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Founding father of US 'will inspire independence fight'

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Published Date: 02 April 2008
ALEX Salmond yesterday invoked the words of Thomas Jefferson when he told a US audience that Scotland had the right to self-governance.
In a Scotland Week speech at the University of Virginia, the First Minister used the founding father's work to promote a referendum on independence for Scotland.

In his second keynote speech of the week he said: "Scotland, sooner rather than late
r, is entitled to have the right to choose our constitutional future.

"That is a guiding principle for the debate on Scotland's future – a national conversation involving all the people of Scotland.

"And it is the words of Thomas Jefferson that will inspire us: 'We are a people capable of self-government, and worthy of it'."

Speaking at the university in Charlottesville, which was founded by Jefferson in 1819, he said: "Tartan Day was inaugurated ten years ago because the Senate recognised the influence of Scotland's Declaration of Arbroath on America's Declaration of Independence.

"However, the connecting theme is not just clarion calls for liberty and independence, but the recognition of the sovereignty of the people first suggested in European history in the Arbroath Declaration and taken to its logical conclusion by Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence.

"I call on politicians on all sides of the debate to recognise the sovereignty of the people.

"This is the basis on which the United States first asserted its right to self-government. And it is the guiding principle for the debate on Scotland's future – a national conversation involving all the people of Scotland."

He added: "When the people of Scotland consider their place in the world and debate our constitutional future, the proper means to exercise this sovereignty is through a referendum.

"Thomas Jefferson wrote that 'every nation has a right to govern itself internally under what forms it pleases, and to change these forms at its own will'."

A delegation of Scottish ministers are in the US to mark Tartan Day and Scotland Week, which was known as Tartan Week prior to a rebranding exercise aimed at making the event more meaningful to Americans.

Before making his speech yesterday, Mr Salmond visited the home of Jefferson – Monticello, the only residence in the US on the United Nations World Heritage List – where he presented a copy of the Declaration of Arbroath to Dr Tim Garson, the provost of the University of Virginia.

Today, the First Minister is due to make his third and final keynote speech of the week when he addresses the National Geographic Society in Washington on energy.

Mr Salmond is also due to attend a Tartan Day reception at Capitol Hill in Washington DC.

The First Minster will then host the Tartan Day tenth anniversary dinner at the Library of Congress with Linda Fabiani, the culture minister .

Miss Fabiani will tour the Smithsonian Centre and attend the Scottish Business Networking reception at the Carnegie Institute.

Meanwhile, Jim Mather, the enterprise minister, will take part in a number of business meetings in Houston.





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 April 2008 9:39 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish independence
 
1

Angus Ogg,

01/04/2008 22:45:28
"Thomas Jefferson wrote that 'every nation has a right to govern itself internally under what forms it pleases, and to change these forms at its own will'."

Fine words.

So when do we, the people get the chance to vote?

Why do the Conservatives, the Liberals, and the Labour Party refuse to let the peopl vote on this?
2

Highland Mighty,

01/04/2008 23:58:25
Proof, as if it were needed, that Salmond is seriously starting to lose the plot!

You can just picture the American listeners saying to each other, "Isn't Gordon Brown Scottish? Wasn't Blair Scottish?"

Why can't he get it into his thick head that it isn't London stopping Scotland from becoming independent...IT'S WE THE PEOPLE! THREE-QUARTERS OF US DO NOT WANT TO BE INDEPENDENT!

3

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 00:12:28
"That is a guiding principle for the debate on Scotland's future – a national conversation involving all the people of Scotland."

That will be the same national conversation that less than 0.01% of us have contributed to, would it?

"However, the connecting theme is not just clarion calls for liberty and independence, but the recognition of the sovereignty of the people first suggested in European history in the Arbroath Declaration and taken to its logical conclusion by Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence."

Yes, the soveriegnty of the PEOPLE. Not you, Salmond. THE PEOPLE. US.

We just do not want your independence and we certainly don't want to feed your overblown ego or your legacy complex.

We have listened to you for nearly a year now, trying so very hard to make us all angry with the UK with your pathetic and banal tales of Norwegian chessmen, curry chefs, bank notes, border towns (and the list goes on) and we totally ignored you.

For independence
Mar 07 - 28%
Jan 08 - 27% - DOWN 1%

For staying in the UK
Mar 07 - 51%
Jan 08 - 57% - UP 6%!!
4

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 02/04/2008 00:13:11
Maybe not HM..but cant you even agree that the SG should get the money for our prisons?
5

monkey man,

02/04/2008 00:15:30
Little tubby Salmond away on a Brigadoon Beano to the USA....Scotland's Shame, indeed.!

A failed Westminster politician in charge of a toytown " parliament" that his own country doesn't even recognise as legitimate, yet he's embarrassingly yet again trying to convince the Yanks otherwise. Dear oh dear. lol

6

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 02/04/2008 00:18:16
And your comments on our great leader are a bit harsh.
He is more of a statesman than any liebour (sorry) ALL liebour politicions put together.
More done under the SNP in 8 months than liebour did in 8 years.
7

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/04/2008 00:19:37
#2 Highland Mighty

You really are full of it aren't you?

Can you please post one quote, link or reference showing Alex Salmond suggest that London is stopping Scotland becoming Independent? Yes, Westminister will distort the thruth or withhold information about Scotland's position in the union but you are putting words in Alex's mouth.

Secondly I can guarantee you that 95% of Americans would think Brown is English and 99.9% would think Blair is English.

However you already know both these things - you are a troll
8

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 00:19:59
Shall I also list the truly pathetic participation figures in the heavily publicised online petitions (less than 0.001% of Scotland has signed the biggest one), the heavily publicised White Paper (only 0.5% of Scotland has bothered to read it), the very latest poll that showed that 76% supported staying in the UK compared to 23% against and also the various.......nah, forget it!

What a joke! LOL!
9

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 00:23:26
7. You can "guarantee" that, could you? Mmm?

Shows what a waste of time and money this 'Scotland Week' is then, doesn't it.
10

My Hamster Ate Freddie Starr,

02/04/2008 00:25:31
Find a life, people!

Intensive studies have shown that this site knows how to "churn a list".

HTML saved.
11

The Strategist,

02/04/2008 00:28:06
HM you're a twirp.. The Americans will understand exactly what Alex Salmond is saying because the USA is a nation that strongly believes in itself, is enterprising and dynamic.

You on the other hand represent the "oh we cannae do that" attitude which has been dragging this country backwards for decades.

12

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 00:28:15
3
Highland Mighty;
"We have listened to you for nearly a year now, trying so very hard to make us all angry with the UK with your pathetic and banal tales of Norwegian chessmen, curry chefs, bank notes, border towns (and the list goes on) and we totally ignored you."

No you didn't.You are talking about it now.
13

Angus Ogg,

02/04/2008 00:28:25
#3 High M.

Calm down a bit, you are worrying a lot of us that you will have an infarction !!!

Given your figures, and to quote president Jefferson... 'every nation has a right to govern itself internally under what forms it pleases, and to change these forms at its own will'

Then why can't we have a vote. Why is Labour preventing a vote?

Please can we have a vote and be done with it?

Thankyou.
14

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 00:28:28
11. Oh no, he's saved the page!

NOW we're in trouble!
15

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/04/2008 00:29:15
HM

Prove the veracity of your statement about Alex blaming London.

How would Americans mistakingly believeing Gordon Brown to be English lessen the effect of Scotland Week

Why the inverted commas around 'Scotland Week'?

You are an odious charectar.

Are you Scottish?
16

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 00:33:07
5
monkey man

I hope you get great pleasure out of these.

http://www.germes-online.com/direct/dbimage/50211010/Tube_Union_Nuts.jpg
17

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 00:34:02
12. I'm not one of those saying how terrible Scotland is right now, am I.

I'm not one of those perpetually talking the country down as "a failure", a "land of cowards" who "desperately need to be run by a colonial power", am I.

No, that would be the nationalists doing that, wouldn't it.

Go and give yourself one.
18

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 00:35:30
16. You are actually asking me to show Salmond blaming London?

I don't have that long.
19

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 00:39:22
19
Why? School in the morning?

Surely it should be easy to post a few quotes?

20

Colkitto,

River Clyde 02/04/2008 00:40:34
I love it when the unionists declare that the majority of Scotland don't want independence.
But are s**t scared of having a referendum. Even knowing they will win it !
It don't make sense at all....Perhaps they know they won't win it.. I wonder...??
21

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 00:40:56
There we have it, people.

The nats are denying it is London stopping Scotland from becoming independent.

So, it must be the people then.

Damn that pesky democracy.
22

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 00:45:05
22
The screams of tortured logic...
23

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 02/04/2008 00:47:28
HM.
0.00% of people having a say on your prefered constitution.
24

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 02/04/2008 00:49:58
HM...How much does the Hootsmon pay per post?
You surely have enough by now for your labotamy!
25

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 02/04/2008 00:50:14
HM...How much does the Hootsmon pay per post?
You surely have enough by now for your labotamy!
26

Cyber Nat,

02/04/2008 00:51:56
Highland Mighty,01/04/2008 23:58:25

"IT'S WE THE PEOPLE!"

You are more than one person????

"THREE-QUARTERS OF US DO NOT WANT TO BE INDEPENDENT!"

You want to be dependent?

How unusual.
27

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/04/2008 00:53:31
Altaterra Megatrix.

Go to bed AM2, you've had a long shift.

It's been a good day for supporters of the SG, hasn't it?
28

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 00:55:45
26
Alas no.

Perhaps a severe talking to?

With handcuffs and balaclavas?
29

Cyber Nat,

02/04/2008 00:57:50
Highland Mighty,02/04/2008 00:12:28

"That will be the same national conversation that less than 0.01% of US have contributed to, would it?"

They're that collective term again. How many of you are using the Highland Mighty log in?


"Yes, the soveriegnty of the PEOPLE. Not you, Salmond. THE PEOPLE. *US*."

There it is again.

"*WE* just do not want your independence and *WE* certainly don't want to feed your overblown ego or your legacy complex."

WE again. Come on. Is it two of you? Three? A menage et quatre?

"*WE* have listened to you for nearly a year now, trying so very hard to make us all angry with the UK with your pathetic and banal tales of Norwegian chessmen, curry chefs, bank notes, border towns (and the list goes on) and *WE* totally ignored you."

Five? Six? Please tell.

-----------------

For independence
Mar 07 - 28%
Jan 08 - 27% - DOWN 1%

For staying in the UK
Mar 07 - 51%
Jan 08 - 57% - UP 6%!!

I love unsoyrced polls. They're so Zimbabwe and in at the moment.
30

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta ...smell the burn. 02/04/2008 00:59:07
Alex Salmond said, on his boon-doggle tour in the US:

That is a guiding principle for the debate on Scotland's future – a national conversation involving all the people of Scotland.

"And it is the words of Thomas Jefferson that will inspire us: 'We are a people capable of self-government, and worthy of it'."Hey dudes.
------------------------------------------
Hey Dudes,
The more I read about Ur Leader Alex Salmond, the more I feel he is similar to Barack Hussein Obama.

Here in the US we call that 'Smoke and Mirrors".

Don't U SNP fanatics understand, that while the majority of Scots voters, do not want to break with the UK . U cannot have an Independent Scotland.

Every pole taken, show that the vast majority of Scots votes, favor staying within the UK . And for good reasons .

In the global economy of 2008, BIG is BETTER and BIG is SAFER on ever front.

As for Salmond's "national conversation, involving all the people of Scotland" ,that is pure political rhetoric, with no substance.

Still, in every society, there is the minority who get conned by the political rhetoric based on doomed policies.

In 2000, the minority of the US voters, were conned by G W Bush, and it took the US Supreme Court to make the final call, on who would be the President of the USA.

I doubt very much that the majority of Scots voters will buy into Alex Salmonds bull sh*t in 2008.

Unless they want to join the 3rd world brigade.

Alex Salmond and the SNP, need to prove themselves by growing the Scottish economy . Until they do that, its all political chatter, which is worthless.

It has no monitory value, it puts no food on the table, it creates no new jobs . ts just talk.

Dudes,
As I have often said: Its all about money.

Look at the Oil companies ,the Banks, the Insurance Co's. making $ billions in profits.

They have one thing in common they are BIG very BIG.

Look at the world power brokers. the USA , Japan, EU, China, India, Russia, t
31

,

02/04/2008 01:00:17
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32

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta ...smell the burn. 02/04/2008 01:02:36

#33 contd:
they have one thing in common They are BIG .

But U SNP fanatics, want to be a tiny and insignificant player, wallowing in dead-and-gone historical events..

WOW what a refreshing concept for guaranteed poverty for the Scots people.

Happy Haggis day

GC
33

Cyber Nat,

02/04/2008 01:05:56
"they have one thing in common They are BIG"

Like China and India.

You're point being?

"But U SNP fanatics, want to be a tiny and insignificant player, wallowing in dead-and-gone historical events.."

I missed Trafalgar Day. I was out the country.

"Happy Haggis day"

Did you write "Cringe is what we do" for Wendy?
34

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 01:06:21
33
Galcan
t? I like a wee cup now and again; but a World power broker!?
Are you thinking of shrooms?
t made with shrooms?
35

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 01:07:38
Wow! CyberNat is really putting me in my place!

He's clearly never heard of the term "We, the people" which is quite astonishing given the document it comes from.

And unsourced polls? They're both YouGov.

Here's one for you: "Scotland pays the entire cost of Trident" - Source? Proof?

Yet more evidence that the SNP depend wholly and totally on gullibility and ignorance for their support.
36

,

02/04/2008 01:08:58
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37

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 01:09:14
37. The nats and His All-Encompassing Greatness, Salmond?
38

,

02/04/2008 01:09:58
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39

,

02/04/2008 01:10:59
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40

,

02/04/2008 01:12:54
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41

Cyber Nat,

02/04/2008 01:13:33
"Wow! CyberNat is really putting me in my place!"

Who are you refering that to?

"He's clearly never heard of the term "We, the people" which is quite astonishing given the document it comes from."

Again, who are you refering that to?

And what's that got to do with your collective comments rather than as an individual
"And unsourced polls? They're both YouGov."

What? No dates? Samples?

"Here's one for you: "Scotland pays the entire cost of Trident" - Source? Proof?"

As strawmen arguments go that's pretty poor.

"Yet more evidence that the SNP depend wholly and totally on gullibility and ignorance for their support."

What evidence? It's your comment. You provide it.
42

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 01:13:43
38/39/41/43/44. And the nats disintegrate once again into incomprehensible gibberish yet again (it just gets earlier every day).
43

,

02/04/2008 01:13:44
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44

,

02/04/2008 01:14:54
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45

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 01:15:26
37
Good point Col.Would you also agree that a lifestyle of merely ingesting psilocybin mushrooms, is not the best way to make your point.




Dude.
46

,

02/04/2008 01:15:28
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47

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 01:16:19
They're already dated, you frickin idiot! Look at the original post! Look at your response!!

Go find the polls for yourself!

LOL!!!

Make that gullibility, ignorance AND STUPIDITY.
48

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 01:21:19
And I include Galactic Cannibal in that statement,HM.

49

Cyber Nat,

02/04/2008 01:21:22
If they are dated which one from March are you refering to then?

See you haven't answered any of my questions yet. Nor explained where this odd Trident comment from that you somehow ascribe to me.

Anyway, maybe you can answer this for a start. Why do you want to be dependent?

"frickin idiot ... gullibility, ignorance AND STUPIDITY."

Ah abuse as well as no answers. Love it. Keep it up.
50

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 02/04/2008 01:22:16
High and Mighty

Aren't we full of anger and indignation these early hours. What to get up so tight about? Independence has no chance of happening according to you. But I guess what you don't like is the publicity it's getting in the great land of our best pals eh? Guess that's what happens when a third of the Scottish voters vote in an effective minority government, and when the opposition parties have no talent or charisma and can't get their act together. What did you expect?

By the way, when you quote polls, do give their source at the time so that they can be checked. Here's a new one to check out. Although UK-based, there are some interesting figures on page 16....
http://www.comres.co.uk/resources/7/Political%20Polls/Political%20Poll%20Mar%2008.pdf
51

Lianachan,

Highlands 02/04/2008 01:22:43
#22 I'm curious - what's democratic about not allowing a referedum, about actually preventing people from expressing their views one way or the other?
52

Cyber Nat,

02/04/2008 01:24:16
"Haggis, neeps 'n' tatties for me!" I don't know who you think you are annoying but you are certainly bugging me with the gash you're playing at.
53

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 01:25:56
57
Perhaps a troll?

It has been known.
54

Senga Jean,

Scotland 02/04/2008 01:26:02
#52 Highland Muddy you are getting offa excited. Self loathing sellouts of their country should remain calm or their heads will explode. This is a well known fact. BTW which Highland do you take your name from. Cannot be Scotland. If you doubt any of this let a VOTE by the people guide you through your darkness. INDEPENDENCE.. you know it makes sense.
55

Cyber Nat,

02/04/2008 01:30:21
Andrew BOD,Aberdeen/shire 02/04/2008 01:22:16

"High and Mighty...Independence has no chance of happening according to you."

That should be "you all" as H&M is a "we" or an "us".

But a good point nonetheless. Why do they spend so much time on something they say isn't going to happen and has no support?

I don't think Cowdenbeath are going to win the SPL so I don't bother arguing that they aren't.

It rather betrays the interest in the debate and the possibilities that they engage in it.

Maybe the loss of dependency is the factor. But I haven't had an answer on that yet.
56

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 01:39:53
60
Perhaps if Cowdenbeath were bought by a Eastern European...businessman...
57

,

02/04/2008 01:47:13
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,

02/04/2008 01:47:30
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59

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 02/04/2008 01:47:57
Conan 61

"Perhaps if Cowdenbeath were bought by a Eastern European...businessman..."

...they might end up like Gretna or £39 million pound in debt.
60

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/04/2008 01:50:31
Highland Mighty

Got any quotes showing Alex 'blaming London' for anything yet?

You must have hundreds surely?

If you can't substantiate what you say what value are your posts?

61

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 02/04/2008 01:51:01
Haggis Me lad, you ruined the page, and you know your,
'Blanks' will be all removed by the moderator, by 11am today!

I know this edition of the Scotsman News, may be the most boring yet,
But you needn't represent them!
62

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 01:51:04
54. So, do we agree that Scotland obviously does not pay for all of Trident then? I think it's a very odd claim too. Actually, no. Not odd, no. Insane. Yes, it's an insane claim.

55. A poll of 73 people? What an accurate picture that paints. That's not even a bus-load, is it.
63

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 01:56:05
62. Independence support has (yet again) been posted already. See post 3 and also Salmond's interview with the BBC last weekend when he admitted "support was still only a quarter of the population".

So, a "quarter of the population" it is. Salmond himself concedes that fact. Oh dear!

(Dougie Douglas = Ayrshire Scot? Both have the same perpetual ability to put everyone around them into a coma.)
64

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 02/04/2008 01:59:24
I suppose the 'bus-load' is from Dundee as well?

Anyway, what about my main point? What's to get so uptight about?
65

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 02/04/2008 02:00:36
Z'zzzzzzzzzzzzz
66

Cyber Nat,

02/04/2008 02:03:58
"54. So, do we agree that Scotland obviously does not pay for all of Trident then?"

You're (all?) using "we" again.

But anyway, why are you addressing a point to me about something I never mentioned and ignoring all my questions?

Here's links to them. The questions end with the thing that looks like a tadpool doing a poo.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics/Founding-father-of-US-39will.3936607.jp?CommentPage=1&CommentPageLength=1000#2665003

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics/Founding-father-of-US-39will.3936607.jp?CommentPage=1&CommentPageLength=1000#2665015

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics/Founding-father-of-US-39will.3936607.jp?CommentPage=1&CommentPageLength=1000#2665032

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics/Founding-father-of-US-39will.3936607.jp?CommentPage=1&CommentPageLength=1000#2665056
67

Edward,

02/04/2008 02:04:05
ah Highland Chicken
too scared of trusting the people to decide there own future
Come on Highland chicken, explain why you dont want Scotland to have a referendum and please dont include any percentages of who supports what, that is becoming very boring I want to hear a realistic arguement as to why the country does not deserve to choose for itself or is it that you just dont have an arguement and prefer to trott out the same old same old from Labour party HQ
68

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 02:05:39
67
Re 54
The payment would be made by the people around the Trident base, when ***they*** were nuked.
69

Cyber Nat,

02/04/2008 02:06:53
"62. Independence support has (yet again) been posted already. See post 3 and also Salmond's interview with the BBC last weekend when he admitted "support was still only a quarter of the population".

So, a "quarter of the population" it is. Salmond himself concedes that fact. Oh dear!"

And your point is?

That it's always been a quarter? That 1 in 4 of the population is not substantial? That there's no support for a referendum? That Cowdenbeath can win the SPL?
70

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 02:12:12
74
Dinnae be daft.Cowdenbeath WILL win the SPL.

Eventually.
71

Guga II,

Rockall 02/04/2008 02:16:00
#3 High as a Kite Numpty. You are obviously not Scottish, but you are obviously a troll.
72

,

02/04/2008 02:16:24
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73

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 02/04/2008 02:27:00
Och, I'm fed up waiting Highland Mighty. After your verbal diahorrea at the start of the thread, you failed to answer my simple question. Picking and choosing what you're going to answer is becoming oh so common with you. Dougie Douglas is right: AM2 at least gives you a meaningful response.

Guidnicht.
74

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 02:36:43
77
Dougie.
He hasn't responded to a single post of mine.
AM2 did, if you were polite ...
75

montecristo,

02/04/2008 02:59:18
FREEDOM!


I am an Englishman of Welsh descent, who has been during told his entire life(61) that he is British. I never minded this as we were all, Scottish,Welsh & N.Irish part of the union that made up Britian. Now, Scotland has almost gained its separation from from England, a monarchial arrangement made union.

I lived and worked in Scotland for many years and love the people and their culture, my brother is married to a scottish lass. I believe Scotland is showing England the way. Labour is putting the squeeze on Scotland to make it conform to labours wishes. Labour sees scotland as "traitorous" for choosing the SNP over labour. Good for Scotland!

I personally would like to see a new union of equal partners, a united Britian of four different free nations with a common defence and foreign policy and all else up to the individual states. But before any of us can get anywhere near this position we must first throw out labour and its communistic policies of control .

We in the south need and English national party like the SNP that can work in collusion with the SNP for a common goal. Labour fragmented the union for its own selfish ends, divide and conquerer. I am sick of seeing ant-scottish, anti-welsh, anti-Irish and anti-English comments. We are all in the same boat and we get on very well except for the politicians who would divide us. So Scotland, show us the way, put the boot into labour and we in the south, will follow your lead.

William Wallace may not have actually cried "Freedom", but his spirit certainly did, and the same sort of tyrant (new labour), has his foot on all our throats.


76

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02/04/2008 03:21:32
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77

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 02/04/2008 03:36:50
#80

An excellent post. There is no need for a central government oriented strusture that served the interests of empire but is less relevant in this multi lateral world in which we live.
78

Virginian,

USA 02/04/2008 03:46:20
Article Quote:Alex Salmond, "Tartan Day was inaugurated ten years ago because the [U.S.]Senate recognized the influence of Scotland's Declaration of Arbroath on America's Declaration of Independence."

Answer:

The Declaration of Arbroath of 1320 was a plea to the Roman Catholic Pope in Rome to decide in favor of Scotland over England in a quarrel.

This petition was drawn up by Bernard de Linton who was the Abbot of Arbroath and the Chancellor of Scotland. It was also signed by 45 barons and 8 earls of Scotland.

The 13 English colonies found their rights as Englishmen in the "Magna Carta" of 1215 when English barons made King John sign the Great Charter that declared the English church as free from the Pope in Rome.

Thomas Jefferson paraphrased the "Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence of May 20, 1775, drawn up by a group of Scotch-Irish Presbyterians in Mecklenburg, North Carolina.

Thomas Jefferson did not come up with the Declaration of Independence on his own. After the deliberations of the Continental Congress in Philadelphia, Jefferson was given the task of putting the issues on paper. He undoubtedly has access to the Mecklenburg Declaration because it was sent to the Continental Congress.

Alex Salmond will have a hard time convincing any American who knows his history that an appeal to the Pope and not the Scottish and Scotch-Irish Presbyterians had anything to do with the Declaration of Independence or the American Revolutionary War.

SNP was co-founded by a convert Roman Catholic Jacobite by the name of Compton Mackenzie, who just happened to be born in England.

Mackenzie discovered his Stuart family roots and became involved in the idea of restoring the Stuarts to the Scottish throne.

Perhaps Alex has in mind to be King Alexander the Great of Scotland.

What did Salmond think that he was going to accomplish by making such an absurd speech at UVA? He has no idea why we declared our independence.

The English colonies dec
79

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 02/04/2008 04:18:42
#83

While the Magna Carta placed limits on the power of Kings the Declaration of Arbroath affirmed that sovereignty was in the hands of the people and not the monarch.

"Yet if he should give up what he has begun,
and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert
ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make
some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as but a hundred of us remain
alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor
riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives
up but with life itself."

Since both documents where signed hundreds of years before Martin Luther your silly sectarian argument holds no water.
80

James,

Boston 02/04/2008 04:32:07
Virginian.
Speak to Newt Gingrich, he'll bring you up to speed.

Also a learned man woulde surely be aware that the signatories to the Declaration of Indepandence were neither exclusively Scotch/Irish, nor Presbyterian.

In fact a diverse group(in alphabetical order)....Anglican,Congregationalist,Deist,Episcopal,Presbyterian,Roman Catholic and Unitarian.

A certain intellectual Mr Witherspoon, was involved in the drafting and is felt he drew inspiration from his homeland, rather than from some disgruntled sectarianist folks from Mecklenburg.

But lets not let that get in the way of your anti-Catholic ravings.
81

Virginian,

USA 02/04/2008 05:11:48
#84 Traquir, Alba

Quote: "Try and read your own Government's resolutions before spouting such crap"

Answer: This is not the first ridiculous resolution put out by the "history-challenged" US Congress.

Traquir, why don't you Google "The Declaration of Arbroath 1320" or go to the web site at www.constitution.org/scot/arbroath.htm?

Then you can show us where Thomas Jefferson, of Welsh descent, used that document when he wrote down the Declaration of Independence.

My Presbyterian ancestors knew Thomas Jefferson and were with George Washington throughout the Revolutionary War. Several were delegates to the Virginia Convention to Ratify the US Constitution.

John Knox, the founder of Presbyterian Church of Scotland had far more to do with the founding of the United States than did a bunch of debauched Jacobites.

The only thing the Stuarts had to do with founding the United States was to persecute the Scottish Presbyterians and cause them to go to America for religious and civil freedom.

The American Revolution was termed the Presbyterian Revolution by the British who knew what they were saying.

It appears that you are a latter-day Jacobite trying to ride the Presbyterian coattails to "freedom" from England and to take Scotland into "bondage" to the EU.

Why don't you read some real history instead of relying on some US Government Resolution that few Americans have even heard about?

Do you believe everything you read that agrees with your preconceived fancies?





82

Gregorf,

Edinburgh 02/04/2008 05:47:52
Civil war it is
83

Beth Boyle,

NY one of the 13 original Colonies. 02/04/2008 05:49:30
Well said Virginian #87. As a matter of fact at the time of the American Revolution there were few democratic models to inspire but one was the Presbyterian Church and the other was the 6 nations of the Iroquois but had an impact on Jefferson. This is all so interesting. What goes round comes round and so it goes we enter the debate once more on self rule.
84

donald,

glasgow 02/04/2008 06:09:50
We have our Benedict Arnold's too.
85

Virginian,

USA 02/04/2008 06:15:48
#85 Kampung Highlander, Jakarta
Quote: "While the Magna Carta placed limits on the power of Kings the Declaration of Arbroath affirmed that sovereignty was in the hands of the people and not the monarch."

Answer: The Declaration of Arbroath was merely a petition to the Pope. It did not matter what it "affirmed" because the Pope was not able to grant the petition.

The Magna Carta not only placed limits on the power of kings but also stated that the Pope in Rome was not over the church in England.

The Magna Carta states:
"1. In the first place we have conceded to God, and by this our present charter confirmed for us and our heirs for ever that the English church shall be free, and shall have her rights entire, and her liberties inviolate;(www.magnacartaplus.org/magnacarta/Accessed 2/1/2008)"

The Barons of Runnymede assured that all freeborn Englishmen would have their civil and religious rights in a document that stands today.

The Declaration of Arbroath was just wishful thinking and accomplished nothing of value.

86

glassbenmhor,

02/04/2008 06:32:50
All you Unionistas know fine well in your deepest hearts that you can hear evensong and see the last rays of sunset cast,and deny it not .
The real thing is you all think it is Salmond and the SNP that was the last attack,but the historical light is here within these posts,Labour Labour and Labour again there for christ sake is your enemy to the Union and not just in the last 10 years.They have milked,raped,distorted,knived,swisted at every turn the separate identities of Great Britain to suit themselves at every throw of the political dice.Blame not the Conservatives or Westminster or the Lords.
The Labour Party is the Scum that you are shouting about and SHOULD be the target of your bile.
87

glassbenmhor,

02/04/2008 06:35:41
Hey Virginian,wee bit of Baptismal Fire and Brimstone there eh!
Keep your religious crap over there it will not be tolerated here I can assure you.
88

Virginian,

USA 02/04/2008 06:50:45
#91 Traquir, Alba

Quote: "Enjoy and appreciate your Scottish Heritage."

Answer: No encouragement is needed to appreciate my Scotch/Irish and Scottish Presbyterian ancestors' considerable contribution to the founding of the United States.

That's why opportunistic politicians who like to take credit where credit is not due deserve to be set straight.

89

,

02/04/2008 06:54:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
90

,

02/04/2008 07:04:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
91

Rankbadyin,

Palmerston North 02/04/2008 07:08:12
... statesman will visit a an independent Scotland and provide some homilies regarding the wisdom of old political nobodies
92

Thoroughly Bored,

02/04/2008 07:11:10
Scotland chose to form a Union with England democratically and of its own free will.

So tell me? Why does Alex Salmond pretend Scotland has never/or does not have this right?

The reality is, Scotland does not agree with the whinging idiot and the will of the Scottish people is to govern ourselves as part of the United Kingdom.



93

Virginian,

USA 02/04/2008 07:14:12
#95. glassbenmhor
Quote: "Hey Virginian, wee bit of Baptismal Fire and Brimstone there eh! Keep your religious crap over there it will not be tolerated here I can assure you."

Answer: Perhaps it's my religious ideas that account for the fact that the English colonies were able to fight and win our independence from England in 1776 as you so desperately desire for Scotland.

How many years has it been since Scotland has been a part of Great Britain?

There seems to be a certain Scotsman named Alex Salmond that is over here talking about how Thomas Jefferson used the idea from a 1320 Scots' groveling plea to a Pope to get England off their backs.

Maybe the SNP ought to become Presbyterian if they really want independence. Problem is that no sensible Presbyterian would want to break up the UK just to go into a far worse situation in the EU.

94

The Jannie,

Out there and watching 02/04/2008 07:32:59
I get the feeling that this whole debate is being urged along by those who might wish to be big fish in a little pond.
95

Gregorf,

Edinburgh 02/04/2008 07:36:02
I fail to see the gains in a Union that delivers poverty, ill health, low standard of living, obesity, most violent society in the developed world.

presumably most of us have failed to see something?
96

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 07:36:48
What I do not understand about the Declaration of Arbroath is why it was never practised in Scotland at any stage. The words it contains are, indeed, fine and stirring. But when you look at Scotland's history before 1707 you will find there was never a time when the Scottish people were sovereign. They were given no say in whether the country of Scotland should have been created in the first place and they were never given a say in how it was run.

In fact, it is hard to escape the conclusion that the Declaration of Arbroath is little more than the desperate plea of one set of aristocrats to be left in peace by another set of aristocrats.
97

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 07:37:59
#99 - Who would you like to seekilled in the name of creating an independent Scotland?
98

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 07:39:05
#106 - Were the people of Scotland ever consulted about the creation of Scotland? A simple yes or no will suffice
99

eric,

02/04/2008 07:41:18
% here and there Dont reflect Whats happening in street,Most folk would vote for Independence,
100

Thoroughly Bored,

02/04/2008 07:42:42
106 Bob Christie

You're living in the past and as such cannot be taken seriously.

Scotland chose devolution and does not wants the Union to continue. So it has been fully ratified in common law in our actions by NEVER voting in the SNP with such gusto as to allow you to hijack our country.

The union is fully ratified, fully accepted, fully enjoyed. Like Jefferson said we can change at any time like we did with devolution.

Alex Slamond should be disciplined from pretending otherwise. He must have broken some diplomacy law with the latest grandtanding and make believe outrage.
101

john z,

edinburgh 02/04/2008 07:48:02
The people of Scotland have NEVER been consulted on the union with England.

Pro-unionist posters can write here endlessly about opinion polls (and we all know how accurate they are, right?), but all it needs is a referendum.

I still cannot understand what Labour, LibDems and the tories are so afraid of.

Why are the people of Scotland being denied the freedom to decide?? It is our democratic right.

Time for people to wise up, the genie is out of the bottle. Trying to stop the momentum towards independence for Scotland, is like trying to stop the Berlin wall coming down. And just think, all our lives, we were told that would NEVER happen.
102

john z,

edinburgh 02/04/2008 07:54:14
Number 110 thoroughly bored,

The only person to have broken convention is Gordon Broon, on his recent jaunt to the Scottish Labour conference. He spent quite some time denouncing the democratically elected government of Scotland.

How dare Gordon Brown criticise Alex Salmond the First minister of Scotland. Gordon Brown got his job as prime minister wihout having to be elected. Remember, people voted for Blair as prime minister, not Brown. Brown has NEVER stood for elelction in England as prime minister. We all know he'll be out, next time around.

Gordon Brown should be disciplined for his outrageous un- democratic comments criticising the Scottish Government.
103

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 07:57:10
#111 - The people of Scotland were never given a say in the creation of Scotland itself. But in every single national election ever held in our country since the introduciton of universal suffrage, the people of Scotland have never come close to giving a majority of their votes to parties that support the break-up of the Union. That is a simple fact.

So while we have never had a referendum, we have been given plenty of chances to express whether we felt independence was a priority for our country and time after time we have said no.

The Scots are free, the scots are sovereign and the Scots will get what they want when the vote for it. That's because the Scots live in a democracy and they have the power to change what they do not like. Nationalists do themselves no favours when they pretend otherwise.
104

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 07:57:59
#112 - We live in a democracy.
105

john z,

edinburgh 02/04/2008 08:09:50
Number 112,

You and everyone else knows, that the reason the SNP were rarely voted for to the Westminster elections is because everyone in Scotland knew it wouldn't count.

There are around 64 MP's from Scotland out of a total of over six hundred in Westminster. The people could have elected the SNP to every single seat in Scotland, and it would have had no effect whatsoever.

Now, in a Scottish parliament, the people have made their democratic choice, and elected a SNP government that stands up for Scotland. Unlike the previous minority Labour goverment, who just did what their masters in London told them to.

The reality is, Labour have at last lost their stranglehold over Scotland, and they are whining like pigs, because they just can't accept they lost.
106

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 08:17:03
#116 - And what is your evidence for claiming that the only reason Scots did not vote SNP was because they knew "it would have no effect whatsoever"? It's this kind of rubbish that makes so many of us wary of the nationalist message. A tendency to distort history, to massage away inconvenient truths and to promise jam tomorrow is no way to persuade the majority of us who do not support separation to change our minds.
107

Truely English,

02/04/2008 08:19:17
How is it that those who want to split Scotland from the Union rarely if ever praise Scotland in any way its culture etc. All they are interested in is money and bashing the English and the various minorities who live in Scotland.

What does this tell us?
108

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 08:23:38
#117 - Supporting Scottish independence is an honourable position to hold and there is a case to be made for independence, albeit one that I do not agre with. But what is not honourable is to question the motives, the patriotism and the moral character of those who do not agree with such a break-up of the Union; neither is it honourable to distort the past. Unfortunately, too many nationalists - certanly on message boards such as these - do exactly that. And in the end it is their message that suffers.
109

Scotland to prosper...,

02/04/2008 08:24:58
The unionist’s who chant daily about how the people of Scotland do not want Independence are missing one major factor in their argument, attitudes change.

The mass majority of the population do not hold such hardline views as some of the posters on here. I’d put enough faith in the Scottish electorate to be able to decide whether or not Independence is a viable option based on the SNP’s ability to Govern.

As the SNP are going from strength to strength with regards to their performance in Government, it’s difficult to see the benefits of going back to what we had. Being in power is allowing the SNP to deliver on their policies and this is what the Scottish people will notice.

History is all fine and well and the future is a great thing to discuss but the fact is, here and now the SNP are succeeding, they remain true to the their Independence goal but realise that this policy alone will not run a Government.

And all this while only operating in a minority Government. It begs the question “How would have Labour coped in a minority Government considering how badly they did in a majority one!”
110

Reckless,

Corrupt EU 02/04/2008 08:25:48
What's with politicians today. They love to be compared to founding fathers. First B'liar, now Alex Salmon.

That SNP man is a real ar5e. Imagine the colonies demanding independence from England, but still wanting to remain in an EU style dictatorship! Besides, the founding fathers were predominantly of English descent.

Two quotes that are applicable today:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

PATRIOT ACT, Civil Contiongencies act, Hitler's Enabling act...

"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." - Thomas Jefferson

Resist Neo Labour, serve God.

111

Virginian,

USA 02/04/2008 08:30:02
#86 James, Boston
Quote: "A certain intellectual Mr. Witherspoon was involved in the drafting and is felt he drew inspiration from his homeland, rather than from some disgruntled sectarianist folks from Mecklenburg."

"But let's not let that get in the way of your anti-Catholic ravings."

Answer: James, so glad you mentioned Rev. John Witherspoon of Edinburgh, Scotland, who was the Presbyterian President of Princeton College during the American Revolution.

Witherspoon was highly involved in the deliberations of the Continental Congress. He had been the college professor of the later President James Madison of Virginia and many other prominent American patriots.

As far as Witherspoon and the Mecklenburg Declaration framers...they were all Presbyterian, so obviously Witherspoon would have agreed with what they wrote.

You cannot seem to get the connection that Alex Salmond is saying that the Declaration of Arbroath influenced Thomas Jefferson's wording of the Declaration of Independence.

The fact is that Jefferson probably never heard of the Declaration of Arbroath but he did have a copy of the Mecklenburg Declaration.

But let's not let that get in the way of your anti-Presbyterian ravings.
112

Stepford Nat..,

02/04/2008 08:31:21
I go all moist when I read article like this - Isn't he great?
(Wendy is rubbish)

www.snp.org - u know u want 2
113

thinking,

Scotland 02/04/2008 08:38:46
How much is this junket costing us?
There is no comparison.
The American government was the uniting of different nationalities who had gone to a new land and didn't want to be ruled from thousands of miles over the seas.
It took a civil war to unite them and other states joined them later (Alaska for one) to enlarge their borders, not reduce them. Each State is larger than the UK as a whole. Each State has some fiscal autonomy but all come under the same government, defence, police etc.
114

eric,

02/04/2008 08:42:42
Most of my family voted labour all their lives.But all in Scotland dumped labour for SNP and Glad they did.My family in England are also going to dump labour for Tory at Nxt election,Labour have messed up big time,And they are getting it in neck from english work mates etc ,Some of the abuse is awful,When in rome!
115

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 02/04/2008 08:46:45
#117

It tells us that those such as yourself who constantly find the need to distort and misrepresent the pro-independence position must be extremely insecure of their own beliefs.

You obviously do not thing that it is sufficient merely to state the case against independence in a rational and objective manner, but feel as if you require to reinforce that case by smearing those who disagree with you with lies, distortions and misrepresentations.

Standard Liebour techniques I suppose.
116

Nikostratos,

02/04/2008 08:49:35
Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state. Thomas Jefferson

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -

-- Thomas Jefferson

The American people do not take kindly to politicians such Salmond who on one hand criticise their armed forces and on the other ask to trade with their nation.

He is not a popular person in the U.S.A with his constant carping over the Iraq war.....Best he hadn't gone.

117

K McDonald,

glasgow 02/04/2008 08:52:56
Ironic that our anti-American dear leader should campaign for regime change UK in the US.

What does the SNP's foreign policy masters, Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood, make of the dear leaders sucking up to the great satan?

I think we the people should be told.


118

glassbenmhor,

02/04/2008 08:53:35
Virginian,
There is nothing more distasteful than mixing Politics with Religion ,you'd better watch out, lest you become 'stuck between a rock and a hard place'
Although I fear you are an active supporter of the 'Fifth and present Crusade'
119

Bobh,

st augustine 02/04/2008 08:54:09
GalacticCannibal, I cannot think of a more insulting thing to call an honest man than "Dude". My apologies to the folks of Scotland, the boy obviously knows no better!
120

Scotland to prosper...,

02/04/2008 08:58:42
#128 Niko

Yes "patriots", last time I checked, the Americans were not patriotic towards Iraq. Why then should their blood be spilled to remove the tyrant?

And the argument about Americans not liking Salmond for his views over the Iraq war, I don't remember them refusing to trade with the many other country leaders that condemned their actions.

A pretty amateur attempt Niko.
121

Nikostratos,

02/04/2008 09:03:16
#133

Nonetheless true..............And Salmond does not lead this country The Prime minister of the United Kingdom Gordon Brown does............
122

Truely English,

02/04/2008 09:03:34
132
Are you looking for thanks regarding the help Scottish students are giving Briton worldwide in helping to create a homegenious British culture throughout the world.
123

Scotland to prosper...,

02/04/2008 09:10:43
#134

Salmond is the First minister and as such has responsibility towards his people with regards to the economy of Scotland, I'd rather him there than Gordon.

Brown is busy watching the rats jump from the sinking ship at the Labour conference.

And Salmond has never critised their armed forces, only the lambs that lead them.
124

Alfie the OK,

Occupied England. 02/04/2008 09:11:40
Ahhhh, Thomas Jefferson, that crusader for freedom - NOT! How many African slaves did he have to keep his estate ticking over - 50, 60, 100?

What happened to THEIR 'pursuit of happiness and the American way'?

What a one-eyed view of liberty, the Yanks have. If they had any moral compass whatsoever, they'd be getting hold of Gordon Brown's auld reekies, giving them a bit of a twist and demanding that the people of England get some national democracy - or else there'll be trouble.... But of course, they don't..... so they won't, will they?

125

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 09:13:04
This is an outrage. How dare Scottish polticians leave Scotland and talk about things in the world! The rest of the world is a reserved matter for Westminster and Scots have no business thinking about it, having opinions on it and certainly not flying off and talking about Scotland in foreign parts! That is Westminster's job and they do it great!
126

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 09:14:05
137. Great point, especially as Britain didn't start the slave trade.
127

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 09:15:19
135, Surely you mean British Students? The use of the word Scottish is very out of date, and its very use is just tries intended to provoke fights.
128

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 09:18:08
#127 - Examples please. Otherwise all you have posted is a rant.
129

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 09:19:30
127. Rubbish. And there were WMD in Iraq ready at 45 minutes, they are just very very small.
130

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 09:20:09
~138 - Och we are so oppressed, aren't we?
131

Doh,

02/04/2008 09:20:21


Why is that a nation, a people, who freely vote at every general election to preserve the union to the mutal benefit of both partners are traduced by the likes of Alex Salmond.

The people have spoken.
We choose to be Scottish and British.

132

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 09:22:45
144. Quite right. And as things never change the SNP have had their chance. This is a new rule of British democracy - while every other party gets to puts its case in elections, change, lose, win, the SNP have only one such chance, and they have had it. And their tea.
133

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 09:23:29
143. Who is oppressed? What are you talking about? As Scotland is not a country, how can it be oppressed? Another raving lunatic clearly.
134

NBJT,

North Berwick 02/04/2008 09:25:55
Well done Alex!

Do not let the English controlled media 'grind you down'. Little Englanders the lot of them.

Independence will come, it is our right.
135

JimC,

Kilmarnock 02/04/2008 09:28:05
#8 "truly pathetic participation figures" What planet are you on mate. Can you produce the figures of Labour's consultation with Scots in regard to their little working group?
136

,

02/04/2008 09:34:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
137

NBJT,

North Berwick 02/04/2008 09:34:49
*145.

OK then we will all agree with your stupid remarks and start voting for unionist parties!!!

No chance. There is an ever increasing amount of the Scottish population who are now backing the SNP. Indeed their own party membership is now almost as many as the Labour party whose numbers continue to fall on a daily basis.

There are 3 groups of voters in Scotland:

1. Those that want independence now. (those people, like me will never change our minds)
2. Voters who would relish a independent Scotland but will not vote for them because of the rediculous scare mongering put out by the English controlled press. (they will change as the benefits of a Scottish indepedent country eventually get through)
3. Unionists who will never change. (a minority in Scotland who you will usually either find wear Rangers strips and tattoos or are totally full of self interest/English business people)
138

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 09:35:57
148. Just because Labour's constitutional review has 3 people so far in it, has been dismissed by the Labour Scottish Office Minister as McChatter, been downgraded by the PM to a working group, and just because the National Conversation has had 350,000 hits, this does not mean the first is less popular with the public. Clearly you have not seasonally adjusted the figures, backdated them, compared them to Ireland, and applied a Westminster re-weighting. When you have you will see the Unionist constitutional commission is setting the heather alight!
139

McX,

02/04/2008 09:40:45
In spite of all the sniping above, how nice to see a Scottish representative not swathe himself in plaid, Overdose on shorty or reminisce with a tear in his een about his granny's heilan hame.

140

Scotland to prosper...,

02/04/2008 09:41:44
#149

If Salmond is xenophobic, why is he arguing against capping immigration? Pathetic comment.

Give one example of him appealing exclusivly to "pure blood Scots".

And your comment with regards to Scottish nationilsm being identical to Nazism, I didn't think people like you existed anymore.


141

Arfur,

02/04/2008 09:43:07
Highland Mighty - I am completly fed up of the utter nonsence you constantly spew up on this website.

'Proof, as if it were needed, that Salmond is seriously starting to lose the plot!' - what? cause he is making a speech to american people about independance? first rule of presenting - make it meaningful to the audience.

I mean this drivel that you constantly write while sticking up for tin pot party who are cheats and will not allow the Scottish people make a decision for Scotland and did f**k all for Scotland all the years that they were in power - you must seriously be here on a wind up, or you are as thick as you come accross as or your an olive short of a picnic.

'Why can't he get it into his thick head that it isn't London stopping Scotland from becoming independent...IT'S WE THE PEOPLE!' - as far as i am aware i (a person of Scotland) have not had any such vote. We (the people) have voted on one thing and that was to get the headless chicken brigade out and SNP in and every day the gain more support with the way they have changed Scotland (at long last) for the good.

Sit down shut up and think about what you did!
142

NBJT,

North Berwick 02/04/2008 09:43:47
*149

What utter nonsense.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My father fought in WW2 and both my grandfathers in WW1.

They all stated that they were first and foremost Scots having to live under a union flag. They would have still fought had Scotland been independent as these were wars for freedom NOT for Queen and Country (whatever that means).

It is disgraceful that once again a unionist uses Germany as a example of nationalism. However, this is not surprising as you must obviously be desperate and running out of arguments.

The SNP have and always and will conduct business through the ballot box and through democracy. They are allowed their opinions and as they ARE in Gvt are allowed to express them.

Scotland has only been part of the union for a short period of history and it is now inevitable that it will once again become independent. You may not like this but please use some common sense when replying!!!
143

Doh,

02/04/2008 09:58:58


Alex says,

"I call on politicians on all sides of the debate to recognise the sovereignty of the people."

I do, so the SNP should recognise the will of Scottish people expressed in every general election for Scotland to remain part of the union.

The people have spoken.
144

ordinaryperson,

Greenock 02/04/2008 10:00:53
Are all those Unionist posters saying that every vote casted for a Unionist party is a vote for the Union? anymore than every vote for the SNP is a vote for Independence. The union was never ratified by the people. Earlier postings say that big is best. I would remind you that small countries like Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Ireland and Luxembourg have more of a say over our fishing than being part of the Big UK.
Sovereignty lies with the people and not with parliament and our so called head of state. They ignore the people once they get elected to parliament.
I want democracy for Scotland and that means to me that sovereignty lies with the people
145

AJ Fife,

02/04/2008 10:01:52
Mr Salmond continues to promote Scotland and it's people, and the Unionists are still no happy.

With everyday that passes since the historic 3rd of May 2007, these people underline their unpatriotic and anti-Scottish characters. Perhaps if we all took up Morris dancing, became residents of the county of Scotlandshire and regularly tongued the anus of the Westminster government, they would finally find contentment.

Personally, I think it would leave a very bad taste......
146

pwd,

Hawick 02/04/2008 10:06:05
*35
"It looks to me that Westminster doesn't want Scotland to be independent nor to have a devolved form of Government."

True, but then neither do the Scots so there is a happy consensus which only Nats fail to see - try any figures you like.
147

Publius,

London 02/04/2008 10:06:53
Thomas Jefferson and some of the nationalists on this board do have one thing in common. Jefferson wrote 'all mean are created equal' - by which he meant not women, not black people (he had slaves of his own), not native Americans, not loyalists (several hundred thousand of them) - or anyone else he didn't like.

Nationalists on this board assert the Scottish nation - by which they mean not unionists (the majority of Scots) or anyone else they disagree with.
148

pwd,

Hawick 02/04/2008 10:11:36
*156

A very large number of my relatives (including father and grandfathers) fought in the same wars (& others) and all of them fought as British and were very proud of it.
149

McX,

02/04/2008 10:16:18
Rather surprising the Hootsman haven't reported the 'World's Largest marine Energy Prize' or have I missed it?

Further details here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7325870.stm
150

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 10:23:34
#15 - The creation of the Kingdom of Scotland was never ratified by the people.

If Scts were so desprate for independence, if they wereclamouring for an end to the Union, they would vote for parties that seek to deliver this. The majority has never come close to doing this. Something that our FM failed to point out in his speech yesterday.
151

AJ Fife,

02/04/2008 10:24:44
pwd,

The Royal Family had members fighting on both sides during the World Wars - is that what makes them 'British'?

Everybody in the UK had family members fighting in both wars, but I bet they cursed their luck they were British!
152

uranus,

Devon 02/04/2008 10:24:56
#83 #118
I completely agree with Virginian,USA who talks sense quotinmg history. I also agree with Border Scot that SNP has not made a convincing case for independence, knowing it as one of its previous members, never will and hence it is very unlikely to achieve its goal of independence. Alex Salmond who given every opportunity criticised Americans for going in Iraq is not a popular person there. Americans of Scottish, Irish or welsh or any descent consider themselves as Americans first. They would know how Alex Salmond criticised their country's involvement. They may not like their President's forays in Iraq but they do not like a foreigner to criticise their President and his actions.

The usual nonsense that SNP members spew out is the reason why SNP failed to win a majority at Holyrood in 2007. I and many sensible Scots doubt they will in 2010. They are just a protest party and Alex Salmond who holds two jobs will go no where from here. He knows it and hence will not let go his Westminster job. That should tell a lot about him to his blind followers here. No one prevented Scots voting for SNP
to give them majority in Holyroodin 2007. Majority of Scots did not do it and they were not idiots. They are not convinced about independence and I doubt whether they will be in the next decade or two.
153

Stepford Nat..,

02/04/2008 10:27:17
156
"The SNP have and always and will conduct business through the ballot box and through democracy"
WE're also allowed use forums like this.
Alex is great, isn't he? neulaybour is rubbish.
www.snp.org go on go on go on go on go on
154

McX,

02/04/2008 10:33:00
#167 URANUS, what first attracted you to the SNP?
155

Ffion,

edinburgh 02/04/2008 10:42:07
Jefferson also defended the right to bear arms-do we also accept that everyone in Scotland should be allowed to run around armed? His argument was a sort of mutually assured destruction & the fact that the law abiding majority should not be penalised for the actions of a few outlaws.
156

walter,

02/04/2008 10:43:23
Members of the Scottish parliament were democratically voted to that position to represent those who voted for them.
They informed the people of their intentions when they were campaigning before the election.
Some of those standing informed the people that they intended to support a referendum on independence, others informed the people that they did not intend to support a referendum on independence.
47 MSPs who represent the largest party (and formed the government) the SNP, 2 MSPs who represent the Green party and 1 MSP who is affiliated to no party all support a referendum.
Those MSPs Labour with 46, Conservatives with 17 and the Lib/Dems with 16 seats do not support a referendum.
When the government puts it to parliament on whether to hold a referendum I would expect the result to be 50 for and 79 against.
Those who support 47 of the 50 MSPs who voted for a referendum cannot truly believe that it is undemocratic for those MSPs who have always said they were against a referendum voting against it.
What would be undemocratic is if the vote went any other way.

157

Xena - Warrior Princess,

02/04/2008 10:44:41
I am Scottish and very proud of the fact - but also British and I do not want independance. I would though really appreciate the right to vote in a referendum on this matter, and lay this to rest once and for all.
158

Doh,

02/04/2008 10:48:14

Just as New York, Texas and California choose to remain part of their Union.

Scotland chooses to remain part of our Union.

The people have spoken.

159

Mr Bootshine,

Las Vegas 02/04/2008 10:49:23
May Scotland reassert its dominion and finally shed its English parasite problem. The American states are a far cry from the ideals of Jefferson being not much less socialist (bound, not free, etc) as the English. May a Scottish spirit of resilient independence accelerate a similar awakening in the good ole USA.

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
--Thomas Jefferson
160

Mr Bootshine,

Las Vegas 02/04/2008 10:51:17
#173 red herring, total B.S.
161

shivago8,

livingston 02/04/2008 10:54:19
Well done Alex,keep reminding people that we are our own country,and that,s the way we want it.
300 years of union stagnation have done nothing for this country of ours.
We have a right to be our own nation again,because the present union has been bizarre wi the English continually thumbing there noses at us
HAGGIS,JOCK and KILTED MORONS NORTH OF THE BORDER HURTS.

BUT WE CAN STILL RISE NOW.
AND BE THE NATION AGAIN
THAT STOOD AGAINST HIM
PROUD EDWARDS ARMY
AND SENT HIM HOME AGAIN
TAE THINK AGAIN
162

European Scot,

02/04/2008 10:54:39
162 Publius

Only a referendum will determine how many Scots are Unionist.
In the meantime those of us who support the SNP, including many English and Asian people, will continue to help the movement towards Independence.
Racist connotations, and remarks about Nazis, are regularly used by some Unionists, to try and discredit the SNP. Witness one poster removed from here today with comments about the latter.
It is insulting basic intelligence to suggest that such extremist attitudes exist in a left of centre democratic party
The various polling figures quoted above suggest that only 25% of Scots support Independence. That looks like an overwhelming level of support for the Union.
So why does the Unionist alliance fear a referendum ?
They don't seem to have quite the same level of faith in these polls.
In the free World, the majority of human beings support the independence of their country.
In behavioural terms, it would be statistically abnormal to stand against the independence your country.
Are the people of Scotland really an exception ?
163

Nikostratos,

02/04/2008 10:57:32
#171


Quiet right we have recently had a 'Referendum' it was called the 2007 election...The pro union majority won the
'Nationalist' minority lost......
164

Alan B,

02/04/2008 10:57:56
#171 Walter "Those who support 47 of the 50 MSPs who voted for a referendum cannot truly believe that it is undemocratic for those MSPs who have always said they were against a referendum voting against it.
What would be undemocratic is if the vote went any other way."

That makes little sense. No-one is asking a unionist to support independence, they are only being asked to allow the people of scotland to choose the consitutional arrangements of scotland by way off a referendum.

Unionist say they have the support of the people for scotland to remain in the union but seem scared to ask the people.

The much more important issue, greater than the union or independence is democracy. That is what is being denied.

Labour held a referendum to ask the people for devolution and the sp. No question on independence was allowed at that time to find out what people truely wanted. We now have opinion polls consistently saying that people do not support the current devolution arrangements. The vast majority on multi question polls show that most poeple want substantially more powers for the sp.

The question is how to we allow the people of scotland to choose the constitutional arrangements we want not political parties doing deals and not allowing us to choose. Not allowing political parties to limit our choice.
165

walter,

02/04/2008 11:02:27
#106
" Scotland chose to form a Union with England democratically and of its own free will. "

Really? And when were the people of Scotland consulted?

What was democratic about the decision to enter a union with a foreign power (England) which was taken by a few aristocrats who had been bribed by the English Parliament?

Those in 1707 that sat in the Scottish parliament did so for a variety of reason, one reason they did not hold those seats was that the people had voted for them to be there.
Very undemocratic according to today's standards and system of those that sit in parliament.
Would you like to tell what country in 1707 had a parliament whose members held seats due to the people voting for them.
166

McX,

02/04/2008 11:07:01
#173 "Just as New York, Texas and California choose to remain part of their Union.
Scotland chooses to remain part of our Union.
The people have spoken."

DOH!,


Just as East Germany, Poland, the Ukraine, the Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Romania, Georgia, Uzbekistan, Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Belarus, Armenia, Kazahkstan,Tajikstan, Turkmenistan, Moldova, Kirghiztan and Tajikstan opted to leave the Soviet Union.

The People of Scotland are being denied the most simple right of being allowed to determine their own future by a referendum.

The people have been gagged.
167

uranus,

LONDON 02/04/2008 11:09:36
Scottish people spoke in 2007, just a year ago. Nothing prevents Salmond to bring the referendum for independence bill TODAY or his STV multi-choice bill in the Holyrood and challenge the unionist parties to oppose it. He is not doing it. He knows that if he did that he will lose the vote and his FMship. There will be no election until 3 years down the line, other parties will form a stable coalition government.

168

Conan the Librarian™,

02/04/2008 11:09:53
180
Walter
"Would you like to tell what country in 1707 had a parliament whose members held seats due to the people voting for them."

Certainly Walter. The Icelandic Althing.
169

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 11:13:26
Clearly SNP Central have decreed that as everything else has failed to increase support (or even stop it dropping), that the tactic now is to complain about not being allowed a referendum.

Not that there has been a single vote on a single referendum bill.

I still find it bizarre that Salmond actually thinks the Americans can and will do anything about helping Scotland be independent. Why would they? Why would they assist in breaking up their closest strategic partner? They need us to be as strong as poss in NATO, the same with the Security Council and they certainly need us stopping the EU from becoming a true single entity.

168. "....and also through a series of endless baseless claims that we are being oppressed by being denied our rights and freedoms."

The next poll should be out next month, let's see if the SNP's lead has dropped for the third consecutive time.
170

McX,

02/04/2008 11:15:18
#182 URANUS, I ask again, what first attracted you to the SNP?

BTW did you move from Devon to London this morning?
171

walter,

02/04/2008 11:15:56
#179
The government being a minority had to do deals with the Conservatives, Greens and Margo to get there budget passed.
Are you suggesting they should not have and held a referendum instead.
Are you suggesting they should not deal with the Lib/Dems the Greens and Margo to get the LIT passed.
Should they be holding referendums on all policies or should we leave it to the politicians that we voted into the parliament to vote on those policies since that is the reason we put them there.
172

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 02/04/2008 11:16:32
#178.



Why are you so afraid to let Scot's answer the YES/NO for Independence question?


Get of your knees.


Grow a spine.


Log of and go for a walk, get on a bus and go somewhere, this is only a forum on a corrupt unionist propaganda paper, it is utterly without credibility or meaning, and sliding further down the pan every day, like the union.

Alex Salmond can see the big picture. He has the talent and the intelligence to take Scotland to independence. No matter how much the cyber slaves on here beat their gums Scotland will be independent. Polls are just polls. They tell us zero.

The result last May was stunning, shock and awe, when you consider that the media in this nation is 99% unionist biased to come through all the lies and propaganda and win was awesome, your wittering and all the other trolls on here just confirm that.

You cannot spin or twist or wish it away the SNP are the Government of Scotland and you all told us it was not going to happen, as you now try and tell us that independence is not going to happen.

Look at Mugabe, even with all his resources, his military muscle, his destruction of votes and voters, his septic corrupt regime is finished, all corrupt regimes come to an end, all great dynasty's end up on their knees. Rule Brittania is over, get over your selves you poor unionist cringer's.


I am so happy, God bless Alex Salmond and Alba.


ALBA GU BRATH.
173

European Scot,

02/04/2008 11:18:39
178

" Quiet right we have recently had a 'Referendum' it was called the 2007 election...The pro union majority won the
'Nationalist' minority lost...... "

So perhaps you could give us some figures to show what proportion of Labour, Tory, and Lib-dem voters support the Union.
This could be difficult, because there are significant numbers of Independence supporters in each of them.
Only a referendum will give us an accurate figure.

By the way, since when have the right been quiet ?!
174

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 11:20:20
187. HURRAH!!

LOL!

(Do you have the same 'Book of Ridiculous Psychotic Rants' as Jackie Priest?)
175

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 11:22:11
Salmond isn't fat, he's just got hundreds of nats right up his behind.
176

Alan B,

02/04/2008 11:25:30
#186 Walter
"Are you suggesting they should not have and held a referendum instead.
Are you suggesting they should not deal with the Lib/Dems the Greens and Margo to get the LIT passed."

Again that makes little sense. It is constitutional matters that we are talking about putting to a referendum. Similar to what labour did for the scottish parliament. Similar to what was proposed by the unionist parties over EU matters.

I am not sure why u fail to understand the differences between constitutional matters and normal run of the mill policies.

"Should they be holding referendums on all policies or should we leave it to the politicians that we voted into the parliament to vote on those policies since that is the reason we put them there."

Personally i would like referendum questions on certain issues tagged on to elections like in the US. (Not the independence on i think that is too big). I think people are disenchanted with politics because of the political parties and the fact they can appear to some to be all the same on certain issues.

I think direct democracy is beneficial. The problem with parliamentary democracy is there for all to see. MPs are whipped to vote with the party far too often. Jobs offered for party loyalty. Dissent fround on. Althougth there are problems with US democracy (money driven) it good to seem democrats voting for republican motions etc and vice versa.

Too much of our politics is driven by corrupt parties (we can see how appalling the labour party have become) and not the will of the people.




177

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 11:26:30
188. That's been quoted a dozen times!

24% of SNP voters are against independence.
8% of all the other parties are pro-independence.

And I'll even source that - YouGov Jan 08.

And all these people saying polls are useless - Would that include the 'Salmond has 75% lead over Wendy' poll?
178

Forward not Back,

02/04/2008 11:26:47
What I love about these threads is the fact that the drones on whatever side complain that the media is biased. Hello - the paper exists to make money. The more hits on these pages (and posts, natch), the happier the newspaper.

So, The Hootsmon will never support a referendum. If the so-called Unionistas win (as they would do), what would the Nats on here do? Gas at a peep, they would retreat to lick their wounds. Less posts on here and less advertising revenue for the paper.

I'm sure the Hootsmon isn't happy that its sales are falling but I love that the posters on these blogs who crow about it don't see the irony of them supporting the Hootsmon's business.
179

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/04/2008 11:27:00
#178 Nikostratos

The election in May 07 was for the Scottish parliament. A referendum is a single issue vote, clearly the election was not a single issue vote - as you well know.

Again the question the unionists can't answer is why not have a referendum?, put it to bed. Something dosen't add up (apart from allowing the people to choose theri destiny - one way or another))

Highland Mighty

After a good nights sleep I see your propensity to dribble over the keyboard and subsesquently these boards in un-diminished!

Do you have one example of AS 'blaming London' - for anything yet?
180

Nikostratos,

02/04/2008 11:29:27
#188

Alex said the other day only 'about a quarter of scots support Independence'

What are you asking for rule by the 25%.........snp style democracy...
181

Angus Ogg,

02/04/2008 11:30:11
There is a certain American cerabrally challenged person that comes on the Scotsman Boards and rubbishes Alex Salmond and lectures us that we should have no choice.

Yet the self same American had a president that said, as quoted in the on-topic article above...

"Every nation has a right to govern itself internally under what forms it pleases, and to change these forms at its own will"

Is it not arrogance that the one American visiting our boards persistently to put down our elected governing Scottish party benefitted from this very American president's decision?

Or would that American prefer to still be a Colonial British Subject, rather than a US Citizen?

Stick that logic in what's left of your grey matter and study it.
182

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 11:42:32
#194 - All the parties made their position on a referendum clear before the 2007 vote. The SNP said they would deliver one, Labour, the LDs and the Tories said that they would oppose it. The Scottish people then decided who to vote for and gave most of their votes to parties that made it clear they would oppose a referendum. It's really not that hard to understand. If Scots had decided that a referendum on independence was their priority, they would have given the majorit of their votes to the SNP.
183

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 11:43:03
194. Go to bed, ex-pat nat.

Your claim that Salmond has not blamed London for anything was pathetically ridiculous the first time and it just gets worse every time you repeat it.
184

Mr Bootshine,

Las Vegas 02/04/2008 11:43:29
America: "land of the free home of the brave" ? sorry to inform you it's become more like "land of the meek home of the slaves"...

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
--Thomas Jefferson
185

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 02/04/2008 11:44:57
We must expect to hear the screeches of the unionist trolls become more shrill as Scottish confidence grows, Britishness shrinks and Independence draws nearer.

It won't be pretty but it won't be long drawn out either. The fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of Communism were both very quick when they came, so quick they took everyone by surprise.

Scottish Independence will come in a similar fashion and it currently looks like it will happen around the years 2010-2011.

You heard it hear first.

186

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 02/04/2008 11:46:12
By Kerry Gill, Scottish Political Editor



Scottish Daily Express readers have spoken: they want our country to become independent.

A telephone poll of readers has shown a remarkable turn around in public opinion with a clear majority calling for Scotland to free itself from the Union and become an independent country.

But equally significantly, they want to retain the Queen as head of state and for her to become Elizabeth, Queen of Scots.

A staggering 59 per cent voted "Yes" in our poll which asked "Is independence from the UK, but under one Monarch, the way forward for Scotland?"

It is an astonishing change in opinion from earlier this year when a majority of readers rejected independence.

The poll reflects other surveys which also indicate that First Minister Alex Salmond's flagship policy is becoming more and more popular with every week that passes.

Last night, Mr Salmond said: "This survey shows that the vast majority of Scottish Daily Express readers are in favour of the Scottish Government's policy for an independent Scotland with the Queen remaining head of state – symbolising our social union with England.

"The United Kingdom would become united kingdoms – a new 21st century relationship between Scotland and England, based on independence, equality and mutual respect.

"It is the second poll this week showing high levels of support for independence – reflecting the impressive ratings of the SNP in government.





"The trend is very clear, and shows that people are moving to the independence position as they see the success and credibility of the SNP in government.

"The National Conversation is leading the constitutional debate, and pulling the other parties in its wake."

Our poll follows a similar result for the SNP at the weekend when a Sunday newspaper found that 40 per cent of Scots backed independence, a rise of five points since the late summer.

The polls also show that the row over Donald Trump's golfing
187

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 02/04/2008 11:47:19
The polls also show that the row over Donald Trump's golfing complex in Aberdeenshire have done Mr Salmond and his administration no harm at all in the eyes of the public.

Our survey rounds off a highly successful period for Mr Salmond.

On Sunday, a YouGov poll showed that the SNP were ahead of Labour by one point in Scotland for a Westminster election.

The SNP's Business Convener Angus Robertson said: "This is yet another indication of the success of the SNP, combined with the hugely positive ratings of the Scottish Government.

"The Scottish YouGov poll conducted at the end of November gave the SNP a record 11 point lead over Labour for a Scottish Parliament election, and put us neck and neck with Labour for a Westminster poll – the party's strongest position since the fuel crisis 7 years ago.

"This new poll suggests that the SNP have now moved ahead of Labour for a UK General Election.

"Along with the System Three poll showing a surge in support for independence, it is clear that the trends are all going in the SNP's direction as we look forward to the New Year."


188

Alien from Manchester,

Manchester 02/04/2008 11:47:56
Just found out about this blog! Another Scot I am afraid! Interesting posts!

I should say that SNP's message is based on a single issue-Scotland independence. SNP in 2007 elections drove home this message very clearly. They manifesto was very clear. In 2007 people in Scotland spoke. That was indeed a referendum. SNP did not get the majority.

The reson why American was here is clear. Salmond was in America and his reference to Thomas Jefferson! He brought the link.

Salmond loves London and Westminster, and he keeps his Westminster job as an MP! It will be an insurance for him if he fails in 2010 to get the referendum bill passed in Scottish Parliament. I would not blame him. He needs peace of mind then away from Holyrood. What better place than London!!
189

European Scot,

02/04/2008 11:48:00
195 Nikostratos

"What are you asking for rule by the 25%.........snp style democracy..."

No, I'm not asking for rule by the 25%
I am asking for democracy SNP style... that's where 100% of the Scottish electorate get to vote in a referendum on the future of their country.
Is there really a problem with that ?
190

Gargamel,

02/04/2008 11:48:30
#187 Hen Broon: greetings, oh unacceptable face of nationalism! The reason we don’t want a referendum is that it would allow the SNP to go from strength to strength once they inevitably lose and free themselves of by far their most ridiculous policy. Also, no-one’s all that exercised about this (apart from bona fide fruitcakes such as your good self) and so there’s a good chance that any result could be distorted by a low turnout.
191

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 02/04/2008 11:49:07
Like I said unionist cringer's, it's all over and the fat lady has sung. Get a life. Must go catch you later, missing you already.


ALBA GU BRATH.
192

Alan B,

02/04/2008 11:50:50
#197 Border Scot

There is a fundamental problem with ur arguement. The point of a referendum is to allow the people to choose and not have a party political stitch up.

If we are just going go with the majority view of the parliament then there is not point in having a referendum on any issue. U simply let parliament choose every thing.

As such then independence would come about from a majority in the sp not a referendum. That is not a position i would support. It must be the people that choose. Constitutional issues are best decided by referendum.

We can clearly see the problem referendums cause parties when u look at the EU promised referendum that labour now has refused even though it had a manifesto commitment to do so. A government only has a referendum if it thinks it can win. That is not democracy.




193

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 02/04/2008 11:50:51
#205. You seem to be pretty "exercised," now time for medicine toddle of and see nurse then get those windaes licked, have a nice day.
194

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 02/04/2008 11:50:52
#205. You seem to be pretty "exercised," now time for medicine toddle of and see nurse then get those windaes licked, have a nice day.
195

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 11:51:46
#195 Stratosphere, good point. Clearly the SNP plans for a referendum of the Scottish people is a clear attempt to impose their will undemocratically.
196

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 11:52:26
209. How dare you. We unionists will lick only the windows that Westminster says need licking.
197

Jock MacSprog,

02/04/2008 11:52:54
hmmm, as old fatty Salmond was waxing lyrical about Thomas Jefferson and democracy etc, I wonder if he bothered to tell our American cousins about the real SNP and how they are Socialist, tax and spend, anti American lefties who 's first act of "independence" would be to join the EU and hand over the so called indepdence to another Anti american, left leaning bureaucracy ? Dont think so as they would have thrown him out of the hall
198

Mr Bootshine,

Las Vegas 02/04/2008 11:54:23
last comment fr M-Bootshine: #201 if y'all pull this off the last thing you want is one of their dam-ned queens or kings meddling in your affairs. Isn't that the ultimate source of the problems after all. Break it clean, you'll do yourselves and the rest of the world a great favor.
199

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 11:54:49
212. Great point. Clearly Britain is not anti-American and leftist by dint of its EU membership, but Scotland would be.
200

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 02/04/2008 11:56:13
oops


#203.. You see you said it, you are afraid of being a Scot, which is why you are in your imagination in Manchester, is that because they won last night?

Keep on trolling join the unionist cyber nuts it is meaning less poo.
201

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 11:56:54
212. I just thought more about your brilliant point. Its great - France and Sweden are independent and in the EU, but the stupid SNP think Scotland can be independent and in the EU - ridiculous!
202

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 02/04/2008 11:57:42
Reely must go fishing.
203

Alan B,

02/04/2008 11:59:40
#212 Jock MacSprog
"to tell our American cousins about the real SNP and how they are Socialist, tax and spend"

First socialist party i have heard that want to substantially cut corporation tax.

Also as socialism is about nationalisation and governtment running industry, what exactly have they said they would nationalise. Banks?

Or maybe u think they are socialist in the way the labour party are socialist. Brand themselves socialist and implement capitalist policies.

Social democratic more like.
204

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 12:02:20
200. Outstanding. Okay, let's dust of the state of play at the moment:

True, confidence is indeed growing:

From YouGov:
For independence
Mar 07 - 28%
Jan 08 - 27% (-1%)
For staying in the UK
Mar 07 - 51%
Jan 08 - 57% (+6%)

Latest poll (MRUK Mar 08):
For independence - 23%
For UK in various forms - 76%

Less than 0.01% have contributed to the heavily publicised National Conversation.

Less than 0.01% have signed the heavily publicised Scottish Convention online/worldwide petition.

Less than 0.5% have read the SNP's flagship 'White Paper on Independence' which is also available online throughout the world.

SNP's lead over Labour is also rapidly dropping.
YouGov Nov 07 - 11% ahead
YouGov Jan 08 - 9% ahead
MRUK Mar 08 - 7% ahead
At this rate Labour will be back in front by Christmas.

Aye, confidence is growing but not that of the nationalists.
205

Alan B,

02/04/2008 12:03:28
Union is Best: Why would scotland want to be independent in the EU? It is surely best to let England make our decisions for us, as they understand much better what our needs and problems are.
206

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:06:02
220. Exactly! At last, someone with some sense! Westminster clearly knows best, as it is bigger and posher than the Scottish parliament. It just confuses me why France and Spain can't see that too, and let Britain run their affairs for them better as well! No I think about, why does any country want to be independet in the EU?
207

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 12:06:55
212. I wonder if he also mentioned he is passionately against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. And was also against intervening in Kosovo.

That would really have gone down well.
208

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:07:38
#219. Great post. Just because every opinion poll shows a majority in favour of more powers for the Scottish parliament, does not mean anything!

And just because 3 opinion polls show the SNP ahead, that does not make the SNP the most popular party in Scotland!
209

Alien from Manchester,

Manchester 02/04/2008 12:08:20
#215 My, My, My...! Hold on! People see this ugly face of SNP and hence in the secrecy of the voting booth vote for the unionist parties. I know a few SNP members did not vote for SNP in 2007. There are more Scots outside Scotland who do not believe in Salmond and his SNP project than in Scotland. Salmond failed to tell his American audience that he is leading a socialist party which is often anti-Ameican, believes in massive public sector,wants to join EU which destroyed Scotland's fishing industry etc.. etc.. His reception would be wonderful then!!!
210

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/04/2008 12:08:53
Got any links yet HM?
211

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:09:13
222. Great point. No one who has a differing view on foreign policy should go the USA. The USA will not tolerate differing views, and has cut all ties with France and Germany because they opposed those wars as well, and the French President and German Chancellor are never allowed into the USA, and if they are they get treated very bad, and served cold tea. Great point.
212

Highland Mighty,

02/04/2008 12:10:05
219. I forgot to mention that all of that is AFTER 11 months of Salmond and his sheep trying so very hard to get us to resent the UK.

Agent Salmond is very much earning his salary!
213

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:11:24
224. That Salmond is sneaky. His stealth opposition to the Iraq war, which no one knew about, is almost as clandestine as his top secret plans for Scottish independence.

And damn right, the USA doesn't allow any politician in there who disagree with them, because they are not very democratic. And a good thing no USA politicians oppose the Iraq war.
214

Lock,

02/04/2008 12:12:02
Thomas Jefferson from the Declaration of Independence:

'We hold these truths to be self-evident,—that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; 2 that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.'

The follow up quiz question:

How many slaves did Jefferson have at Monticello?





215

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/04/2008 12:12:09
#197 Border Scot

Talk about being out of touch here in OZ!

I thought the election in May was for the Scottish Parliament.

Nobody told me that it was referendum on an Independence referendum.

My apologies.

216

Arfur,

02/04/2008 12:12:20
#221 Union is Best - Alan B is extracting the pee from you, clearly pointing out how thick you are.

#197 Border Scot - 'The Scottish people then decided who to vote for and gave most of their votes to parties that made it clear they would oppose a referendum.' - eh remind me who won that vote.
217

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:12:27
227. Great point. The SNP drive to improve services, by cutting presciption charges and freezing the council tax, has nothing at all to do with improving Scotland, it is all a cunning plan to annoy Westminster.
218

walter,

02/04/2008 12:12:43
#183
Close but not quite.

They represented their constituents in the government, but they were not elected to their position. The office was treated like a piece of property: it could be inherited, yes, but it could also be bought and sold, loaned out, or shared. Think of it less as a political office, and more like a franchise.

the Althing just wasn't an especially democratic institution, certainly not one along the modern, mundane American lines of "one person, one vote." The chieftains were not elected by their thingmen, nor were their votes (when they did vote) meant to represent the will of their constituents. Just because they were anti-king, doesn't mean the Icelanders were modern democrats.

www.dragonbear.com/althing.html
219

kimba,

02/04/2008 12:13:17
union is best.Stop the p--s take you nat troll.
220

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:15:10
231. Rubbish. Just because the SNP won the election does not make them the most popular party.
221

European Scot,

02/04/2008 12:15:14
192

So only 8% of all the other parties support Independence, how interesting.
If that little gem is part of the 25% level of support for Independence, then please explain why the Unionist Alliance is not capitalising on such favourable figures, by supporting a referendum.
A referendum which should, according to these percentages, kill off the whole question of Independence.
They are not doing so.
Logic suggests, it's too darn close to call.
222

Alan B,

02/04/2008 12:16:19
The US public who now think the war was a big mistake and the democratic leadership (if elected) will surely shun Salmond for have the apalling nerve to hold the same view.

Brown will surely be welcomed telling them that Bush was a genius in going into iraq.
223

Arfur,

02/04/2008 12:16:50
#227 Highland Mighty - in those 11 months SNP have done more for Scotland than Labour ever did in god knows how many years (and were ever likely to do).

Tin pot party, liers, cheats, headless chickens, Labour.
224

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:17:54
237. Too righ they will! Bad luck for Salmond there is no one in the USA who oppose the Iraq war. In fact, once the USA find out Salmond did, they will probably throw him out just like they did to President Chirac!
225

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:18:37
238. The SNP may have done alot, but as George Foulkes said, the SNP are improving services in Scotland "deliberately". Its just not on.
226

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/04/2008 12:19:03
Just thought I'd re-post this little gem from highland mighty @ #2


"You can just picture the American listeners saying to each other, "Isn't Gordon Brown Scottish? Wasn't Blair Scottish?"


Er no HM, we can't - you are havering (that's a Scottish word HM)

Care to retract your 'blaming London for everything' slur given you cannot find one quote or link to back it up.

An apology would be appropriate
227

Alien from Manchester,

Manchester 02/04/2008 12:19:10
The fact the our good ole leader Salmond keeps his Westminster seat is an indication of his agenda, post 2010!
228

Arfur,

02/04/2008 12:19:38
#235 Union is Best - get back to school sonny.
229

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/04/2008 12:21:45
Keep it up Union is best
230

Alan B,

02/04/2008 12:23:39
#231 Arfur

"Union is Best" is himself mocking the silliness of the unionist position.
231

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:24:11
243. I will go back to school just as soon as the SNP put the charges and graduate endowment back on - I am not joining in their socialist free education business, it is clearly a step to communism.
232

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:27:00
242. Quite right. Salmond saying he would stand down from his Westminster seat at the next election is just more SNP diversion. What you have to remember is it was OK for the leaders of the Labour and Lib Dems, and Labour FMs, to have a dual mandate because they are unionists and like Westminster. But it is no good for Salmond to behave like that, because he doesn't see the truth that Westminster is best. Next thing he will be representing views of people and such, and we know where that leads.
233

Independence, you say? What a marvelous idea!,

Criffel 02/04/2008 12:27:52
Simply stunning!

Who'd have thought that the Ivy League would have thrown the doors open to FM Salmond in such a fashion. Why previous First Ministers neve thought of such an excellent approach to appeal to the movers and shakers of the American establishment is quite beyond me.

As our colonial cousins say, "You rock", Mister Salmond."

I say #234 Mister Kimba, there really is no need for such language, please do us all a favour and desist your coarse ways. There could be ladies reading these intrwebular pages on the old Babbage-o-gram.
234

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:29:23
What worries me is that the Scottish people cannot see that the SNP is clearly schizophrenic. We unionists have been warning people in Scotland that the SNP is rabidly left wing and socialist, and also that they are viscious right wing Tartan Tories! How long before the Scots wake up and see the SNP is a two headed dangerous beast?
235

Arfur,

02/04/2008 12:29:39
Alan B - I see, Union is Best my appologies.
236

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:31:12
248. Rubbish. What would have been better to promote Scotland would have been if Salmond had dressed himself like a shortbread tin and played the bagpipe, and then modelled some haut couture new fangle kilts. People are not interested in Scotland as a dynamic place to invest, as Salmond is babbling about, at least Unionist FM's knew their and Scotland's place and pranced about entertainingly like Harry Lauder!
237

kimba,

02/04/2008 12:32:19
Seems the nat trolls are in full flight today! maybe this will shut them up- Labour Scottish National Party Conservative Liberal Democrat Other
Date Labour logo SNP logo Conservative logo Liberal logo
September 2007 38 % 38 % 13 % 9 % 1 %
2 April 2008 46 % 33 % 11 % 8 %

238

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 12:34:02
#207 - If the SNP get a majority of seats at the next Assembly elections we will have a referendum. Therefore, if most Scots believe a referendum is a priority, they will vote SNP. Or are you saying that the SNP will only hold a referendum vote if they think they can win it?
239

Alan B,

02/04/2008 12:35:23
Alien from Manchester
"The fact the our good ole leader Salmond keeps his Westminster seat is an indication of his agenda"

U seem to be unaware that Salmond said he would not fight for his Westminster seat at the next general election.

U also seem unaware than many policians moving from Westminster to the SP also did the same thing, by holding onto their westminster seat until the next election. eg Dewar.

As the westminster election is most likely to be before the sp. He will no longer be a Westminster mp by the time of the next scottish election.

240

Calum Crubag,

02/04/2008 12:35:54
So Highland Mighty, just how did the US get it's indpendence from England?

And what percentage of the population have visited Labour's website? Or the site of unionist/ devolution 'study'?
241

Alien from Manchester,

Manchester 02/04/2008 12:36:32
#248 As some one who studied in America know that Universities over there throw open their seminar slots to all kinds of guests and even nutters!! But the bottom line is they do not like anti-American utterance from the guest. If they learned the pronouncements of leader Salmond about Iraq and Americans part in it, there will not be any movers but 'shakers', shaking with disbelief that they were conned by this anti-American portly Scot!!
242

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 12:37:29
#230 - The people of Scotland voted for parties based on what was in their manifestos. They gave the majority of their votes to parties that clearly stated they were opposed to a referendum on independence. It really could not have been clearer.
243

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:38:22
253. Great point. The fact that no British Government has had an absolute majority of the vote is irrelevant, as they sit at Westminster and that is better. We unionists will oppose a referendum on independence, while challenging the SNP to bring one forward. We will also accuse the SNP of trying to impose independence by a referendum (everyone knows a referendum is not democratic).That will confuse them.
244

Independence, you say? What a marvelous idea!,

02/04/2008 12:39:27
#251 How very dare you Sirrah! I do not talk...type rubbish.

I believe this campaign of low key quality meetings with powerful educationalists and politicians is far better than simply 'branding' a country like Scotland with a marketing 'tag'.

'The Best Small Country in the World' How woefully inadequate was that slogan?

You Sirrah, seem to be one of those John Bull ne'er do wells my great aunt Euphegenia warned me about. I suggest other readers to this blawg take care of their pin numbers less this footpad make off with them.
245

Calum Crubag,

02/04/2008 12:40:12
#235 - agree entirly. Winning the most votes and being consistenly high in the polls does not mean the SNP is popular. Likewise, Wendy Alexanders minus 22% rating is actually good.

We also like prescription charges and want to pay more national insurance into the bargain. Similary, it's great that poorer people pay more under the council tax. And everyday, i hear the islanders complaining about fair prices on their ferries.
246

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 12:40:19
#255 - It was from Britain, not England.
247

Alan B,

02/04/2008 12:41:29
#253 Border Scot

U do not seem to have understood what i said in my post. (Ur reply does not address any of the issues i raised.)
248

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:41:35
257. Great point. The fact that they also voted for parties in favour of a local income tax is inconvenient, as Westminster is scuppering that. Maybe we'll just use majority opinion for certain matters, and ignore it for it others like a LIT or Trident? That will confuse them, as they won't know which issues we think a majority is important on. Further, when the SNP accede to the majority in parliament, like on trams, we will say they should just have ignored the majority. So, some majorities we like (when they agree with us) and some majorities are just rubbish. Keep em guessing!
249

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:42:21
262. We unionist will not be drawn into an SNP elephant trap of actually addressing points that are made!
250

Alien from Manchester,

Manchester 02/04/2008 12:42:46
#254 I am aware of what you are saying. Dewar is a bad example because he was a Unionist. A FM who believe strongly in independence of Scotand keeping his Westminster seat? I would not balme Salmond, he needs this seat after 2010!
251

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 12:42:50
#258 - In your attempts to caricature unionist opinion, you are beginning to get a little incoherent. Can I suggest that you think for just a little minute before you start typing your hilarious satirical skits - that way they may have a little more power.
252

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:43:54
261. Very ungrateful. What next, will Canada, Australia and New Zealand want independence next? And after all we did for them! It is exactly this type of ingratitude that ruins good unions.
253

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 12:44:04
263 - Oh dear. If the Assembly votes for a local income tax that is what we will get. Westminster cannot stop it. Keep it up though, you are a rib tickler
254

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/04/2008 12:44:55
#252

Numbers shnumbers kimba

How about this little gem from the daily rectum:-


"Alex Salmond Builds Massive Lead Over Wendy Alexander At The Polls
Mar 17 2008 By Magnus Gardham

THE SNP have opened a commanding lead over Labour, according to a poll out yesterday.

Voters also gave First Minister Alex Salmond a much higher approval rating than Labour leader Wendy Alexander.

The survey by MRUK Cello showed 39 per cent support for the Nats on Holyrood's constituency vote, up six per cent since their election victory last May"

Numbers shnumbers

255

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:45:52
266. We unionists did not get where we are by thinking before we post! I can see the SNP elephant trap of thinking for what it is! Now, only 16% of the electorate voted SNP, so they have no mandate. And in case you are thinking that only 17% of the electorate elected the UK government, that is different as they are at Westminster.
256

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 12:46:35
#262 - I did understand you. My point is that if the Scottish people want a referendum, they can vote SNP and get one, as the SNP will then be in a position to introduce legislation that will deliver a referendum vote.
257

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:47:46
268. Rubbish, Westminster is quite right to obstruct a local income tax by removing CTB monies and not copperating with it. The Holyrood parish council (Blair quote, good eh?) is getting above itself if it thinks it can change council funding in Scotland. The Assembly is not there to meddle with things in Scotland.
258

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 12:49:01
#270 - If I can stop myself from guffaeing for just a few moments, I will try to explain ...

The SNP does not have a mandate because they are a minority government. Therefore, as all nationalists keep on saying, they have to find support from other parties to get their legislation through.
259

McX,

02/04/2008 12:49:04
#256

Speaking as someone who has lectured in those same institutions as a guest of the US Government.

I can tell you that the majority of staff and overwhelming majority of students share Mr Salmond's view that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are 'unpardonable folly'.

It is quite obvious to even the most impartial viewer that FM Salmond's views are not Anti-American, but anti-war, and you feller should be ashamed of suggesting otherwise.

It was Mr Blair's great friend Muhammar Quaddafi who thought the USA the great Satan.

It is only students of Fox and those poor chicken-hawks who may find Mr Salmond's views unpalatable. Thankfully there days are outnumbered, much like Mr Brown's brief reign in Westminster.
260

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 12:49:48
#274 - This really is laugh out loud funny.
261

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:49:52
271. Great point. And if the British people want a referendum on Europe they can vote for one. But if some people want a referendum on Europe, but tighter immigration controls, they can just pick which they ae voting for. And as for people who want a referendum on Europe, tighter immigration and tax increases for better services, well they can just get lost as you can only vote on one issue at an election.
262

Alan B,

02/04/2008 12:51:05
#265 "Alien from Manchester"

I think u are just trying to be silly. What advantage would there be to the snp if Salmond was to call a by-election for his Westminster seat?

The mps of all major parties have maitained there seats till the next election. There is no demand for mps/msp to call by-elections when moving to the sp from westminster.

This is just the silly froth that comes from unionist supporters that debase the whole and important issue around scotlands constitution.



263

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 12:51:18
Sorry #274, I was laughing so hard I got my number reference wrong. I was directing myself to the marvellous Union is Best at #272. He is a gem!
264

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:51:20
273. Quite right. But the UK government does have a mandate because it got 35.5% of the vote and the SNP only got 33%.
265

Cpt Incredible,

Edinburgh 02/04/2008 12:51:37
Alex Salmond is quite simply the best politician on the planet.
The unionist numpties are certainly getting a little scared.
Roll on Independance.It's coming and the War Criminals party know it in their heart.
266

Alien from Manchester,

Manchester 02/04/2008 12:53:08
#271 Understand. The one great ally the unionist parties have are the SNP themselves and particularly the SNP activists. Looking at the nationalist postings here, they can draw comfort that the chances of SNP acieving that is remote indeed. Mancunians do not mind Salmond standing in a Manchester constituency after the debacle in 2010! but the Scottish independence agenda would see him lose his deposit though!!
267

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 12:53:45
#276 - You are right, the Scottish people are far too supid to prioritise when they come to vote. In fact, when they give most f their votes to explicitly anti-referendum, pro-Union parties, what they in fact wanted was a referendum on independence. Of course! Your satire has convinced me how wrong I was to place my trust in the intelligence of Scottish voters.
268

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:54:51
280. Rubbish. Wendy Alexander was just lulling Salmond into a false sense of security by getting embroiled in sleaze and illegal donations. Her hairy caterpillar speech and constant sacking of spin doctors is merely a cunning ploy to create an appearance of total incompetence and ineptitude. When Salmond buys it she will suddenly maul him. Just wait.
269

McX,

02/04/2008 12:55:43
#278 Apology accepted Border Scot. I was trying to work out how you could have read, digested any salient points, composed a response and sent it all in 44 seconds.
270

Border Scot,

02/04/2008 12:56:15
#279 - Under our present, ridiculous way of returning MPs to Westminster the current governemt does indeed have a mandate because it has a majority of MPs.If it were up to me I would change it. If enough people share my opinion and believe it is a priority they will vote for candidates who support change the next time we get an election.
271

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:56:55
282. Quite right. Some people say people voted Labour for their NHS and training polices, but we Unionists know that people actually voted Labour, Lib Dem and Tory explicitly because of their referendum policy.

Then we will confuse these Nats further by saying people didn't actually vote SNP for independence! Liking it? You see the genius - we will just claim people vote for whatever party based on whatever issue we are discussing.

272

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 12:58:07
285. Hey, hold on, were people not meant to be voting in the next election on your last issue? Now you want them to vote solely based on voting reform?
273

Arfur,

02/04/2008 12:58:50
SNP
---------------------------------
Fairer tax
Lower to no prescription charges
Tolls removed
Business rates down
Promoting Scotland
Fair price on ferries
More police
No War
No nucular weapons

Labour
---------------------------
Be-little Scotland
Nothing done for years in Scotland
Members taking cash illegally
Want to free the locherbie bomber
War
'UK's' nucular weapons (dumped in Scotland)
Lies
274

Alien from Manchester,

Manchester 02/04/2008 12:59:10
#279. Union Best: There is another important difference. The Westminster voting is based on the first-past-the post, and does take into account only the winner and the rest do not matter. PR on the other hand works taking votes cast in order, and hence under PR on gets votes distributed and coalition govt is the norm. To get an outright majority in a PR system like that in Scotland, the winning party has to poll a substantial percentage of votes.
275

Alan B,

02/04/2008 13:03:17
Border Scot

Couple of questions?

1)Do u support a referendum so that the people of scotland can choose if they want to implement Wendies commission?
2)If u say no to pt 1. Can u justify why specific powers given in a referendum could be removed without another?
3)Opinion polls show that the vast majority people want more powers for SP. But given that the apparently most popular choice, is only held by the lib dems (previous to the last scottish election), does this not show some disconnect between voting for a party and the constution that one may want?
4)Is it right for the unionist parties (labour and tory) who rejected more powers for the sp at the last scottish election to implement a more powerful sp, without a referendum going against the position they held at the time that they were voted in.
276

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:04:40
289. Great point - the Westminster government with 35% of the vote has a clear and total mandate because it is based on an archaic voting system, thus giving it more moral authority than the SNP's 33%.

The SNp plan to actually allow all people in Scotland to vote in a referendum is clearly not fair or democratic.
277

Arfur,

02/04/2008 13:04:44
#283 Union is Best - brilliant.
278

MoClana,

Stirling 02/04/2008 13:06:31
Reading all of the above (sadly) what is clear is that with every breaking story involving Alex Salmond or the Scottish goverment talking up Scotland, the more furious the comments you see from Unionists.

Whilst apparently rubbishing anything the Goverment does, you can literaly feel them seething that this is happening and they have absolutely no control over it.
If they truly reperesented mainstream opinion in Scotland then why do the people of Scotland support Alex Salmond by a majority?

They are the minority who opinions become more extreme by the day.

Relax....dont get so bitter as we will all have a vote soon enough, which of course you will win....wont you?
279

Proud Highlander,

Halifax 02/04/2008 13:10:28
Highland Mighty you do us shame. What has the Union done to benefit the Highlands? Persecution sent Highlanders around the globe to contribute and benefit every other economy in the world, except the Highlands! And you want this to continue under the Union? Take a look around the Highlands, all it is now is a playground for the rich. Its no longer the home of a proud and hard working culture. All those worth their salt have been shifted out of the playground. 90% of the Highlands now owned by less than 5% of the people. This is what you call "Mighty". Its a crying shame. I for one would like to stand on my own two feet and independence is the only way that can happen. Good or bad, I'll take it over tipping my cap!
280

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:11:01
294. Great point. And if anyone says that 84% of the electorate did not support any Labour policy on the same basis, just tell that is at Westminster and its different.
281

Calum Crubag,

02/04/2008 13:11:05
#286 - UiB- True! People did only vote Tory, Labour and Libdem to stop an independence vote. Maybe these 3 parties should merge to for the Roughly Centre-Right Unionist Party?
282

,

02/04/2008 13:11:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
283

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:13:34
293. We Unionists are not bitter or panicking! We just don't see why all you Nat types have to rush around and change things! Honestly, Scotland has been quite happy in the Union for a long time. OK, you may say our growth rate is half that of other countries, but we have the BBC and other stuff to compensate, such as Jeremey Clarkson and Royal Garden parties - do you want to throw that away just on some silly notion about running your own country? All this business of running things just seems to involve a lot of work and fuss.
284

Calum Crubag,

02/04/2008 13:14:33
Kimba- I think you just lost it. How can 'Union is Best' possibly be a Nat? A Brit Nat like Wendy?
285

walter,

02/04/2008 13:15:34
The vote for Scotland to leave the union is for the people of Scotland to decide in a referendum.
The vote to hold a referendum is for parliamentarian.
The only way the supporters of independence can get a referendum on independence is for the majority of parliamentarians to vote to hold one.
When the majority of the people vote in a majority of parliamentarians who support a referendum then one will be held.
As long as the majority of the people vote in a majority of parliamentarians who do not support a referendum one won't be held.
It is the way our democracy works.
286

,

02/04/2008 13:15:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
287

Calum Crubag,

02/04/2008 13:15:59
Scotland independent?! OUR oil and whisky money would never cover Michael Martin's taxis, not to mention London's foreign wars.
288

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:16:01
297, Damn, makes you wonder why Labour, the Tories and the Lib Dems bother with all those policies on police, health and education if people just vote for them to stop a referendum. Your point is sound, in the interests of efficiency perhaps we Unionists should coalesce into one single party steadfastly opposed to a referendum, and leave all the other fluff to the SNP! Will save alot of time and effort, and will allow me to get down the New Club of an afternoon!
289

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/04/2008 13:16:14
Splendid stuff UiB
290

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:17:41
303. Your oil? What? Just because the oil may be adjacent to Scotland does not make it Scotland's. That is like saying gold mined in South Africa should be taxed there. Ludicrous - where would that end, countries taxing and controlling their own assetts? How would that work??
291

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/04/2008 13:19:57
WTF #302?

292

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 02/04/2008 13:20:18
This is an excellent speech and fine sentiments, no wonder our resident Brits on here are getting a bit testy. The truth hurts!

The campaign for a referendum marches on, today we hear that even local Labour MP's are supporting it after Tom Hunter backed an independence referendum at the weekend along with Brian Wilson and David Martin MEP.
293

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:21:33
303. Typical Nat. Shirking your global responsibility to ruin other countries. Iraq would not have degenerated into chaos on its own you know. Fine, SNP types just want to stay tucked up in Scotland while there are countries to be ruined. Typoical.
294

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/04/2008 13:21:50
#295

being from Argyll my sentiments exactly
295

Shug,

02/04/2008 13:22:57
USA is a pretty bad choice for discussions re independence. Apologies to the historians but doesn't the US really boil down to a lot of British and Europeans who poured over there to make a new start, virtually wiping out the then indigenous population and then decided to keep the vast natural resources for themselves. Not quite the noble history they and the misty eyed Salmondites of the world would have us believe.
296

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:23:31
308. Rubbish, it is not the job of the First Minister or Scottish Exceutive to parade about trying to get inward investment and jobs in Scotland, or raising Scotland's profile.
297

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:24:19
311. Quite right, and very up to date and relevant if I may so say.
298

Gargamel,

02/04/2008 13:25:33
#236 European Scot: the reason Labour are not capitalising on the huge majority that see right through the Nats’ nonsensical separation agenda is that they don’t want to concede a referendum on the EU Treaty as well. One would almost inevitably follow the other: it’s not rocket science!
299

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:26:24
301. Great point, parliaments should only hold referenda on issues where the people are likely to agree with the parliamentary majority!
300

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:27:45
314. Rubbish, to suggest that Labour or any other Unionist party would use Scotland's future in some grubby tactical consideration of UK Westminster politicking is ludicrous.
301

Gargamel,

02/04/2008 13:38:10
#247 Union is Best: sorry, but politicians from the mainstream parties only used the dual mandate system shortly after the parliament was established. The bloated demagogue with the popular touch resurrected the system solely because he prefers Westminster and likes to maintain a bolthole!
302

VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR,

Pub vanwinkle 02/04/2008 13:38:29
Vote for Scottish Labour and we promise to get (rid) of the following..

Abolished prescription charges

Saved local A&E units

Backdated the NHS pay award.

Began a pilot for free School meals

Given equal rights to children of asylum seekers

Doubled the international aid budget

Ended ring fencing of council spending

Cuts in business rates

The council tax freeze

VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR TO SCRAP ALL THE ABOVE POLICES THAT THE SNP HAVE IMPLEMENTED.

Scottish Labour will promise you a say on what colour our red rose will be at the next party conference in Wick.

Now is that a good incentive or is it a good incentive to vote SCOTTISH LABOUR?
303

Alan B,

02/04/2008 13:39:30
#314

Gargamel is correct. Unionists have always held referendum to allow scotland to choose to be in the union before.

It was not Dougies fault this time that no-one told the printers to include a independence option at the referendum in 97.
304

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/04/2008 13:40:17
LMAO
305

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:40:36
317. Great point. Those people in Gordon had absolutely no business electing Salmond, knowing as they did he was an MP as well.
306

Gaelforce,

Hawaii & Scotland. 02/04/2008 13:43:24
Virginian & GC USA
"UNITED" States of America
More like FRAGMENTED States of America, 50 states that act like little countries, and as the saying goes, The World,THe USA and California, not bad for a country that only recognises Hawaii and Alaska when it suits them,so I would look at how United your own country is before commenting on Scotland because it wants its independance. before you ask yes I do live in Hawaii and I have lived in California.Like Scotland Hawaii wants its country back. Alba gu brath!
307

Andrew Allan,

02/04/2008 13:43:51
#316., union(isn't)best.
Both the Labour party and the Tories have suggested that it would at sometime in the future reduce the number of Scottish MPs by having one per around a hundred thousand or so, reducing the Scottish voice at westminster. I would have it reduced to zero and have all of our say in Scotland, that way it becomes much more productive.
308

antifa,

02/04/2008 13:45:33
Firstly, can we all agree that putting the Spanish plural "as" on the word "unionist" is not clever? It can also be used at the end of the word "nationalist". That wouldn't be clever either.

Some of the nationalist posters on here are the worst possible advert for independence.

They are Scotland's Bosnian Serbs. Any Yugoslav would recognise the similarities: the false sense of victimhood, the selective history, the bovine stupidity, the unwillingness to listen to reason; the hatred and bile.

Progressive Nats (thankfully the majority) should disassociate themselves from these people.
309

VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR,

02/04/2008 13:45:40
VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR....

We will promise to match the Lib dums for poll for poll

We have that divine right to rule Scotland and the SNP do not.

We won the election and Mr Robert Mugabe was our witness
310

Andrew Allan,

02/04/2008 13:45:48
#321.,union(isn't)best.
considering that it was and is legal then they had all the right in the world.
311

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:45:59
323. Rubbish, unionist parties would never seek to reduce Scotland's representation at Westminster, or reduce the influence of Scottish MPs there!
312

Alan B,

02/04/2008 13:46:03
#323 U simply cannot do that. Who would pay for Michael Martin's wifes taxis.
313

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:47:05
326. Rubbish, just because people in Gordon elected Salmond legally as an MSP, knowing he was an MP, doesn't mean they knew what they were doing.
314

European Scot,

02/04/2008 13:47:41
314 Gargamel

"the reason Labour are not capitalising on the huge majority that see right through the Nats’ nonsensical separation agenda is that they don’t want to concede a referendum on the EU Treaty as well. One would almost inevitably follow the other: it’s not rocket science."

......the Nats nonsensical separation agenda...
Now let me see what would your political stance be ?

So you are suggesting that to enable the Labour party to continue reneging on their promise of a referendum on Europe, Scottish Unionist politicians are complicit in helping to prevent another democratic process taking place.....
and you support these people ?

315

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:48:46
328. Typically petty Nat comment. Clearly you don't understand just how much shopping the wife of Speaker has to do, nor do you understand why it is essential the tax payer supplies the taxis for it. Is all to do with affairs of state and Westminster prerogatives which are clearly above your head.
316

VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR,

02/04/2008 13:48:47
VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR

We will promise you Nuclear warheads on the Clyde even though we declared years ago that Strathclyde would be a Nuclear free zone.

We are the party of TRUST...
317

Mr Bootshine,

Las Vegas 02/04/2008 13:49:27
311 shug, all true verily- but they came up with some novel good ideas in the process. evolution is a long slow painful process...
318

McX,

02/04/2008 13:49:43
Here's a wee question that's been rattling about.

These powers that the WENDY thinks we should hand back to Westminster, why didn't New New Labour hand them back when they were last in power?
319

Alan B,

02/04/2008 13:50:59
#329 Union is Best: correct again. It would far better if we could just stop all this voting nonsense north of the border and just let the london major run the show. Why have Salmond running around when we could have Boris or Ken.
320

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:52:39
334, How naive. They were using them. Now that we unionists are not using them, we do not need them.
321

VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR,

02/04/2008 13:53:18
VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR and we will promise Gregg's the Bakers, Michael Martin (the speaker)will stop eating all the pies and getting his wife to claim them on expenses.

WE ARE THE PARTY OF TRUST AND NOT THE SNP..?
322

Alan B,

02/04/2008 13:56:54
"These powers that the WENDY thinks we should hand back to Westminster, why didn't New New Labour hand them back when they were last in power?"

Simple really. Now that Wendy is in charge, she realises that having things done by the sp will deprive scotland of her brother dougies experience. Passing back powers will allow him to use his great skills as a politician to scotland benefit. Not only will we have well run elections we will also have a better scotland because of his input.
323

Gargamel,

02/04/2008 13:59:31
#330 European Scot: 1. There is no need for a referendum of Europe as the Treaty is not substantive enough, but let’s not go into all that here.

2. It’s up to the Nats to win an outright majority if they really want their cherished referendum. It needs to be voted through by the parliament first, because that’s the way democracies work, you know!
324

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 13:59:41
338. How cynical. We unionists see a danger that if these powers are left in Scotland, people may be tempted to use them. Given the limitations of Scotland and Scots, this could lead to over-exertion. It is simply for Scotland's own good that we want to return these powers to Westminster so that they will not bother Scots or cause them unneccessary work.
325

Stepford Nat..,

02/04/2008 13:59:55
337
That's only because we've just got 6 MWPs. If we had lots, we'd do the same
You're rubbish, SNP is brilliant
326

VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR,

blooms by yah 02/04/2008 14:00:16
#338

Good post and that is why you should vote for SCOTTISH LABOUR.

The SNP have Alex Salmond and Shir Shaun Shonery

We in the Labour Party have Wendy Alexander and Lord Zebedee
327

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:01:37
339. Great point. The European Constitutional Treaty in no way resembles the European Constitution. Any similarity or thought that the first is based, like a carbon copy, on the second, is purely speculative and only comes about when the two documents are read and compared. And anyway, we must only have referenda that are likely to produce the results that we want!
328

Alan B,

02/04/2008 14:03:19
#339 "There is no need for a referendum of Europe as the Treaty is not substantive enough"

So what u are saying is. Labour went into a general elections with a commitment to a referendum. And now that it is in powers it is refusing to have one as it is not substantive enough.

U will have to be a unionist with logic like that.
329

VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR,

blooms by yah 02/04/2008 14:05:08
341

No Scottish Labour is brilliant, remember we trail the SNP on every opinion poll published this year.

Our Grand leader has a personal approval rating of -22% something that the Antarctic penguins would be proud off if that was translated into temperature readings
330

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:07:01
341. Quite right. Decades of Tory and Labour sleaze is mere window dressing and scene setting for the torrent of SNP related related sleaze, which is lingering like WMD in Iraq ready to surface. In fact, some more sophisticated Unionist tacticians have sugegsted the rivers of sleaze Labour and the Tories engage in is merely to try and tempt the SNP away from their silly running Scotland's own affairs nonsense.
331

Alan B,

02/04/2008 14:07:02
#342 As Lord Zebedee said - the snp are deliberately trying to improve public services in scotland. Now why would we want that. We must get labour back in so that we can continue down the path of self destruction.

332

Andrew Allan,

02/04/2008 14:07:14

#329.,Union is Best. 02/04/2008 13:47:05
‘326. Rubbish, just because people in Gordon elected Salmond legally as an MSP, knowing he was an MP, doesn't mean they knew what they were doing.’

Like most Scots I believe in ant-elitism, and so treat everyone as if they are equal, which is to say I am just as good as anyone else. In this way most Scots would say your comments are nothing less than elitist, and of the worst kind, unproven.

333

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:08:06
345. These polls you refer to were only taken amongst a spread of opionion and people in Scotland, and are therefore suspect. We all know the only real opinion that counts is at Westminster.
334

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:09:15
348. Rubbish, it is quite clear to me that people make sound decisions when voting in Unionist MPs. However, when people in Gordon elected Salmond even though he was an MP they were clearly tricked or stupid.
335

Alan B,

02/04/2008 14:09:42
Is it true that when Blair talked about deploying weapons of mass destruction in 45 minutes, he had misread a speach that was meant to say Lord Zebedee, labours weapon of mass incompetance could be deployed in 45mins?
336

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:12:08
344. Good grief, it is hardly Labour's fault that they promised a referndum on something that turned out not to be substantive.

Next you will be blaming Labour for promising in 1997 a referendum on voting reform. It is hardly Labour's fault that turned out not to be substantive either.

Subsidance under Labour's referendum promises is due to subsidence only, and perhaps loss of substance in the issues they promised the referendum on, nothing else.
337

VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR,

Woolworths 02/04/2008 14:12:20
347 Alan B

Fantastic and excellent post. We in Scottish Labour (and lord Zebedee) will do and say anything to discredit the popular SNP government. It is the Labour way.

We have that divine right to rule.
338

Stepford Nat..,

02/04/2008 14:13:05
345
No, Liebore is rubbish
Alex is nearly a god - behold & worship Him as such
He can do no wrong
He doesn't accept bribes from big businesses
www.snp.org
339

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:13:25
351. Rubbish. Saddam did have weapons of mass destruction ready at 45 minutes notice. They just became non-substantive, thus our inability to find them.
340

Andrew Allan,

02/04/2008 14:14:17
#346.,Union is Best. 02/04/2008 14:07:01
‘341. Quite right. Decades of Tory and Labour sleaze is mere window dressing and scene setting for the torrent of SNP related related sleaze, which is lingering like WMD in Iraq ready to surface. In fact, some more sophisticated Unionist tacticians have sugegsted the rivers of sleaze Labour and the Tories engage in is merely to try and tempt the SNP away from their silly running Scotland's own affairs nonsense.’


U-i-B, usually we get the punch line after the main body of the joke, but with you we get the main body of the joke spinning every unproven bit of rubbish you can find under that rock you crawled from under.

341

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:14:18
354. If Salmond is getting bribes from big business, we unionists weill be fizzing mad. They are meant to come to us.
342

Stepford Nat..,

02/04/2008 14:14:48
353
No, WE have the divine right to rule.
The Dalex Llama is a living god.

343

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:16:59
358. Everyone knows that Labour still govern Scotland. Des Browne said so.
344

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:19:05
358. Hey you, I am blowing my Labour dog whistle. Time to heel and accept your place. You know you lack the steel in your backbone or competence to ever run your owm country.
345

VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR,

blooms by yah 02/04/2008 14:19:09
#349 Union is best

We in the Scottish Labour party agree. The poll samples were suspect and we reckon they were taken from a laboratory sample in Edinburgh UNI..

Now as you say, It is indeed the the Westminster polls that really count and i can confirm that we are ahead of UKIP and the Lib dums although we a trailing behind the Conservatives and the SNP in Scotland for the UK parliament, but we are making slow progress.
346

Andrew Allan,

02/04/2008 14:19:48
#355.,U-i-B.
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha, you've got to be kidding, what type of weapon are we talking about here fairy dust by any chance?
347

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:20:49
361. Great stuff. People will soon tire of the SNP and their deliberate improvement of services in Scotland, then Labour will once more be triumphant.
348

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:21:12
362. Have you been Wendied?
349

Alan B,

02/04/2008 14:22:08
#362 Andrew - "Union is Best" is mocking the unionists and showing how silly they are.
350

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:22:41
362. Clearly Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. Labour said so and published documents to that effect. As Labour would not lie, we must assume that the WMD have been minaiturised and shipped to some SNP cell in Cumnock, who no doubt have a de-miniaturising machine of some kind.
351

VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR,

Tibet 02/04/2008 14:24:18
#354 Stepford Nat

Of course we take donations and bribes from big companies, just as Tesco and the Corner shop in Luss,its called Mawawa & sisters ltd.

Its the Labour way...
352

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:25:44
367. But what you fail to say is that these donations are used to help vulnerable two year olds, through the medium of being spent on clothes for Labour politicians so they look smart when visiting children's homes.
353

Andrew Allan,

02/04/2008 14:26:01
#365., Alan B.
I'm glad you have told me, I was just thinking that there surely couldn't be people out there that could be that stupid.
354

Alan B,

02/04/2008 14:26:24
#366 I have heard of that miniaturising machine myself. Seemingly it was the same one the Lord Zebedee kept under his hat. Unfortuately someone left it on.
355

Fitz-Flaad,

USA 02/04/2008 14:26:25
We pray for Scotland's independence each night. Good luck to you all and may Scotland become a free and self governing entity soon! We also wish Jefferson were alive today so we could change our leadership - we are run by a moron voted into office by even more morons.
356

VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR,

blooming with yah 02/04/2008 14:28:07
#365 Alan B..

I disagree, Union is best makes very valid points.

Take a read at his post..Union is Best,02/04/2008 14:20:49
361. Great stuff. People will soon tire of the SNP and their deliberate improvement of services in Scotland, then Labour will once more be triumphant

Now what is funny about that i may ask?
357

Andrew Allan,

02/04/2008 14:28:41
366.,U-i-B.
I like to believe they were really weapons of miss destruction, just with an error in the spelling.
358

VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR,

blooms by yarn 02/04/2008 14:30:00
#368 union is best

Good point but we have increased the age to 3 now. We are on the hunt for more big company donations.
359

Lisbon-Lion,

Glasgow 02/04/2008 14:30:11
"And it is the words of Thomas Jefferson that will inspire us: 'We are a people capable of self-government, and worthy of it'."

It never ceases to amaze me how many Scots have no gumption or bottle AND SOMETIMES I'M ASHAMED TO BE SCOTTISH.

My son who attends Dundee University was told by overseas students THAT YOU SCOTS ARE JUST IRISH WITHOUT BALLS and boy were they correct.

Gandi was negotiating with the vice-roy of India and the vice-roy told him that INDIA WOULD BE A MESS WITHOUT THE BRITISH to which Gandi replied, MAYBE SO, BUT IT WILL BE OUR MESS.

Get a life you doubters and stop being afraid of Englands lies and deceptions, Scotland is massively wealthy or the English would have nothing to do with us.
360

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:31:04
371. Typical - what have SNP types got against morons and being governed by them?
361

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:32:28
375. Rubbish. If independence is so easy, then there would be loads of small independent countries.
362

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:34:25
374. Well, you could try setting up a front organisation, and solicit donations, and say it is for the regeneration of an deprived area, but use the money for Labour party campaigns instead? That way many more vulnerable 3 year olds will benefit!
363

VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR,

Celtic park 02/04/2008 14:36:31
Lisbon-Lion,Glasgow

We in the Scottish Labour party would never want anyone to know that the Lisbon-Lions and Celtic were the first British team to win the European cup and all of their players were born within an 8 mile radius of Celtic park.

This achievement by Celtic is not recognized by Labour so you are better of with the SNP.
364

VOTE FOR SCOTTISH LABOUR,

blooms by yah with lord zebedee 02/04/2008 14:38:16
#378 union is best

Sorry but we are away ahead of you on that one, consider it done.
365

Gargamel,

02/04/2008 14:46:41
#343 Union is best: it’s not as if there’s a great clamour of support for either the EU Treaty or the Nats’ separation referendum. Sure, opinion poll evidence suggests that the public is all for putting these matters to the democratic vote, but I’m firmly of the opinion that the turnout would be embarrassing. For this very reason, such matters are best decided by politicians: they’re actually elected for this very purpose, for crying out loud! I personally would abstain in a separation referendum: this would be a complete waste of everybody’s time designed to persuade the rank and file Nats that the party hadn’t abandoned the separation agenda for the lost cause that it undoubtedly is. And before you all start, it’s accepted practice to count abstentions as votes against in referendums.
366

Ian Dubh,

Inverness 02/04/2008 14:48:26
Kind of sad that other countries support Scottish culture and hope for an Independent Scotland MORE than Scotland it's self. Have a vote,see what the people of THIS country have to say on the matter. The issue isn't English v. Scottish,we're the ones here that have cowarded down and not demanded it ...demand it now,just have a vote and see what the people say about their own country's future.
367

A Scot in America,

02/04/2008 14:48:54
Why all this concern with majorities or minorities being for or against Scottish independence? Revolutions are always initiated and won by a minority of a people.
368

Union is Best,

02/04/2008 14:51:04
381. Great point, and I agree, we know best, what do the plebs know! And as for people who say it is clearly crass and disingenous to generalise your own thinking and extrapolate it to everyone else, I say tough - I know better than most people.

And I think you are totally correct about the turn out for a Scottish referendum - who really cares about the future of Scotland that they would be bothered to vote! Give Scots some BBC Top Gear and a Royal Garden party and they are perfectly happy!