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Burials, schools and bin emptying to be hit in spiralling pay row

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Published Date: 18 November 2008
UNION leaders have warned that council services are likely to be hit by more strikes if their members do not get an improved pay offer.
Yesterday, 25,000 members of the GMB union joined Unite in voting to continue industrial action. The decision could mean that bodies go unburied, schools have to close and rubbish remains uncollected.

GMB members were unhappy with an offer of
a 3 per cent rise this year and 2.6 per cent next year, and voted two to one against it.

The two unions – the GMB and Unite – represent about a third of Scotland's council workforce, but have been left to fight the dispute alone after the 100,000 Unison members last week voted to accept the offer.

But Alex McLuckie, GMB's senior Scottish organiser, has claimed his members include more of the low-paid workers who need a better pay deal.

He said: "Obviously, we will have to assess our tactics now that Unison members have agreed to settle. But we believe we can still cause significant disruption and, if that is the case, then we will be willing to continue with industrial action.

"Our members have given us a very clear message and that is this deal is unfair and does not address their low pay."

But GMB and Unite members look set to be faced with little movement from council bosses represented at the bargaining table by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities (Cosla).

They have been buoyed by the acceptance of the offer by members of the biggest local government, Unison, against the recommendation of their officials.

A Cosla spokesman said: "Obviously, we are disappointed that members of the GMB have rejected our pay offer. However, the majority of our employees have accepted. We now await the joint trade union response."

The dispute, at a time of economic crisis, has seen Scottish Labour leader Iain Gray dragged into the row. His support for strikers during his leadership bid appeared to have cooled.

He said: "I have always said the original offer was not fair or reasonable in changed economic circumstances, particularly for low-paid council workers. The new offer is clearly better but hasn't addressed the issue of low pay to the satisfaction of GMB and Unite. I hope employers and unions can find a way to resolve this before further strike action results."

But he was ridiculed by opponents. The SNP MSP Christina McKelvie, a former social worker and shop steward, said: "It doesn't surprise me that we see Labour politicians take a different position once they secure the prize. Too often, trade union members are used as political pawns by the Labour Party."

Tavish Scott, leader of the Liberal Democrats in Scotland, has urged the Scottish Government to step in to stop a fresh round of council strikes.





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 17 November 2008 10:06 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

subrosa,

18/11/2008 00:59:26
The unions seem hell bent on ensuring strikes continue in Scotland. Just the other week one union rejected further strikes. There must have been a further ballot. What is the percentage that has to vote in a ballot before the result can be official?


2

Snuffy Ivy,

Aberdeen 18/11/2008 01:20:25
STRIKES: The face of Scotland's past, present and future.
Scots (in Scotland) are being viewed as a lazy lot.

Independence couldn't work because the WILL to work just doesn't exist. Gordon Brown wins his point.

3

drunken proffet,

Tassy 18/11/2008 01:28:59
Taking all things into consideration, life is as it should be. The government looks after your children, the bankers look after your money and the unions look after your jobs.
4

Snuffy Ivy,

Aberdeen. UK 18/11/2008 01:46:54
#3
"The government looks after your children, the bankers look after your money and the unions look after your jobs".

I hope you were being satirical! If not,
I Suggest you check-out the car building and textile industry in the UK since the 70's. The unions have done an excellent job!
5

drunken proffet,

Tassy 18/11/2008 01:51:48
#4 Snuffy Ivy, I apologise for my warped sense of humour. I should have put one of those smiley things on my posting, but cannot find it on the keyboard. Or do you believe that the government does look after your children and the bankers your money.
6

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 18/11/2008 02:39:21
Irony is wasted on the stupid!!
7

Snuffy Ivy,

Aberdeen. 18/11/2008 02:58:30
#5 I can't find my smiley faces either!
Wouldn't trust government with my kids.
But the biscuit tin under the bed has proven to be a safer place for my money than the banks!
8

Navvy,

18/11/2008 04:38:05
of course the Scots won't join an English strike, will they?
9

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 18/11/2008 04:52:22
"But Alex McLuckie, GMB's senior Scottish organiser, has claimed his members include more of the low-paid workers who need a better pay deal"

Well Alex, who imposed a tax increase recently on these same low paid workers?

A tax increase that has taken more out of their pay packets than any pay increase will put in.

Alex McLuckie:-

Stupid?

Blinded by following the party line?

In-observant?

Party placeman?

Just WHO do you represent pal?

10

Grahamski,

Falkirk 18/11/2008 07:09:23
9.
Ah, the SNP and their supporters adopt their default position of personal abuse and attacking the trades unions. Charming.
No wonder they are called the tartan tories, a truly nasty party, or have I transposed the 's' and 't'?
11

drunken proffet,

Tassy 18/11/2008 07:32:12
#10 Grahamski, the trade unions were an essential part of life from the thirties through to the sixties, then fell by the wayside. The government introduced measures that were supposed to improve child education and equality in the population and got it wrong. The bankers in the late seventies gave up an honourable profession and went for bonuses and greed. The industrial management throughout that time had neither the education nor the finance to modernise the UK industrial base. You are left with service industries as part of government policy. Who do you want to blame? As an SNP supporter most of my life I would say the last thing Scotland needs at present is independence. You have to work together, it is not as if you are peasants with a one track mind. The Scots have great ability. Maybe a few generations from now you can get truly serious about independence, and lets have no negative votes.
12

Grahamski,

Falkirk 18/11/2008 07:46:09
11
The unions have played a crucial role in our society and continue to do so. I think it is very telling when people lose sight of the simple truth that the unions are the result of working people combining to defend their rights and advance their interests.
It is only to be expected that reactionary political forces will find this notion threatening. Nationalism in itself is a reactionary political philosophy and as such I'm not surprised to read the anti-trades union comments of nationalists. Indeed, the biggest SNP donor, Mr Soutar was seen only a week or so ago cheerfully strikebreaking as he scabbed behind the wheel of one of his buses.
What irritates me is the misguided souls in the SNP who would attempt to portray the SNP as a left of centre party. (A tartan version of Lenin's 'useful idiots'). The SNP by its very nature will always be of the right no matter how often the first minister and his cohorts posture and preen.
13

drunken proffet,

Tassy 18/11/2008 08:18:42
12. Grahamski, your choice of words suggest a strong connection to the trade union movement. Not a lot wrong with that, however if you keep repeating history and trade union dogma you are on a hiding to nothing. Folk are not daft, your organisation has failed the ordinary man in the street for the last thirty years. However if you wish to join the 21st century, you will find that your services will be more important, if you get your act together. Lets face it, the powers that be are not going to get any prettier.
14

Gdgy,

dndy 18/11/2008 08:22:33
The SNP hate the Unions because they have popular support and deliver on their promises to represent their membership...the fact that they are aligned with Labour just sharpens the hatred....And it reminds the SNP that have no roots, no natural electorate, no reason for being.....especially when the SNP refuse to move for independence....
15

Grahamski,

Falkirk 18/11/2008 08:32:59
13
The trades unions are only as powerful as their members, the trades unions are the organied workers of this country. As such, to suggest that the working person has let themselves down over the past thirty years is rather harsh. Society and our economy has changed over the last thirty years and the ability of working people to defend themselves and control their destiny has become ever more difficult.
It is crucial for teh well-being of working people throughout this country that teh trades unions remain free, strong and represetative as we all suffer the ravages of an economic system which favours the few at the expense of the many.
16

drunken proffet,

Tassy 18/11/2008 08:51:03
Grahamski, who said it was going to be easy. You are right, the population of ordinary folk will suffer the ravages of an economic system which favours the few at the expense of many. However if you do not get folk who understand world trade or economics you are going to wipe out a lot of wee companies whose only sin was to pay under the rate for a good job done. You really have to get your ar*e into gear, if you do not well you go into history as folk who exaggerated their own importance.
17

drunken proffet,

Tassy 18/11/2008 08:52:31
I may add that my granchildren do not listen to a word I say either.
18

subrosa,

18/11/2008 09:07:49
# 14 What drivel. I don't like unions because I've had experience of the way they operate. They are NOT there for their members, they are there to improve their chances within the labour party hierarchy. This attitude has augmented over the past 30 years and now, the member is nothing but a tolerated pest.

It's nothing to do with my politics whatsoever. When I was a floating voter in England I felt exactly the same way.
19

Grahamski,

Falkirk 18/11/2008 09:16:40
18
The true face of the SNP; intolerant, dogmatic and very very right wing......
20

Jimmy Le Pie,

18/11/2008 09:34:02
#19

I'm a member of the RMT and the SNP.

And that makes me a Tory??

You really are a buffoon.
21

drunken proffet,

Tassy 18/11/2008 09:34:54
Ach Grahamski don't take it so hard, you guys really are history. However we are Scots and will re-invent the trade union movement yet again, but this time maybe leave out the English.
22

Grahamski,

Falkirk 18/11/2008 09:37:31
20
No, it makes you a trades unionist who is a member of a tory party, and you call me a buffoon?
23

Grahamski,

Falkirk 18/11/2008 09:38:08
21
probably best to leave out the English, eh?
24

Alan B,

18/11/2008 09:45:49
Unfortunately the unions are playing silly games.

If they wanted to really address low pay then you take action when the government was throwing money about like confetti for the last 10yrs. You do not strike during an economic meltdown and deficits are going threw the roof.
25

Grahamski,

Falkirk 18/11/2008 09:58:41
24
'Unfortunately the unions are playing silly games.'
'If they wanted to really address low pay...'
I think you have made your position absolutely clear. The trades unions are democratic organisations dedicaterd to defending working people and their rights. Good to see the so-called left of centre nationalist party displaying all the signs of right wing tory-dom in thier hatred for all things working class. Tartan tories indeed.
26

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 18/11/2008 10:22:31
Good Morning Grahamski it was my turn yesterday to get called a workshy public sector waste of space etc etc, so you keep up the good work today. I don't understand why some people seem to find it so hard to accept that trade unions are there to get higher wages and better working conditions, it seems quite straightforward to me.
27

Alan B,

18/11/2008 10:32:05
#Grahamski

Your posts are getting more and more ridiculous. Your responses are typical of the dumbed down labour party. Ignore what someone actually says and then throw insults.

"The trades unions are democratic organisations dedicaterd to defending working people "

That is what they should be. Unfortunately some of their leadership have got so tied into the corrupt labour party.

28

G,

dndy 18/11/2008 10:32:27
#18 I didn't say you hated Unions, unless you are also a SNPite...your reasons for hating Unions might be more personal, even psychological or sociopathic..I can't say BUT unions support their members every day in many ways.....thousands of people continue to be union members long past the time that they had to be SO they must be getting something out of it!!!
29

Alan B,

18/11/2008 10:36:07
#Grahamski

"Tartan tories indeed"

If you mean by tory a capitalist party. Then lets be honest. Labour have turned themselves into a tory party. The snp are a tory party. The lib dems are a tory party.

The have all rejected socialism largely due to the failures of labour in the 70s which decimated the uk economy. And are all running some varient version of capitalism.

Labour use of pfi and private sector involvement in the public sector is also more intrenched than under thatcher so in that particular area labour are more right wing than thatcher.
30

Grahamski,

Falkirk 18/11/2008 11:11:06
29
No, I mean a party which is rightwing and which opposes workers rights. Just like the SNP in fact....
31

Grahamski,

Falkirk 18/11/2008 11:14:47
26
Hi Observer,
I'll never understand why you ally yourself with such a bunch of reactionary nitwits.
32

Alan B,

18/11/2008 11:28:14
#Grahamski

"I mean a party which is rightwing "

Your analysis does not stand up to scrutiny. So what is right wing.

A)Use of private sector in public services
Labour is the most right wing government we have had in that perspective

B)Wars: Labour is far more right wing in their approach than most tory governments have ever been and far to the right of the snp and lib dems

C) Economic - capitalist - all 4 parties of labour, tory, lib dem and snp are capitalist parties. As such they can all be defined as rightish wing in economic terms. They can all spin about being left of centre but they are all capitalist parties whose claim to any leftishness is tax.

Looking at the economic argument further:
1)free trade - Brown is currently talking up free trade and against trade protectionism. All the 4 parties are pretty much in line and all right wing here.

2)means of production in the private sector: all the 4 parties are right wing here.

3)taxation:
a)level of tax: labour are probably to the left on levels of tax as they seem to be the highest tax party. However high tax is not actually left wing as real left wing parties do not need high tax as the means of production is by the state. But the snp and lib dems before clegg are more leftish as they want to lessen the tax burden on the poor whereas labour are just tax everyone but the rich as much as possible.

b)method of tax: labour have followed the tory lead to regressive taxation pretty right wing.

c)fiscal balance: weirdly labour are much more like the republicans in the US. Both run fiscally irresponsible budgets. So is running a lax fiscal policy left wing despite the right wing US government following that policy? I would probably say yes as fiscal deficits is a traditonally a leftish policy.

4)employment regualations: difficult to call as there are more than one way to skin a cat. I would say that the snp, lib dems and labour are pretty much of a much.


D)Helping the vulnerab
33

Alan B,

18/11/2008 11:28:29
...
D)Helping the vulnerable

Labour have also been been pretty vindictive towards pensioners.
34

Jimmy Le Pie,

18/11/2008 11:31:43
#22

And you're a member of that well known left wing, warmongering 'socialist' party, New Labour Sleaze and Corruption run by multi millionaires and serial liars???

Don't make me laugh!!!
35

Grahamski,

Falkirk 18/11/2008 11:49:01
Alan,
You seem to have missed out the increased spending on health, education and local services enacted by the Labour Party. You've overlooked the minimum wage introduced by Laboor and the fact that unemployment was more than halved when Labour took over.
Make no mistake: The Labour Party supports the interests of the working folk.
36

Stuart505,

Glasgow 18/11/2008 11:51:53
Grahamski: You keep promoting Labour and Trade Unionism in a way that exists only in in dreams, the ideological purity that can only be preached in Opposition. I believe our principles (you and me) are very similar. However, I am looking at a Labour Party in power, and judging them on their actions - 10p Tax rate, Iraq War, Trident, intensely relaxed re. filthy rich, Economic ineptitude on a gargantuan scale, and more lies than any Government has ever told, known popularly as 'spin'.

What are you looking at?
37

Alan B,

18/11/2008 11:52:06
#Hoots

And the increase for the scottish parliament was 0.5% and 1.4% over the 3yr period.

Seriously. Budgets for the scottish parliament went up by huge amounts over the past decade. If there is was issues with low pay that is the time when there is tonnes of money about to deal with low pay. It is not the best time when Brown has lead us all into an economic meltdown.

The country is going to have deficits of near 100billion by some calculations. Where is the money going to come from to fund increases and also pay for the tax rises to fund the deficits, the massive increase in welfare payments etc.

At the end of the day to fund increases in pay for the public sector worker it means hitting his private sector counterpart with higher taxes as everything has to be paid for (or cutting the number of public sector workers to improve the pay of those left). A private sector worker already being hit with lower incomes, unemployment, fear of unemployment, higher inflation and costs and similar mortage problems etc.
38

Grahamski,

Falkirk 18/11/2008 11:52:35
34
Jeez Jimmy,
Is that pie in yer name tae go with thae chips on yer shoulders?
39

Grahamski,

Falkirk 18/11/2008 11:56:25
37
I'm looking at a movement forged in the heat of industrial conflict committed to serving and protecting working people. I know it's fashionable to take cheap shots at organised labour. It always has been for the forces of reaction. I just hope you're comfortable siding with the forces of darkness against us.
40

Stuart505,

Glasgow 18/11/2008 11:58:52
40:
"I'm looking at a movement forged in the heat of industrial conflict committed to serving and protecting working people."

Well you're not looking at New Labour then.
41

Jimmy Le Pie,

18/11/2008 11:59:36
#39

Do you consider David Marshall, ex MP for Glasgow East, to be left wing or right wing???

Would you call him a good 'socialist'?
42

Alan B,

18/11/2008 12:06:59
#36 Grahamski

"You seem to have missed out the increased spending on health, education and local services enacted by the Labour Party."

If you reread my post you will see i mentioned

"labour are probably to the left on levels of tax as they seem to be the highest tax party."

Your post is not about what labour did or did not do but a silly post about labour left and snp right. When in truth both are really rightish wing parties in economic terms from a historical point of view.

I do not have a problem with some of labours right wing policies. But i think it is daft to try to sell them as the left wing party. It is just a dumbed down argument.

"You've overlooked the minimum wage introduced by Labour"

Good policy and it was supported by both the lib dems and snp. (We would have had it sooner in scotland if we were not tied to the union.)

I was also very supportive of indepedence of the BOE.

"unemployment was more than halved when Labour took over."

I believe labour have been poor economically. In scotland labour bounced scotland into a manufacturing recession in the late 90s and then took scotland into a full recession in 2001/2002. They have done little to improve scotland dire economic growth rate which is so important to economic performance.

In uk terms labour have built an economy on debt. Brown has over spent breaking his own golden rules of economic stability. He has been completely irresponsible in building an economy on private consumer debt by again breaking his promise to control house price inflation. The only good part of his economic mgt was independence of the BOE.

As such much of the jobs you talk about are public sector jobs nothing wrong with that but need to be funded by proper wealth generation which has been sadly missing. (if i remember correctly there was a faster rate of manufactuing decline under labour than under the tories for a while).

Much of the employment was therefore generated by running big def
43

Alan B,

18/11/2008 12:07:16
...deficits and consumer debt. Labour have also cynically used incapacity benefit to hide unemployment far more than the tories did.

"Make no mistake: The Labour Party supports the interests of the working folk."

I think labour used to have its heart in the right place but was deluded with its policies and now it has got so corrupted.
44

Alan B,

18/11/2008 12:12:55
#Grahamski

If you are a trade unionist I think you do your cause no justice.

While you probably think you are funny your post are normally just mud raking lowest common denominator support the labour party at all costs.

Lets face it some people want the union and think that is the best way forward and others think independence is the way forward. If you take your extreme anti nat position and present that as a unionist view those that do not share your view will view unionist as selling out the working man to dance with the devil and corrupt labour party.
45

Alan B,

18/11/2008 12:17:44
#Grahamski

"Make no mistake: The Labour Party supports the interests of the working folk."

The current labour party under browns economic management have sold out the work folk. They have been obsessed with power for themselves.

Brown has run the economy into the ground by running deliberate short term economic policies.

He said he would run the economy in a stable and prudent manner. look at the 2 keys
1)he said he would adhere to his golden rule not to borrow over the economic cycle. - he started off ok and then lied.

2)he said he would control house prices that have exposed the economy to so much consumer debt. He lied.

We have had a chancellor who has sold out the workers for his own 15minutes of fame.
46

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

18/11/2008 12:27:46
#27 They are democratic Alan - they can't have a strike without the members voting for it - no matter what the union leadership may advise.

I actually don't particularly think that strike action is the best form of industrial action - but I will sure as hell defend any workers right to take that action.
47

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

18/11/2008 12:39:17
Anyone who thinks that Unite and the GMB are in cahoots with Labour over this are missing the wider picture. The GMB and Unite are still in a long-running dispute with the local government employers association over pay in England, Northern Ireland and Wales. They had a series of strikes in July over this issue.

It has much more to do with the fact that inflation has made many pay awards in reality pay cuts. It's not surprising that unions are flexing their muscles over pay. It's not the first industrial action we have had this year over pay and it won't be the last.
48

Grahamski,

Falkirk 18/11/2008 12:41:37
Alan B
The Labour government over the past ten years has delivered a whole range of policies which have benefited those who are most in need. By all means carry on the negative and partisan girning so beloved of the nats. It is becoming less and less relevant as the economic crisis bites and the people realise that these serious times demand serious people.
49

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 18/11/2008 13:01:13
49 you are right. Some posters seem to think that union members can get worked up the back by Labour to cause trouble for the SNP Government. That is very insulting to the individuals who have made these decisions in a secret ballot.

Grahamski I don't ally myself with any reactionary nitwits. Just because some SNP supporters may have anti trade union views, that doesn't mean that is the SNP's position. And many union members support the SNP, remember that too. Some of them might even be going out on strike soon.
50

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 18/11/2008 13:02:45
Grahamski @ 50 get your head up and look around you laddie, You seem to seriously think that GB and AD are the men to fix the problem? Really?

I love your bit about negative and partisan do the words pot calling the kettle black rings any bells.

I have colleagues all over Europe at no time during the financial crisis have they told me how they think GB is doing a terrific job. They do ask me why he allowed the credit card house bubble to get out of control! Rings any bells?
51

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 18/11/2008 13:05:19
In Europe they refer to the UK's mad love affair with house prices as anglo saxon problem.
52

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 18/11/2008 13:11:46
Grahamski a colleague of mine in Germany recently built his home he was in his early fifties, it was his first house as he rented for most of his life.

This is very common in Germany, folk rent for a long time before building or buying their home which they live in and see as their home, not an object of financial gain.

Germany are in recession because the world is not buying there manufactured goods to the same extent, we are in recession because your pal Gordon Brown blew up the economy with ill informed policies.
53

Grahamski,

Falkirk 18/11/2008 13:18:00
53
The only bells your post rings is the one that signals closing time for sniping nats.
I'm sure I'm not alone in being utterly bored by the continual sniping about Mr Brown. It is so patently the sound of unaldulterated envy when you hear the pygmies of the SNP yap at the world statesman that is our PM. The nats are condemned to hiss that they kent his faither. Wee, bitter, spiteful men........
54

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 18/11/2008 13:29:28
Grahamski are right laddie. No the noise that I along with my fellow nationalists and those that are apolitical are done from the viewpoint of experience in the world of business and commerce.

I ran my own service company for 7 years and apart from the public sector, I have worked in every major sector in the private sector. The things that I learned and experienced lead me the judgement that Gordon Brown ran the economy in a slipshot fashion not based on experience and sound decision making but on political calcualation and spin.

The roots of the current problems were sown back in the years 2000 onwards. My criticism is of the man's decision making and politics and not of him as a human being, in fact I posted sometime ago that he'd better look after himself as he looks like a prime candidate for a MI or stroke.
55

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 18/11/2008 13:29:45
''the pygmies of the SNP yap at the world statesman that is our PM''....

Oh do behave.
56

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 18/11/2008 13:31:49
Grahamski also the comments pointed to Gordon Brown pale into nothing compared to the comments about Alex Salmond from various folk on these threads.
57

Miss H,

18/11/2008 13:37:19
Grajamski, GDundy - you are being naïve if you think Labour will support the unions here. They will say the SNP Government should sort it out (just as we used to say they should sort it out when we were the opposition and they were the government). And of course Labour will say all the right things to unions behind closed doors because they want to keep them on board but the political reality is that supporting this strike action would make Labour even more unpopular with the 75% of the population who do not work for the public sector – as well as the majority of the 25% who do but have not taken industrial action over their pay.

Note I am not saying that unions have no case or no right to strike – just that in today’s financial climate when we are facing the prospect of mass unemployment and economic meltdown they will get very little public support and the same goes for any party which supports them.
58

Grahamski,

Falkirk 18/11/2008 13:38:05
59
Who's talking about these threads? The shrieking and poison seep out of SNP HQ. If only it was just the lunatic fringe of cybernats who were guilty....
59

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 18/11/2008 13:50:48
''in today's financial climate when we are facing the prospect of mass unemployment and economic meltdown'' is when workers should volunteer for a pay cut ? That has always seemed a bizarre idea to me. Let's get this straight - the money to pay bin men and home helps a decent wage is not going to make a significant difference to the Government's balance book. It will, in fact, be a drop in the ocean compared to the vast bail outs being given to the banks, with no cast iron guarantee that the recapitalisation will work.

It is unfortunate that both the SNP and the Labour Party support state capitalism as opposed to socialism, but that is no reason to jettison trade unionism which can, and I think should, stand independently of any political party.
60

Miss H,

18/11/2008 14:19:13
62 I am not saying that binmen and so on don’t deserve a decent wage. I am saying that in a situation where tens of thousands of people are losing their jobs and hundreds of thousands more are scared of losing theirs there will be very little public sympathy for strike action by people whose jobs are relatively secure.

I would also point out that the employers in this dispute are local councils not Westminster. Yes Westminster could in theory increase resources to the Scottish Government which could in turn increase resources for local government which could then settle the pay dispute.

But I think we all know that is not going to happen.
61

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 18/11/2008 14:30:02
Grahamski@61 You keep on clinging to your comfort blanket with that nonesense, with our economy in the toilet and Gordon's Brown hand on the flush.
62

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 18/11/2008 14:35:33
As to the Story everybody has the right to withdraw there labours and everybody has a right to a decent standard of living the crux comes in the fact that Scotland's budget is fixed and if the unions want more money for there memmbers, that money will have to come from another part of government we would be robbing peter to pay paul.
63

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 18/11/2008 14:49:17
63 It's a very defeatist attitude to say that workers should be so glad they've got a job they should volunteer for a pay cut. It's also an attitude that governments rely on to keep us in our place !
64

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 18/11/2008 15:11:07
Observer I have never been in a union and I have seen and studied enough about industrial relations in Scotland that both sides have taken established views.

Lets be honest the bowler and the bunnet still exists. I have always found that talking and being honest is always a better standpoint than anything else Mrs Tormod works in the NHS and is a member of Unison. As far I can see they have been a barrier to real and lasting change in the health service because as I see it it's all about power collective bargaining et al.

We need to have a more grown up discussion with our public employees as they do an excellent job. We need to be honest about pension provision and pay etc.

Sometimes the union leadership still think it's 1895, it's them against us, instead of all of us against Scotlands problems.
65

Miss H,

18/11/2008 15:13:33
68 It’s not defeatist to recognise that majority public opinion is hostile to trade unionism. Perhaps trade unions should consider doing a bit more about trying to influence public opinion in their favour. Unfortunately the communication and presentation skills of the trade union movement in the post-industrial world has had pretty much the opposite effect.
66

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 18/11/2008 15:32:37
70 I'm not sure that the majority of public opinion is hostile, perhaps those people who are not in trade unions are hostile, I don't know. I also know that at the time of writing the majority public opinion is hostile to nationalism in Scotland, that doesn't make them right. And both trade unions and nationalists are regularly savaged by the media, that isn't right either, but it is influential. It seems to have worked with you.
67

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 18/11/2008 15:39:00
69 I've never worked in the NHS so I can't comment. As far as I can tell this dispute is about wages, nothing else. I think trade unions are about higher wages and better working conditions, that can bring them into dispute with employers, that's unavoidable. People are, I think, reading too much into what is a very simple trade dispute.
68

Miss H,

18/11/2008 15:42:33
71 Agree that majority public opinion is not at the moment in favour of full independence which is why the SNP has a lot of work to do to persuade people. But we recognise it is our job to persuade people - it is not their job to be persuaded.

69

Alan B,

18/11/2008 16:34:34
#The Federalist

My point was that the unions would have been far better trying to get a decent wage for low wage earners when there was alot of money being thrown at the public sector than now when the whole economy is going into meltdown.

I find it difficult to understand why a union leader would not strike when there is alot of money in the kitty and then strike when the uk is going up s**** creak.

Maybe you could explain that rational.
70

Alan B,

18/11/2008 16:39:11
#Grahamski

"It is becoming less and less relevant as the economic crisis bites and the people realise that these serious times demand serious people."

Good sound bite but Brown has caused much of the economic mess.

Brown ignored the economic fundamentals left the uk in a position that makes it very difficult to cope with this crisis.


My problem with labour is two fold:
1)failure to address scotland slow economic growth
2)run the uk based on short term economic policy possibly for political reasons and undermined the long term economy in doing so.

Problem with you is while i say Brown did well making the BOE independence and bring in min wage. You on the other hand refuse to admit the complete and utter mess he has made of the economy.
71

Warden An' All, Reborn,

18/11/2008 17:40:07
The thing about unions is they unite people and groups, where as the snp divides people and groups in order to exploit the situation. Remember what they say, united we stand, divided we fall, the snps aim is for division.

 

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