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Lib Dem option for federal UK is ruled out by Calman

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Published Date: 18 February 2009
THE Liberal Democrats suffered a setback yesterday when the commission examining devolution explicitly ruled out the party's preferred policy of federalism.
The Liberal Democrats want to see power devolved within the UK on a federal basis, giving regions and countries a much stronger role.

The party was also one of the three to set up the Calman Commission to examine ways of improving the devolution s
ettlement. But in a letter from the commission to a member of the public enquiring about federalism, a spokesman made clear the issue was not on the agenda.

"As our remit is about strengthening devolution within the Union, it would arguably be beyond our remit to propose a move to a federal structure for the UK," it said.

An SNP spokesman described the letter as a "snub" to Lib Dem leader Tavish Scott.

He said: "The Calman Commission seems to be more focused on retaining the sovereignty of Westminster than delivering a substantial new settlement for Scotland, which must be very concerning for the Lib Dems."

But Mike Rumbles, for the Liberal Democrats, said the Calman Commission had already gone further than many expected, because it was engaged now with all four main parties.

He added: "No-one ever thought that Calman alone would be able to restore a new federal structure for the whole UK, but the Commission's interim report made it very clear that it would look into the further devolution of tax powers to Holyrood. This would be a welcome and significant step."



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1

webwise,

Scotland 17/02/2009 22:23:35
Ah, the Calamity Commission makes another meaningless pronouncement.

Does anyone actually pay any attention to this now redundant Unionist talking shop?

Events have overtaken it, full fiscal autonomy was the very least it should have suggested. It now looks as though Calman will be left to fade away as Scotland moves towards constitutional reform.

Public opinion and democracy versus The Scotsman headlines - no contest.
2

Nevsky;,

Moscow 17/02/2009 23:23:23
Well that is federalism and the Flip/Flops finished for a generation, not that it was ever a serious proposal.

What now?

3

Jimmy Le Pie,

18/02/2009 00:13:26
#2 Nevsky

What about independence??
4

,

18/02/2009 00:37:03
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5

frank mcbride,

lusitania 18/02/2009 01:05:34
If this latest pronouncement of the Calman Commission doesn't bring the LDs to their senses, nothing will!

What it has, probably, precipitated is LD support for the Referendum, as Calman has also ruled out Fiscal Autonomy.

I do believe that this subterfuge is about to backfire, spectacularly, on the Unionist Alliance!!!
6

,

18/02/2009 01:14:42
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7

Edward,

18/02/2009 01:49:13
God, this gets funnier and funnier
The LibDems who were coralled by Labour into supporting the Calman commission, were under the distinct idea that the Calman creeps would actually listen to what they were proposing.Wonder if the penny will drop?
Just hope the Scottish electorate also appreciate the funny side as they realise that its the Scottish taxpayer who is paying for this Labour vanity exercise
8

,

18/02/2009 01:53:25
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9

redcliffe62,

18/02/2009 02:55:55
Brown's commission to stifle progress is a carbon copy of the talking shops and delaying tactics of the 1970's. The aim of the game is to minimise any change to the status quo.
Calman has at least been honest in that, saying in effect any discussion to change anything that is not labour policy will be shunted.
That the liberals actually think they have a say on the outcome shows crass naivety, along with a touch of self importance that their opinion is revered beyond their limiited support levels in a few country areas.
10

donald,

glasgow 18/02/2009 05:25:15
And the Lib Dums do not wish the McCalmans to discuss Independence neither
11

donald,

glasgow 18/02/2009 05:28:13
Team GB Federalism will have us right back where we started with the larger "partner", still in control. The Liberals proposed the "Federalisation" of the British Empire at the end of the 19th Century, purely to stop the Empire from disolving.
12

Colkitto,

River Clyde 18/02/2009 06:15:41
Calman is Labour controlled. Surely even the Lib-Dums could see that?
13

Angleland Isover,

18/02/2009 06:31:03
The libdums are as fikasfuk, maybe after this slap in the face they will realise which way the wind is blowing. Better to be insignificant than liebors lap dog.
14

Alex,

Ellon 18/02/2009 07:13:29
A nation shrugs .
15

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 07:52:51
You getting it now Tavish?

Labour and Brown never had or ever will have any intention of strengthening Devolution , and your opinion is as welcome as Independence
16

Number 6,

Germany 18/02/2009 08:02:15
The Calman Commission. Another prime example of unionista bungiling amatuerism. Their fruitless search for "Anything but independence" continues.

It's clear to all the Scottish people what this has been about, trying to retain as much power in Westminster as possible, regardless what the Scottish people might think.

We have seen, only yesterday, with the idiotic Murphy bumping his gums about nuclear power, that Labour etc are not interested in what we want, only what they can get out of us.

Like everything else they touch, it will collapse in a humiliating heap, having achieved absolutley nothing except further alienation of the Scottish people.

As poor old Tavish has just found out, they took the Fib-Dems along merely for the ride.
17

TWC,

18/02/2009 08:14:47
The question is what are the Libdums going to do about it, for that matter what are all the Scottish MPs and MSPs going to do about this.
Westminster are taking this right back to where we started before Wendy tried to get more power for Scotland.
I always thought she had made a mistake in creating Calman because it was a long grass situation which Westminster then demolished. Starting with Wendy, then Fiscal Autonomy, now Federalism.
Westminster now owns Calman.
18

David MacVicar,

web 18/02/2009 08:30:28
6 Cycnicus.

Exactly, if anyone did not realise it already this clearly shows the Modus Operandi of the pretendy commission.-Secure power centrally in London and subvert further devolvement of power as much as possible in line with British Labour policy to the exclusion of any detractors.

Calmans pronunciations show the same machinations of McCrone et al. It is a publicly financed exercise to lever UK state policy towards Scotland undemocratically. To subvert the democratic process.

Let me see –
Secure revenue and extraction Scotlands abundance of resources. Done.
Change border lines to thieve control of additional Scottish territory. Done.
Obfuscate completely Scotlands Revenues and expenditure. Done.
Change election/referendum rules to prevent or slow down decentralisation of power to Scotland. Done.
Calman: Secure Scotlands inferior position in the union based on UK state interests using freely available, British Labour appointed demersal pond life – ongoing. Thanfully, doomed to fail.
19

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 08:30:44
#22 danielrober might be a great idea , however Westminster has decided ,just like full Independence , or full fiscal autonomy,a these policies agreed by Libs , Tories or SNP or as in FFA all 3 agree together.
However Labour do not ,so none will get on agenda.
all that Calman will decide is planning back to Westminster to enable them to steam roll through WMD on the Clyde and Nuclear Power Stations for English required electricity.
That is the reality of voting for any Unionist Party ,
20

Ewan Randall,

18/02/2009 08:36:42
Might some say it would be worth becoming independent just to see the end of the SNP?
21

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 08:39:05
Might all of us say it would be worth the Scotsman going bust to see the end of Ewan ?
22

Alastair the First,

18/02/2009 08:45:51
24 Rodster: Yes, I agree that that is exactly what this whole charade is about. Nuclear power stations and Trident, a sneaky attempt to get them imposed on an unwilling Scotland.
23

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 08:51:19
#27 Alistair and the tradgedy is that so many Vichy scots will aid and abet the unionists and to hell with what is best for Scotland , or indeed what the overwhelming majority of individual Scots wish irrespective of their political allegiance.
We do not want WMD or Nuclaer POwer Stations in Svcotland .
Westminster wants both , so we are gonig to get them unless a number of our countrymen find a spine
24

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 08:55:57
More and more Calman looks like Labour taking powers from Scotland and handing them to David Cameron. Jim Murphy's patriarchal approach (the `I'm prepared to work with the Scottish Government until they do what we want' approach), while attempting to undermine funding in Scotland, speaks volumes. The future is Tory and now is no time to be diluting the devolution settlement. We should be bolstering it and bracing ourselves for the onslaught that is coming.
25

brownlie,

18/02/2009 09:03:40
30 daniel

Mike Rumbles and the Lib/Dems obviously did not expect much from the Calman Review if he now says that it " had gone much further than many expected". Are they now going to accept this as a "compromise"?
26

Rosscobhoy,

18/02/2009 09:10:13
#25

I think by definition Independence would have to result in the SNP(In it's present form at least) disappearing. While the party at the moment acts as a common voice for those seeking independence, i know many SNP voters who have no particular liking for the party(Other than the independence thing) or the individual MSP's.
27

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 09:12:38
#30 Danielrober , why is it that unionists must always lie and spin, is it a necessity of being one?
I nevr said the Tories had a pact on Independence with SNP .
I stated correctly that the Liberals ,Tories and SNP all agree on Full Fiscal Autonomy .
As to voting away slave trading , one man one vote and woman's votes ,it was Westminsters very opposition to democracy in all occasions that many people had to die for these very rights .
Are you suggesting that we as Scots have to die in numbers to get our democratic way?
28

TWC,

18/02/2009 09:13:47
35 Rosscobhoy

A lot of people vote SNP because Labour and the Libdems are doing nothing for Scotland.
Labour haven't stood up to Westminster on anything, well apart from Wendy and she gat shopped by one of Browns spies.
They need to come straight ot and disagree wit Westminster especially on Finances.
29

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 18/02/2009 09:16:52
Oh dear, the poor LibDums have been let down by their Labour masters again - will they ever learn.

Never mind, there is an SNP torpedo on the way that will blast Calman and his wee bunch of jokers out of the water. At least Tavish Scott did something right as he tried to wriggle out of the budget vote debacle.
30

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 09:18:38
#37 TWC you are 100% correct ,however expecting Gray , or Foulkes ,or McNeil or any of that lot to grow a spine and find some principles is akin to expecting the Rangers supporters to have a weekly collection at Ibrox for the Little sisters of the Poor
31

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 09:43:47
#40 Good Point Spook ,however Unionist Politicians NEVER, ever admit getting anything wrong or doing anything wrong.
32

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 09:45:10
#41 on the medication again?

Salmond or Brown? Come on! Be serious! Give us a real choice.

Like Clegg or Tavish ???? ROTFLMAO!!!
33

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 09:50:04
#44 What are you talking about ?
34

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 09:59:29
#48 and your point is what exactly Danielrober?
That Unionists , fedarilists have been bought and sold for English gold since 1707 ?
Tell us something we don't know .
And it seems the "Federalist Party" are about to be bought off by Westminster yet again .
You and your alter ego on here Rulesbutnotrulers will try and put some spin on this , the brutal truth is there for all to see Libs say Federalism and FFA Labour say " Get lost you insignifigant people"
You say . "ok shall I bend over so you can ram me again , no KY necessary I am used to it now?
35

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 18/02/2009 10:06:00
The Lib-Dems are unhappy that full federalism is not being considered but must be aware that the devolution settlement has already created a quasi-Federal State in everything but constitutional name.

Westminster knows only too well that the centralised, 20th Century British State is long Gone With The Wind, and any foolhardy attempt to turn the clock back can only have one inevitable outcome.
36

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 10:15:33
#51 Danielrober
Using your analogy do you want officers in your platoon that as soon as you turn your back they are doing a deal with the enemy and shooting you in the back?
Ones that are too scared to fight for the cause ?
Ones that do not have enough belief in the fighting spirit of you the ordinary guy in the trenches.
37

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 10:17:34
#51 Incidentally danielrober please stop making it so easy for me here ,people will think this is one og=f those unionist tricks .
You know the one an idiot comes on and says something stupid and the other one agrees with him or boots the arguement into touch the way I am with you today.
38

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 10:37:08
MMM I reckon the Unionists have sent for a substitute .The early shift was chewed somewhat n'est pas?
39

Number 6,

Germany 18/02/2009 10:43:04
#41 Rulesbutnot rulers : Who will you be voting for at the next GE. In case you "dont know" yet, can you tell us who you voted for last election?

Of course, I won't be holding my breath as I have yet to come across an anti-independienti who will admit to voting for one of the other parties. I wonder if you will fall into the same catagory or do you break the mould and actually have the courage of your convictions. Let's see shall we ?.
40

pehman,

sussex 18/02/2009 10:43:58

Ha ha serves them b well right, sleeping wi dogs
41

The west awake,

Argyll 18/02/2009 10:52:01
Rules - "Salmond or Brown? Come on! Be serious! Give us a real choice."

What do you mean? It was the Federalists (aka The LDs) who signed on the Calman dotted line. A course of action virtually certain to PREVENT Federalism getting a fair hearing. A more stupid way of trying to acheive a goal is hard to conceive!

On the other hand the LDs were invited (along with everyone else) to join the National Conversation, where ALL options would get a fair hearing.
It is the Calmanites who are proscriptive, not the SNP.

Although a nationalist I actually believe the Scottish people's present choice, if asked, would be for Federalism.
- Why don't you ask them?? Instead of ensuring they DON'T get asked by signing up to unholy trinity that is Calman??
42

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 10:56:42
As I said on here yesterday ,even the most rabid of the negative Unionist trolls on here is losing heart.
Everyone can see that UK is once again the "poor man of Europe"
Once again a Labour government has screwed up on the economy.
Once again the Union has failed Scotland .
The Labour Party are about to be squeezed to almost extinction.
Independence is coming ,it has been since 1967 when Winnie won Hamilton , it has been small steps , and each time the Unionists have put up a hurdle all it has done is slow us down not stopped us.
Now we are entering the final straight and while they can scream form the stands they cannot stop the inevitable.
When Scotland crosses that winning line and we once again rejoin the nations of the world .
I trust the unionists on here will embrace their country and help rebuild the Labour ,Tory and Lib Parties as true Scottish political parties with Scotland's interests at their heart not Westminster and that cesspit that is the square mile of London
43

,

18/02/2009 10:59:15
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44

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 10:59:26
#59 danielrober Pray tell us what can be more undemocratic than your Liberal Party refusing to allow any discussion or referendum on Independence??
It is the Uniono
ists that are dictators and the SNP that are the only true Democratic party in Holyrood or Westminster
45

,

18/02/2009 10:59:30
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46

TWC,

18/02/2009 11:00:55
50 Mr. Lachie Todd,

It could only be quasi federal if England also had a Barbett allowance.
YHowever Much easier to establish a Full Fiscal Autonomy where we the Scots earn what we ca and spend what we can afford.
Contribution to central joint issues as agreed by Holyrood & Westminster.
47

brownlie,

18/02/2009 11:02:53
46 daniel

Sorry, Daniel, but you appear to be contradicting yourself. In your original post you claimed that the Lib.Dems were being sensible by "searching for a compromise" but you now say that "no-one accepts a compromise, they suffer it".

Do you really think it is sensible for the Lib.Dems to be searching for a compromise which they have to suffer? Why settle for that?
48

David MacVicar,

web 18/02/2009 11:17:07
Two observations from the thread :

IMO, there is no Tory/SNP understranding on independence or much of anything. The Tories are just less threatened by independence than Labour since they do not rely whatsoever on a North British voter for power. I have noticed a softening from the Tories while clearly maintaining their pro union stance. Cameron stated he did not want to be PM of UK ‘sans’ Scotland but PM rump UK will do anyway. They seem to be preparing for all eventualities. Seems to be a mature approach at least.

No way will the SNP disband anytime soon after a referendum YES vote. There will be years of negociations with the UK rump state tc etc and the SNP will be in the best place to do that. I would say that a core SNP will remain and offshoots may emerge with challengers from a real Scottish based Tory, Labour and other eg SEP. The SNP would probably rename to something like Social Democtaic party, who knows. In any case I guess a core group of the same people would remain in something that will be the successor to the SNP. Essentially the same party/people/policies minus independence.
49

Publius,

London 18/02/2009 11:18:33
Does it matter what Calman recommends? Legislation is unlikely before the next UK general election (June 2010 at the latest. And it looks like Labour will lose this election. A Tory government would then take its time deciding what to do and perhaps not do anthing at all except stopping MPs from Scotland from voting on some parts of England-only legislation.
50

TWC,

18/02/2009 11:19:05
67 danielrober
Daniel I don't understand this post(it might be me)
Do you think the Libdems should quietly accept this Calman feedback or should they come out fighting.

I think they need to take some serious action or be ignored at the next election..... this has been their policy since I was a wee boy and I'm over 60
51

The west awake,

Argyll 18/02/2009 11:25:48
TWC - I agree completely. The LD position on this is baffling.
What do they intend to do to try and acheive their stated goal of Federalism?
It's a simple question.
52

Publius,

London 18/02/2009 11:26:17
#70 TWC

LibDem policy may have been federalism for donkey's years, but it's still undoable. You can't have a workable federal system in which on state has 83 per cent of the population.
For years and years The Liberal idea of federalism was to break England up into approximately 10 regions and make each region the equivalent of Scotland or Wales. This showed abysmal ignorance of both Scottish and English national sentiments. Since North East England rejected the idea of an elected regional assembly, the federal case has been defunct.

53

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 11:33:37
#68 David McVicar good post ,however can I just correct a mistake started by Danielrober regarding Tories and Independence , if you actually read what I said it was Tories libs and nationalists agree with full fiscal autonomy no reference to Independence with Tory compliance.

as with most things Daniel talks utter mince
54

TWC,

18/02/2009 11:41:09
73 Publius,

No good telling me I; it is the LD who have it as a policy and they also support Calman. They need to take action on their policy
They seem to disagree with you since it remains their policy.

Me I'm pro Fiscal Autonomy - clean cklear and easy.

We collect it and we decide what to do with it.
55

British flag,

18/02/2009 11:42:47
Whatever the calman report concludes you can bet your last pound England will be shafted again!
56

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 11:46:17
#78 Butchers Apron if you truly believe that you should join the SNP and help us get England free
57

The Master,

18/02/2009 11:47:47
I think the Lib Dems' "federalism" is something they pay lip service to.

I have enough respect for the party to know that their first priority is to maintain the integrity of the UK and that they'd support the status quo over anything else. But there again, that's basic orthodoxy amongst the responible mainstream parties.

Btw, don't venture near the Mather "Arc of Insolvency" thread: some Nat Faker's being truly obnoxious in my name!
58

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 18/02/2009 11:48:14
UK Federalism may be a noble idea, but practically impossible. It just won't work - England is in far too dominant a position. With the UK fast going down the tubes, and Scotland suffering more than ever, it is high time the LbDems came off the fence and supported Scottish independence. A true liberal heart would accept nothing less.

As for Calman, well it's nothing more than a talking shop deliberately set up to thwart independence (discuss and dismiss). The trouble is, they are trying to stabilise an unfair, inherently unstable devolution structure. It will all end in tears. As certain as night follows day.
59

TWC,

18/02/2009 11:51:32
78 British flag,

Can't happen with Fiscal Autonomy, if we don't have it we can't spend it. What England has it holds.
60

British flag,

18/02/2009 11:53:07
What the f==k is wrong with you people! Butchers Apron, what a small minded,ignorant, sad excuse for a human being you are! and if i were to join any political party it would be the English democrats.
61

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 18/02/2009 12:00:17
England has always had its own parliament?

It's called Westminster.
62

British flag,

18/02/2009 12:04:37
87. LOL! That is full of Scots dictating to the people of England.
63

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 12:07:06
#89 well Butchers Apron you believe that , you ain't seen nothing yet , because after the next General Election you will be dancing the sweetest of Scottish jigs ever seen.

64

British flag,

18/02/2009 12:10:11
88. Do you know why these service personnel are in the "cemetery" Because they believed in their country ALL OF IT! They died for GB.
65

Talorthane,

18/02/2009 12:12:23
"But Mike Rumbles, for the Liberal Democrats, said the Calman Commission had already gone further than many expected, because it was engaged now with all four main parties"


This all comes down to what is meant by the word "engaging".

If Mike Rumbles is happy for the Calman Commission to accept its submission, and even read it before depoisting it in the bin, then he can be very happ y with the progress that it will achieve.

However, it the commission's remit is abundandtly clear, even now for those who could not see it befire.

"As our remit is about strengthening devolution within the Union".

This whole process is an attempt to find the evidence for a predetermined outcome. There is no meaningful engagement, as that would involve the willingness to act on the submissions that may be received.

The Lib Dems may now appreciate why the SNP had no faith in the process. And they may now see that they have, once again, been used for the purposes of the Labour party.

66

British flag,

18/02/2009 12:15:10
92. Chance would be a fine thing! we have heard nothing BUT scots voices for the last 10 years,it's about time we heard a English voice.
67

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 12:15:51
Quelle Surprise !! the liberals have just been Rogered yet again by Labour.
What will they do ?
nothing of course they have no backbone ,no principal , no ideas except those given to them by their Westminster bosses
68

IainGlasgow,

18/02/2009 12:17:32
#35 #37

Post independence I think the most likely outcome would be a merger between the core of the SNP and the Liberal Democrats given the similarity in most of their policies. Maybe they could call it the Scottish Democratic Party or Something.

The Tories once fully separated from the UK party could make something of a comeback especially in some rural areas and among royalists if they oppose any moves towards becoming a republic.

As for Labour I think there is still alot of latent "old labourism" in the party that will drag it down and split it in two. Those in the party who favoured independence all along will come out of the closet given it would no longer be an issue in terms of their ideological hatred of the SNP. In the end though provided the can find the right people (i.e a another John Smith) some kind of phoenix will probably rise from its ashes perhaps minus the narcissism that pervades the part just now.
69

British flag,

18/02/2009 12:22:15
95. The only Disgusting and shameful one here is you! I've got news for you pal,unlike you, our service men and women love their country all of it,so take your bile and go shove it.
70

IainGlasgow,

18/02/2009 12:24:31
#97

The opportunity for the Lib Dems now is to turn their backs on Calman, bury the axe with the SNP and go for a three question referendum - independence, status quo or federalism. With the support of Margo MacDonald and the greens who all support independence, the referendum bill can go through and in terms of the parliamentary process to get the referendum the Tories and Labour will have been rendered irrelevant, their Calman commission a waste of time and money.
71

The west awake,

Argyll 18/02/2009 12:36:45
British Flag - "Chance would be a fine thing! we have heard nothing BUT scots voices for the last 10 years,it's about time we heard a English voice."

What beats me is why you're on a Scottish site?
72

The west awake,

Argyll 18/02/2009 12:40:41
IAIN - "The opportunity for the Lib Dems now is to turn their backs on Calman..."
- It's not lack of opportunity that has been the LDs problem. They have had plently of that offered to them before now.
It's the intelligence, vision and back-bone thing that appears to escape them.
73

Publius,

London 18/02/2009 12:47:53
#76 danielrober

In the US there are fifty states and the biggest - California - has only about 12 per cent of the US population. A federal UK would have only 4 states with the biggest - England - having about 83 per cent of the population.

This imbalance is what makes federalism unworkable for the UK.
74

Talorthane,

18/02/2009 12:52:20
#110 Publius

"This imbalance is what makes federalism unworkable for the UK."


I would say this imbalance is what makes the UK unworkable.
75

IainGlasgow,

18/02/2009 12:58:52
#108

I agree entirely and that's why they are likely to become more irrelevant. They can't even agree within their own party what Federalism means in terms of taxation and other powers. The electorate will be even less clear (about Lib Dem 'policy') which is why the Scottish Government should push for a two question referendum. The third question is just too ambiguous and will obfuscate the whole point of the referendum - what would it be? A list of additional devolved powers? (which would probably require the Secretary of State to assign under the Scotland Act)

#111

In an EU context how many layers of Federal, Confederal, Quasi Federal, etc, etc government do we really need?
76

Arfur,

18/02/2009 13:02:08
I am only half way thru the comments and that danielrobber is talking some right garbage. The idiot seems to think that the LibDums have done well here and can not see that they have been scr*wed by the party they spread their cheeks for.
77

fiferjohn,

18/02/2009 13:12:12
i want my democract right to make scotland a sovergen nation again and get rid of the f ing royal family.
and the union flag is the buthers apron as where ever it is flown blood shed follows.
78

Arfur,

18/02/2009 13:14:27
101 British flag - utter garbage. I was in the TA, 3 of my mates are in the army, one in the navy, a mate is the marines and one used to be a paratrooper. All my mates and most of the people i met in the TA are pro Scotland and against the union.
79

,

18/02/2009 13:15:47
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80

MoClana,

18/02/2009 13:16:32
Brittish Flag - i served in the RSDG'S. Is my right to self determination taken away ?

Why do you associate the union flag with an individuals right to vote for what they believe in, why do you refer back to previous wars, which were fought and won not just by English but by nearly every other nationality in the world, why do you consider that by believing in Scottish Independence, nationalists some how disregard the current suffering of the Brittish Army involved in illegal wars. I have complete sympathy with these young men and woman fighting an impossible war, it is their political masters in Westminster i would take issue with.

if you think wrapping yourself in the Union Jack makes you / us Brittish your are deluded. Let it go man, Britain is coming to an end and the empire is over.
81

British flag,

18/02/2009 13:19:29
118. They must be part of the 29% of those that are pro independence then! Funny tho' how thy'll wear the British uniform and take the British money!
82

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 13:20:39
120 Moclana the nearest Butchers Apron got to the forces was watching A Bridge Too Far on channel 4
83

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 13:21:31
#121 Butchers Apron In fact laST POLL LAST WEEKEND TO BE EXACT SHOWED 38 FOR INDPENDENCE 40% AGAINST 22 UNDECIDED
84

British flag,

18/02/2009 13:23:29
120. Funny how 51% of scots would disagree with you! not to mention our next PM David Cameron.
85

British flag,

18/02/2009 13:26:03
122. And you did what rodster,pick your nose and go down to the dole office!
86

IainGlasgow,

18/02/2009 13:29:16
#121

Where did you pluck that number from given the latest opinion poll was 38% in favour 40% against? Nominally that has been the ratio for years with a good number of opinion polls showing that figure reversed. Yes they are only opinion polls and while there are erroneous ones, the trend over all election opinion polls by accredited pollsters rarely shows significant variation from election results. Given the nature of the media though it is unlikely that any deliberate skewing of opinion poll data would point in favour of independence.

They key of course is the 22% who are undecided either way. When it comes to the vote they would either be normally distributed or they are those who like the idea of independence but are unsure about making the leap. Who knows what they'll do given a "once in a generation" opportunity?
87

The west awake,

Argyll 18/02/2009 13:33:36
109 - "You can be sure that Ming is behind it and it involves forming a lib dem pact at Westminister."

Ming certainly WAS behind it, it was even reported in the press that a deal had been struck between Brown and Campbell along the lines of PR for Westminster in return for a degree of UK-wide support for Labour.
Given that it is now Clegg/Scott and not Campbell/Stephen, it is interesting to wonder if this still holds. After all the ground has shifted since, and if the LDs conclude that Labour, even with LD support, could not deliver Westmister PR, what then? Remember also that LD support has at best stalled in the UK and appears to be going backward in Scotland. Is Scott still prepared to "take one for the team"? Especially given taking one is leaving the LDs in a precarious position north of the border.

114 - "The third question is just too ambiguous and will obfuscate the whole point of the referendum - what would it be?"

Exactly, the SNP message (even if you don't agree with it) is clear, fair and simple. Labour's and the Tory's is less simple but people sort of know will be minimal change, with no referendum.
- But the LD position, - how many people in the street know anything about it? Which is ironic, because I think, if properly explained and presented, would (currently) win the day!
Go figure.
88

Arfur,

18/02/2009 13:34:14
121 British flag ?????????????????? Last poll showed 40% for independence you fool.
89

,

18/02/2009 13:34:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
90

British flag,

18/02/2009 13:36:06
126. Like they had in Glenrothes!
91

Talorthane,

18/02/2009 13:39:09
#124 Britsh Flag

"Funny how 51% of scots would disagree with you! not to mention our next PM David Cameron."

As has been identified by others already, you are selective in your reference to polls.

The most recent poll sees this disagreement fall to only 40%, with agreement at 38%.

There are, of course, 22% undecided.

However, you mention "our next PM David Cameron".

I would suggest that, in this part of the world, it is not just the undecided 22% who will move towards the idea of independence, but the 40% who support the UK will become very soft indeed.

When it is finally clear that Brown is out, and Labour are out, and out for a long time, many people in Scotland will completely re-evaluate what the merits of UK membership are.


92

IainGlasgow,

18/02/2009 13:41:43
#130

I wouldn't want to make any appraisal of Glenrothes unless I was able to see the data on how the polling station votes compare with the (record level of) postal votes. Unfortunately that will not be possible as the documentation has gone AWOL.
93

Rodster,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 13:44:11
sorry Butchers Apron cannot stay and make you look stupid again today have to go and collect another of your unionist friends . this winter is thinning the Labour voting fodder right down
94

Davie08,

Edinburgh 18/02/2009 13:44:48
#85 BF so you would join the English Democrats? What happened? Did you get kicked out of the BNP for being too right wing?
95

IainGlasgow,

18/02/2009 13:44:55
#131

Not only that, once in power David Cameron will have the opportunity to put all of the dirty laundry the Labour Government have created out in the wind for all to see, in doing so probably adding a decade to the time it would take for Labour to be electable again.
96

The Master,

18/02/2009 13:48:47
Ignore the fakey Master (I believe he's the poster formerly known Hen Broon from the reactionary Nationalist rantings, by the way).
97

Arfur,

18/02/2009 13:50:16
130 British flag, - not been reading your Labour poodle coms have you. Don't mention Glenrothes till folk forget about the record level of postal votes (most probably from the recently deceased).
98

British flag,

18/02/2009 13:53:42
135. I have never been or would wish to join the BNP.
99

ZenBroon,

18/02/2009 13:55:12
The fundamental problem with federalism is quite simply that nobody in England wants it. Federalism could only work with a UK wide agreement. Apart from in London, the regional assemblies have been a complete failure and are soon to be abolished. There is thus virtually no interest and even less political will south of the border for a federal option. There cannot therefore be a question on federalism in any Scottish-only referendum. Just underlines the total irrelevance of the LibDems.
100

TWC,

18/02/2009 14:05:48
121 British flag,

All the ex soldiers on here disagree with you my boy.

Someone earlier talked about a pact between Labour and the LDs, if there was one group of people in the entire world I wouldn't trust it is Nu Labour.
I cringe every time I think back to the claims they made (and I believed). I am 60 now when I was young Europe was flattened from the war it has now been rebuilt Scotland has stagnated I will not trust Nu Labour again till they seperate Scottish Policies from Westminster policies.

People used to joke that when German pilots were asked why they had never bombed Port Glasgow they said they thought it had already been bombed.
101

British flag,

18/02/2009 14:12:03
140. With the greatest respect that is not westminsters fault,you had the money ,but not the will to use it wisely.
102

Publius,

London 18/02/2009 14:15:50
#119 Traquir

"In the UK there is one Behemoth nation that completely and utterly dominates the others"

Not altogether right. Proportionately more Scots and Welsh voted Labour in the last UK election than did the English. But there is a Labour government full of Scots. The same is true of the BBC. My English colleagues say that the worst injustice is having Kirsty Wark doing the lead on Newsnight.
103

Publius,

London 18/02/2009 14:20:24
#139 ZenBroon

Right on. Federalism is as dead as the dodo. It's a dead duck or dead parrot. Only the LibDems are interested in federalism. What we Scots want is respect for our national identity, not incomprehensible constitutional arrangements that bring more and more jobs for politicians.
104

fiferjohn,

18/02/2009 14:22:23
british flag
do you mean the crumbs that westminister give us back.
the strike at grangemouth showed just how much money is flowing down to westminister and we only get back a fraction.
if we are allowed to keep every thing raised in scotland and be allowed to choice to spend it like not paying millons on the olympic games and wmds or illegal wars to get old of other counrties oil we would be in far better of than we are now.
keep the union keep scotland in poverty
105

TWC,

18/02/2009 14:29:53
141 British flag,

I am not a nat and I disagree with you on funding so there is no way you will convince them of that fact.
I had hopes that some MSPs would stand up for Financial change but it now appears a forlorn hope.

I watched this country(Scotland) & the UK deteriorate and to my shame I continued to support Labour, but this time if there is no Fiscal Autonomy I will jump the fence.
You can't fool all of the people all of the time.
106

Talorthane,

18/02/2009 14:35:25
#135 IainGlasgow

"Not only that, once in power David Cameron will have the opportunity to put all of the dirty laundry the Labour Government have created out in the wind for all to see, in doing so probably adding a decade to the time it would take for Labour to be electable again."


I think that the revelations of Stella Rimington, the former MI5 chief, will become a bigger story in time.

She has claimed that the Government have been actively exaggerating terror threats to facilitate their own policies, and then using these same arguments to pursue policies unrelated to any threats.

It won't be difficult for the public to accept that a government willing to incite fear in order to get its policies through, is the type of government likely to generate irrational doomsday scenarios in order to protect its own interests.

When the debate surrounding the independence gets going for real, Westminster will begin to churn out their predictions.

Fortunately, they can now be seen to have form in misleading the public.
107

British flag,

18/02/2009 15:01:04
144. You mean the 13 billion that scotland raises each year! wouldn't keep you in toilet paper.
108

British flag,

18/02/2009 15:06:57
145."You can't fool all of the people all of the time"
But that is exactly what salmond is trying to do! He's dropped scotland having tax raising powers like a hot potatoe, i'm afraid scotland will be dependant on westminster for the forseeable future.
109

TWC,

18/02/2009 15:14:39
148 British flag
I was refering to myself having been fooled by Labour for 40 years. Like I said Fiscal Autonomy would only allow the Holyrood Parliament to spend what Scotland earns whether it is Salmond or Goldie(it certainly won't be Elmer Fudd)
You are being obtuserather thanface the fact that none of your claims and scare stories carries weight if we have control of our own money.
I would even support it if we had less money but I do want Scotland in control of it's funds.
I will evem ote for wee eck if that is what is required.
110

Number 6,

Germany Kimba, sorry "british flag" 18/02/2009 15:17:56
85# Kimba, sorry "british flag". First it's all rule Britannia yet you talk of voting for the "english democrats" (Snigger) and gaining independence for englandshire.

The change of medicine did not work then I see.

Talk about confused.
111

The west awake,

Argyll 18/02/2009 15:21:58
What powers would the LDs leave in the hands of Westminster?
The powers normally left to "host" states in similar circumstances are precisely those that I would dread to see left in British control, defence probably being the most obvious.
Perhaps the LDs should (very democratically) send us all a list and ask us to tick off which powers we would like to leave with the likes of Blair, Brown and Cameron.
- It wouldn't be a long list.

The LDs are all over the show - again!
112

,

18/02/2009 15:27:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
113

Eve,

Scotland 18/02/2009 15:49:53
If the Lib Dems have any credabilty left they should create there own version of the calum comisions. Unless they have changed their mind about the federlism.

I would say they should support the SNP thing BUT there just far to set against the independence option to pertisapate.
114

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 18/02/2009 15:54:26
What was it Samuel Johnson said about patriotism?
115

fiferjohn,

18/02/2009 15:57:24
british flag
from westministers mouth under no cricumtances must the people of scotland know that they would be one of the riches counrties in europe with a surplus of tax funds.
that is from secrect files hidden from the people and you what us to be still part of a union the has lied and deceived us.
116

 sm753,

18/02/2009 16:20:31
156

"the people of scotland know that they would be one of the riches counrties in europe with a surplus of tax funds."

No they don't and no they wouldn't.

GERS is now produced under SNP management and there are independent reports like

http://tpa.typepad.com/home/files/unequal_shares_the_barnett_formula.pdf

Now you can argue back and forward whether the answer is a couple of billion plus or minus - the evidence is mostly minus - so clearly there is no magic tax / oil "surplus" which is going astray.

Which means our welfare state is already eating up our oil revenue.

Which means there will never be a magic "oil fund".

Which means "independence", purely on the fiscal numbers, is pointless.

Next!
117

TWC,

18/02/2009 16:21:05
155 Mr. Lachie Todd,

What did Samuel Jonson say about Scotland.
118

Shredder,

18/02/2009 16:45:32
#157: what a post! Is smee right, or is smee right!
119

fiferjohn,

18/02/2009 16:46:52
sm735
so why hide documents like the mccrone report and other cabinet papers relaiting to scotland and the oil if scotland was going to worse off.
westminister have to be straight about these documents and then people can make an informed choice of what they want which is a government that dosn't give a t**s adout scotland really or a government with puts scotland first and that can be only holyrood with all the powers of a proper counrty not a parish council
120

fiferjohn,

18/02/2009 16:50:59
shredder check out the big lie on the net and you will see the true fiscal facts done by someone thats knows what they are talking about it might be a year behind but it takes that long to get every thing .
121

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 18/02/2009 17:04:45
160 Not really as in the famous McCrone report that SM753 was trying to "Debunk" is famous in it's own right.

Why was it made secret, well I think the most simple reason is that McCrone voiced in private in his paper that Scotland would not be a basket case, which contradicted the unionists arguements then and now.

If this paper was released to the public at the time, it would have been politically damaging to those arguements.

As for predicting what an Independent Scotland would fiscally look like by using GERS is always unreliable because of the amount of guess work.

GERS was produced by Ian Laing as a political weapon, it was then used against the SNP and the independence argument as a political weapon.

The latest version has been opened up and it's methodology challenged and probe, a lot of it is still guess work, it can be used to give a picture of best guess fiscal position in the union.

Since it has been opened up to scrutiny the same folk who used it, now cry with derision and fury over it's contents.

As an old saying goes be careful what you wish for.
122

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 18/02/2009 17:16:38
On the story, the liberals have been boxed in by Calman, they were warned about this. They seemed to have entered into Calman with an honest hope that federalism would get a fair hearing.

Obviously, those warnings from the SNP and others about Calman being a stalling tactic are painfully obvious.
123

Observer,,

Glasgow 18/02/2009 17:28:03
Obviously the Calman circus will rule out federalism, their job is to contain devolution, and preferably to minimise it. That's what you get when you put Westminster in charge of determining what it is that the Scottish people want, as opposed to actually asking them.
124

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 18/02/2009 17:28:47
157 SM753 quote

"Which means "independence", purely on the fiscal numbers, is pointless."

I agree unfortunately this arguement has the cornerstone of the unionism since Adam was a laddie.

It's obviously that Calman will not recommend Federalism, so are the Libdems going to consider a hari-kiri swap to get a third option on the ballot paper?
125

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 18/02/2009 17:29:44
165 Oh stop it you old cynic!
126

British flag,

18/02/2009 17:31:02
156. That is the most stupid thing said on this thread today! Scotland contributes 13 billion to westminster,and gets 33 billion back!
127

TWC,

18/02/2009 17:44:43
168 British flag,

No it isn't Scotland has been ripped off for years.
It is for this reason that any kind of fiscal Autonomy is being resisted. Now that's from a Unionist.
This is the reason that the Nats are winning this arguement. Union supporters are Claiming Scotland is subsidised then refusing Fiscal Autonomy which would expose the Nats at on fell swoop if it were true. The union is not for finandcial reasons but those financial arguements will result in the break up.

128

livilion,

livingston 18/02/2009 17:46:36
158 TWC,18/02/2009 16:21:05
155 Mr. Lachie Todd,

What did Samuel Jonson say about Scotland.

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides with the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

Blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children.

And I will strike down upon those with great vengeance and with furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers.
And you will know that my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
129

TWC,

18/02/2009 17:47:26
Remember the now infaous attempts to manipulate the oil figures in the 70s I have been waiting for the Labour answers to these papers since 2006.

I ask today is what the Civil Sernvants did Legal if not why are they still in the Civil Service not Gaol.
130

bill-alba,

fife 18/02/2009 17:49:20
#butchers aprin, where oh where do you get your ideas from..you should spend more time on the crossofstgeorge website where your views and idiocy will be applauded..fyi..I was in the RN when I was going through security clearance was asked by MI6 what my politics were and I informed them I was a Scottish nationalist...still got clearance surprisingly and I went into the "british navy" because that was all the choice there was Scotland not being independent and the british money I took as wages I would think the Scottish taxpayer had some input to that but I won't hold my breath for you to agree to that as we don't make or produce anything in Scotland so the money can only have come from England.
131

TWC,

18/02/2009 17:51:12
170 livilion,

I'm paraphrasing but I think it was the best part of Scotland was the road to England
132

livilion,

livingston 18/02/2009 18:03:51
168 British flag
Of course she does, us silly Scots what are we like?

If only you had been able to us 300 years ago that the reason for union with England was not about Scotland handing over her governance to a historically belligerent foreign power, but simply so that Whitehall could shower us Scots with English cash, the bother you could've saved all concerned.

Now you've cleared that up, who these days needs the UK?
Britain is a busted flush, so why don't we Brits all just become part of a United States of Europe, and get even more money thrown at all of us, isn't that the same argument?
133

livilion,

livingston 18/02/2009 18:10:43
173 TWC,
Nah, I liked mine better.
Have you driven the roads to England?
Yesterday I drove to the Sabhal Mor Ostaig near Armadale on Skye, now that must be up there on anyone's list of the best bits of Scotland.
134

The Master,

18/02/2009 18:11:18
169 TWC: you can't seriously believe the Nats are "winning the argument"!

Ordinary punters don't begin to understand the economic case, but what they do hear is that many (including the majority of politicians in Scotland) refuse to take the so called case for separation seriously.

Even if we are to believe the Nats' desperate attempts ot paint a situation in which separation would be worthwhile, it's only known only too well that we'll be in a completely different ball game once the oil revenues eventually run out.
135

fiferjohn,

18/02/2009 18:26:15
the master
oil is only one part of it and there is another 40 years in the notrh sea and there is oil in the west coast that is why 3 counrties are fighting over rockall.
and simple economics when some is getting lest so the price goes up.
if on the same reasonoing you have got with scotland the your saying iraq is the same that is why britain and america are there they are to poor because of their oil.
were in there to stop anybody else getting it just like westminister are doing to scotland thats the truth
136

British flag,

18/02/2009 18:27:58
174. Because 90% of people in the UK would tell Europe where to go!
137

livilion,

livingston 18/02/2009 18:36:35
176 The Master
Have you taken time to wonder what will become of England when Scotland's oil runs out?

I remember the 60s and 70s before the oil bailed out Thatcher's regime:
Governments going cap in hand begging the US for handouts, then when that dried up going cap in hand to the IMF for handouts.

Powercuts and blackouts, shopping by candlelight, queuing at Safeways' instore bakery for our bread ration, dad pouring whisky into the petrol tank to get to his three day week job, rubbish piled high in the streets uncollected for weeks, and not being able to bury granda when he passed away.

In case you are too young to remember, that was when we had an iron, steel and metals industry, a fishing fleet, hundreds of mines, a British car, van, bus and truck industry, the worlds biggest bike manufacturers, textiles, railway technology leaders and Clydebuilt ships and engineers all over the globe, which now are only fading memories for museums.

So now that the oil lotto win has been pawned to the banks and all the eggs put into that one glitzy pinstriped basket, never mind Scotland without oil money, what do you reckon for Great Britain's prospects ?
138

livilion,

livingston 18/02/2009 18:38:47
179 British flag
90% of people in the UK are English.
So what's so different in Scots telling the UK where to go?
139

British flag,

18/02/2009 18:43:58
181. You have just said it! 10% against 90%!
140

The Master,

18/02/2009 18:47:44
#180 livilion: I take your point about the overall effect of Britain when the oil runs out, but surely most will come to the view that the effects of lack of oil would be all the more harsh in a separatist Scotland (which, with its woefully low tax base, is in no way comparable to rich small countries such as Switzerland).
141

livilion,

livingston 18/02/2009 19:00:27
182 British flag
Thankyou, we can see that British interests are not sympathetic to Scottish interests.

Otherwise known as the other side of the West Lothian Question!

We heard recently that David Cameron is concerned that 10 English votes to every Scottish vote at Westminster is just so unfair to England, so maybe it's time we left you to play by yourselves to save you further upset.


142

livilion,

livingston 18/02/2009 19:09:00
183 The Master
Perhaps, but history and bitter experience has taught us that when things get tight at Whitehall Scottish interests are expendable, if considered at all.
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1978/mar/21/north-sea-oil

We are far away from London and simply don't have enough voting power to counter the vested interests of those within commuting distance of the Metropolis.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5729048.ece
143

 sm753,

18/02/2009 19:16:10
161

"sm735
so why hide documents like the mccrone report and other cabinet papers relaiting to scotland and the oil if scotland was going to worse off."

http://nat-mythbusting.blogspot.com/2009/02/mccrone-myth-refuted.html

As you will see, the McCrone paper contains no facts, only forecasts and opinions.

And every one of the key forecasts was a matter of public record since 1974-75.

So what was being "hidden", again?

144

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 18/02/2009 19:25:13
#186 Ploughmans lunch

"Calamity Commission"

- has a ring to it, maybe it will take on!
145

IainGlasgow,

18/02/2009 19:31:12
#173

Wasn't it "There is no nobler path for a Scotchman to follow that the high road that leads to England"?
146

 sm753,

18/02/2009 19:33:36
174

"If only you had been able to us 300 years ago that the reason for union with England was not about Scotland handing over her governance to a historically belligerent foreign power,"

No it wasn't.

It was about formalising and regularising the existing informal participation of Scotland with England in a common governance, defence and free trade area. While there was a war on.

Do you actually have any grasp of history at all?
147

livilion,

livingston 18/02/2009 19:35:11
187 sm753
Here's what that SNP mouthpiece the Daily Telegraph had to say on the subject:

North Sea oil bonanza 'played down'

By Ben Fenton
23 Jan 2006

"Civil servants advised ministers to hide the true scale of Britain's North Sea oil riches and drag out proposed devolution arrangements to prevent Scotland breaking away from the United Kingdom..."

read the article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1508553/North-Sea-oil-bonanza-%27played-down%27.html

McCrone said in 1975:
"Even after its discovery the full significance of North Sea oil was not immediately apparent and it still remains in large measure disguised from the Scottish public...
...So far all that Minister have said is that they expect North Sea oil to be yielding 70-100m. tons of oil per annum by 1980 and that on that basis the Government revenue from rent and royalties from the whole of the Continental Shelf including the gas fields in the southern sector may be of the order of £100m. per annum at that time..."

In fact it was over 200 times what 'the minister' admitted to, Thatcher was trousering over £20bn a year at peak production and by contrast wouldn't grant £10m so save Hampden park.
148

 sm753,

18/02/2009 19:40:58
180

"So now that the oil lotto win has been pawned to the banks and all the eggs put into that one glitzy pinstriped basket, never mind Scotland without oil money, what do you reckon for Great Britain's prospects ?"

How interesting.

Possibly without knowing it, you are acknowledging that the oil - or at least the cheap, easy-to-produce half of it - is gone.

Which somewhat kyboshes the "independence" economic case.
149

livilion,

livingston 18/02/2009 19:46:55
190 sm753
So not about locking the back door against the catholic French and Spanish invading via Scotland while England was already getting her nose rubbed in the dirt by the Dutch?
http://video.stv.tv/bc/scotland-history-20080530-bribery-and-corruption-surrounding-the-union/

And nothing to do with the century of warfare across the Scottish border including Cromwell's excursion into Scotland during the 'Glorious Revolution' of the 'English' Civil War?
http://www.british-civil-wars.co.uk/

Ah well, you live and learn.
I take it you will be taking the appropriate measures to have the history books re-written?
150

British flag,

18/02/2009 19:52:42
186. The union flag is the flag of GB and N.I hence "British flag"! But you already know this,your just out to sh-t stir.
151

British flag,

18/02/2009 19:54:30
191. That was 3 years ago,a lot has changed and most of the oil has gone.
152

 sm753,

18/02/2009 20:05:56
193

"So not about locking the back door against the catholic French and Spanish invading via Scotland"

Yes, exactly that. Something which was heartily welcomed by many Scots at the time, who preferred Episcopalian-but-Protestant England to Catholic France or Spain.

"And nothing to do with the century of warfare across the Scottish border including Cromwell's excursion into Scotland during the 'Glorious Revolution' of the 'English' Civil War?

And again yes, everything to do with that. Many Scots recognised the sense of an honourable, peaceful and negotiated Union with the nation we already shared a monarch with, and which Scotland could no longer compete with in military, naval or commercial terms.

Please let me know which books you get your history from so I can warn my 4-year-old to avoid them.
153

livilion,

livingston 18/02/2009 20:17:41
196 sm753
>>Please let me know which books you get your history from so I can warn my 4-year-old to avoid them.<<

Happy to re-paste my links, you can ask your 4 year old how to use them:

http://video.stv.tv/bc/scotland-history-20080530-bribery-and-corruption-surrounding-the-union/

http://www.british-civil-wars.co.uk/

By 'many Scots' I take it you don't include those who rioted in the streets who had to be subdued by force, those who took an army as far as Derby to make their views known in London or those Scottish majority MPs who petitioned parliament in Westminster to repeal the Treaty of Union which put Scots and Scotland at great disadvantage in the new United Kingdom.
154

livilion,

livingston 18/02/2009 20:21:44
195 British flag
No it hasn't:

Truth, Lies, Oil and Scotland - Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIOBG1AVUd8

Truth, Lies, Oil and Scotland - Part 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTHnknn0ajg&feature=related
155

 sm753,

18/02/2009 20:24:20
197

Ohhh, "links"!

http://www.parliament.uk/actofunion/09_bribery.html

Or perhaps you'd like to try an actual book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Scotland-Union-1707-2007-T-M-Devine/dp/0748635424/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234988883&sr=1-1

But never mind. You carry on getting your history from the lid of your shortbread tin.
156

 sm753,

18/02/2009 20:25:44
198

I think you will find that every single point about McCrone is dealt with at

http://nat-mythbusting.blogspot.com/2009/02/mccrone-myth-refuted.html

Do let me know (at my blog) if you find one that isn't.
157

livilion,

livingston 18/02/2009 20:29:57
192 sm753,
Possibly without knowing it, you are acknowledging that the oil - or at least England's half of it - is gone.

Which somewhat kyboshes the "independence" economic case, ie will England be able to remain outside of the Eurozone without Scotland and her oil to go guarantor for her?
158

livilion,

livingston 18/02/2009 20:33:16
199 sm753
With someone of your towering intellect I'm not sure that I could find a book that you could colour in by yourself, that's why I select links with pictures and spoken narrative to help you.
159

Brian Hill,

18/02/2009 20:39:33
Looks like Calman will finally say:

As Devolution has so worked we are pleased to announce that we are now able to return the following powers to Westminster.....
160

 sm753,

18/02/2009 20:40:32
201

"Which somewhat kyboshes the "independence" economic case, ie will England be able to remain outside of the Eurozone without Scotland and her oil to go guarantor for her?"

Hilarious.

You appear to be entirely ignorant of the fact that the non-Scottish bit of the UK has a mixed economy 10 times the size of Scotland, and will do very well regardless.

Which is why I am going to retire somewhere down there with decent pubs, beer and trees, regardless of what happens to Scotland.
161

Eve,

Scotland 18/02/2009 20:49:08
#203 Brian Hill: Oh dear! Do you really think they would try that one.

I know the union is unfair BUT would they really be that blatently crule. Is to take away powers and leave the parelment with les power when it really needs more.
162

Eve,

Scotland 18/02/2009 21:03:20
#200 sm753: Oh that's so sad and very reveling about the SM753 caricter.
163

frank mcbride,

lusitania 18/02/2009 21:06:46
#sm753.

During the European Election will you continue to be sm753, or will you revert to a war-footing moniker of AM2?
164

Eve,

Scotland 18/02/2009 21:19:46
#208 Wardog*: Some people just like dicting to others.

There desperate to be right and desperate to have control over someone or a group of indavials. Something like a power hold crave, Gorden Brown appearrs to have it.

Well thats my theroy on these types of indvidauls.
165

 sm753,

18/02/2009 21:25:56
208

"Atlast we have the true trolling nature of smee, he doesn't care what happens in Scotland, he doesn't even plan to live here for Christ sakes."

He plans to live here for at least the next 14 years.

Oooo, does that somehow make me "not Scottish enough"?

Please enlighten us on your ideas on what makes someone "Scottish". Blood? Soil? Kilt? Accent?
166

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 18/02/2009 22:00:06
Just what will Calman suggest?

More of the same, I reckon, and more of the same to me includes taking powers away from the Scottish parliament.

Where is the National Conversation by the way?
167

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 18/02/2009 22:07:30
Smee. Are you planning a retirement back to the land of your birth?

Whatever. You are obviously being careful not to leave we broon deposits on your next doorstep.
168

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 18/02/2009 23:02:29
Well that's home rule ruled out and federal government ruled out. So what have we got left and why has it taken £100,000's to figure out the "right" answer?

 

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