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Five weeks is a long time in politics

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Published Date: 13 March 2008
THE change, over the course of just over a month, has been stark. On 6 February, John Swinney delivered a parliamentary masterclass when he opened and closed for the Scottish Government in the Budget debate – goading, taunting and ridiculing his political opponents to the delight of his back-benchers before getting his Budget through a minority parliament and humiliating the Labour Party at the same time.
On Tuesday of this week, Mr Swinney went on BBC's Newsnight Scotland programme to defend his plans for a local income tax. He was hesitant, passive and flat, repeatedly failed to answer straightforward questions and was left buffeted by the withering attacks of Gordon Brewer, the host.

The finance secretary looked less like one of Holyrood's most professional and experienced performers and more like the the shy bank manager that his political opponents have ridiculed him as in the past.

Unfortunately for Mr Swinney, he has been here before. It was nine years ago and he will remember it well because that crisis was also caused by income tax.

In 1999, Mr Swinney, then the SNP's finance spokesman, unveiled plans to raise income tax in Scotland by 1p in the pound. The "Penny for Scotland" plan was designed to reverse an income tax cut announced by Gordon Brown in the previous Budget and to use the money for front-line services in Scotland.

It was an electoral disaster. The SNP was beaten into a poor second place by Labour several weeks after the Penny for Scotland launch, with many people, both inside and outside the party, convinced that the strategy had played a major role in turning voters away from the SNP.

When he became leader of the SNP the following year, a contrite Mr Swinney ditched the idea of raising income tax as soon as he could and tried to rebuild his party's battered fiscal reputation.

Now Mr Swinney is at it again, announcing a plan to raise income tax on middle and high-income earners and giving a passable impression of Scrooge to Scotland's hard-working families.

In doing so, he has managed to unite Scotland's business community and some unions against him, bring Labour and the Tories into a loose alliance opposing him, and has generated such a backlash of negative publicity that the Scottish Government has been rocked for the first real time since taking office.

So what's going on?

Margo MacDonald, the independent MSP who has been in and around Nationalist politics for three decades, said Mr Swinney's low-key performance on local income tax was due to one fact: his heart was not in it.

She said: "He is trying to see through an SNP manifesto commitment. What carried him through his performances in the past was in part the adrenalin of having won the election and partly because he did well in the Budget and spending review.

"He is now trying to do what, I think, he has become convinced is probably impossible."

Ms MacDonald said the SNP government had become obsessed with its manifesto commitments, believing that the voters actually remembered what had been in the manifesto, when the simplest and best thing to do, on occasions, was to drop commitments which could not be delivered.

Peter Lynch, a senior lecturer in politics at Stirling University, said Mr Swinney should never have attempted to change local government finance.

He said: "This is the most difficult policy they have tried to implement.

"I wouldn't have picked it. You should never change local government finance because every time you do it, you get mired in such difficulties and problems that it becomes all but impossible to do.

"Given the way he coped with the Budget, this is probably a bit of a turnaround for him. (The SNP] made such an issue of the council tax in the election they have felt compelled to go ahead with this, but they really should have dumped it."

However, Mr Lynch said the Scottish Government's decision to roll out such an unpopular policy now might be more astute than it first appeared.

"They are doing this now. Why? Remember where we are in the electoral cycle. They take the hit on this now, attract the negative publicity and move on in time for the election – that's the reason for doing this early rather than taking it into the next election campaign."

Since last year's election victory, Mr Swinney has had to endure a tougher ride and probably more ups and downs than the rest of his Cabinet colleagues put together.

The Budget process was difficult, getting it through the parliament even harder, but he managed that with style and competence.

Now he is suffering from the condemnation of groups and parties inside and outside the parliament and it has obviously affected him.

He has been through this sort of political rollercoaster before, as party leader, but what his colleagues will want to know is whether he has the fight to bounce back once again.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 12 March 2008 9:35 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

Angus Ogg,

13/03/2008 00:25:31
Margo is spot on.

John's heart is not in it, well not in LIT.

The SNP have captured many floating voters, but the SNP LIT is the equivalent of the Conservative Poll Tax, and look what happened with that?

We got David Mundell.

Nightmare.

Scotland still hasn't forgiven the Tories for the Poll Tax.

It would be a terrible shame if the SNP ended a great start in high office, and a huge potential by giving this Local Income Tax plan any more time.

Its Time.

Time to flit the LIT.
2

Rubbersbutnotrulers,

13/03/2008 00:37:14
The Nats will wither in the stem, as they rightfully deserve to do.

Is it only me , or does A Darling's eyebrow/hair combination invoke the image of a pint of Guiness?
3

britsout,

camelon 13/03/2008 01:40:44
we must have watched different interviews , i saw a biased "journalist" not willing to take anything that was said to him in good faith ATTEMPT to harangue a minister who was on top of his brief . when he attempted to explain the implications of a fiscally negative taxation measure i e that it would realise less than it would cost to collect . it might have been expected that the b b c interviewer might have considered the proposition instead of using the opportunity to advance his employers political agenda
4

subrosa,

13/03/2008 02:07:40
# 2

Why do they rightly deserve to wither on the stem? So far, they have given an excellent performance of how government should be - not like your steam rollering unionist mob. Yes I know they're in a minority but they've shown returned some credibility to the Scottish Parliament since last May.

# I though Gordon Brewer's biase was disgraceful last night. Where's the BBC interviewer's manners these days? Never a 'good evening' to any SNP representative they invite on their unionist show. Think I'll stop watching it, it's bad for me at bedtime.
5

subrosa,

13/03/2008 02:16:01
oooops should be bias
6

,

13/03/2008 02:40:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

bob smith,

glasgow 13/03/2008 02:53:32
IF YOU LOOK BACK AT NEWSNIGHT SCOTLAND BROADCASTS YOU WILL SEE THAT BBC SCOTLAND HAS GANGED UP ON THE SNP GORDON BREWER AND GLENN CAMPELL ALWAYS BUTT IN ALL THE TIME WHEN A MEMEBER FROM THE SNP IS ON THE SHOW THEY SHOUT AT THEM NEVR LET FINISH A PROPPER SENTENCE I BELIVE A INVESTIGATION SHOULD BE SET UP AND THE PRESENTERS TAKEN OF AIR UNTIL THE FINDINGS ARE COMPLETE.
AS THEY SAY THE CAMERA NEVER LIES . BULLING BY NEWSNIGHT SCOTLAND AND THE SCOTTISH PRESS THEY SIMPLY CANNOT FACE THE FACT OF THE SNP IN POWER IF YOU GO BACK AND LOOK AT ALL THE BBC NEWSNIGHT BROADCASTS SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE ABOUT THEM IT IS SHOCKING.
8

Nikostratos,

13/03/2008 05:15:45
John Swinney is learning the difference between making a promise and keeping it..............Where is Alex Salmond
nowhere to be seen
9

Rossmcl,

Edinbiurgh 13/03/2008 06:33:29
What a cynical, mean-minded little article! So politicians should never try to do anything that is difficult - no matter how worthwhile it is? That's the kind of Scotlnd we would live in if journalists were in charge. I don't always support the SNP but I do when they are right - and they are right on this. Oh, and 'withering attacks'? I thought Gordon Brewer's interview style on Tuesday night was a disgrace. It's not an interviewer's job to make 'withering attacks' on his interviewee.
10

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 06:57:24
This is the usual anti SNP drivel that we have come to expect from the Scotsman. LIT is potentially a popular policy and the UK Government are undemocratically trying to block it. We can't expect a biased media to admit this however!
11

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 07:15:34
1

Dont post sh*te this is a Hamish the red story and not to be confused with anything resembling a fact or actual event. LIT will be a significant step up from the council tax for the vast majority.
No taxes are popular but at least this one will be more popular that its predecesor.

8

About time you learned the difference between posting objectively and trolling.
12

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 13/03/2008 07:24:21
Business hates it because its progressive
Unions hate it because it will mean that councils will be constrained in their spending.
If you can get the Business community and the Unions to unite against something it is probably because its good for rest of us.
13

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 13/03/2008 07:51:30
#1 Angus

LIT is absolutely not the new poll tax. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the two systems.

LIT is linked to the individual's income ie their ability to pay. Poll tax required each person to pay a fixed amount irrespective of their income.

LIT is basically fair whilst poll tax was not. That is why 88% of the electorate are in favour of LIT which was never the case with poll tax.
14

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 13/03/2008 07:53:40
#3 britsout

I agree with your comments about the Swinney / Brewer interview. Swinney performed professionally and competently whilst Brewer was thuggish.
15

brownlie,

Glasgow 13/03/2008 08:08:40
I cannot believe that a "responsible" journalist on a "Quality" newspaper could write such an unbalanced article. He claims that Swinney refused to answer straight-forward questions. If he looks again he will find that Brewer kept asking the same inane question which was, obviously, the only weakness he could see in the proposals and continually interrupted and sniggered throughout the interview. If he had asked straight-forward questions, as it is his responsibility to do, he would have got straight-forward answers. If Simon Pia had drafted this article - did he? - it would have been ridiculous enough but from some-one who is supposed to present a balanced view it is the height of journalism at its poorest and the obvious bias in this article does him no credit whatsoever.
16

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 13/03/2008 08:15:51
A tax baised on ability to pay is very different from the poll tax or the existing council tax.Unlike the poll tax,all surveys of public opinion tell us that LIT is the preffered option of a large majority.

Someone on this thread stated that no tax is popular.Of course but any tax that meets the following criteria is likely to be acceptable:

1) It is based on an ability to pay
2) It is spent on services that the public want
3) Tax increases do not spin out of control

I believe that the SNP government are sensitive to all of this.However,the art of politics is delivering what is possible.A regional parliament in Edinburgh that controls only a fraction of Scotlands money cannot deliver what an independant parliament in Helsinki(that controls almost all of Finlands income) can deliver.I believe that it time for our media to acknowledge this,as well as the reality of minority administrations in pr systems designed to ensure that no single party dominates.

I believe that LIT should be implemented but the minority SNP government face difficulties in getting sufficient parlimentary support and have also met obstructive responses from Westminster sources,especially around the issue of whether Scotland can have some of its own money back.However,where there is a will there is a way.I just wish that some of our opposition MSP's would look at the issue on the basis of social justice,rather than party political gain.Perhaps it is too early in the history of the Hollyrood parliament to expect such maturity. This is a pity since there is a need for all of our political parties to work together and find a way of implementing a local income tax based on an ability to pay.

17

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:18:08
".....was left buffeted by the withering attacks of Gordon Brewer, the host."
Some host, he never even listened to John Swinney and his attacks were just that. In no sense was this a proper interview.
18

Jock 107,

13/03/2008 08:18:44
11 Cybernut

He has a point though - where is Alex "2 jobs" the Monarchist? Is he leaving his predecessor to flounder?

Woof woof???

19

sceptic,

13/03/2008 08:19:24
Well I didn't vote SNP last time, but with the removal of the bridge tolls and my frozen, if still excessive, council tax bill arriving in this morning's post I shall be voting SNP next time.
20

Gdgy,

dundy 13/03/2008 08:20:06
It's cynical, it's mean minded, It's evidence of systemic anti-nationalist bias in the BBC, the meida, the Dandy, the phone book and the hootsmon...all the SNP excuses come out...

The fact is it's true - Swinney could barely speak, couldn't explain his "policies" and a month after he performed "well" in parliament he has been shown to be a failure at the first hurdle......
And he is the intellectual SNPite!!!
21

bumpkin,

13/03/2008 08:21:04
A land tax would be much fairer than LIT and much easier to collect.
It should be paid only by the property owner, and not passed on to the tenant(by law).
This would stop the buy to let disaster which blights our cities and countryside.
The duke of buccleuch owns about 400 houses, denying 400 families the chance to own their own home.
Other lairds own even more.
this must be stopped.
22

Jock 107,

13/03/2008 08:21:14
#13

You're right, but those against it will try to portray it as a new poll tax. It'll be lies all the way, but they'll try to undermine it for petty political reasons.
23

The Strategist,

13/03/2008 08:23:14
#20

Yes it is true. Brewer's Droop wouldn't let Swinney get a word in. It was an appalling interview.
24

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 08:25:37
I think we are seeing total subversion of the media it has now gone beyond being friendly to Labour/Union to suppression of their storyline.
Its now time for Alex to get hold of some of his pals in Europe to investigate the "FREE" Media,I believe there are articles within the Brussels Framework to do this it will put Brown back into his box,Big investigation into STV and BBC Scotland.This will get them sorted,they'll run scared.
25

conservative,

Fife 13/03/2008 08:25:40
Where the Labour party is known for 'tax and spend' the SNP will forever be know as 'tax and tax'. 'Welcome to Scotland' - the taxation capital of Europe. Not so much shot themselves in the foot as blown their leg off. When is the next election due? - good riddance to the lot of them.
26

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 08:27:59
Yup time to call in Europe to sort out the Media.
27

conservative,

Fife 13/03/2008 08:32:47
glassbenmhor
Do you think that the scottish people are too stupid to see past any media influence? The plain truth is that the SNP proposals will increase taxes for most WORKING people with no effect on the rich. No wonder Swinney is being laughed out of office. We can only hope that Fat Alec will follow.
28

morris,

edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:33:23
7 bob smith,glasgow 13/03/2008 02:53:32

Absolutely Bob.The TV companies are from the top down subservient to Westminster.
The BBC know that their licence fee is a leash.Go to far and its yanked.
Gordon Brewer is like Whitton and the rest, known to be Labour Party hacks, or they are out.
They should remember this when/if independence comes.I for one will not be surprised if they never work in Scotland's media again ,since they cannot be trusted.They should ask objective questions of course,but then SHUT THEIR UNION LOVING GOBS and let the guest answer for himself/herself.
No one asks that they agree neccessarily ,only that they treat everybody equally and allow them to answer.The BBC really are pushing their luck here,and would be well advised to start being Scottish and fair, while they still can!

The contrast between Wendy "can do no wrong" Alexander interviews,and any SNP member is DISGUSTING and even Unionists should be ashamed of such conduct.Apart from anything else it defeats the purpose of asking, when he is not allowed to answer ,and smacks of political bias.
I have actually encountered Labour Party activists laughing at the open hostility to the SNP,and fully in approval of this bias. Its says far more about the totalitarian attitudes which exist within that party,and destroys freedom of speech,and being governed by a party whose membership is too stupid to realise this is of little comfort to anybody with a brain.
29

morris,

edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:34:32
27 Its impossible for PAYE to do what you say.Can you not do arithmetic then?
30

JimC,

Kilmarnock 13/03/2008 08:37:43
#25
That's rich coming from someone with the name "conservative"
31

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:40:51
unionists talk as if we are getting extra taxation,WE ARE NOT.Council tax is to be ABOLISHED,what part of abolished do you unionists and tory/nulab don't you understand.Isaw that interview,it was a disgrace,Gordon brewer was acting like a fishwife,and the hootman is no better
32

Aesop,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:52:25
Since when did the wealthiest section of society suddenly become re-christened as "hard-working families"?

They're wealthier than most so they should contribute more. That's what the concept of progressive taxation is all about.
33

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:59:46
27

Is that your unbias objective opinion or are you going to show us the math??
34

Freshford Fresh,

Dundee 13/03/2008 09:03:47
#9 and #10 spot on lads. It is a cynical, mean-minded little article and the usual anti-SNP b***ocks.

As for that beacon of hope and honesty, Margo McDonald.

Ms MacDonald said the SNP government had become obsessed with its manifesto commitments, believing that the voters actually remembered what had been in the manifesto, when the simplest and best thing to do, on occasions, was to drop commitments which could not be delivered.

35

morris,

edinburgh 13/03/2008 09:07:35
31 scottishcoffindodgerno1,Edinburgh 13

One can only conclude that Unionists fall into one of two camps:

a) Stupid enough to believe it OR
b) Dishonest enough to propogate such nonsense.

In either case you are CORRECT.
36

AntiPCman,

13/03/2008 09:13:08

In politics, one can be sincere about the most silly things if one really believes in it. If one does not, it will come over as half-hearted and not believable. John Swinney is trying to defend the indefensible.

Everyone agrees that we need to reform the CT but the difficulty is finding the right method and LIT imposed nationally is not it. I regret that it is back to the drawing board.

I have to say again that the SNPs are not asking the right questions of their civil servants and if they are then it is time the 'madarins' were replaced with inteligence and experience.
37

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 13/03/2008 09:19:45
Can anyone post a link to the Brewer interview with John Swinney.I would like to study it.

I have been concerned about the (in-your-face) interview techniqies on TV for some time.Irrespective of political party,it is irrirating when the interviewer interrupts the interviewee constantly,and doesn't listen to answers.The result is that the interviewee is forced to interrupt and when two people are talking over the top of each other,it is impossible for a listener to follow the conversation.I assume that the purpose of TV interviews is to inform the public?

John Swinney is a very nice man who is not inclined to engage in shouting,or interrupting,so he deserves more respect from journalists because they know that he will answer their questions in a friendly manner,given time.I'm not asking for empathy,just that an interviewee is given time to answer the question and that the intervier,listens actively in a neutral manner.That includes being careful about their body
language and voice tone.

38

morris,

edinburgh 13/03/2008 09:29:30
36

Many years ago,when a LIT was first suggested it was confirmed by Inland Revenue senior IT staff that it would NOT pose any problem,and re-programming the system whilst obviously dealing with Scotland seperately was not only feasible, but remarkably so!The Liberals variable system was more complex(needlessly so in my opinion)but still well possible.

If this has changed then it can only have been CHANGED intentionally because it was NOT a problem before, and I am personally unaware of any such change having taken place.
The general public's ignorance of PAYE is quite remarkable!How often do you hear the uninitiated crying wolf along the lines of " THERES NAE POINT IN DAEIN OVERTIME CAUSE THEY JUST TAKE IT BACK IN TAX AGAIN"which is of course arithmetical nonsense.They take progressively more as you earn more,and in the following week/month if you revert to normal earnings you will pay less ,maybe in unusual circumstances even
have a refund since PAYE is cumulative.
Many voters cannot pronounce that word, never mind understand what it means.

A local income tax is perfectly feasible and with minor exceptions ensures a major benefit to lower and middle earners.
Unfortunately the people most likely to benefit from such a system,are the very people least likely to vote SNP,and if you cant work out what that means then my point is proven!
39

Linda,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 09:31:19
It seems Unionists can't do their sums.
40

Tris,

Scotland 13/03/2008 09:31:35


The BBC has become English Brodcasting Corporation. There is an English bias to their news coverage. The six o'clock news is all about England, their laws, their events. Some of the interviewers on BBC Scotland are openly hostile to SNP ministers, despite their being polite and courteous to the interviewer.

Although it is based in London, the BBC gets a lot of money from Scottish licence payers. It would be a good idea if it remembered that. Maybe it's time to look again at the funding of the BBC.

41

,

13/03/2008 09:32:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
42

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 09:35:25
Mr Swinney has been caught out with a vote-losing, badly thought-out, badly presented shambles over tax, AGAIN. This time the SNP's exit strategy on this policy will be to blame England. That's a new departurte for the nationalists.....
43

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 09:37:18
42

Oh have you given up posting as conservative now??
44

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 13/03/2008 09:41:51
#42 This policy is not a vote loser I voted SNP for the first time ever because I am absolutely sick of the iniquitous Coucil tax.
45

AJ Fife,

13/03/2008 09:46:34
Gordon Brewer sounds like he needs a spot of re-education come the great day.

If he wants a job with our future national TV station, he'd better get with the programme pronto!!
46

Frere Jacques,

Glasgow 13/03/2008 09:52:26
It looks to me like SNP supporters still haven't got used to being in goverment. Of course the media gives you a rougher time when you get into power-that's the difference between being responsible for something and have to justify it, and just moaning all the time, which is essentially what you do in opposition.

Swinney's performance was absolutely dreadful, and his refusal to answer entirely straight forward questions entirely justified Brewer's approach. It was no different in that respect from the Paxman/Howard exchange.
47

morris,

edinburgh 13/03/2008 09:55:12
46 Frere Jacques,Glasgow
It looks to me like you have not read what we were saying.This happened whilst we were in opposition also!

It has always been the case .It did not start a year ago!
48

Shellfishfarmer,

Inverness 13/03/2008 09:56:25
I am for LIT. To put it simply, I pay £2,200 in Council Tax. With LIT I would pay £900 at 3% and £1,980 at 6.6%, if the Burt Review is to be believed. Seems like a good deal to me. I do think however if you are basing the argument on ability to pay, which must be the fundamental issue in any fair tax system, some means must be found to put dividend income into the pot. After all it is taxable. Surely, for the small number of people who live entirely off unearned income, the Tax Officer could come to a negotiated figure, so that everybody would participate.
49

brownlie,

glasgow 13/03/2008 09:57:59
conservative, fife,
"Fat Alex" indeed, I suppose you see yourself as an "Adonis" hiding behind the anonymity the internet affords you. Still I suppose its an improvement on your usual inane postings.
Could you, and Grahamski- good morning Graham, picture the scenario in Scotland if LAB/Lib were the current Scottish government. A poster earlier said that his council tax demand was in the mail. Given the above scenario history shows the demand would probably be 20% above the previous year's demand. If they were in power there would be not attempt to replace with a fairer system and the status quo would not only be maintained but exacerbated. Is that what you really want?
50

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 09:58:21
46

So in your opinion there is no politcal bias in the media they just have a go at any body in power?
and yet the same media were attacking the SNP before the election do you no remember the picture of the noose on the front page of the "SCOTTISH" sun?
Another lying git or the same one with a different "Moniker".

Aye well you will see what you want to see from the interview I myself didnt see it so I dont know.
51

HEN BROON 5,

13/03/2008 10:01:46
I am sick and tired of the biased rude and blatant unprofessional manner that Brewer, Campbell, and the odious Wark use when addressing SNP ministers. John Swinney is one of the most decent and well mannered people you could meet in politics, and even he as mild mannered as he is was forced to rebuke the oily Brewer for his ignorant interruptions and tone.

No good evening, and no thank you, are ever offered to the SNP, and constant rude barracking and not allowing Swinney to develop the thread of his policy. Utter contempt oozing from every pore on his body. Why does Brewer stick his head in the deep fat fryer before he goes on air? Does he think it makes him look trendy and young. Wrong, he looks like a Porta Rican pimp. And demonstrates the same manners.

Campbell even told Alex Neil to "be quiet," on one interview last week. They like Labour just cannot hide their political bias and indignation that the SNP have been a resounding success and given Labour, and the union a bloody nose.


Now contrast that with last night when father Cairns and professor Bell were on, they were spoken to politely, not interrupted, allowed to finish every point and there was no disrespect shown at all, what a complete joke BBC Scotland have now become.

No doubt there are pros and cons with every taxation policy and there is no one size fits all. But at the very least we deserve to be allowed to hear every side of the story without the rudeness of a wannabe Paxman dancing to Rule Brittania.
52

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 10:01:53
48

I wouldnt worry about dividend income in todays share climate. All this propaganda p*sh regarding folk living on share dividends ignores that fact that shares are incredibly volitile at the best of times and at the moment they are in dire straights and in my opinion anybody living on share dividends at the present time will need all the tax breaks they can get.
Nobody but nobody in their right mind is going to attempt to live on share dividends alone.
Just more unionist p*sh.
53

jdships,

13/03/2008 10:05:09
One thing that bothers me is how is the shortfall between monies collected and monies required going to be funded ?
£250 m , or whatever, seems an awful lot of cash to find !!
54

Miss H,

13/03/2008 10:07:03
1 Angus John Swinney is the person who developed this policy. He launched the saltire paper a number of years ago that kicked everything off. He was the one who proposed the flat rate of 3p to make it do-able under devolution. It's his policy.

I say this not to start an argument but to illustrate the fact that observers like Margo MacDonald do not really understand things as much as they may think they do. They give their personal opinions to journalists who then print those opinions as though they have any more validity than yours or mine. Though on this issue actually my opinion is more valid than Margo's cause I am an SNP member and she is not.

I agree with Frere Jacques that there is absolutely no point in SNP members and supporters getting hot under the collar about a biased press. We have always had a biased press. There is nothing we can do about it. But we had a biased press during the election and we still won. We can win this one too so let's by all means enjoy ourselves on the Scotsman forum bearing in mind that it does not matter a damn. Nobody votes on the basis of what they read in the Scotsman. And only a very small proportion of the electorate read it anyway.

55

Jock 107,

13/03/2008 10:13:36
#52 Cybercnut

First sensible posting I've seen from you in a while! Good boy, have a biscuit.

#54 MissH
..and fewer read these postings
56

mr angry,

ayrshire 13/03/2008 10:16:06
Much as I like the SNP so far , this will be their downfall if they go ahead. It has too many holes and once it is in place and many more people are paying extra , councils are complaining about cash , services suffer etc , and the tax goes up by the year ,they will get it in the neck.
Far better to stick to council tax where it is , and try to cut it if possible if they have cash.
I currently pay over £2200 and don't expect it to get less under any plan.
57

morris,

edinburgh 13/03/2008 10:16:48
45 AJ Fife,13/03/2008 09:46:34
My sentiments exactly.

They probably think that they will just carry on as before after independence.I personally can see an SBC being formed basically from STV/Grampian ,scrapping BBC(Scotland) and licence fee altogether,creating a new channel funded ONLY by advertising,and buying the pick of programmes from wherever (which is near enough what happens at the moment with STV /Grampian).Some purchases from the BBC in England could still be possible,since they would occupy time lsots which are currently purchased programming anyway, but they would be few and far between. I can see the newly formed SBC being far more selective in whom they employ, and it should be clear that they will NOT show political bias and must present both sides of a story equally or they can leave.I personally cannot see the services of Brewer or Wark being retained. Wark Clements will no doubt sell south of the border to the now truly ENGLISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION which is what it always was anyway.
58

conservative,

Fife 13/03/2008 10:18:35
It would be funny if it wasn't sad to see all of you SNP activists supporting a flawed policy which doen's add up arithmetically and hits the AVERAGE worker harder.

For me, well I'm retired and live in a band G property so I would be miles better off. Does that make it right?

Why do all SNP numpties think that 'conservative' means anything other than what it says - 'cautious and against rapid change'.
59

Fifi la Bonbon,

13/03/2008 10:21:49
Perhaps they could get Bishop Devine to ask more friendly questions.

Funny that in another prominent story on this website where a Bishop is calling the SNP his allies in his campaign to see gay men imprisoned, none of the cybernats have bothered to contribute. I'd have thought they'd be queing up to repudiate this mediaeval minded cleric, but no, not a sausage.
60

Miss H,

13/03/2008 10:24:14
56 Start your analysis on the basis that it is a tax cut not a tax increase. And it is a tax cut targeted to benefit people on low and middle incomes. That is most people in Scotland. So most people will pay less not more. If your problem with it is that you believe it will lead to cuts in services then that is one thing.. What you can't do is claim that it will lead to cuts in services but at the same time lead to many more people paying extra tax - they can't both be true.

But it kind of illustrates the problem that opponents of this policy have. They need to decide what they think is bad about it. Is it bad because it is a tax cut or is it bad because it is a tax increase on hardworking families? It can't be both.

The longer this debate goes on the better because I can see our opponents tying themselves up in tighter and tighter knots.

61

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 10:24:38
53

One of the biggest critisisms of the council tax is its inability to collect the correct amounts due.
The banding system has never taken into consideration the fluctuation of the housing market and therefore and therefore doesnt account for the fluctuation in amounts claimed back in benefits and rebates.
So can it be claimed that council tax raises the correct amount needed for spending or has spending been set by the level collected or has the whole problem with local taxation never been trully accounted???

So why are you asking that question with regards to LIT when it hasnt even been introduced yet and no shortfall has been made apparent.

To say there will be a shortfall in LIT relative to local spending needs is to assume the present council tax system got the balance right in spite of all of its flaws and parameter fluctuations.
I dont have enough faith to believe that do you??
62

HEN BROON 5,

13/03/2008 10:25:17
37 Suomi,Salo,Finland 13/03/2008 09:19:45

Unfortunately the Newsnight prog. is only available until the next one comes up. Here is the link to last nights:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/player/bb_rm_ms_4449133
63

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 10:25:22
58

So where is the math to prove it??
64

Derick fae Yell,

The Flu-afflicted Hoose 13/03/2008 10:25:24
Human beings are capable of sending motorised hostess trolleys to Mars, and then have them drive round digging holes and taking photos. I THINK we might manage to create an IT system that would have either a 'Scotland' tag, or indeed a 'local authority' tag. (Insert Column. Rename Column 'Scotland', 'Fife' etc).

See that wasn't so hard was it?

At 3% I would personally be slightly worse off, but LIT is OK with me because it's fairer. FAIRER.

This is why I am not a 'conservative', and why the Tories just do not get LIT.

Me Ye Olde Parents in a big house they are too old to move out of, and on low fixed income, will be wildly better off. They always used to vote Tory and Liberal - but they think the SNP is the bees knees now!!

Todays best post prize goes to Hen Broon 5 for the 'Porta Rican pimp' comment. Brill! or should that be 'brylcreem'?


65

,

13/03/2008 10:25:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
66

Miss H,

13/03/2008 10:27:19
59 Considering the number of our members who would get banged up if gay men were jailed I think you can take that as a no.

Most of us cybernats prefer to discuss issues that matter to people not barmy bishops.
67

HEN BROON 5,

13/03/2008 10:28:30
58 conservative,Fife 13/03/2008 10:18:35
"It would be funny if it wasn't sad to see all of you SNP activists supporting a flawed policy which doen's add up arithmetically and hits the AVERAGE worker harder."


No figures I have read back that allegation.
68

Doh,

13/03/2008 10:30:39


Another anti-LIT article they must be worried.

I am sure all the objectors to LIT will agree with me that it is deeply worrying that the increases in winter fuel payments to pensioners will be paid from general taxation.

This clearly puts the social contract at risk and taxes hard working famlies.

Perhaps Professor Midwinter could look into this issue.
69

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 10:31:50
65

Good to see the unionists keeping up their fine tradition of trolling under different "MONIKERS" instead of backing up their dubious claims with proof.
70

morris,

edinburgh 13/03/2008 10:36:13
51 HEN BROON 5,13/03/2008 10:01:46

You are absolutely spot on and its there for all fair minded people to see.
It has been going on since the SNP were first allowed on the radio and television of course.
56

It depends upon arithmetic and your income dictates whether you will be better off or not.
At 3% taxation rate you would have to be very wealthy indeed to pay as much as £2200 under LIT ,and incredibly disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
71

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 13/03/2008 10:43:38
The entire unionist establishment has rolled out the propaganda machine for this one. Unsurprisingly. Why? One reason is because the Council Tax is hated - they forget that. Secondly because it's needed and many poor people will be lifted out of poverty immediately because of its introduction. I fancy that most unions will be for it Hamish! You are igoring all the people who think this is a good idea because you think it is your job to try and protect the union and bring down the SNP. I can tell you that a lot of people and organisation will be for this!

And another fantasy about Swinney's heart not being in this. I stood as an SNP candidate almost 20 years ago and a key policy then was LIT. Even then it has been an SNP policy for a long time.

This is at the very heart of SNP philosophy of a social democratic nation. Make no mistake that this policy is something the SNP take extremely seriously. Unionists seldom understand where nationalists are coming from. To imagine that the SNP's heart is not in this is blind stupidity and wishful thinking.

This policy is going to happen and Scotland is going to be a far better place because of it!
72

mr angry,

ayrshire 13/03/2008 10:43:42
#60 We have still to see anything that really shows how the money will be raised , it does not work at 3p and so money must come from somewhere. Also if 80% are going to be better off then the other 20% ( ie most of the wealth earners in the country who pay for most of the services to the other 80% ) will have to pay significant amounts more. This potentially could lead to all those who are mobile leaving , thus making it even worse. LIT is not a panacea , they must still raise the money and history proves that the wealth earners will only take so much before they leave, this blind thinking that taxing the higher earners more and more will work is garbage. Far better to make the lazy unemployed people who do not want to work , get out of their beds, the money saved on dole and the tax paid by this will help th epoor people far more. If we can have jobs for many thousands of foreigners we should have no unemployed.
Cut the welfare dependence and get the wasters working , thats the way to fix the country.
73

HEN BROON 5,

SNP ALBA ;o) 13/03/2008 10:45:49
65 Grahamski,Falkirk 13/03/2008 10:25:38
#51,
"Good to see the nationalists here carrying on the fine SNP tradition of using sectarianism to further their extremist policies.
A piece of advice, if you cannot thole your political heroes being asked straightforward questions, use the off button. Most Tvs have one...."

Presumably your rather limp attempt at playing the sectarian card was my referring to Cairns as father. Is he not a priest? Does the church not advocate that once you are a priest you are always a priest, so the term father is relevant and in no way sectarian.

Presumably you will be able to provide us with evidence of the SNPs sectarianism? I notice your appearances on the Herald becoming less and less as you are filleted and ridiculed on there.

Rumour has it you are the paranoid fanatical nutter who used to post as "Braveheart," on the Herald but gave up after being outed and publicly humiliated. Makes me wonder what state your constituency is in if you can afford to spend your life blogging paranoia on political forums.


Your advice re switching of the TV is not required at this address. Spoken like a true Liebour fanatic who believes he has the God given right to rule people in Scotland, and cannot deal with oppostion, to a smart successful alternative. The shop stewards sit on the opposition benches looking like they have just eaten a wasp, and I love it.

ALBA GU BRATH
74

HEN BROON 5,

13/03/2008 10:49:52
Thanks, #70 morris,edinburgh 13/03/2008 10:36:13. I have e-mailed the BBC on several occasions regarding this but have yet to get a reply. But make no mistake their day is coming and I pray I will be here to witness it.

ALBA GU BRATH
75

qohldr,

13/03/2008 10:52:40
The SNP never expected to win the election that is why they produced an unrealistic, unworkable, uncosted populist manifesto as they never expected to have to deliver it.
Unfortunately for them the system Scotland adopted for electing MSPs meant they did win.
The SNP support mostly voted for them in both the constituency and regionals.
The Labour support voted for them in the constituency but as a protest voted SNP in the regionals which is why Labour has more constituency MSPs than regional and the SNP has more regional MSPs than constituency.
If all their policies are looked at they have moved the goalposts in some way student endowments, police, prescription charges.
This is a good one though they have frozen the CT which puts them in a positive light but do not intend to introduce LIT until just before the next election that way people will not feel the negative effect of it until after the election.
76

morris,

edinburgh 13/03/2008 10:53:26
72
PAYE is self explanatory. 85% of local government is financed via Westminster taxation anyway.IT ALREADY EXISTS !All that the SNP are saying is in Scotland raise 100% of local government finance this way,ie PAY AS YOU EARN.Of course the money still going to LONDON is now under threat under the manufactured disguise that any rebates are payable under systems approved by LONDON but the SNP are in power and the devolved right to raise or lower taxes by 3% in the Scotland Act is only law when it suits LONDON.The rebates applied to the Poll Tax the Council Tax but not an SNP tax!
Anytime you wish to take your Ferengi politics south with you is fine by me.
77

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 10:58:21
72

What doesnt work at 3p??

"this blind thinking that taxing the higher earners more and more will work is garbage"

So who should be taxed then? how can you collect taxes from people who dont have anything to tax???
You can only tax people who can afford to pay those taxes otherwise you end up collecting nothing.

"Far better to make the lazy unemployed people who do not want to work , get out of their beds, the money saved on dole and the tax paid by this will help th epoor people far more."

Are you another one who is gullible enough to believe right wing political propaganda trying to make us all believe the country is infested with a work shy benefit scrounging populous in order to justify their continued policies of making it more difficult for anybody to claim unemployment benefits in spite of the fact that you can only claim if your national insurance contributions are up to date.
How does that fit in with new labour claims of the lowest rate of unemployment figures ever??

Again in case you missed the fact the first time YOU CAN ONLY CLAIM UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT IF YOUR NI CONTRIBUTIONS ARE UP TO DATE and that is only possible if you have been working!!!!!!!!!!
Change yer moniker from mr angry to mr ignorant.
78

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 11:00:24
75

Aye a fine analysis.

What were Labour voters protesting about then???
79

walter,

13/03/2008 11:04:02
#71
Unbelievable truly unbelievable, that is some piece of spin that is, you have went from
Margo MacDonald, the independent MSP who has been in and around Nationalist politics for three decades, said Mr Swinney's low-key performance on local income tax was due to one fact: his heart was not in it.
To
Unionists seldom understand where nationalists are coming from. To imagine that the SNP's heart is not in this is blind stupidity and wishful thinking.

Are you insinuating that Margo is now a supporter of the union.
80

brownlie,

Glasgow 13/03/2008 11:11:50
65 Grahamski,
You still have not answered my question. Do you think the status quo should be observed where the council tax should not just be kept but increasing 20% on a yearly basis? As far as a grown-up discussion is concerned you can correct me if I'm wrong but I understood that John Swinney is offering a consultation period. Is that not the way democracy works. I don't recall a consultation period when the current system was put in place.
81

mr angry,

ayrshire 13/03/2008 11:13:59
#77 you thick moron, if they have never worked they just get money from social, you trying to tell me the hordes that have never done a days work in their lives are not getting money YOU DO NOT NEED TO HAVE PAID A PENNY IN NI TO BE ABLE TO MILK THE SYSTEM. We are being milked by spongers, for dole, social , methadone, housing , etc.
Also as has been shown at 3p there is a massive deficit in the numbers even allowing for the CTB. Plenty of those on the social are also working on the side, not paying any TAX.
Sounds like you are among the numpties that hate anybody that earns a decent living. Get out and earn your own money stop making excuses for sponging off others.
82

Nikostratos,

13/03/2008 11:14:07
#76 Morris

P.A.Y.E is how they want collect this tax as it is the easiest way to collect tax from the ordinary employed people(WHO ARE UNABLE TO FIDDLE THIER INCOME). But what about the considerable numbers of people who do not P.A.Y.E tax.....The self employed and those with small business and large businesses with highly paid tax accountants who can and do disguise their true income and then pay less than they should..The only people who will pay the full amount will be once again the ordinary employed worker who will have there tax taken at source.
83

HEN BROON 5,

13/03/2008 11:16:09
81 brownlie,Glasgow 13/03/2008 11:11:50

Don't hold your breath waiting for that answer ;o)
84

mr angry,

ayrshire 13/03/2008 11:16:43
#76 you dumpling , what would you know, typical loser that would prefer high earners to leave the country. Who would keep you then , might havce to actually stand up and look after yourself instead of being a sponger.
85

walter,

13/03/2008 11:23:24
#80
Are you suggesting that the 47 MSPs that represent 1/3 of the electorate should be left to get on and introduce any policy they wish and the 82 MSPs that represent 2/3 of the electorate should just sit on their hands and do nothing.
I presume you also expect the media to do the exact same.
86

mr angry,

ayrshire 13/03/2008 11:33:12
#83 No use expecting that dumpling to understand, his rubbish in #76 shows he has no idea how the tax or social services works in any way shape or form. As you say it will only be the people on PAYE who will have to pay , the people on social services/unemployed , self employed , people with accountants etc and those working on the side will all be excluded, which as I said previously will mean that a specific group of people will have to pay a large sum to cover the existing budgets.
87

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 11:36:05
#81
Sorry, I thought your question was rhetorical! I believe local taxation should come from a mix of income tax and a property tax. The present system stinks, it needs to be re-organised but I don't believe abondoning property tax is the best way forward.
#84
You won't have seen me on the Herald boards recently. I had a Damascus moment when I was replying to yet another ill-informed, petulant, border-line racist nationalist buffoon and thought to myself, 'life's too short' so stopped.
I really don't ahve time to spend wading through the paranoid dribblings of the lunatic fringe so now give the Herald a wide berth.
88

JayJay,

Right here 13/03/2008 11:38:17
To all you dumplings quoting "fairness" and complaining about CT needing to rise by 20% every year....can't you ignore the question of the method of taxation and start asking why public sector financing needs to have an annual growth curve?
The public service never seems to cut back. They continue to spend away in a vacuum, recruiting ever more people on a final salary scheme, retiring at 60 (or if in a senior role, earlier, with a giant bung). We, the taxpayer, continually have been rammed by giant council tax rises followed by the inevitable service cuts, but no job losses.
Unless someone lances the boil, you can call it council tax, poll tax or local income tax, but it will need to rise every year to accomodate a public sector payroll that seems to only ever grow.
Lets just start with question 1. How much is wasted when we have 32 councils covering 5m people? Discuss.
89

brownlie,

Glasgow 13/03/2008 11:40:16
Mr Angry - for goodness sake, calm down, you'll do yourself a mischief.
Grahamski - a mix of income tax and property tax - see, you're half convinced already! How would that be collected?
90

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 11:45:28
#90
I would suggest that about 80% should come from income tax and should be collected by HMRC, the remaining 20% should come from a property tax with appropriate safeguards to protect the poor and this should be collected by the appropriate local authority. Sound familiar?
91

Worried Scot,

My sprawling, soon to be council tax free country 13/03/2008 11:46:33
Well that's what happens when you elect a SNP government - stupid, half thought out policies proposed by stupid, half thought out politicians elected by stupid, half thought out voters!

Much love to all those in favour of this policy, you are more to be pitied than scorned. xxx
92

brownlie,

glasgow 13/03/2008 12:01:47
91 Graham,
Sounds ominously like the very popular status quo!! Do you also agree that illegal wars should be funded from the 80%? I don't know about you but I abhor the thought that I subsidised the killing of innocent Iraqi children.
93

mr angry,

ayrshire 13/03/2008 12:20:11
#90 I am very calm, just cannot stand numpties that come on and spout rubbish about taxing the supposed wealthy. Us poor gets on PAYE get hammered relentlessly whilst the rich get off free and the spongers bleed us dry. There needs to be a big rethink on social services in this country. How is it possible for so many people to pick up sums of money well above what the minimum wage would pay , indefinitely , for doing absolutely nothing. These people have no shame and ditto our governments who are happy to fork out my hard earned money to keep these wasters voting for them.
A lot more money is wasted on social services than there is on CT. Force local government to budget within their means, ie no CT rises each year and do something about the spongers, we would then have little worries about where the money would come from.
94

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 12:31:46
#93,
Way off topic there but thankfully I haven't funded any 'illegal' wars recently. I also have neither funded or supported the fascist Ba'ath Party or Al-Qeada so I don't have any hand-wringing guilt about their atrocities either.
95

Alfie Bett,

13/03/2008 12:35:35
The LIT proposals of the SNP are regarded by the greater majority of the people to be in favour of them in spite af the anomaly of income generated from shares avoiding LIT,(that MUST be rectified otherwise Labour's rabid dogs like the Paxman wannabe Brewer will be forever on it) but being in a minority government it was never going to be easy to deliver, the present powers of Holyrood are too meagre to push against Westminster opposition and it would always require the support of Lib/Dems,(fair weather friends if there ever was)forget Labour they would never support an SNP policy irrespective of its merits or fairness to the Scottish people its just not in their politically bigoted mindset.
I think the Scottish government will just need to let this one go in this parliament in spite of its appeal to the majority but in doing so should highlight the reasons why it cannot be pursued at present, Holyrood needing real fiscal powers,Westminster withholding funds that rightfully belong to the Scottish people and Labour/Tory opposition.
96

Fifi la Bonbon,

13/03/2008 12:52:03
66 - some help would be welcome, then (holds breath, faints).
97

Arfur,

13/03/2008 12:53:55
I am one of the few that will actually pay more. I am however fine with that as it is not much more and it is a far fairer way of collecting tax.

As for the media they are shocking towards the SNP.

Another thing - has the hootsman not got the brains to realise that as nationalism and national pride is rising their sales are going down? In business this is what is called a trend......they are generally not that hard to spot. And how do they combate this downward trend in sales....get even more vicious towards the SNP......tubes.
98

Arfur,

13/03/2008 12:54:29
whhhooowwwhhoo 100
99

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 13/03/2008 13:00:15
"On Tuesday of this week, Mr Swinney went on BBC's Newsnight Scotland programme to defend his plans for a local income tax. He was hesitant, passive and flat, repeatedly failed to answer straightforward questions and was left buffeted by the withering attacks of Gordon Brewer, the host."

Problem SNP politicians have is that outwith their shared narrow belief in so called "independence" they really struggle with the nitty gritty of policy details, whatever it is. Their pledges are not policies as they have rarely costed things out. As far as the LIT proposals go there is no doubt it will take us LibDems to properly explain the detail as to how it will more fairly benefit not only the majority of Scots but also the majority of citizens throughout the UK. It is a federal UK wide policy for our party, not something hatched up to serve the propaganda machine of the gNATS.
100

Miss H,

13/03/2008 13:08:43
72 Mr Angry. It was never intended to raise the exact same amount - that's why it is a tax cut. I really don't know where you get the idea that only 20% of people earn wealth and pay tax. That's just not the case. Under this scheme everybody who pays tax will pay the same proportion - 3%. So yes someone earning a high wage will pay more money than someone earning a low wage but they will be paying the same proportion of their income as everyone else. At the moment people on lower wages pay a much bigger proportion of their income in council tax than people who are wealthier.

If you are talking about reforming social security then I agree that is something that should be done though I think it is a bit more complex than simply saying people are lazy. One of the issues with council tax for example is that once people become liable to pay it they can actually end up worse off than when they were not in work. So that is a disincentive to work. If you had a flat rate LIT of 3p that wouldn't happen because taking 3% off a low wage would be less than the council tax.
101

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 13:09:38
82 Mr Ignorant.

No what I am telling you for a fact is there are no HORDES of unemployed sponging on the state and for years nobody but nobody gets a penny in unemployment benefit unless their NI contributions are up to date not even school leavers. The tories put a stop to school leavers going straight onto the dole.

If you think different then obviously you are sitting on some valuable evidence and are ready to produce it right??? do you have a complete list of names belonging to this HORDE of unemployed??
New Labour tell us that the unemployment figure has never been lower when what they really mean is less people qualify for unemployment benefits than ever before.
Youre being taxed to death because of corrupt politicians not because of a fictious army of scroungers.
102

G,

dundy 13/03/2008 13:12:11
#102
2 true! Swinney looks like a genius beside his SNP cabinet cronies but like a buffoon in the real world....his attempts to justify his "budget" where a lesson in believing your own rheotoric!

Welcome to SNPworld - where everything is better served nationalist-style.....
103

Miss H,

13/03/2008 13:13:44
102 Hmm.. some of us still remember Charlie Kennedy's impressive grasp of the detail of that particular policy!

104

Alan B,

13/03/2008 13:16:06
Have to say i think Gordon Brewer is an excellent interviewer. It is interviewers like Glen Campbell that i think are very poor and biased. Campbell particularly annoys as he will give labour politicians such an easy ride and never follow up a line of questioning.

#102 u have got to be kidding Nicol Stephans could not explain anything. teh only lib dem with any credibility in the sp is Ross Finnie and he is not leadership material. Can see the lib dems being wiped out unless they start getting their act together, and maybe get someone like kennedy in the sp.

"It is a federal UK wide policy for our party, not something hatched up to serve the propaganda machine of the gNATS."
That is exactly the problem ur party have. A small narrow mindedness and an inability to see how stupid it is. U complain about the nats wanting to bring in a policy u urself want (albeit with a few modifications). Somehow the snp supporting a LIT is propaganda while the lib dems wanting the same thing is ok.
105

kimba,

13/03/2008 13:31:33
Ok then,seems at least a third of scots are not happy with the way westminster runs things in Scotland,but the majority are; only one answer to this dilemma,all those who are not happy with the situation should pack their bags and pish off,my nan was born and bred in dundee a more patriotic scot you will never find.but she is a staunch unionist who has lived through most things and believes in unity not division,at 86 she is considering moving to England to live with us because as she says " I CANNAE SING FOR THE QUEEN" hope all you snp bigots are proud!
106

,

13/03/2008 13:34:50
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107

Freshford Fresh,

Dundee 13/03/2008 13:39:51
#110 Kimba, I'm absolutely astonished you haven't replied to The Dark Side's post at #103.

By the way, in Dundee we have two very nice SNP politicians called Shona Robison and Joe Fitzpatrick, I'm sure either would welcome your gran's vote at the next election.
108

The Master,

13/03/2008 13:40:56
#112 Priestie: Scotland is Catalonia without the sun and you know it! The case for either national region becoming fully autonomous is extremely weak, so shut it!
109

Worried Scot,

13/03/2008 13:42:06
113,

I resent the way you insult Kimba's gran, she's obviously an intelligent lady who would therefore never vote SNP.

Have some respect for your elders!
110

Freshford Fresh,

Dundee 13/03/2008 13:46:16
#114 Jack of all posts, master of none.
111

,

13/03/2008 13:48:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
112

Freshford Fresh,

Dundee 13/03/2008 13:48:32
If you consider voting SNP an insult you have a right to be worried. Not long now.
113

brownlie,

glasgow 13/03/2008 13:48:36
Kimba
I should imagine your gran still remembers a Labour Party that cared for other people and not the present party of proven liars, warmongers cheats and self-seeking politicians......
114

malkster,

Scotland 13/03/2008 13:50:26
There are always going to be questions about anything as new as a LIT. The worrying point is that he did not seem to know or be prepared to answer the questions.
115

kimba,

13/03/2008 13:51:00
111,she'll be pleased to know that,mum and dad are going to see her this weekend flying the union flag from the car aeriel, we all know it will be ripped off but we will not be intimidated by the tartan taliban.
116

The Master,

13/03/2008 13:53:43
#119 brownlie: that's rich coming from a party with a Tartan Tory North Eastern Heartland! Ooh, I vote SNP because they'll save me from paying band H tax on my pile in Perthshire! Look how they've already frozen the council tax: it was getting so bad that I was contemplating letting go of my 4x4! Go Nicola go!
117

Stu_R_20,

13/03/2008 13:55:30
#106
I don't know if this is just your general observation or whether it's a comparison to Scottish Labour. If the latter then may I remind you of a few intellectual heavyweights in Scottish Labour: Kerr, Curran, Jamieson, Baillie, Boyack...
To be honest only in the dirty constituencies where people vote to ensure their benefits are not cut could such imbeciles be re-elected
118

Freshford Fresh,

Dundee 13/03/2008 13:55:53
#117 Nice one. #119 Here here. #121 It'll be fine this weekend, the Tartan Taliban will still be celebrating last week's monumental win over England.
119

kimba,

13/03/2008 13:56:59
113. They would have to wait 'til hell freezes over, they may be extremly nice people,it's their politics that stink.
120

Freshford Fresh,

13/03/2008 14:00:58
#125 That's a shame. It's always nice to be on the winning side.
121

Arfur,

13/03/2008 14:10:50
kimba - as usual you show yourself as the tool that you are.
122

Steafan,

13/03/2008 14:16:55
All I can say, is thank goodness for Youtube. We can see the clips that we miss, and verify for ourselves. THis article is a load of pish, and is basically full of lies and slander.
123

Highland Mighty,

13/03/2008 14:17:33
112. And AGAIN you bore us all with your shrill rants about the 'right to be an independent nation'.

No-one is questioning this 'right'! Anywhere and everywhere has the right to be an independent nation!

Why can't you get that to sink into your head? Is the Alpine air down there making you dizzy?
124

Highland Mighty,

13/03/2008 14:21:00
112. Who is denying Scotland the "right to be independent"? Who are this "variety of self-interested, selfish parties, some of whom weild way too much power for all our good"?

Are you referring to the overwhelming majority of Scots who prefer the status quo? Is it the democratic will of Scots that is stopping the small nationalist minority from getting its way?

Boo to them, if so. Boo, I say.
125

Angus Ogg,

13/03/2008 14:22:30
#11,

You tell me not to "post sh1te".

Is that the best you can do in your poor effort to reason and debate?

There is an excellent television series called "Studio 60" created by one of America's best writers. Aaron Sorkin.

In one of the episodes all the writers start talking about the "Pajama People". It takes a minute for the penny to drop, but it turns out this is a name becoming common currency for all the saddo's that have no life, and exist in their bedsit at a computer terminal abusing others on the internet. The pajama bit because they cannot be bothered to get dressed.

I take it by the abusive nature of your opening gambit, and the lack of any substance in your reply, you are to all intents and purposes a Pajama Person?

LOL.
126

Am Bodach,

13/03/2008 14:36:52
103 The Dark Side,13/03/2008 13:01:59

Ah for Gods sake can you no shut the bloody gate when you come out. You've only let the stinky thick kimba out, this mad cow disease is really taking hold of her it really is time she was put down.

kimba when you go out driving don't bother with a flag on your car just hang a pair of your knickers out the window and watch people run for cover apparently the smell gives pigs the boak, according to Meths.

No one is as thick as you not even a spineless sassenach. I heard your so thick that your dog teaches you to fetch, and you were caught trying to drown your neighbours goldfish. You and your mother were overheard having a conversation is a field.

You:"Mum what do you think of this mad cow disease?"

Mum: "How the fcuk do I know, I'm a tractor."

Your so thick you won't even get that.

PS When you go to Dundee lets hope it's your head they rip of and not your flag. Does your brother still go up The Law at night wearing womens clothes, I've heard he is very busy up there on his knees like all the English are now, fair play he has to pay his rent somehow.
127

jdships,

13/03/2008 14:37:12
61
"So why are you asking that question with regards to LIT when it hasnt even been introduced yet and no shortfall has been made apparent."

Don't understand your point !
This figure has been mentioned by MSP's and media therfore I am interested to know what the answer is .
I am quite aware of the failure of the " council tax" aystem and am not criticising the SNP initiative - in fact I welcome it !
Are you suggesting therefore I shouldn't be asking questions re this "proposed" change in taxation ?
That surely is part of my democratic right - trust you are aware of that !!



128

Angus Ogg,

13/03/2008 14:38:23
#54, Miss H,

Now that's more like it. Reasoned debate. Thankyou.

I agree with most of what you say. Especially that Gordon Brewer over cooked his interview and John Swinney. What I saw was Swinney being fair minded, patient, and most clearly got the point across to Brewer that he was rabidly interrupting.

Miss H, The comment I disagree with you on is when you say "Nobody votes on the basis of what they read in the Scotsman" and by inference - nobody votes on what they read on the Scotsman Fourum.

I do.

The only political party I have been a member of was the Labour Party.

Last time I voted SNP.

Ignoring the rabid ultra dogmatic factions of far Unionist and far Nationalist that appear everywhere and haunt these boards, there is some decent reasoned debate.

I agree that Council Tax is a mess. I know John Swinney. I think a great deal of his abilities. You just need to see how he manages to run a first class constituency office in Blairgowrie, whilst fully discharging his duties as Finance Minister. No mean feat.

My only problem is that whilst LIT is a good idea in principle, it has too many leaks to be practicable.

Rabid Gordon was fixated with the Big House Investment Income example paying no LIT. My concern is the exodus from Scotland of job creators. Not because of the fact that LIT is unfair. Just because they will follow the most efficient personal tax system for them. That is move over the border.

Too many leaks in LIT. Back to the d rawing board in my view.


The Poll Tax was a great idea. In principle. Trouble was it had too many holes.

The worst mistake we all make is not to learn by our past mistakes. So LIt as it stands is a dead duck.
129

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 14:40:38
No 3 britsout, I agree with you entirely. I also saw the interview. The problem with Gordon is he is trying to be Jeremy Paxton (even down to the cheeky grin as he signs off) and impress the viewer with his incisive interviewing style.

Gordon, first of all, just be yourself, that's more than enough for us. Next, take your time and help us understand what's going on by revealing the facts via intelligent questioning.

John Swinney couldn't have been more honest if he tried during that interview but because you had decided to 'nail him' that night all your questioning with accompanying aggressive attitude meant most of us were not much further forward than when we began.

Only the bigoted would not have had sympathy for Chancellor Swinney by the end of the interview. Take it easy Gordon and let's see more of you and less of Jeremy.
130

,

13/03/2008 14:40:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
131

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 14:46:20
#134
Agreed. The positive thing that comes from this is that Labour and the Tories are going to have to come up with a system of property tax which takes into account the ability to pay.
On Newsnight Mr Swinney should just have answered truthfully. Instead he tried to be a 'politican' about it and failed miserably. Mr Swinney is a politician in a party I have nothing but contempt for. As a man he strikes me as one of the good guys. His inability to be a weasel and liar should be a badge of honour not a reason to mock him.
132

kimba,

13/03/2008 14:47:25
124. MONUMENTAL WIN! so winning by a few points is monumental!
133

walter,

13/03/2008 14:51:52
#94
Typical, must be a nat.
134

Sgurr,

13/03/2008 14:56:10
The usual stupidity from the usual quarters.

LIT has its weaknesses, but so does the council tax. I doubt if it will get through though anyway. The fact the fibdems are supporting this makes me nervous. I'm worried that any idea backed by them is the equivalent of a dead canary down a coal mine. Total lead balloon!

What I would like to see is more done to hold councils to account over their commitment to, year on year, require more cash and provide worse service.
135

Sgurr,

13/03/2008 14:57:17
138 - troll - shut up.
136

,

13/03/2008 15:00:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
137

The Master,

13/03/2008 15:03:58
#134 "Angus Ogg": you are John Swinney, aren’t you! Is this the usual "sources close to" or "friend of" type comment from a Minister? If so, I must say that you're the only Nat I have half way respect for: I know that deep down you're more of a devolution max man and that you see right through the jobs tax for the piece of folly that it undoubtedly is!
138

The Vulture,

13/03/2008 15:14:42
#137 Grahmski: since when doesn’t CT take accoount of the ability to pay? When looking for a property, any sensible person thinks first: how much of my income will I have to put aside for CT purposes? For goodness sake, if you’re on your uppers, you buy a place in Moredun rather than the Grange! Get real, man! Like I’ve said many times before, this is all about saving money for retired people living in huge mansions in Perthshire! End of.

#138 kimba: even with the unpopularity of Labour in London, they only managed to scrape it! Monumental prats: that's what the Nats are!
139

kimba,

13/03/2008 15:15:55
132. You really need your mouth washing out with carbolic soap,and your ears syringing;I said my mum and dad had the union flag on their car. Think my nan is better off with us until bigoted nerds like you are locked up and the key thrown away,you do yourself and your country a great disservice.
140

Sgurr,

13/03/2008 15:19:22
145 - stop coming out with carbolics.
141

Rasputin 2,

13/03/2008 15:21:28
#141 Sgurr@ I notice even the Fib Dems don’t back your party’s ridiculous independence policy!
142

Andrew Allan,

13/03/2008 15:21:43
To me the local income tax is a sure winner. Unlike the poll tax it targets the wage earner instead of the number of people in the property, sure there needs to be a way to tax those who are not wage earners but own vast amounts in investments. Ther greatest shame here is a Labour government showing indications of putting in place means to weaken the welfare state by introducing withdrawing support to councils who would give reductions in the amount of tax paid to those on low incomes, the founders of the welfare state will be rolling over their graves as we speak.
143

kimba,

13/03/2008 15:25:01
144. I visit Scotland on a regular basis,usually every 2-3 weeks to visit my nan in Dundee,the anti English/British rhetoric is growing at a alarming rate,even though over two thirds of scots do not support the SNP.
144

Sgurr,

13/03/2008 15:30:45
Rasputin - nope, the same analogy holds! Fibdems want Unionism...canary down a coal mine!!!
145

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 15:32:06
They have shut down the religious gay thread.
Anyway Miss H to answer yer question.

431 Miss H,13/03/2008 14:14:29
425 You have completely lost me. I just don't get your agenda. I don't think you do either to be honest.

I dont have an agenda I am not a politician I have concerns and the concerns I have with regards to this thread are religious hypocricy and the peripheral concern which has cropped up regarding political lobbying in this case by Gay rights lobbyists.
I dont see why somebody should have the right to use their sexual preference as a political lever. Especially when somebody else with a different sexual preference cant. They have the right to be gay they dont have the right to use this fact to alter political legislation.
Are you advocating that gay people should have the same rights as a women has for being a women or a man has for being a man because they are gay and not because they are a man or a woman???
Is that no clear enough?
146

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 13/03/2008 15:42:59
On balance LIT appears fairer than CT, but even LIT does not reflect the true ability to pay. Imagine the position 3 people identical salaries, 3 identical houses. All will pay the same on either system. The first owns his house outright - no rent, no mortgage. The second pays rent. The third is a first time buyer mortgaged to the hilt. With the abolition of MIRAS many years ago the mortgage payer will always be at a financial disadvantage. The size of the property does not reflect ability to pay either. Why do local authorities need to raise their own tax. It's how they spend it that the electorate are concerned about. They already receive most funding from central grant. Same as Holyrood.
LIT also fails to take account those who work for themselves but do it through a close company paying Corporation Tax. Also rich people who can afford to live on investments and do not need to work. Perhaps secondhomes and high value properties may need to remain in a Council Tax system.
147

Jock 107,

13/03/2008 15:46:23
#151 Cybernut

Are you lost? Trapped in the mineshaft of another thread?

Anyway, your point also applies to religious organisations, who have no right to use their religious preference as a political lever.
148

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 13/03/2008 15:49:34
As an aside, and refering to post 151, the news last light referred to the case of a gay Iranian who was fighting deportation because under Sharia LAw they publically execute gays by hanging. Is this the same Sharia Law that the Government allows privileges to in the shape of Sharia mortgages and tax breaks for Stamp duty. Are these mortgages available for couples in a civil partnership? Or do their Islamic Banks tell them to go hang!
149

The Master,

13/03/2008 15:56:22
#148 Andrew Allan: just like the poll tax, LIT hits wage earners who contribute nothing just now (perhaps because they live with their parents). It also hits two income families living in modest accommodation. I really can’t get over the political naivety of you Nats: when you create losers, you’re just asking for political trouble. Witness the collapse of the Tory vote in Scotland after the introduction of the community charge and weep! Incidentally, I notice that it’s already been labelled “the job tax”, just as the community charge was labelled “the poll tax”! Are you Nats ready to rumble???
150

Jock 107,

13/03/2008 16:05:53
#155 Waster

A better label than the "job tax" would be the "income tax", or maybe even the "local income tax". I wonder why no-one's though of that... Swinney may be a bit of a ditherer, but the tax will apply to all income, not just salaries.

Local tax based on ability to pay - it's a long way from the poll tax. Sure, the live with parents earners may pay more, but they just need to renegotiate their housekeeping contribution with their Mammies.
151

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 16:09:28
155

So why isnt the national income tax labelled the job tax then? what world do you actually live in?
You are still trying so hard to connect the LIT with the poll tax when in fact they are complete opposites.
I see unionist desperation growing almost daily.
Aye I did witness the tory collapse in Scotland which is why I recognise it happening to Labour sorry I mean NEW labour not to be confused with the original party.
The SNP doesnt actually have to do anything at all they only have to allow Labour and the tories to be themselves.

LIT hits wage earners who contribute nothing ???

The poll tax on the other hand hit people who didnt actually earn or own anything. See the difference yet??
152

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 13/03/2008 16:14:14
The Gordon Brewer interview was a problem of substance. It would be ok to ask a question over and over again, like Paxman, but only if that question gets to the very heart of the matter. We are talking about turning a country into a social democracy by introducing a new tax system and all Gordon Brewer was fixated with was 0.0001% of the rich. Now perhaps we can forgive John Swinney for expecting a reasoned conversation about a new tax system and the philosophy behind it instead of an aspect of it which is on the extremely cold periphery of the subject. Clearly Gordon was going for some Kudos. Shame he didn't persue Wendy so diligently.

Anyway, if you are wondering how the very rich will do, the wealthiest 2% of the population will pay ten times more under the new tax than they currently pay under Labour's much loved, cripple the poor Council Tax!

The fact is that this new tax will immediately lift thousands out of poverty. Why do you think Labour have all their attack dogs in the press out to lie about it?
153

boybilly,

Buckie 13/03/2008 16:23:08
Scots used to be proud of their true s
Socialism. Now we're a ragbag of greedy pigs all trying to get our snouts in the trough. Just because we have corrupt politicians without honour or conscience does not mean we should become like them. Rather than become the subsidy junkies we are oft accused of being, let's strive to act as one nation proud to take on our fair share of responsibilities. Local Income Tax is only the first stage in building a fair society. From each according to their means to each according to their needs. Everone with income (including deemed)from whatever source pays tax. Personal property, including land and buildings, is acqired from taxed income and the acquisition by the exercise of personal choice. No one should be punished for making that choice nor should they expect to be rewarded. Let the comparison with the "poll" tax cease and consign the iniquitous Council Tax to the dustbin of history.
154

Miss H,

13/03/2008 16:23:26
151 I still don't get you. You arte not clear at all. Are you saying that people should not campaign to end discrimination? Were the suffragettes wrong? Was the civil rights movement in the States wrong? Was the civil rights movement in Northern Ireland wrong?

Were those people using the fact that they were women, or black or Catholic as a political lever or were they saying it is unfair that I cannot vote because I am a woman, it is unfair that I am segregated because I am black, it is unfair that I am discriminated against because I am a Catholic.

Personally I think they had every right to campaign for equal rights. I think everybody should be treated equally and have the same rights and indeed the same responsibilities regardless of their gender, their race, their religion or their sexual orientation.

If you agree with that then I don't know what you are going on about frankly. You started off saying that gay people have all the same rights that heterosexual people have such as the right to get married. But they don't. You got that wrong. If they did then we wouldn't be having this conversation so why not just agree that there should be no discrimination against people because they are gay and also no discrimination against people because they are not gay and leave it at that.

155

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 16:27:17
#142
Your post illustrates exactly why I give the Herald bords a wide berth.
They are full of rancid racists shouting their nasty bigotry at each other.
The fact the Herald had to close their forums down TWICE because of dirty nationalist lies and the lying liars who tell them should give everybody an idea of how trully repellant the nats in full baying mob mode are.
156

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 16:30:30
161. Ther Herald twice shut the political comments down because of you and your ilk. I think it was your defense of criminality in Labour's admitted law breaking - clearly the Herald did not like its forum being used to promote law breaking - a sensible attitude.

157

walter,

13/03/2008 16:38:40
#157
How can you see unionist desperation growing almost daily.
Correct me if I am wrong but are the Lib/Dems not unionist and don't they endorse the LIT.
The nats are relying on the unionist to get this policy through.
Nats cannot seem to differentiate between the 3 unionist parties and support for the union and then complain that the English cannot distinguish between England and Britain
158

The Master,

13/03/2008 16:38:40
#156 Jock 107: a controversial tax which is going to prove an administrative nightmare to introduce (witness the tussle with the Inland Revenue already if you don’t believe me!) Are you sure the jobs tax doesn’t have anything in common with the poll tax? I notice the Tories aren’t touching this one with a barge poll and you’d imagine that it would be something that would appeal to them (it’ll benefit Tory/SNP voters in large houses, after all!)

Sorry, but I still can’t believe that the Nats have allowed themselves to get involved in the tangled web of local government finance! If anything’s going to drag down the SNP’s popularity (and quite possibly support for independence with it), it’s this fiasco! As someone who hates the SNP and all it purports to stand for, I’m just going to sit back and watch the fun! I agree that you got off to a good start in government (opinion pollwise), but you know as well as I do that you’ve hit the buffers with this one!

#162 Spook/the poor man's Ivan Sproule: I might have known you'd be a winner out of all this as someone on a low wage who's obviously overstretched himself by buying an expensive flat! However, there aren't many in your position and, as with the poll tax, the losers are going to make their discontent known at the ballot box!
159

The Master,

13/03/2008 16:40:12
#163: pray tell what you're on about! Sounds juicy! #142 has been deleted, so I don't know what this is all about.
160

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 16:41:03
#161
The Herald boards were shut down because nationalist supporters made vile claims about Ms Alexander and The Herald was advised they were actionable by their in-house lawyer. To use the parlance of newspapers it was 'legalled', and the Herald withdrew access to the boards.
This happened again for exactly the same reason.
161

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 16:41:19
166. The Master

the Herald twice shut down comments on political stories (Wendy Alexander and her sleazy law breaking) when Grahamski kept throwing tantrums. Not that juicey.
162

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 16:42:34
167. I think the reason was that your hysterical defence of Labour, when Labour admitted 120 sleazy acts of law breaking, was encouraging others to break the law. That is something the Herald thought was reckless so they suspended comments.
163

brownlie,

Glasgow 13/03/2008 16:43:28
The Master
As I live in Glasgow it would be difficult for me to be a Tartan Tory living in Perthshire. I don't belong to a party but you cannot deny my comments re Labour.
Huntly Loon,
there are many examples of unfairness in the present system. My sister lives near you in Inverness. She has just retired on a meagre pension after 43 years as a nurse. Out of that pension she had to pay nearly a thousand pounds in council tax on a modest terraced house. Her son who is a bank director with a huge salary has his own house just outside Inverness and only has to pay £600 more than his mother. The council tax takes no account of the vast disparity in their income.
164

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 13/03/2008 16:44:00
You can spot the trolls, their points have no substance but only they think they are relevant eg. Walter, Master etc.

Look guys, this new tax is the easier than the Council Tax to administer.

However the most important point is that it is so good for the poor that thousands will be lifted out of poverty immediately after it is introduced. You've had the rhetoric about social justive, now you have the reality - under the SNP.
165

Florence,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 16:45:04
Gordon Brewer's interview is a misnomer. It was a rant. A one point he was actually shouting at Mr. Swinney. I don't know why Swinney didn't walk out and I just wish the SNP would refuse to go on their Labour-loving, unprofessional programmes. It does the SNP government no good - whatever they say is deliberately misconstrued and misrepresented. It's a dreadful situation to have in what is supposed to be a democracy and something one could have expected in a totalitarian Russia. There must be some recourse but I'm not sure what. Would complaints to the Broadcasting Standards Commission be a start? If they received enough complaints surely they would have to do something?
166

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 13/03/2008 16:47:06
Florence, the BBC receive so many official complaints about their own anti-SNP bias they've stopped processing them..
167

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 16:48:33
#168, #169
Please don't infect these boards with your pathetic lies.
Still, at least you haven't started with the racist rants...yet.
168

malkster,

Scotland 13/03/2008 16:50:00
#171

Oh come on be serious, it is I beleive a fairer tax, there will be problems implementing it but it is NOT going to lift thousands of poor people out of poverty and it is NOT a revoulution in social justice. T
169

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 16:51:06
160

You cant get rid of discrimination by discriminating.
Non of the above groups you mentioned discriminated within the area they were fighting for.
For example the suffragettes fought for all womens rights not just heterosexual womens rights or did they?
The civil rights movement in the US fought for black peoples rights not just heterosexual black peoples rights or did they?
And the same can be said for the Northern Ireland civil rights movement.
A political lobby made for a specific issue or group is discriminate by its very nature.
And its all well and good when this group gets to the point were it has acheived all of its initial goals of equality but then what? does it pack up and go home? or does it keep fighting for more and more and more.
Who actually gets to decide when equality has been reached? are women equal to men in the UK or have they taken over? it all depends on who you ask.
170

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 16:51:37
174. Grahamski, I have never posted anything remotely racist, as I deplore racism in all forms.

You rarely post anything remotely resembling the truth. You are a sad new Labour hack who defends Trident, Iraq, inheritance tax cuts for millionaires and then bleats about the "vulnerable".

You also denied New Labours collaboration with rendition flights.

171

Angus Ogg,

13/03/2008 16:56:13
#143,

No I am not John Swinney. He is my MSP. That is fact.

It is also a fact that you are an abuser.

I am OK if you want to indulge in self-abuse as long as you don't frighten the horses.

With all due respect, I am not a Nat. I am not a Lab, and most certainly not a Lib. Nor am I a Conservative. I am a human being, born in Glasgow, Scottish and British.

I also make my own mind up on who to vote for based on reasoned argument.

What makes me smile a lot, is that all the ultra-Unionists, and ultra-Nats are not the ones that will count in the next election. They are dogmatic and entrenched in their ways and will NEVER change their vote. As such, and it is an uncomfortable truth, they don't count. Literally they dont. For their dogmatic votes cancel each ultra faction out with a zero net effect.

For anyone with an ounce of thought or comrehension will understand it is the floating voter who is in the fortunate position of deciding whether our next First Minister will be Alex Salmond or Wendy Alexander (sorry God forbid); or Nicol Stephen (far worse than Wendy); or Annabel Goldie (OK if you want Matron for boss); or more likely some young political star rising through Labour ranks for them to sort themselves out (cant see any yet).

The reasoned argument for my presenting that as fact, is that the SNP are in by one MSP. So next election may very well be marginal. Ergo the floating voter will decide. The abused floating voter may well be put off by the ultra-Unionist or the ultra-Nationalist.

However, if Alex Salmond maintains his leadership, stature, and competent ability, I think he will be returned by a significant majority.

Now Master Baiting Pajama Man, if you want to abuse, fine. If you want to debate, that is better.
172

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 16:56:49
160

Actually thats a point from a gay point of view non of the groups you mentioned actually achevied anything for them so from a gay point of view then no none of the groups were right were they?
Nobody considered the sexual preferences of the women or the black people or the Irish when they made their demands why not??
173

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 16:57:04
#174
Course you deplore it, you and Ron Atkinson both.
Still, at least now that you've blurted out your opposition to racism it'll be harder for you to use those sly anti-English references you're so keen on at the Herald.
174

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 17:00:06
181. I have never posted anything anti-English. Please desist with your Jackie-Baillie crib sheet, new Labour speak spin and distortion. Next you will be telling everyone I have WMD in my garden ready to be launched at 45 minutes notice...
175

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 17:01:49
180. You are making little sense. Women were discriminated against because they were women. Black people were discriminated against because of their colour. Gay people are discriminated against because of their sexuality.
176

Highland Mighty,

13/03/2008 17:01:57
So the nickname has already been given, the 'Job Tax'?

I suppose you can't call it 'income tax' as that is what we all pay to HMRC and reports about a changes in income tax will just confuse people. And it's not going to be a 'local income tax' so that label would just be a lie.

So the 'live with parents', 'house-sharing' and the 'two-income' crowd are scr-wed straight away, with only the latter ever going to be well-off.
177

Highland Mighty,

13/03/2008 17:03:26
182. If you are that close to the tram route, I hope you own that house as its price is about to jump up if Manchester, Sheffield and S London's house prices are anything to go by.
178

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 17:04:07
186. Drinks are on Spook then.
179

The Master,

13/03/2008 17:06:51
#178 Poor Man’s Sproule: if someone on a large wage chooses to live in a modest house, that’s their choice. In the real world, however, the bigger your wage, the bigger your house: you must know that! The great virtue of the current system is that it works, unlike the poll tax which it replaced. The SNP have opened a can of worms with this one: the reluctance of the Inland Revenue to collect LIT is just the start of the many problems which they are going to experience over this, mark my words!
180

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 13/03/2008 17:12:29
Malkster:
"it is I beleive a fairer tax, there will be problems implementing it but it is NOT going to lift thousands of poor people out of poverty and it is NOT a revoulution in social justice."

Malkster, there are a lot of people just under the poverty level. This tax will in many of these cases dramatically alter their income and will lift them above that level. I never said a revolution in social justice but it does contribute significantly to it.

Look, if you can look at the income of tens of thousands of Scotland's poor and remember we have the worst poverty in Western Europe you'll see how little people have. It's really awful. The difference this will make to their lives is going to be really significant. For example it is not inconceivable that someone on a low wage could save 50 quid a month. Nothing for me but for tens of thousands in Scotland that may be an increase of 25% of their disposable income. That's pretty radical! I agree though that it's only a start but it sets the tone for good things to come..
181

walter,

13/03/2008 17:16:44
Councils collect 20% of their monies from those that are resident in their area, the other 80% is paid from central government.
Those that work pay income tax to central government and the more they earn the more they pay.
Since they pay more in through income tax and 80% comes from central government we can presume that they already pay more towards council spending.
Is it that hard to expect that the 20% collected locally is done in a fair way which neither the CT or LIT is.
Nice to know I have become English and even though I have periods when I do not comment for days I am a troll and all because I am not a nat.
182

Jock 107,

13/03/2008 17:18:38
#180 Cyberunt

Back to questions again, rather than reasoned points? Is your dog gay? Have you asked him?
183

erchie,

at hame 13/03/2008 17:20:40
ive got relations in gloustershire that are green wi envy because we have a government in holyrood that is at least showing a bit of ambition for scotland.Down there all theyve ever known has been tory then labour then tory then labour then back to tory again.We have a third choice in the snp (the fibs are to much of an irrelevance to mention)... No tax is ideal and no one likes to pay it.At least our government is showing the political will to make the changes to make scotland better.Keep it up snp. your miles ahead o the rest
184

Stephen fae Scotland,

Folsom 13/03/2008 17:36:10
The Gnats are starting to gently unstitch over this issue... aboot time tae!

Their venal attitude to even their own (talking about the shameful treatment of Margo - as wise and honest woman, and one of the cleverest people i have ever met in Scottish politics) is mirrored by the abusive tone of many of the contributions in this thread.

If yous canny behave like adults - get oot of the kitchen - afore ye burn yersels!

Boot ott the Gnats (in case no one heard me say if afore)
185

The Master,

13/03/2008 17:38:48
#193 Spook/Sproule’s maestro: it’s true that I’ll be a winner but my opposition is based on principle, just as with the poll tax. I just feel that Swinney knows full well that this system is unworkable in practice and full of anomalies, but he feels compelled to champion it because the party sees it as a way to pick yet another fight with Westminster. That’s who I am: whenever I see a policy that’s total folly (such as the SNP’s independence policy, the anti nuclear strategy or this), I just have to kick it to bits. Btw, three ridiculous and unworkable policies are more than enough for any party to be getting on with: only the SSP or Solidarity have more.
186

The Vulture,

13/03/2008 17:42:58
#195 erchie: hasn’t it dawned on you that the SNP are to Scotland what the Tories are to England? You’re not the sharpest card in the pack, are you?
187

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 17:43:38
#197
Absolutely, I think if the SNP had realised that they would take most seats at the last election they wouldn't have made so many ridiculous and undeliverable promises. But they did and hell mend them, their infantile attempts at always blaming England is already wearing thin.
They shame our country with their constant girning and greeting.
188

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 17:45:47
199. ...Girned and greeted Grahamski....
189

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 17:46:51
Said Ayrshire in a whiny wee voice...
can we call it a draw now?
190

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 17:47:46
199. Promises like:

- saving A&E departments at Monklands and Ayr?
- aboloshing prescription charges?
- abolishing bridge tolls?
- freezing the council tax?
- introducing RET for Western Isles ferries?
- scrapping the graduate endowment?

Do tell, Grahamski, if the SNP policies are so awful, why did Labour not even vote on the budget which contained most of these?

191

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 17:49:05
201. Odd, I typed that. Does your computer speak to you?
192

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 17:49:08
#202,
They didn't vote on it because they didn't support it, d'uh....
193

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 17:50:26
204. Weird, you would think if Labour opposed these policies they would actually have voted against them? PLease explain why, if Labour opposes these policies, they did not vote against their implementation?
194

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 17:50:56
#201
It doesn't talk, it swears...but maybe that's just me, the Amish know more about computers than me...
195

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 13/03/2008 17:51:05
Ayrshire,
Why are you encouraging the fool?
196

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 17:52:40
#205,
Hmmm...I'm sure you're trying to make a point but I'm struggling to see it. What do you want to hear?
197

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 17:52:41
#205,
Hmmm...I'm sure you're trying to make a point but I'm struggling to see it. What do you want to hear?
198

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 17:53:39
207. Fools especially need encouragement, Alex. Poor Grahamski, and his contradictory, foot-shooting apologia for New Labour. I feel someone should help him express his many and varied stupidities? Look upon it as cyber-care for the "vulnerable".

199

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 17:54:40
208. Hmmmm, New Labour say all these SNP polices are bad, and the SNP budget is awful...and yet they didn't manage to cast a vote against these? Why?
200

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 17:55:50
211,
This matters why?
201

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 18:01:28
212. Just wondering why Labour say these policies and the SNP budget are so awful, and yet failed to cast any votes against them?

Makes you think Labour are more interesting in spin and pontification than anything actually impacting on real people.
202

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 18:02:10
212. You may be right, and Labour are just pointless.
203

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 18:05:09
214,
Er, no it doesn't. But please carry on with your woeful attempts at spin though...I'm off to get some food and then out to watch Scotland's representative play in Europe. I'm sure Glasgow Rangers can count on all nationalist posters' support, eh?
204

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 18:07:13
217
I'm right they're wrong, good enough for you?
205

Andrew Allan,

13/03/2008 18:08:14

#155.,The Master.13/03/2008 15:56:22
‘… just like the poll tax, LIT hits wage earners who contribute nothing just now (perhaps because they live with their parents). It also hits two income families living in modest accommodation. I really can’t get over the political naivety of you Nats: when you create losers, you’re just asking for political trouble. Witness the collapse of the Tory vote in Scotland after the introduction of the community charge and weep! Incidentally, I notice that it’s already been labelled “the job tax”, just as the community charge was labelled “the poll tax”! Are you Nats ready to rumble???’

TM, talk about the pot calling the kettle black, naivety show me your Master and gaze upon your reflexion. Considering ordinary income tax is already levied in the manner the proposed local income tax will be, are you trying to say this method of paying tax is unfair, and those who believe in our ordinary income tax are also naïve? Now for the good bit, in your estimation, seeing you are such an expert, what percentage of the population of Scotland will be worse off paying local income tax? As for the Tories, don’t get me started, if it wasn’t for my belief that we are not shown the equality we should in Scotland by the Westminster parties, I would still be a Labour man, but I have always believed it is family first, then country, and then party, and it is that commitment which tells me the party I wish to be standing up for our rights in Scotland is doing no such thing. The Tory poll tax had greed written all over it, unlike this local income tax, and yet it didn’t stand on its own for the anger felt towards the Tories, which most still do.

206

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 18:08:21
219. ....Grahamski typed, with a quivering lip, before taking another wee huff. LOL. Cheerio
207

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 18:08:33
218
Yes, my heart sank when I was replying to some tripe poster a few days ago and I just thought that life was too short to put up with the nasty snidey stuff that passes for political debate on the Herald
208

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 18:09:40
218. Meths, he was last seen flouncing off the Herald in a wee huff. Think he is modelling himself on the great shaking fist, bottler Brown Bean himself
209

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 18:11:21
224,
Give it a rest, bullying is never an attractive trait...
210

Andrew Allan,

13/03/2008 18:12:04
#214., Ayrshire Scot™.
You think the Labour party are not saying anything because they are in a bad place, just look at the Tories shouting the odds yet without a workable solution in sight.
211

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 18:13:16
225
That's fine by me, anyway I need to dash, isn't the Scotsman such a refreshingly civil place?
212

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 18:14:08
226. No. Neither is defending death in Iraq and lying about the UK government's support for rendition flights. Before feeling too sorry for yourself, spare a thought for the 800,000 people your new Labour party helped to kill, and the people tortured in "rendition". Then spare a thought for the vulnerable, while you support spending £40 billion on nuclear WMDs. What a pathetic, self obessessed Labour apologist you are.
213

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 18:18:56
231,
I thank you for your kind words. This post illustrates why I haven't been anywhere near the Herald lately. From discussing local income tax to the kind of studenty sub-Trotskyist rant that Wolfie McSmith would be proud of.
Anyway Ayrshire, you've made my point for me, you loud-mouthed vile bully...
214

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 18:23:56
232. Trot on, you vile, spinning apologist for illegal wars, rendition flights, spending on nuclear weapons while bleating about the "vulnerable", cuts for millionaire's inheritance tax while claiming a LIT will impact the needy....
215

Miss H,

13/03/2008 18:24:00
232 It's a fair point.

Every party screws up at some point. The SNP hasn't yet but they will at some point.

But what you need to ask yourself is whether the SNP would ever be so screwed up that they would make a mistake like the Iraq war or agree to allow torture flights to use our airports. The answer is no.

People and parties screw up but errors like that are not simply a mistake - they're a sign of something rotten at the core.
216

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 18:25:17
234. Aye, Meths, Grahamski gives it but doesn't like to take it. He missed his niche on the Bishop bashing thread...
217

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 18:27:19
233
It's not because you're a nationalist people would disagree with you but because most people would argue that the best way to collect taxes is to spread taxation over wealth, property and income. Every Western country follows that principle (except Sweden, I think) because it seems to be true. The SNP's proposal of a non-local income tax with no taxation on property is a non-starter because apart from anything else, their sums don't add up.
218

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 18:28:45
238. Do you support Labour's tax cut for near millionaire inheritance tax?
219

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 18:29:54
239
Absolutely not, it is disgraceful.
220

Andrew Allan,

13/03/2008 18:32:02
#234.,Methalions.
The SNP are no more racist than any other of the main parties in Scotland, and yet I still consider this to be a bad thing, and this is by an SNP supporter.
221

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 18:32:07
234,
I don't mind robust debate, but what's the point if your opponent just lies? At the end of the day, who cares? I just believe that anybody can 'win' an argument by lying and bullying - in the real world you wouldn't see these people in your way...
222

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 18:33:07
240. good, so we agree, Labour tax policy is disgraceful and benefits the hyper rich at the expense of services to the vulnerable.

Makes you wonder what Wendy Alexander is on about?
223

The Master,

13/03/2008 18:34:02
#220 Andrew Allan: I do agree that income tax is a perfectly fair system of raising revenue, but try getting people to pay more of it! Remember “a penny for Scotland”? Also, income tax does not vary from area to area, as LIT will surely have to if local accountability is to be maintained. Trying to make this work administratively is going to be extremely taxing, to say the least (pun intended!). In practice, the higher up the income scale you are, the more you tend to pay in CT: I just think that the Nats (for some reason known only to themselves) have decided that there’s inequality here when this is simply not the case. The Tories had the same rationale when they replaced rates with the poll tax and look at the mess they got themselves into: local government finance is the quicksand of Scottish politics and everyone knows it.

PS How can you possibly say that Labour do not have Scotland’s interests at heart at a time when many down south feel that they are being ruled over by a Scottish Raj? I detect that you are having second thoughts about switching to the Nats: think about it then think again!
224

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 18:35:13
242. Indeed. I detest the way new Labour conned the UK into an illegal war by lying about WMD in Iraq.

I detest the way Labour tried to bully people into supporting their regressive detention without trial policies.
225

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 18:36:49
243
I didn't say that.
226

Andrew Allan,

13/03/2008 18:37:07
#242.,Grahamski.
'I don't mind robust debate, but what's the point if your opponent just lies? At the end of the day, who cares? I just believe that anybody can 'win' an argument by lying and bullying - in the real world you wouldn't see these people in your way...'

I'm sorry Grahamski I disagree, it's all down to the skill of those who argue their case, and the proof they supply to back it up, and that is the trick, if they can not supply the proof they do not have a strong leg to stand on.
227

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 18:38:09
245
Trot on Ayrshire with your lies and misrepresentations..have fun by yourself...
228

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 18:38:43
246. Eh? You said Labour tax policy was "disgraceful".
229

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 18:41:43
249. Are you saying Labour, with its dodgy dossiers and 45 minute sexed up WMD claims, did not lie about Iraq?

230

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 18:41:56
248
Andrew, when the baying mob at the Herald start there's no question of proof, hysterical attacks and unsubstantiated allegations are all they need to bully and harrass.
247
Meths,
I really don't mind knock-about political banter but the Herald's mindless mob go well beyond decency. I have accused the nats of anti-English racism. Mainly because they are guilty of it.
231

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 18:43:07
251
Off topic and boring. Go tell it to George Galloway, Saddam's pal.
232

Andrew Allan,

13/03/2008 18:43:22
#244.,The Master.
Don't worry yourself TM, I will stick with the SNP while it benefits my family and my country, in that order, and them my party line. As for the paying of more taxes, who says, you din't give me a percentage of who will be worse off. At the end of the day it come to what is left in the wallet or purse, and how good the people feel.
233

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 18:45:13
253. Saddam's pal? Galloway, who campaigned for the Kurds while the UK was propping him up? Nice piece of new Labour lying. Tell it to Brown, Bush's pal.
234

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 18:49:30
Ayrshire,
I salute your indefatigability...no wonder George was so anti-war, he got money from Saddam, co-operated with Saddam-collaborating Trots and Islamo-fascists to form his laughable AntiWar Coalition and carried out a nauseatingly anti-semitic election campaign against Oonagh King. Makes you feel proud, eh?
235

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 18:51:10
257
good? socialist? you're having a laugh, surely...
anyway play up the Rangers, Scotland's last team in Europe.
talk later
236

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 18:52:14
258. Ah, unproved allegations from the man who detests lying?

Perhaps, if i was petty, I would post your comments to Mr galloway - I hear he is litigious?

Do tell, Mr Grahamski, who says he abhors lying and unfounded allegations, when the USA Senate investigation and the UK government could not prove Galloway got any money from Saddam, why you feel it appropriate to state that he did? Just more New Labour smears, sleaze and lies? Or do you have proof?

237

HEN BROON 5,

13/03/2008 19:02:53
259 Grahamski,Falkirk 13/03/2008 18:51:10

All day long on and on and on. I thought you were going you utter fanatic. Time to drag your knuckles over to the telly for the Gers game. Be sure and wear your Butchers Apron and your little orange sash you clown.
238

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 19:04:57
260
The US congress cross-examined him about what happened to money raised for starving Iraqi children. The press declared that he had wiped the floor with them. His accusers didn't realise that they had let him off the hook. They thought that the worst charge they could level at him was corruption. For Galloway to flatter a tyrannous and genocidal regime for money is contemptable. How would you describe somebody who did it for free?
239

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 19:12:15
264. Well indeed. Brown had tea with Thatcher, and both liked Pinochet. Blair and Brown both like Bush, alot, an awful lot. Did Blair not reach quite a liking for Col Gaddafi? Tell us again, the proof for your accusation (you have said repeatedly that you hate lying and are such a stickler for accurate debate, after all) that Galloway received money from Iraq, when has denied this? And tell us why the children in Iraq were starving - was it because of USA/ UK policy that a US senator described as "infanticide disguised as politics"?

240

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 19:13:20
264. Did Donald Rumsfield not meet Saddam 3 times, to sell him weapons? And did the Uk government not sell Saddam weapons? How would you describe somebody who did it for free?
241

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 19:16:01
264. And do tell us all, how you describe a regime which cooperates with kidnpa and torture? Do tell, how you describe a New Labour government which aided and carried out rednition/ torture for the USA? Tell us how you describe a new Labour government which embroiled the UK ih the scum of Abu Grhaib torture and refuses to condemn the torture at Gauntanmo?

242

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 19:19:10
265
Gordon Brown like Pinochet?
The proof I have is from the US Congress, who maintain that Mr Galloway received funds from Saddam's murderous regime. That would be the same Saddam to whom Galloway declared the following:
'I thought the president would appreciate to know that even today , 3 years after the war, I still meet families who are calling their newborn sons Saddam..sir, I salute your courage, your strength and your indefatigability.'
His word against the US Congress, hmm that's a toughie....you've got to laugh, anyway the game awaits
243

HEN BROON 5,

13/03/2008 19:19:23
Grahamski aka Braveheart. Captain of the pyjama club.
The pyjama club is now a recognised breed in the blogosphere. It is a sad wee group of people who spend so much time on line that they live in their pyjamas and flit between the bed and the keyboard. With Wi Fi many of them just stay in bed.

The amount of time the Grahamski troll has been at it today probably means he sits on a commode, he certainly talks a lot of shyte.

There sole reason for existing is to go on to forums such as this and throw around abuse and create argument. They invent lives for them selves. Like," I am an economic migrant from Northern Ireland, I am agnostic but married a Catholic,I have a business that runs by itself and allows me to be on line all day," etc. etc. Or "I am a geologist working off shore in the Atlantic exploring for oil, sorry guys there is none," or "I live six months of the year in Cape Town, and come home every year, I will be back to vote on May 3rd," or "I am a history professor from Stirling, FACT, You's are all wrong, FACT, the UK is wonderful,FACT, I know every thing, FACT."

The only fact is they are all sad lonely anti social jaundiced bitter wee people, who get relief from there condition by their cyber life, it is quite quite sad.

Must be of my private jet is waiting to take me to Monte for a game of poker.
244

HEN BROON 5,

13/03/2008 19:20:35
You got him AS™,he cannot leave.
245

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 19:21:56
268. Indeed, did Thatcher not laud Pinochet as the "man who brought democracy to Chile"

Was not Thatcher "emabarrased but pleased by the praise heaped upon her by Grodon Brown" after the Brown/ Thatcher tea party?

Perhaps you will tell us where the WMD that new Labour told us about are, in Iraq, exactly? Or did they lie?

246

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 19:22:44
266
US and UK arms sales to Saddam's Iraq made up less than 1% - that is less than one per cent of iraq's arms. Brazil sold more arms to iraq than the UK and the US put together.
247

Grahamski,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 19:24:11
271
Free by 93 - did the SNP lie or were they mistaken? See the difference? Anway, talk later got to go...
248

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 19:24:20
270 Even though we may wish he would ( he said an hour ago he was) it is instructive to see new Labour apologists defending lies that killed 800,000 in Iraq, and tax cuts for millionnaires, while tryting to criticise the SNP for a fair local tax on the grounds of the "vulnerable". New Labour are a pathetic, spent, Tory, regressive and anti-Scottish force.

249

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 19:25:33
272. good to see that although Iraq was gassing the Kurds, the UK only sold him a few weapons. That makes all the difference, you pathetic new Labour apologist for dictatorships and illegal wars.
250

Tris,

13/03/2008 19:25:55


Ha HA HA Grahamski.... are you saying you believe the US congress?...... hahaha, next thing you'll tell me is there are still weapons of mass destruction to be found, and that DubYa knows him bum from his elbow!
251

Nikostratos,

13/03/2008 19:38:15
I see the Cypernatbullys are ganging up and pummeling another poor sap..............

I went for a walk around the Herald the other night and before i knew it they surrounded me and started with their vile insults as usual..........Just because i took a pop at their luvvly Iain Macwhirter

That Herald is becoming a no go area for pro-union supporters.

#269 hen broom

For once you are right as i am in me Loungewear

http://www.next.co.uk/shopping/men/underwear/2/11
252

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 19:39:00
277. niko dude, rather harsh calling Grahamski a sap...
253

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 19:44:31
269. Funny you should say that Hen, I was posting from my private jet, en route to my house in the Bahamas, FACT. I love the way unionists who talk down Scotland end the most ludicrous of assertions with " FACT". They must be right...
254

Robbie 2,

New Zealand 13/03/2008 19:59:07
231 Ayrshire Scot™
Rendition Flights landing in Scotland. There will be an interview with Amnesty International (Scotland) on Radio New Zealand in about 15 minutes now ie - just after the news at 8:00pm (GMT).
It appears a Kiwi firm Infratil is an owner of Prestwick airport and is a worry to New Zealanders if this airport is being used for this purpose.
Link is http://www.radionz.co.nz/__data/assets/audio_item/0019/8065/national.asx
255

Robbie 2,

13/03/2008 20:03:39
279
Ayrshire Scot™,
It's on now.
256

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 20:16:58
282. Robbie, thanks. just saw your post, will see if can get on Radio NZ on Internet. I was referring to the UK government's admitted extent of collaboration with rendition-torture so far in allowing use of UK airbases, and the statements of the SAS officer (against whom the UK gov took out an injunction) who said UK military helped in kidnap/ rendition/ torture.
257

Robbie 2,

13/03/2008 20:22:56
283
Ayrshire Scot
Just copy this link into your browser
http://www.radionz.co.nz/__data/assets/audio_item/0019/8065/national.asx
258

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 20:24:37
277

Oh behave yersell if you would post an honest opinion once in a while or even a fact then no matter how much pummelling was involved you would always have an answer. You get pummeled because you post like a troll only out for a stir so ye deserve all ye get. If you think LIT is a bad thing then convince us with some hard facts if yer right then nobody can take it away from you and if yer not you will be told so.
259

Paloma negra,

13/03/2008 20:45:32
El senor Swinney has messed up to many times I think.
His political career will probably soon come to an abrupt end.
260

Paloma negra,

13/03/2008 20:52:43
#
... Nationalism by its very nature attracts a loony sect of undercover and sometimes overt racists.
Such is the nature of nationalism all over this planet.

I am often shocked and dismayed find this surprising.
I Spain there is a rabid Catalan movement who systematically refuse to communicate in their own cul-de-sac narrow interest language.

We should see ourselves as internationalist or Earthlings
... before we define our affinity to a particular part of our planet.

Scrape most nationalists
...and you will find a racist lurking just under the surface of their polite veneer.
261

Paloma negra,

13/03/2008 20:54:06
#252
Grahamski !!!
my previous comment was directed at you.
262

Lady Muck,

13/03/2008 21:01:16
I tend to agree with the posters who say that Nationalists are small minded and parochial it is not that they are racist it is just that they are not very cosmopolitan.
263

Tris,

13/03/2008 21:27:48


Oh dear... that's me told.... not very cosmopolitan.

Gutted.
264

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 13/03/2008 21:42:32
#289 M'lady Muck care to give this cosmopolitan cnut of a nationalist some ideas of your own cosmopolitan endeavours.
265

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 21:49:06
291. I think she means we don't advocate package deals to Iraq, and don't get money from Jersey.

Or she just mistakes the name of the happy hour special in the Uddingston new Labour war monger clubs for being "international"

Or she just gusset-types while reading a certain magazine, beloved of the Blair/ Mandelson celebrity worshipping Iraq war/ Trident/rendition-torture new Labour party?

266

,

13/03/2008 21:50:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
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267

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 21:51:45
288. Only three exclamation marks. You would think new Labour, Trident buying, Iraq invading, rendition-torture collaborating sorts could muster more punctuation for their own sterile posts to one another?

268

,

13/03/2008 21:53:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
269

,

13/03/2008 21:53:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
270

,

13/03/2008 21:54:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
271

HEN BROON 5,

13/03/2008 21:55:01
279 Ayrshire Scot™,13/03/2008 19:44:31

Sorry AS just got in, had a rough flight, but the Crystal took the sting out of it.

Ally and Walter are due in any minute, they have just touched down, so I can't stay long. Promise to be a good night with some high rollers in town, FACT.

I think I will just pop into my Jim jams just in case.

277 Nikostratos,13/03/2008 19:38:15 What have you got against saps, have you been sexually assaulted by one or something. Love the lounge gear must see if my PA can pick some up hear tomorrow. I'm sure Gucci must have some.


Well done Gers.


ALBA GU BRATH.
272

Lady Muck,

13/03/2008 21:55:27
Is it only members of the SNP who opposed Iraq ? I seem to remember it was a global phenomena but you seem to hold it as some kind of trump card of your own. There are many people who oppose nuclear weapons and nuclear power they are not all Scottish. The fact that you associate cosmopolitan with a rather has been magazine which had its hey day in the 70's kind of makes my point.
273

HEN BROON 5,

13/03/2008 21:56:11
FECKIN SPELL CHECKER
274

,

13/03/2008 21:57:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
275

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 21:57:08
296.

One, two, uh-huh, three to the four
we have Trident knwocking at our door.
Three, four,uh-huh five, six,
we ignored the reports from Hans Blix

We found the WMD in Iraq very smelly
that's why we killed Dr David Kelly
If you are gagging, puking on the floor
All for the good, we are new Labour...




276

Lady Muck,

13/03/2008 21:57:25
And the faux rap is embarrassing is that your idea of cosmopolitan ? Aping black music ? Or what you perceive to be black music.
277

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13/03/2008 21:59:58
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HEN BROON 5,

13/03/2008 22:01:10
MUK MUK RIMES WITH FUK
SO DOES DUK
COME TO THINK OF IT
IT IT RIMES WITH SIT
SIT SIT RIMES WITH SLIT
AND SO WERE BACK TO FUK
279

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 22:01:48
300. Iraq was a "global phenomena". Phenomena was a bad film with with Mel Gibson or John Travolta. The decision of a UK Labour government to participate in an illegal war which has killed 800,000 civilians, and left 3 million refugees, and destabilised the world further, and had nothing to do with 9/11 or other "phenomena" is just a nauseatig symptom of "new" Labour's utter repellent and disgusting denial of everything that party once stood for.


280

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13/03/2008 22:02:21
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 13/03/2008 22:02:56
Noted that wee Wendy was given a premium comment on this. In the paper version she derides the cheap presentation of the consultation paper and witters on about all those middle class double earning families.

Like politicians and journalists perhaps?

Besides why produce an expensive shiny brochure, a la Labour, when the document is for consultation only? Why produce shiny brochures for any parliamentary business?

Early days yet with this LIT, I reckon, and I certainly would not write it off yet.
282

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 22:05:13
306. Another "new" moniker? and one whichapologises for new Labour sluaghter? wonder who it is?

283

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 22:07:36
308. I agree, LOL. was just my first attempt, but was only for lady crap.... uh huh
284

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13/03/2008 22:10:05
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 13/03/2008 22:10:40
Incidentally, I pay tax on my interest bearing bank account as it is classified as earnings. Ditto when I had a Building Society account. Ditto with my shares dividends.

Can anyone tell me why the Scottish Government is not able to add LIT to them? Something must be preventing that. Something we are not being told about?
286

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13/03/2008 22:11:04
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13/03/2008 22:12:38
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Lady Muck,

13/03/2008 22:15:04
protesting against Iraq was a global pohenomena or do you only watch the Scottish news ? Why would you assume that anyone who does not find the SNP appealing because of their narrow outlook would support new Labour they are even worse.
289

Lady Muck,

13/03/2008 22:16:01
Perhaps the same service you rendered when you became a Colonel, Colonel.
290

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 22:16:24
With the sonic boom boom of Labour bombs,
Day starts then it turns to night
New Labour u listen to about WMD sh-ite
Labour's in with donors,they get the bung
Labour's in the house, it smells like dung

291

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13/03/2008 22:16:37
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Lady Muck,

13/03/2008 22:17:23
Phenomena was John Travolta I have seen worse films Braveheart springs to mind.
293

Lady Muck,

13/03/2008 22:18:03
Or Derby O'gill and the Little People. Is that Sean connery and the nats ?
294

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 22:18:23
318. Ah, you miss the point, Protesting against the illegal new Labour carnage and rendition/torture is indeed Global. New Labour is Brit-Nat local.

Like you.

295

Lady Muck,

13/03/2008 22:18:39
A Liberal is for Christmas - not for Life.
296

Lady Muck,

13/03/2008 22:19:31
I don't recognise Brit or Nat my party is international
297

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13/03/2008 22:19:57
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Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 22:21:00
The SNP dream seems to be unravelling at last ehh??
299

Lady Muck,

13/03/2008 22:21:15
You seem to know a lot about female toiletries bird man
300

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 13/03/2008 22:21:55
Ayreshire, ColB

Start assembling your photo/video collections. Political and satirical of course.
301

Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 22:23:32
#327
Lady Muck ...

Well said girl !!!!!
Nationalism is doomed to failure.
302

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13/03/2008 22:25:16
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Lady Muck,

13/03/2008 22:26:05
Satire ? Posting silly clips from You Tube. Satire is Punch and the Private eye. Not silly boy's stuff.

Amparo Nationalism is a dead concept.
304

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13/03/2008 22:26:43
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OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 13/03/2008 22:27:20
I fear M'lady Mucka was raped by Mr. Mistoffelees.
306

Lady Muck,

13/03/2008 22:27:41
Bird man do you do requests ? Could you do us a dirge on the death of nationalism.
307

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 13/03/2008 22:29:08
I'm so Ronery / So ronery / So ronery and sadry arone / There's no one / Just me onry / Sitting on my rittle throne / I work very hard to be number one guy / but, stiwr there's no one to right up my rife / Seems rike no one takes me serirousry / And so, I'm ronery / A rittle ronery / Poor rittle me / There's no one I can rerate to / Feewr rike a biwd in a cage / It's kinda siwry / but, not reawry / because, it's fiwring my body with rage / I'm the smartest, most crever, most physicawry fit / but, none of the women seem to give a shitt / Maybe someday, they'wr awr notice me / And untiwr then, I'wr be ronery / Yeah, a rittle ronery / Poor rittle me...
308

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 22:30:03
331. Eh? Jeez, not a rendition of that episode where I stripped in Bruxelles in a kilt? Was for charity.. speaking of chairty, how is our "monker" Grahamksi/ t-at doing under lady muck?

309

The Maltese Falcon™,

Island of Muck 13/03/2008 22:31:03
#337 No but would you like to see this bird of prey in drag?
310

HEN BROON 5,

13/03/2008 22:31:21
AN ODE TO LADY MUCK.



I once met this fellow
Though ever so ‘yella’
Was rich in life’s great plan



His abode was a bench
Newspaper the fence
He lived on beans an’ spam



Indignant not, but buoyant so
For time forgot his pain, his woe
A wife, three kids he had no more
And riches ceased - for he was poor



The ‘ouse was sold' for this he told
He couldn’t even knock the door
His friends all felt - because he smelt
He wasn’t useful anymore



And as for luck - no job as such
No help of sorts from 'Lady Muck'
His kids looked down upon his sty
With life they often passed him by



His face was worn, his clothes were old
Upon this bench his tale he told
A seemly smile and eyes so bright
He talked and talked into the night



A child approached with hands laid flat
A penny thrown into his hat
A little sigh, the penny flung
He couldn’t take this from the young



Not proud though well ,was still his sight
He knew the truth of wrong and right
And as for loss and broken dreams
‘Tis all a part of life it seems



What good would coin and favour do
He would be well to see this through
For all the past had ever taught
Was greed upon the dollar sought



Now he was wise and to that end
He’d truly learnt to breathe again



I turned and smiled then walked away
I haven’t seen him ..to this day

311

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 13/03/2008 22:33:58
and there's a rose in the fisted glove
and the eagle fies with the dove
and if you can't be with the one you love
love wee wendy's whiff.

eh no, 333, Bird of Prey?
312

Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 22:38:11
Hopefully wee Eck will be oot on his ear soon.
Or better still this halfway house garbage
... as in Uncle Tom's Cabin / Hollyrood
... will be seen for the disaster it is.
Devolved government does not work.

It needs to be either outright independence or the status quo (i.e. the United Kingdom)

Uncle Tom's Cabin only makes us Scottish look foolish.
313

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13/03/2008 22:39:37
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13/03/2008 22:44:51
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Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 22:46:21
Hen Broon ...
Come oan man get real here pal.
316

HEN BROON 5,

13/03/2008 22:46:34
Then he showed her the rod
Marks the difference, by God,
Between what a man and a toff is.

Now our Joe was the first proletarian
Who had filled with his spunc the ovarian
Recess of de Vaughan,
Which had sheltered the spawn
Of unnumbered Fascists, all Aryan.

Next day his friends said, `You've been soaring,
You're dead on your feet. Were you whoring?'
He replied, `Starving masses
Mean more than plump asses.
Last night from within I was boring.'

And de Vaughan thought her troubles were over,
Her picket had left (to recover),
But he'd furnished her womb
With incipient bloom:
A fact she had yet to discover.

So after nine months, to the day,
The employer in labor pains lay.
As the boy hove in sight
He yelled, `WORKERS UNITE!'
And the doctors all fainted away.

The moral of this is, my child,
By rich promises don't be beguiled.
Remember that workers
Are eminent firkers,
And go left, if you must be defiled.

317

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13/03/2008 22:48:35
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 13/03/2008 22:48:40
345, Bird of Prey. I'm a 12-string singer/songwriter. But I can't sing or write songs or play the 12-string.

I do remember that Steven Stills songs though.

Ok I lied.
319

DER FUHRER,

13/03/2008 22:50:47
Salmond fell flat on his face on Question Time.

He didn't have all his toadies there to laugh at everything and anything he says.
320

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13/03/2008 22:51:00
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Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 22:51:19
#346
Hen Broon ...
... yer heid's in a guddle pal


Colonel Blimp ...

you said ...
No saviour from on high delivers
No faith have we in prince or peer
Our own right hand the chains must shiver
Chains of hatred, greed and fear
E'er the thieves will out with their booty
And give to all a happier lot.
Each at the forge must do their duty
And we'll strike while the iron is hot.



... yea
no bad matey.
322

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13/03/2008 22:52:07
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Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 22:53:44
Der Fuhrer ...

Why are ye surprised when humpty McNumpty
... as in wee Eck
... looks sty-oooo-pit??
324

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13/03/2008 22:53:52
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HEN BROON 5,

13/03/2008 22:54:32
MY SPELL CHECKER

I have a spell checker
It came with my pea sea
It plane lee marks four my revue
Miss steaks aye can knot see





Eye ran this poem threw it
Your sure real glad two no
Its very polished in its own weigh
My chequer tolled me sew





A cheek or is a blessing
It freeze yew lodes of thyme
It helps me right awl stiles two reed
And aides me when aye rime





Now spilling does not phase me
It does knot bring a tier
My pay purrs awl due glad den
With wrapped words fare as hear





To rite with care is quite a feet
Of witch won should be proud
And wee mussed dew the best wee can
Sew flaws are knot aloud





So ewe can sea why aye dew prays
Such soft wear four pea seas
And why eye brake in two averse
Buy righting want to please







OK I'LL GET ME COAT.






ALBA GU BRATH.
326

Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 22:55:34
Yea ...
... wee Eck
... like Uncle Tom's Cabin
... is garbagio.
327

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 13/03/2008 22:57:13
351, DER FÜHRER, sALMOND NEVER FELL FLAT ON HIS FACE AT ALL. tHE AUDIENCE DID NOT APPLAUD BECAUSE IT IS A LONDON AUDIENCE AND THEY WON'T GET WHAT SALMOND SAID FOR ANOTHER 4 YEARS.
328

Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 22:57:39
#357
Hen Broon ye huv lost the script
... just like the SNP.
329

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13/03/2008 22:59:50
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Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 23:00:18
Jock Tamson ...
... yer moniker is a reference to Scotland on the international stage.

Shame your are another nationalist stooge wearing blinkers.
331

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13/03/2008 23:02:18
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Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 23:03:06
Hen Broon
+
Jock Tamson ...

... wee Eck
... like Uncle Tom's Cabin
... is Scotland's biggest running joke.

P45 wee Eck
... and shut down Uncle Tom's Cabin.
333

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13/03/2008 23:04:12
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13/03/2008 23:05:07
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13/03/2008 23:05:27
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13/03/2008 23:05:37
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Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 23:05:50
#363
Bird of Prey ...

Come on ...

... wee Eck is a fool surrounded by his yes-men and yes-girls at Uncle Tom's Cabin.

He is a disgrace.

Uncle Tom's Cabin is just one big joke.
338

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13/03/2008 23:06:02
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13/03/2008 23:06:47
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13/03/2008 23:09:19
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Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 23:10:18
Wee Eck
... like Uncle Tom's Cabin
... is an exercise in parochial numpty-ism


... like many last year
... I was hood-winked into thinking wee Eck would be a cahnge.
Pish
Shut down this embarressing devolved New LayBore numpty-ist experiment.
Uncle Tom's Cabin just makes Scotland the laughing stock of the world.
342

Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 23:14:24
#372
Bird ...

Alba the laughing stock mair like.

Shut doon this garbagio.
Outright independence or stick with the uk ...!!!!
343

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 13/03/2008 23:17:29
ColB, 371.

All those waves and no surf.

Amparo,362.

My name is Jack Thomson and have been called Jock Tamson sinse school. Also I live in Scotland, Caledonia, Alba. Don't know where you get the international from. Think you are just up to troll mischief judging by your posts.
344

Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 23:17:46
Speak to people overseas ...!!
Aske them if Uncle Tom's Cabin has improved the Scots

Answer ...
... no!!!

Shut down this parochial numpty factory.
Uncle Tom's Cabin is just nonsense.
345

DER FUHRER,

13/03/2008 23:17:56
Oh F*** Iran are trying to strike up a relationship with Scotland.

Salmond better tell them wher eto get off.
346

Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 23:21:29
#376
Jock Tamson
... yours lack of understanding is shocking.

The phrase:
... "we are all Jock Tamson's bairns"

... stems from the Scots who traveled
... and made an important contribution to this planet matey.

Google it and find out
347

Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 23:24:11
#378
Der Fuhrer ...
Iran is just another basket-case Islamic regime.
348

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 13/03/2008 23:26:08
379, Amparo.

I am well aware of the term Jock Tamson's bairns but I do not live on the planet matey. This is earth. You require beaming back up.
349

Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 23:26:10
#380
Clarry ...
Wee Eck has his heid up his airse.
Trump will no doot get his way.
350

DER FUHRER,

13/03/2008 23:26:50
381 Exactly Amparo Exactly.

Its tomorrows front page on the Scotsman.
351

Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 23:27:55
#382
Jock T.
... you huvnae goat a Scooby pal
352

Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 23:30:45
Jock T.
... your "Star Trek" references
... are way oot matey.

I am Scottish of Spanish extraction.
I believe that I also come from this planet matey.
353

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 13/03/2008 23:32:15
385, Amparo.

I know how to turn the tables and wind you up.
354

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 13/03/2008 23:33:44
Amparo.

I come from this planet earth
355

Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 23:36:41
#384
Der F.
... wee Eck could not wait to get an Islamist elected oan a SNP ticket.
His pland will come unstuck
... just like Broon
... how much money is Jessie Broon
... wasting of the taxpayers money
... on Islamic Studies (i.e. jihad courses) ??
356

Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 23:38:17
#388
Jockie wockie baby ...

WHIT??
357

democrate,

central Scotland 13/03/2008 23:39:20
I was so disgusted by Brewer's conduct during this interview that I made a formal complaint to the BBC. I am holding my breath for a sensible response. The media bias is so sadly obvious and does Scotland and her people nothing but harm.
358

DER FUHRER,

13/03/2008 23:43:49
#393 democrate I bet Gordon Brewer is quaking in his boots.

Do you not have anything better to do with your time?
359

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 13/03/2008 23:44:14
OMG. Brillo pad is on This Week. That's Elvis Paisley to the uninitiated. AKA the former editor and publisher of the Scotsman, Neil somebody.

Should have got Stuart Cosgrove instead.

360

Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 23:44:17
#393
Domocrate Central Scotland ...

Brewer ...
like Wark and Paxman are paid to keep eejits like wee Eck and Swinney on the back foot.
Paxman did it to yon Tory eejit
... Brewer has done it to yon SNP pudddin'

Why complain???
... they are only doing their job.
361

DER FUHRER,

13/03/2008 23:45:03
clarry..................Amparo makes much better contributions than you have ever done.

Work that one out.
362

DER FUHRER,

13/03/2008 23:45:14
Hoos Poos
363

DER FUHRER,

13/03/2008 23:46:42
Amparo......exactly. He made mincemeat of Swinney and dont the Gnats know it.

So whats the response??

They go crying to the BBC like wee babies.
364

Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 23:47:34
Clarry ...
I could retaliate and also gie ye "dugs abuse."

But being a polite well-raised woman
... and a mother of two weans
... and a working mother too !!

... I won't bother.
I am off to bed soon.
365

Amparo de Glasgow,

13/03/2008 23:49:34
#401
cheers
... baw-baws time for me th'noo
... see ye all later.
366

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 13/03/2008 23:52:42
Amparo, do Spanish name endings have the same meaning as Italian name endings? Julio, Julia?

Just wondered as you claim to be a mother in 402. I have a Spanish friend so I can check out your answer. Amparo is masculine, nicht wahr?
367

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 14/03/2008 00:03:25
407. I'm glad you Clarryfied that.
368

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14/03/2008 00:03:48
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14/03/2008 00:05:25
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14/03/2008 00:07:25
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 14/03/2008 00:07:29
Waiting for the last beam to planet matey are we, Ampara, mother of twa?
372

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14/03/2008 00:11:56
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14/03/2008 00:13:12
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 14/03/2008 00:14:29
415, Clarry.

Ghee
375

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14/03/2008 00:14:47
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14/03/2008 00:16:47
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Robbie 2,

NZ 14/03/2008 00:17:34
Can't believe how low and puerile aspects of these forums and posters have sunk.
I understand why so many of last years political debates no longer contribute. Sad.
378

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14/03/2008 00:18:20
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 14/03/2008 00:18:26
Must go to bed. Earthing need to sleep. What time you taking your dogs for a crap over Trump's future in the morning, Clarry?

When is the last beam to planet matey, Ampara the mother of twa (somethings)?
380

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14/03/2008 00:19:54
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 14/03/2008 00:28:20
Before I go, nighty night, I would just like to point out that Robbie2 has criticised the forum. Perhaps he could tell us all why he is now Robbie2?

Oh dear, is that why you got moderated as Robbie?

 

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