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50,000 defence jobs 'at risk'

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Published Date: 24 June 2008
By ROSS LYDALL
UP TO 50,000 jobs could be at risk if an independent Scotland lost new orders from the Ministry of Defence, MPs warned yesterday.
A report by the Labour-dominated Scottish affairs committee said that aeronautics firms and shipbuilders were unlikely to relocate in the short to medium term and the industry was "more stable" than it had been for some time.

But it added: "In the long term it is unclear what naval requirement an independent Scotland would have and whether this would make up for the loss of UK MoD orders."

The MoD recently gave the go-ahead for a £3.8 billion contract for two aircraft carriers, HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales. They will be built partly in Scotland.

SNP MP Angus MacNeil accused Labour MPs of "baseless scaremongering" and said Scottish firms would be able to secure work on the basis of their "formidable" skills.

But David Mundell, the Tory shadow Scottish secretary, said many contracts would be lost as "defence contracts do not tend to cross national borders".





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 23 June 2008 9:59 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Traquir , Alba,

24/06/2008 00:07:10
So I think we are pretty immune to the Unionist scaremongering so let's just ignore their posturing and look at the real story here.

As a sustainable business model having 90% of your orders within any one client and/or one product is quite simply very bad business practice. When that one client is the MOD and the one product is war machines the business sanity of the situation makes even less sense.

For Scotland the key is to embrace the two upcoming
aircraft carrier contracts which we have been promised
and use the several years of building them in growing
an expert workforce and planning for diversification going forward. The skills gained will be formidable especially given the renowned aptitude of Scots to excel in the field of engineering. Just to be clear to our Unionist buddies the aircraft carrier contracts is not just some act of charity
to Scotland it is something that what remains of our
ship building industry has earned and quite frankly
Scotland has contributed more than enough to
the MOD coffers for this just to be share of it coming back.

In terms of diversification there are many areas of
the ship building industry that should be explored and
any number of which Scotland can assuredly with
proper investment compete and excel in e.g.

. Fishing Vessels
. Roll On Roll Off Ferries
. Supply Tankers
. Cruise Ships
. Retro-fitting & Repair
. High end catamarans/yachts

Of course we can also compete competitively for
military contracts from multiple nations including
the rump of the UK who will be bound under
European law to fairly consider Scottish tenders
on their merits which is how it should be rather
than some cheap political game.

With over 50 internationally competitive, technically advanced small and medium-sized shipyards, a costal country like Norway also of 5 million shows how successful proper diversification can be.

see - tinyurl.com/63nsk8

Saor Alba
2

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 24/06/2008 00:14:10
So HM government, or what will be left of it will not go in for tendering any more and if they do and a clydeside package is the best one they will just turn it down, why?

The only reason could be shear bloody mindedness.

We should remember such attitudes when unionsts are trying to tell us what great business minds they have.

Mind you, these unionist MP's forgot to mention the fact that yards have closed down under Westminster rule and that Scottish ship building has not been the only industry that has been destroyed whilst under there control.

Or hadn't they noticed?
3

ThomasP,

24/06/2008 00:16:56
The world is far bigger then the United Kingdom.

In an Independent Scotland would could encourage foriegn countries to invest in the Shipbuilding Industries.

We will compete for Contracts and play the game how it was suppose to be played and not live on the hand outs that the MOD gives out once they feel like it.

This damn contract has been going on for years and the dithering has already cost thousands of jobs.
4

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 00:21:13
Well done to all above nats for totally failing to spot that shipbuilding in Europe is a dying industry with only a few specialist shipyards still operating.

The vast majority of major ship-building is now in the Far East.

3. Only nats still bother with online polls although NO-ONE believes their results. A total waste of time.
5

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 00:25:11
1. "Of course we can also compete competitively for
military contracts..."

Please name the biggest Scottish warship builder. Or even name one.

In the unlikely event of independence, BAe will shut down its Clyde facilities and move them, probably with Govt assistance, to the Tyne, Belfast and/or Portsmouth.

Only nats would be ignorant enough to refute this.
6

ThomasP,

24/06/2008 00:27:42
Highland Mighty.

You know, I heard the same cr~p years ago from the Unionist Parties...yet the Shipbuilding is still alive today.

Shall we continue to beleive you and neglect our Industry?

Only an idiot would scaremongers because they have nothing else to say.
7

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 00:32:57
1. Just noticed yet more selective quoting!:

"With over 50 internationally competitive, technically advanced small and medium-sized shipyards, a costal country like Norway also of 5 million shows how successful proper diversification can be"

85% of all Norwegian shipbuilding orders are to supply its oil fields. As the oil dries up, those orders will start to dry up too.

Furthermore, Norwegian shipbuilding is heavily subsidised by the state and has made little profit in recent years.

And this is the model we should follow??
8

ThomasP,

24/06/2008 00:34:43
Highland Mighty.

We can either continue with our current set-up or open up and encourage foreign investment.

Which do you choose?
9

Traquir , Alba,

24/06/2008 00:36:52

5 Highland Mighty

It really must be quite sad being perpetually negative
all the time with never a positive outlook on
what Scotland can and could be.

From the Unionist "expert" on the ship building
expert.
"shipbuilding in Europe is a dying industry"

From an actual expert in the ship building industry
February 27, 2007

"The market is in an upswing owing to dynamic developments in the European shipbuilding industry. "

"Analysts said the push to modernize and expand fleets, accompanied by improved technology and highly productive equipment, is creating exciting growth potential in the welding equipment and consumables market."
see - tinyurl.com/6qjot4 & tinyurl.com/59x73k

And yes these is global competition from many
places including Asia, but which business do not
have significant competition - none. The key
is to have the confidence, build the necessary
skills, invest and plan for the future with
confidence and a positive attitude :)

Slàinte mhor a h-uile là a chi 's nach fhaic
10

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 00:37:56
10. We have always been open to foreign investment.

Your point and relevance?
11

Traquir , Alba,

24/06/2008 00:39:34
12 Highland Mighty,

"Your point and relevance?"

I think the main point is that you are not relevant :)
12

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 00:40:47
11. That 'market in an upswing' is the 'welding consumables' market not the shipbuilding market!!

Do you even read your own links?
13

ThomasP,

24/06/2008 00:41:03
Highland Mighty.

Not exactly.

As an Independent Country, determined to follow a law taxed regime similar to Ireland we have major advantages.
14

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 00:47:56
13. The pattern continues.

Nationalist makes ridiculous claim.
Nationalist gets caught out.
Nationalist fires off abuse and insults.

Still waiting for the name of our main shipbuilding company.
15

Highland Mighty,

24/06/2008 00:55:32
This is all just another example of wanting 'independence' despite the cost of thousands of jobs and billions of pounds.

However much he wraps himself in the flag, Salmond is the greatest threat to our livelihoods.

Salmond wants his place in history and his statue on the Mile and to hell with the consequences.
16

ThomasP,

24/06/2008 00:56:08
16 Highland Mighty

The pattern continues.

...the Unionist speaks cr~p

...defends the cr~p they speak

...rants about how Scotland gets free perscriptions
17

ThomasP,

24/06/2008 00:56:55
17 Highland Mighty.

More scaremongering.

All in the space of 10 minutes.
18

Senga Jean,

24/06/2008 01:10:01
Scotland would be so much better as an Independent country. Given the heightened froth and scare tactics I think there is a poll around the corner showing the vast majority of the clever Scots favour Independence. I also think you will find that the EC does not allow protectionism. I do hope these aircraft carriers are "stealth" ships since the latest missiles being marketed in Asia are guaranteed to find target over 50% of launches. Much better to have small swift defence force without any notions of taking over the planet.
19

Wisnaeme,

24/06/2008 01:10:24

Perhaps an alternative headline could read:


London based quango threatens sanctions.


...and while ah'm on the subject of sanctions; apparently an important global organisation has declared that a free and fair election in some country is an impossibility. Aye, I can agree with that statement.
.
20

Traquir , Alba,

24/06/2008 01:19:38
14 Highland Mighty,

"11. That 'market in an upswing' is the 'welding consumables' market not the shipbuilding market!!

Do you even read your own links?"

Given you are now an expert in the shipbuilding
industry don't you think there might be
some synergy between the two :)

In any case Mr Gloom and Doom that thinks the
Scotland could never have a viable
ship building industry with out
the MOD and ones like Norway that have a
successful shipbuilding industry will be
doomed, doomed, doomed :)
You really need to think more positive.
You probably know all of this already
but here are a few more quotes for you.

"Back to the major issue that occupies everybody’s mind these days. How long will the boom last? Have we seen the peak, or will the growth continue to escalate well into 2007 – and maybe 2008? Nobody knows. The only thing which is for sure, is that it will not continue forever. So what will happen when the downturn comes?

Norwegian yards have previously demonstrated an ability to adapt to changing times, and will certainly do it again. In a global world of shipbuilding Norwegian yards can be regarded as a niche industry, specialised in building smaller high tech vessels up to 20,000 dwt. Probably will we see a turn from the building of offshore vessels to smaller special ships, like oil products, chemical and gas tankers, reefers, ferries and fishing vessels. In these segments there is limited competition from the big yards in the Far East and some Europeans countries.

There is certainly a bright future for the Norwegian shipbuilding industry"

see - tinyurl.com/3p528y

That would be "bright" as in "positive" as in
having confidence in the capabilities of your
own country. Life is a series of challenges
and your attitude is a major factor in
determining success or failure. Seriously,
your perpetual negativity is really not
good for you, try and be more positive and you
will have a happier life. I am sure if somebody
boug
21

MisterN,

Scotland 24/06/2008 01:25:05
Not worth the effort.
How many times has this story been round the block?
22

Edward,

24/06/2008 01:56:30
Is there really 50, 000 people in Scotland working in defence manufacturing? Sounds like made up number
See no mention of the cancellation of two Type 45 Destroyers which were to have been built on the Clyde
This was announced by
23

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 24/06/2008 01:56:45
Remember Darien.
24

Edward,

24/06/2008 01:59:15
One things for sure a future English Government will not be able to sustain the size of Navy that there currently is. Fact is the two aircraft carrires, if they go ahead will probably be mothballed, once they are built and will form one of the biggest scandals as a complete waste of time!
25

Edward,

24/06/2008 02:04:43
'But it added: "In the long term it is unclear what naval requirement an independent Scotland would have and whether this would make up for the loss of UK MoD orders'
Labour still just dont get it! After a Scottish Independence, there is NO repeat NO United Kingdom, so NO UK MOD!!!. Labour and any other unionist parties are kidding themselves silly to think there would be a mistical UK remaining
So Labour , please accept the fact that there would be NO United Kingdom
NO UK MOD and certainly NO requirement for grandiose Global reach Navies. Current Royal Navy is NOT a global player , a future English Royal Navy will certainly not be one either
Scotland will have a Navy, but , like England, it will be a modest affair
26

Senga Jean,

the galley 24/06/2008 02:10:18
I love sailors. I only ever had two loves in my life (the Royal Navy and the Merchant Navy)
I love going down in a submarine. It's hard, but it's full of seamen.
27

democracy,

Scottish Borders 24/06/2008 04:33:30
A simple contrived Unionist argument in an attempt to encourage a mindset that without English contracts, Scotland could not stand alone and ignores the fact it is an enlightened Scottish audience it tries to convince and therefore wasting their time on us because we know where Unionist loyalties lie.
28

,

24/06/2008 04:50:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

LEAL,

24/06/2008 06:07:02
Scaremongering by the English parties.But if they want to have a reasoned debate on the economic benefits and pitfals of independence,I say "bring it on".We need to have this debate so the Scottish people can make an informed choice in 2010.And newspaper editors should be aware that the world will be monitoring their coverage of the debate.At current prices what is the daily revenue from North Sea oil?This money will easily smooth the way to a prosperous future for an independent Scotland.
30

War's ma bags,

LHR T5 24/06/2008 06:31:52
Employing 50,000 workers to convert scarce resources into something you then blow up does not sound much like the creation of wealth unless you sell those products for a profit to someone else who blows them up for you and then hopefully comes back for more. So there is an idea why does Scotland's 50,000 simply not offer their product to buyers other than the MOD. The saving to the country in not blowing up its own scarce resources but having someone else pay for the privilege would be enormous.
31

eric,

24/06/2008 07:56:59
its ok we have lots of mr smeatons anyway.
32

Scotsman in Dublin,

24/06/2008 08:17:39
What a lot of nonsense, the continued Labour smear which constantly suggests that Scotland need England to survive is an insult to Scotland. If there are future Naval contracts they will continue to go to the most competetive bidder as before. However without the substantial revenue generated in Scotland will the MOD still have the money to purchase its War machines?
33

roughrider,

Glasgow 24/06/2008 08:37:41
So the liebour scaremongering unionist parasites will stop giving Scotland defence contracts paid for with a fraction of Scottish oil money stolen by westmonster. When Scotland achieves independence Westmonster will be broke and will be able to afford SFA to protect their shitty wee country they will fold without Scotland's oil and these pathetic unionist losers know it.
It's time.
34

Edmond Dantès,

24/06/2008 08:48:53
The SNP would turn Scotland into a bunch of cowardly surrender monkies who would remain neutral in times of hostility. So the bottom line is they don't care about these jobs.

Instead of military science, high-end mechanical and electrical engineering and production we can all turn beds down, serve afternoon drinks and clean toilets for American golfing tourists.

Under Labour we already have to ask other countries to build parts of our kit because its too difficult and our citizens have forgotten how to make things, but the SNP will DECIMATE Scotland, they really are the only party beyond Labour capable of putting the final nail in our coffin.
35

Fairfax,

24/06/2008 09:13:11
ScotsmanInDublin (39): "However without the substantial revenue generated in Scotland will the MOD still have the money to purchase its War machines?"


England alone has a trillion pound GDP. The total cost of the Royal Navy is roughly equal to the money England spends on incapacity benefit, and roughly 10 times less than the money England spends on the NHS. I see no reason for this to change. In fact, given the appearance of a potentially hostile neighbour to our north, there is every reason to increase the Royal Navy.
36

Fairfax,

24/06/2008 09:22:33
Edward (32): "NO UK MOD and certainly NO requirement for grandiose Global reach Navies. Current Royal Navy is NOT a global player , a future English Royal Navy will certainly not be one either"

This is all a matter for England, and the other remnants of the UK (if any), after Scotland's secession. Since England will still have its trillion pound GDP, and since Scotland's departure is a small decrease in population (balanced by immigration to England since the early 1990s), I see little reason why there should be any change to the Royal Navy. In fact, the White Ensign would make an excellent flag for England after Scottish departure -- we could even call it the United Kingdom of England to preserve continuity of name.
37

Auckland Arab2,

24/06/2008 09:36:34
If the article is true then it amounts to blackmail. If it is false then it is just another scare story to herd the Scottish sheep into the pen, no questions asked. Anyone remember the "we'll be £5000 per man worse off" story?

The real sadness here is that Scottish politicians continue to run down their country and treat us like fools.
38

Guga II,

Rockall 24/06/2008 09:37:18
Everyone should ignore Highland Blight as he's not even Scottish.
39

Mcsnagpile,

24/06/2008 09:46:50
We could also get rid of a few more jobs by closing RAF strike command, naval, nuclear submarines bases and NATO in Scotland. Naval carriers are already obsolete in a 21st Century war scenario and a waste of money.

We could make up losses by giving priority for oil jobs and contracts going to Scottish labour and firms. Also government training schemes to keep Scottish labour and firms competitive. A great deal of Scottish labour has been sent to the scrap heap.
40

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 10:16:15
Ravenscraig and Gartcosch will probably close as well with independence. Britoil will be stripped and moved south. Distillers will be stripped and moved south as well. British Gas will probably sack all its admin staff in Scotland. The fishing industry will no doubt be badly damaged. Dounreay will be closed as it is a UK facility. The American navy bases such as Dunoon will all shut down as we won't be in Nato. And to top it all all the sacked people will get £5000 tax bills.
41

Scotsman in Dublin,

24/06/2008 10:22:37
#44, "given the appearance of a potentially hostile neighbour to our north"
Thats the problem with some English like yourself. One of your little colonies suggests that it may rather run its own country than be dictated to and you start using words like "potentially hostile". I have seen nothing in about 20 years of following this debate to suggest that Nationalists in Scotland are in any way "hostile" to England but the suggestion that empire is in its final death throes and the toys are out of the pram for you!
42

Scheme,

NL 24/06/2008 10:24:21
Last I heard, it was 14000 jobs at risk in Scotland via MOD contracts, and even that figure was considered an exageration. Now it's 50000... more scaremongering shight.

BTW, The dutch boat building industry is booming at the moment, with the Rotterdam yards being full of Scots who can't get work in the yards back home. None them are working on military contracts.
43

HughB,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 10:29:27
You know what, oil money tends not to cross national borders either.

So you keep your scraps of contracts, and we'll keep our oil money.
44

Alan B,

24/06/2008 10:30:43
#Fairfax

"I see no reason for this to change. In fact, given the appearance of a potentially hostile neighbour to our north, there is every reason to increase the Royal Navy."

Have u lost the plot.
45

HughB,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 10:34:17
And another thing, there is a national border there already between Scotland and England, although Westminster doesn't recognise that yet.

46

Alan B,

24/06/2008 10:34:25
While i think we all know we cannot take labours figures seriously, there would be problems during the transition to independence.

However the benefits would far outweigh any downsides. Scotlands economy has been outperformed not only by the UK in terms of economic growth over the past decade but also also the other small western european countries.

An indepedent scotland could tailor its economic policies to scotlands needs and address our slow economic growth.
47

brownlie,

24/06/2008 10:41:49
Highland Mighty

As a fellow unionist I find you a deep embarassment to our glorious cause.

If you are going to keep on making fatuous statements at least try for a bit of consistency. At posting 6 you insult nat posters by calling them ignorant and yet at posting 16 you, tearfully, accuse nats of "firing off abuse and insults".

Tha thu uamhasach gorach in trying to trade posts with Traquir who constantly humiliates you, and by extension the rest of us unionists, without being insulting.

Really, if you do not raise your game considerably we will have to bring Alfred E. back on board after his spell in exile.
48

,

24/06/2008 10:56:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
49

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 11:05:12
57. Gosh, what a union dividend.
50

Iain's,

24/06/2008 12:14:54
Doubtless all Scottish - born civil servants, soldiers, and politicians will be fired when Scotland achieves independence.
I can't wait!
51

Boswall,

24/06/2008 12:35:07
Posters from both sides here are making baseless arguments.

Unionists - there's nothing at all to suggest BAE would move it's operations away from an independent Scotland. Defence contracts are frequently handed to non UK firms such as the joint development of the F-35 (with the US) and indeed the French design input into their PA2 which is the French version of the QE Aircraft Carrier.

Nats - your usual pie in the sky assertions that if Scotland gets the contract to build X Y or Z then with a little self belief sprinkled with fairy dust we'll build a world class industry on the back of it. Of course this is totally unfounded. The lions share of the global ship building spend will always go where it's most cost effective.....and that's anywhere but the UK.

As the article above states - the defence industry is relatively stable so this is a non-story.
52

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 24/06/2008 12:43:31
#62

The F35 is an American project that the UK signed into, paying a set amount to become a tier 1 partner. the aircraft wil be built in the UK. Thales as a company offered design inputs into both the QE class and PA2 but the aircraft carriers again will be built in the UK. MOD policy is for warships to built in this country and this would continue after Independence, rump UK MOD orders are not placed with foreign yards. Before anyone says RFA that is a civilian support organisation.
53

ThomasP,

24/06/2008 12:44:06
62 Boswall.

The difference between a Unionist and Nationalist is that Nationalist seem determined to make anything work.

Unionists shoot everything done and don't bother with it unless it already makes alot of money.
54

Alan Reid,

NZ 24/06/2008 13:04:19
HM, same old c r a p you spew.

Do you remember the Roysth V Devenport stich up. Yes Scotland got shafted over that MOD contract, by John Majors goverment, because there was an election coming up and it was an marginal seat.
Scotland lost 300 thousand jobs because of that, and you are trying to tell us that we should stay in a Union with these scumbags that would sh!t on Scotland at every chance they get?
Have a look at the following, when Scotland is independant, we won't be spending so much on WMD's for a start, and we won't have to grovel to Westminster for handouts.
Christ man, please put your brain into gear!

I await your comments.


The following is a list of European countries of a similar size to Scotland.

Total Value of GDP at June 2006.

1.Switzerland .........$366 billion
2.Sweden ..............$354 billion
3.Norway ...............$284 billion
4.Denmark .............$254billion
5.Ireland ................$196 billion
6.Finland ................$193 billion
7.Scotland ..............$154 billion



Of course, these countries have differently sized populations, so it's always best to calculate wealth per head

1.Norway..............$61,740
2.Switzerland........$49,460
3.Ireland..............$49,000
4.Denmark...........$47,924
5.Sweden.............$39,333
6.Finland..............$37,115
7.Scotland............$30,495



So how much of their GDP do they spend on fighting illegal wars and nuclear weapons...well, none. Only Scotland does that. But how much of their GDP do they spend on defence as a percentage?

1.Scotland.........5.2%
2.Switzerland......1.0%
3.Finland.............1.2%
4.Sweden............1.6%
5.Norway.............1.7%
6.Ireland.............0.6%
7.Denmark...........1.4%



And how long can they expect to live, to enjoy all that extra disposable income? Life expectancy as follows:

1.Switzerland...82 years
2.Sweden........81 yrs
3.Norway........80yrs
4.Finland...
55

Alan Reid,

NZ 24/06/2008 13:05:17
And how long can they expect to live, to enjoy all that extra disposable income? Life expectancy as follows:

1.Switzerland...82 years
2.Sweden........81 yrs
3.Norway........80yrs
4.Finland.........79 yrs
5.Denmark......78 yrs
6.Ireland.........78 yrs
7.Scotland........75 yrs


Sourced from the IMF, the World Bank, OECD and the CIA handbook. So tell me HM, how well do you think we're doing in comparison to our neighbours?

56

Shave,

Edinburgh 24/06/2008 13:22:57
#65 Alan Reid
re: Rosyth v Davenport stitch-up
"Scotland lost 300 thousand jobs because of that"

Really? A number roughly equivalent to the entire population of Fife (at that time)? I think not.
57

,

24/06/2008 13:23:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
58

Boswall,

24/06/2008 13:29:01
#65&66

You've turned up at the wrong debate. 300,000 jobs because of Devonport - evidence please!
59

,

24/06/2008 13:32:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
60

,

24/06/2008 13:37:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
61

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 24/06/2008 13:54:34
#71

Whre did you get the over 50% figure from?
62

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 24/06/2008 13:56:55
The fight to stop the closure of the Kvaerner Govan shipyard in Glasgow was the most high profile industrial campaign in Scotland since the UCS sit-in in the 1970's.

From being days away from closure in 1999, the Govan yard, now part of BAE Systems, is participating in the construction of a multi-billion pound warship order from the Ministry of Defence.

'Back From the Brink' is the inside story of that struggle, told in his own words by the man who led the campaign, Govan's yard convenor Jamie Webster.

Jamie has been described variously as 'God of Govan' (Daily Mirror), '... a true working class hero.'
(STUC) and 'just Jamie.' (his wife!).


The book, and the story, begins with the naming and shaming of 13 high profile Scottish Labour MPs who refused to publicly back the fight to keep Govan open. That caused consternation within Labour's ranks and resulted in Jamie being ostracised by some elements in New Labour and by leading national union
officials.

'Back From the Brink' doesn't shy away from naming the men and women who put obstacles in Jamie Webster's path as he fought for the jobs of more than 1200 people. Union bosses and political leaders, both past and current, will be anxious to see how they are portrayed. Some will not like what they read,
others will be relieved.

But, the book is more than that. It also tells an intensely human story of courage, fortitude, despair and joy. It takes us from the moment Jamie learns the yard is earmarked for closure, through the dark days of trying, and failing, to find a buyer, to the suicide of a worker who couldn't cope with the stress, to the grim realisation that the yard was on the brink of closure, to the eventual jubilation when a buyer is secured at the eleventh hour.

This is also the story of a man with two families. Jamie Webster was responsible for twelve hundred people at the shipyard and for his own wife and children at home. It was a tough balancing act and one that by Jamie's own admi
63

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 24/06/2008 13:57:40
It was a tough balancing act and one that by Jamie's own admission he often failed to get right. He missed, for example, the death of his wife Isabel's
father, because he was on a campaign march. His relationship with Isabel could easily have foundered, but, instead, she was his rock.

'Back From the Brink' is a tale of a modern industrial campaign. Jamie fought it with the pragmatism of the time but with the heart and passion seen in union struggles during the 1970's and 80's.
Should be in bookshops today.
64

brownlie,

24/06/2008 14:05:24
70 Edmond

What a charming, elegant and intelligent contribution to this debate.

On topic, perhaps the wording of the SNP Referendum Question re settlement with the UK Government is designed to promote negotiations to prevent the job losses such as those referred to in this article.
65

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 24/06/2008 14:11:04
#56. The comments by the disgusting troll are beneath contempt.

The fact that we have a shipbuilding industry left on the Clyde is down to the fighting spirit of the tough and intelligent men that are bred in these yards. Jimmy Reid, Sammy Gilmour and Jamie Webster being just a sample.

Had it not been for the actions of these heroes the Clyde would be just one long muddy river with a few housing and office block developments on it.

When the residents of the Glasgow Harbour took over there expensive flats and penthouses they were told not to worry about Fairfields, as it would soon be closing. Amongst their number is the only cauality to fall on his sword after the Wendygate affair. No bad for a Labour cooncilor Mr. Gordon. He has invested heavily in the development.

Had Thatcher and the rest of the Unionist pack, aye Donald Dewar amongst them got there way the Clyde would now be empty. The Unionist cabal did nothing to maintain our industry, lest they rock the boat and spill the gravy.

You can see examples of that cowardice and self hatred amongst the afore mentioned trolls baying and howling and praying for the downfall of an independent Scotland on here. Make no mistake we are independent in all but name. If they had any semblance of a spine they would hang their heads in shame.

ALBA GU BRATH.
66

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 24/06/2008 14:19:56
ESSENTIAL READING FOR YOU UNIONIST HOWLERS:



Back From The Brink. by Jamie Webster.

Halls Of Infamy. by Niall Walker.

The Great Deception. by Niall Alsen.



Proof if it were required of the treachery, sloth and duplicity of the Labour and Unionist propaganda machine. Never again. It is time.

ALBA GU BRATH.
67

Miss H,

24/06/2008 14:31:18
Who are they kidding? Scotland doesn't have 50,000 defence jobs now so how could we lose them?

The six fleet tankers for the UK Royal Fleet Auxiliary are being built in Korea - so much for work not crossing borders!

Bidding for defence contracts is the same as anything else, you are either competitive or you're not.
68

Rodster,

Glasgow 24/06/2008 14:31:32
That's it then we have to get SNP to disband immediately , we are too weak , too stupid and too small to stand on our own two feet as a nation .
Any chance we could talk Wendy into taking over and perhaps apologising to Westminster for our audacity at electing a non Labour government for Scotland?
Quick send back some of our Barnet pocket money and ask Gordon to please ,please forgive us .
We realise now what a mistake we made we should never have tried to stand up to London Labour and the establishment .
We will just go back to voting in any of the monkeys you put a Red Rosette on , perhaps you could run a story tomorrow about the oil running out in 2010 too .
Then on Thursday we could have one where EU and UN say under no circumstances will Scotland be given entry to the big boys club.
Friday perhaps we could run with Shell , BP , and Exon say if Scotland becomes Independent we will cease work in North Sea immediately .
Saturday supplement could run something about Al Quaeda ready to move into Scotland to start new training camps after Independence .
Then on Sunday we can have the black hole in economy story without the largesse of Westminster .
There you go job done !!!
69

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 24/06/2008 14:48:00
#78


They have not yet announced where they will be built although the favouite bidder is BAE in conjunction with Hynduai who want to build on Korea due to a lack of capacity in the UK shipbuilding industry. they are not WARSHIPS they are civilian operated tankers. Warships will continue to be built in the UK.
70

danbob,

24/06/2008 14:51:02
It is very difficult to judge how english taxpayers would react to english defence contracts going north in the event of independence. The subject of scottish independence just gets a big yawn down here at the moment. Honestly outside of political circles people are more concerned about the weather. It's perfectly possible that independence if or when it happens could wake up the sleeping ogre that is the english shires, who seek out to try and protect english interests against scottish ones. England is a big trading partner and if Salmond should take the aggressive tone that some posters on here take, you may see a very bullish England biting back.
71

Fairfax,

24/06/2008 14:58:45
ScotsmanInDublin (50): "I have seen nothing in about 20 years of following this debate to suggest that Nationalists in Scotland are in any way "hostile" to England"

I wrote "potentially hostile", not "hostile". It's simply a point of military strategy, not your fantasy of English imperial reaction. It also goes both ways: Scotland will have a potentially hostile southern neighbour. In an ideal world, the two nations would remain friendly, but things change. There is also the point that England would now have a new land border to defend, as would Scotland.
72

Fairfax,

24/06/2008 15:05:33
Alan B (53): ""In fact, given the appearance of a potentially hostile neighbour to our north, there is every reason to increase the Royal Navy."

Have u lost the plot."

I don't think so, but I emphasize that my view is that Scotland would be potentially hostile, not necessarily so, and defence procurement must consider potential threats. The same applies to England, from the Scottish perspective post-independence.
73

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 24/06/2008 15:27:18
#81. Such a big yawn that you and the other troll Fairfax feel the need to turn up and rattle your wee plastic sassenach nat swords.

I remember the last time the Navy of Rule Britania tried to bully a wee independent nation on the high seas in this hemisphere, they lost, twice, to Iceland. Scots are forged with the same steel as you have found out on many occasions.

England despite all the effort put in to subsuming the Scottish nation over hundreds of years has failed yet again. All we are left with now are you howlers.

Once Alex Salmond and The Scottish Goverment declare UDI, what is now a draft will become a hurricane in the south.

Your posturing is as meaningless as the editor who condones these seeded troll comments from the agents provocateurs, the game has moved on beyond your predictable tactics.

Now why don't you both pop of to the Telegraph and join your racist little Engerlanders snotters..

ALBA GU BRATH.
74

Alan B,

24/06/2008 15:33:06
#Fairfax

There is not a chance Scotland would be hostile to England.

Scotland would have a very small military if it went independent. No nuclear weapons.

Scotland has not hostility towards england. Scotland just needs to sort out its own problems. An independent scotland would probably have a much better relationship with england. Scotland would not be able to blame england for any problems.

(The only indirect hostility scotland could be to england is by staying neutral or refusing to allow england to do military stuff on scottish territorial areas.)


75

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 24/06/2008 15:40:05
#84

Are you mad, the "cod wars" the RN could have sunk the entire Icelandic Navy in 5 minutes but the whole point was to put themselves between the Icelandic Gunboats and UK fishermen, mostly Scottish fishermen which they did selflessly damaging multi million pound frigates and destroyers to protect the fishermen.
76

danbob,

24/06/2008 16:29:41
You really need to try and follow what people are saying old HEN. You are that absorbed in the thought that you are right that any other point of view is lost on you. Not surprising that you use the name of a comic character as a posting name, Looks like you live in the comic world.
77

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 16:39:42
85. Well said.
78

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 24/06/2008 16:44:35
#87. I'm sorry what point did you think you were making other than spewing meaningless fascist bile.

You really will get a much more receptive audience on the Telegraph forum along with all the other anti-Scottish racist little Engerlanders.

With regard to posting names, DANBOB, sounds like a Little House on The Praire character to me. To much American culture me thinks.

I live in Lanarkshire Scotland and up until last year spent a lot of time working on the river, now that is the real world and the one that is the topic.

You seem to think you are in England by the tone of your post. It looks like you would have trouble knowing exactly where you are, even if you could find your posterior with both hands.

ALBA GU BRATH.
79

danbob,

24/06/2008 16:46:58
85# AlanB is right. They won't be any hostility. The two countrys are too linked for that. My father is from Glasgow, so am I, but went to school in England and have lived here most of the time, My mother is english and so are my sisters, they were born in Yorkshire. This scenario is played out in thousands of homes across the UK. Who do I support? dont know. Would I move to Scotland if Scotland boomed? possibly. Would scots move to England should scotlands economy falter? maybe. People like HEN BROON live in a fantasy land where you are scottish or english, after 300 years it's not like that.
80

danbob,

24/06/2008 16:59:41
89# I like that one HEN. (You seem to think your in England by the tone of your post) I am and the weather in Yorks is great today nice and sunny. I use my middle name and my sons middle name as a posting name, not an american in sight. Although I do remember little house on the prairie from being a child. It used to be on every Thursday teatime.
81

malcolmcean,

24/06/2008 17:05:22
Danbob writes: "People like HEN BROON live in a fantasy land where you are scottish or english, after 300 years it's not like that"

Ireland was part of the English empire for far, far longer (over twice as long). It would be no exaggeration to say that, currently, Ireland has far deeper and more numerous blodd links to England than Scotland has to England.

Also, Australia and England have incredibily strong familial ties, as the Irish do with the US.

Which sort of raises the question: what piojnt is it that you think you are making?
82

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/06/2008 17:11:07
90. If a people do not love their country enough to grant its right to independence.....

So you will only love Scotland if it booms? Those of us who do, do so out of a desire to improve our country...
83

danbob,

24/06/2008 17:24:39
Ayrshire 93# I take your point on that, but it's not always that simple. I work with a friend who's going out with a woman who works at that Electronics factory in East Kilbride that is due to close. (sorry but the name of the place escapes me) She is planning to move down here when she is made redundant. That's reality.
84

Fairfax,

24/06/2008 17:44:51
AlanB (85): "There is not a chance Scotland would be hostile to England."

Danbob (90): "The two countrys are too linked for that"

You're both probably correct, but defence strategy must sometimes be pessimistic: hoping for the best, but planning for the worst.
85

Rodster,

Glasgow 24/06/2008 17:51:02
I know I speak for many when I say that independence to me is not whether I will personally be £50 or a £100 a month better or worse off .
Just as when you leave home for the first time and take on rent or mortgage you find the going a little tough till you get into your stride .
That may well be the case with an Independent Scotland .
For me it is about dignity and self esteem for me and all who choose to live in my country , irrespective of their land of birth .
This is about no more illegal wears , no more WMD in our country .
No more feeding the most exclusive and corrupt gentelman's club in Westminster .
it is about doing the best for our country, not living in the past of empire and Spitfires and accursed Johnny Foreigners across the channel .
It is about Scotland taking its rightful place in the nations of the world .
it is about eradicating child and pensioner poverty , not about making more millionaires from speculators ,or spivs in the city of London.
It is not about quango jobs for the boys , it is not about lying to the people pitting one against hte other to keep in power at all costs.
it is about free education and healthcare for all our people it is about a more just society that suits the Scottish physcie .
it is about a just and fair left of centre democracy that respects all its people not just the spivs and profiteers .
It is about using our natural resources and not polluting our planet with Nuclear power stations that are neither needed or wanted .
86

danbob,

24/06/2008 17:59:22
Fairfax# If you look at Northern Ireland and Eire. That is how England and Scotland will be. It will be like. "Hey petrols a bit cheaper in Carlisle than here in Lockerbie lets go over the border and fill up there" or " Their selling 16 cans of lager cheaper over in Gretna lets go up and get some" All this talk of navys and hostility is daft. Thats what I mean by linked. It could be different with business though. It will depend a lot on the different tax situations.
87

danbob,

24/06/2008 18:05:05
96# A very frank and honest post. So how do you go about ensuring that is what you will get?
88

Rodster,

Glasgow 24/06/2008 18:17:59
98 danbob
Firstly you get rid of Westminster and the Union .
It is a fact the further away the government is from the people the less control the populace have over how things are managed .
We are a small nation and that should be less of a problem .
We get a written constitution for a start bannig nuclear weapons ever on our soil.
We bring tighter control to our financial sector unlike the free for all in the City of London .
We never have had the problem of Johnny foreigner and second world war nostalgia.
We do not have the attitude of little Englanders ( except some in our own midst that aspire to such levels)
We elect politicians that care for our country not their own well being as the Unionist brigade in this country are now .
With new beginnings we then do have "new politics"
Now I do not for one minute believe it will be the land of milk and honey , nor do I believe that we will not get our share of rotten politicians , however I do firmly believe we will have a much more just and equitable society with the advent of independence.
as to the nonsense of needing to have an army in case England gets hostile with us I find completely ludicrous in the extreme .
89

danbob,

24/06/2008 18:43:05
Rodster# If all the posters who are pro independence could put their views and visions across like that instead of shouting down and insulting, the battle would be half won.
90

SeriouslyAmused,

Balloch 24/06/2008 18:54:47
80 All Politicians are the same,Scotland

RFA vessels may be manned by civilians but they are owned by the government and are integral to the support of the Royal Navy - they act as support vessels in peace AND war. BAE want to make profits, they can do that by making the hulls cheaply in South Korea. But does that help the balance of payments? No. Does that help retain skills and capacity in the UK shipbuilding industry? No! And it is an absolute lie (even though BAE claim it) that there is no capacity in the UK to build these vessels. It is either disingenuous of them or outright lying through their teeth. These ships could be built on the Clyde, at Belfast or on the Tyne - no problem.

As to Highland Mighty about world shipbuilding - already inflation is starting to creep up in China and it wont be long before they and other Asian shipbuilders lose that competitive edge - or a large part of it. Europe dominates the world in the production of cruise ships, large ferries and specialist vessels. Germany, Holland, France, Italy, Poland, Norway and many others have strong viable commerical shipbuilding industries.

Great Britain gave up on manufacturing because the moneymakers dont want to actually work, or be involved with such painful processes as making things. I would hope, sincerely, that an independent Scotland would strive for a balanced, real economy. And not this disastrous fools paradise the UK thinks is sustainable.

£57 billion in the red and counting. Scotland, get out now!
91

,

24/06/2008 20:24:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
92

,

24/06/2008 20:27:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
93

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 24/06/2008 20:46:53
#96 #99 Rodster - Fantastic Post. Expect the Usual Suspects to try and belittle your sanity with their self interested patheticness.

To Love Your Country is a Positive Action. It has nothing to do with any other nation.

I too believe that independence is about what we can do with Scotland, We are a small nation and as such our problems are only small problems. With better management we can make serious progress. Why can we not lead in this world? Why must we ride on Englands coat tails?

I am totally delighted to see such views coming from someone in Glasgow where so often the religious situation there causes a very quick jump into the Irish or British Camps at a very young age, which is a clever move by the Unionists, to divide and conquer.

If people in Scotland read more history they could not fail to see the wrongs and manipulations of our leaders who sold us out for personal power as they still do.

Scotland shall be free eventually but we really should try and make it when it is to our best advantage. NOW!
94

Fairfax,

24/06/2008 22:55:39
Danbob (97): "All this talk of navys and hostility is daft."

I emphasize that I was considering potential hostility, not hostility. I hope that your optimistic view is correct, but strategy should not be based on hope alone. To consider it from Scotland's perspective, it is equally rational for future Scottish defence strategy to accept the (low) positive probability that England might become hostile. Consider, for example, the following dystopian future: an oil-rich Scotland adjacent to a declining England, seeing fossil fuels becoming ever more expensive. It is rational for Scotland to consider such scenarios, just in case: after all, wealth attracts predators.
95

Fairfax,

25/06/2008 09:33:30
roughrider (40): "When Scotland achieves independence Westmonster will be broke and will be able to afford SFA to protect their shitty wee country they will fold without Scotland's oil"

In other words, precisely the dystopia suggested in my dystopia 108, if not how I would have chosen to phrase it. It's always disturbing to read that Scottish minority which achieves nationalist extasy when postulating a ruined England, lying prone before the newly revealed glory of Scotland. Lebensraum anyone?

 

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