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Care and benefits at risk as Scotland warned 'finances in worrying state'

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Published Date: 18 November 2008
A LEADING think-tank has questioned whether the Scottish budget is in good enough shape to withstand the economic downturn.


In a damning briefing paper for Holyrood's finance committee, the Centre for Public Policy for Regions (CPPR) warned that the Scottish Government will have to make tough decisions in the next two budgets.

It warned that the budget had little f
lexibility and there was a danger of over-spending. And it concluded: "This is a worrying position to be in at this stage of an economic downturn."

The result was that universal current or planned benefits such as free elderly care, bus passes and prescription charges may have to be targeted, the paper said.

John Swinney, the finance secretary, is due to appear before Holyrood's finance committee today and will be challenged on the paper's findings.

The CPPR has claimed that expected incomes of more than £200 million a year may not be met. CPPR member Professor John McLaren suggested that the SNP's decision to abolish hospital car-parking charges had contributed to this problem.

The paper added that a reduction in "underspends" meant the Scottish Government had less money available.

It said that in the 2008 draft budget, the Scottish Government proposed spending more than was allocated to it by the Treasury.

This was to be done partly by drawing on reserves it had built up at the Treasury – £300 million this financial year, £400 million next year, and £174 million the following year – by which time more than 90 per cent of the reserves would have been used.

And speeding up the spending of £100 million on affordable housing had only been made possible by delaying spending elsewhere. There was doubt too over where councils would find the £40 million to put into the housebuilding programmes.

There was also "uncertainty" over local government's ability to meet its own commitments through "income uncertainty" in the case of Glasgow and a lack of contingency savings in the case of Aberdeen.

Prof McLaren said: "We were all surprised at what we saw and surprised that it had not been raised before. There is cause for deep concern here.

"I don't know what emergency measures would be needed if the Scottish Government overspends, but ministers are going to have to look very carefully at their budgets and spending commitments."

He added that it showed the good times for Scotland, with large budget increases, had passed, and that there may be more problems with tighter budgets after 2011.

Labour said the report showed that the £100 million housebuilding programme, which was touted as a reflationary measure to stimulate the economy, "is deeply flawed".

But ministers have insisted their budget strategy is working for Scotland and allowing them to invest more, and that the real problem is Scottish money being withheld by the UK Treasury.

A spokesman for Mr Swinney said: "The Scottish Government's budget strategy to release Scotland's unspent balance held by Treasury – the End Year Flexibility resources referred to – has enabled us to maintain public services and investment in Scotland, despite the worst funding settlement since devolution.

"And we have identified a further £1 billion of Scottish resources withheld by the Treasury – including Scotland's underspend in 2007/08 – which we are currently not able to access, and Scotland's Fossil Fuel Levy of £120 million.

"It seems as if the report's authors are arguing for cutting services in Scotland so that more of Scotland's money can be left with the Treasury this year and for the next two years," the spokesman added.

Future of Holyrood's flagship measures hang in balance

THE Scottish Government may be forced to follow the example set in Ireland of abandoning "universal" benefits, according to the paper by the Centre for Public Policy for Regions.

This could hit flagship measures including free care for the elderly as well as free bus passes. It would also affect more recent developments under the SNP administration, of moving towards free prescriptions and university education.

The CPPR has said policies by both the Labour/Lib Dem Scottish Executive and SNP Scottish Government have shown a drift towards universal provision of services, which may not now be affordable. "The Irish government has taken the view that it needs to reduce the burden on its budget to stimulate the economy and aim benefits at only the most needy," said CPPR research fellow John McLaren. "It may be now that the Scottish Government needs to consider a similar path. Many of these policies were introduced when times were good and there was a lot of money available, that is no longer the case."

Greater Scottish autonomy might mean 'poorer services'

A PANEL of experts looking at tax-raising powers for the Scottish Government has warned that the price of greater self-rule might be worse services.

In its report for the Calman Commission on the future of devolution, the panel, chaired by Professor Anton Muscatelli, also concluded that the Barnett Formula, which governs Scotland's financial allocation, has serious deficiencies.

It called for another investigation into what to do with oil revenues, pointing out that if Holyrood received a share of the revenues, it would have to pay a part of the decommissioning costs, expected to be £19 billion by 2040.

The report looked at different means of devolved finance in countries such as Spain, Germany, Canada and Australia.

However, Prof Muscatelli and his colleagues, having "laid out the landscape" the Calman Commission needs to look at, refused to make any recommendations. They concluded there was "no ideal solution". Prof Muscatelli said the advantage of the Barnett Formula was its stability and predictability. And he added that there "might be a trade-off" on services and revenue with greater autonomy.

"For example, there is a shared, common social security system throughout the UK," he said. "And a broad parity of public service provision north and south of the Border.

"If it was considered important to maintain some degree of equality, then there would need to be some connection maintained between the Scottish Parliament's budget and spending by the UK."

Iain Gray, the leader of the Scottish Labour Party, said the document undermined the case for independence. "Certain points are immediately evident that undermine the SNP economic argument for independence such as volatile oil and gas prices. Labour has always pointed out how irresponsible and high risk it would be to rely on one revenue source."

The SNP attacked the report. Alasdair Allan, an SNP MSP, said the report and the UK government's lack of support for change showed that the Calman Commission was redundant.







Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 17 November 2008 11:48 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Fifi la Bonbon,

18/11/2008 00:30:34
I haven't actually read the story yet, but I am already confident that any bad things that will happen will turn out to be the fault of the English.
2

Fifi la Bonbon,

18/11/2008 00:34:59
Ah yes, there it is... "But ministers have insisted their budget strategy is working for Scotland and allowing them to invest more, and that the real problem is Scottish money being withheld by the UK Treasury."
3

Millerman1,

18/11/2008 00:38:11
Yet more proof of the damage the Nats do, lets save millions for a start and get rid of the SP and everything that goes with it, it has been proven time and time again tht it is a waste of time and money.
4

lulach mac gille coemgain,

18/11/2008 00:41:21
What ? Finances in a worrying state ? Never - yer kiddin’ me !
5

Missbehave (Princess Fiona),

18/11/2008 00:44:38
Rufus has gone to bed, whilst you wait do not worry, English will bail you out.

now what would you have with scottish independence.
6

karin.m,

18/11/2008 00:58:28
FROM THE TIMES


Ministers admit that tax rises will follow Gordon Brown's tax cuts
Brown admits reduction will be temporary

Tax rises are set to follow next week’s tax cuts, ministers admitted yesterday as Gordon Brown raised the spectre of deflation in Britain for the first time.

David Cameron predicted a tax-raising “bombshell” after Lord Mandelson, the Business Secretary, spoke of the need for “structural adjustments later on” and Mr Brown himself accepted that the Pre-Budget Report (PBR) stimulus would be “temporary”.
7

karin.m,

18/11/2008 01:23:39
A LEADING think-tank has questioned whether the Scottish budget is in good enough shape to withstand the economic downturn

Did they miss the part where superman gordon brown supposedly saved the world and no one would be worse off.
8

karin.m,

18/11/2008 01:41:01
mandelson has admitted that tax rises will follow the tax cuts broon has mentioned.

spring election anyone? thats usually why you get a tax cut then they put them up after the election.

buying votes.
9

Missbehave (Princess Fiona),

18/11/2008 01:50:22
10
you really talk daft.

when you add up the world debt you will find the world is in debt, so who do they owe it to?

I talk to my prejudiced country folk who say brown is useless, they are thick Englishmen what's your excuse?
10

Dunnie,

Canada 18/11/2008 01:57:18

How are ye Karin?
11

subrosa,

18/11/2008 02:03:01
# 11

You missed a bit - the bit about the UK having the most credit card debt in the world. That's a few bob more.
12

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

18/11/2008 02:20:26
Again, what utter hogwash. Hootsman you cant be serious! Just like the fierdy traitors of Glenrothes this so called news item is pie in the sky!
13

Thomas1,

// 18/11/2008 03:34:09
Don't go abroad for some years to come(maybe never again)the little pound is virtually worthless,soon it will be one euro to the pound.
Just stay there and go to pub and dream of the good old days when the pound was worth nearly 1.6 euros.
14

Churchill W.,

18/11/2008 05:12:57
Salmond has already demonstrated his willingness to fund his Scottish utopia by cutting services to the needy and diabled, he will not lose an sleep by further cuts to those sectors.
Alec in Wonderland economics, from the worlds greatest, living economist!
15

westcider,

Isle of Lewis 18/11/2008 06:51:51
The fearties are out in force this morning, they should look forward to the future with confidence, just like the Prime Minister who anticipates a quick defeat and then his directorship at Loyds/TSB.
My freind in Holland points out that over there they do not have the vast fisheries, or the land resources of Scotland. They have a little gas but nothing like the millions of oil reserves that flow from Scotland every week. In spite of this however the Dutch have a much higher standard of living than we do here. The trains are all electric and the infrastructure is modern. Strangely no one over there thinks Gordon is the saviour of the world, and you don't hear much talk of a credit crunch.
16

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 18/11/2008 07:17:29
The prospect of independence disappears into the distance. Still, when Fat Eck packs it in (pretty soon according to party insiders), he'll be off to work for Donald Trump.
17

gus1940,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 07:37:17
How much has the veto by The Saviour of The World's Financial System when The UK had the opportunity to join the Euro cost us.
18

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 07:48:28
CPPR once again the spoutings of Prof Brian Ashcroft aka Mr Wendy Alexander.
Scotland currently subsists on a fixed three year handout from London. No independent country would even contemplate this as a way to handle its finances.
19

john z,

edinburgh 18/11/2008 07:53:08
Spin, spin, spin, spinnety spin. All part of the 'media plan' to make the public of Scotland start thinking that Alex Salmond has caused the recession, and that poor wee Scotland, uniquely amongst oil producing nations just cannot afford to survive without begging for some money from engerland.

Who needs enemies when you have people who work for The Scotsman who are so happy to talk our country and businesses down

Memo to Maddox: Gordon Brown controls the economy, not Alex Salmond (unfortunately).

What a pile of tosh this 'article' is. For a moment I thought I was reading the daily record or ohh ahh daily star.
20

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 07:57:36
There must have been a full moon recently judging by the contributions from this group of rabid dribbling unionistas.

“when you add up the world debt you will find the world is in debt, so who do they owe it to?”

“Salmond has already demonstrated his willingness to fund his Scottish utopia by cutting services to the needy and diabled,(sic), he will not lose an sleep by further cuts to those sectors”

“Still, when Fat Eck packs it in (pretty soon according to party insiders), he'll be off to work for Donald Trump.”

Economic illiteracy, abject misrepresentation and unsubstantiated innuendo, the stuff and substance of the standard cringers’ position.
21

TWC,

18/11/2008 07:58:37
I listened to the Prof Muscatelli feedback, where he said they were carrying out a non political review, but when he discussed "Full Fiscal Autonomy " he made a political statement about it not being conducive to the Union. Is this an admission that Scotland would be better off with that option?
I am clinging to my union beliefs by the tips of my fingers, my only hope appears to be that the Lobdems will support SNP.
22

brownlie,

18/11/2008 08:08:03
Thank goodness for the re-assurance in this head-line that it is only Scotland's finances are in a bad state. I was getting a bit concerned that the whole of the UK's finances were in a bad state. Thank goodness that we have a new chancellor as the previous one sent this country into the doldrums.

19 Rules etc

How much did Blair earn this year as a reward for sacrificing British lives and those of innocent Iraqis?
23

thinking,

Scotland 18/11/2008 08:52:19
Get rid of at least half our MSPs. That will greatly reduce costs. We didn't need this many before so shouldn't need this many now. Getting rid of them will cut pay and expenses.
24

Tynietiger,

18/11/2008 08:53:09
"Prof" McLaren cheerleader for Labour at 2007 Scottish Election campaign and Brian Ashcroft is Wendy's house husband.

Perhaps Scotsman might wish to point this out so that we know where these "impartial" commentators are coming from.
25

Tynietiger,

18/11/2008 08:55:49
Thinking we should get rid of Westminster and save on these MPs who have nothing to do sinbce devolution.

Also time Scotland Office was abandoned as it is now just a Nat Bashing department paid for by taxpayers at £8 million a year.

26

subrosa,

18/11/2008 09:01:43
# 19 'Vote SNP and keep that gravy train on the rails.'

Vote labour, tory or libdem and keep noses in the trough along with these MSPs ensuring Scotland is held back by their UK counterparts.
27

Boy Wonder,

18/11/2008 09:05:54
Maddox ... a party hack for Unionists!!!
28

Alberto.,

18/11/2008 09:23:47
Regard less of the poor financial state presented presunmably all the MSP's little 'jollies' abroad will have escaped connsideration, if any, for cancellation / postponement - or is that a question too far?
29

Marian,

18/11/2008 09:30:53
Another day and yet another scare story press release from New Labour finds its way uncut into the Scots media courtesy of New Labour's media class stooges.

Of far more interest to Scots should be the UK's finances which are in extremely dire shape thanks to the economic incompetence of Gordon Brown.

Who ignored the debt spiral as it built up? Who weakened regulation and allowed Northern Rock to offer 125 per cent mortgages? Who diminished Bank of England control over our banking system? Who wrecked final-salary pensions with a £5 billion-a-year tax levy? Who ignored the risks of the house price and equity boom?

Gordon Brown and his New Labour party are fo course the culprits.

The Prime Minister admits to none of this but asserts that our present woes are due entirely to “an international crisis begun in America”. He repeats this mantra so often that he may have come to believe it. But no one else should.

A large part of the crisis now engulfing us is home-grown in the Treasury and No10. The UK would be facing recession and a house price collapse without any international dimension. New Labour has as much financial blood on its hands as any erring banker on either side of the Atlantic.

Hundreds of thousands of elderly people did everything possible - without state benefits - to secure their future. Now, the crisis cut in interest rates is likely to reduce their income even further.

At the heart of the troubles is debt. Debt has been this Government's biggest growth industry. Annual borrowing - even at the beginning of the recession - is at record levels: no comparable country is in a worse position.

Personal debt, too, has risen to levels never before seen - up by 70 per cent in a single decade. It is now the highest of any leading economy: higher as a proportion of income than any G7 country has seen.

The New Labour Government wallowed in the feel-good factor of this easy money: it made it popular, won elections, so New Labour let it
30

Marian,

18/11/2008 09:31:27
continued........

The New Labour Government wallowed in the feel-good factor of this easy money: it made it popular, won elections, so New Labour let it rip. The IMF tried - repeatedly - to warn Tony Blair and Mr Brown of the dangers ahead, only to be told it was “mistaken” and “wrong” but it was not.

Gordon Brown glosses over these errors. The UK, he claims, is better placed than most to deal with the crisis. But, if the IMF is correct, that is yet another juicy piece of fiction: it believes the UK will suffer the deepest recession of any leading nation. The collapsing value of sterling suggests it is not alone in that view.

As with every Labour Government we have known, its legacy will be a wrecked economy that - yet again - will take years to mend.
31

Grahamski,

Falkirk 18/11/2008 09:36:12
32/33
Marian,
Try as you might, you can't quite conceal your glee in the tough times we're facing, can you?
Still, it must be tough as you grimly churn out your spiteful propaganda day after day
32

,

18/11/2008 09:37:08
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33

Alan B,

18/11/2008 09:37:45
Lets face it the whole uk is doomed. Brown has run the economy into the ground. The guy is a moron.
34

,

18/11/2008 09:52:47
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35

Darien,

Panama 18/11/2008 09:53:15
Prof Muscatelli, the McCalman's, and the Hootsmon journos should focus on the bigger picture - that is the deteriorating finances of the British State, for they are in quite a state now and getting worse all the time. The artificial financial situation of Scotland today is irrelevant compared to the state of Britain's finances (less than 3% - that is Scots public expenditure of £30bn compared with well over £1000bn for Westminster, and the latter rising as Gordo & Darling spends spends spends) . Well done superGordo and his Darling! The only thing that is going to take Scotland down is the long term debt of the British State. The sooner Scotland unties its chains to the Brit-Titanic the better. Muscatelli and his crew should consider the dog (i.e. Britain), not just the tail. So Professor, ask the bigger question - what is the effect of Britain's worsening debt, now the worst in the developed world, on Scotland?
36

noswod,

Honestas 18/11/2008 10:04:29
Its offical and the truth. Leaving the Union will cost Scotland money, big money. No mair giveaways or pay one pound in tax and get another 25p of spend free. The talk of independence will finally push the Southern Britains to turn of the tap of cash that gets Scotland the best level of public services in Britain. Why can't we keep stum with oor ain Prime Minister and Chancellor shovelling the cash North while London doesney notice with Boris figuring oot how to do the Olympics for 2/6. The Nats are no acting like Scotsmen, take the money Jocky and keep the mouth shut otherwise it will be turned aff.
37

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 18/11/2008 10:09:52
''He added that it showed that the good times for Scotland, with large budget increases had passed''

D'oh I think we've worked that out, mind you it won't stop Labour et al from carping at the SNP, expecting them to achieve impossible targets without the necessary resources to do it.
38

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 10:15:47
Grahmski, I didnt read any glee in Marians words. What I did sense was frustration from a person who is concerned about the welfare of her people who will suffer great hardships, because of Brown and "the same Old New Labour Failures"

Brown chose to follow the Thatcher and Regan philosophies of Free Market, and lack of regulations. You know the one were we could trust corporate business to do the right thing and create Utopia.

Well we are all paying the ferryman now. Well er sorrow, Im not, because I saw it coming two years ago and made decisions that kept me quite well prepared. I dont have a single debt, that affects my day to day life. My money is doing very nicely in Australian Banks and I have a small business that provides services that many Scots or even Brits need during a recession and also provides me with a modest cash flow.

I certainly wish every Unionist anglo, Scot or anything else a miserable life, and look forward to their punishment for blindly following the New Numpties to London. Lets hope the WU Merchant,Churchills,AM2,and the like have a very horrible Christmas and do us all a big favour by backing up their hatred for Scotland , by peeing of to their London before the New Year.

39

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 10:25:55
38 Darien
Your analysis and figures are completely erroneous. Firstly the £30bn you mentioned is not the total amount of public expenditure in Scotland. This figure does not include the biggest item of public expenditure which is social security and old age pensions. This is in the region of £15bn+ and is likely to rise as people lose their jobs.

The figure of £1000bn for UK public expenditure is ridiculous. This would amount to approx. 75% of GDP. the figure is nearer to £500bn.

Please make some attempt to be accurate before you launch into your tirades.
40

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 10:52:33
I predicted a RUN on the Pound way before Osbourne dared to say the words.

Browns strategy is to cause the full collapse of the Un,United Kingdom Economy. He definately intnds to create a Scorched Earth Policy which will leave Westminster NO Choice but to be absorbed fully by the EU Zone. He understands that the majority of English People will never agree to accept the EU Zone, as their Masters, because English People grow up with more pride in who they are than Scots do, because they have never been governed by a foreign power.

Lets face it, the English Controlled Media and the Scottish Media (owned by foreigners) together with paid Vichy Scots in New Labour, LibDums and Tories, divvade up Scotland 50 Years ago.

The Scottish Nation is no better than the Aboriginals of Australia and North America. They depend on their White English Masters, to feed and clothe and supply them enough Booze and Drugs to keep them dumbed down. They are loosers at sport and believe that everyone else from other countries are better than them. They lack confidence as individuals, and only seem happy when they have drunk enough to give them courage.

Yes overall the Scottish Nation are in general a pathetic, weak excuse for people. They would kill anyone who wore a scarf that respresents an opposing teams colours, religion, sex etc etc.....Yet they wont stand up for themselves.

The Catholic Version of a Scot, supports New Labour, because Catholics lived in third world condiditions for hundreds of years and thought New Numpties would fight their case. Aye Right.

The Proddy Version is amongst the thickest of Scots. They carry around colours that would be equal an Aussie Aboriginal wearing Captain Cooks Wig.They celebrate a Battle that was fought for some King or Queen who couldnt give a rats erky for the ordinary volunteer, who were just bullet.Sword collectors of death. They were the Scots who were sent to keep the Irish under English Control, even though England detested t
41

Grahamski,

Falkirk 18/11/2008 10:53:43
44
Charming. I particularly liked the notion of a 'spineless throat'. It's amazing what goes through the un-hinged mind of a zealot mid-rant.
I'm a wee bit disappointed to see you're still trying to peddle the same old grim, tired lies, Henry. Perhaps it's time to change tack (or medication?).
42

Benefits scrounging toilet cleaner ,

18/11/2008 10:56:41
Oh god! Will this affect my benefit fraud?

I think it's crazy when socialist Britain can't just hand out all that free money it gets from the tooth fairy.

What is these madmens' thinking? That people should have to work for money. Forget it! The underclass will just emmigrate to Poland and claim the generous benefits there.

Free Scotland now! Then I can get the free oil money.
43

Miss H,

18/11/2008 10:59:40
Of course budgets are under pressure – duh. Inflation has affected the Scottish Budget which in turn affects the budgets of public bodies like health boards and local authorities etc.

It’s not rocket science is it?

But if we believe Gordon Brown inflation has been halted and indeed deflation will soon be the problem – not sure I am convinced by that argument but let’s take him at his word.

Problem solved.

(In case of doubt I am being sarcastic)

44

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 11:08:31
45 A Better Way
Right from the start of your tirade we can see that your analysis is deeply flawed. You claim that Gordo brown is producing a "scorched earth" policy with a view to the UK having to accep the euro.

If the UK were to adopt the euro it would have to satisy the criteria of the stabilty pact which stipulate the the annual budget deficit should be no more than 3% of GDP. However Brown is borrowing more and is going to tax less thus taking the UK further away from these criteria.

Since we have established how your analysis is based on such limited understanding of realities we can judge how to treat your comments.

45

English flag,

18/11/2008 11:19:06
Salmond has shot himself and the people of Scotland in the foot again!
46

Benefits scrounging toilet cleaner ,

18/11/2008 11:30:00
What about my free money?

I have wasted my life, never worked hard and scrounged of hard working people. Me and my boyfriend do all the things the lower middle-classes can only dream of, and with their money too! lol

We have widescreen televisions, football tickets for the kids (free transport there too, courtesy of the tax-payer), we go on holidays, buy illegal smokes VAT free. Why waste money on VAT/Tax on fags? When I need operations because of lung cancer, those are free too, no one checks.

Is this going to stop now? Has the system crashed because those at the top are as bad as those at the bottom?

Has someone had the cheeck to suggest that the middle classes deserve their pensions, savings, tax back, services? Surely that is the "Nasty" party speaking.

I think we should vote SNP. In an independence Scotland we can keep on partying with free money from the middle-classes.
47

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/11/2008 11:40:49
Fellow Scots do not allow the negative Uncle tom vichy Quislings get to you.
Scotland is in a bad state , because of the Union not any inadequacy in the Scottish Nation.
the UK is in the worst position of all G* countries , in a couple of years Westminster will need to go begging to Iceland for dosh things are that bad here
48

alanh,

ek 18/11/2008 11:44:25
here endeth today's broadcast on behalf of the new liebour north briton division
49

Lyni,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 11:51:50
Labour Party scaremongering again, what a surprise. They have been trying to scare us off for decades and we accepted it for such a long time. Now, many of us have wakened up to the fact and will not be frightened off any more. Yes we are in for hard times, but it is not Alex Salmonds fault. Surely the majority of people living in this country can see that.
50

An Greumach Mor,

Scotland 18/11/2008 12:01:05
The Scotsman prints an article written by two supporters of the labour party who specify that many of the SNP flag ship policies are to blame for the financial crisis.

Can you imagine how they would deal with a report commissioned by family members, husbands and wifes of SNP leaders.

How very unbiased.

It makes me certain that they are concerned enough to sacrifice any attempt at credibility as honest journalists to print ZaNu Labour rubbish.

As for the economic down turn, we have never experienced the good times for the few hundred years if ever so more of the same for us but at least we are used to it.
51

Comment is Free,

U.S. 18/11/2008 12:03:11
Westminster Policy Poodles have obviously not had an economic bathing in quite some time.

Look. This IS the SAME self-serving argument that WESTMINSTER tossed at the 13 Colonies that told it to GET STUFFED in 1776. Westminster was WRONG then and Westminster is WRONG now.

Please. Do yourselves a favor. Read some English Colonial History. Scotland is an English Colony right now. It has been since 1707.

As someone who has had many of their family emigrate from Scotland (in the past) due to historical mismanagement and hatred, by and of the English, of them and towards them, and come to the country that first told the English Colonial Power to stuff it, it is very galling to see Scots in Scotland still treated as so much offal.

Make the insanity stop.
52

English flag,

18/11/2008 12:06:09
52. Are you for real! you're either very stupid or a wind-up merchant, either way, take your small minded rhetoric and get lost.
53

TWC,

18/11/2008 12:13:55
Rules, WU , Grahamski -- Like new Labour no policies just dislike of anyone who doesn't agree with New labour .
It is a sad pesron who thinks the way you do. But Scotland will get control of its money one way or the other
54

English flag,

18/11/2008 12:14:31
still treated as so much offal. WHAT! you really need to get out more,how many pieces of "offal" get 23 billion every year to do with as they wish!
55

English flag,

18/11/2008 12:16:26
TWC. Not in your lifetime.
56

English flag,

18/11/2008 12:16:30
TWC. Not in your lifetime.
57

,

18/11/2008 12:29:00
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58

,

18/11/2008 12:30:36
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59

Dorian,

18/11/2008 12:31:22
Aw it's great being Scottish and living in Scotland, every day I give myself a pat on the back because we Scots are so clever, getting the English to subsidise our services, which are much better than in England. Yep, it's GREAT living in Scotland, I mean who wouldn't want to, there are lots of English people here too you know, they must think it is brilliant that Scotland gets FREE MONEY to spend on it's services, yes FREE MONEY. We don't pay anything for the hand outs we get, it's great.
60

,

18/11/2008 12:33:36
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61

Arfur,

18/11/2008 12:45:29
SNP bad blah blah blah blah - usual guff from the hootsman.

I cant believe some of you unionists. The reason Britain is going to get hit so hard is down to London, Labour and Gordon Brown. The Scottish economy is being tore to pieces by London, Labour and Gordon Brown. Yet you sad pathetic losers come on here mince on about Salmond and the SNP.

I have never been one to say if you support the union then you are a traitor and all that. But it has become clear and undeniable that London, Labour and Gordon Brown has declared war on Scotland and will do anything to bring this country down. I am saying this now that you that live in Scotland that try to justify this ARE traitors to this country and are pathetic in your defence of the unjustifiable.
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The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

18/11/2008 12:57:36
#48 It's not just inflation but other issues that could impact on the budget - and two that the SNP government have themselves created.

Firstly, there is John Swinney's financing of his budget through an optimistically high 2% efficiency gains. If he does not achieve them this year then it is going to have some knock-on effect on next year's budget. I have not actually heard or read anything about how far or close they are to reaching that target. Does anyone know?

Secondly, Swinney will have to maintain the Council tax freeze - an inflation-adjusted increase in block grants is not enough as Councils also have to finance any rise in their statutory duty obligations. That of course will depend on legislation and other statutory instruments that are passed.

Obviously because of Barnett there may not be a problem if Brown spends as he says he is going to. By implication it would mean that the SNP government would have more not less scope to finance its priorities.
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HEN BROON 15,

18/11/2008 13:05:18
#42 Hen Broon: am I the only one who thinks you're in urgent need of help? What is it with your obsession with the politics of identity? What happened in your childhood to trigger all this?
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English flag,

18/11/2008 13:09:01
63.Do i detect a case of the "green eyed monster"! with a population of 50 million plus i guess the people of England can afford to treat themselves once in a while,christ, we send you lot enough money,and what do you do with it,fund to--ers like the chav @ 52.
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Stuntman Mike,

18/11/2008 13:11:29
#70: nationalism seems to have warped Hen Broon's whole personality. He's one hell of a sad case, right enough!
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The Master,

18/11/2008 13:25:48
I'm glad the CPPR are of my view: I've been posting for some time that the Nationalists wouldn't have a policy of universal provision of services if they really cared about the most vulnerable in society.

In any event, the cuts which the Nationalists are now being forced to make show that profligate voter bribes such as the abolition of prescription charges, and the CT freeze, have finally come home to roost: they're now going to have to introduce cuts of the type which so damaged them when their old Tartan Tory image was revived in voters' minds when they went to the polling booths in Glenrothes.

Tick! Tock!
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Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 13:30:54
Simple solution, give Scotland all the money it raises (instead of our £30billion pocket money)including Oil and Gas revenues of course and let us get on with it.
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18/11/2008 13:31:30
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Grahamski,

Falkirk 18/11/2008 13:35:03
73
Aye, giving the richest folk in our society free prescriptions and the wealthiest weans free school meals at the expense of the poorest and most vulnerable is money well-spent for the tartan tories...
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English flag,

18/11/2008 13:39:33
74. LOL,you'd be 2.4 billion out of pocket,but hey,that works for me!
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Miss H,

18/11/2008 13:53:06
69 I don't know - they probably will be published. I am quite confident that efficiency savings targets will be met for the simple reason that local authorities get to keep all the efficiency savings they make, the 2% is not simply top sliced off their budgets. It's not a question of John Swinney achieving them therefore.

Council tax freeze - yes, the chances are that there will have to be some negotiations about what policies can be jettisoned by local authorities. But nobody wants to increase council tax, not the councils, not the government and Labour would be committing electoral suicide were they to suggest it.

What the government and councils should do - and probably will - is to decide what actions they can take to a) stimulate the economy and b) ensure a safety for low income individuals and families. Those actions should then be prioritised. If that means ditching some of the pre-agreed policies then so be it. Once the recession starts to really kick in no-one will complain if priorities change. It's common sense.
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Grahamski,

Falkirk 18/11/2008 13:53:34
78
Almu Garter Bran indeed. Don't you just hate Latin?
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English flag,

18/11/2008 14:02:46
78. SORRY, you won't like this but who cares! oil revenue,2007/8 10.4 billion,gas revenue2007/8 5.2billion,whisky exports 2007 2.1 billion,money given to scotland by westminster 30.1 billion,seems westminster gives scotland 13 billion MORE than it earned!
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The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

18/11/2008 14:08:44
#74 #77

The present block grant system based on the Barnett formula is a recipe for pass the buck when it comes to taking responsibility. Holyrood blames Westminster because it says it does not have enough finances; Westminster MPs (especially in the North of England) moan that Scotland gets too much; and so on.

With full fiscal autonomy it would make the Scottish Parliament fully responsible for its actions and unable to pass the buck when things did not go well. Equally there would be no more England subsidises Scotland arguments as it would be a completely redundant argument.

That all being said, one also has to be honest regards the Scottish budget income. Grant Thornton has shown that at $120 a barrel there is budgetary surplus of £4.4 billion whilst at $75 a barrel there is a budgetary deficit of around £1 billion. Therefore any Scottish government working under full fiscal autonomy would have to ensure that it carried forward to cope with times in the economic cycle when deficits were being run. The one worry I do have is that as things stand none of the political parties particularly inspire regards their ability to carry forward any surplus. Both Labour and the SNP, given their manifesto priorities at the last election, strike me as parties who in government will tax and spend - given an income they will spend it regardless. Moreover, with our system of PR it would be likely that any government in coalition with the likes of the Lib Dems or Greens might have to throw them some kind of financial sop to keep them on board.

Therefore, the belief that full fiscal autonomy will somehow bring instant fiscal responsibility is misleading. It will take time for that responsibility to be built up as a Scottish Government learns it has to cope with the bad times as well as the good times.

Now you might think that I am about to say we should not bring in full fiscal autonomy - but you would be wrong. Thus, crazy as it may sound, introducing ful
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The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

18/11/2008 14:09:23
(#82 continued)

Now you might think that I am about to say we should not bring in full fiscal autonomy - but you would be wrong. Thus, crazy as it may sound, introducing full fiscal autonomy during an economic downturn may be no bad thing as Scottish politicians would have to be a lot more focussed in getting the best out of a budget limited by economic factors. It would learn to be more responsible far quicker than if such a policy were introduced during a period of surplus.
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18/11/2008 14:23:21
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Raymond Thomas Brooke,

Leven England 18/11/2008 14:24:27
Brown and Darling should have been shopkeepers with a policy of pay for three only receive two,later pay for three receive one and later still pay for and get nothing
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ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 18/11/2008 14:24:43
Aye ye can always count on our Dave for a good laugh, take his comments on the politician of the year awards yesterday for instance, when he got his scottish history all mixed up by telling us how Alan Breck Stewart was found guilty of the Appin Murder!

Never lets the facts get in the way of a good story does our Dave.

What chance he now does a back ground story into who these 'experts' are?

None.
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18/11/2008 14:27:42
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18/11/2008 14:31:16
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18/11/2008 14:31:45
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Brodric,

18/11/2008 14:42:28
Who really knows anything about the economic downturn and how it is going to develop?

However there are two points here.

1. Can we really trust anything that the UK government says about Scotland's future? Its not as if they don't have a vested interest. So, they cannot be objective. And this downpedalling Scotland all the time is just a bit of a pain in the posterior.

2. At the same time, I don't really agree in total with stuff like giving free prescriptions to all, or cancelling ALL parking charges, or banishing the already cheap cost of crossing on the Forth Road Bridge.

I would much rather pay smaller amounts than cancel them completely. We have to make sure that we have enough cash for real development in Scotland, including adequate social housing; decent rail and road links for ALL Scotland; good sea links with the north of Europe; business development in rural areas.

To my mind giving free prescriptions and free parking at the hospital is a complete aside compared to the big issues facing us - and I don't like gimmicks.
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TWC,

18/11/2008 15:20:33
61 English flag,
You may be flagging I am Certainly not, Scotland will get Full Fiscal Autonomy whether Oil Is $75 or $120 and the people will get it when the threat of Independence continues to grow.
The only peoblem with living here is the neighbours who are unpopular all over the world, mainly thanks to the Labour poodles who Have NO POLICIES to offer.
They have offered nothing since 1997. Scotland will follow the rest of the Empire and go it's own way. They have tried to stay within the union but yet again we see the Manipulation of Scotland by Westmisnter and the Press control.
Sorry for the Rant all who are not Labour poodles.
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AM2 ,

Scotland, UK 18/11/2008 15:30:22
#78: how many times do you have to be told that you're not welcome on here, you culty fruitcake Duncan!
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18/11/2008 15:38:16
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Alan Reid,

Ringkobing 18/11/2008 15:40:55
Independance for England NOW!!
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18/11/2008 15:57:59
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18/11/2008 16:31:51
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18/11/2008 16:35:19
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brownlie,

18/11/2008 16:37:12
92 AM2

"You can fool some people etc etc."

You're, on the other hand, always welcome.
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18/11/2008 16:39:57
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18/11/2008 16:40:28
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18/11/2008 16:44:14
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18/11/2008 16:46:04
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18/11/2008 16:53:13
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Scottish Toryboy is back,

18/11/2008 17:14:35
#105 : I think you'll find that multiple monikers are necessary for effective organised lobbying; it's commonplace…so what!

Having said that, I think you can all guess who's behind me...
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TWC,

18/11/2008 17:21:33
104 sm753,you are a Labour poodle, Scots who support the Union also support full fiscal Autonomy.
All you support is the Labour party so you must be anti Scottish.
We can manage our own money
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18/11/2008 17:24:37
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brownlie,

18/11/2008 17:26:40
99 AM2

Has obesity gone to your head? How apt!
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Warden An' All, Reborn,

18/11/2008 17:38:03
Financially speaking when things are rocky it is those who steady the ship who are heroes, where as in more stable times those who take calculated chances advance the economy. It was known when the snp conned their way into government in Scotland the world economy was heading towards harder times. So cut backs in services were always going to happen. The snp either already knew this would happen or they were negligent and are economically naïve. If they knew it was likely to happen the resulting upset from cutbacks were a calculated ploy for political jollies, if it was naivety then heaven help all of us.
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Miss H,

18/11/2008 17:48:15
112 Surprised you would credit the SNP with such foresight. But yes - having spent the past 12 months arguing against the SNP's council tax freeze and LIT tax cut Labour are now accepting that tax cuts targeted to benefit middle and low earners are necessary.

Better late than never I guess.
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Stuntman Mike,

18/11/2008 17:52:44
#113: you do have a way of twisting things!
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18/11/2008 17:53:27
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18/11/2008 17:55:01
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Stuntman Mike,

18/11/2008 18:03:00
#115 But the block grant increases were unsustainably high, as you well know as a putative supporter of what you refer to as "the union".
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18/11/2008 18:10:35
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Stuntman Mike,

18/11/2008 18:16:44
#118: but it had been rising at an astounding rate since the formation of the SP: the last increase just redressed the balance. Compare what Dewar had to work with and what Salmdon has in real terms. Fair's fair!
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18/11/2008 18:22:33
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Miss H,

18/11/2008 18:33:06
114 Maybe you are right. Perhaps the only reason they are getting ready to cut taxes is to win a general election.

Cut now, pay later.
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Stuntman Mike,

18/11/2008 18:35:16
#120 : but you've got to see the last increase in the context of what went before.
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18/11/2008 18:38:31
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18/11/2008 18:39:06
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HEN BROON 15,

18/11/2008 18:41:59
#122: how many times? I'm surprised the SNP themselves don't discourage you from coming on here; we all know you're a pastiche of a rabid Nat!
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18/11/2008 18:42:27
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18/11/2008 18:43:01
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18/11/2008 19:15:21
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brownlie,

18/11/2008 19:18:55
129 Union is Best

Failte, tha sinn ceart!
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18/11/2008 19:20:18
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brownlie,

18/11/2008 19:23:11
131 Union is best

Rubbish, united we stand - although sometimes we fall after whisky-tasting sessions. Talking of which, did you know that alcohol can adversely affect curtains?
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18/11/2008 19:26:25
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brownlie,

18/11/2008 19:37:36
133 Union is Best

I've heard that if you go near them with a lit (not to be confused with anything thought up by the nats) match after consuming a few drams they miraculously self-combust but only if you're a true-blue unionist.

Beat that, you nats!!
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18/11/2008 19:40:13
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brownlie,

18/11/2008 19:46:56
135 Union is best

Yes, tragic tale. It seems that the old lady saw a big red object glowing in the dark and thought that she'd wandered into the Reeperbahn and fainted with shock. A kindly passing unionist tried to give her the kiss of life which frightened the living day-lights out of her. Lord knows what the big red shining object could have been.
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brownlie,

18/11/2008 19:48:01
136

Is that how you spell "nose"?
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brownlie,

18/11/2008 19:58:20
135 Union is Best

Must toddle off just now. Catch you at the morning briefing tomorrow. I understand that Highland and Grahamski are giving us a lecture on how to put the fun, satire and laughter into unionism. Can you ensure that Rufus attends as they are performing for his benefit.
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18/11/2008 21:36:04
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18/11/2008 21:41:11
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18/11/2008 21:58:25
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18/11/2008 22:00:31
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18/11/2008 22:05:58
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karin.m,

18/11/2008 23:22:33
has anyone got a link to the bnp membership list that has been published on the net. i want to know if anyone in my street is on it.
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karin.m,

18/11/2008 23:40:43
never mind i found it..........
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subrosa,

19/11/2008 01:20:28
# 141

Aye but where's the hilt? Don't look behind you :-)
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subrosa,

19/11/2008 01:22:10
# 151

Karin can you tiny it if possible?
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subrosa,

19/11/2008 01:39:12
# 151

Got it now Karin. Just needed to do a little research.

 

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