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Attacks on Poles 'fuelled by the BBC's coverage of immigration'

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Published Date: 05 June 2008
THE BBC has been accused of fuelling attacks on Poles by exploiting them to highlight immigration rather than using other ethnic minority arrivals for fear of being branded racist.
The criticism was made by Daniel Kawczynski, a Conservative MP of Polish extraction.

He highlighted his concerns in the Commons when he introduced a bill calling for a bank holiday to mark the positive contribution Poles have made to the UK since
1940. It has little chance of becoming law.

His claims were strongly denied by the BBC, which has insisted its coverage has been balanced and pointed to a lack of statistics to prove his claims of sustained assaults on Poles.

However, echoing remarks he had made earlier in the day on the BBC Radio 4's Today programme, Mr Kawczynski told a Commons' debate:

"The liberal elite of the BBC constantly refer to immigration from Poland because they are using the Polish community as a cat's paw to try to tackle the thorny issue of mass unchecked immigration.

"They realise immigration needs to be discussed and has become uncontrolled, but they don't dare refer to controversial immigration from other (areas]."

The Shrewsbury and Atcham MP added: "I have many cases of an increase in violence towards Poles in this country and I am convinced (it] is as a result of the media coverage by the BBC."

A spokesman for the BBC said: "These are serious allegations and there was no evidence given in Mr Kawczynski's interview to back them up.

"To say the BBC doesn't run stories about other immigrant groups and simply concentrates on the Poles is not true. For instance, recently there has been coverage of other eastern European migrant workers in the fruit-picking industry and a report on the routes taken by immigrants from West Africa into Europe and the UK."

Mr Kawczynski's claims were also disputed by the Federation of Poles in Great Britain.

Viktor Moszczynski, the group's spokesman, said it had more problems with tabloid newspapers which used Polish migration to launch a sustained "anti-European" agenda.

PROFILE

AT 6ft 8in, Daniel Kawcynski is the tallest MP to sit in the House of Commons.

His relatives came to Britain in 1940 after Germany invaded Poland.

He was brought up in Surrey before studying business, French and Spanish at Stirling University, where he met his wife, Kate. The couple now have a daughter.

The 35-year-old worked in telecommunications for ten years as an international account manager, travelling extensively in Europe, the Middle East and Africa before taking the seat of Shrewsbury from Labour in 2005.

A member of the right-leaning Cornerstone Group, Mr Kawcynski is removed from the "Cameroons" running the Conservative Party.

Mr Kawcynski recently chased and caught two shoplifters who tried to take ten shirts from a menswear shop in London.





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1

Highland Silly,

05/06/2008 00:23:42
I have it on good authority that racism has gone up in the UK during the last 10 years of the Labour administration at Westminster. The buck lands with them.
2

,

05/06/2008 00:24:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
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3

Maisie from Morningside,

05/06/2008 00:56:50
Are there any figures to support this MP's assertion or is he just another rent-a-mouth?
4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/06/2008 00:58:34
"Attacks on Poles 'fuelled by the BBC's coverage of immigration"

Are we sure we are talking about Scotland here,?

I think the Scottish People have great attitudes to our now, Polish Population.

Lets have the facts!
5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/06/2008 00:59:51

Why Decry Scotland!,??
6

Watson,

Irvine 05/06/2008 01:22:59
Well the BBC or should it really be the EBC has had a racist quality for years so I'm not surprised with this story. Still, every cloud has a silver lining, their racism has certainly encouraged Scottish independence.
7

truthsleuth,

05/06/2008 01:25:11
The man is smack on the nose.
The poles are invisible until they speak.
The BBC and others hide behind the poles when the complaint of most of the indigenous UK population is on the massive number of immigrants fom asia africa
in particular illegals though the problem is deeperc than this.

Most politicians are frightened of upsetting these populations because of the way their votes (en bloc and of doubtful democratic reflection) can swing an election.

The BBC and others are frightened of the coloured vote in particular and dead scared of calling a spade a spade for fear of being called racist even though the argument is about immigration.
Its about time we stopped cowering in fear of the racist cry and stood up for our way of life at each and every election.
This would make politicians reflect the views of the majority rather than the false cries of small power religious and ethnic blocs.
8

,

05/06/2008 01:25:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
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9

Hmm ...,

05/06/2008 01:31:07
... time to recognise that the Poles working here are giving the locals a good example by their work ethic - and that is perhaps part of the problem.

Our feckless "underclass" is too idle to get a job and relies on handouts from our Labour government - no wonder the money men are "critical" of Gordon's policies!
10

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/06/2008 02:02:35
Conan re~9,

I know this, we are both intelligent People, I don't post without reasonable knowledge on a subject, although maybe, I get to the fact of the matter in away that is not always coherent for some.

Thing is on this subject, I work in the public sector, and also my DYW and I are 'People-of-the-town' Soo to speak!

Always keeping in,..'the-know' albeit its DYW who attributes to this, with her constant, we gotta do this, we gotta do that, we gotta go here, we gotta go there attitude!

Poor Charles gets 'Worn-Out'

Quite Honestly, I have never come across any Polish victimisation on my travels, in-fact it seems, we have welcomed the "Poles" into our Society as far as I can see it!

On another note though, as you all know,...
the 'Word Baby' is important to My DYW and I,

The Polish Women we see in Edinburgh, seem to be more family orientated in becoming 'Pregnant' than the Scottish Women!
Just walk around 'Tesco's' to see that!

I am not decrying this fact, but it is a touch sad the Scottish Population, don't want the same.

A 'Proof' of this, is in our 'Shopping Centers'!

Did you all know, 'Scottish People' don't get Pregnant no-more!

The,,..'Gyle Shopping Centre' in Edinburgh, has NOT one shop you can purchase, 'Maternity Wear' in! NOT even M&S!
But I am sure this will change, now we have a "Polish" Population!

Shame on the Scots!
11

,

05/06/2008 02:04:31
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12

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/06/2008 02:07:13

My post at #11 is of complete accuracy! as in the,..
'Here and Now!
13

Huistean baxter,

ontario 05/06/2008 02:22:05
During WW2 i had a lot of contact with Polish soldiers and found them very polite ETC. I don't think they received the recognition they were due as Pilots especially as fighter pilots.They were GOOD.
14

Bejjy,

05/06/2008 04:01:25
#1

I have it on good authority that racism has gone up in the UK during the last 10 years of the Labour administration at Westminster. The buck lands with them.

O yea, and what is that authority of which you speak? Enlighten us please.
15

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 05/06/2008 06:40:11
"THE BBC has been accused of fuelling attacks on Poles by exploiting them to highlight immigration rather than using other ethnic minority arrivals for fear of being branded racist."

There's a basic confusion there between a migrant group, and an ehtnic minority group. You can't reasonably describe people who have newly arrived in a country, who don't hold its citizenship, and who don't intend to stay permanently, as an "ethnic minority".

Not a good article.
16

yockel,

05/06/2008 06:46:21
#15 There's more of them so it follows there are more attacks. Don't know if the BBC has anything to do with that but they do seem to ... (guess the every day expression the Hootsmon thinks is unsuitable).... the real problem and play down the fact that the Polish are one of the groups who are leaving the UK at the highest rate. Thay are not daft you see.
17

,

05/06/2008 07:34:22
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18

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

05/06/2008 07:40:36
#20 You are perpetuating the myth that there are no racists in our midst. Unfortunately that is far from the truth:

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Thug-jailed-for-attack-on.4148922.jp

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/7358197.stm

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Rugby-player-who-assaulted-Polish.4094333.jp

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7350036.stm

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.1663160.0.0.php

That was just a quick search - I'm sure there are many more unreported incidents. Groups such as the BNP have targetted the Polish influx to fuel their racist politics.

We are from being the anti-racist paradise taht soem would have us believe.
19

donald,

glasgow 05/06/2008 08:01:00
The Herald forgot to put a kilt on this agency computer report.
20

donald,

glasgow 05/06/2008 08:02:13
Sorry. Taht should be the 'Scotdman', the other Brit paper.
21

donald,

glasgow 05/06/2008 08:02:26
Sorry. Taht should be the 'Scotdman', the other Brit paper.
22

donald,

glasgow 05/06/2008 08:02:46
That and 'Scotsman' typos.
23

,

05/06/2008 08:04:09
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24

scunnin,

Germany 05/06/2008 08:19:41
I have to say I have heard both Poles and Brits side of this story. I am an Ex-pat from Edinburgh living in Germany and I often go home and hear someone whining on about how the Poles have taken the lower end jobs and how they keep stealing jobs from people in the UK.

I have friends who are Poles, and you know what they want? To work, thats all like all of us. They often do jobs that people in the UK refuse to do. Scotland generally is very balanced and very tolerant of other cultures, languages and colours and creeds which makes me proud of Scotland.

The BBC has not revealed any real facts about the Poles or immigrants, but as an immigrant in Germany I can quite imagine how the Poles are treated. I have heard many stories of people wanting not to give the Poles benefits of unemployment money or pension money or medical help... but why if they pay there taxes shouldnt they get that benefit?

I pay my taxes in Germany, I get those benefits so why shouldnt they? You know we are a great nation, obviously the BBC has missed this part and is out to criticise. Go to London and see how intolerant the english are against others.
25

W Smith,

Middle East 05/06/2008 08:51:00
#27 Jammy Dodger and #28 Scunnin

Well said.

In WW2 one out of every six pilots in the RAF were Polish.

Many Polish soldiers were stationed in Fife and many stayed on in Scotland after the war.

These guys actually earned their British passports unlike a certain group of "asians" I could think of who are alway bleeting about their 'rights'.
26

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 09:38:00
#29:

"I am sorry but the Poles in this country are sending most of there money home, they claim Family Allowance and Family Tax Credits and they send it to there families back in Poland which means the money is not being put back into Britain."

So you personally speak to Poles and know for a fact that they do that? I very much doubt it so stop making up substantiated rumours and presenting them as facts.

"it is about having the guts to stand up to people, these people and the French too just gave up and left Britain on there own."

You clearly have no idea about the Polish contribution to WW2 - the country was overrun in a surprise attack by far superior German and Soviet armies and had no real chance to stop the attack. Poland never officially surrendered to Germany, there was no puppet government and the Poles continued to resist German occupation throughout the war. The Polish army and air force were an important part of the allied forces.

In future get your facts right before you start spouting off about things you clearly don't have any knowledge of.
27

Findlay Thompson,

05/06/2008 09:41:43
Without word of a lie these 'Politically Correct’ agitators will be the first against the wall come the glorious day.

#28

"Scotland generally is very balanced and very tolerant of other cultures, languages and colours and creeds which makes me proud of Scotland".

That is a very broad-minded although inaccurate opinion. The real world indicates tolerance to other cultures, creeds etc. is remarkably limited indeed.
28

oder,

Scotland 05/06/2008 09:46:54
22 happy english,London

almost 38% of all German Aircraft shot down during the battle of Britain was attributed to the Polish pilots
they stood with Britain in her greatest hour of need during the war there were many Poles in Scotland and well like by the locals and with a few exceptions that still is the case today! as for them sending money home to Poland the British have being doing that for hundreds of years from their colonies so they are not much different from us!tax benefit applies to all EU citizens if you lived in Europe you too will be able to claim the same benefits there!
29

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 09:57:27
#32

"Without word of a lie these 'Politically Correct’ agitators will be the first against the wall come the glorious day."

What 'glorious day' are you refering to? Do you think the BNP will somehow gain power and then execute all the 'politically correct agitators'? If so you must be extremely deluded and clearly lack even a miniscule amount of intelligence.
30

scottish person,

paisley 05/06/2008 09:59:34
I watched the programme, it was disgusting. It was run and compared by two coloured people who never mentioned the asain or black extraction who come here and pimp a couple of woman and live off the government. The Poles come here and work, they also mix with the locals unlike the muslims. Oh and they dont blow up people and property.
31

Ananurhing,

05/06/2008 10:02:02
There has been a long history of migration between Poland and Scotland. Both ways. Many Scots merchants settled in Poland in the 17th & 18thC. Some were embraced into mainstream Polish society and held positions of power. There is also recorded racism directed against Scots, who were regarded as avaricious traders.
I have many friends who are descended from Polish stock. I believe Polton in Midlothian is named after Polish immigrants.
When you wander around supermarkets, it's easy to spot Poles. They're usually tall, lean, and healthy looking.
The sooner they start to breed with the locals the better. Amongst the many other benefits they bring to this country, our gene pool needs them.
32

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 10:05:14
#35

What program are you refering to? The article talks about the BBC's coverage of immigration in particular, it does not mention any particular program.

"never mentioned the asain or black extraction who come here and pimp a couple of woman and live off the government. The Poles come here and work, they also mix with the locals unlike the muslims. Oh and they dont blow up people and property."

You are clearly extremely racist and bigoted, you cannot generalise an entire race, religion or colour.
33

D..S.,

Edinburgh 05/06/2008 10:17:07
For those that think we are totally tolerant on the Polish community, here is a chilling tale.

I was looking to take on two drivers a while back I had several applicants 7 were from poles, Luckily my office were doing their job and when checking records and driving license details it was discovered 4 of the Poles that applied had used the exact same driving license details only the picture had been changed. This was obviously reported to the authorities and has been dealt with. However speaking to other acquaintances and general discussions Iam not alone in this scenario, where Poles have been using false documents/papers and or driving licenses to obtain work. Even had jusy one of the Poles applied and we employed him based on his information etc, then our insurance would have been invalid, god forbid had he had an acident and hurt an innocent person what the consequences could have been.

As i say Iam not alone in this situation and iam sure there are many others out there that could even be employing Poles (Or other nationalities for that matter) with illegal/false documents.

The reason the Polish community Is experiencing this so much is because of the vast Polish population in and around Edinburgh (Some say upwards of 50,000)

It was not so long ago we had in the News a story regarding Romanian woman begging on our streets, Mini-buses dropping them off at various points in the city centre to sit all day begging.

I do believe this Government has a lot to answer for with regard to immagration, Im all for freedom of movement and employment within the EU, however tighter controls regarding immagration etc have to be put in place and acted upon, more extensive vetting has to be carried out at immagration and even employment level.

It is worrying to know there will be Immagrants working within our country in work places that could be potentially dangerous to themselves their co-workers and the general public, who are not qualified and have obtaine
34

D..S.,

Edinburgh 05/06/2008 10:18:00
who are not qualified and have obtained these jobs with false/illegal papers and documents.
35

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 10:26:35
#38

"I do believe this Government has a lot to answer for with regard to immagration, Im all for freedom of movement and employment within the EU, however tighter controls regarding immagration etc have to be put in place and acted upon".

You appear to be contradicting yourself, you say you are in favour of freedom of movement and employment within the EU but then you say there should be tighter controls regarding 'immagration' (sic). If you didn't realise, Poland is an EU country, this means they have freedom of movement and employment within the EU and you cannot restrict the immigration of Poles to the UK.
36

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 10:43:07
We should have an Australian style points based system for all immigrants regardless of whether they are from within or outwith the EU.

Our current "open for everyone" policy is absolutely absurd and frankly criminal.
37

Findlay Thompson,

05/06/2008 10:46:49
#37

“You are clearly extremely racist and bigoted, you cannot generalise an entire race, religion or colour.”

Can you recall WWII, I believe the US Government in their wisdom sectioned most Japanese Americans. Some of these people were 2nd, 3rd & 4th generation. Why were they sectioned? Maybe, because they were a potential threat to the society of the time, whom was at war with Japan.

I believe our politicians have in recent times mentioned the UK was “at war with terror” the terror group being primarily Islamic extremists. Are we “generalising” Muslims at present or will there be a time in the future when we section the UK Muslim population? Think before you hit the keyboard.

NB. My good wife of 13 years was born in Nth East Africa, I think her race is classified as Negro.
38

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 10:54:37
#41

"We should have an Australian style points based system for all immigrants regardless of whether they are from within or outwith the EU. Our current "open for everyone" policy is absolutely absurd and frankly criminal."

The UK is getting a points based system for non-EU immigrants. Maybe you should read up on the EU - there cannot be a points based system for EU citizens - it is against EU law. Also the UK does not have an 'open for everyone' policy, non-EU immigrants have always had to have a work permit to emigrate here.
39

Miss H,

05/06/2008 10:59:16
I am always amused by people who are anti-immigration and advocate the Australian approach to immigration.

Does poster 41 realise that since 1945, over 6 million people from 200 countries have come to Australia as economic migrants - meaning that just under one third of the population are either immigrants or descended from recent immigrants. There are nowhere near the number of economic migrants as that in Scotland. It is far from certain whether Scotland could actually attract that scale of migration even if we were to have an open door policy as he asserts.

It’s another example of someone whose opinions on immigration are based on utter ignorance.
40

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 11:05:19
#42

No I can't recall WW2 I wasn't born then, but just because the US interned 120,000 Japanese during the war doesn't mean it was right. There is a major difference between the 2 examples however. The entire population of Japan was at war with the US during WW2, only a tiny percentage of muslims in the UK are extremists.

Are you suggesting that all 1.5 million muslims in the UK should be put into some kind of internment camp?

Would you also have put every Irish catholic in the UK in internment camps during the IRA bombing campaign?
41

Upandunder,

05/06/2008 11:07:50
We should have an Oz-style immigration. Come here to work. All the Poles I've come across do exactly that.

The real problem in the UK is not immigrants coming in to do our grottier jobs - more the fact that we haven't got the guts as a nation to tell our legions of won't-works living off the Benefits system to get a job.

For starters, 16-year-olds should be banned from leaving school unless they have a job lined up. And all under-30s who don't find a job within three months should be put on compulsory military service or have thir benefits stopped. That'd soon get them out of the pubs and car boot pitches!
42

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 11:14:27
#43 Do you understand the word "should" as in "We should have an Australian style points based system for all immigrants regardless of whether they are from within or outwith the EU"?

If it isn't possible under EU law then our best plan is to leave the EU. All immigration, repeat all immigration from anywhere to this country should have a firm control system. ie. points based or you don't get in.
43

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 11:21:27
#47

"Do you understand the word "should" as in "We should have an Australian style points based system for all immigrants regardless of whether they are from within or outwith the EU"?"

Of course I understand the word 'should' but there is no point saying we should have something if there is no chance of it happening. I could say that everyone in the UK should be given £1m by the government but I won't because its a ludicrous idea that will never happen.

"If it isn't possible under EU law then our best plan is to leave the EU."

The UK isn't going to leave the EU, an independent Scottish isn't going to leave the EU, so why bother talking about a points-based system for EU citizens IT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN.
44

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 11:25:24
#48 Don't be so defeatist. Anything can happen as people slowly wake up to what has been robbed from them. Not just Britain but also Spain and France have seen huge immigration problems and riots. While the liberal left persist in forcibly holding down the lid on the pressure cooker of immigration all that is really happening is they are putting off the day to an ever bigger bang. Some of us here would like to see a more constructive approach and a defusing of the situation before it is too late.
45

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 11:36:13
#49

Neither UKIP or the BNP are ever going to win an election so Britain isn't going to leave the EU.

I would be interested though to get your views on what form your points-based system would take. Would you suggest that only highly skilled or skilled migrants with a job offer should be allowed into the UK? In that case who would fill the fruit picking, cleaning and retail jobs that are currently being taken by Eastern Europeans?
46

Calum Crubag,

05/06/2008 11:40:47
#49 - a lot of the Spanish don't like the immigrant Brits in Spain. Who, unlike the Poles, don't work hard or bring many benefits. Imagine if Brits abroad suffered these attacks.

As a Scot, i've always been welcomed abroad.
47

Defiant,

Salfors/England 05/06/2008 11:41:57
Of course if the Poles went around terrorising people like one particular middle eastern religion the BBC would be much more kinda to them
48

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 11:43:20
Calum Crubag, the Brits in Spain take money which is a damn site more than the majority of the immigrants who come here but don't let facts get in the way
49

Allan(handofgod137),

05/06/2008 11:45:29
#45 Yes and yes.
50

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 11:46:00
"an independent Scottish isn't going to leave the EU, so why bother talking about a points-based system for EU citizens IT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN."

An an independent Scottish would have to apply to get in the EU but I don't think it would be a problem considering the EU wants Britain broken up so its easier for them to manage
51

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 11:48:20
#50 Of course the points system would only allow qualified people in as per our needs within this country.

Picking fruit can be done by our own un-skilled unemployed people (or their benefits should be removed). I would include single mums with children; instead of just getting huge benefits to sit at home (in their free council houses) smoking and drinking, they should be put to work picking fruit and state creches should be supplied to look after all their kids.

If we don't have enough unskilled labour to pick fruit (and all the other things that liberal bigots think only immigrants can do) then we can put our petty criminals to work under Community Service. Instead of going to jail they can pick the fruit for the rest of us for nothing. It's not rocket science.
52

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 11:54:40
#54

How about putting every football fan in an internment camp every time there is a football riot? Or maybe every car driver to stop driving deaths? You are embarassing.
53

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 11:58:31
#53

"the Brits in Spain take money which is a damn site more than the majority of the immigrants who come here but don't let facts get in the way."

So where exactly are your facts that 'Brits in Spain take money' or the majority of immigrants who come here don't? If you have facts to support these views please supply them, otherwise stop criticising other people for lack of facts.
54

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 12:02:06
#56

Do you think every EU country should also adopt a similar points-based system? In which case no British people would be able to retire to Spain.

Or maybe you think the British should have a right to go where they please but people shouldn't be able to emigrate to Britain?

Maybe all the retired British people that would normally emigrate to Spain could be employed picking fruit?
55

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 05/06/2008 12:05:07
I have personally spoke to hundreds of Poles over the last 4 years. They are very like the Scots.

They have a large neighbour who historically invaded them and plundered their lands. They like a good drink. They work hard. They have been economically disadvantaged for a long time so they know about struggle. They are quiet religious. Obsessed about football.

I have found most to well qualified and here on a short term plan to gain experience of English language and save money to continue their studies.

I am sure there are many people who feel the polish show them up with their work ethic and attitude.

I have also met many Polish people who were tubes but none more than I would expect to find amoungst the Scottish population. Many of Polands spongers are actually still in poland.

Yes they claim for any benefits they can because everyone loves free money. It is our fault for having such a stupid policy that allows the UK tax payer to pay for Children outside the UK
56

Jock MacTamson 2,

highlands 05/06/2008 12:06:21
With reference to the BBC.

They and their Political Correct mafia make me sick. I imagine they do consider white christian europeans fair game for critism. But do not attempt to discuss Africa or the Middle East with any sort of factual basis.

I wish the would get back to making decent TV programs not promoting their New Labour agenda.
57

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 12:07:39
Actually not all British retired people who go to Spain find it a bed of roses. They can find they are completely un-entitled to free healthcare despite living there for years. Worse still for them, they then find that if they come back to the UK they have lost their rights to it here as well. I know: it's just happened to some friends of mine.

I note that you didn't offer any arguments against my proposal to employ our unskilled unemployed labour or petty criminals.
58

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 12:08:41
Woops, #62 was in reply to #59
59

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 12:13:54
#62

"Actually not all British retired people who go to Spain find it a bed of roses."

I never suggested British people who retire to Spain find it a 'bed of roses', I asked whether you thought Spain and other EU countries should also implement a points-based system, or whether you think the British should be free to go where they please but other nationalities shouldn't? (neither question which you answered).

Regarding using the unemployed and petty criminals to pick fruit etc I didn't offer any arguments to that because I think that would be a good idea.



60

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 12:19:25
To those of you who complain that the Poles and other EU immigrants come to this country and then just claim benefits and don't work etc - perhaps you should get your facts right about EU freedom of movement law before you speak.

Any EU citizens coming to the UK will only have right of residence if:

1. They are working in the United Kingdom

2. Or they are able to support themselves and their families in the United Kingdom without the help of public funds.

Personally I would much rather have Poles in this country who actually work and contribute taxes than those British people who are unemployed and live off benefits and who have no intention of getting a job.
61

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 12:24:39
#64 to continue the spirit of detente that seems to have broken out (!) I will try to answer your questions:

Yes, all EU countries should institute a points based system for both EU and non EU citizens.

British people and all other people of the world should be free to go where they please on strictly enforced tourist visas. Anyone who wants to stay anywhere but their place of birth should face a points based system within the country they wish to live in.

Cop outs like marriage and family reasons should not make any difference. You either have the points or you don't get in.
62

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 12:28:07
Tellen1 #53, Perhaps you should go their yourself and see like I do every year. The problem with you liberal/lefties is that your all talk and no action and this comments page proves it in regards to you!

The truth hurts you which is why you just try and ignore it
63

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 12:30:14
"Tellen1,05/06/2008 12:19:25

Any EU citizens coming to the UK will only have right of residence"

Who gave them the right Mr Liberal/left ?. I remember the UK getting a say on a Common Market but not the EU we have today so where was the governments manifesto to give our borders and laws away (plus £57 BILLION ayear)
64

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 12:40:15
#66

So your points system would allow British people to go on holiday to Spain but not to retire there?

#67

You say I'm all talk and no action but when I ask you for facts to back up your own argument you base it on your own personal views from going on holiday to Spain?...laughable.

Perhaps you don't understand. The 'truth' is not whatever you say or believe, you need to provide solid evidence to back up what you say, you can't just label something the 'truth' because that is what you believe.
65

Winters,

Glasgow 05/06/2008 12:40:55
Well said 30/31. It was the Polish division that took Monte Casino in Italy and the Polish Squadron distinguished itself in the Battle of Britain. Why do we so often get people who didn't live through WW2 commenting on it erroneously. They should realise that there are many people alive now who lived through it.
66

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 12:43:42
#69 If some British retired people have enough money and assets to prove to a Spanish government that they can support themselves in everyway until death then I am sure that can be written into a points system without much problem. Otherwise they must meet the points system.
67

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 12:45:11
#68

I'm not sure what your point is? Obviously the UK government joined the EU and agreed to EU freedom of movement laws.

The vast majority of the UK are clearly happy with being in the EU and with having freedom of movement, otherwise UKIP or the BNP (which one do you support by the way?) would have won an election or would have even a slight chance of winning a seat (neither of which they have done or have any chance of doing).
68

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 12:45:30
Tellen1, I never expected a liberal/lefty to admit the truth and bring a points system into something I hadn't even mentioned. You guys need help and the sooner your £3,5 BILLION state broadcaster is shut down the better. I'm sure you'll get a few hundred subscribing to a liberal and proud channel lol

One of these days the British public are going to get a say in Europe and then your going to get shot down the swanny
69

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 12:48:24
NO Tellen1 the British government signed up to a Common Market after giving the public a say but not the EU we have today. Please start giving facts intead of your liberal bias.

Say if you love the EU so much why don't you go and live in Germany or France ?
70

Findlay Thompson,

05/06/2008 12:49:48
#45

Poster you have such a blinkered viewpoint of the real world. A collective society does not single out Islamic Terrorists who reside in their country; they tend to view them as part of the whole. Since time was first recorded, small factions of larger groups who committed barbaric acts tended generally to ‘tar’ the larger group with the result of their doings. Nothing has changed!

Please attempt to get a grip on reality poster!!
71

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 12:51:20
#71

So would you also allow retired people from other countries to live in Britain, as long as they can prove they have assets to support themselves?

Why not also allow working people of all skill levels from the EU to live in Britain as long as they get a job (thereby contributing taxes), or have assets to support themselves and don't need to live off the state? (oh wait...that already happens).

What is your opposition to EU workers coming to the UK? They don't claim benefits or live off the state, they don't take jobs from British people, they contribute to the econony.
72

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 12:54:10
#71 if they got a big fat zero from the UK government I doubt any retired people would want to come to the UK.

Ps EU workers do claim benefits so you have been proven to be a liar here a few times now. You must be proud of being a liberl/lefty
73

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 12:56:29
#71 Government figures suggested Poles contributed £5 to the economy yet didn't mention the £5 billion that was sent back to Poland which the government has to buy back (currency)
74

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 13:00:15
#74

Are you one of those posters who goes on these things for a joke, because you are obviously not being serious?

If you read my post you will quite clearly see that I never said the UK government gave the population a say in the EU we have today, I merely stated that it was the UK government who joined the EU and that the UK population are generally in favour of this otherwise they would have voted UKIP or BNP.

As for 'please start giving facts instead of your liberal bias' you are surely being ironic? I have been asking you to provide facts for your nonsensical arguments over my last few posts, none of which you have provided, why do I need to give facts if you don't? Surely double standards at play.

And finally 'if you love the EU so much why don't you go and live in Germany or France' - why would I need to go to live in Germany or France if I love the EU? The UK is part of the EU....
75

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 13:01:26
#76 To make this easy to visualise let us hypothetically break it down to a single job. Just one job is available in the UK.

Now do we, a) make it solely available to an unemployed UK citizen or

b) throw it open to any old Tom, Dick or Harry from abroad who wants to take it (as so many of them admit) just to send the money they make overseas.

Discuss.
76

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 13:03:29
#75

What does your response have to do with my original questions?

I asked whether you think 1.5m British muslims should be put in internment camps and whether you think all Irish catholics in the UK should have been put in internment camps during the IRA bombing campain. Why don't you answer that?
77

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 13:07:06
#77

"if they got a big fat zero from the UK government I doubt any retired people would want to come to the UK."

There you go again, arguing something without any facts to back it up...such double standards.

"EU workers do claim benefits so you have been proven to be a liar here a few times now"

Perhaps you should get an idea of the EU freedom of movement laws before you start accusing people of being liars. If you go to the UK Border Agencies website you will find that EU workers can only claim residency if they either work or have assets to support themselves, they cannot claim public funds...I await an apology for you calling me a liar.
78

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 13:11:42
#80

In an ideal world the unemployed British person would be given the job, unfortunately the majority of them would prefer to live off benefits than do a menial job that the Poles are willing to do.

Regarding your point about them taking jobs just to send the money they make overseas, they pay tax, surely they are free to do what they want with the rest of their money? Or would you prefer a system where people can only spend money on what they are told, and cannot spend it on anything outside the UK (so no foreign hols, buying things from foreign companies etc).

Finally you are yet to say whether retired people from outside the UK would be able to live here under your points system as long as they have assets to support themselves?
79

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 05/06/2008 13:12:30
So MANY comments. This is a VERY vexed subject in Scotland and the rest of the UK.

The Poles have brought to Scotland and elsewhere in the UK skilled and reasonably-priced labour and do the jobs that other and lazy Scots consider beneath their"dignity".

Perhaps if these critics of the Poles got off their fat ar*es and actually worked for a living rather than being drugged and drunk all day and waking up at noon they would have a sense of self-worth and bring the cost of maintaining them and their children on social assistance.

Every Pole I have met has been gracious, extremely hardworking and willing to get ahead, and many have been extremely and highly educated and the others have an innate intelligence that is sometimes lacking in some Scots.

Scotland should bless the day the Poles decided to emigrate to your country because they have been a positive benefit to all.
80

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 13:15:57
#82 If correct then your assertion that EU workers can only claim residency if they "either work or have assets to support themselves, they cannot claim public funds" would sadly seem to put them at a disadvantage to any Tom, Dick or Harry from outside the EU who can just pitch up, claim political asylum and then get the "full English/Scottish Breakfast" so-to-speak. Free council house, plenty of benefits etc etc.

Perhaps the EU immigrants here should revolt at their second rate treatment.
81

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 13:16:09
#79 if the uk public are in favour of being part of the EU then the public opinion polls which have been extremely accurate in the past are a complete farce. Now you know the public aren’t for the EU but it wouldn’t be in your liberal/left favour to be honest here would it!

Again the public never gave the government the nod to drag us into the EU so we aren’t a legitimate part of the EU although yes we are part of Europe (the two being very different)
82

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 13:18:52
Tellen1 has no intention in talking reasonably here because he knows what people really think about his opinions (yes that’s all they really are) so he just does the job of his pay masters at Common Purpose

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3664960863576873594&q=common+purpose&ei=RtpHSO36E4aIjQLikty-DA&hl=eN

Yes past dictators have nothing on these people
83

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 13:20:22
#83 In answer to your last paragraph. Yes.
84

Findlay Thompson,

05/06/2008 13:22:19
#81

Attempt to look a bit further than the end of your nose. Can't you see my point?
85

Findlay Thompson,

05/06/2008 13:24:28
#84

Timothy, when was your last visit to Canada?
86

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 13:35:27
#89

Attempt to answer my question.
87

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 13:36:29
#87

I'm going to ignore you from now on, you clearly have no interest in providing me with any facts to back up your arguments or in answering any of my questions.
88

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 13:40:23
#88

So if you think that retired people from outside the UK can come to live here if they have assets to support themselves why can't non-retired foreigners come to live here too, as long as they either have assets to support themselves or are able to get a job?
89

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 13:44:21
#86

If the public are so in favour of getting Britain out of the EU perhaps you could explain to me why UKIP, a party with the sole intention of removing the UK from the EU, has failed to win an election and is not going to win an election? (unless by some miracle it is able to increase its 2% share of the vote in 2005 to around 35% in 2010.
90

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 13:45:11
#93 If they can meet a properly implemented points system I have no problem with them coming here whether white, brown, black, Chinese, Japanese etc etc. I thought I made that clear. But, this is the big BUT, they must meet the points program.

We have enough unskilled unemployed people plus petty crims to more than deal with fruit picking and other unskilled labour already.
91

Findlay Thompson,

05/06/2008 13:45:55
#92

Refer to point 42, take your time now...absorb the words slowly, once they connect start to process.

Its easy just take a little more time to consider what would be valuable to add to the post, then type & send.
92

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 13:49:29
I would add one thing to my last posting #95. It is not fair for a rich western nation to "steal" trained professionals from poorer countries like thos in Africa and Asia so an additional hurdle should be placed in the way of points-based-immigrants from those countries: they should be made to prove that their skills are not needed (ie. a job offer) in their own country.
93

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 13:53:09
#96

The point you refer to:

"Are we “generalising” Muslims at present or will there be a time in the future when we section the UK Muslim population?"

I am asking whether you think there will be a time in the future when that the 1.5m UK muslim population is 'sectioned', and whether you would agree with this? The point you made earlier is ambiguous it does not answer my question. I also asked whether you also think the Irish catholic population should have been 'sectioned' during the IRA bombings?

Is it so hard to give a straight answer to my questions?
94

An Beal Bacht,

05/06/2008 14:01:14
600,000 immigrants per year is what the UK Gov. admits to. What are the benefits from this level of immigration? More roads, more cars, more pollution, more stress on our social services - schools, and hospitals, housing, lower wages, and more crime. But wait - that's not all. We also get biometric ID Cards, DNA data banks, 42 day detention, and the surveillance society to help fight the war on terror. As a bonus you get to lose you traditional culture as it may be offensive to a new comer.

600,00 PER YEAR!
6,000,000 in ten years.
15,000,000 in 25 years.
30,000,000 in fifty years.

When does it stop?

At this rate the UK will have 120,000,000 people living on this little island in 100 years.
95

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 05/06/2008 14:03:35
94 Findlay Thompson

I don't know the implications of your posting, but I live in Canada most of the time except for forays to my family in London, England and Paris, France and Brittany and Normandy.
96

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 14:05:20
#98 You weren't asking me this question but I will answer with my opinion anyway, since that is presumably what we are all here for.

Muslims per se should not be "sectioned off" but their religion should be open to as much ridicule as any other with no exceptions.

Anybody in the Muslim community who even hints at violence against the rest of us should be arrested immediately and face the severest punishment (just the same as the rest of us).

The Muslim burkha and restrictions on female clothing should be banned by law - this is a secular society, so if their "good book" doesn't like it they can go and live somewhere else like Saudia Arabia.

I hope that is all clear.

In summary: we are a secular society so any religion that feels uncomfortable living here by our secular rules is free to leave. And if I want to make a cartoon of Christ on the cross, Mohammed doing whatever Mohammed does, the Mormon fellow collecting golden plates that landed in his back garden or L.Ron Hubbard of the Scientologists strapping a Maplin £3.99 multimeter to his forehead to contact the Thetans then I will. And I will do it freely thank you very much.
97

Scotsman in Dublin,

05/06/2008 14:16:15
#29, happy english,
It’s unfortunate that people like yourself see fit to evaluate what people from various nations did “during the war”. I noticed this phenomenon when I was in the US as well except it was directed at the French. People here feel rightly proud of the contribution that themselves, relatives etc made “during the war” but that shouldn’t mean insulting other countries who in fairness probably had to go through a lot worse than Britain and the US did given that they were occupied. Britain had a much bigger arsenal at its disposal than the “wooden tanks” you mentioned, and certainly a lot more weaponry than the horses of the Polish Calvary – perhaps if Poland and France were Islands in the Atlantic Ocean they might also have slowed the advance of German tanks?
98

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 14:16:41
#101

Some good points, I agree that all religions should be open to criticism and that Britain should be a secular society, freedom of speech is a very important right.

However you cannot advocate freedom of speech on one hand and at the same time also say 'the muslim burkha should be banned by law'. Whilst personally I think the burkha is a restriction on women's rights it should not be banned by law. In circumstances such as schools, jobs etc where it is necessary to see someone's face then it can be banned but you cannot restrict people from wearing it in at other times if they so wish, otherwise you could also argue that all symbols and items of clothing related to religion should be banned.
99

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 14:23:03
#102 Excuse me but unless my history teacher seriously misled me, Ireland held a policy of neutrality in WWII. What's there to be "rightly proud of"?
100

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 14:30:48
#103 I am glad we seem to agree on more than we disagree; this is the essence of good debate.

As regards the burkha I see your point that in non essential "face seeing situations" (as you said, schools, juries etc etc) the burkha should be allowed. But I have to disagree with you. Here’s why.

Women from these ethnic backgrounds have very few rights in their communities. If they break their social code they can be ostracised from their family or worse. I do know this as a fact - I have lived long enough near London's Edgware Road and know and met enough Muslim men and women to know the system

The only way to liberate the poor women who want to shed their burkhas and lead a normal western life is to legislate to free them from the burdens their male based religion places upon them. Then they can simply walk free as they should, like the rest of us.
101

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 14:32:52
#105 Sorry it should read "As regards the burkha I see your point that in non essential "face seeing situations" (as you said, schools, juries etc etc) the burkha should NOT be allowed. But I have to disagree with you. Here’s why."
102

Venachar,

05/06/2008 14:44:56
#105 Mikko

What you say is fine if you only accept a traditional or fundamentalist point of view.
There are lots of areas of the world where the interpretation of islam has been somewhat more free and womens dress code does not include a burkha or any other full body covering.
This is a secular country and the wearing of full length coverings should be outlawed in this country.
Oh and I also think ALL faith schools should be abolished just to be fair on everyone. On the subject of faith schools Wee Eck is wrong and this is a vote loser for the SNP.

103

Findlay Thompson,

05/06/2008 15:09:47
#98

#98

Very good point poster, on sectioning 1.5 million Islamic (nearer 2) followers from a population of around 60 million Approx 2.5%. Tactically it would be nigh on impossible to implement, how in your opinion would the UK Government resolve this problem? The Irish Catholics by default are the majority shareholders in Ireland. The protestants are I reckon are in the minority. I believe the Eire Government never sanctioned the IRA bombings at any time.

Which I believe gets us to the point how do we corral specific groups of people under their own banner who have a great reluctance to integrate with the countries ('of their migration to') Education systems, social practices, laws etc. Your response to the aforementioned would be very interesting! Remembering that if the small percentage of the population who cannot integrate and will not integrate have the freedom to return to the country of their origin.
104

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 15:26:21
#108

"The Irish Catholics by default are the majority shareholders in Ireland. The protestants are I reckon are in the minority. I believe the Eire Government never sanctioned the IRA bombings at any time."

What are you talking about? What has Ireland and the Eire Government and their sanctioning of IRA bombings got to do with anything?

My point was that if you are advocating that muslims in the UK should be 'sectioned' in order to try and stop a miniscule minority of them carrying out suicide bombings then surely you would also believe that all Irish catholics in the UK (not in Eire) should also have been sectioned during the IRA bombing campaign?
105

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 15:35:40
And regarding how to resolve the problem of muslim extremists in the UK, this can be done through ensuring that the police and MI5 etc are able to identify and catch those who are responsible for it, and by a system of educating those who are likely to be drawn into it.

You cannot 'section' 1.5m people based on their religion because perhaps a few hundred of them have extremist views, just as you could not 'section' however many Irish catholics lived in the UK during the IRA bombings because perhaps a few of them were involved with the IRA.

Your views are disturbingly close to those of the nazis, next you will be saying all muslims should be exterminated.
106

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 15:37:31
#107 I think I wasn't very clear. I meant to say that the burkha, whether partial coverage or full coverage of a female body should be banned by law.

Yes, I agree with you too that all faith schools should be banned.
107

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 15:40:02
#110 I expected a better argument from a person who at least seemed to be a semi-sensible bleeding heart liberal. Don't let your side down now. The "extermination", "nazi" stuff is always a last resort argument and usually means your side has lost the argument and has to behave in an uncivilised way.
108

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 15:44:47
#112

So you don't think 'sectioning' 1.5m people into internment camps based on their religion is extremist and similar to the what the nazis did to the Jews?
109

Findlay Thompson,

05/06/2008 16:05:32
109+110 My point was that if you are advocating that muslims in the UK should be 'sectioned' in order to try and stop a miniscule minority of them carrying out suicide bombings then surely you would also believe that all Irish catholics in the UK (not in Eire) should also have been sectioned during the IRA bombing campaign?

You are still having trouble absorbing data… I did not advocate sectioning followers of Islam I suggested to the reader, what other routs are available to resolve the problem!!!! Sectioning Irish Catholics in UK is completely unfeasible.

“And regarding how to resolve the problem of muslim extremists in the UK, this can be done through ensuring that the police and MI5 etc are able to identify and catch those who are responsible for it, and by a system of educating those who are likely to be drawn into it.”

Once again, your limited data absorption rears it ugly head. Your previous comment is completely unfeasible. For the tiny number of terrorist that are caught, how many more are willing & available to jump in their shoes! What you tried to create in your last comment is a utopia that frankly does not exist at the present time and will not appear in either your or my lifetime.

And finally your last comment.

Your views are disturbingly close to those of the nazis, next you will be saying all muslims should be exterminated.

Words fail me, well not quite…I believe you GP should give you a referral for treatment at the Royal Edinburgh Hospital (Andrew Duncan Clinic).
110

Defiant,

Salford/Egnland 05/06/2008 16:13:03
#92 Like a true Liberal/lefty you are attacking Jews and sticking up for Muslims. Your biggest mistake though is to bring the Nazis into this because the Muslims were very friendly with them.

http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/musnazi.html

Again ellen1 I fight your lies with the TRUTH and that hurts
111

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 16:14:02
#113 I think you will find that in #101 I already said "Muslims per se should not be "sectioned off" but their religion should be open to as much ridicule as any other with no exceptions".

112

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 16:19:07
I have to add that I consider my father to be a true bleeding heart liberal if ever I met one. He cautioned me not to say anything against nutters like Muslim fundamentalists but I am not prepared to live in a society where I cannot speak my mind just because some Mohammed or whatever says I can't.
113

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 16:21:59
#114

Okay so if you don't advocate sectioning off the entire muslim population what do you suggest doing?

#115

Please go away you are truly embarassing yourself now. How exactly am I 'attacking Jews'? Please show me exactly where I have supposedly attacked Jews?

Secondly I am not 'sticking up for muslims' - I am sticking up for freedom - I am asking why should an entire religion be 'sectioned' off simply because a few of them are extremists - this refers to any religion.
114

Findlay Thompson,

05/06/2008 16:23:11
#116

Mikko..

I think #113 is having a mid-life crisis. try & be gentle!
115

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 16:26:39
#116

You appeared to be supporting Findlay Thompson's somewhat incoherant views that muslims should be sectioned in internment camps by criticising me for suggesting that these views were disturbingly similar to nazi views.
116

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 16:29:21
#118 please don't ask me to go away in fact I think it should be the otherway around considering what people think about you here
117

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 16:30:56
#118 A good start would be for our government to re-publish the Danish cartoons depicting Mohammed in a full page in every UK newspaper in the name of British freedom of expression. The question then for our indigenous Muslim community would be: do you support freedom of speech or do you think you are a "special case"?

By all means publish all the other freak show images like Christ on the cross, the Mormon collecting his golden plates in his back yard and Scientology's L. Ron Hubbard strapping a multimeter to his head to talk to "the Thetans". The more nuts you put in the mix the nuttier it looks.
118

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 16:31:47
#117

I do however agree with you on the issue of freedom of speech, people in this society should be free to express their views on any form of religion and should not be stopped from doing so, unless their views advocate breaking the law in any way (e.g. violence, killing, racism etc).
119

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 16:37:23
#124 Hell, we agree again. This thread is lost if we go on like this!
120

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 16:38:02
#122

The reason I asked you to go away is because you are not contributing anything to these posts. I am trying to put across my point of view backed up by facts.

You on the other hand are quite happy to criticise my views without introducing any opposing points, to accuse me of things I haven't done (attacking Jews) without any evidence, to put across your arguments without any supporting facts and to criticise others when they do likewise.
121

Defiant,

Salford/England 05/06/2008 16:38:24
Tellen1 what do you think of the two BNP members who got arrested for stating things about Islam that have come true over and over again. Then could you tell me what you think of the Muslims who were protesting on our streets calling for our deaths while the police watched (this was around the same time)

http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/4578/zzzzzz6dr.jpg

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/images/holo_2.jpg

I'd love to hear your liberal/left view
122

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 16:42:57
#127

I'm sure you would love to hear my views and I will be happy to give them, as soon as you have answered even one of the questions or points I have put to you in my previous posts. Tell me where I have 'attacked Jews' for instance, and if you can't do so, apologise for accusing me of something, then I will happily answer your points.
123

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

05/06/2008 17:17:05
#128 I would just ignore him tellen - he has his own "agenda" and we know exactly what it is.
124

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 17:20:05
#129 I love seeing the poor old liberal bleeding heart brigade trying deperately to shore each other up against simple common sense.
125

Andrew Allan,

05/06/2008 17:26:09
#127.,Defy ant Salford/England 05/06/2008 16:38:24
‘Tellen1 what do you think of the two BNP members who got arrested for stating things about Islam that have come true over and over again.’

Well considering these people, if you can call them people, are members of the bnp, then I would have to call them stupid, and what’s more I could of predicted that before you told us what they had done.

‘Then could you tell me what you think of the Muslims who were protesting on our streets calling for our deaths while the police watched (this was around the same time)’

To any right minded person, and I don’t mean the idiotic bnp right winger brigade when I state ‘right’, the streets these muslims were ranting on are also their streets.




126

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 17:35:54
#131 Are you mad or just trolling?
127

Andrew Allan,

05/06/2008 17:35:57
#130.,Mikko. Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 17:20:05
‘I love seeing the poor old liberal bleeding heart brigade trying deperately to shore each other up against simple common sense.’

Tell me mikko which simple common sense are you trying to tell us about, and this so called liberal bleeding heart brigade what are they trying to shore up?

128

Andrew Allan,

05/06/2008 17:38:03
#132.,Mikko. Drumnadrochit 05/06/2008 17:35:54
‘Are you mad or just trolling?’

I am furious

129

,

05/06/2008 18:01:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
130

,

05/06/2008 18:07:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
131

,

05/06/2008 18:08:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
132

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 18:25:06
#140

The IRA aren't being compared to the muslims as such.

The reason the IRA/Irish catholics were mentioned was because someone on this message board earlier was suggesting that all British muslims should be sectioned in internment camps in order to prevent the minority of them carrying out suicide bombs.

It was suggested that doing this would be as stupid as sectioning all Irish catholics in the UK during the IRA bombing campaign in order to stop the minority of them carrying out bombings.

The views and ideals of muslim extremists and the IRA were not being compared.
133

,

05/06/2008 18:25:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
134

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 18:32:32
#142

Read the previous posts - no one was suggesting sectioning Irish catholics, they were being used as an example of how stupid it would be to section an entire group of people based on the actions of a minority. Irish people as a whole could equally have been used to illustrate the point.
135

Tellen1,

05/06/2008 18:35:19
#143

Did you actually read my post (#141)? If so you would realise why I brought it up.

YES the IRA campaign was completely different, I never tried to compare it muslim extremism, I merely used it as an example of how stupid it is to section an entire group of people based on the actions of a minority of that group.
136

Tyson J.,

05/06/2008 18:49:07
Don't worry about the Poles they are not a problem. You should be more worried about your current downward move from a democracy to a dhimmocracy.
137

john z,

edinburgh 05/06/2008 19:04:08
Just as I would not move to Warsaw, then start criticising everything the polish people did, so also, poles must not come here criticising the Scottish people.

Europeans who come to Scotland should note however, that nothing, and I really do mean nothing, will alienate you more than coming to Scotland, not learning the language and trying to force your countries' values and beliefs on the people of Scotland.

If you come to Scotland permanently, try to be a scot, not a pole in Scotland. Most importantly learn the language - and use it as often as possible, as otherwise you alienate otherwise friendly Scots (and most are).

As regards the BBC part of the article, I really don't agree that the BBC cause racism.
138

Brittanicus,

Indianapolis, Indiana. USA 05/06/2008 20:13:07
The United States is having the same issue, but a million more times volatile? Next to the war in Iraq, illegal immigration has become a political bombshell. The majority of Americans know the next President is going to sign into law a massive AMNESTY. Our only chance before this happens is our reluctant Democrats, sponsoring the pending 'SAVE ACT'(H.R.4088). If my English friends and my place of birth, wishes to read the unsuppressed news, go to NUMBERSUSA for details.
139

Alba Abú,

Dunedin 05/06/2008 20:18:14
142# Good post.
140

Nikostratos,

05/06/2008 20:44:40
#149

Most poles are catholics a lot of scots are catholic who share the same "values and beliefs".

What to do, what to do?
141

Calvinist,

05/06/2008 21:51:01
My stepfather who is now 89 arrived in this country in 1940. He fought with distinction during WWII and was involved in the invasion of France in 1944. At the end of the war, like so many of his fellow countrymen, he was unable to return to his homeland for fear of being labelled a 'western bourgeois'. He did a variety of mainly dirty jobs, miner, hospital barber, railwayman. Most Scots treated him with courtesy but there was always a minority that were abusive towards him. One of his neighbours on the estate he lived on engaged in a vindictive campaign against him-using his letterbox as a receptacle for a variety of unpleasant objects. He was frequently referred to as a Polish B******, so there was no doubt about the reason for this. We Scots have a tendency to think that we are above this, but we are not. Like any other nation, we have our fair share of bigots and racists.
142

Kenny A,

05/06/2008 22:23:10
Heres a bit of news, I have worked with Poles and other Eastern Europeans over the years and they graft, first in, last out, little complaining and do the job they are paid to do and do it well usualy. They are also not all Vodka fueled alcoholics looking for a fight, that sounds more like us Scots to be honest.

I also do not know where this nonsense about more attacks on Poles came from, they tend to keep themselves to themselves as the do not often speak good English but they try, much better than my pathetic attempts at Polish and Russian. They also save their money for the future.

In general good lads, sets an example to the lazy thats for sure.

143

seaweasel,

Co Armagh 05/06/2008 22:38:14
#45

"Are you suggesting that all 1.5 million muslims in the UK should be put into some kind of internment camp?

Would you also have put every Irish catholic in the UK in internment camps during the IRA bombing campaign?"

I agree with the sentiment of your reply to that rather ignorant post you referred to, but you might want to read up on your recent history. Many people like yourself have quite rightly taken objection to Westminster's drive to increase detention times and ask if we're on a slippery slope to internment for suspected terrorists, however many people seem to have a short memory. It's already been done!

You seem to forget that hundreds of Irish Catholics were rounded up and interned in the 1970s. Westminster and Stormont's anti-terrorism tactics were far more heavy handed back then but commentators and the public at large (in Britain anyway) tend to forget this. Would you support the UK government if it rounded up Muslim men arbitrarily and put them in internment camps? OK, some people posting on here would, but the majority of sane people wouldn't. I'm not convinced however that politicians will learn from history.
144

truthsleuth,

06/06/2008 01:10:43
#10 Hmm ...,

I trust you are judging those you know and I trust they will also be judging you.
145

democracy,

Scottish Borders 06/06/2008 12:51:00
We just use other articles to make a point of not being able to remark on other articles.
I mean, it's blatantly obvious when HAMISH MACDONELL
writes his biased Unionist remarks on the SNP Government and allows no response, in the so called SCOTSMAN (ha,ha,ha.)All this amounts to is, ONE persons opinion among MILLIONS!!

 

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