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What now, Gordon?

Prime Minister in deep trouble after local election disaster

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Published Date: 03 May 2008
GORDON Brown is today under intense pressure to work out how to return Labour to winning ways after presiding over the party's worst local election results in 40 years.
The scale of the electoral collapse surpassed even Labour's most private fears. A total of 331 Labour council seats, and nine councils, were lost as the party slumped behind the Liberal Democrats in the popularity stakes.

Even more worrying was th
e electorate's apparent willingness to embrace the sharp-suited style of David Cameron. Under his leadership, the Conservatives seized 44 per cent of the vote – in a general election enough to propel him into 10 Downing Street and provide a Commons majority of 138.

As commentators compared the results to the dark days of Labour under Michael Foot, the Prime Minister took the unusual step of spending the weekend at Chequers.

On taking power last summer, he promised to dispense with the stately home – once a convalescent home for injured army officers – as a weekend retreat. Instead it was to be reserved for brainstorming sessions – precisely what Labour MPs are now demanding as they smell defeat at the next general election.

This weekend, as Mr Brown looks to reconnect with his party and the public, the similarity between the Tories' success under Mr Cameron and Labour's rise to power under Tony Blair will not have gone unnoticed.

Back in 1995, the then Labour leader opened up a massive lead over John Major's Tories in the local elections. Two years later he led Labour to a landslide victory.

Mr Brown, who went to bed on Thursday night rather than witness Labour's dire performance unfold on television, will seek to regain the initiative with a "mini Queen's Speech" of policy initiatives within the next couple of weeks.

But as Tony Travers, a politics expert at the London School of Economics, told The Scotsman: "There is no point making a Queen's Speech unless you have something to put in it.

"As Alastair Campbell used to say, there has got to be a narrative. But first they have got to work out what the story is, and then tell it consistently in a way the public understands."

Around him, Mr Brown is hearing different advice. His chief whip, Geoff Hoon, claimed there was "no crisis". But every Labour MP contacted by The Scotsman yesterday called for him to "get back to basics" and reconnect with the party's core support. Great damage had been done by the 10p tax fiasco and the failure to appreciate the difficulties caused by soaring food and fuel bills, they said.

They realised they had just witnessed a Labour performance not seen since the "meltdown" of 1968 and surpassing even Labour's unpopularity in the early 1980s.

"We have got to relate to the day-to-day, bread-and-butter issues that affect people's lives," said David Blunkett, the former home secretary.

Senior Labour back-bencher Derek Wyatt turned the global economic crisis – Mr Brown's usual get-out clause – on its head when he declared that his parliamentary seat, with a majority of 79, was already "subprime". He said: "How many more Northern Rocks can there be? Look at the situation with fuel prices, the non-doms and the 10p tax band. Gordon has committed spectacular own-goals and the public is punishing him for it."

Mr Brown had begun his day with a sombre television interview in which he vowed to "learn the lessons" from the scale of the defeat.

Attempting to strike a note of contrition as he spoke from inside Downing Street, he said: "It's clear to me that this has been a disappointing night, indeed a bad night, for Labour. We have lessons to learn from that.

"We will learn the lessons. We will reflect on what has happened and then we will move forward."

His mood contrasted with that of Mr Cameron, who took to the skies for a whistle-stop tour of areas where the Tories had seized power, from the Vale of Glamorgan in Wales to Bury in Greater Manchester. "This is a big moment for the Conservative Party. This is a big step forward," he said.

Nick Clegg, the Lib Dem leader, also saw success, with the capture of 25 per cent of votes and winning councils such as Sheffield, Hull and Burnley.

When Labour lost control of former strongholds such as Reading, which it had held for 21 years, Mr Brown's critics took to the airwaves. Labour backbencher Ian Gibson said Mr Brown had until the autumn party conference to prove he could lead the party to victory.

But Andy Slaughter, Labour MP for Hammersmith and Fulham, said: "People are harsh with Gordon, particularly because they say this is the job he wanted for such a long time and should have been prepared for. When you look at his performance in opposition and in government over 20 years, we are clearly not seeing him at his best. But we know the potential is there and we know he can do it."

'He needs a national disaster to save him'

MAX CLIFFORD, PR GURU: "The problem has been that he has the image of being very strong and decisive man. But the authority that he had almost disappeared overnight at that "should we go for election, should we not?" episode. He dithered and dallied and that does not go down well with the British public.

"He had this image as the most successful chancellor, the man who had that quiet strength and authority.

Now the Conservatives, in their attacks on him, call him a ditherer.

"The British love someone who is strong and decisive, even if it's not someone they necessarily agree with: look at Maggie Thatcher. To be honest with you, the best thing that could happen to him is a national disaster – something that needs his attention, where he goes in and sorts it out and stamps his authority.

"It's a long uphill struggle otherwise, after a very bad start. But that's not to say it can't be turned around."

'Brown is the PM, the buck stops with him'

GEOFF MARTIN, CAMPAIGN GROUP LONDON HEALTH EMERGENCY: "I think time is running out for Gordon Brown. I think what he needs to do is send out urgent and clear messages to the Labour heartland that he does understand why people are so angry and bitterly disappointed.

"If he doesn't do that, and do it quickly, I think the next general election is quickly slipping away. He is the leader and the prime minister and the buck stops with him.

"Probably for the first time in a generation, Labour voters are switching directly to the Tories. I don't think I have seen that since Margaret Thatcher was in power. If I was in the Labour high command I would be deeply worried.

"I think the Labour government has got to re-engage its core support, such as public sector workers. The fact some core supporters think David Cameron is a better bet should be ringing alarm bells through Downing Street."


'We need to remind people of the good'

ANNE BEGG, LABOUR MP FOR ABERDEEN SOUTH: "We have done very badly. But I think people may not be quite as happy when they see what they have voted for.

"If you look at what happened in Aberdeen, Labour lost control of the council five years ago. Now the council appears to be in financial meltdown.

"There is a danger that sometimes you might think it's time to give the other lot a chance. That may not necessarily be the best idea, but it takes some time for people to realise.

"What happened over the 10p income tax is quite illustrative. I had people over 65 phoning my office saying 'why are you doubling my tax?' when in fact they will be better off as a result of the changes, as they will be taken out of the tax system altogether.

"Once you have been in government for a long time, people forget the good things you have done. We need to remind them of that."

'I think it's possible to turn things round'

KATY CLARK, LABOUR MP FOR AYRSHIRE NORTH AND ARRAN: "I think we have got to refocus on our core voters and win back the people we lost over Iraq. We have got to get out of Iraq as soon as possible and make it history.
"I think we have got to look to our core voters. I think we should enable councils to invest in a massive programme of council-house building. We have got to go back to basics and deliver for our people. In my view, we need a tax system – following on from what happened in the 10p tax issue – which lifts thousands on low incomes out of tax.

"We need to refocus, with a significant increase in child benefit, the minimum wage and the state pension. If we do that and we behave as Labour and Gordon Brown behaves as Labour Prime Minister, we will definitely win a fourth term.

"I think it's very, very possible to turn things round if we do the right things now. I don't believe that people don't want a Labour government. I believe they don't want a New Labour government."

GORDON BANKS, LABOUR MP FOR OCHIL AND SOUTH PERTHSHIRE: "We have got to wake up and understand that people don't have the same relationship with the Labour party now that they have had since 1997.

"Policy is the glue that will bind the Labour party together and bind people to the Labour Party. The carry-on over the 10p tax is a good example. We implemented the policy and, as everybody is now recognising, it had an unnecessary effect. It would have been much better to address that at the time, and that is something the Prime Minister and Chancellor are saying themselves.

"We have a moral duty to put it right and I have every hope and belief that we can. Two years is a long time in politics, as many people keep saying. I think there is still ample time for us to get things right. But we have to show the electorate we are listening to what they said to us on Thursday night. But it's what they have been saying to us in their mailbags for some time."

'PM must take wider range of advice'

MICHAEL CONNARTY, LABOUR MP FOR LINLITHGOW & EAST FALKIRK: "The first thing he (Gordon Brown] should do is take some time for reflection in a quiet environment and speak to a wider range of people than he has as far been asking for advice. This means not just his confidantes or those left over from the Blair era.

"These results point to the worst environment that any mid-term government has ever seen, therefore he has to learn the lessons. He has been listening to people lately after things went wrong. He needs to do this in the initial stages of decision making.

"I still think he is the person with the most solid record and good grasp of what needs to be done to improve the quality of life for the people of this country.

"It is not a personality issue. He has the style of a chancellor and will be a good prime minister. That transition is not easy."












Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 May 2008 12:36 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Labour Party
 
1

Alfred E. Neuman,

03/05/2008 00:42:41
Cheery-bye dear man!

Taxing my fuel, food, house, anything and everything that is essential to me to redictrubte this confiscated wealth to union apes.

My heart bleeds!
2

Angus Ogg,

03/05/2008 00:43:23

What Now For Gordon Brown ?

Well in Tony Blairs last sentence of his final speech in the House of Commons, the last two words from Blair were....

"The End"

Seems to fit well for Gordon Brown as well.
3

Alfred E. Neuman,

03/05/2008 00:47:16
3 Traquir... by your logic.

The SNP is imposed on the majority of the people of Scotland who do not want them. There is no logic in your assertion.

You really need to learn how to think.
4

Alfred E. Neuman,

03/05/2008 00:56:03
5 Traquir

You say the majority of the Scottish population does nto want Conservative rule, you suggest Scotland rebels and refuses to be governed by Tories.

We also know the majority of the Scottish population does not want SNP rule, you suggest Scotland should rebel against the SNP because their government is not bona fide.

You do need to learn how to think. You are a typical Democracy and freedom hating Nat.
5

Angus Ogg,

03/05/2008 00:57:26
#5, Traquir,

The only question tonight is:-

1. Will Gordon Brown resign before the General Election ? or,

2. Will the marginal Labour MP's sack him before the next General Election ?
6

Alfred E. Neuman,

03/05/2008 01:09:55
8 Tranquir

Scotland has self-dermined that is wants to form a Union with England, Wales and Northern Island. Why do you persist in your pathetic and ill-informed rants if you believe in democracy?
7

Alfred E. Neuman,

03/05/2008 01:18:37
11 Traquir

Ask Alex Salmond, he publicly accepted at the SNP conference in 1998 that the people of Scotland clearly did want the Union or they would have voted SNP.

So it is beyond doubt, you really are a cracker.
8

Lastsocialist,

Post-Union Socialist Phalanstery 03/05/2008 01:24:52
The British democratic system is clearly headed for some kind of absolute political meltdown. Not surprising given that the vast majority of our 'leaders' are sheep, spineless functionaries with zero capacity for independent rational action. Break the Union, break the Monarchy, destroy the existing political class, destroy all forms of commercial spectacular domination and factitious liberal 'individualism'. Resist the State, resist all forms of alienated labour, servile dependence on united states overproductivity, racially-driven resistance to european integration etc - at least then you might have a chance of preventing pimms-swilling hubristic bourgeois monkeys like the new mayor of london getting a look-in. Otherwise, your servitude is deserved.
9

Hubert Farnsworth,

03/05/2008 01:33:57
Man with jacket hanging on shoogelly nail said:

"He has the style of a chancellor and will be a good prime minister."

As Chancellor he sold the family silver, robbed the poor to feed the rich and put the nation into hock, to ingratiate himself with Tony - the fair weather PM.

And encouraged individuals to do likewise.

Now the bills must be paid and the buck stops at his desk...He is doomed!

10

Stepford Nat,

03/05/2008 02:05:13
Hs ha ha ha ha! Even behind the Lib dems - ha ha ha!

www.snp.org - we put the oats in gloats
11

Edward,

03/05/2008 02:15:12
#13
I agree the whole political scene is heading for meltdown, its whats needed.
We now have a Labour UK government who has ignored teh wishes of the people of Scotland, now having to deal with a Scottish Government thats not being ruled by their party, but by a party that they dislike intensely and go out of there way now to be antagonistic against. They now have a London Assembley, which is now lead by a Mayor who is conservative. England has shown that it no longer trusts Labour and its a certainty that when ever the next General Election is called, Labour will loose.
The question that every man and woman in Scotland should be asking themselves is this. Scotland has the chance to become Independent, should we take that next step?
12

Edward,

03/05/2008 02:30:41
With the swing to the tories, its reckoned that there is now at least 100 concerned Labour MP's thinking about what needs to be done to change this.
Gordon Brown is going to spend the weekend pondering what he needs to do to bring it around
You can bet that 100 plus Labour MP's are doing exactly the same. The outcome could be quite bloody with a best case senario for a demand that a section of the cabinet be replaced, that section being the Scottish MP's that are cabinet members, such as Alistair Darling. Worst case for Brown is that he is also asked to step down
Make no mistake the knives are being sharpened this weekend. Alistair Darling is being held to blame for a bumbling management of the economy. Brown is being blamed for the 10p fiasco. There are many English Labour MP's who feel that Scotland is getting more favours than it deserves (incorrect of course, but thats what the MP's are getting it in the neck from the constituents).
If this were to happen and Brown's position is weakened, the Wendy Alexander's crutch or controller is gone, she will no longer have family or freind in Westminster. With that the Labour appointed commission so called come review could take an interesting twist!
13

Stepford Nat,

03/05/2008 02:33:59
17 Edward

Very well put (and I think I love you, although I'm not lonely or bored or wishing I had company, I just think I identify with you)

www.snp.org - take the next step, like Edward says
14

Stepford Nat,

03/05/2008 02:37:44
18 Edward

Can you just confirm whether you are a native speaker of the british language? BTW, it's ok to admkit you've had a few bevvies...

www.snp.org - the "high" in highlanders!
15

,

03/05/2008 02:41:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
16

Edward,

03/05/2008 02:45:42
I think one of the defining moments on the day before the local elections in England, was when Gordon Brown was interviewed on the Today program by John Humphrys
When asked if he regreted dropping the 10p tax. Gordon Brown trotted out the same stubborn remark that the rate of tax had dropped from 22p to 20p. He still didnt get it that for those on low pay were actually going to pay an additional 10p
17

Edward,

03/05/2008 02:48:34
#20 Stepford Nat
Yes I can confirm that I am indeed a native speaker of the British Languague, allthough at times it can be difficult to believe as at time brain goes faster than thought or typoing control!
18

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 03/05/2008 02:49:37
They're ***ked, aren't they.
19

Stepford Nat,

03/05/2008 02:54:36
23 Ed

My brain think somethimes that like.

www.snp.org - aah, that was a good late night sh!t, It took a weight off my mind. I'll sleep well now ;-)))
20

subrosa,

03/05/2008 02:54:57
# 24 doonhammer

They are indeed. Now that David Cameron's got London they'll never get out of the mess.
21

a proud doonhamer,

03/05/2008 03:00:03
#26 subrosa

Yeah, and I like tories
22

Socrates2,

03/05/2008 03:21:34
iraq -- why did no scottish labour MP vote for an Inquiry into the Iraq War
23

R Corbett,

Robert Corbett (Edinburgh) 03/05/2008 03:31:02
Gordon Brown's been treated lightly by the media. They've not made his head into a turnip or a lightbulb.
24

glassbenmhor,

03/05/2008 03:34:16
The veranda doors are being closed,

The occupants of the room feel chill now,

and the last rays of the sun fall.

ROOM WITH A UNION VIEW
25

glassbenmhor,

03/05/2008 03:35:45
The latest game show,

FIND A LIBERAL
26

glassbenmhor,

03/05/2008 03:38:11
National Geographic

TO FIND A BY-PASS
27

R Corbett,

Robert Corbett (Edinburgh) 03/05/2008 03:59:22
#32 Glassblower - you talk in riddles mate. Load of piddle.

- Love the quote from PR Expert Max Clifford PR Guru: "Gordon needs a disaster"

- Gordon Brown IS a disaster
28

W Smith,

Middle East 03/05/2008 04:00:44
Looks like the tide is turning - at least in England.

'Old Labour' Red Ken Livingstone gets a good kicking - after shaking hands with an Imam who believes gays should be executed and our Ken went on to accuse some members of the British public of 'Islamophobia' BEFORE the London Underground bombings.

IDIOT!

Didn't our own Gerri Peev of The Scotsman suggest Alex Salmond should talk to Red Ken for advice!

BTW
'Popular' Ken Livingstone, who has 5 kids to three different women, is a protest friend of Alex Salmond.

CORRECT?
29

Alan Reid,

NZ 03/05/2008 04:30:53
W Smith:
Hey boy! still drinking your moonshine I see!
30

parks is colin nish,

cape town 03/05/2008 04:48:15
I think brown will go before the next general election ignoring all his mistakes and gaffes when you watch him he is false, his smile, mannerisms his jokes are all not him and it shows badly. He is a dour scotsman who got lucky at no 11 by living through good times and he is donald ducked now things have conspired against him. whatever you thought of Blair he had personality and timing, got out almost on his terms. What makes things worse for him is having that muppet Darling beside him, I have no doubt they have a far better grasp of economics than i do, but if other parties want to win an election 1000 adverts round the country with these two on it with 'do you want this for 5 more years, answers on a ballot paper please'
31

Macuistean,

Isle of Tiree 03/05/2008 05:30:19
There must be a lot of Labour MP's wondering how long they will stay in a job. I wonder how many of them cheered and waved their order papers when Gordon Brown finished his last budget speach? How many listened to it and voted to get rid of the 10% tax rate for the country's poor?
32

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 03/05/2008 05:35:41
The Labour party got greedy, corrupt, arrogant and had started regarding the people as vermin who were merely there as cash cows to milk at will for their idiotic and/or PC schemes.

John Major's government were just inept and kept jumping into bed with anything that had a heartbeat - this Labour government is just plain evil !!!

I hope the next government will see that the British people do not like to see waste and corruption in their local authorities, they do not like to see council tax bills soaring so government can make itself sooo large it is almost self perpetuating, they do not like to see front line services cut so middle management with made up jobs can keep their employ, they do not like being taxed by stealth and being ruled by speed (Tax) cameras and nazi wardens, they do not like being told they cannot bring up their children the way they would like and live in fear of prosecution should they offend some militant child protection league by raising their voice, They do not like manufactured congestion and soaring fuel prices, They do not like immigration being out of control and minority groups dictating policy for the majority ...

Wake up you weasels in the political class - your boss is angry! Return to small government and commonsense politics .... start working with the public interest at heart, cut out the waste, stop listening to minority groups who wish to impose their militant values on a majority. Start being proud of being Scottish and/or British and stand against anyone or anything that erodes the fabric of our nation.

There is not one politician who is not a poisoned dwarf or a sickeningly PC all things to all folk sort - In short there are no leaders, there is no direction, and this are no sides anymore.

How can democracy function when the only shop in town sells one brand ?

I just wonder who owns the shop ?

Still I'm sure I am not alone when I say am very pleased that Labour got a complete drubbing !!
33

missing home,

la verne 03/05/2008 05:44:00
redictrubte

what the heck does that mean?
Labour has lost the plot, it's about them staying in power, not about improving the lives of the people. Thank God people are finally wakening up to that fact
34

missing home,

la verne 03/05/2008 05:47:18
redictrubte

that was for No.1, Alfred E Neuman

incidentally, Alfred E Neuman, David Archuletta, never seen in the same room....
35

yockel,

03/05/2008 06:12:04
More pallatable for labour to blame the 10% tax band than admit the truth that enough voters have noticed labour are corrupt liers.
36

,

03/05/2008 06:36:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
37

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 03/05/2008 06:45:07
Do these words from 1776 strike a chord with anyone else ?

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Would not a bungling, corrupt, draconian, squandering Labour party inspire such poetry ?
38

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 03/05/2008 06:46:38
39 - Spot on .. !
39

steve 1511,

aberdeen 03/05/2008 06:49:48
a few clues for gordon on how it went wrong
lies on europe vote
lies on iraq
corrupt politicians taking bungs
screwing the poor
screwing pensions
failing to deal with murderers etc and giving them a long enough sentence,and letting them out early

in general failing in all aspects of society from police on health on schools on immigration you have squandered this countries wealth

labour are britians failures

40

Blarney,

Dundee 03/05/2008 06:53:56
TAXI!! TAXI FOR LABOUR!!
41

Blarney,

Glenrothes 03/05/2008 06:55:42
Q. Taxi for Labour?
A: Yeah that's right.
Q. Where to?
A. Wilderness please.
42

marcoo,

03/05/2008 07:35:22
England is a capitalist democracy. Germany is a socialist people's state. And it is not the case that we think England is the richest land on earth. There are lords and City men in England who are in fact the richest men on earth. The broad masses, however, see little of this wealth. We see in England an army of millions of impoverished, socially enslaved, and oppressed people. Child labor is still a matter of course there. They have only heard about social welfare programs. Parliament occasionally discusses social legislation. Nowhere else is there such terrible and horrifying inequality as in the English slums. Those with good breeding take no notice of it. Should anyone speak of it in public, the press, which serves plutocratic democracy, quickly brands him the worst kind of rascal. They do not hesitate to make major changes in the Constitution if they are necessary to preserve capitalist democracy.

Capitalism democracy suffers from every possible modern social ailment. The lords and City people can remain the richest people one earth only because they constantly maintain their wealth by exploiting their colonies and preserving unbelievable poverty in their own country.
43

marcoo,

03/05/2008 07:37:18
We do not beg for votes. We demand conviction, devotion, passion! A vote is only a tool for us as well as for you. We will march into the marble halls of parliament, bringing with us the revolutionary will of the broad masses from which we came, called by fate and forming fate. We do not want to join this pile of manure. We are coming to shovel it out.

Do not believe that parliament is our goal. We have shown the enemy our nature from the podiums of our mass meetings and in the enormous demonstrations of our brown army. We will show it as well in the leaden atmosphere of parliament.

We are coming neither as friends or neutrals. We come as enemies! As the wolf attacks the sheep, so come we.

You are not among your friends any longer! You will not enjoy having us among you!
44

Jimmy the Pie,

03/05/2008 07:41:53
You've shown no dignity since coming to office Comrade Broon. Show some now and resign, retire to your very well paid job provided by your friends in the PFI/PPP industry and draw your not insubstantial state pension.


Are you listening???
45

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 03/05/2008 07:51:00
Ann Begg, you fail to notice that, in fact, the people of Aberdeen KICKED OUT Labour because of their total incompetence. And the skeletons dropping out of every cupboard have the smell of Labour mismanagement about them. Much of the financial problems faced now were as the result of LABOUR'S tenure in office. Hear no evil...

Bye Gordo, shut the door behind you. Alex & Nicola all the way.


46

11+failed,

the pans 03/05/2008 08:06:06
Hang in there Gordon(and Wendy)take Labour down with you at the next election.The Tories did well in the English and Welsh local elections but the clear message was, anyone but Labour.
47

Blarney,

Arbroath 03/05/2008 08:12:16
Now what about about Ken Livingston for Labour Leader, that's an interesting thought.
48

Owain Glyndwr,

Caerdydd - Cardiff 03/05/2008 08:14:39
Thought our Scottish friends would like to know what really happened in Wales, seeing as the London (and Edinburgh) media has overlooked the excellent Plaid Cymru performance.

Plaid's seats now number circa 204, which is the highest in history (and up from 171, last time around) - not bad but not mentioned.

Plaid picked up 33 extra council seats across Wales. So when the BBC state 38 'other' gains throughout Wales & England, that is mostly PC but they cannot bring themselves to say it.

Plaid is the largest political party grouping in Gwynedd, Ceredigion, Ynys Mon (Anglesey), and Carmarthenshire.

Plaid gained extra seats in Cardiff, Caerphilly, Rhondda Cynon Taf, Wrexham, Torfaen, Newport, Neath Port Talbot, Conwy and Denbighshire

Due to the political make-up of the new councils Plaid could be in power in at least 7 councils, including Cardiff.

Yes, Plaid did lose control in Gwynedd by 3 seats (to independents and a local presure group of mostly Plaid orientated people), due to an isolated local issue, but those voters (if listened to and respected) will return to Plaid.

I apologise to those who are not interested, but all Scots should be aware of what is happenning in Wales as we are on the same political path.

Thanks for your time.

Ymlaen i Annibyniaeth - Forward to Independence


49

brownlie,

03/05/2008 08:24:45
55 Rules

Blindingly brilliant post.

Quite right to point out that those who believe in independence are naive "numpties".

This is an accusation that can never be levelled at the sensible and well-balanced electorate who are quite happy to vote for unionist parties who forget all about them until the next election is due.

However, I feel that it was a mistake to point out that the majority of the population did not vote for the SNP. The nats will point out that the majority of the population NEVER vote for the party that is in power.

Our much respected and loved UK government did not command the votes of anywhere near half the population.
50

Nikostratos,

03/05/2008 08:27:51
#59

Given the conservative and unionist party gained 256 seats and the nats only 33 seats with a total of 207.
Is hardly a tide towards independence more a dribble
51

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/05/2008 08:32:22
So Anne Begg is backing the doubling of the 10% income tax rate to 20% saying:

"I had people over 65 phoning my office saying 'why are you doubling my tax?' when in fact they will be better off as a result of the changes, as they will be taken out of the tax system altogether."

Now that's what I call listening.
52

Steve,

Bo'ness 03/05/2008 08:33:10
Well done Plaid.
And well done England for giving Gordon a shoeing.
Ha ha ha ha!!!!

Dead man walking
53

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/05/2008 08:40:48
Never underestimate the ability of Labour sheep to keep on voting these incompetents in to power. The alliance between its 'ma grandfaither voted Labour, so ah vote Labour' numpties and its carefully crafted clientele of welfare-dependants will ensure it scrapes by yet again. As for Bottler Broon, a psychotic megalomaniac like him will never go willingly; I hear the sound of Gotterdamerung playing in a Bunker under Number 10.
54

Nikostratos,

03/05/2008 08:51:21
Baa..baa....baaa..baaa vote labour..baa
55

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/05/2008 08:51:41
It is plain that the Labour party are still in denial. Despite all the nice words about reconnecting and learning lessons, you get the feeling that Labour are angry at the electorate for making a big issue of the abolition of the 10p income tax rate.

They don't seem to care about the effect it will have on the less well off nearly as much as the effect it will have on their own political future. Does anyone really believe that Brown would have performed his U-turn on the grounds of social justice alone. He was perfectly aware what he was doing.

His next problems will include the following:

the Lisbon Treaty
ID cards
£400 Vehicle Excise Duties on older cars
42 day Internment
Holding on to his own constituency seat in Scotland
etc,etc

Let's judge Brown by his actions on issues like these and see how much he is willing, not only to listen to the people, but also to act on their views.

It will never happen!
56

GM,

03/05/2008 08:52:17
@50

AM2 you passed comment in a thread yesterday about the poor showing of the nationalists in Wales -

any further comment now the votes are all in?
57

Red Tower,

Dunoon 03/05/2008 08:52:26
The thought of a 100+ Tory majority fills me with as much horror as the prospect of the present government staying in office.

Given the pathetic electoral system we have in this country which gives massive majorities to parties that can attract the support of only 15% of the total electorate we ,the voting public, will have to become a lot more sophisticated in how we use our votes.

The first thing we must realise is that governments with big majorities don't listen. They don't need to. As a result we must do everything in our power to minimise majorities. How do we do this ? We do it by forgetting about party loyalties. We do it by voting in constituency after constituency in a way that will best lower the votes of the major parties. This means not voting for the party you necesarily prefer but
by voting for the party that will inflict the most damage in terms to the Big Two.

Minority governments listen, they've got to.
58

GM,

03/05/2008 08:55:50
@66

and as for 'the rescue package' for those who lost out under the 10p tax change....

1 -
If it fully rescues everyone who is worse off, then why make the change in the first place

and

2 -
I believe the package will be a raft of extra benefits claimable by simply completing a 34 page form (in black pen only and keep within the boxes), and including ID such as a DNA Sample. Question 1 on the form will be multiple choice directing the applicant to 16 different sections within the document unless they were born in this country then question 1 does not apply please go to question 16(b).... (you get my drift?)
59

Owain Glyndwr,

03/05/2008 08:56:20
Re: Comment 61 - Nikostratos

Very bizarre comparison.

You are counting all the Tory gains in England & Wales against Plaid gains is Wales. Please compare like with like (i.e. votes/seats in Wales - I'll let you into a secret - Plaid didn't stand in England).

The Tories did do well in Wales on Thursday, but Plaid is the second largest political force with more councillors than the Tories and the Lib Dems.
60

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/05/2008 08:56:33
#6 Alf

You say that the majority of the Scottish population does not want SNP rule. That statement is true for each party in Scotland, just less so for the SNP.

What is your point?
61

mr angry,

ayrshire 03/05/2008 08:59:04
#59 Owain , well done and thanks for update, as ever the media , especially the BBC do not like to promote the local parties. You can ignore the clown at 61.
62

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/05/2008 09:02:47
#15 Hubert

He also did something just as damaging. That was to dramatically increase complexity and bureaucracy into everything he touched and by doing so he drove many small businesses to the wall.

This obssession with detail will be his ultimate downfall as we will witness when he comes up with a proposal to compensate the victims of the 10p income tax fiasco.
63

,

03/05/2008 09:03:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
64

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/05/2008 09:04:15
#68 Red Tower

A very good point. I think the SNP have done so surprisingly well since coming to power for exactly that reason.
65

,

03/05/2008 09:05:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
66

brownlie,

03/05/2008 09:08:43
61 Nikos

Little acorns and mighty oaks!!
67

Alfred E. Neuman,

03/05/2008 09:09:42
71 Connaughtboy

My point was that the SNP idiot Traquir formed a rule at post 3 that for a government to be legitimate in needed the majority of a populations vote.

He then conveniently forgot to apply his newly founded idiocy consistently to Scotland as well.

It would be an improvement to these boards if buffoons that vote SNP could develop some sense of consistency of position or sense.
68

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/05/2008 09:19:18
#69 GM

Sounds depressingly likely. Brown revels in complexity. Also, despite popular belief, he is still Chancellor of the Exchequer!
69

Richard Head,

03/05/2008 09:19:30
I think Gordon B would make an excellent funeral director.
70

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/05/2008 09:20:33
#70 Owain

You may well be wasting your time with characters like Niko and Alfred. Be warned!
71

Marian,

03/05/2008 09:21:02
Shed no tears for Brown of the Political Class as he is the architect of his own misfortune but watch as the Media Class now turn and destroy him!
72

Publius,

Girvan 03/05/2008 09:26:50
A few thoughts about the elections.
(1) The next big test is the Crewe & Nantwich by-election at the end of the month. If the Tories win this one, it will be curtains for Labour. It looks like the Tories could win. They did very well in in the local elections in this part of Cheshire.
(2) A big question is whether there will be a ripple effect in Scotland. Will the Tories see some modest revival? Will Scottish businessmen throw some money to the Tories in the expectation of favours from a future Tory UK government? (Remember, this is what they did for the SNP before the last Holyrood elections.) Alternatively, will more Scots vote SNP to boot kick out Labour in Sotland while the English vote Tory to kick out Labour in England?
(3) Lots of comments on the Board about the elections in Wales. It would be useful to know the number of actual votes cast for each party. Some rural parts of Wales are very sparsely populated, so the number of councillors returned for each party may be misleading. I do know that many independents In Wales are left of Labour, so adding their number to independents in England is very misleading.

P.S. Where I wrote 'throw' above, I originally wrote 't.ss'. The Scotsman's computer wouldn't process it.
73

quepasache,

Caracas 03/05/2008 09:31:12
Since Tony Blair mistakenly gave Scotland limited independence I have watched Scotland slowly taking charge of it's future.

Under the sure footed political skill of your FM and his advisors each and every one of the enemies of Scotland's independence has fallen by the wayside.

No one knows what will happen in the future, sure, but to date it just has been one success after another for the future of Scotland as an independent country again.

If this continues Scotland will have control of it's oil, fishing and whisky revenues and will be free from interference by it's large bankrupt neighbour.

Viva Escocia!

74

Ananurhing,

03/05/2008 09:35:29
55# Rules.
"Of course, only very naive (ie numpty) persons believe that independence is a guarantee of heaven-on-earth"

Is that you personally abusing everyone who believes in the normality of independence in a democratic state?
75

brownlie,

03/05/2008 09:41:37
79 Rules

Interesting that you should say the Scottish Nationalist are British Traitors.

By definition surely traitors are those who betray the peoples' trust. For example, people trusted the Labour party to protect the poor and the vulnerable and this they manifestly failed to do. Regretfully I would suggest that that was traitorous.

Another definition of a traitor would be some-one who committed treason. Try as I might I cannot see how a party committed to the welfare of Scots can be regarded as such.

Perhaps you can enlighten us as to what precise acts are traitorous under either of those definitions.
76

Publius,

London 03/05/2008 09:45:45
#85 quepasache

You may be in Caracas but your native language is English. No educated Sapnish speaker would put three market trader's apostrophes in a short note.
77

Ananurhing,

03/05/2008 09:45:48
I'm looking forward to when Red Ken turns on Brown. They hate each other, and I'm sure Ken will blame Brown for his defeat.

Boris for Mayor? The panto season has started early this year, has it not? You really couldn't make this up. Wait till he turns his massive intellect on the Scots subsidy junkies (sic).
78

JimC,

Kilmarnock 03/05/2008 09:54:55
KATY CLARK, LABOUR MP FOR AYRSHIRE NORTH AND ARRAN
(Quote) We need to invest in a massive programme of council-house building. We have got to go back to basics and deliver for our people. In my view, we need a tax system – following on from what happened in the 10p tax issue – which lifts thousands on low incomes out of tax."We need to refocus, with a significant increase in child benefit, the minimum wage and the state pension.

O Dear, so that's your idea of listening is it, let's buy back our core support yet all of Nu Labours recent policy is about private home building and as Darling said, "we will support home owners during the crunch to ensure their homes are not repossessed". This is a blatant attempt to protect public services, Labours breeding ground for corruption and waste on a grand scale. If social rents and council tax were not so high the minimum wage would not need a massive raise. If we stopped paying directors on councils huge wages simply to call in folks like Midwinter to do their job for them we could save a fortune.Its time we looked at the public sector, cut back on the slack and job duplication to lower the burden on the poor within our society.
79

brownlie,

03/05/2008 10:12:47
92 Rules

It may come as a complete surprise to you that the SNP in their quest to let Scotland flourish have no obligations to the rest of Britain.

To even attempt to interfere with how the rest of the Uk is run would be seen, quite rightly, as extremely arrogant and disrepectful to England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Arrogance and lack of respect is much better illustrated by our unionist policies.
80

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 10:13:41
59. Well done Plaid! The reports yesterday were misleading, suggesting that Plaid had lost alot of seats. Good to see the reverse is true.
81

bluehead,

edinburgh 03/05/2008 10:15:27
listening to the excuses for the demolition of the labour goverment at the local elections and london
mayorship,the one thing they all had in common was that they all squawked like demented parrots waiting to be pushed of their perches
brown and his pile should go now,before this once great country gets even worse
82

Hubert Farnsworth,

03/05/2008 10:20:15
#79 Rulesbutnotrulers - "Traditionally each section of Britain largely governed itself and that situation is best recaptured by Federalism."

As our resident expert on the time at the fringes of pre-history, perhaps you could enlighten us by expanding on this.

1) Tell us the name of and location of our Federal Parliament.

2) Explain the demarcation lines between the Federal and Sate governments.

3) What did our flag look like.

4) What was the common language we all spoke.

5) Did we compete at the Olympics as a single team.

6) How does the first part of your statement reconcile it's self with the conclusion.
83

Truely English,

03/05/2008 10:30:22
The Tories had great results in England and Wales on Thursday and it is now time to start thinking how they will start progressing in Scotland as well.

I see Plaid Cymru has made small gains in the Principality, which will come to very little in the long run, as Wales like Scotland are culturally British and linguitically English. We are all the one people that is Celtic according to recent DNA samplying.
It has given me lots of pleasure to read just how strong Scottish people are in regard to the English language at all levels of society.

Long live both our Queen and Great Britain.
84

westcider,

Isle of Lewis 03/05/2008 10:35:47
#59 Owain Glyndwr.
Thanks Owain for that. Heartening to know that our Welsh brothers are keeping the faith.
Saor Alba
85

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 10:41:36
From the Herald today :

The Scottish National Party is marking the first anniversary of its election to power today, as it hits 45% in an opinion poll - its highest-ever rating and a stunning 14 points ahead of Labour.

86

Queen D,

Glasgow 03/05/2008 10:45:05
Owain,thanks for the information, keep it coming as we are fed distortions and lies by the media it is up to the people to get the truth out.
I often read the BBC Wales and the Northern Ireland piece and the political blog just to find out what they say is going on in your neck of the woods.
I did post a hearty congratulations to the Welsh Rugby team on the poor womans blog!
Well done to PC!
87

MacMerrynoon,

Torino 03/05/2008 10:45:11
Boris in London, Berlusconi in Italy, Sarkozy in France, Putin in Russia, Bush in the States: humankind urgently needs the discovery of a planet with a more intelligent form of life.
88

Hubert Farnsworth,

03/05/2008 10:49:47
#59 Owain Glyndwr, - "Thought our Scottish friends would like to know what really happened in Wales, seeing as the London (and Edinburgh) media has overlooked the excellent Plaid Cymru performance."

What the London and pseudo-Scottish media tell us about Wales is approximately the cube root of
Jack Sh!t.

Strange that! us being part of the same big happy all encompassing Union. In fact prior to BBC Wales' recent ventures into Network programming, the last thing we heard of your distant and mysterious land on TV was the exploits of Twoom Sion Catti in the series Hawkmoor back in the 70's.

Perhaps the collapse of the English Pound against the Euro will encourage more direct contact between our two peoples this summer.
89

somerferg,

Perth 03/05/2008 10:49:52

#97 - quick pass me the sick bag!

#99 - the best news I have read for some time :)
90

Hubert Farnsworth,

03/05/2008 10:54:55
To anyone taking my advice at #102.

Please stop off at #97 and give Truely English a slap for me.
91

brownlie,

03/05/2008 10:56:53
97 Truly

Us Scots are strong enough in the English Language to query your use of the word "linguitically"???

Perhaps you could tell us why the "British" Royal Family - God Bless them, indeed - changed their name? Perhaps they are not, heaven forbid, truly English!
92

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 11:04:53
101 Macmeerynoon-good comment. Modern politics is essentially like a branch of showbiz. In the order you listed them-clown,crook,womanizer,despot,moron. Now there is some of all them in most of us-I dont cast stones or mean to moralize but the people who lead us need to be of greater substance. How to get there? Sadly I think-mission impossible. Ironically and I say this as a Unionist for life,Alex Salmond seems to be a man of substance and by happy accident,one of charisma. No wonder he is riding high in the polls. He has an ally from heaven in Gordon Brown and NuLabour. Poor gordon-partly a victim of bad timing economy wise,leader of a stale party and whilst being of more substance than you give him credit,sadly lacking in the necessary showbiz pizzaz. The way forward from my perspective is a stronger Scottish Parliament within a restructured federal UK. Dont write the Union off to soon gringos!
ps Though not a party man if I had to chose I am prob Tory lite. Having said that I think Boris is a dangerous clown. I think leaving aside all of the politics that Ken Livingstone is a much nicer human being and in many respects think he made a good London Mayor. Wat u tink?
93

Hubert Farnsworth,

03/05/2008 11:10:40
#105 brownlie

I have just researched history of the name(s) of the British royal familly...Battenberg Cake will never again touch my lips!
94

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 11:11:48
99 Ayrshire Scot-bet you are grinning like the proverbial Cheshire-no Ayrshire Cat!.Alex is ok but the fact that SNP are a "stunning 14 points ahead of Labour" aint no big deal. Even the Rutland Lefthanded Barrow Rpairers Party would be 14 points ahed of Labour! :)

ps what must Gordon do? Resign-his position is irrepairable.
95

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 11:15:26
105 Brownlie-no not truly English,nor truly Scots,German,Russian,Greek,Austrian,Danish,Welsh....
But then again Aemon de Valera wasnt truly Irish no?
96

brownlie,

03/05/2008 11:26:02
111 Geoff

I have heard of a politician of that name but, in my ignorance, no Irish king. I don't regard myself as British, but then again, I am not a privileged-ridden parasite.
97

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 11:27:58
110. Geoff - indeed, I think Brown will be shown the door the by his own party in a few months, Wendy Alexander too probably.
98

The Answer,

Glasgow 03/05/2008 11:30:27
How many votes did "the fat one" collect last may ?

I note Boris was elected on 1,043,761 votes.


99

Angus Ogg,

03/05/2008 11:30:57
#10 Alfred E.,

You accuseTranquir of......

"pathetic and ill-informed rants"

This isn't really doing your side of a debate any favours.

With all due respect, if you were to meet Traquir face to face, I suspect you would be a lot more polite and measured?

As one who is very much undecided on Union or Independence, I am interested to read the posts on here and other sites that have some reason and quality about them.

Perhaps, Alfred E., if you were to raise the quality of your debate, you might help win an argument?

If you learn only one thing from the past 24 hours, that should be that political parties don't win elections, so much as government's lose them. The Conservatives cannot claim to have won as much as New labour need to accept more of a blame that they have lost.

Just as Gordon Brown is trying to work out why he lost so very badly, perhaps you might care for some self-examination as to why you are losing your argument?

Before you post, please understand that I am not a Nationalist. I am very much uncomfortable seeing Britain broken up as it is a great nation. However, the positive message that the Nationalists are making, and the forensic way in which Alex Salmond is executing that message, with clear and evident leadership is attracting many undecided voters, and that my friend is what will make the Union continue, or Independence happen. Not rampant an intemperate views from the far extreme end of a polorised debate.
100

shivago8,

livingston 03/05/2008 11:31:37
You have robbed us stupid,everything that moves you have taxed.
They say you ran a stable economy,sure did,you stole all our money to do it in
Fly Fifer,we all hope and pray that Fife does not allow you back
We all hope and pray that Scotland that you have run down continously does not allow you back into the country.
You are a disgrace
101

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 11:35:06
12 brownlie-dont be coy now old chap-I am sure you get the analogy. Was robert the bruce a Scot and did not the Scots come originally from Ireland?Some people like to paint the Mountbattens as jackbooted Germans to mirror their dislike of the royal family-i have no prob with peoples likes/dislikes of the Brit Royals but I would call them true brits -they have much brit blood inasmuch as that means anything-it certainly has no basis in science. So be a little kinder -the SNP supporter Mohamed Patel is a Scot is he not?
102

getinnnn,

Scotland 03/05/2008 11:36:50
The majority of people in Scotland now want independence- as the unpubliished results of the Scotsman pole must have showed.
103

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 11:42:50
114. I believe Jackie Baillie polled around 10,000 votes.
104

Owain Glyndwr,

03/05/2008 11:45:38
Apologies, I was slightly inaccurate with the results. Plaid did better that I had first posted!!

The final number of local government seats (all councils contested) in Wales is:

344 Labour (lowest for 40 years)
207 Plaid (highest ever)
173 Tories
162 Lib Dems

There are also 378 Independents.

Good poll for the SNP today.

I'll bow out on that note.
105

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 11:45:47
115 Angus Ogg-a nice post and I am "much of your opinion"! These forums mean different things to different people. Some posters I think just like to let off steam like barking dogs either side of a locked gate-'let me at em!' style- until the gate is open and tails drop between legs! For others they are forums for some lite comment but reasoned debate also. I really have learned a lot from nearly two years in this exciting theatre. Esp as an older'dude'-the internet is space age stuff. I have also wondered whether in general our comments would persuade any one to jump ship or are opinions too entrenched. Itoo would be desperately sad to see the break up of Great britain-effevtively leaving me a stateless person, but maybe the world will change and we and those of our era will have to take our place in the Great Recycle Bin! I truly believe that a middle way can and should be found that gives scotland a new identity but preserves the best of the old.
106

Truely English,

03/05/2008 11:48:47
117
We are all British whether you put down Scot or Scottish or whatever. Since, we all share the things that make us British like the great English language and its Culture at whatever level of society. (Take that away then it would be a different matter.

Our way of life is the same and this we share with the other great English speaking countries throughout the World in many and varied organisations.

Indeed, it is plain to see that Scottish people have helped to master-mind the rise of our common language and culture over many centuries both at home and throughout the World through Empire, Industry and Religion.
107

getinnnn,

Scotland 03/05/2008 11:49:22
The "best of the Old" is Scotland
108

,

03/05/2008 11:51:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
109

Matt there,

somewhere 03/05/2008 11:55:15
"GORDON Brown is today under intense pressure to work out how to return Labour to winning ways after presiding over the party's worst local election results in 40 years"

Errr, resign? That might work...
110

getinnnn,

Scotland 03/05/2008 11:58:16
|I wish all the Nations around Me well; and all to share in My dearest wish for My Own Nation:- INDEPENDENCE.
111

brownlie,

03/05/2008 12:09:38
117 Geoff

I believe, like most Scots, that Scotland is a welcoming and inclusive society where Mr Patel is welcome - whether he supports the SNP or any other political party of his choice.

I do object, however, to the glorification of individuals who make no beneficial contribution to Scotland but are kept in luxury in their numerous castles whilst being subsidised by the poorest members of our society.
112

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 12:12:31
127. Bit harsh on George FOulkes. He needed that £45,000 to cover the "expense" of staying overnight in a house he owns.
113

dave evans,

Manchester 03/05/2008 12:13:57
The Scottish people must be looking down aghast at the local election results in England. Increasingly England and Scotland are taking divergent paths politically. Who can blame Scotland for wanting no part of the narrow selfish, suburban Tory political outlook that is taking hold again in England? Who could blame them for voting for independence at the next opportunity. I wish I was a Scot.
114

Queen D,

Glasgow 03/05/2008 12:17:36
Dave the Mancunian , we'll adopt you if you like!
115

,

03/05/2008 12:18:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
116

Jambo-ree,

03/05/2008 12:21:11
There needs to be a split reintroduced between local and national politics. Really don't see that kicking an otherwise competent local authority into touch for the sins of national issues such as the 10p tax band or, worse, international issues such as the effect of the credit crunch is a sensible way to go. Get the national party factor back out of the town halls for the sake of local democracy.
117

Publius,

Girvan 03/05/2008 12:37:31
#129 Dave Evans

Hello Dave
You need to think a bit more about the social composition of the electorate and the ideology of the parties. The last 10 years have seen a massive increase in public sector employment and a decrease in the private sector.
Broadly speaking in England the new public sector employees are Labour (or, if white collar, LibDem). Your post clearly reflects your ideology - private bad, public good - and it quite likely reflects the kind of job you do as well.
The revival of the Tories in the south east, west midlands and the outer suburbs of the northern cities reflects something of the resentment that private sector workers feel about high taxation. The absence of Tories in northern cities (Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Newcastle) reflects the fact that middle class private sector workers have largely abandoned these cities leaving them to the public sector and students.
In Scotland the pattern is different. The SNP has become the preferred party of many private sector workers (and several big businessmen). The SNP still espouses a left of centre ideology but its support is pulling it rightwards. This aggravates the conflict beween the SNP and Labour. A Labour/Plaid Cymru forms the Welsh Government. A Labour/SNP coalition is inconceivable.
It remains to be seen whether what remains of private sector workers in Scotland will be attracted by a revived Tory Party. My guess is that some will - enough to give the Scottish Tories a handful of seats in the next UK general election.
118

Nikostratos,

03/05/2008 12:42:39
#120

Unionist seats =679

Nationalist seats =207

nor a tide more a dribble towards.........plaid


#99 Ayrshire Scot™

Good poll for the snp...........must be true
Bad poll for the snp............must be untrue(Unionist conspiracy)

Tell you what Ayrshire you just let know us what poll we should believe..eh save a lot of mucking about.


" support level, for the Holyrood constituency vote, is not matched by Scots' intentions for the next Westminster election where Labour's support is holding up - at 39%, it is eight points ahead of the SNP."

true or not ayrshire............please let me know
119

dave evans,

manchester 03/05/2008 13:03:36
Actually I am ex-British Airways crew..there is a large number of us in England who have no affinity with the narrow Conservative mindset of many suburban English people, who can see no further and read no further, than the politics and philosophy of the Daily Mail, London Evening Standard, Daily Telegraph etc and are seduced by the propoganda therein, irrespective of tax policies.
120

Booster,

03/05/2008 13:04:10
What a telling example of the democratic failure we have in the west when elections are often more about reacting against an incumbent government than the desire to vote in a new one in their own right.
Our media are largely to blame, exaggerating failures and personalizing blame to ridiculous levels.

But I have come to dislike Brown's cack handed treatment of certain key issues recently and his apparent detachment from (historically) core labour principals and sentiment.
If he can't or won't make that reconnection then he deserves all the criticism that's coming his way.
121

Hubert Farnsworth,

03/05/2008 13:08:18
#132 Jambo-ree,

The trouble with that idea is the electorate loose the opportunity to give the corrupt/self-seeking and or incompetent rulers of the local fiefdom a kicking.

Only their local representative(if he is part of the administration) and for all we know, he could be one of the good guys.

Democracy just isn't fair and we are trying to ram it down the throats of the savagaes...they would be better off with the shiney beads and mirrors.

Rule Britannia, God Bless America and a Partridge in a Pear Tree.
122

Hubert Farnsworth,

03/05/2008 13:10:27
#137

How's Bleep doing...havn't seen him in years.
123

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 13:16:25
127 brownlie-dont want to labour the point but it isnt only the poorest members of society that subsidise heads of state. Also look at post 101-all those guys didnt inherit position-they got voted in! Presidents putin,Sarkozy etc aint shy of Castles and caviar! Im all for a more egalitarian society but if you give a poor man 10 000 quid he may spend it on an education or it may go on booze. Sometimes poverty is endemic! I wouldnt begrudge Patel his Scottishness any more than you should deny Phil and Liz their Britishness-that was the point I was trying to make.
124

keystone,

Eau Claire WI. USA 03/05/2008 13:17:46
Brown and Labor lost because the native people of the U.K. have had enough of their country being sacrificed at the altar of Political Correctness, by Labor politicians who pander to every minority to assure their vote goes Labor. The majority of Labor politicians are little more than a gang of fools who believe they are near royalty, and above doing the work of the honest native British citizen. Hopefully this is the first step of the native British citizen in taking back their great country from those who wish to give it away, and the right first step was the sacking of much of Labor. Much work still needs to be done, but the longest journey starts with the first step.
125

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 13:22:23
129 dave evans-you could always move north!
126

Hubert Farnsworth,

03/05/2008 13:25:34
Yankee right-winger quoting Mao?

Confusious he says Yes!

Or was that the man from Del Monte?
127

Native,

03/05/2008 13:35:32
#141

It's Labour - Labour - got it?

128

Thistledhu,

Fife 03/05/2008 13:35:47
sad fact is someone who is sopposed to be the most succsesfull chancelor is also going to be rememberd as being a unelected one term disaster as prime minister.

A conservative goverment is now allmost a certainty
a long series of disputes between holyrood and westminster would quickly follow.

the call for independance would become deafening
129

Ananurhing,

03/05/2008 13:37:45
140# Geoff

I think Brownlie was referring to the small handful of people, many of them non doms, who own most of the Scottish land mass. Their holdings are mostly economically inactive, but attract huge subsidies based on the size of their holdings. Which means they basically contribute nothing to the economy or society.
130

Mike555,

03/05/2008 13:40:38
Think Gordon Broon and his hanger ons were the only ones not seeing the writing was on the wall this week.

How can anyone tax the lowest earning people in the country and expect to get away with it?

How can anyone rob the pensions pots of millions of hard working people and expect to get away with it?

How can anyone cry crocodile tears over the huge increases seen every week in diesel and petrol when they get an unfair 70% tax on every overpriced litre purchased?

Gordon go now and live off your bloated and unpaid for pension and take foolish and useless Wendy with you.
131

dave evans,

manchester 03/05/2008 13:41:43
Inagine a Tory government in Westminster and the SNP in Edinburgh, a scenario only a couple of years away?
Alex Salmond, being clever, will hold off on a referendum until then, with a much greater chance of a 'yes' to independence vote.
132

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 13:43:31
145 thistledhu-funnily enough I think Cameron might get on better with Alex tahn GB. Also David is a sensitive,caring individual(:)) who will treat Scotland with more respect and tact!
133

Hubert Farnsworth,

03/05/2008 13:48:56
#144

No, it is;

Labor = Labour = Crook = Tory = Anti-Scottish

In any language you care to mention
134

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 13:50:24
Also thistledu-all the more reason for an English Parliament along with increased powers for the 4 Parliaments in a Federal system. Then Westminster would control British only portfolios such as Defence,Foreign Affairs and other matters of agreed mutual interest. Then it wouldnt matter if the Tories controlled Westminster.
146 Ananhuring-ta for ur comment. I agree that land reform is not only needed in South africa!
135

Usconbuts,

Glasgow 03/05/2008 13:56:49
122 "Truely" (sic) English

We are all British ... Empire Industry and Religion

Are you for real? Religion is still with us, but thank God Empire's snuffed it. My city, Glasgow, is described as "post-industrial", so industry has turned up its toes too.

"master-mind the rise of our common language"? Tell that to the Welsh and the Gaels whose languages were hammered almost into oblivion under your Empire.

At least I won't accuse you of master-minding, or even mastering, the English language.
136

quepasache,

Caracan sapnish speaker 03/05/2008 14:00:41

as posted by 'carmichael' in the Herald at 9.05 today. I am sure he wont mind me broadcasting this excellent post.

'A canny commentator described Gordon Brown as a political equivalent of the Wizard in the Wizard of Oz. Casting a huge shadow, silhouette for all to see and in such seeming power and vastness leaving otherwise sensible people quaking in their boots and, yet, then, when the curtain is drawn back all that there is, and always was, a little, tiny figure. A great optical illusion and no more, no less. This seems to be a good little analogy. We can see from Brown's few months in power that he has simply lurched from one disaster to the next not knowing whether to look backwards or forwards or sideways. Being punch-drunk after only a few months in office is not the sign of a political heavyweight. Yet, is it Brown alone who has pulled off the great illusion by appearing great and vast when simply the true stature is small and compromising?

Scottish Labour ruled the roost in Scotland for a long 50 years and celebrated in Scotland's poverty while projecting an image of being the only answer for the Scottish people. They made Scotland out to be a country where Scotland's interest was Labour's interests and people in Scotland, at that time, looking at this great image put their trust in Labour. All this was until last year when people got just a wee peek behind Labour's erected curtain and saw that, maybe, just maybe, Scottish Labour were an illusion. Labour weren't all powerful, maybe, and Labour weren't the answer, maybe. Of course, at the time of the election a little peek was all it was and still we weren't too sure and there was much hand-wringing and conscience searching had afterwards. The thing that gave us that little peek, the thing that led many to notice the slight tear in the curtain - surely, it was Brown's interference. Then, of course, Brown's protege, Wendy Alexander, was put in place as Scottish leader of Holyrood and the curtain fell d
137

pehman,

sussex 03/05/2008 14:01:16


58 Blarney,Arbroath 03/05/2008 08:12:16
Now what about about Ken Livingston for Labour Leader, that's an interesting thought.

Tell you what Blarney, with red Ken left without a job, he'll waste no time in laying the blame at maggie's door. Stand by for fire works

138

quepasache,

03/05/2008 14:02:04
post from Carmichael contd.

/ Then, of course, Brown's protege, Wendy Alexander, was put in place as Scottish leader of Holyrood and the curtain fell down around Scottish Labour's feet.

If Labour, surely, were this great colossus who could command Scotland's will then to where has this greatness dissipated now they are in opposition. Almost as if, vanishing into the ether, spinning off into the atmosphere, as easily lost as it was found, can be seen Labour's standing in Scotland. Looking at Scottish Labour now, without the curtain of authority and governance to allow such a grand illusion to continue, people in Scotland are seeing a Labour party so incompetent and small that even FMQ's has become a weekly ordeal. So, as people in Scotland watch, not only Brown being revealed as nothing more than an illusion so, too, are we watching the whole Scottish Labour project being shown to be nothing more than a cunning illusion. The thing that worries most of us in Scotland currently, isn't so much whether Scottish Labour are now a West and Central Scotland pressure group clinging onto competence, but whether this is what they have been all along. Behind that curtain, perhaps, anything could have been projected outward.
139

R Corbett,

#152 03/05/2008 14:05:12
-
Tell you what there should be a ban on people talking Garlic on the telly. It's just stupid, nobody understands it anyway apart from about six people in the western isles who A) dont have a telly and b) speak english anyway.
-
140

R Corbett,

edinburgh 03/05/2008 14:05:56
sorry that was to #152

-

slainte!
141

Native,

03/05/2008 14:09:05
#157

The people in the Western Isles do have televisions.

It's just the licence they don't bother with!
142

whitegold,

Shire 03/05/2008 14:18:30
#159 wrote:

"The people in the Western Isles do have televisions.

It's just the licence they don't bother with!"

LOL! Everyone should follow this excellent example.
143

Ananurhing,

03/05/2008 14:37:17
151# Geoff

Land reform? Strangely enough we've already had that.
Not that anyone would notice.
144

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 03/05/2008 14:52:24
We should understand that the English voted for the Tories not because they believe in the Tories, but because they had no meaningful alternative. This is why the Welsh voted for Plaid Cymru instead. There is now a power vacuum that could be filled by the Lib Dems if they were prepared to change their policies a little. I refuse to believe that the Tories truly represent the policies most English people support. As has been said so many times before by so many others, if the Tories do win the next general election inside England, it will end the Union. What hasn't been said, is that if Labour (by a miracle) wins, it will also end the Union. The only (and forlorn) hope of Unionists is a viable alternative party, perhaps based on the Lib Dems, perhaps founded by dissident Labour and Tory factions, perhaps incorporating republicanism, and perhaps all of these. Without such a party the Union, which even now is treading the steps of the scaffold, will go to its doom.
145

Truely English,

03/05/2008 14:54:56
152
Scots like Adam Smith, Robert Louis Stevenson, Daniel Defoe, David Livingstone, Sir Walter Scott, Thomas Chambers (Dictionaries)Thomas Glover and many, many more, helped to promote and spread the English language and culture Worldwide and this the Scots should be very proud about.
All this work and more helped to create a seamless cultural environment for Britain to promote English values both inside and outside Britain to the general populations up to this very day.
The work they did for our shared culture is there for everyone to see and feel deep pride for their efforts.

I am always amused to see how lowly Scottish people treat the Gaelic and Welsh languages and cultures and opt for English instead. Well maybe it is not so strange after all as both the Scots and English form different facets of English identity.
146

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 03/05/2008 14:56:14
#159 Duthchasach: Teilebhisean? De tha sin?!
147

brownlie,

03/05/2008 14:56:56
140 Geoff

I am aware that it is not just the poorest in society who subsidise the rich but the fact is that they do - as do you and I.

My fore-bears were forcibly moved from a fertile island in the Hebrides (Pabbay) and dumped on a barren rocky island (Scalpay) so that the land-lords could populate the islands with sheep.

Houses were demolished and burnt to the ground leaving the inhabitants with just the clothes they were standing in and having to survive on shell-fish and anything else they could catch.

Who burnt their homes and deprived them of their livelihood? It was, in fact, the British Army carrying out the will of the rich and powerful. Does that ring any bells. These people, whose life was a struggle to survive at the best of times, probably did not feel very British.

I hope, then, that you'll excuse me if I don't feel very British either and I hope you'll forgive me if I don't doff my cap and tug my forelock whenever I see those in our society who live in extravagant luxury but are only too happy to leech off the rest of society.

I do not have a problems with anyone who wants to feel British but I have always regarded myself as a Scot and will continue to do so irrespective of what party is in power.
148

Truely English,

03/05/2008 15:00:17
157 R CORBETT

Just as mentioned earlier.
The Scots love to denigrate anything that is not English.
Incidentally, has Dave from Barra moved back to England yet knowing how much he holds the locals and their culture in contempt.
149

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 03/05/2008 15:01:23
#163 Truly English: "Well maybe it is not so strange after all as both the Scots and English form different facets of English identity." Well then, do Indian, Australian, Amerusan, Canadian, South African and other "Englishes" also form a part of English identity?
If so, is the term "English identity" meaningful?
What do you mean by calling yourself "Truly English"? Anything or nothing at all?
150

Alfred E. Neuman,

03/05/2008 15:03:02
165 Brownlie

"Doff your cap to the rich" Take off "T' off your cap" surely. That's why they are toffs, who ever circulated that rumour about toffee should be shot.

Can't really comment on the rest of your post as it is whimsical crap.
151

,

03/05/2008 15:08:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
152

brownlie,

03/05/2008 15:09:30
157 Corbett

If ignorance is bliss then you must be extremely happy.
153

brownlie,

03/05/2008 15:11:57
168 Alfred

Congratulations on dodging the white coats again.

If facts are crap then you must be extremely constipated.
154

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 03/05/2008 15:12:19
#168 Alfred E. Neuman: "Whimsical crap"? As a matter of interest, where do you live and what history did you learn at school? I have a suspicion that you may be AmerUSAn or even Mexican. If a Scot, then our education system is in even worse a mess than I feared!
155

Truely English,

03/05/2008 15:20:50
167
Scottish people have a very long history of promoting the English language in Scotland and throughout the Empire and many still do so as Teachers of English as a Second language.
Some Scottish friends from Inverness and Aberdeen are in the Far East in China and Hong Kong at this very time promoting English while others are in Japan.

The Scots say they are different from the English/British but how can this be the case.

Of course, the Canadians other than the French Canadians are part of the English identity.

156

Truely English,

03/05/2008 15:28:12
165
We live in the present and not the past, so what happened is now history and as so many Scots are wanting to move forward, maybe it is now time to fully embrace English values and culture and just move on.

I am sure you will feel much better if you stop looking back and see the opportunities that Britain provides for us all.
157

megz,

03/05/2008 15:30:45
GORDON Brown is today under intense pressure to work out how to return Labour to winning ways after presiding over the party's worst local election results in 40 years.

best thing he could do is resign.
158

GM,

03/05/2008 15:41:31
@175

Truely,

the art of trolling a forum is, some would say, a fine one. Knowing how to sucker responses and start a flame war in such a subtle fashion that folks don't even recognise the troll is an art-form mastered by very few.

Today, on this thread, its pretty clear that your own score on the 'trollometer' (10 being best, 1 being worst) is pretty low - perhaps a 2 if I was being kind.

Try to be more subtle.
159

R Corbett,

Rob Corbett, Edinburgh 03/05/2008 15:43:30
#170

GARLIC IS A DEAD LANGUAGE, PEOPLE ONLY SPEAK IT FOR A HOBBY. IT DOES NOT HAVE A PLACE ON BROADCAST MEDIA.

this has nothing to do with ignorance, matey.
160

R Corbett,

03/05/2008 15:46:17
#170 CHOOSHTRA BOOSHTRA SOMHAIRLE COMBINE HARVESTER INTERNET
161

Tonto43,

Midlothian 03/05/2008 15:48:48
Mr Brown
You are the weakest link
Goodbye
162

MacMerrynoon,

Torino 03/05/2008 15:58:03
#108
Dear Geoff, I am italian, and I have a romantic vision of your beautiful Scotland (Bonnie Prince Charlie, Robert Louis Stevenson...) so I think that the idea of Scotland as a nation is historically and culturally tenable. The Unionist idea reminds me of the Victorian empire and dickensian times (please note that t's not a political opinion, it's just the reflection of my readings). Nice to chat with you.
163

R Corbett,

embra 03/05/2008 16:02:02
Brownlie - you make Scalpay sound like an indian reservation. Scalpum scalpum scalpay.
164

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 03/05/2008 16:05:11
#175 Truly English: As other posters can testify, I was a Unionist until a couple of months ago, albeit a very lonely republican unionist who saw the only hope of keeping us together as being the movement of government depts and Parliament to the central cities of Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, and Hull, so as to offset the great Black Hole of the south-east, which has been gobbling our population, and to refocus the minds of MPs on the north, including Scotland. I am the first to admit to the incredible oppportunities that England offers to us, especially to our young people. However, I have also seen Scotland cynically used as a testbed for the poll tax, our oil used to rebuild a U.K. that was on its knees, yet one industry after another has closed in Scotland while the south-east has boomed, our population has plummeted, our housing and schools have been falling apart and there is enormous deprivation, we have been dragged into foreign military adventures that we as Scots want no part of, we have nuclear weapons stationed on our soil that we did not ask for, or support. And yes, we do have our own history and culture, of which we are proud, and which we do not wish to see drown under a barrage of AmerUSAnisation. Despite our falling population we do fear the divisive influence of growing ethnic minorities: it simply doesn't work, however much wishful thinking and however painful it is to recognise that fact. We want to control our own immigration, before uncontrolled immigration debases our national culture and we will develop all the usual problems associated with a multinational population. We want a strong, unified meritocracy, not some weak, disparate society that barely holds together because it has been strangled by affirmative action and legal clauses specifying 100% representivity. That's not for us. For all these reasons and more, Alba must be independent, although I recognise that we are already free.
165

R Corbett,

Edinburgh 03/05/2008 16:06:21
#177 - teuchter wind up needs to be subtle? dang.

right. i'll try and be subtle. Padraig Phost and Donnie Murdo are in a language that i dont speak, so why the feck is it on the telly?

I know some garlic speakers are upset about what happened to their ancestors. I'm still upset that my great great (times 20) grandfather got like eaten by a woolly mammoth, but you have to move on from these things.
166

Griffe,

03/05/2008 16:06:33
Brown is the biggest disaster to hit England since 1066.
167

Richardinho,

03/05/2008 16:16:46
England says 'no' to Scottish rule.
it's time Scotland said 'no' to English rule.
168

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 03/05/2008 16:18:56
#178 Rob Corbett: Visit the Western Isles. Gaidhlig is not dead, and due to primary schools the number of speakers is increasing. This is especially true of Irish, which is very closely related to Scots Gaelic. More and more Irish speakers are sending their children to Irish-medium schools. If the worst comes to the worst the Western Isles will secede from Scotland and join Eire politically. But Gaidhlig will live. I suggest that you learn what the geographic names mean, and how to pronounce them. If you do, you will be surprised how Gaidhlig will start to connect you to your own country, assuming it is Scotland/Alba!
169

Phil the Flooter,

Perthshire 03/05/2008 16:20:38
They still dont get it and keep convincing themselves that it is ONLY the 10 percent Tax that is p...ng people off

The very fact that people like Harriet Harperson and Co continue to deny any other problems exist shows they do ANYTHING but listen.

Nothing to do with the thuggery, political correctness gone barmey, the Police failing to do the job they are paid for, Education, health care, cameras leering at you on every street corner, Nazi Council Gauleiters issuing penalties to little housewives or elderly people because they are too chickenshite yellow to target the real villains in society.

'I will begin to listen and lead...' Yawnnnnnn..

Too late McBroon.

Now feck off.
170

R Corbett,

Edinburgh 03/05/2008 16:30:48
#187 - if the Western Isles seceding from the UK will stem the flow of Garlic language telly, then so be it, but come on, nobody speaks it as their sole language unless they're some kind of kilty extremist. It's a dead language - just because people speak it doesn't mean it's alive. there's plenty latin speakers throughout the world. Loads more than there are garlics.
My aim is not to stop people talking funny, it's to stop people talking funny on the telly and radio in areas where polish speakers probably outnumber gralic speakers by about 100 to one
171

Conan the Librarian™,

03/05/2008 16:45:48
189
Ronnie

Garlic? bIjatlh 'e' yImev!yIDoghQo'
172

A Reasonable Voice,

03/05/2008 16:48:33
I see a great deal of people reacting to the Tory gains from yesterday, and not a great deal of people thinking. Yes, while it is true that Scotland and the Conservative party have not had the greatest relationship, things have changed since Thatcher and Major were in power, partly because of Blair and Brown.

If Cameron were to become prime minister tomorrow, he would have to tread much more carefully when dealing with those outside of England than previous Tories. A Labour-Plaid Cymru coalition serves in the Welsh Assembly, a DUP-Sinn Fein government in Northern Ireland, and the SNP minority government in Scotland. It the Conservatives are so content on preserving the Union, they will have to be more innovative than ever before. Rather than ignoring Scotland as Brown has done, he will have to engage Scotland.

Is Cameron up to it? I don't think he's that stupid so as to do what Brown has done. And again, let's not react to things--but think them through as rational people. Readers from all over the world read through the Scotsman, and they are relying on contributors to think with their brains!
173

Masterpiece,

03/05/2008 16:56:55
177
It seems that R Corbett likes to wind up teuchters, but why?

Is it that he is so uneducated in his own language, Gaelic that he has not only a chip on his shoulder but an granite block?
Or is he so superior, that being anything other than a Scot with a colonial hangover, is unthinkable to him.

Many people in Scotland do not understand either the Gaelic language, its history or the culture and they are proud of this fact. How big an ignoramus can one be?

I learned to speak Gaelic over a two year period and it is the best thing I ever did, as it provides me with so many answers as to how Scootish people are different from English people and it helps me to throw off the Scottish chip I carried big time. Seems strange to me but few if any Gaelic speakers I meet run around with these that so many Scots have.

It is good to hear a second Gaelic-medium primary school will be opening on the Southside of Glasgow either this year or next due to the large number of parents wishing to enrol their children in the Gaelic medium school that is available in the city centre presently.

Finally, Mr or Mrs Truely English, those who speak Gaelic in Scotland and participate in the Gaelic culture on a daily basis would find what you say rather amusing to say the least, as they are involved and interested in other things.
It has been an honour to know Gaelic speakers and can only hope their language goes from strength to strengh due to my small efforts and the help of others.

One thing I would like to find is a Gaelic community which is completely and free from the English culture and language. Any suggestions.

Alba gu Brath
174

Guga II,

Rockall 03/05/2008 17:01:22
#59 Owain Glyndwr.

Thank you for the information about what actually happened in Wales. It is good to hear that Plaid Cymru did so well; the media here and in England managed to bury that fact. And, of course, we had the usual garbage from AM Squared and others of his ilk.

As for Maggie Broon and his comment that he and his party are now going to re-connect with the voters, and "listen", that is laughable. There is no way that the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party will listen. They will continue to steal nearly 60% of people's income with their direct, indirect and stealth taxes. They will continue to hammer the motorists with, among other things, massive taxes on fuel. They will continue to bring in things like their Stalinist, totalitarian ID card and database. They will continue to steal as much as they can from the taxpayer with their outrageous and dodgy expenses claims. They will continue to allow hordes of illegal immigrants to come and go as they please, and so on, ad nauseum.

I feel quite sorry for the English as they only seem to have the choice of the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party, the sleazy Tories and the numpty Whigs to vote for. Someone down there should start an English independence party.

As for Boris Johnson, like Red Ken, he will be an asset for the SNP as he will, no doubt, continue claiming that London subsidises Scotland; again, just as Red Ken did. We all know of course, that it is the other way around.
175

Carmichael, A.,

Scotland 03/05/2008 17:15:35
Hi quepasache,

Thanks indeed for the compliment and, of course, I don't mind at all. Quite happy, in fact. I was just reading through the Scotsman and surprised to see my post from the Herald and just registered to say thanks and hope others enjoyed it too.

All the Best
176

dave evans,

manchester 03/05/2008 17:19:56
We've only got two years to go, before at least 4 years of Tory rule from Westminster...suddenly it's back to 1979. The Scottish people are lucky to be in a political situation where they will get the chance to vote never to have Tory rule again i.e. a referendum. If only we could have the same in Northern England.
177

John Jobling,

Melrose 03/05/2008 17:21:00
When are you people going to realise that the world does not revolve around that small country north of Carter Bar, with a population of less than 5 million, you merely prove the theory of "aggrieved self interest"
178

Guga II,

Rockall 03/05/2008 17:35:54
#195 You could always secede, and apply to become part of Scotland.
179

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 17:36:27
165 Brownlie-sorry to hear of your forebears'troubles!
181 MacMerrynoon-nice to chat to you too. Your view of Scotland as a nation is one that few would deny. I just happen to also believe that the four nations that make up the Union can preserve their individual identities in a greater british whole. As many have pointed out,we have much in common in history,language,culture,geography,institutions etc.. Others see Scotland better off out of the United Kingdom. I think though that all of us share a great pride in and love for our Scottish roots.
180

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 17:38:27
200 for the Union?
181

Guga II,

Rockall 03/05/2008 17:41:20
#199 is that the Union of South Africa?
182

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 17:46:19
197-Guga 11-thats a thought. But what if the south of England and wales not to forget the Ulster Scots also seceded and joined Scotland? Then we would have er what guga? :)
195 dave evans-David, didn't the North reject a referendum on a northern assembly? Also daffid,with a name like yours shouldnt u be heading back to Cymru?
183

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 17:49:00
201-no Guga, the National Union of Mineworkers! Viva comrade viva!
184

Guga II,

Rockall 03/05/2008 17:49:25
#198. "we have much in common in history,language,culture,geography,institutions"

You are either joking or deluded. History is it. You Unionists managed to bury and rewrite most of Scotland's history. Language, maybe now, but not always, and not completely. Culture, only if you count junk culture, otherwise Scottish culture is quite different from the English (how long have you been away from Scotland, or have you actually ever lived here?). Geography, well I suppose we are in close proximity, though the likes of the north of Scotland is closer to Norway than to England, and I don't think the Irish would think much of that argument. Institutions, who wants to live in an institution?

On the basis of your reasoning, you'll be wanting the septics, the Canadians, Australians, Irish etc. to re-apply for colonial status. Get real.
185

Guga II,

Rockall 03/05/2008 17:53:57
#202. The south of England? You are deluded, we wouldn't want them. As for the Welsh, why would they want to? They want to get out from under the English and reassert their sovereignty. The six counties belong to Ireland.
186

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 18:01:34
200 traquir-the question is a little loaded-like saying would you rather spend the night with Jessica simpson or your mother-in-law! Jokes aside in any country or region,you will have big minorities-often majorities who are opposed to the ruling party(Zim comes to mind-extreme example i know!) Remember the snp are a minority government and many in Scotland are opposed to their policies altho again I admit they have done well in their first year. My answer would be-neither. I think Scotland would be better off with an enhanced Holyrood Government within a federal UK.Also, even if the tories do win the next election,they are a very different party from that of Maggie Thatchers. Ask yourself if you would rather have Brown as PM than Cameron? In reality there is little to chose from the policies of the 3 large UK parties-the Libdems are probably closest to the SNP policy wise apart from one BIG item and apart from the Nuclear issue and a generally more liberal(geddit) policy on immigration and individual rights-hell Clegg and cameron even look and talk alike...I could go on
187

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 18:13:53
Guga-the six counties belong to Ireland-dont get me started! By that reasoning scotland'belongs' to Britain. The six counties may one day reunite with the irish republic but for now the majority-mostly Ulster Scots sent BACK to ireland- see themselves as a distinct province within the British union. By your reasoning Canada belongs to North america. As to the south of England etc joining Scotland I thought you would see my comment was tongue in cheek and also pick up on the irony of suggesting the north of england join Scotland in a ..er..Union! As for Wales-well Guga are they not fellow Celts?
188

Guga II,

Rockall 03/05/2008 18:26:54
#207. This is why I have my doubts about you. The Welsh are, indeed, fellow celts, as are the Irish. However, the Celtic people's unlike the English and their Germanic cousins, have never had any wish to invade, occupy and exploit other countries.

As for your foot in mouth comment that Scotland belongs to Britain, if you look at the history, the whole of Britain used to belong to the Celts before the Angles, Saxon, Jutes etc., i.e. the English, invaded and occupied that part which is now classed as England. I am happy enough to leave them there (anyway, the Germans definitely wouldn't have them back), I would just like Scotland, Wales and the whole of Ireland to be independent countries, without any interference from foreigners.
189

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 18:53:40
208 Guga 11-Its all good clean fun my friend. Many claim historical rights based on those of the "original inhabitants". I would suggest that this is thin ice stuff-many celts also lived in Northern europe and maybe became Saxons,Angles etc.. they are only names based in a history of peoples that moved to and fro and about whom much of our knowledge is based on guesswork(sorry that was an awkward sentence) The reality we must address is "what do modern scots want now". Time will answer this one. Talking of Celts I see the hoops had a good win today. My team(guess which) have some catching up to do!
209 Traquir-thank you for your kind words. Who knows how things will pan out. I see a report that the EU are suggesting European embassies to replace those of the member states so perhaps one Union will replace another. My hope is that the peoples of the UK can retain a kinship in a more equitable Union but ultimately it is for the Scottish people to make the necessary choices.
190

European Scot,

03/05/2008 18:58:12
206 Geoff

" I think Scotland would be better off with an enhanced Holyrood Government within a federal UK.Also, even if the tories do win the next election,they are a very different party from that of Maggie Thatchers."

Good evening Geoff !
Still pushing that Federalist idea ! Unfortunately it won't put Scotland in the United Nations, just the same old UK nameplate. and a spokesperson speaking on behalf of..... etc.
Why just settle for an 'enhanced Holyrood government', let's have the real thing.
At the next UK General Election, if every person of voting age in Scotland, put their cross against a Labour candidate, the Tories will win.
The only vote that will stop the Tories ruling over Scotland for another 5 or 10 years, is an SNP vote.
In an Independent Scotland, at every future Scottish Election, the people of Scotland would get the Government they voted for.
At present that is not the case.
It really doesn't matter what the latest version of the Tory party is like, the majority of people in Scotland don't want it. It's England that will vote the Tory party in, not Scotland.
That is just one of the fundamental flaws of this ' Union.'
Scotland will get stuck with an English choice, thoughts of Thatcher again..
Independence, and future Scottish only General Elections, will solve this little problem.
191

Scotish Exile,

03/05/2008 19:01:54
Brown got exactly what he deserved, a right good kicking, the guy is a disgrace.

Blair is nobody's fool, he got the hell out when he did for a reason, he knew what was coming and Brown couldn't see that and was desperate to get into No 10, well Brown my old son, may you suffer long and hard, becuase there's lots of us suffering becuase of you and your incompetent handling of the economy...prudence my ar8e!
192

Truely English,

03/05/2008 19:13:59
207
It is now clear from DNA testing that the vast majority of the English are also Celts, so we are the same people after all. What binds us even closer is the fact that we all speak English as well even the Orcadians and Shetlanders and not a Viking language.

Some Scottish friends from Inverness say that the best English spoken in Britain is to be found in parts of Edinburgh, Glasgow and most clearer of all in Inverness where they are very proud of their English heritage.

It is now time to forget about the history that divides us and concentrate on everything that unites us so well and makes everyone proud to be British.
193

,

03/05/2008 19:26:00
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194

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 19:26:50
212 AM2-evening my friend. Nice to hear from u-I was beginning to feel like the Last of the Mohicans!
211 European scot-howsit ES! As always,your reasoning is pretty flawless and there is not much I can really argue with other than to say i see things from a different perspective-simply that we are better together than apart! Cameron has stated publicly that he is an avowed Unionist(with a Scots father)If that is so then he will put an extra effort into improving the Tories standing in Scotland. I think that many Labour and Conservative voters in Scotland support/dont support their respective parties from an historical perspective. Perhaps a newly confident and modern scottish electorate will find the NuTories more attractive? Who knows. We can but watch from the sidelines!
195

,

03/05/2008 19:29:51
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196

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 19:31:21
216-Camerons father is Scots-Ian Donald Cameron aye!
197

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 19:34:18
218. Evening Geoff. I am munching on a Jaffa C as I type :-)
198

Masterpiece,

03/05/2008 19:40:13
214
While it may be the case that many people in both Scotland and England share the same DNA it still does not make us the one Nation.
I have found among many Gaelic speakers that they are particularly angry because of the utter distruction that was caused after the Battle of Culloden when some 30,000 people were killed by Butcher Cumberlands men and almost all were Gaelic speakers.
The Highlands and Islands are not an empty landscape through mis-management but by deliberate attempts to cause genocide among the Gaelic speakers which they did very successfully by clearance of people in whole areas.
For lots of people in Scotland and the rest of Britain it means nothing but among many Gaels this was a time of unspeakable brutality against not only men but women and children as well.
Many sayings such as history should be left behind or forgotten is not on offer as they witness the effects of these actions on a day to day basis in their communities.

So Mr or Mrs Truely English it is not as clear-cut for Gaelic speakers to be as wholly English as you think.
What is inexcusable though is the ignorance of their history perpetuated in Scotland by a bunch of ignorant ill-educated colonial wimps.
199

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 19:45:48
219 Ayrhire scot-Evening AS!I'm drooling! The biltong is in the post-express! Wrap them carefully!
200

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 19:50:16
214. Truly E - what is your point? What is this "recent DNA testing" you refer to? As all humans are 99.9% genetically identical, the whole world is one nation by your argument. Indeed, given a 97-98.5% genetic identity with chimpanzees, and a 60% sequence identity with some types of fruit, perhpas we should extend your definition of a nation to your vegetable patch as well, which I suspect is the source of some of your "thinking?
201

Geoff,

sa 03/05/2008 19:50:17
219 Ayrshire-for the record i havent had a Jaffa since i demolished a whole packet in a pavement cafe Glasgow last June!! Really sufferin!
202

dave evans,

Manchester 03/05/2008 19:56:47
It says something positive about the general intellect of the Scots that in most opinion polls the Tories score something like 10% of the vote. The Scots can see the Tories for what they are..smug, self-satisfied and only interested in lining their own pocket. If Scottish people eventually vote for independence then they will have at least won a certain liberation from what is a reactionary, unprogressive southern England centric political philosophy and outlook. Scotland must be given a chance to vote on independence, preferably when the Tories get into power in 2010, thereby increasing the likelihood of a positive result. If the Scottish people want this then good luck to them, I would wish them well. If I lived in Scotland I would be happily voting yes to independence from the rat-race that is England.
203

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 20:07:47
223. Geoff LOL. Did you snort them or mainline them?
204

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 20:09:34
226. AM2

I believe our friend from Manchester is not in fact a Scottish nationalist and is English.

Now what is the driver for your British nationalism?
205

dave evans,

Manchester 03/05/2008 20:12:28
AM2 I admire the fact that the vast majority of Scots see no attraction in voting for the Conservatives.
206

dave evans,

Manchester 03/05/2008 20:15:27
I am a Mancunian..but I admire the Scots quest for independence.
207

Native,

03/05/2008 20:26:44
#234

AM2 - It may be a surprise, but there are quite a few English persons who support Scotlands independance.........
208

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 20:31:22
234. AM2

tut tut. Do you really suspect I think in that way? You know i was not suggesting that English people cannot support the SNP and independence, as many do, and some are SNP MSPs and government ministers. I was making the point that he is English in relation to you trying to twist his words to suggest he said Scots were smarter than the English.
209

Native,

03/05/2008 20:33:01
Not many? how so - on what do you base that preposition?
210

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 20:34:04
231. AM2 - not much of one.
211

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 20:36:49
245. Even bad boys need love AM2.
212

brownlie,

03/05/2008 20:42:26
174 R. Corbett

We have just noticed your postings. We were all gathered round the village television/pc in our kilts whilst waiting for the Morris Dancing lessons from a gentleman called Boris.

We were waiting to watch the incredible adventures of those who live in a pub in the East End of London and others who live in a pub on a street which has commemorates a famous event to do with your royal family.

We are captivated by your wit and command of the English language worthy of Truely's beloved Shakespeare - we were in gaels of laughter and have voted you the comedian of the year.

Congratulations on England winning the recent Rugby World Cup, the Ashes and of course the last five Football World Cups.
As you have a close affinity with parts of each team we wondered who you support when Arsenal play Scunthorpe.

Fare thee weel, the TV Licence man from the BBC has been spotted.

PS How is Julian Clary? God save the Queen!



213

Native,

03/05/2008 20:46:42
#246

No not scary. I'm half Hebredian brought up in England, and a frequent visitor for many years. Might I suggest that what you elicit from your friends in Scotland may differ somewhat to their compatriots in England
214

brownlie,

03/05/2008 20:52:44
234 AM2

Good evening,

I hate to sound pedantic but I must take issue with your reasoning here. You say "He is of course a Scottish Nationalist. He supports the nationalist movement..."

I support the England Cricket team but that does not make me an England Cricketer or does it?
215

Native,

03/05/2008 20:55:39
#253
brownie - nope it doesn't - but if you are any good - the help would be appreciated!
216

Native,

03/05/2008 20:58:56
Most Scots that come to England seem do do so of their own volition. If you think otherwise - then feel free to repatriate half the Westmenster government!
217

,

03/05/2008 21:08:02
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218

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 21:08:08
259. Cheerio. Are you off to the Master and Kimba's party? I wsn't invited, but have a grand time anyway.
219

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 21:09:02
260. Trite hyperbole please.

I am graphing seasonal lemon production and will post the results shortly, that should be trite and hyperbolic
220

brownlie,

03/05/2008 21:13:04
259 AM2

Good luck with the sheep. HM said she was really wild this afternoon.
221

Conan the Librarian™,

03/05/2008 21:17:18
259
Away to dress up AM2?
http://xs217.xs.to/xs217/07284/CaptainHyperbole!.jpg
222

,

03/05/2008 21:25:03
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223

Conan the Librarian™,

03/05/2008 21:28:31
265
Was that a three question poll?

224

Conan the Librarian™,

03/05/2008 21:33:59
271
Heh

Difference between that guy and a Range Rover at Twickenham?

The Range Rover has the pr!cks on the inside.
225

Nikostratos,

03/05/2008 21:41:26
see you Cybernats wiped the floor with AM2........again.......laughingly,ha ha ha
226

Conan the Librarian™,

03/05/2008 21:42:33
274
Aye.
After the pub.

http://www.suvtalks.com/cars/range-rover-sport-arden-peg.jpg
227

Conan the Librarian™,

03/05/2008 21:47:24
275
Niko old mate, will you stop abusing elipses!
And there is a bloody space after a comma!
Another thing, a sentence begins with a capital letter.

Apart from that; How are you doing? Enjoying your party's catastrophic defeat in the polls?
228

,

03/05/2008 21:52:34
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229

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 21:54:15
277. Hey! Niko-dude is 187 years old, ellipses are the only thing he can safely abuse! Leave him be, he is in mourning - the people have spoken, and Unionists hate that type of thing.
230

Conan the Librarian™,

03/05/2008 21:56:27
278
Me too.Honest.
231

morris,

edinburgh 03/05/2008 21:58:31
Whilst I have not seen the Welsh results in detail,it should be obvious to all that Plaid have advanced from a relatively low base,and are well placed to advance further now that Welsh voters realise what most Scots will realise.LABOUR CANNOT WIN>

Who do we vote for as next best choice? In Westminster seats ,Plaid could easily start to match the Labour Party in votes cast soon,whilst the seats are still divided between Labour and a few Tories and maybe a Lib Dem,with Plaid second and retaining only those seats which they currently hold.The SNP were in this position not that many years ago I recall, with 41 second places ! No prizes under first past the post of course. The position of the SNP is different with every seat in Scotland likely to produce an SNP challenge at least,and seats will definitely fall to them.The question is how many Scots have got enough brains to work out LABOUR are a wasted vote in Scotland now.They CANNOT WIN.

I suspect a form of PR at Westminster could soon be a realistic Labour policy ,if the SNP continue their progress but it becomes a possibilty for the wrong reasons.(To save their own Unionist butts).

Labour think that policy can be adapted to suit the terrain as required but have failed to recognise one variable factor.Just because their supporters were too stupid to realise that they were being conned for forty years,it does not mean they will always vote Labour. Some of them must have some brains and realise this party is over!

232

Conan the Librarian™,

03/05/2008 22:03:57
279
Well said Ayrshire. Did you SPOT my deliberate mistake?
233

,

03/05/2008 22:07:20
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234

Nikostratos,

03/05/2008 22:10:40
#277

Have decided to go down with the labour ship(badly holed and taking in lots of water)glug.glug glug

Old habits die hard may as well follow them to the bitter end.........its davy jones locker for me

Although i don't understand how a powerful 'unionist' party at Westminster not dependent on Scottish MPs is somehow beneficial to the snp.

Dave is never going to sit down with her Majesty and explain he has just agreed to end the United Kingdom.
And in consequence is the Prime minster of a smaller nation. than Gordon. Tony or even John and Margaret when they were in office



A few crumbs of the comfort

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/05/03/do0302.xml
What we now know, almost for certain, after this week's results, is that, if Labour wins the next general election - which, according to all previous statistics, it could easily do - it will be nothing to do with Gordon.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/steve-richards/steve-richards-a-tidal-wave-is-swe
During the 2005 election, polls suggested that Brown, more than Blair, was Labour's vote- winner, again an astonishing achievement for a long-serving Labour chancellor. Such a successful politician does not become a disastrous one overnight. I do not join the chorus who write him off.

#278

No of course not thats just silly
235

,

03/05/2008 22:11:51
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236

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 22:12:08
282. I did, but did not want to draw Niko's senescent and failing 200 year old faculties toward it, as he has enough trouble positioning the magnifying glass in front of the screen to read posts while maintaining his balance perched on his commode seat.
237

Conan the Librarian™,

03/05/2008 22:12:17
283
As pished as I? Comparisons of drink taken?
After work, lunch with wife in place I shall never-ever go back to.
Two glasses red.And half of hers.
Dogs walked.Pint in local.Another pint in local.
Feed dogs.No alcohol for them.
Wife off to work.
Belgian beer in house...

Now you Meths...
238

,

03/05/2008 22:16:02
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239

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 22:16:19
283. Well said Meths. We have feared as much for the last 12 months :-)
240

Conan the Librarian™,

03/05/2008 22:17:57
285
Och Niko, it won't be down to Dave.

It will be down to Alex.
241

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 22:18:39
288. My name is Meths the Librarian....
242

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 22:21:29
294. Och Meths, was only jesting. (we KNEW your were pished) You can't trust someone who doesn't drink. A well balanced man has a drink in each hand, and other oldies.

243

Conan the Librarian™,

03/05/2008 22:21:42
291
Fair enough Meths.
But I've mixed mine.(tongue out).
244

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 22:22:52
295. Glass is a fluid. Highland Mighty's window licking is now seen in a new light, as an attempt to address his severe constipation by fluid consumption.
245

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 22:23:25
299. Don't curtsey - makes your man boobs quiver :-)
246

Conan the Librarian™,

03/05/2008 22:25:27
And what are you drinking tonight Ayrshire?The sweet draught of freedom?
Or Belgian beer?
247

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 22:27:21
306. Cheeky wee white, C the L.

305. Can be a bit dry Meths.
248

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 22:27:44
301-302. hehehehehehe
249

,

03/05/2008 22:28:51
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250

Conan the Librarian™,

03/05/2008 22:29:59
307
re 305
Back to the application of alcohol.

It's how ugly people procreate after all.

251

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 22:31:02
309. Is there going to be dancer action in the plunge pool?
252

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 22:32:08
312. Only up to a point... consider poor Highland M and Alfred E.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFc3OWZWyxM
253

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 22:37:49
311. Who is he? Has he got greasy skin?
254

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 22:38:47
316. I thought Granny Ganga lived next door? Bet she has good parties.
255

Conan the Librarian™,

03/05/2008 22:44:23
316
See. Wonderful drunken cross talk.Ye canny whack it.
256

Conan the Librarian™,

03/05/2008 22:45:06
318
Night Meths
257

Conan the Librarian™,

03/05/2008 22:48:06
314
Have you a clue about Meths "EMPTIED"...?

Or is it nineteen drinks do you think?
258

Truely English,

03/05/2008 22:49:03
Good to see the only language and culture that matters in Scotland is English after all the Scots have been so successful at promoting it around the World.

Having English means that you are ahead of the game in every country throughout the World. Please don't be so stupid as to allow anyone in Scotland to think that economic development can be achieved without this most precious gift you have been given called English.

Long may the English language and culture reign supreme alongside our Majesty Queen Elizabeth.
259

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 22:49:18
321. His plunge pool I think.
260

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 22:50:34
322. Reign supreme over who, old boring troll-type crocus? Thought you were "going out"?
261

,

03/05/2008 22:51:03
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262

Conan the Librarian™,

03/05/2008 22:55:15
322
Truely.Here's an old English phrase for you;

And in his ers they crepten everychon.

Now, which organ is being discussed?

And is it the one you speak out?
263

,

03/05/2008 23:03:23
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264

Truely English,

03/05/2008 23:06:35
326
The Scots and the Welsh will find out soon just how vital the English language is to us all in keeping Britain as one entity and how important this will be in the European political arena.
English must remain in the premier position in order for Britain to keep its status in Europe.

Long live our Soverign Queen Elizabeth.
265

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 23:07:07
328. He said he was "going out". I hope it is better than his coming out coz his ladslads profile is a disgrace.
266

Conan the Librarian™,

03/05/2008 23:08:40
328
Fair enough Del.Sledgehammer and nut.Literally.
267

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 23:10:20
329. You should so some aerobics or summat Truly, your profile is a disgrace

http://www.ladslads.com/userview/profiles/default.aspx?nickname=Truly1945
268

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 03/05/2008 23:11:10
322 Truely Englishhh

The UK is not the centre of the world. If we were the only country using the English language schoolkids across the world would be learning Spanish or Mandarin as their second language.

No I'm afraid the good ol' USA is why so many people across the world learn to speak English. The UK is merely a sideshow and you have delusions of grandeur.
269

Siggy2y,

Newcastle 04/05/2008 00:29:11
Mandelson claims he's a Gay Gordon this must come from the dunblane cover up.

Blair's Gay Mafia is coming to an end at last.

Not before time I might add
270

John PM,

Edinburgh 04/05/2008 01:03:24
Who cares if Labour win or lose? They are indistinguishable from the Tories anyway.
271

,

04/05/2008 03:41:39
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272

Daniel Salaman,

Nicosia Cyprus 04/05/2008 11:02:29
Whats left to say is all done.GORDON BROWN MUST GO. I do not thing that the P.M has taken the bother to take a good look at the SCOTISH NEWS ,he has become the joke of the nation ,whats is following next? The tears of THE CLOWN, I SAY NO MORE MERCY-MOODY BROWN YOU ARE OUT FOR GOOD.STOP HIM NOW..................
273

Alfred E. Neuman,

04/05/2008 13:07:34
Gordon Brown gave a very poor interview this morning.

"We must listen and find out what people are thinking in the future" / "Here is what the people are thinking"

Unless you are an idiot (ie vote SNP) you are just going to get angry when you see those contrary statements from a politician.

Wendy Alexander really is a lap-dog she was "on message" with the same garbage at lunch-time.

"We must listen" / "Here is what i presume people would like to say".

No surprise neither knew what the people really are thinking. And that is we can't take any more tax and waste.
274

Alfred E. Neuman,

04/05/2008 13:09:38
"We must listen!" / "No, wait!... Let me finish! I'm talking"

"We must listen" / "The people didn't vote against us because they dislike aspects of our policy, what they really meant to say was that a loaf of bread costs 20p more and, erm, because American bankers have lost there bonuses."
275

Alfred E. Neuman,

04/05/2008 13:11:20
"We must listen" / "The people are telling us a litre of petrol is too expensive and that is because of the dredit crunch."

I am also appauled at the journalists hacks, when they (Labour) bring up the cost of fuel as a defence the stupid hacks never pin them down on the fuel duty. They could do something (if they wanted to listen and act)
276

Stewart C.,

Stranraer 05/05/2008 12:07:18
After yesterday's TV interviews:

"Gordon Brown Proves how out of Touch with Reality he Really is"

Read it here - http://www.thelabourparty.org/brown_election_excuses.htm

277

Venachar,

05/05/2008 13:41:00
342 "MAD" Alfred

Do you ever sleep?
278

club kleip,

Sydney 04/06/2008 22:10:02
I like Gordon Brown

 

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