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Generals challenge spending of £20bn on Trident

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Published Date: 16 January 2009
BRITAIN'S decision to spend £20 billion on renewing its independent nuclear deterrent was last night challenged by a group of retired senior military officers, who branded the Trident system "completely useless" against modern threats.
The former head of the armed forces, Field Marshal Lord Bramall, backed by two senior generals, argued in a letter to a London newspaper that the nuclear deterrent is no longer truly independent and does not guarantee Britain a seat at the top table
of international diplomacy in the UN Security Council.

The sums being spent on replacing the ageing submarines that carry the Trident ballistic missiles could be better used on conventional weapons that are much needed, they suggested.

"Nuclear weapons have shown themselves to be completely useless as a deterrent to the threats and scale of violence we currently face or are likely to face, particularly international terrorism," the letter stated.

"Our independent deterrent has become virtually irrelevant, except in the context of domestic politics."

Lord Ramsbotham, a retired army general, who also signed the letter, said he wanted to restart the debate over the renewal of Trident, which was approved by the House of Commons in 2007.

Lord Ramsbotham said: "We want to have a proper argument about this.

"We argue that it is conventional weapons we now need. Their pinpoint accuracy, their ability to help our forces in the sort of conflicts that are taking place is something which means you have to question the huge expense of Trident, which is limiting what we can do."





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  • Last Updated: 16 January 2009 1:50 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Nuclear defence
 
1

Billiam Wallace,

16/01/2009 02:40:28
Hear, hear. Well said by the generals but where are the serving officers who know what is happening at the front lines in the middle east and realise how our troops are being betrayed by the MOD and NuLiebore?
Are they too frightened for their promotions and pensions to put their heads above the parapet on behalf of the men and women that they are supposed to be leading?

"Lord Ramsbotham said: "We want to have a proper argument about this."

"Is this the right room for an argument?"

I think his lordship meant 'debate'. He is unlikely to get either from Gudrun Broon, spin and avoidance are all they are capable of.
2

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 16/01/2009 03:48:30
Well done the old boys club. Do'nt hold your breath though, Westminster will not listen to you, as they want to believe that having a nuclear deterrent is going to stop terrorism. What they DO NOT WANT to believe is that they are culpable for the Lives of the Service Men/Women who serve them!!! Roll on Referendum Day when SCOTLAND FINALLY DECIDES TO LEAVE this dishonest Union with England!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3

subrosa,

16/01/2009 07:36:26
# 1
'Are they too frightened for their promotions and pensions to put their heads above the parapet on behalf of the men and women that they are supposed to be leading'

Yes they are. What do you want them to do? Continue to do their best to protect their men and women or be kicked out because they won't get involved in politics. Many senior officers quietly challenge politicians behind the scenes but they do their utmost not to openly become involved.

Their jobs are hard enough without more stress. A military pension is valuable to a serviceman, perhaps more than other public service areas. No free housing or food (like the police used to have), everything has to be paid for and at high tariffs these days. Many could easily earn their military salaries multiple times over in civvie street, but they chose to do the job they do.

Don't knock our military. All things considered (and that includes inferior equipment) our service personnel are still among the best in the world.
4

subrosa,

16/01/2009 07:38:30
Back to the article. Well done the retired officers. Let's hope you manage to stimulate enough debate about this matter. Keep the pressure up on the Westminster government and don't take no for an answer.
5

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 16/01/2009 08:09:23
#1 says "Hear, hear. Well said by the generals but where are the serving officers who know what is happening at the front lines in the middle east and realise how our troops are being betrayed by the MOD and NuLiebore?"
Has he never heard of Sir Richard Dannatt the present head of the British Army who has forfeited his chance of becoming Chief of the Defence Staff due to his outspoken comments.
6

gus1940,

Edinburgh 16/01/2009 09:03:10
If we must have nukes cruise missiles would be perfectly adequate and a damned sight cheaper and more flexible than Trident.
7

Selgovae,

16/01/2009 09:16:25
#5 sm753 'Since they have such infallible foresight that they can predict the "uselessness" of the deterrent 50 years from now,'

Are you saying we should be prepared for any unconceivable threat? I guess these retired military types lack your imagination. I suppose if Norway were to be taken over by alien lizards, we might have to use nukes. Although I understand a mixture of shampoo and anti-freeze is more effective. I suggest you stock up now.
8

Doh,

16/01/2009 09:17:06


Total waste of money.

We would be better making them out of cardboard and then telling the rest of the world we had weapons of "mass destruction".

Gordon Brown and George Bush would beleive it and be very deterred.

9

Nevsky,,

Moscow 16/01/2009 09:55:49
5 sm753#

Nutter lol..but very funny..every time there is this kind of story sm753.5 comes on and calls for the laughble UK to start singling land of hope and glory and arm itself to the teeth...he even knows better than generals..amazing!

If 1 nuke is fired at the UK then the deterrent has failed and the UK would not fire back anyway..pointless waste of money.



10

John S,

16/01/2009 10:17:17
Replacing Trident to cost £100bn

A new analysis of projected spending based on official figures suggests that the cost of buying and operating a successor to Trident will be around £70 billion. Added to that, there is the £30 billion it will cost to keep the existing warheads in service until 2023.

In the past, ministers have said that maintaining Trident absorbed no more than three per cent of the total defence budget. But recently, they have increased this figure to five or six per cent.

In evidence to the House of Commons Defence Committee last week, the Defence Secretary Des Browne, admitted that the cost estimates had been revised. "We went through an exercise recently to make sure that we were identifying as accurately as we could the costs that are associated with our nuclear weapons systems," he said.

Des Browne said that it was "perfectly legitimate" to assume that Trident would continue to absorb five or six per cent of the defence budget. On that basis, calculations suggest, the total cost of maintaining and replacing Britain's nuclear weapons between now and 2054 will be between £90 and £110 billion (see table below).11 February 2007

buying replacement weapons system / £15 - 20 billion
operating new system 2024-2054 / £49 - 59 billion
operating existing system 2007-2023 / £26 - 31 billion
total cost 2007-2054 / £90 - 110 billion
http://tinyurl.com/6y98vc
11

daveserviceman,

edinburgh 16/01/2009 10:21:34
As a member of the royal navy I can say that we have hated the tridents we do not wish to inflict mass destruction on anyone it would be of no purpose as the land would never rcover from an attack for over a thousand years. we should not renew the trident and the money saved would cover some of the costs of the new aircraft carriers and aircraft who would be alble to launch as much conventional fire power as trident. and the rest could be shared out amongst the rest of the armed forces. one this is for certain we have to stop the accountants putting the bottom right hand column before the lives of service people in the front line
12

TWC,

16/01/2009 10:43:13
There are some posters who just quote Labour Mantra whatever the subject they never disagree with what Gordon says which suggests they are Labour plants.
I am not a Nat and I think it has been obvious for some time that Trident is a waste of money.
Incidently these old buffers said something else which was news to me; they said that UK didn't own the missiles so would need Authority to launch.

Is that so? I don't know how it works.
13

Nevsky,,

Moscow 16/01/2009 10:46:14
14 sm753#

Not really a cringer at all...leave that to the embarassing unionists.

How much has the Anglo-Irish bank cost the taxpayer to nationalise?

How much has the UK paid so far...lol i think you know who has played the smarter hand and it's not your beloved union now is it?

Any idea how much further the failed UK policy will cost..another set of bail outs perhaps?

You are the eejit if you think the UK package has been a roaring success compared to guaranteeing the Irish banks assets and nationalising 1 bank..none lost though like in Scotland!

Go and do the figures for me Captain Pugwash..when you are finished playing warships on your pc that is!
14

Number 6,

Germany 16/01/2009 11:07:58

A total waste of money let's get rid of them now.

Scotland does not need such horrific weapons, indeed,
the template for a future defence force will concentrate on medical services, and disaster management.

There is no need for such ridicolous and obscenely expensive WMD. Leave that to phycopaths like the US, who would have no hesitation using them if they thought they could get away with it.
15

TWC,

16/01/2009 11:12:57
Let's stop Trident update, at least. The military men were the only ones carrying the arguement, so if hey say no it should be stopped.
Incidently the old buffers said that UK didn't own the missiles so would need approval to fire them.
How does that work? does anybody know?
16

TWC,

16/01/2009 11:23:44
20 sm753
No Smee on the Radio this morning they quoted one as saying that we didn't actually own the missiles so it is unlikely we would launch without permission.
That was why I asked how it is set up.
17

Nevsky,,

Moscow 16/01/2009 11:27:35
They would not launch missiles anyway this a complete fabrication.

If the UK was under attack there is no way the UK would launch an attack as the deterrent would have simple failed..that's why it is called a deterrent!

Simply stupid!
18

John S,

16/01/2009 11:30:44
#15/#19TWC - they said that UK didn't own the missiles so would need Authority to launch. Is that so? I don't know how it works. This is interesting to read it does mention.At least eight states in the world now possess functional nuclear weapons and the means of delivering them. All of them, except Britain, manufacture and maintain their own nuclear weapons and the means of delivering them. All of them, except Britain, have complete control over the use of their systems. In other words, all of them, except Britain, possess what can reasonably be described as an “independent” nuclear
We acquire the weapons from the United States and we have to send them back to be repaired and serviced, so we can retain the weapons only if we are always on good terms with the US.
The real reason for replacing Trident submarines.
http://tinyurl.com/5qanel

I think the UK would have the final say on who fired them with consultation with the USA or is it the case they who supply the nuclear weapons calls the tune ?

And the last part:- In the 1980s, many eloquent speeches were made by Members on this matter. I was particularly struck by the current Chancellor’s contribution of 19 June 1984. In a debate similar to this one, he said “The dominant theme of this debate has been the concern expressed by hon. Members about the escalating cost of the Trident programme, a project which is unacceptably expensive, economically wasteful and militarily unsound. It is a project which, while escalating the risks of nuclear war, puts at risk the integrity of our conventional defences.”
19

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 16/01/2009 11:32:15
The UK has had a skewed defence policy for decades.

The real crunch came in Iraq and Afghanistan when the public learned to the MoD's embarrassment that it could hardly arm and equip Dad's Army!

The UK continues to delude itself that it is still a substantial world power when in effect ever since ejection from Empire and Suez it has been a satellite State of the world's only true superpower: the United States of America.

The UK has been in lengthy negotiations with the US (which has them over a barrel)to purchase "second hand" Trident equipment because it cannot afford the massive cost of new equipment to arm 4 submarines?

Recently, the UK secretly sold of its remaining stake in the nuclear warhead facility at Aldermaston to a Californian company, and is now solely reliant on the good ol' US of A!

Ever since the 1960s Blue Streak debacle. the Limey's have continued with the pretence of having an independent nuclear deterrent when it has always been a junior partner of Uncle Sam who would always bale it out, that's if it ever got into real trouble.
20

David MacVicar,

web 16/01/2009 11:50:59
John S.

My understanding is that the submarines have to be autonomous intimes of war. Under what circumstance would permission be required? After bombs were launched at us? The only deterrant is Bomb us, we will bomb you.

The crew of each Submarine have procedures for being able to launch independent attack depending on orders AFAIK.
21

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 16/01/2009 12:51:31
The UK government will ignore this good advice. These are not military assets, they are political assets. They are the only way to keep the UK's feet under the big boy's table.

Without them the UK is a third rate military power.

It would lose a contest of arms with any of the emerging regional powers. Iran, Syria, Egypt, India, China, Brazil, would all be able to defeat the UK acting alone.

So even though they no longer serve any strategic need they will continue to exist so that UK politicians can dance on the world stage.
22

The Tin Man,

16/01/2009 13:06:42
The UK's ability to turn Vladivostok into glass is a bit dated, to say the least.

Better to use the money on VAT cuts....

Or buying banks.....
23

TWC,

16/01/2009 13:29:59
Not really an answer but then you are just a New Labour poodle. It was after all the BBC so I assume they are not anti Labour.
We must always face the issue and I notice that some non poodle fellow unionists and Nats have tried to do so.
Smee I hope you have as bad a day on posts today as you've had over the last 3 days
24

Nevsky,,

Moscow 16/01/2009 13:53:30
sm753#

European Army is on it's way anyway so who cares in the end!

Much more cost effective and stable than each country having it's wee pretendy armies!
25

Nevsky,,

Moscow 16/01/2009 13:55:27
sm753#

As a matter of interest Russia has 5 million serving soldiers at any one time..makes the UK force of 275 look a bit of a inferior...still we can always nuke them eh sm753.25%?
26

Billiam Wallace,

16/01/2009 14:08:29
#3 and #6 absolutely no insult to our forces intended whatsoever. More power to the likes of Sir Richard Dannatt. Why is it that the politicoes are always against the type of people who are really valuable and capable? In Westmosnter we have a totally discredited government led by a cabal of lying, self-serving cowards not fit to lick the boots of our troops and there is no groundswell of public opinion to make them get out. Why are we so incapable of organising a revolution or even calling for an election? We are the people who pay these clowns to represent us, it should be up to us when they go to the country, especially if they are as awful as Strangely-Brown and his Darling.
27

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/01/2009 14:11:04
I think the key section of the letter to the Times is that one that reads:

''Our independent deterrent has become virtually irrelevent, except in the context of domestic politics''.

How right they are, Trident is necessary for New Labour/Tories to bolster their image of the UK as a globe-striding colssus, up there with the big boys, at the top table, as if the sun had never set on the Empire. That's the only reason to keep it, it is useless in the current and foreseeable global political future.

The military I would say are in a uniquely well positioned place to say that, you have to wonder about the psychology of those people who support ''son of Trident'' - has the sun never set on the Empire for them either ?

And meantime, we are sending the troops into conflicts without basic equipment.
28

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/01/2009 16:52:18
The UK' Trident ''deterrent'' is assigned to NATO for the ''defence of the alliance''. It is independent in name only, and we are reliant upon US technology in it's deployment. Theoretically it could be used uniltaterally but realistically ? I think not.
29

P Rayner.,

Latin America . 16/01/2009 17:42:04
No wonder morale in the British armed forces is at a low ebb , as evidenced by the debacle of the Army in Basra and the humiliation of Nelsons Navy reps agaist Iranian thugs , if its still led by such ossified thinking in its chains of command of messrs Bramall and Ramsbotham . Firstly , though advantaged by US missile technology , Britains nuclear deterrent is independent . All countries , including the US , are to some extent reliant on foreign arms technology without being dependent or restricted . Secondly , as long as other countries retain a nuclear arsenal it is simply stupid for Britain to give up hers . Surely the lessons of one million years of human nature and behaviour make imperative the need not to walk naked . That Aberdeen cowardly thug would have had cause to pause had he faced a fifteen stone weight lifter , irrespective of his drink or drugs . People only have morals or restraint when they fear something . To think this basic common sense is absent in those whoonce led our Forces is frightening . Perhaps they should take longer snoozes during Lords debates .
30

Brian Hill,

19/03/2009 02:30:03
So there is such a thing as Military Intelligence after all?

Well done those Generals. They should be invited to Holyrood and loudly applauded.

Of course, it's not just the initial £20billion, it costs a small fortune to maintain them as well.

Not to mention keeping Scotland's position as a Prime Target in the event of a nuclear strike, on the grounds that your first job is to knock out the enemy's ability to retaliate, in this case knock out Trident with Glasgow as a bit of collateral damage...sorry about that chaps, nothing personal, it's war.

 

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