008 13:45:06
245 V V

Whilst I'm not sure about teaching the English language all over Britain I will not take lectures on intelligence from someone who murders the language that you promulgate and propogate.

Not only do I know what an anomaly is, I am also intelligent to know that it's not spelt anomoly and strangely enough I can also spell beyond, council, speech etc etc.

You do know that most of the English language is derived or borrowed from other languages.

Back to the kindergarten (german) for you, I'm afraid.
229

Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 13:46:27
252

You make some serious and well thought out points. Thank-god there are people in this world who have the time to check the spelling in rushed posts inbetween tasks.

You really are a credit to the cooncil quango organistion that pays your salary.
230

Willie Macleod,

Wick 03/11/2008 13:46:56
#46 Fifi La Bonbon No offence taken Fifi Sorry if I misunderstood your post. You were not unpleasent.

I allways enjoy reading your posts.

All the best Willie
231

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03/11/2008 13:46:57
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232

Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 13:51:15
257 Brownlie

You make some serious and well thought out points.

Thank god there are people in the world to whom posting on a website is the most important thing in the world.

I'm very much posting on the hop today. Not sure there is any connection between writing in a rush on the internet/spelling and intelligence.

As you have all the time in the world to make this site your life, we can only assume your intelligence is being under utilised by society.

Or we can assume you work for the cooncil.
233

Willie Macleod,

Wick 03/11/2008 13:52:41
#259 Correction "unpleasant"
234

Miss H,

03/11/2008 13:53:11
237. Of course there are differences but that isn't really the point. Independence is the most inclusive argument there is. What we are saying is that Scotland is a country, a community of shared interests. And as such should have the same powers as every other country in the modern world. We are not that everybody in Scotland is the same, or must be the same or that we should impose some kind of Scottish version of Norman Tebbit’s cricket test to weed out those who don’t truly ‘belong’. Neither is it about breaking up Britain or being against 'England' etc. It’s got nothing to do with that. If people have an emotional attachment to Britain or emblems of Britishness then fine. The chances are that their attachment is to some historic ideal so I don’t see the problem. Independence will not somehow eradicate shared history. It’s just a different structure for a different time. Changing the future does not change the past if you see what I mean.
235

Alan B,

03/11/2008 13:53:15
#The Tin Man

"Independence is entirely to do with flags and ethnicity. No-one is seriously saying us Scots would be richer or poorer."

Have to say I think that is complete rubbish.

In truth different people support independence or reject it for different reasons.

Personally i support independence for a few reasons many round the economy.

ie Largely i believe scotland would do better independent that joined at the hip with England.

Partly that is to do with having the tools of economic management at the disposal of the scottish government. But it is also to do with my believe Westminster has failed to manage scotland effectively. The north of Britain in general gets treated badly.

It is also abit more that just economics but goes into the whole concept of political power. (economics for me is just the most important job of the government)

Political power for me is best held at the scottish parliament rather than westminster as it means a vast improvement in democracy. It means that scotland can vote in its leaders and vote them out again when they fail to meet our expectations. With Westminster we end up with the political leaders our much larger partner in this union wants.

Pre devolution that meant another country was effectively voting in a political party and then appointing someone to run us with no democractic mandate. As such independence for me is about democracy.

Therefore where we had separate public services that england we had little democractic accountability eg education.

We had england voting for one education system and then appointing someone in scotland to run a different education system rejected by scotland at the ballot box.

Devolution has improved things to some extent but it is far too weak to really fundamentally change things.

As such arguing that independence is about ethnic origin is wrong for many people. For many it is about political power.

As such if i was living in england i would want a fed
236

Alan B,

03/11/2008 13:54:10
...As such if i was living in england i would want a federal system set up there with power massively devolved to the regions. As i think the very centralised political system of the uk does not work. If i was from the north of england i woudl be angry about the pro south political system.
237

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03/11/2008 13:57:08
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238

brownlie,

03/11/2008 13:58:07
261 V V

Actually, I'm confined to this chair for the next month or so and then hopefully I'll be back at work but I'll still come and visit you occasionally.

As for the council job I work for an organisation that values humanity and human rights. Before that I worked for the Labour party which no longer shares those values.
239

The Tin Man,

03/11/2008 13:59:10
#257 Brownlie

Don't wory - I have been nown to vote for the Greens, so I have been scientifikly proven to be more intelagent than the SMP fathful, and I cant spel either.

I blame the borstal.
240

Miss H,

03/11/2008 13:59:42
243 You are completely and utterly wrong. Living in Scotland is the basis of being Scottish. Ethnically there is no significant difference between the majority of people in Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Germany, Belgium, Holland etc. We are mainly Northern Europeans but that is a description not a nationality and a nationality encompasses those who are members of ethnic minorities as well as the majority group.

So it is not the same thing at all and arguing that each country has its own ethnic identity is a pretty dangerous argument to make.
241

Brian Hill,

03/11/2008 13:59:49
#253 Hen Broon: Yet another example of how the Internet is making lying to the people nigh on impossible.

MAJOR SNP GOVERNMENT GOOD NEWS announcement: Trump's Golf Course has been given the go ahead. Thousands of jobs short term and long term and another world beating tourist attraction for Scotland.

Glenrothes, please vote SNP on Thursday and make it a double whammy for the Left, Obama and Grant victories.
242

Calum10,

03/11/2008 14:01:53
The messages on the streets of Glenrothes are this;

SNP lowers you bills and taxes, Labour increases your bills and taxes.

SNP creates jobs, Labour destroys jobs.
243

Ananurhing,

03/11/2008 14:02:21
#258 Victoria

Hey, I can misspell with the best of them. I was merely pointing out the similarities.

I can assure you no cooncil quango, or anyone else for that matter, pays my salary! Just me masel! And the people who's salaries I pay! I also happen to pay a lot of money to quangos!
244

brownlie,

03/11/2008 14:03:23
268 Tin man

lol

borstal - does not sound very English to me. It is a German soup?
245

The Tin Man,

03/11/2008 14:07:18
#264 AlanB

No, you are agreeing with me. As per your post, you wish to be free from the voting intentions of a seperate ethnic grouping (the 'English').

You either did not undertand my post, or you do not wish to understand my post.

246

Number 6,

Germany 03/11/2008 14:07:36
261# Victoria: If the SNP were to take Glenrothes, what would you put that down to ?.

I see you remain unable to explain "Britishness" or what you will be doing to celebrate during "Britishness day".
247

The Tin Man,

03/11/2008 14:12:12
#269 Miss H

I emphathise with your sentiments.

However, ethnicity is in the eye of the beholder. You are a for political independence, but politics is but a small part of what you are asking.
248

The Strategist,

03/11/2008 14:13:19
You know that story about Labour reducing the wealth gap... Well errr..

http://tinyurl.com/5c239u
249

Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 14:15:29
275 Number 6

You're putting words in my mouth. I've never advocated actively celebrating being British, I just condemned the SNP for actively trying to suppress it. The difference between the two is hopefully not so subtle as to be apparant, even to you.

I would put an SNP win in Glenrothes down to many people wanting rid of Labour. Alex Salmond admits that himself that many voters vote SNP because they look like a better deal that Labour, but that does not mean they want independence. AS actually seemed reasonable on the Daily Politics today, a first!

Unfortunately Scotland is full of plebs who just vote Labour/SNP because they always have and their daddy before them. Fife is especially full of such plebs, so I wouldn't hold my breath, Labour has been ingrained there for years.
250

The Tin Man,

03/11/2008 14:18:00
#277 Miss H

Unfortunately, you do not understand the meaning of the word 'ethnicioty'. Please look it up in a dictionary.
251

Not a socialist,

03/11/2008 14:18:02
263
While I quite agree that an independent Scotland does not necessitate a homogenous Scotland, my point is that identity acts as (perhaps one of many) catalysts in the desire for independence. And by identity I mean the sense of belonging to an imagined community of people who have shared interests and that because of these shared interests the community can be defined as different to another imagined community.

I think I see what you are getting at in the sense that an independent Scotland doesn't need to be made up of one ethnic group, for example (and I quite agree), but I would suggest that identity in its wider sense is a central factor.
252

Miss H,

03/11/2008 14:18:08
274 I think perhaps it is you that does not understand what the word 'ethnic' actually means.
253

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03/11/2008 14:18:38
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254

Ananurhing,

03/11/2008 14:20:06
#279 The Strategist

Not sure if we should be shocked by this or not. He should fit in nicely in Scotland. Seeing as how the majority of the Scottish land mass is owned by people doing exactly the same things. Less than a thousand of them own 70% of it.
255

Miss H,

03/11/2008 14:20:27
282 A shorter way of saying 'the sense of belonging to an imagined community of people who have shared interests and that because of these shared interests the community can be defined as different to another imagined community' would be that we all live in the same country. And yes I think that is the basis of believing that the country we all live in should be independent. I think we put ourselves at a disadvantage by not being independent when our neighbours (and competitors) are.
256

Number 6,

Germany 03/11/2008 14:26:07
280 Victoria, there's no need to lash out with insults at every post. Where have I put words into your mouth?

Good to see you think people would vote SNP to get rid of Liebour, obviousley you have no faith in any of the unionista parties.

To say people have voted SNP because their fathers always have, shows you no little of Scotland's political history. It is only recently that the SNP have risen to promise , indicating the fact that many many many people must have switched parties , or are first time voters, which would be even better.

Your desperation to hang on to the coat-tails of the english and remain punder the unionista yoke shines through like a beacon in each and every one of your
posts.

If people voted SNP to get rid of Liebour/tory party,
do you seriousley think they would then say "Oh naw SNP , we must stay under London control because"
:
(All together now unionistas) "We cannae dae it on oor own. AGAIN ! "We cannae dae it on oor own"........

Great to see Trump getting his courses under way despite Liebour's best efforts to stifle investment in the area.

I bet your devastated Vicky.
257

Alan B,

03/11/2008 14:26:48
#274 The Tin Man

My point is it is not about ethnic groupings. It is about where political power reside and democratic accountability.

I support EU membership because i think i think it is in scotlands economic interest. I support some of the main concepts that the EU brings single market, freedom of movement of people, can work anywhere within the EU, common currency and support the development of a common foreign policy.

However when I look at the uk union i do not think it brings things that support scotland national interest. It is detrminental to scotland economically. And the over centralisation of the uk means that it has for a long period been detrimental to scotland politically.

If I thought the uk union was in scotland interests then I would support scotland remaining within the union. As such my support for independence is not based on ethnic groupings per se but on what is best for scotland as a country.

As such much of the reason I support independence is becuase of what i perceive the failure of the uk.

The other point you are completely overlooking. People like me that support independence are happy to have a union with england but as an individual member of the EU. To a large extent the eu union has superceded the uk union and made it obsolete.


258

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03/11/2008 14:27:18
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259

Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 14:30:42
287 Number 6

Ales Salmond thinks that people would vote SNP to get rid of Labour. So, if you won't take my word, take his!

And yes, I am devistated by the Trump scandal. Since when did Scotland name its roads after rich/corrupt foreigners and call them "Boulevards". I know people like you who clean toilets on minimum wage for a living will be pleased for more job opportunities. But there are still some of us who think Scotland can aspire to more than cleaning the toilets of Americans on "Trump Boulevard" in Scotland.
260

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/11/2008 14:30:44
289 Traquir#

Contrary to the best efforts of the unionists and their childish and naive take on this whole matter the truth is nowming out. BOS to go, no name, no printing of notes and no HQ on the mound and massive job losses.

Still a great deal for HBOS?



261

Alan B,

03/11/2008 14:32:33
#The Tin Man

I did understand your post. When you said "No-one is seriously saying us Scots would be richer or poorer."

To me that is rubbish. I would say most of those that support independence believe scotland would be economically better off than as part of the union. (rightly or wrongly).
262

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/11/2008 14:33:38
290 eejit#

I think you will find that there are a few more jobs than cleaning toilets. The course will be world class like st andrews and Gleneagles and they are vital to the local economy...not jobs 'cleaning toilets'!

263

The Tin Man,

03/11/2008 14:35:59
#292 AlanB

The only thing we know for sure is that we would be living in a Scotish State. The rest is what-if & maybe.
264

Alan B,

03/11/2008 14:38:32
#The Tin Man

If the economic evidence suggested scotland would be better of economically if independent would you support still support the union?

ie would you rather have a poorer scotland within the union or a richer one outside - if that is what the economic evidence suggested.

(It is noticable that the few unionist supporters that will answer that question would rather have a poorer scotland within the union. )
265

Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 14:39:48
293 Nevsky

More jobs than cleaning on "Trump Boulevard" eh? Mowing the lawn, carrying suitcases, turning beds down, serving drinks, collecting lake balls, running the golf shop, polishing brass, all on "Trump Boulevard", all on minimum wage.

Not to mention receptionists/administrative staff. Wowee! Gee shucks Mr Trump, that sure is swell of you to give the honest-to-goodness hardowrking Scottih immigrant from Eastern Europe such fine jobs.
266

Not a socialist,

03/11/2008 14:40:33
286
I do think that Scotland would benefit from having far more powers (though probably not to the same degree as you do), but I can't see how independence would protect us from our independent neighbours. Are we not in a union with many countries in Europe and this protects us to a certain extent from non-EU competitors? I know that the EU isn't necessarily the best example but I do like the idea that we could use federalism to pool (rather than pull) responsibilities for areas that we have a common interest with the other areas of the UK.

I'm open to suggestions to the contrary - might not agree but will listen!
267

The Tin Man,

03/11/2008 14:40:51
#286 Miss H

So we agree.

Wow... that was a struggle.
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03/11/2008 14:42:45
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Alan B,

03/11/2008 14:43:31
#294 The Tin Man

"The only thing we know for sure is that we would be living in a Scotish State. The rest is what-if & maybe."

That to some extent is true. But that is not what you posted above when you said people that support independence do it based on ethnic grouping as there reason. To me it is about the economy. Different people will have different reasons.

I challenged your remark as it was posting telling other why people who support independence do so. When it is infact maybe one reason but different people will have different reasons.

You are correct it is a subjective opinion on whether scotland would be better off economically. People have to weigh up the evidence. How have we done? How are we performing compared to others? How are we likely to do in the future? What are the disadvantages and advantages of any course of action?

But politics itself is subjective. Do you vote tory or labour. You do so depending on who you think would government the country best. That view may or may not be true. And is also dependent on what you perceive to be best.



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03/11/2008 14:43:47
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03/11/2008 14:43:53
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03/11/2008 14:44:32
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The Tin Man,

03/11/2008 14:44:47
#295 AlanB

As I think you know, the economic argument is generally a tenuous short-term collection of ifs and buts. I am rather more unwelcoming of the general (unnecessary) upheaval, organised by incompetents.
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Alan B,

03/11/2008 14:46:04
#297 Not a socialist

Has the eu union not superceded any need for the uk union? If not why not?



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03/11/2008 14:48:25
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Nevsky,

Moscow 03/11/2008 14:48:26
296 vic#

It's a GOLF COURSE, what jobs do you expect? However Trump has stated that he will source as many products as he can locally so that will pump millions into the economy every year.

This will not be the only investment Trump brings to Scotland and anyway i truest his judgement over yours, he has made billions as a developer in one of the toughest cities in the world while you have done what exactly?

How many do you employ?


277

Miss H,

03/11/2008 14:49:07
297 Yes we are in the EU which the SNP supports (and also supports joining the euro). Within the single market however it's not a question of protecting ourselves, it’s a question of competing on a level playing field.

Other governments in Europe can do things that the Scottish Government can’t do - because it doesn’t have the powers.

I believe that puts Scotland at a disadvantage and I also believe that we will have better decision making when decisions are taken in the Scottish Parliament rather than Westminster.

It’s a matter of opinion of course but the issue is where political power should lie not what flag should be flown.
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The Tin Man,

03/11/2008 14:49:24
#300 AlanB

I am saying that people who support independence based on Scotish patriotic ethnicity have a genuine, concrete reason for supporting seperation.

My opinion is that people who support independence for other reasons do not have a concrete reason for their support.
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Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 14:49:24
301 Nevsky

Alex Salmond said on today's Daily Politics on beeb1 that the SNP can win no victory on constitutional matters at such a bi-election.

So you are the only one silly enough to propgate such nonsense. I appreciate you feel strongly about cleaning toilets on minimum wage and films starring Mel Gibson, but we must keep sight of reality. The constituional matter will fail in 2010, while the SNP will still get more votes than Labour in many places because their policies withint the Union are better.

Just ask Alex Salmond? He'll tell you as much himself.

Anway, I know you don't clean toilets. You've got "Benefits class" written all over you. You get so much free money it's pointless doing a job for less then 20k. And you have no skills to get that kind of money so sit on your fat squicky keister all day ranting about rubbish.
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Miss H,

03/11/2008 14:52:01
Ah I know who you are now - someone else spells it bi-election.

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Miss H,

03/11/2008 14:53:13
309 Then the SNP doesn't have a concrete reason for supporting independence.

Yet we do.
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Not a socialist,

03/11/2008 14:55:47
305 Alan B

Good Point! Perhaps it has to some degree. Though I would still suggest that things like road networks and defence might be best shared with our neighbours in the UK rather than our counterparts in mainland Europe due to the nature of sharing a wee set of islands.

Which powers would you leave to Europe and which would you devolve to Scotland?

Any thoughts Miss H?
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The Tin Man,

03/11/2008 14:56:28
#312 Miss H

Oh, no you don't!

Salmond is a big fat neep.

The Tin Man
(aged 7 1/4)
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Not a socialist,

03/11/2008 14:57:01
305

I forgot to mention responsibilities for embassies and consulates. I think they should be kept at UK level too.
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Alan B,

03/11/2008 15:01:18
#304 The Tin Man

"the economic argument is generally a tenuous short-term collection of ifs and buts"

My question was a hypotherical one you have avoided.

The point of the question is to determine whether someone supports the union based on what is good for scotland economically or if scotlands interests come second to being part of the uk union.

There is little point arguing over the economics of a situation if it does not matter to ones political viewpoint. Abit like trying to persuade John Redwood of the economic advantages of the euro. His economic opinion while maybe valid is solely determined by his political view.

The problem with your argument "tenuous short-term collection of ifs and buts". That effectively means government does not matter. What happens to the economic will happen anyway. It does not matter if a country has high or low taxation. It does not matter if a country joins the euro or uses a different currency. As such i find that argument abit bizzarre. Alhtough i can understand someone saying that they do not understand the economic issues enough to have an opinion or not sure which economic options are best ie euro or sterling etc.

" I am rather more unwelcoming of the general (unnecessary) upheaval, organised by incompetents."

Having the power to join the euro or vary taxation to improve economic performance is only unnecessary upheaval if you do not think it will make a difference.

Having the power to elect you own leaders and political parties is only unnecessary if you do not believe in democracy and a country choosing the policies and government of the day.

You remark about incompetents is a cheap shot that can be levied at nearly every political party and party of government. Brown for instance could hardly have been more incompetent. It also dangerously suggests that scotland is incapable of running itself and would inevitably be lead by incompetents and we need the intellectual input of england to be well ru
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Alan B,

03/11/2008 15:01:58
...run. Something history suggest is not true.

Finally do you support
1)the scottish parliament
2)significantly more powers for the scottish parliament.



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Ananurhing,

03/11/2008 15:02:58
#306 Traquair

"George IV Bridge" or the "Scotsman Steps"?

#309 Tin Man "My opinion is that people who support independence for other reasons do not have a concrete reason for their support"

That's complete tosh and you know it!

#310 Vic

You ARE Kimba, and I claim my prize!!
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izzie,

dundee 03/11/2008 15:03:53
Vote for the SNP not another red balloon as lobby fodder. The Labour Party have done nothing for the Scottish people and they will be even less likely to do anything while Middle England needs naturing. I wish I had a vote on Thursday I envy yyou voters of Glenrothes and your chance to make history.

ALBA GU BRATH
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Number 6,

Germany 03/11/2008 15:07:42
310 Vicky , I will assume those insults were meant for me. What utter ignorance drenched garbage you spout. Your envy ref Trump seeps from your every pore. How pathetic you must be to shriek in protest at this huge investment. I suppose your fustration is borne on the wings of unionista neglect.

Liebour did try to woo Trump, even flying him around in helicopters, but they waited too long, expecting a Brown envelope under the table, as that is their usual way of dealing with private business.It took the SNP to make this happen.

In this climate of financial meltdown , what kind of person is it that would protest this huge investment and job creation. Only the kind of sad, twisted confused and fustrated individual you obviousley are.

Feel free to continue letting the insults fly, I realise it is your only release, but know this,your making yourself and your cause more worthless by the post.

Any chance of you revealing who you will be voting for at the next General Election ?.
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Miss H,

03/11/2008 15:11:40
313 I think the balance of powers at EU level is about right the way it is.
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The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

03/11/2008 15:13:02
#270, #276, #278

In the current economic climate it may be some time before Trump goes through with his plans. Trump has problems with his latest US project - Chicago's Trump International Hotel & Tower. According to the Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122523704293478077.html?mod=googlenews_wsj).
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Andy Stewart,

Cumbernauld 03/11/2008 15:13:18
A very good piece just now on political betting.com by Mike Smithson.

He's calling it right for the SNP

A week ago I suggested here that the 7/4 Labour price that was then available was a good value bet and was where my money was going. My reading at the time was that this was a 50-50 chance so odds greater than evens represented value.

Well we’ve moved on a week, we’ve had a so-called “Glenrothes poll”, and I’ve had chance to consult the person I most trust to read Scottish politics. And the result is that I’ve switched my betting to the SNP - which thanks to the betting move to the Labour last week - has been at better prices than were available then.

I’m told that the SNP machine is working well and the party was flooded with volunteers over the weekend.

The factor that will be key is which party is going to be better at getting its vote out on a dark and perhaps damp evening in November. It’s here that I judge the SNP to be better placed.

Cast your mind back to a similar dark evening in the neighbouring constituency of Dunfermline in early February 2006 and remember the shock when Labour could not beat off the challenge from then leaderless and troubled Lib Dems.

Whatever the media narrative might be suggesting at the moment the most recent national poll has them 14% behind the Tories. In February 2006 they were . neck and neck.

Live Glenrothes betting.

Mike Smithson
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03/11/2008 15:16:13
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Stuntman Mike,

03/11/2008 15:16:43
Interesting to see voters for the three main UK nationalist parties propping up the IQ league table: we all know how nationalism's more about "songs and heroes" than anything else and how it appeals to a certain mindset: about says it all really, does it not!

#310: well done to the ex pat kimba spotter!
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Stuntman Mike,

03/11/2008 15:18:08
#326: do you want an in or an outcall LOL
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Daibhidh,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 15:19:46
Well, my IQ is 142 and I vote SNP :P
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JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 15:23:46
The reason the SNP has hundreds of motivated activists is because we believe in what we are about, normal powers for our country and an end to London rule.

Contrast that with Labour where their local activists don't know why Labour do all the things they do in Government:

[From the Sunday Post] In the hand-written minutes, Gordon Brown’s election agent Alex Rowley admitted, “The party in Fife is not geared for modern campaigning. Across Fife there is a 5.5 per cent swing to the SNP, who work hard to identify their support and get them out. They hold masses of data on SNP support.

“Their organisation compared to Dunfermline and West Fife Labour Party is much better. People had voted SNP but we had them as Labour voters. The SNP info was more reliable.”

Labour activist Judy Hamilton claimed the party had lost touch. She said there was no attraction for young people and the party’s ethos was that of the south of England.”

Another activist, Tom Adams, said the party had no management structure. “Leadership in Scotland is lacking in the party,” he claimed.

Labour Councillor Ian Crichton admitted the SNP had momentum. He said, “We’re getting rid of incapacity benefit — why? The Gordon Brown photo with Thatcher was a big mistake. Gordon Brown should stay more Gordon Brown than presidential.”

----

Maybe they are also wondering why Brown has sold out the Bank of Scotland and plans to move the whole operation down south. It's because he only cares about Britain which is why his party deserves to get the boot from voters in Glenrothes and hopefully will.
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Number 6,

Germany 03/11/2008 15:24:13
Oh Vicky, was that you getting my post at 301 deleted?

Always the sign of a clueless loser.
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Alan B,

03/11/2008 15:25:08
#313 Not a socialist

I would look and say first what do i want devolved and come at it from the point of view i would only push powers up if there was a good reason for it.

As such i would want :

1)fiscal autonomy: in or out the union it is important that we sort the fiscal position out. Lacking fiscal control hurts the scottish economy and prevents scotland cominig up with economic solution to our economic poor performance.

It would change the culture of the scottish parliament from a spending parliament to one with devolved social responsibilities to one where economic wealth generation is at its core.

Think even with filming of braveheart and rob roy scotland could not compete with irelands tax breaks on films.

2)social security: it is so interwover with tax policy and economic policy.

3)all law and order issues:
a)it is riduculous that the scottish government cannot decide how many police in a police car while having responsibility for policing in scotland. Having the scottish justice minister writing to a uk minister and being refused permission to chance the number of police in a police car is ridiculous.
b)firearms: if you control policing you need the power to control law and order. And have that democratically decided by the public via the ballot box.
c)drugs: we saw the mess when labour in london recatogorised drugs but labour in scotland refused to change policing because of the change. We need clear lines of responsibility.
d)number of day detention
e)id cards

4)transport: it is silly to have trains devolved and track not. Labour sensibly devolved trains afew yrs after devolution after initially not. However in order to not change the scotland act for political reasons they left this silly split of responsibilities. If trains are going to be devolved we need powers to control it structures.

5)competition policy: personally would have like the hbos merger refused or atleast scurinised from a scottish perspective. I would n
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Alan B,

03/11/2008 15:25:39
...I would not persue the laisse laiffe takeover policies of westmister eg scottish power. Would like to split edin and glas airports monopoly etc.

6)energy policy: would like scotland via the scottish parliament to decide over matters like nuclear and renewables.

So that is my basis. Then i would look at the EU.

1)i would like scotland to join the euro as i think sterling has been damaging to scotlands economic interest.
2)like the single market
3)freedom of movement of people and ability to work anywhere.
4)would like a common eu foreign policy and some pulling of powers over peace keeping forces etc. Over matters like Yugolavia the eu did not have the power to react. Think it is better to use the eu power to help sort world troubled issues and rather than just reacting to crisis. The EU has neighbours in Russia, the middle east and africa. There is alot that can be done.

That leaves defence. I think they are the only real areas where there is some serious debate to be had about sharing powers with a uk union.

My conclusion to this is:
Any union should therefor be a very loose one. If anything it should be confederal with an independent scotland a member of the uk union in the same way that independent countries are members of the eu.

But is it really worth having a full union for defence only. Is it not best of have a defence union. which is what effectively what NATO is.

Also scotland does tend to have a different opinion to england over wars and military action along with views over nuclear weapons. As such any defence union should be a common defence policy not a single one.
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Number 6,

Germany 03/11/2008 15:27:11
Good grief and now you take out 326 because he highlighted your fixation with oral sex ???.
Look hen, if you can't deal with the banter,
(We know you can't deal with the issues), then please, step back from the keyboard.
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brownlie,

03/11/2008 15:28:05
310 victoria

What is wrong with cleaning toilets on the minimum wage? Would toilet cleaners be better off on benefits?

Do you imagine that staff such as Managers, Floor Managers, Head waiters, Head Greenkeepers, Receptionists with degrees in Languages etc etc work in establishments like the Connaught, Savoy, Gleneagles, Stobo Castle etc etc on the minimum wage?

Do you know any plumbers, electricians, joiners etc who will work for the minimum wage? No, you do not, so you look for the most menial task you can think of to use as your example.

Do you imagine that with all the local produce on their doorstep that the golf club, hotel and house-holders are going to import all their house-hold necessities.

I suspect if this had happened on Jack McConnel's watch the unionists on here would be high-fiving all over the place.
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JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 15:29:41
As for the children attacking Alex Neil and Alex Salmond for being slightly on the chunky side, just grow up! If you can't make a political point don't even bother. Your lack of ambition squeals out from every nasty spiteful bitter remark you leave.

Salmond and Neil are trying to defend Scotland from losing thousands of jobs, which all you can come up with is sad, cheap jibes about their weight. It beggars belief...
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03/11/2008 15:36:56
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Andy Stewart,

Cumbernauld 03/11/2008 15:37:54
Labour & SNP are no longer joint favourites.

SNP are heavy odds on and getting shorter by the minute



Snp 8/15 4/7 3/5 0.56/1
Labour Party 11/8 5/4 6/5 1.58/1
Conservative Party 100 100 100
Liberal Democrats 100 100 100
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Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 15:40:07
335 Brownlie

Wow, ehn you put it like that. Running a hotel and golf course might just be about the best thing that happened to Scotland in a generation.

Wow, I wish I could become a head waiter. It sounds so aspirational though, to carry plates around. Maybe with the confidence of independence I can one day aspire to carry a steak dinner to table 5. I'd better get my degree first though! I only have one in Physics at the moment, but will go back and do "languages with banjo making" to make my table wating dream come true.
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brownlie,

03/11/2008 15:40:27
325 sm753

Why do you keep referring to members of the SNP as Fat Alex, His Immensity and now "Porcine"? Do you think it reinforces your point of view in any way?

As a self confessed non-affiliated,non-Labour voter why are you never critical of Labour or refer to its members in derogatory terms?
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The Tin Man,

03/11/2008 15:45:30
#316 Alan B

You believe that micro-economics over-rides macro-economics. I choose to differ on that one. Your argument veers away from 'the common good'. Logically, Scotland would be more economically prosperous if swathes of Glasgow city were gifted to some other country, bringing us back to the ethnicity bit - you are willing to support people in Glasgow, but not in Derry, but you do so because you believe you will be better-off.

When I said that the economic argument is based on a tenuous short-term collection of ifs and buts, I should have been more specific. In the short term, the economic argument is mostly based on the oil price and oil production rates.

"Having the power to join the euro or vary taxation to improve economic performance is only unnecessary upheaval if you do not think it will make a difference."

As you know, that is but a small part of the upheaval.
309

Number 6,

Germany 03/11/2008 15:45:41
337 You see vicky, people can read you like a book. If people like you are for retaining the union then which sane person would not be for independence.

When you are reduced to pathetic jibes at the First Minister and "Parlimentarian of the Year" then you highlight again, as I have previousley said, that you have no answer to the argument in front of you.

Still too ashamed to admit who you will be voting for at the next general election I see.
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brownlie,

03/11/2008 15:45:47
339 Victoria

When you go out for a meal do you regard the people who serve you with the degree of arrogance and superiority you display on here?

You've obviously never been to a first-class restaurant if you think that Head-waiters carry plates around.

I note, not surprisingly, that you make no comment on local produce and services.

Did you get your degree from Jimmy Savile's programme?
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03/11/2008 15:50:52
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brownlie,

03/11/2008 15:52:47
344 The McKellarator

Don't go there.
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03/11/2008 15:56:08
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,

03/11/2008 16:00:09
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,

03/11/2008 16:02:39
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03/11/2008 16:08:25
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brownlie,

03/11/2008 16:09:39
349 sm753

All too offensive for my delicate sensibilities. Still, I'm glad you left my darling Cathy off your list! But you've left out obvious contenders like Browne, Gray, Kerr, Cairns etc.
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The Tin Man,

03/11/2008 16:10:39
Alexander Salmond is a very able political operator and Wendy Alexander is a very intelligent woman.

Now back to business...

Salmond is a big fat neep.
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brownlie,

03/11/2008 16:13:40
352 The Tin Man

He'd go down well with Brown, the Chieftain of the Pudding Race, at a Burns supper.
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Alan B,

03/11/2008 16:20:01
#341 The Tin Man

My argument is about what is good for scotland economically. ie what will allow us to deal with our poor economic growth. What is in scotland national interest?

What we have seen is the uk union has failed to deliver scotland a good economy. Growth less that 2% over 30yrs. Growth only 2.2% over the last decade while the uk has had growth of 2.8% and the group of small countries 3.6%.

I do not have a problem with scotland subisising other parts of the eu if our economic performance means we are doing well. I support the economic funds by the eu that means poorer regions and countries are funded via eu mechanisms.

I do not support scotland underperforming in the uk union becuase Derry is not doing well. I really do not understand that argument. It would be better for scotland to be positively contributing with a strong economy.

"I should have been more specific. In the short term, the economic argument is mostly based on the oil price and oil production rates"

Again i completely disagree. My economic views are due to scotland underperforming. It is has little to do with oil. Oil just demostrates how badly we have done and how we threw away an effective goldmine. Oil is also a window of opportunity. The more scotland is run down the harder it will be to take control of the economic tools and use them to transform scotland.

re fiscal autonomy and the euro
"As you know, that is but a small part of the upheaval."

I would say moving currency is probably the biggest upheaval of independence. Having a working parliament means the transition now is alot less. I support fiscal autonomy ideally before independence to minimise transitional change. Beyond that i see little transitional upheaval that will effect the man on the street aslong as eu membership is forthcoming. The biggest chance will really be sorting out new defence structures.

But i come back to my questions.
-Do you support the scottish parliament?
-And do you suppo
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Alan B,

03/11/2008 16:20:40
...support more powers for the scottish parliament? If so which powers.

To some extent it is the intrangient position of unionist parties over a period of time resisting a powerful scottish parliament within a federal uk that has fueled the need for independence.


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Masterpiece,

03/11/2008 16:23:22
I hope the Nationalists win Glenrothes on Thursday as it will be another disaster for those who see Scotland as a colony.

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New Town Resident,

03/11/2008 16:24:07
#321. Miss H.

You say the "current EU balance of powers is about right"

The SNP opposes both the CFP and the Lisbon Treaty does it not?

What do you propose doing about either prey?
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Chris42,

03/11/2008 16:25:27
Alan B
Agree your post at 333, Scottish Parliament needs full economic powers. I've heard talk of SP having assigned revenues which is pointless, I expect Calman will not deliver anything substantial. The more power devolved the better, you listed all the powers SP doesn't have, you could also have mentioned it doesn't even have control over the movement of abnormal loads on our roads (eg transformers, wind turbines) these must be authorised by Dept for Transport.
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Embra Don,

03/11/2008 16:26:11
#204 brusque,
That will give rise to a huge windfall in Landfill tax! Wonder who will get it?
Gordon did explain that the whole of the UK will benefit from the Olympics. Now we know what he meant.
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Alan B,

03/11/2008 16:28:33
#359 Chris42

I could also have mentioned that the scottish parliament does not have powers over the creation of casinos in scotland.

Remember the super casino issue where scottish cities had to compete with english cities for the right to host a super casino. Glasgow lost to Manchester before Brown pulled the rug beneath the whole idea.

I am not saying we should have a super casino or not but just find it ridiculous that the scottish parliament cannot decide whether scotland should have one or not.
327

Calum10,

03/11/2008 16:30:27
The messages on the streets of Glenrothes are these;

SNP lowers you bills and taxes, Labour increases your bills and taxes.

SNP creates jobs, Labour destroys jobs.
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Embra Don,

03/11/2008 16:31:47
re 360
Actually - I DO know that landfill tax exemption is available for contaminated material. Making mischief!
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Alan B,

03/11/2008 16:39:41
#Chris42

"I expect Calman will not deliver anything substantial. "

I am really not sure. I think it will depend on how well Brown and labour is doing in Scotland at the time of the report.

If labour win this by election I think Calman could be reined in.

With Wendy gone and Calman her idea, Grey is really someone who will do Browns bidding and could undermine Calman giving the Scottish parliament more powers.

One big issue regarding Calman was the commission into the mess of the last Scottish election. This commission setup by labour in london came to the conclusion that the powers over scottish parliamentary elections should be devolved. The scottish parliament agreed with that position but labour rejected the advice from its own commission.

As such it is difficult to see Calman giving the scottish parliament significantly more powers, if a small power like running an election is refused.

Labour even refused to devolve the naming of the scottish government/exec despite allowing Wales with a significanly less powerful chamber to call its exec government.

On the other side labour are really going to have to watch. Labour have come out completely against LIT. That really will alienate themselves with the lib dems. Can they go further and come out against significantly more powers for the scottish parliament without further infuriating the libs. Tavish Scott surprisingly is being alot more decisive about policy issues that Stephen.

Can labour really expect the go back into coaliton with the lib dems if they come down against more powers for the scottish parliament.

As such I am really not sure whether Calman will be a damp squib or will offer real powers. And whether labour will accept the recomendations.

The big thing with changing Barnett is how to change it without scotland losing out. Fiscal autonomy is clean. Any other outcome will probably cause more problems than they deal with.


330

The Tin Man,

03/11/2008 16:46:04
#355 Alan B

You haven't actually said anything apart from the 'select group of countries have had better recent economic growth than Scotland' bit. Where's the carrot? What are the policies?

The 'upheaval' involves the splitting-up and / or sharing arrangements for a large amount of State trappings and mechanisms. Changing the currency is comparitively unproblematic.

Why Scotland?

Why not give Edinburgh and Aberdeen more autonomy? They would prosper unencumbered by the less advantaged areas.
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Pleistoanax ,

03/11/2008 16:51:29
#358 New Town Residen

Miss H and the snp only wish to exchange the scottish peoples passing under the yoke of the United Kingdom to the scottish peoples passing under the Yoke of the E.U.
332

Pleistoanax ,

03/11/2008 16:56:44
#364 JK Priest,

relevant Caveat lector, to jk priest

"Presenting his "dark" forecast, Joaquín Almunia, economic and monetary affairs commissioner, said it was highly uncertain and volatile given the fragile state of global financial markets."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/nov/03/recession-economicgrowth
333

Chris42,

03/11/2008 17:04:55
Alan B 365

Would you agree that the extent of any new powers will more likely be determined by the likelihood of SNP winning an Independence referendum, rather than what Calman recommends? Cameron will not want break up of UK on his watch so will have to do a deal if yes vote is a possibilty. I've heard it said that Salmond has always always favored the 'gradualist' route to Independence. However, will there actually be a referendum now given SLAB no longer support it?
334

Mikey,

03/11/2008 17:09:19
Labour wants your vote!
The party of London wants your vote!
The party that tries to destabilise the Scottish economy wants your vote!
The party of backhanders and brown envelopes wants your vote!
The party of the braindead wants your vote!
The former socialist and now Thatcherite party wants your vote!
The party of war criminals wants your vote!
The party that is terified of an independent Scotland wants your vote!
The party of the bosses wants your vote!
The party of lying spinners wants your vote!

Just say NO!! Vote for any party that supports independence and kick out these crooks once and for all!
335

Queen D,

Glasgow 03/11/2008 17:16:47
Bet is on at William Hills, not the same one as first tried but another, with no problem whatsoever!
Odds are poor but I don't care!
336

Pleistoanax ,

03/11/2008 17:17:50
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/214a8c82-a8e4-11dd-a19a-000077b07658.html



In an illuminating policy paper, the economists Willem Buiter and Anne Sibert* say Iceland is only an extreme case of a more general phenomenon – of a small country with its own currency, and banking sectors too large to be bailed out by national authorities. Others are Denmark, Sweden and Switzerland. The UK is larger and also enjoys – say professors Buiter and Sibert – “minor-league legacy reserve currency” status. But some of the arguments apply to the UK as well. I would expect a renewed debate about eurozone membership to surface in the UK as well, as the country’s 15-year long credit-crazed economic binge unwinds. I will address the issue of future UK euro membership in a separate column.
337

Queen D,

Glasgow 03/11/2008 17:18:01
The first time I tried to post this I got that thoroughly revolting obscenity by way of rejection.
338

Alan B,

03/11/2008 17:25:24
#336 The Tin Man

I have asked a few times what you think the constitutional setup should be. Not sure why you keep avoiding that question.

I did not go into detail about other countries and the economy as I have done so many times before and my post tend to be long as they are.

But the economic argument as i see it is:
1)scotland has performed poorly absolutely with less that 2% growth
2)scotland has performed worse that the uk for decades. In the last decade while scotland has grown at 2.2% the uk has grown at 2.8%.

The unionist party argument for a long while is that is becuase we are a wee country and cannot exepect to do aswell as the bigger ones. However

And the group of small north western european countries (about 6 of them if i remember correctly) have grown at 3.6%.

3)moreover Luxembourg, Norway, Ireland, Switzerland, Iceland, Netherlands,Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland , Belgium
have all higher gdp per capita ppp than the UK, Gernmany, France and Italy.

What that shows is for some reason the smaller western european countries have done better (i am obviously not including the poorer eastern european countries or the poor med ones).

What we should seriously be asking is why. Unionist parties in their denial, should instead have been seeing why and seeing how the uk could be reformed to ensure that scotland could have tried to match this economic performance within the uk.


As for policies. That is about trying to niche scotland within the global economy. Reacting quickly to global economic competition and opportunities. Kicking out governments when they fail us until we find something that works for scotland.

Think about the tory years. In the early 90s there was a recession that hit the south. The tories were voted out and never recovered from that. However the south were only to happy to vote in the tories despite recessions and massive unemployment in the north of Britain.

That is why democratic accountabilit
339

Alan B,

03/11/2008 17:26:11
...

That is why democratic accountability matters.

Management of change needs is best done where the people support the government making that change. Change fails when the people reject the managers of change.

As to specific policies. I would like scotland to join the euro. Sterling i think is damaging to the scottish economy. Interest rates tend to suffocate scottish economic growth.

The 3 choices are:
1)scottish currency: best fit monetary policy. But is exposed to currency fluxations with both the euro zone and sterling.
2)sterling: too high interest rates over a prolonged period suffocates scotland growth. interest rates are too effected by the high growing south of england.

As Eddie George the governor of bank of england at the time said a few yrs ago, unemployment in the north is a price worth paying to control inflation in the south.

The problme is interest rates are a blunt instrument and if the government is not willing to deal with the north south divide then we will always have a bad monetary policy.

Also has detrimental effect of currency fluxations with the single market euro zone.

3)euro: euro rates are much more inline with scotland economic needs as then tend over a prolonged period to be lower than sterling largely due to the housing markets.

It will also encourage investment wanting to be based within the euro zone. However will have the disadvantage of currency fluxations with sterling. It would be best if the whole uk would join but that is not going to happen for political reasons and is not in the south of englands economic benefit.


I would also support a competitve business tax regime. That would mean cutting corporation tax. The snp target of 20% is a good start but still trails Irelands 12.5%.

If we had been independent in the 80s then we would have been better doing what ireland did and have a separate corporation tax for manufacturing. They had a 10% one. Better a low corporation tax on industry to t
340

Alan B,

03/11/2008 17:26:54
...
Better a low corporation tax on industry to try to compete than letting it all go to the wall thatcher style.

There is also things like tax breaks for films. Ireland got the filming of rob roy and braveheart for tax reasons. We need to compete.

I would look at flight taxes as scotland needs to encourage direct flights and a good transport infrastructure. Artificially inflating the cost of flights was hardling in scotlands wider economic interest.

I have already mentioned i personally would like a more restrictive takeover regime and hence controlling competition policy is important.

But at the end of the day it is about trying something and changing it if it does not work.

It is also about avoid damaging policies that come from westminster. Miras for instance was very damaging to scotland. Artificially inflating the cost of credit and the value of the pound.

Another thing about the uk union is perception. The uk media portray the economy is good if england is doing well as the size means that england dominates uk stats. This means if the uk booms then the media says how well the economy is doing even if scotland is struggling. Many people think Brown was good for this reason. Forgetting that Browns record was to plunge scotland into a deep manufacturing recession after taking over. And then plunging us into a full scale recession a few yrs later (2001/2002).

It is amzing the number of people you will talk to who are politically literate but are blissfully unaware of the recessions scotland have suffered under labour. Their perceptions made up by the uk media.

It is only by knowing your problems and voting out failed government that we will succeed.
341

HEN BROON 15,

03/11/2008 17:29:51
#374: How do you manage to keep your moniker? I just can't see past this separatist belief system that's come to dominate my sad little existence for many years and that's why I'm on version 15 of my moniker: my posts are like Mr Toad's mad ride and the unionist lackeys at the Hootsman just can't stomach it LOL
342

arc of insolvency,

03/11/2008 17:31:05
#374 Hen Broon the SNP deserve you, you represent the lack of quality they do.
343

arc of insolvency,

03/11/2008 17:35:57
Alan B I respect your posts, I don't agre with them, but I respect them your representing you cause respectfully unlike many SNP supporters who merely embaress their party and cause with petty posts. Would love to reply to you in full Alan, but I just don't have the time!

A VOTE FOR THE SNP IS A VOTE FOR THE SNP, NOT SCOTLAND.
344

Alan B,

03/11/2008 17:39:17
Tin Man

"The 'upheaval' involves the splitting-up and / or sharing arrangements for a large amount of State trappings and mechanisms"

Can you give examples beyond the ones I have mentioned fiscal, monetary (currency), and defence?


"Why not give Edinburgh and Aberdeen more autonomy? They would prosper unencumbered by the less advantaged areas."

A few things.
1)my argument is scotland is disadvantaged by the uk union. So by giving an underperforming area more power to release its potential has little in common with you example. Which is about richer areas not helping poor areas. If scotland was doing very well economically within the union then you example would have some relevence.

2)Once scotland is independent i think it will be worthwhile looking into the best structure for an independent scotland. ie the relationship between the central parialment and the regions within scotland.

I think there are different democractic models that could be explored.

I personally would like:
1)referendums attached to elections like in the US. Giving people a direct say in the outcome of issues. Rather than perpetrating the view political parties know best.
2)would like to investigate the idea of directly elected majors for scottish cities like london. Having a greater glasgow major and the same for edinburgh may be better than having alot of councillors who are known to few. It would help move local politics out of the realm of political parties. ie ken got voted in as an independent. The leaders are who the public choose rather than who a party chooses.

3)while i am not convinced about it we could also explore a scottish federal structure based on the old regional councils by devolving powers to the msps of that area.

Having independence atleast lets us explore the possibilities.
345

,

03/11/2008 17:43:03
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346

,

03/11/2008 17:43:26
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347

Truely English,

03/11/2008 17:49:19
What a very sad day it will be if a British party does not win this election. We have a shared history, education and political system, culture and language and have fought many battles on too many fronts to mention here over the past 300 plus years.

Scotland is very much part of the Union of equals in the UK and though there may be some setbacks from time to time, the British spirit will always win through.
348

,

03/11/2008 17:51:46
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349

The Dark Side,

03/11/2008 17:55:46
#386: thanks for your feedback on Viva Victria.
350

brownlie,

03/11/2008 18:06:08
I cannot believe that my innocous posting of Victoria's confusion regarding the role of a head-waiter was censored in view of the vitriol in her last paragraph at #310.
351

,

03/11/2008 18:14:32
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352

Hen Broon 7,

03/11/2008 18:20:28
Gosh - You know that I am the ugly, unacceptable face of the SNP! LOL! ALBA GU BRATH!

I bet most of you think I'm actually a member of the Labour Party hired to make "cyber nats" look like unreasonable people. SAOR ALBA....etc.

Yours Sincerely,

Dr Bill Reynolds,
Cleverer than You
Natland
353

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 03/11/2008 18:22:27
This is just a post to delay the ticking clock which bumps you off your login.
354

brownlie,

03/11/2008 18:23:30
391 Col. Blimp

lol. Careful, colonel, you'll be censored as well or is it only other ranks that fall foul of the red pen.
355

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 03/11/2008 18:24:43
You log in, then make a post then read another page and a few comments - and before you know it you are timed out and have to login again. Most annoying. Bit like the biased journalism.
356

brownlie,

03/11/2008 18:24:50
392

Come out of the closet, Paisley Pete, we know it's you.
357

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 03/11/2008 18:28:40
384, truely. The SNP is a British party by your definition.
358

Miss H,

03/11/2008 18:31:15
367 I have never understood that argument. It is patently false. The SNP does not wish to give the powers currently controlled by Westminster to the European Parliament. We wish to give them to the Scottish Parliament. The balance of power between national and EU government would remain as it is. But national government would be centred in Edinburgh not London.
359

Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 18:38:55
398 Miss H

Nonsense, my dear. The SNP are Unionists with a chip on both shoulder and a victim mentality. They are exactly the type of snivelling wet blankets that could never pass for a Brit.

Knowing they can never personally compare to high British standards they reject their heritage and seek to set up a new union with cheese eating surrender monkies and the cowardly Irish. Two types of equally snivelling creatures with whom they can feel more at home.

As was said above, British spirit will shine through in the end. I can't imagine a Scotland where snivelling wretches are the majority stakeholders.
360

Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 18:39:09
400 for the Union
361

Miss H,

03/11/2008 18:41:31
358 We cannot do anything about either at present.

The Lisbon Treaty - main issue for the SNP is that there should be a referendum. As with the constitution the red line issue for the SNP is giving the EU exclusive competence over fishing.

My personal opinion is that the CFP as we have known it and loved it is in its death throes already. A lot more people than the SNP support a return to national control.

Also in light of economic circumstances EU membership is almost bound to start to look more attractive to Iceland and probably Norway as well. Fishing would be the red line for them as well so it could be that events will take care of themselves.

Other than fishing the Treaty is OK. Remember that Neil MacCormick was on the body that drew it up and kept the party fully briefed on it to the extent that we were all sent a copy of the draft constitution to read. Must admit I did not quite manage it...
362

,

03/11/2008 18:44:29
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363

Hen Broon 7,

03/11/2008 18:44:32
Hussar for the Union - Union for Ever!
364

Truely English,

03/11/2008 18:53:31
397
You do have a good point there as they do use the British language, English in all their work and campaigns which is an essential part of being British.

Good point; I will have to refect on your thoughts.

Thank you.
365

septic peptic,

moray 03/11/2008 18:59:39
A survey has proved it at last, if you vote SNP your a thicko!!!!
Labour can laugh all the way to the bank at this. Nothing in the bank tho' thanks to clever labour.
366

HEN BROON 15,

03/11/2008 19:03:24
Scientology is the only major religion to emerge in the 20th century. A bit like the cult of Scottish nationalism really...Glenrothes, you ain't seen nothing yet if you've seen enough Nationalists to last several life times.

It's time! ABU DU GRAIDH
367

An Beal Bacht,

03/11/2008 19:13:33
To the British Empire Loyalists and their Fakie Trolls may I say"

Ww will - We will - Rock You!

Glenrothes is ours.

Goodbye Mr Brown.
368

Nikostratos,,

03/11/2008 19:20:05
#398 MISS H

The reality is Political power resides with the E.U And the S.N.P position is rather than be a devolved Government from Westminster and thence the E.U.

The S.N.P wish to be a devolved Government of the E.U there is no balance of power the E.U is Supreme.

The only difference is instead of Dancing a Westminster jig for the E.U We will dance a Holyrood jig for the E.U.
369

An Beal Bacht,

03/11/2008 19:21:06
To the British Empire Loyalists and their Fakie Trolls may I say"

We will - We will - Rock You!

Glenrothes is ours.

Goodbye Mr Brown.
370

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/11/2008 19:24:30
I can sense the bitterness among the Labour supporters! So i think we should ask them the best way i which to deal with their predicted loss in Glenrothes when the Fifers tell the to shove it (right next to the unionist PMs consituency).

1. Scotlsman 'THIS WAS NOT A VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE'

2. Labour 'SNP ARE A PROTEST VOTE AND NOTHING MORE'

3. Labour 'WE DIDN'T MANAGE TO GET OUR MESSAGE ACROSS AS EFFECTIVELY AS THE SNP'

4. Scotsman 'THE SNP'S SLICK CAMPAIGN BEARS FRUIT'

5. Labour 'THE MESSAGE IS THAT THEY WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO LISTEN MORE CLOSELY TO THEIR CONCERNS AND WE ARE TAKING THEIR CONCERN ON BOARD'

6. Labour 'THE VAST MAJORITY OF SCOTS WANT TO REMAIN PART OF THE UNION'

7. AND THIS I PREDICT TO BE THE BIGGIE 'THE WAY BROWN HAS DEALT WITH THE WORLD FINANCIAL CRISIS HAS YET TO FILTER THROUGH TO THE ORDINARY MAN ON THE STREET'

Just a few, others welcome!
371

An Beal Bacht,

03/11/2008 19:24:56
Scotland's membership in the EU is a separate issue from independence. I fully expect that Scots will have a referendum on that issue once independence has been achieved. Something they will never get while shackled to the UK.
372

Viva Victoria ,

03/11/2008 19:25:10
412 One speals bile

Did you hear Alex Salmond today highlighting that the result from this bi-election will have no constitutional relevance?

Even those that are proud to be British and embarassed by snivelling wet blankets like yourself dislike Labour intensely.
373

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 03/11/2008 19:25:38
I see the voting IQ is meant to be the latest opinion poll (talking of which?)

Doh. I was clever enougn to be able to see my 11+ IQ result on my first day at senior school. It was 147 and I voted SNP last time around.
374

An Beal Bacht,

03/11/2008 19:25:45
Scotland's membership in the EU is a separate issue from independence. I fully expect that Scots will have a referendum on that issue once independence has been achieved. Something they will never get while shackled to the UK.
375

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/11/2008 19:29:28
411 Nico#

But at least Scotlan with a massive say in European fishing will not be represented by 'Ben Bradshaw'. We will have a Scottish minister getting the best deal for Scotland and not using it as a bargaining chip for dairy farmers in Essex!
376

An Beal Bacht,

03/11/2008 19:33:15
415 - Viva Victoria , 03/11/2008 19:25:10

Sniveling Wet Blanket? You cut me to the quick. How can I ever post on these boards again. Ah'm that afronted so Ah am.


Har har har - try posting a coherent thought or idea. If my triumphalism offends you - well and good.

377

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 03/11/2008 19:34:08
Well then, Mr Nicostratos@411, we've danced the UK jig - lets try the EU one. Are you too scared to try it out?

If you are, let me remind you that the EU jig you are afraid of is the same jig we are already dancing.

Independence from Westminster will make it more like a John Paul Jones.
378

Fairfife,

Fife 03/11/2008 19:42:13
Looks as if all those vocal ex-pats had better head home to vote, as I see the latest poll has a Labour lead at 26.5% to SNP'S 23%!!
Why if SNP are doing such a good job are so many of you SNP ex-pats away from "our" fair shores?, could it be that absence makes the heart grow fonder, and actually if you were here the mist might clear?
Just an observation!!
379

An Beal Bacht,

03/11/2008 19:44:49
421Fairfife, Fife 03/11/2008 19:42:13

Why does labour need to bus activists in from England? Just an observation.
380

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/11/2008 19:46:32