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Pram fight mums claim bus drivers back their campaign

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Published Date: 15 October 2008
PARENTS fighting for the right to take prams on buses say they have the backing of bus drivers against transport bosses.
They claim the drivers also want the controversial Lothian Buses "pram ban" to be scrapped, after many expressed sympathy with protesters at a demonstration outside the company's headquarters yesterday.

Mum-of-one Caroline Burgess, 27, from Barnto
n, said: "Talking to them, they said they would rather have this policy lifted. I hope the company will see sense."

Parents took to the pavement outside the Annandale Street depot at about 3pm to raise awareness of their campaign. They handed out posters to drivers and spoke to them about their fight.

Ms Burgess said: "We were worried that drivers perhaps thought we were against them because of the ban. I hope we have presented ourselves in such a light that shows we are not.

"This is about their management."

During the summer, Lothian Buses did an apparent U-turn on its normal practice of allowing all prams or buggies on to buses. It now says that only foldable devices are permitted, to comply with disability legislation by making room for wheelchair users.

Managers insist this has always been Lothian Buses' policy, despite parents arguing they travelled for years with prams, and would use a common sense approach by getting off if a wheelchair user needed space.

Campaigners believe drivers are being placed in an awkward position, having to turn away parents and babies in order to comply with company regulations, even though many seem to be against the ban.

Sarah Hinks, 31, from Barnton, used Lothian Buses with her seven-month-old son until the ban was enforced.

She said: "Drivers have been really supportive. We want them to know it's just as confusing for us as it is for them in working out exactly what type of "foldable" buggy is allowed on.

"We really didn't want to have to resort to this protest."

Campaigners also took to the city centre yesterday in a bid to gather more signatures for their now 1600-strong petition which will go to the Scottish Parliament's petition committee for consideration on November 4.

A further 200 people offered support, adding to backing from the council and politicians across the city.

Ms Burgess said: "We don't want drivers to perhaps use their discretion and just let us on buses. This is about having the confidence to know we can travel with Lothian Buses.

"We don't want a half-baked compromise – it's not good enough. Our campaign is all about raising awareness and getting as much support from the public."

A spokesman for Lothian Buses said its policy on prams remained the same and would not be changing.





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 15 October 2008 11:04 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Lothian Buses
 
1

mystic,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 12:06:12
I completely support parents taking prams on buses. As the government and council are forcing us not to use our cars, if these parents cannot use public transport, how else can they travel anywhere in the city. They can't walk everywhere you know.

www.SeeingEdinburgh.co.uk
2

Bob 2,

15/10/2008 12:09:32
me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me

No1 and just remember the unfortunate person in the wheelchair who cannot walk at all and relies on Buses for travelling.
3

john3,

15/10/2008 12:10:14
I completely oppose prams on buses. Folding buggies yes. Seats vacated when the buggy is aboard. No one stops use of public transport only abuse. Also let us all help the mum to fold her buggy when necessary.
4

Bob 2,

15/10/2008 12:10:19
another Evening Story, getting repeated
another Evening Story, getting repeated
another Evening Story, getting repeated
another Evening Story, getting repeated


yaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwn!
5

Dragonhead,

Dalian,China 15/10/2008 12:17:12
Years ago on the front of buses in New Zealand,there were racks on the front of the bus to which pushchairs could be attached.On arrival at the destination of choice, the pushchair,folded or otherwise,was just unhooked,open,sprog plonked therein and everyone was happy.Surely in the country that gave so much to the world some one with more than two grey cells could come up with something similar.If my memory serves me rightly, in NZ the bus company is OWNED by the Stagecoach bus company!!Come on you Scottish inventors,get off your backsides and produce!
6

Number1,

15/10/2008 12:20:03
Why can't this paper find something else to report on.
What about..... the poor standard of driving by taxis and private car owners in edinburgh.
Taxi tw@ts: A 4 space taxi rank means ONLY 4 taxis are permitted to wait in that space and double yellow lines is not an extension of this area!!
Car owners: when you see a a circle shaped sign with a red border and a picture of a car and a bike in the middle, it DOESN'T mean you can drive past it!! They're the same as the big NO ENTRY signs on Princes Street and Shandwick Place!
Learn the Highway Code properly, idiots!
7

Number1,

15/10/2008 12:21:50
Correction: Taxi tw@ts: A 4 space taxi rank means ONLY 4 taxis are permitted to wait in that space and double yellow lines 'are' not an extension of this area!!
8

Mallory,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 12:24:58
The problem can be resolved very simply. The buses should only carry folded buggies. Most of these monster eight wheel 'designer' prams are in reality used as shopping trolleys and a means to carrying nappies, creams, food, bottles, bevvy etc.

If parents want to us them then they should be charged for a separate ticket and turfed off if a wheelchair used needs the space.

9

PaulB,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 12:30:28
If they ususally travel everywhere by bus, how did they get to Annandale Street - no bus stops? They must have walked there with their prams!! Perhaps they should try it more often along Princes Street and get some exercise for a change instead of their incessant whingeing.
10

Linmal,

Livingston 15/10/2008 12:34:30
#8 - I agree with you - to a point. I don't think a pushchair user should be charged any extra. After all a wheelchair user pays absolutely nothing.

What I do think, though, is that everyone, mum with baby, person in wheelchair, disabled or able bodied, should have exercised a bit more courtesy and then you would find that no problem would have arisen in the first place. Lothian Buses could relax the ban for a trial period and passengers could try the courtesy approach for a while, its amazing what could happen and it would make everyone's journey a bit more pleasant too.

Now can we maybe start talking about things that are actually important in life?

It was boring a month ago and its still boring.
11

Skint and Appalled,

on top of old smokey 15/10/2008 12:48:05
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH - I wish these parents would stop their bleating and move on. They should direct their protests towards the ignorant parents who clearly will not move to allow a wheelchair user to board the bus.
Ban the pram/buggy completely and therefore no more problems. Parents just have to re-consider how they travel with babies, it's not difficult. All parents who had babies before prams/buggies were allowed on the bus had to - why can they!!
Another pet hate of mine is when a buggy/pram user gets on a busy bus, takes up the wheelchair space and then removes the child from the buggy/pram to sit on their knee or on a seat and leaving the buggy/pram in the space - empty!

BAN THE PRAM!!
12

Decent,

15/10/2008 12:48:08
Gawd - why hasn'y anyone worked it out yet? They NEED the big prams to carry the stuff they shoplift!
13

Mr Crisps,

Musselburgh 15/10/2008 12:52:29
Silly pram mums - bus drivers are aware of the issue already obviously. You are harassing them at their workplace merely to get yourselves publicity for a cause which is unjustified.

Oh, and a message to 'Mum-of-one Caroline Burgess, 27, from Barnton,' - I spoke to 2 bus drivers about this, they support the current company line. So don't go thinking harassing people outside their work and embarrassing them into agreeing with you means you have some form of wholesale support from the drivers.
14

Top Floor,

15/10/2008 13:00:00

One might have thought that the Council would want to intervene in this and get it sorted.

Yes, yes, I know they're not allowed to interfere in the operational side of things but they do own Lothian Buses and so are clearly not without influence.

How about a bit of leadership ?

Is that too much to ask ?

15

Dorian,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 13:02:47
This is still news?

I reckon they should make it like robot wars, with prams and wheel chairs armed with hydraulic weapons, ready to battle it out for the honour of using the space.
16

JT,

15/10/2008 13:14:59
Can we put this much effort to get a half decent bus service during and after the tram works please?? Rather than yummy mummies throwing their dolls out the pram/buggy/4x4!!
17

Number1,

15/10/2008 13:24:49
JT, you try keeping a bus on time during the tram works. I don't think you'd manage somehow!
18

Peedie Paws,

15/10/2008 13:31:09
Just ban buggies/prams & wheelchairs from buses and go back to the old style buses where the abled body got on and the rest had to lump it. It was never an issue back then, people just had to accept it and get on with it.
19

Jasbar,

15/10/2008 13:44:15
#2 Are you for real?

At the risk of binning political correctness, I'm sick fed up of campaigners sacrificing the rights of everyone else in their campaign to give preference to their preferred group. This is not building equality. It is favouritism. It's breeds prejudice. It encourages more discrimination.

While I support the rights of the disabled to live in our society as equals, this does not give them the right to render everyone's else's rights inferior.

We've seen the same in the middle east, so its not new. That the Israelis do what they do to the Palestinians, after what happened in the Holocaust, is reprehensible. They've learned nothing.

The same applies here. Until we learn to accommodate everyone EQUALLY, there will always be tensions. There will always be the superiority of the strongest. Individual rights will always be trampled on.

So Bob 2, how is it you can't understand that you don't need to have an inability to walk to be dependent on public transport? And, if you need to use public transport, aren't you entitled to that service being designed to accommodate you, the member of the public, supposedly equal?

20

Bertie The Bat,

15/10/2008 13:45:57
Shouldn't allow ANY buggies or prams on any buses.
They're a menace to society.The spaces should be left for wheelchair disabled people.
So mothers stop whinging and start walking for a change!!!!
21

Decent,

15/10/2008 13:46:22
Oh great - so now the pram ban is being compared to the holocaust! Jasbar you are a complete and utter fonny.
22

the dog,

embra 15/10/2008 14:10:36
och no again ggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
23

James (1),

15/10/2008 14:12:38
Is this story set up on a loop by the Evening News to surface every three days?
Are these mothers so thick to believe that anyone other than another mother cares one iota as to whether they can get their equivelant to a 4x4 pram on the bus.
Sorry, I apologise as I forgot for one moment that your are mothers and as such I and every other member of the public needs to look after your child. Your child, my responsibility!
24

Mallory,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 14:22:37
#10 - I agree with you - totally.

Some ideas for the 'News journos.

Publicity and investigation on the state of the Common Good Fund.

Waste in council departments - especially technology.

Effects of the economic down-turn on property and land values. Will this effect contributions to 'the trams'?

Affrodable housing - why are developers being allowed to lower the percentages of such?

Clamp-down on dangerous cyclists


continued P94




25

pofi,

15/10/2008 14:31:15
Nobody is preventing any mother getting on a bus with their children, only themselves for being so stupid as to persist in using over-sized unfoldable prams. The mothers who refuse to fold buggies or get off when a wheelchair user needs to board are the ones to blame for causing "outrage" to the revolting mums.

Some of us are mothers ourselves, and can't believe the stupidity and selfishness exhibited by the "me me me" mob.

Thanks goodness Lothian Buses aren't changing their policy. Giving the disabled access is the law- that is why wheelchair spaces were created. For wheelchairs, strangely enough.

Caroline B from "Barton" (sic- as quoted by herself on a previous forum)- more like Clermiston or Parkgrove.
26

James (1),

15/10/2008 14:38:05
#28 I think you are viewing this the wrong way! If these mothers had actually moved in the first place to let disabled people into the space RESERVED FOR THE DISABLED you would not need to campaign.
We do not owe mothers anything. You do not deserve special dispensation even though you expect it or should that be demand it?
The reason you end up with anti mothers is that they do expect special treatment yet make out they are just like anyone else.
When you say"Mothers are not expecting 'every other member of the public' to look after their children" does that mean you want to pay full price for creches at council leisure centres? I was under the impression mothers (who need their "me" time) wanted others to subsides them. Sorry my mistake.
27

elayne,

15/10/2008 14:47:46
folding buggys are cheap and,practical problem solved!
28

PaulB,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 14:49:10
Buy a fold-up buggy then it can go on the bus! Problem solved. I am sick to the back teeth of this F'in story every single day. Please stop it NOW!
29

SuperSaint,

15/10/2008 15:50:15
Kudos to EEN/Scotsman for keeping these 'stories' coming ... some of the above comments have really made my day!
30

James (1),

15/10/2008 16:01:52
#34 you are right I should stick to the story. I tried to introduce ANOTHER I'm a mother give me special treatment example and that was wrong.
So back to this I'm a mother give me special treatment story, people standing in a disable space move when a disable person gets on. Mothers on the other hand shrug and come over all confused and pathetic "what will I do now, where am I expected to go. Can they not get on the next bus?"
There is absolutely no justification for allowing mothers on board a bus with a pram. You would not attempt to force your way onto an aeroplane with such a huge junk of metal so what makes you think it is reasonable to do so on a bus?
If they were to charge you £10 to get on a bus with a pram you would soon find it was not really required anymore.
31

James (1),

15/10/2008 16:37:17
#37 There is no special treatment required to allow mothers on buses. Mother and child can get on without any problem. Just leave the huge junk of metal at home.

In your world all mothers are considerate and would move as soon as required and the buggy or pram would be folded up and put in the mothers pocket.
However in the real world we have mothers would could not careless about others as long as they are on the bus.
That is why we need Lothian Buses to tell them you are not getting on because you cause too much hassle for others.


32

Linmal,

Livingston 15/10/2008 16:38:57
FOR GOODNESS SAKE!?!?!?!?

Please can you just sort this out before the whole population of Edinburgh and surrounding districts is driven completely mad by it.

Thank you.
33

,

15/10/2008 17:02:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
34

,

15/10/2008 17:03:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
35

fed up with this same old story,

leith 15/10/2008 17:05:14
As a disabled father (and before anyone comments I hold down a substantial job and could afford a car but choose to use public transport because I live in Leith and work in the city centre) the mothers involved in this campaign need to get a reality check. To quoute the article

"parents arguing they travelled for years with prams, and would use a common sense approach by getting off if a wheelchair user needed space"


It is wholly unrealistic to expect a mother with a pram to get off the bus because a disabled person with a wheelchair decides to get on a particular bus. I have lost count of the number of times I have been verbally abused by individuals who sit in the spaces for elderly or disabled people when they have been asked to move. The worst offenders are usually females in their late twenties/early thirties and are therefore likely to be mothers themselves. Yet this is the age group that the mothers campaigning are!

What do the drivers do? Nothing - they just sit in the cab.
Are any drivers going to take the chance of being physically or verbally abused simply because they have to make a decision? No
It is far better to have a policy which is known to everyone!

Most good pram stores/mothercare etc sell folding buggies for less than £50 - I know - I bought one for my child and my partner took her all round Edinburgh on a bus!

Next topic for discussion - the lowering of moral standards. When I was young if a child travelled on public transport for free or at a reduced rate they gave up their seat and stood when the bus got busy. On the bus this morning a mother (again - sorry) with three children refused when asked if their child would stand and let an old lady sit down.
36

babies-on-buses,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 17:07:25
www.babies-on-buses.co.uk

why not sign our petition
37

,

15/10/2008 17:07:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

mumofone,

edinburgh 15/10/2008 17:48:19
I,m one of the said mothers and would like to advise you that gone of us have Prada prams nor want them! What we do have is the current recommended travel systems.
39

Old Town,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 18:29:28
Why is it after 54 years on this planet I have never seen a wheelchair on a bus ??????????????? am i missing something
40

Bob 2,

15/10/2008 18:52:42
21 Jasbar - Are you for real

Until we learn to accommodate everyone EQUALLY, there will always be tensions.

but that works both ways !


Jasbar just remember the unfortunate person in the wheelchair who cannot walk at all and relies on Buses for travelling and is stuck in it for life
41

Bob 2,

15/10/2008 18:54:57
Comment 21 JAsbar

"At the risk of binning political correctness, I'm sick fed up of campaigners sacrificing the rights of everyone else in their campaign to give preference to their preferred group. This is not building equality.

It is favouritism. It's breeds prejudice. It encourages more discrimination."

Jasbar this happens all the time, were certain groups of people get preferential treatment because of their background... this causes prejudice and encourages more discrimination."
42

Jimmy B'Umlove,

East End (Boys) 15/10/2008 20:05:51
#51 Exactly sonny boy!

It's aw the fault o wheelchair users an' disabled. It's modern day apartheid a tell ye! They want separate parking, parking oan single yellows, separate bus space, ramps instid o' stairs and aw that. Piece o' nonsense, a piece o' expensive nonsense. Ah'd love tae know how much these folk contribute tae the economy, cos per capita they must cost the state a fortune likes!
43

common sense as muck,

Leith 15/10/2008 20:19:41
Jesus, why can't the prams and buggies be allowed on. If a wheelchair user needs the space, then fold up or get off. End of story, what's all this pi**ing about for????
44

common sense as muck,

Leith 15/10/2008 20:21:22
Jesus, why can't the prams and buggies be allowed on. If a wheelchair user needs the space, then fold up or get off. End of story, what's all this pi**ing about for????
45

mumofone,

15/10/2008 20:28:05
#52 As on of the campaigners I would like to take this opportunity to let you know i,ve worked FT for the last 14 years and I manage community care for people with varying disabilities.All the the main group of campaigners do also work! What do you do for a living?
46

Jimmy B'Umlove,

East End (Boys) 15/10/2008 20:39:22
#55 weel done mumofone. That's a worthy occupation. Ah'm no really sure whit yer retort tae ma post is though.
47

,

15/10/2008 20:54:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
48

Conan the Librarian™,

15/10/2008 22:16:29
49
Old Town

Buses?
49

Brodric,

15/10/2008 23:49:50
No 43 - fed up (etc)

I agree with what you say. Especially about the lowering of moral standards.

The 'me first' brigade are quite sickening in their attitude. Having had three kids with only 3.5 years between oldest and youngest, we used to sit together on the bus on a seat for two. And when they were very small, I wouldn't allow them to stand. But remember the odd occasion when an older person was installed (happily) with my children, whilst I stood.

Its about common sense and empathy for others. There was a young woman on the bus with a very small baby on her lap (pushchair folded). An older woman got on and the bus driver called to her to stand up. Meanwhile, many able bodied people were seated. I was on crutches. I told her to sit down and suggested someone more able stand up. Fortunately someone did.

But why do they have to be asked? Bring back the conductors on buses, they did an excellent job.
50

,

16/10/2008 00:02:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
51

Jimmy B'Umlove,

East End (Boys) 16/10/2008 00:15:03
#60 engage yer brain sonny. I ken yer lonely an aw that, but that's nae excuse tae huve a downer on wimmin! Mibbee one day, if ye improve yer personality an cosmetic surgery gits a bit cheaper, ye never know, ye might git yersell a burd.

Apply yer logic tae disabled people, naebody probably cares aboot them, apart fae their faimlies. Why should they git spaces at the front o' the shoppies? No very nice, is it?

The problim wi society is everyone think their cause is mair important than the next man's! Dae away wi a the special parkin' spaces, first-come-first-served, that's a workin' model. Survival a the fittest, natural selection an aw that. If ye cannae get oot o yer car and intae the shops, then shid ye be drivin' at a?
52

The real dracula,

16/10/2008 00:50:13
Ha ha ha ha Jimmy weel done son.

I'm female 2 kids one 3 one 5 and I dont expect the world to owe them a living,,,,that's my job.

I certainly don't believe that everyone should make way for my kids on buses or in car parks.

As a parent it is my job to ensure my kids are well sorted and ajusted .

My kids are a gift not a burden and neither will they be to society.

See how wrong you can be LOL
53

stephismum,

edinburgh 16/10/2008 10:38:47
i am disgusted with some of the comments made. im a single mum of 1 and we have just lost the no 20 bus which i used all the time to get up to westside plaza. i have a serious lung condition and cant walk very far without getting out of breath and need public transport to go for my shopping ect i use a buggy even though i have only been asked once to make way for a wheelchair i was quite happy to do so even though i had a few bags of shopping.i am still happy to make way for a wheelchair but for people to say that we should walk is stupid when some of us parents are unable to do this with illnesses.
54

Linmal,

Livingston 16/10/2008 16:33:29
Again, all I will say is this, have some courtesy towards your fellow man/woman. If someone is less able than you are, offer them your seat and that especially goes for children. I am not saying that very small children should stand, but if it is safe to do so, then they should. What's wrong with sitting on mum's knee? That's what I used to do with my children when an older or less able bodied person came on the bus.

Now please, can we just try and get on with one another and talk about something more interesting?
55

wendyj,

edinburgh 28/10/2008 20:25:32
Some of the comments on this website should not have been allowed. Why should mums and dads with small children be forced to walk rather than use public transport? It is nobodys business as to why someone uses public transport. You cannot make sweeping comments without knowing if someone has a helath problem/hidden disability etc. It is public transport after all. In this day and age we should be using public transport and not all using cars! I am a mum of a 3 yr old and whilst i enjoy plenty of walks with my daughter i do like to take this bus sometimes ie when it is very cold, wet or dark or when i cannot access my car. Edinburgh sadly is not that safe a place to walk about in on dark winter afternoons and i dont always feel safe walking. The real point here is that buses can and should be able to accomodate everyone. Why should parents not be allowed to use buses? Should they be reserved for OAP's and 9-5 workers?! I am all for disabled people having adequate and equal access to buses but what is worse, a disabled person waiting at a bus stop of their choice for another bus or chucking a mum with wee one off the bus potentially in the middle of nowhere in the dark/cold/wet??! This is my objection to this rule. It is not always possible to fold a pram or may not be an option for sleeping babies. I completely agree with some of the comments and i would gladly fold my buggy or stand if able to allow a disabled or elderly person on board. However it is evident that this rule does not apply to the general population who are to quick to have a dig at mums!I have often stood or had to be the first to move when plenty of fit/younger people on bus, neither with kids or elderly who are too lazy/rude to get up!
Stop having a go at mums!
56

wendyj,

edinburgh 28/10/2008 20:29:50
To PaulB
Get a life and stop accusing mums of whinging. Your comments are rude. What gives you a god for saken right to public transport? It is public transport after all!
57

wendyj,

edinburgh 28/10/2008 20:32:46
To the real dracula>
What a sad individual you appear to be? Why are we selfish for using public, yes public transport! Or sorry, am i misunderstood? Is it just reserved for lazy people travelling to and from work? Why is is not for everyone? And your comments about children are very upsetting and concerning. I have reported you to this website which evidently no one is policing properly!

 

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