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Tension between Christianity and science exists only for propagandists

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Published Date: 24 March 2008
The myth of "tension" between science and Christianity (Leader, 22 March) rests on just two episodes.
The Catholic Church's rejection of Galileo's heliocentrism was a mistake by the Church leaders of the time. The dispute over the sufficiency of undirected natural processes to produce the startling complexity and diversity of life is ongoing, and is
a genuine academic debate (although some evolutionists behave more like inquisitors than scientists). Huge numbers of scientists were and are Christians, experiencing no tension at all, and I have never met a Christian who does not hold science in high regard. The "myth" is propagated as common knowledge by secularists and scientists rejecting the moral guidance of the Church. If the Catholic Church has blundered in scientific matters on occasion, how many times have scientists blundered in scientific matters?

The media attention that the Catholic Church achieves through its forthright pronouncements is impressive, but it should be remembered that Catholicism and liberalism are not the only Christian games in town. There are many growing Churches applying Christian principles to contemporary issues, but they seem to have virtually no media profile at all.

RICHARD LUCAS, Cowan Road, Edinburgh

The discussion inspired by Bishop Joseph Devine's outburst over the last week (your reports and Letters, passim) has simply highlighted the absence but need for someone to represent my atheist, rationalist and science-based views.

Now, Cardinal Keith O'Brien has waded into the debate on embryonic research with views that are based on the supernatural and superstitious (your report, 21 March). He has tried to create the image in people's minds of human-rabbits jumping around our streets which is as ridiculous as it is ignorant. It is however consistent with someone who believes in the eternal soul, human life and consciousness starting at the point of conception and his own divine moral right to instruct our elected politicians.

These are all positions that I fundamentally dispute, but where is my leader able to command a fraction of the airtime and column inches that the cardinal can? Religious leaders continue to occupy an elevated position in our society not because they are representative, not through any expertise, qualifications or experience but because they assert the divinity of their own institution.

NAOMI McAULIFFE, Inverleith, Edinburgh

There is really no valid comparison between the treatment of Galileo in 1633 by the Roman Catholic Church and the forthright condemnation by Cardinal Keith O'Brien of so-called medical research involving the deliberate creation of hybrid human embryos.

Galileo was defending his right to report what he had observed was true, but there is no obvious connection between such experimentation involving hybrid human embryos and the discovery of cures for Parkinson's, Alzheimer's and motor-neurone disease.

Unfortunately, the basic assumption on which much of this experimentation is based, is that science is not really concerned with morality and that an imaginary end justifies the means.

(DR) DAVID PURVES, Strathalmond Road, Edinburgh

The current debate raging over embryonic research raises the question "do we have any politicians with integrity"?

Politicians who vote according to their conscience and in the way expected by their electorate?

JOHN ATKINS, Grigorhill, Nairn, Inverness-shire





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  • Last Updated: 23 March 2008 9:01 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 24/03/2008 07:45:27
Richard Lucas refers to "The dispute over the sufficiency of undirected natural processes to produce the startling complexity and diversity of life".

There is no such dispute: Mr Lucas is raising a straw man argument only marginally less ridiculous than the more frequent use of the challenge, "How can random processes produce life etc."

The true argument is that the processes of evolution are far from undirected or random: they are tightly constrained and directed - not by divine intervention or will, but by the environment in which they occur.

A simple analogy is to ask, "How is it that the billions of tiny rain drops that fall in a (largely) random and undirected fashion over a land mass manage to organise themselves so that they tend to reach the coast in a few discrete flows of water?"

The answer, so obvious that it generally passes unnoticed, is that the environment - the shape and slope of land - organises and directs the raindrops to form streams of water that we call rivers. No divine direction or intervention is required.

The processes of evolution are similarly directed by the environment in which they occur and the persistent failure to recognise this amongst those who question evolution's potential reveals the poverty of their arguments.

2

Gdgy,

24/03/2008 07:53:33
Scientists can be godbotherers and godbotherers can be scientists..it does not make them good at either....
3

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern central Scotland 24/03/2008 08:41:18
Richard Lucas makes the extremely valid point that the default position for Christianity in UK media seems to be that of the RC Church, which represents, despite attempts to manipulate or 'spin' the figures, a minority of the religiously observant in Scotland and the UK, and an even smaller minority as against the entire population.

The CofE is routinely dismissed as a gormless band of eccentrics, while the Church of Scotland might as well be disbanded for (a) their lack of interest in matters spiritual and (b) their failure to challenge Rome when necessary, and the 'free' Churches are tarred with the image of swivel eyed extremist lunacy.

The latter stance of the CofS is probably down to complacency and the belief that the reformation has somehow run its course - it hasn't.

Scotland' spiritual culture is not RC, it is predominantly presbyterian (with a small p) but its people have views and opinions which are not formed by the pronouncements of Rome, so I challenge the Church of Scotland to get up off its collective behind and start punching their weight, otherwise, like the Labour Party in Scotland, it will wither away and become a mere curiosity.
4

A McBay,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 09:09:58
I recommend to Richard Lucas that he reads Professor John William Draper’s 1878 opus “History of the Conflict between Religion and Science”. There he will find an interesting work showing how religion of various hues has at various times in human history sought to frustrate and hinder science and human progress.

There, Draper points out that the history of scientific progress is not a mere record of isolated discoveries, as Mr Lucas’ letter tends to suggest. Draper says “It is a narrative of the conflict of two contending powers, the expansive force of human intellect on one side, and the compression arising from traditionary faith and human interests on the other”

As to the coverage given the Cardinal, I think calls for other denominations to "start punching their weight" are misplaced. The public will not take kindly to an endless stream of religious sects claiming their position is the one and only true and valid one, or as in this case, attempting to blackmail the Prime Minister into allowing "their" MPs vote in accordance with their religious superstitions and prejudices rather than in accordance with democratic representation, or with reason and rationalism.

5

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24/03/2008 09:14:40
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24/03/2008 09:25:35
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7

Neil,

Glasgow 24/03/2008 10:01:05
The Earth going round the Sun & evolution are not the sole points on which religion has disputed with science merely the best known (& the Church burning Bruno Gordiano alive for believing the same as Galileo is a les well known effect).

The Church also launched a campaign against Benjamin franklin's invention of the lightning rod which apparently interfered with God's will in punishing evildoers - this eventually collapsed when it was noticed that Church steeples attracted more than their fair share of lightning). In more modern times the last Pope addressed a group of physicist to assure them that it was now quite alright to study the Big Bang but not what happened "before" - Stephen Hawking who was studying that was in the audience.

The conflict between religion & science is inescapable since religion asserts things without evidence by Faith & in theory cannot change, whereas science demands evidence & has no objection (at least in theory) to junking beliefs. Whenever science investigates something religion has already asserted it is almost certain it will find the former wrong to some extent.
8

G,

dundy 24/03/2008 10:20:17
All these catholic labour MPs signed up for their manifesto which promised this bill on embryo research
That was the time to remember their problems -NOT after you had been elected...
Hypocrites or idiots? You decide.....
9

Margaret L,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 10:36:02
What I don't understand is why there is not more tension. Those who believe in the Chistian faith and evolution have still got to explain where in the long march to home sapiens we obtained a soul. Was it at the chimpanzee stage or the small rodent stage or when?
10

A McBay,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 11:07:59
James 11#

I presume you will now explain away why the Catholic Church burned Giordano Bruno alive at the stake for similar heresies some 33 years earlier?

Please also explain the outburst by an African cardinal last year to the effect that condoms are being distributed in Africa having first been infected by a virus to kill off the African people more quickly. Please also give me the reference for any public rebuke issued by the Vatican for this statement.

Yoy say, jokingly I hope, that "Without the Catholic Church, western science as we know it today would not exist." The fact that western science exists as it does is in spite of the Vatican, not because of it. We have the Enlightenment to thank for scientific progress, the reaction against the very superstition and fear spread by organised religion that you seem to proclaim as science's saviour

11

A McBay,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 11:08:05
James 11#

I presume you will now explain away why the Catholic Church burned Giordano Bruno alive at the stake for similar heresies some 33 years earlier?

Please also explain the outburst by an African cardinal last year to the effect that condoms are being distributed in Africa having first been infected by a virus to kill off the African people more quickly. Please also give me the reference for any public rebuke issued by the Vatican for this statement.

Yoy say, jokingly I hope, that "Without the Catholic Church, western science as we know it today would not exist." The fact that western science exists as it does is in spite of the Vatican, not because of it. We have the Enlightenment to thank for scientific progress, the reaction against the very superstition and fear spread by organised religion that you seem to proclaim as science's saviour

12

A McBay,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 11:08:54
How did I end up making the last post twice? Can anyone explain? I only clicked once on "post"!
13

,

24/03/2008 12:32:13
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24/03/2008 14:23:18
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24/03/2008 14:43:07
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G,

dundy 24/03/2008 15:16:28
There is no conflict between science and religion - it's all one sided - the religious despise science because it offers other explanations and undermines their position...now that religion cannot control science the conflict is over....
17

Neil,

Glasgow 24/03/2008 16:58:28
You make a fair case James. The correlation between clerics & scientists in the Middle ages is strong if only because nobody eles could read. You could even have pointed out that Mendel was unfairly ignored by the scientific establishement partly because he was a priest rather than a wll known scientist. I might also point out that quite a number of scientists have taken on jobs like government's chief science advisor where a de facto condition has been that they support the new religion of "environmentalism" & its doctrine of damnation by global warming. Individuals rarely live up, or indeed down, to our ideals.

Nonetheless there is a clear contradiction between revealed truth by Faith & by experiment & observation & the latter has always proven correct when they have clashed.
18

Neil,

Glasgow 24/03/2008 17:53:33
One could also point out that in the Middle Ages alchemists played a major part in founding chemistry & astrolegers before that virtually founded astronomy. Doesn't prove either valuable now. I will grant that since the Catholics derive authority from the Papacy while Protestants from the Bible the latter have been much less willing to change - for example over evolution.

Whatever St Augustine said no church has, or could, be happy to see its cherished beliefs fall. Should science ever prove that there is no Creator, or worse that there is & he has no relationship with any branch of any current religion it is difficult to see them maintain credibility.
19

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24/03/2008 18:29:02
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Artemis,

24/03/2008 18:59:12
#10 - first of all, humans are not descended from chimpanzees (apart from maybe John Gibson) or small rodents. Secondly, define soul and prove it exists.
21

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24/03/2008 19:13:21
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24/03/2008 19:16:59
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Gdgy,

dndy 24/03/2008 20:41:31
The godbotherers have been bashing scientists for years now and long may it continue, like their campaign to equate atheism with religion, it only draws attention to their faults and illogicality of their beliefs and does not diminish that of their foes...
24

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24/03/2008 21:04:29
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24/03/2008 21:12:26
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Beth Boyle,

NY 25/03/2008 01:25:12
I could not agree more. I love Science and a practising Christian. Both my parents were practising Christians and biologists. This is all a manufactured battle made to feed the press. Many great Jews and Christians contributed to Science and there are millions of Christian doctors who understand full well there is no conflict between science and religion.
27

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25/03/2008 11:02:20
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25/03/2008 11:42:35
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25/03/2008 11:43:09
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jimboforreason,

London 30/03/2008 12:59:04
The suggestion that there have been only two examples in history of the church and science being at odds with one another, and the very first comment on this thread, is a perfect example of the standard of intellectual rigor that many (not all) people of faith demonstrate. Dave from Barra disagrees with Naomi's arguments (which are spot on), by telling her to "step off your high horse, then maybe some grown up can express your views", then "Sadly, being a woman, you will be as rational as the catholic faith itself and as for science based views? Yeah, you mean what you read in Heat or Star magazine"...then "...put forward a concise and unscrupulous (don't you mean scrupulous?)argument, you may be taken seriously." This type of misogynistic, irrational thinking is much more common among the faithful that the preachers want others to know...ignorance keeps people dependent to magical thinking. And the author of the original article should read a history book or two or twenty instead of the Bible.

 

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